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Where's 10'000 come from? Isn't Dante just 1000.

pm713 wrote:
Where's 10'000 come from? Isn't Dante just 1000.

many of the CSM and cypher+the fallen are 10,000. As to how much the warp affects them isn't really known. It might be possible. Even if it was, 10,000 isnt that long compared to forever.

Cypher is usually outside the warp and to my knowledge he has no Chaos boons.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Cypher is usually outside the warp and to my knowledge he has no Chaos boons.

Cypher may not even be a space marine. The Dark Angels had many humans within their ranks that were altered to be as close to Astartes as possible, also I think Luther is still alive.

Luther is alive, yes.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Cypher is usually outside the warp and to my knowledge he has no Chaos boons.

Cypher may not even be a space marine. The Dark Angels had many humans within their ranks that were altered to be as close to Astartes as possible, also I think Luther is still alive.

I guess Cypher might not actually even be human. He could be like a phoneix lord or something, just whoever wears the armor becomes him.

Who knows, I was just pointing out there are some very old folks out there.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
The ten thousand year old Salamander says hello, along with all of this kinsmen that kicked it over the millennia on the same planet.

Technically he starved/atrophied to death. With supplies he might have survived at least physically.

He was still very much alive, just that he stayed guard for so long and well, atrophied away. He did indeed age, as all Astartes do, but they can at least survive for around ten thousand years or so. Plus when in hibernation, Astartes seem to generate infinite energy.

He did suffer from starvation and he did atrophy. He was also trapped in the spaceship with no supplies and eventually his body fused with his armor. He only died when the commander of the Salamanders force had his geneseed harvested.

You know, because the orks were coming and beating up orks is far more important than learning from the only person to have served with your Primarch and could possibly help lead you to him and a new golden age.

In short, I never read another book from that series.

In the novel "Salamander" They find a Salamander from heresey who has been chilling out on a throne for the last 10,000 years. With barely any food.

 Psienesis wrote:
No. Plenty of evidence in both BL and Codices that Space Marines are not biologically immortal.

Is there any actual fluff where a marine outright dies due to advanced age? Like a marine with Alzheimers or a marine whose special organs or regular organs have begun to fail?

 Exergy wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Where's 10'000 come from? Isn't Dante just 1000.

many of the CSM and cypher+the fallen are 10,000. As to how much the warp affects them isn't really known. It might be possible. Even if it was, 10,000 isnt that long compared to forever.

I should have specified. I was asking about Dante specifically.

 Idolator wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
The ten thousand year old Salamander says hello, along with all of this kinsmen that kicked it over the millennia on the same planet.

Technically he starved/atrophied to death. With supplies he might have survived at least physically.

He was still very much alive, just that he stayed guard for so long and well, atrophied away. He did indeed age, as all Astartes do, but they can at least survive for around ten thousand years or so. Plus when in hibernation, Astartes seem to generate infinite energy.

He did suffer from starvation and he did atrophy. He was also trapped in the spaceship with no supplies and eventually his body fused with his armor. He only died when the commander of the Salamanders force had his geneseed harvested.

You know, because the orks were coming and beating up orks is far more important than learning from the only person to have served with your Primarch and could possibly help lead you to him and a new golden age.

In short, I never read another book from that series.

Or you just don't understand Salamanders. They had to mount a defense or battle-brothers were going to die, not to mention that the Salamanders needed to fend off the Orks in order to protect the civilians. Y'know, those people the Salamanders will throw themselves in front of a plasma gun for.

 Exergy wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Where's 10'000 come from? Isn't Dante just 1000.

many of the CSM and cypher+the fallen are 10,000. As to how much the warp affects them isn't really known. It might be possible. Even if it was, 10,000 isnt that long compared to forever.

Biological immortality isn't really immortality. True Immortality cannot occur period.
A marine is going to die of some disease eventually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Where's 10'000 come from? Isn't Dante just 1000.

many of the CSM and cypher+the fallen are 10,000. As to how much the warp affects them isn't really known. It might be possible. Even if it was, 10,000 isnt that long compared to forever.

