Has malefic deamonology has broken the game? Lets have a calm conversation about it.

FAQ landed. Most questions answered.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/faqs-and-errata.html

Remaining questions for a TO.

Does shadow in the warp and siren song from fiends effect leadership rolls on perils? I think most players are doing RAI yes. BAO FAQ previously ruled that the a -1 modifier from each fiend stacks, but other TO are free to disagree.


Herald 4 for 1 HQ is a 1 time deal. Most tournaments are doing a 2 book restriction on FOC with either a limit of 2 combined arms or a combined arm FOC + an allied FOC.

4 heralds with lvl3 , Fateweaver, and Be'Lakor is prohibitively expensive at 1030 points leaving the rest of the army vulnerable to an alpha strike or bum rush assault list. Warp storm and the grimiore of true names are unreliable and often a liability without fateweaver in the list. IMO Guaranteed invisibility from Be'Lakor is the most broken thing in 7th edition and the factory either has to give up Fateweaver, give up Be'Lakor, or be so overspent on 1,030+ points of HQ that it becomes very vulnerable to hard counters.

The linchpins of the factory is not the 3 warp charge primaris. It's the 1 warp charge cursed earth and sacrifice, specifically sacrifice. Gaining 2 warp charges, 2 rolls on the daemonolgy table, and 70 points of herald for 1 warp charge is far better than gaining 90 points of summoned deamons + an icon + an instrument for 3 warp charges. The multiple cursed earths giving the entire army a 4+ invo instead of a 5+ and the easy access to a 2++ rerollable invo on screamers with cursed earth and grimiore make it the other linchpin.

6 warp charge for primaris summoning is a very inefficient use of warp charges, but early in the game it ensures warp charges will never go to waste. Other armies with a lot of warp charges won't have a constructive use for half of their warp charges until turn 2 or turn 3.

The big question remains: Is the deamon factory broken?

If so the next question is what measures would be needed keep daemons in a tournament wihtout resorting to draconian measures like limiting warp charge pools.?

*So far one of the most constructive ideas is that an increase in KP as a secondary mission in more scenarios would help against deamons. It might also rebalance the meta if MSU starts to grow out of control. There is also the option of broad side bash type scenarios where every 3 KP yields 1 VP in objective based games.

Thanks to Hulksmash pointing out the 4 per 1 discount on heralds is a 1 time offer and Blackmoore for constructive feedback.

If a TO still believes that deamon factory is stupid OP my suggestion is to nerf sacrifice and require that the casting model be the one to be sacrificed on a perils of the warp. Sacrifice is a critical linchpin in the deamonic factory so a nerf to sacrifice would really hit the deamon factory where it hurts. I'm not convinced this is a necessary measure yet, but I am convinced it would really hurt deamons.

Here is my opinion, Ban all summoning powers

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Here is my opinion, Ban all summoning powers

Can we also ban all markerlights because they're too good?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Here is my opinion, Ban all summoning powers

In the absence of any constructive solutions I think many TO will end up resorting to that or a warp charge cap.

My suggestion:

May only successfully summon 1 daemon unit per turn.

 jy2 wrote:
My suggestion:

May only successfully summon 1 daemon unit per turn.

Which is harsher than a 12 warp charge cap.

Why ban Malefic Summoning powers? Because they allow you to bring in troops with impunity. It slows down the game once more and more get onto the table and you end up with more points then you should have on the board. The only reason that tervigons are different is because they only bring in often a small amount or sometimes none at all.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The only reason that tervigons are different is because they only bring in often a small amount or sometimes none at all.

That and you can't spam 75 point tervies.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
My suggestion:

May only successfully summon 1 daemon unit per turn.

Which is harsher than a 12 warp charge cap.

There are many, many other powers in the book and codex other than the summoning.





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 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Why ban Malefic Summoning powers? Because they allow you to bring in troops with impunity. It slows down the game once more and more get onto the table and you end up with more points then you should have on the board. The only reason that tervigons are different is because they only bring in often a small amount or sometimes none at all.

Many other armies can do it.

Tyranids have tervigons.

Necrons have scarabs.

All other psykers can still summon daemons. They just have a higher chance for Perils, though Eldar can nullify that with their Ghost Helms.

If the number of summoning is low (like 1 or at most 2), then the time factor isn't really an issue.

If the number of heralds is under control the number of summonings will be under control.

My proposed solution:

Play with 7th edition before talking about changing it.....

Jesus, can we wait the weekend before we start trying to change the new rule system. There is a massive diminishing return on summoning and psychic powers in general. This is being looked at in a vacuum without the consideration of what other armies can do and will do to adjust. Let the new rules breathe a bit before smothering them.

Not to mention that your basic premise is flawed. Since you can have only 1 primary detachment and only 4 heralds per primary detachment. You then require 2 additional troops per one herald as you take additional combined arm detachments.

Let the new rules breathe a bit? Both you Hulksmash and jy2 have played enough to be able to name at least a dozen things that have to be house ruled in order to make 7th playable in a competitive "better balance" setting. The demon factory is singled out because doubling your army's points value inside three turns is absurd, but it doesn't make super heavies or unbound lists any less broken.

I doubt anyone needs to play test 7th edition to realise his Tactical Marines and friends still can't beat a Revenant Titan or Aetaos'rau'keres.

 Hulksmash wrote:
My proposed solution:

Play with 7th edition before talking about changing it.....

Jesus, can we wait the weekend before we start trying to change the new rule system. There is a massive diminishing return on summoning and psychic powers in general. This is being looked at in a vacuum without the consideration of what other armies can do and will do to adjust. Let the new rules breathe a bit before smothering them.

Not to mention that your basic premise is flawed. Since you can have only 1 primary detachment and only 4 heralds per primary detachment. You then require 2 additional troops per one herald as you take additional combined arm detachments.

Good catch Hulk. I worked graveyard last night and operating on fumes but can go back and change some points.

4 Heralds is only 12 rolls if they are lvl 3 and only 8 rolls if they are restricted like CSM

12 rolls means only 2 will have sacrifice.

Fateweaver's powers are very specifically set and will not be able to take deamonology.

A standard lord of change would only add as many mastery levels as a herald.

With a single FOC + 1 allied FOC we're looking at a maximum of 18 rolls and 3 heralds/lords of change with sacrifice.

@schadenfreude

No worries. You can't have an allied FOC if they go that route You officially can't ally with the same faction. Which is primary codex (i.e. Space Marines can't have Clan Rakuan allies). They can only have a seperate Combined Arms formation with them.

@Therion

Well, since Unbound is by opponent permission only I didn't consider that as something that needs to be addressed. Technically Battle Forged and Unbound both require permission but it's not changing the rules to say Battle Forged only.

Regarding super heavies i'd argue that with the change to D-weapons I'm fine with them. They are now no worse in general than Distort weapons. Which was the real problem with a Revenant titan, not it's survivability.

And doubling your army is a bit of a stretch. At 1850, assuming the best for horrors and them getting 2 warp charges for 99pts, you're looking at 20 Warpcharges at just over 1k. That nets you 3 decent chance successful casts to summon. That's about 300pts per turn without sacrifce which is another 70pts. So 370 times 3 is 1110. Assuming nothing gets stopped and you succeed on all of them. You doubled the casting portion of your army if everything goes right. All the while doing minimum damage to an army that can be more offensive now thanks to the new scoring rules.

And heaven help you if you go second against an army that can shoot. You start out pretty heavily behind the 8-ball at that point. IG, SM, Tau, Eldar, Nids (assuming biovores & tyrants), Grey Knights (even if you go first here) and a couple of others depending on build and style will destroy a caster heavy army, or shoot into a complete neuter(sp?).

The only thing that might need reigning in is the unlimited detachment thing. But even that I'm not 100% and would only suggest it for player fun (no one wants to play against 9 A-Barges) not actual effectiveness.

And yes, I do play a lot. So when I look at the rules and read through them and form an opinion like I have it's based on that player knowledge. And that player knowledge right now is telling me to leave it alone and let it breathe.