I should have specified. I was asking about Dante specifically.

Dante isn't special other than skin deep. Literally.
The only difference is his skin doesn't appear to age.
It's clear that space marines muscles don't weaken with age normally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Buttons wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
No. Plenty of evidence in both BL and Codices that Space Marines are not biologically immortal.

Is there any actual fluff where a marine outright dies due to advanced age? Like a marine with Alzheimers or a marine whose special organs or regular organs have begun to fail?

None what so ever.

Buttons wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
No. Plenty of evidence in both BL and Codices that Space Marines are not biologically immortal.

Is there any actual fluff where a marine outright dies due to advanced age? Like a marine with Alzheimers or a marine whose special organs or regular organs have begun to fail?

Died? Other than the Sallie that crumbled to dust after waking up, no. There is, however, plenty of reference to Librarians and other Space Marines reaching ages and levels of infirmity that prevent them from taking an active role in combat operations, and so they "retire" to positions of planning, training, logistics, and rear-echelon command.

There's also the fact that we're told, flat out, that Space Marines have extended life-spans ("three or four times that of a regular human") and that Blood Angels live even longer than that. The fact that we're told that Space Marines *have* a life-span, as well as being told that the Blood Angels live longer than any other Space Marine is enough to categorically state that Space Marines are *not* immortal in any way.

The 10K year old Salamander is surely an anomaly? The guy's been hibernating for as long as he can, effectively spending most of those years in suspended animation. It's impressive but not much different from how dreadnoughts are kept in stasis between battles.

 Psienesis wrote:

Buttons wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
No. Plenty of evidence in both BL and Codices that Space Marines are not biologically immortal.

Is there any actual fluff where a marine outright dies due to advanced age? Like a marine with Alzheimers or a marine whose special organs or regular organs have begun to fail?

Died? Other than the Sallie that crumbled to dust after waking up, no. There is, however, plenty of reference to Librarians and other Space Marines reaching ages and levels of infirmity that prevent them from taking an active role in combat operations, and so they "retire" to positions of planning, training, logistics, and rear-echelon command.

There's also the fact that we're told, flat out, that Space Marines have extended life-spans ("three or four times that of a regular human") and that Blood Angels live even longer than that. The fact that we're told that Space Marines *have* a life-span, as well as being told that the Blood Angels live longer than any other Space Marine is enough to categorically state that Space Marines are *not* immortal in any way.

And then Luther and Cypher take a big dump on that notion.

Neeeeeext

Cypher is an obvious exception, but:
1) "Cypher" is not a name of a person, is the name of a title of office in the 30k Dark Angels. He was in charge of "keeping secrets and traditions". If "a Cypher" dies or retires then another individual takes the title.
2) Chaos. If he is a single person, he has been in and out of the Warp this 10000 years. Perhaps it was 100 years for him. Perhaps it was 100.000 years for him. Perhaps the Chaos Gods keep resurrecting him. Perhaps is not even mortal anymore. Perhaps... well, Chaos.

Luther is not even an Astartes. He is a human touched by Chaos. How long humans can live in the setting? If they are touched by chaos (or similar), nobody knows.


If you take out Chaos, the background says what Psienesis wrote: "Space Marines have extended life-spans, three or four times that of a regular human, and Blood Angels live even longer than that.". Keep in mind that humans live far longer in the setting too, thanks to something called "Juvenat Processes", that we are not told exactly what they are.