 Hulksmash wrote:
And doubling your army is a bit of a stretch.

Allow me to present exhibit A:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryMAAP6HWfw

 Thud wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
And doubling your army is a bit of a stretch.

Allow me to present exhibit A:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryMAAP6HWfw

21 rolls on summon powers

3.5 sacrafice per turn

I think they were allowing horrors to summon which would boost that to 27 rolls and make it safe to summon troops with 6 dice, but I'm not sure. Nobody knows if horrors will be able to summon yet, and I don't think they will be able to.

Also, right now, horrors could as psykers for, fundamentally, all purposes. If you make horrors count as psykers, but not for the purpose of generating warp dice, it might be less broken, and I could see that sort of a change showing up in a FAQ.

Thus, horrors could USE warp dice, but could not contribute to generating more of them.

Alternatively, I could see horrors and other psychic units as being given a specific set of psychic powers, and only characters being allowed to 'generate' their own psychic powers.

I'm not sure if either would fix the daemonspawn problem, but either (or both) would address it, and both could be reasonably shoehorned into a FAQ.

Horrors are psykers, but their book specifically states they can only take 1 power from tzeentch.

Heralds also state they can only take powers from divination and tzeentch.

I think the safe bet on the faq is everyone but horrors will get access to summoning, and horrors will only have access to tzeentch.

 Thud wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
And doubling your army is a bit of a stretch.

Allow me to present exhibit A:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryMAAP6HWfw

I said it was a bit of a stretch and it is. What you're seeing is an army that is all summoning and can't do offensive damage until at least turn 2 (maybe 3 depending on how summoning goes and what they summon) going against an army with no psychic defense and seriously lacking in ranged firepower. You can see that the deck was stacked to show how crazy summoning is right?

Test it out with the core of your army being:

Coteaz
6x2 Acolyte & 1 Psyker in Psyback
3x5 Purgators w/4 Incinerators in Psybacks

That's 958. So slightly over half an army. 20 dispel dice to keep sacrifice from going off while you pick off squads heralds are hiding in. And unlike the daemon army in the batrep this is the core of something that would be a good army. While it's a bit extreme it'd be a decent test.

Or test it against MSU armies which will be coming back as long as the tournament circuit adjusts to the 1/6 KP the book has for basic missions (I'm looking at Adepticon).

But please don't hold up that battle report as an accurate measure of what summoning will look like in 7th edition. I love Reece and those guys but even they would probably tell you that.

Honestly I think the biggest problem with the malefic is that it just adds so much time to any given game. I think the frontline guys got to turn 5 and that took 6 hours.

I honestly don't see it being a competitive build for that reason alone.

I would be interested in seeing how that army holds up to something like IG who can reliably wipe units down to providing 1 warp charge easily everyturn as well as kill a few heralds or snipe heralds.

Remember those spawned heralds cant join units and so are sitting ducks for the first turn they show up. Enough barrage weapons and there will be no where to hide.

I think at most I would say is that all spawned units come stock with no upgrades. Just to save time.

 Hulksmash wrote:

 Thud wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
And doubling your army is a bit of a stretch.

Allow me to present exhibit A:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryMAAP6HWfw

I said it was a bit of a stretch and it is. What you're seeing is an army that is all summoning and can't do offensive damage until at least turn 2 (maybe 3 depending on how summoning goes and what they summon) going against an army with no psychic defense and seriously lacking in ranged firepower. You can see that the deck was stacked to show how crazy summoning is right?

Test it out with the core of your army being:

Coteaz
6x2 Acolyte & 1 Psyker in Psyback
3x5 Purgators w/4 Incinerators in Psybacks

That's 958. So slightly over half an army. 20 dispel dice to keep sacrifice from going off while you pick off squads heralds are hiding in. And unlike the daemon army in the batrep this is the core of something that would be a good army. While it's a bit extreme it'd be a decent test.

Or test it against MSU armies which will be coming back as long as the tournament circuit adjusts to the 1/6 KP the book has for basic missions (I'm looking at Adepticon).