I don't particularly care enough to take a side in the argument but I do recall Arik Taranis, a thunder warrior from the Outcast Dead, trying to replicate astartes physiology to increase his life span. I believe there's roughly a thousand years between the unification wars of terra and the heresy so he was already quite old. I don't recall exactly but I think he was trying to get an astartes geneseed to work with his own body to stop/slow his aging.

 da001 wrote:
Cypher is an obvious exception, but:
1) "Cypher" is not a name of a person, is the name of a title of office in the 30k Dark Angels. He was in charge of "keeping secrets and traditions". If "a Cypher" dies or retires then another individual takes the title.
2) Chaos. If he is a single person, he has been in and out of the Warp this 10000 years. Perhaps it was 100 years for him. Perhaps it was 100.000 years for him. Perhaps the Chaos Gods keep resurrecting him. Perhaps is not even mortal anymore. Perhaps... well, Chaos.

Luther is not even an Astartes. He is a human touched by Chaos. How long humans can live in the setting? If they are touched by chaos (or similar), nobody knows.


If you take out Chaos, the background says what Psienesis wrote: "Space Marines have extended life-spans, three or four times that of a regular human, and Blood Angels live even longer than that.". Keep in mind that humans live far longer in the setting too, thanks to something called "Juvenat Processes", that we are not told exactly what they are.

And then you still have the ten thousand year old Salamander and the ten thousand Dark Angel, although I haven't a clue who that was.

 Wyzilla wrote:
(...)
And then you still have the ten thousand year old Salamander and the ten thousand Dark Angel, although I haven't a clue who that was.

Still, it does not affect the final result.

The OP is asking "are Space Marines biologically immortal?" He is not asking for a specific marine, he is asking if all marines, just by being marines, are immortal. We are told they are not. They live far longer than humans (who in turn live far longer than nowadays humans), and Blood Angels are reknown to last longer. But they get old and retire, and eventually die.

A question for you: Are normal humans biologically immortal in the setting?
In my opinion, they are not. Sure, Luther and Kor Phaeron are still around. And Luther has been out of the Eye for 10000 years. He is that old. Chaos has this effect on living things, which is just fitting, since the Warp is the Afterlife. And then you have Perpetuals.

That doesn´t mean humans are immortal. They are just exceptions. Special snowflakes.
The same reasoning applies to marines.

This is not a "contradiction" in the fluff. All marines and humans age and die, except for a few exceptions, and these exceptions are always explained... or left as a mystery

 da001 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
(...)
And then you still have the ten thousand year old Salamander and the ten thousand Dark Angel, although I haven't a clue who that was.

Still, it does not affect the final result.

The OP is asking "are Space Marines biologically immortal?" He is not asking for a specific marine, he is asking if all marines, just by being marines, are immortal. We are told they are not. They live far longer than humans (who in turn live far longer than nowadays humans), and Blood Angels are reknown to last longer. But they get old and retire, and eventually die.

A question for you: Are normal humans biologically immortal in the setting?
In my opinion, they are not. Sure, Luther and Kor Phaeron are still around. And Luther has been out of the Eye for 10000 years. He is that old. Chaos has this effect on living things, which is just fitting, since the Warp is the Afterlife. And then you have Perpetuals.

That doesn´t mean humans are immortal. They are just exceptions. Special snowflakes.
The same reasoning applies to marines.

This is not a "contradiction" in the fluff. All marines and humans age and die, except for a few exceptions, and these exceptions are always explained... or left as a mystery

Except all things simply point to the Salamander being immortal by his gene seed, which was even pointed out in the book by the Astartes being surprised, but admitting they've never seen one die of old age. No chaos, no warp taint, just sat in a room for several millennia with barely any food without moving (which alone would kill most people if they simply sat still for even just a couple years). Plus coupled with all Astartes being technically biologically immortal due to the ability to enter an infinite period of time in a comatose state in which they seem to produce free energy.

Normal humans aren't biologically immortal. The longest lived people I can recall are all AdMech (and quite probably insane, based on 3rd edition fluff, or virtual robots, like the one Coggie in Dark Apostle.) One Inquisitor in the old Inquisitor RPG stuff (Thorian) lived nearly 900 years, I think, but that was an anomaly, and living past a couple hundred years seems unusual (and even then restricted to those with wealth and/or connections.)