But please don't hold up that battle report as an accurate measure of what summoning will look like in 7th edition. I love Reece and those guys but even they would probably tell you that.

It was only exhibit A, not my closing statement.

But surely you must be able to see the problems with this? Balance is only one of them. With the 6th ed D-rules, Escalation wasn't just a one way street. My Tau army was pretty handily capable of dropping a Revenant on turn one, if I got first turn, and thus basically winning the game, and also lose on turn one if I didn't go first. That's kinda balanced in its own perverse way. But 40k isn't only about balance. Not even in tournaments. It's also supposed to be fun, right? Did you catch when they said how long the game had taken? Obviously, more familiarity with the edition will decrease that amount, but still...

There's also the issue of this being to a much greater degree than before a "pay to win" option. Not everyone are super into buying tons of models that aren't a part of their list in the first place, and some people are into that. I'm not saying that doesn't already exist, but do we really need more stuff to deepen the gap between those two groups?

A game in a new edition using rules they were unfamiliar with in a game designed to show a flaw in the system in as large a way as possible took longer than it should have? Say it aint so!

But seriously I'm 50/50 on the length issue. We might have gotten another phase but I'm not totally sure it actually slows the game down all that much. No anymore than 3 tervigons who wouldn't poop out did in 5th and 6th. That one I'm willing to take a look at as I play a few games.

 Hulksmash wrote:
A game in a new edition using rules they were unfamiliar with in a game designed to show a flaw in the system in as large a way as possible took longer than it should have? Say it aint so!

But seriously I'm 50/50 on the length issue. We might have gotten another phase but I'm not totally sure it actually slows the game down all that much. No anymore than 3 tervigons who wouldn't poop out did in 5th and 6th. That one I'm willing to take a look at as I play a few games.

Yea, I was more addressing that fact that each summoning adds rolls for spells, they have to select equipment, they have to deep strike and place units, and this is compounded every turn with further summons, rolling for wargear so on and so forth.

Normally the first 2-3 turns are slow and as the number of units decreases they go much faster. However in this case at least for 1-2 turns it will actually go in the opposite direction and significantly increase time. That is regardless of familiarity with the rules.

Sorry Leth, that was in response to Thud.

While I agree portions could take longer and might I think that any list based around summoning is going to get rocked so hard by lists designed for 7th (assuming the inevitable changes the TO's make aren't to restrictive) that I don't think it's truly going to be an issue.

And I think that the summoning scare would pass faster if we played the game instead of trying to change it right off the bat (directed more at the thread, not you Leth).

This has somewhat the same solution the ever-existing time issue. I know it hasn't been done yet, but actually finding a way to end someones turn at a set time will stop many of these armies in their tracks since you can hardly start your shooting if you spend 30 sec-1 min on a single summon of lesser daemons.

Although i know this brings many different problems, such as providing clocks, some armies not being able to be played in a certain time by design etc.

No worries man, I agree. I will admit I was slightly shaken by the two battle reports I saw with lots of dice.

However in one of them they got Fortune and Invisability so that is a little skewed.

The problem is that the lists that are designed around psychic powers can get pretty hard countered by armies with more output everyturn as well as having psychic powers. Look at grey knights, their list will DESTROY a psychic spam army. Or coteaz bringing some santic into other lists and so on and so forth. I think it is very powerful but I think it has too many random elements to be a staple of the competative scene. Also having to have all the models does help that a bit

I'm also for letting it play out a bit, that said I think the best fix is capping all powers except spell focus primaris powers to one per army. His solves a lot of potential problems.

 Hulksmash wrote:
A game in a new edition using rules they were unfamiliar with in a game designed to show a flaw in the system in as large a way as possible took longer than it should have? Say it aint so!

But seriously I'm 50/50 on the length issue. We might have gotten another phase but I'm not totally sure it actually slows the game down all that much. No anymore than 3 tervigons who wouldn't poop out did in 5th and 6th. That one I'm willing to take a look at as I play a few games.