But Juvenat/rejuv stuff isn't really the same as what gives Space Marines their extended lifespans (or immortality), and that's kinda it. We don't really know enough about Space Marine physiology and stuff from the fluff to make definite conclusions about whether they are or aren't immortal. And what we do know is largely speculative or open to debate.

And to add another wrinkle to the debate: It can even be that Space Marines are 'technically' unaging (in the sense they never suffer from the physical and mental ill effects of old age no matter how long they live), but that does not mean such 'immortality' is guaranteed to be forever, for everyone. Only a small percentage of humanity can actually become Space Marines and an even smaller percentage actually survive the implantation process, and it stands to reason that even then, the degree to which the body 'assimilates' the implants can vary (which may in fact be why some Marines are basically generic whilst others become truly extraordinary in a physical, mental, or even psychic sense.) I remember Talos having that rejection thing in Void Stalker, as I recall, and we know Space Marines still need to be monitored throughout their lives by Apothecaries even AFTER being implanted (not to mention that gene seed can undergo mutation for various reasons, which is why they are so big on testing it for purity) So basically you have alot of 'ifs' but not alot of certanties, and again I suspect that's deliberate,

Gravius from Salamanders isn't a good example for 'immortality' either, given that a.) many of the Salamanders in that same novel expressed shock at a Space Marine living that long, and b.) they flat out acknowledged that they don't know how/why he lasted that long - it could be the warp or it could have been his biology. And even in the caes of the latter there's a number of factors - was he constantly awake, in suspended animation, or what? There's also the fact he was basically a shadow of his former self by that time (he did not seem remotely capable of fighting.) so even if Space Marines could theoretically live 10,000 years that still can't be used as proof of immortality, because Gravius is clearly not the same as he was thousands of years ago. It would in fact probably indicate that Space Marines do face a period of decline at some point in that long lifespan, but because so many of them die before then none ever reaches it (which again is also mentioned in Salamander.)

I don't know of any Dark Angels living 10,000 years, apart from the Fallen (warp stuff) or the one from Barrington J Bayley's Eye of Terror novel (Assuming that novel is in fact not a heretic tome and we havne't been told.. most novels of that era have pretty much been cast out like Farseer and Space Marine, after all..) and not only was that Space Marine inactive for all ten thousand years (sus-an state, in addition to being in space being attributed to his long term survival) there is also the fact the warp is still involved (at multiple points he is described as being guided/drawn to the Eye of Terror, and if there is active influences pushing him there there's no way to say how that messed with timeframes relative to him, personally.) so in any event its still not a useful barometer (since we only know he can live 10,000 years, and basically cryogenically frozen in space at that.)

 Wyzilla wrote:
(...)
Except all things simply point to the Salamander being immortal by his gene seed, which was even pointed out in the book by the Astartes being surprised, but admitting they've never seen one die of old age. No chaos, no warp taint, just sat in a room for several millennia with barely any food without moving (which alone would kill most people if they simply sat still for even just a couple years). Plus coupled with all Astartes being technically biologically immortal due to the ability to enter an infinite period of time in a comatose state in which they seem to produce free energy.

Well....

I don´t know. I haven´t read the book, not a fan of Kyme. But I still don´t see true contradictions between marines eventually aging and exceptions. I mean, I think there must be an explanation. It is not expected, it doesn´t apply to the average marine in average conditions.

The use of the Sus-an Membrane could partly explain that specific case: All Astartes have this implant.

I will add: I remember a Dark Angel from the novel Eye of Terror activating the Sus-an Membrane when lost in space after a rather cool fight against a World Eater, and waking up 10000 years later in mint condition.

That´s not "not aging", it is a special power that allows you to enter a suspended animation state. They cannot move, they cannot think, they are not truly "alive". I don´t know, perhaps the Salamander activated that power most marines have.

In regards to the Salamander

"The warp storms could have affected the passage of time. But it's also entirely possible that this Salamander is simply many years old, longevity being a benefit of our slow metabolic rate. Such a thing has never been tested, given that most of our number invariably meet their end in war or, if death is not forthcoming and age arrives first, by wandering out into the Scorian Plain or setting sail on the Acerbian Sea to find peace. It is the way of the Promethean Creed."

First we don't actually know how much time has passed, second it says that old age can catch a Salamander, causing them to walk into the snow. Lastly he's involved in the whole magic tome of fire business, so who knows how that could effect his life.

Other Loyal Marines who survived 10k years without a Dread, Epimetheus and Abdaziel Magron, did so only by way of Sus-an Membrane which essentially reduces their energy consumption to zero.

"Of all the implanted organs which made a Space Marine more than a man, the sus-an organ was perhaps the least used, but he used it now. One by one it closed down all his biological and psychic functions. His heart slowed, then stopped. His metabolism reduced itself to zero. All his muscles became quiescent. His nerve and brain cells ceased firing. His whole body was blanketed with an electric field to kill any bacteria which might still be alive, and then that field was switched off."

 TheCustomLime wrote:

mstockwe87 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Aging is possibly a combination of the decay of DNA as copies are made over time and the effects of time itself on marines. Since marines mostly use human DNA (At least they don't mention fixing the DNA replication decay issue) they would suffer the from the same thing. Being intended for reproduction has nothing to do with it. It's probable that their sheer durability prevents them deteriorating too quickly.

in the far future, they likely have a resolution for telomerase degrading telomeres (the DNA decay you speak of).

Their solution isn't to treat the cause but rather the effects. It's not specified what rejuvenant treatments are but it seems to use children as a raw material. If I had to guess... they replace the decayed telomeres with "Fresh" ones. So, this tells me that they do not have a cure for this degradation which would mean that Space Marines aren't immortal by themselves. Blood Angels are actually noted for their long life which indicates that Marines do age.

Speaking of Juvenat - Don't Inquisitors tend to take them?

It would explain how you can get 200+ years on ol' Inky and have him still exterminate planet's worth of aliens/daemons/heretics.

except for a few cases SM aren't immortal, even if some of them don't age at all, their body chemistry keep deteriorating, every SM need some periodic medical attention, this is mostly done throught the PA integrated systems, but eventually all marines who survive VEEEERY long will suffer a catastrophic organ failure

about old marines, i read on one of Ragnar's novel that one of their archivitst was a OOOOOLD battle-brother, too ancient to go in battle, but it should be noted that SW tend to age worse than other chapters, the exact opposite of the Angels

It would explain how you can get 200+ years on ol' Inky and have him still exterminate planet's worth of aliens/daemons/heretics.

Rejuve treatments are available to anyone in the Imperium who can afford them, which definitely includes any Inquisitor. They can live for several centuries through these means.

 Psienesis wrote:

It would explain how you can get 200+ years on ol' Inky and have him still exterminate planet's worth of aliens/daemons/heretics.

Rejuve treatments are available to anyone in the Imperium who can afford them, which definitely includes any Inquisitor. They can live for several centuries through these means.

IIRC in Eisenhorn the inquisitor is at one point said to be about 350 years old and expected to live maybe as long again with continued rejuvenat treatments and some good luck. And he's not slowed down at all, he's just as strong and fast as he was in his youth but 300+ years more experienced.

Yup. He's edging on a thousand years old in Pariah.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

It would explain how you can get 200+ years on ol' Inky and have him still exterminate planet's worth of aliens/daemons/heretics.

Rejuve treatments are available to anyone in the Imperium who can afford them, which definitely includes any Inquisitor. They can live for several centuries through these means.

IIRC in Eisenhorn the inquisitor is at one point said to be about 350 years old and expected to live maybe as long again with continued rejuvenat treatments and some good luck. And he's not slowed down at all, he's just as strong and fast as he was in his youth but 300+ years more experienced.

You know it's the future, when 50 years old is considered "youth".

In the HH book 1 (betrayal) there is a line about how space marines are likely functionally immortal.