It's too early to be decided on the issue. Right now the #1 solution is to play test the list more to determine if there needs to be a fix.

Could we get your feedback from playtesting Hulk? When you playtest please let us know if you were playtesting pink horrors as having Tzeentch only powers or being able to summon. I firmly believe the FAQ will limit horrors to Tzeentch only and the deamon factory will be much more tame when only HQ can summon.

There are also some hard counters that I can see being popular in the meta. If someone has the time please try one of these against the deamon factory.

#1 Khan biker list with 3 priests from allied IG, a power armor librarian, LRC, and 6 assault terminators. The librarian will give the LRC carrying the librarian, 3 priests, and 6 assault terminators a scout more. On the first turn they can assault 2 priests jump out of the LRC to join white scar bike units and the 3rd stays inside the terminator unit and everything assaults.

#2 GK with 2 units of interceptors, henchmen with 1 psyker, lots of transports, and coteaz. Should be able to generate 18 power dice. Go first, shunt, and drop 9 power dice into 2 giant warp quakes. covering the entire deamonic deployment zone. If a summoned unit mishaps and is deployed by the gk player set it next to coteaz while he is in a 100 point unit of purgation that has 4 heavy incinerators.

Some spit ball ideas:

1. Making a Perils cause the manifest attempt to fail.

2. Removing the bonus to casting Malefic that Daemons have so that they also perils on any double roll.

3. If 1, then probably remove the penalty for casting Malefic that other armies have (perils on any double).

4. Limit Malefic to only 1 Model per army.

5. Limit Conjuration to only 1 per turn.

6. Cap the WC that can be spent on any particular category (or Discipline) of power. For example, you can only spend 10 dice per type of power. Thus, you could spend 10 on Blessings, and 10 on Conjurations, but no more than 10 on any one category.

Breng77 wrote:
I'm also for letting it play out a bit, that said I think the best fix is capping all powers except spell focus primaris powers to one per army. This solves a lot of potential problems.

And introduces a ton of new ones. What this does is allows someone to plan their army exactly around which powers they will have. While I feel the change to random powers was a bit of a mistake, it's what the game is "balanced" around right now, and if you limit any given power to one-per-army, a player can simply take two ML3 Psykers and know that they will have every power in a given tree (plus two copies of the Primaris).

If I knew for certain that I would have, for instance, every power in Runes of Fate, it would very much change how I build my Eldar army and give me a huge advantage over those who don't have the same option.


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rollawaythestone wrote:
4. Limit Malefic to only 1 Model per army.

I really like this option. Allows for units to be brought in (possibly two+ per turn) but without the potential for exponential silliness that can happen right now with Heralds (or if we assume that Horrors can also roll on Malefic). It also allows an opponent to focus fire if they desire to take out that summoner model. A sort of "restriction" of Malefic (to borrow an MTG term) rather than the outright banning that some people are suggesting.

While true, it also means you never get more than one of each, so sure you get fortune as an automatic but you you were frequently getting it anyway, I have my doubts about the game being balanced around random anyway (it is not balanced around anything).

Also consider sure you get all your powers but only having one of most of them means it is easier for the opponent to try to shut down the important power. It is not perfect but it is far better than the potential of armies summoning hundreds of daemons per turn.

Also consider diminishing returns having lots of psykers is really going to have you running out of powers to take that are of much use.


[

No armies are going to be summoning 100's of daemons. At 7-9 warp charges per summoning, all but the most stacked armies will be trying to cast ~3 maximum. Plus trying to cast Cursed Earth twice, invisibility, etc. An army summoning more than 3 units of daemons is not going to be doing any damage to you, and you hopefully should have enough shooting to take out 20 T3 5++ models per turn...

Trasvi wrote:
No armies are going to be summoning 100's of daemons. At 7-9 warp charges per summoning, all but the most stacked armies will be trying to cast ~3 maximum. Plus trying to cast Cursed Earth twice, invisibility, etc. An army summoning more than 3 units of daemons is not going to be doing any damage to you, and you hopefully should have enough shooting to take out 20 T3 5++ models per turn...

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/05/24/warhammer-40k-7th-ed-video-bat-rep-daemons-vs-imperials/

6 units of 11 horrors.
4 lvl 3 heralds
Fateweaver
2 lvl 3 Deamon princes
Total=34 mastery levels.

Cursed earth and sacrifice are fine on 2 dice. 3 sacrifices and 2 cursed earths would be 10 dice leaving 32 leftover for 5 attempts at 6 dice to summon. That should summon 30 more models if 3 are successful and yield 6 more mastery levels in heralds from the sacrifices.

Front line gaming didn't even include an aegis. With an aegis gun lines won't be able to touch deamons without barrage or ignore cover because the Tzeentch deamons will g2g for a 2+ cover and they reroll 1s so it takes 36 wounds to kill a single T3 model.

The deamon factory will absolutely dominate gunline lists. That being said I'm totally ok with deamon factory entering the tournament scene because deamon factory has multiple hard counters including any and all fast close combat lists. White scar bikes, wraith wing, scarab farm, mechanized ork bumrush, dog pile, swarms of fast nid gribbles like gargoyles + hormagaunts, a pair of DE beast packs, ravenwing, 18 nurgle chaos spawn, and many others will land half the army or more into close combat on turn 2. Horrors and tzeentch heralds are very weak in CC, and deamonic instability is very unforgiving in CC. Warp quake from interceptors shunting into the army will also shut it down hard.

Because daemon factory has so many hard counters I don't think balls to the wall deamon factory will be a competitive 6th ed list.

^^ And that would be what I call the 'most stacked' list possible. And as you say, it has so many hard counters. And it is still summoning max 50 demons per turn - and on 6 dice you have a 35% failure rate, reasonably you're summoning 30.

Although I'm suprised you feel that fast combat armies would beat them. IMO, those armies could be suitably bogged in combat all game by summoning bubble-wrap units in between yourself and the enemy. Those white scar bikers will spend the entire game charging units of daemonettes, losing a model or two while wiping said daemonettes in combat, only to have a new unit summoned in front of them. Or a single unit of horrors - with Grimiore + cursed earth, 10 horrors could tarpit any unit in the game while you summon some bloodcrushers/fiends/whatevers behind them. Jetpack infantry would have a sightly easier time if they jump over the tarpitters, but that is assuming they actually manage to win in the first round of combat...

 Hulksmash wrote:
My proposed solution:

Play with 7th edition before talking about changing it.....

Jesus, can we wait the weekend before we start trying to change the new rule system.

No! It isn't wine, no time to 'let it breath'. There must be running around with arm waving, breast beating, and mass hysteria.

And a scapegoat. Maybe that handlebar moustache guy.

And a three day weekend is too long to wait anyway.

The universe (which is only 40k) must *make* sense, and Andrew is of the right mind! Get with the program, Brad!
...
Damn it.


Seriously, I'm going to give the daemon factory a trial run tomorrow with MikeFox. We'll chime in and let you know how it went. I will work the camera and bat rep it. We will see if my modest daemon collection can make IG summoners broken or not.

 Hulksmash wrote:
My proposed solution:

Play with 7th edition before talking about changing it.....

Jesus, can we wait the weekend before we start trying to change the new rule system. There is a massive diminishing return on summoning and psychic powers in general. This is being looked at in a vacuum without the consideration of what other armies can do and will do to adjust. Let the new rules breathe a bit before smothering them.

We will not know if psychic powers and/or summoning is broken for a month or two. This is a new edition and it takes a while for the meta game to fix, and counter new combos.

I am also not sure that summoning is broken. If you look at the batrep that everyone is pointing to as an example for how broken demons are they did not even win!!!

Trasvi wrote:
^^ And that would be what I call the 'most stacked' list possible. And as you say, it has so many hard counters. And it is still summoning max 50 demons per turn - and on 6 dice you have a 35% failure rate, reasonably you're summoning 30.

Although I'm suprised you feel that fast combat armies would beat them. IMO, those armies could be suitably bogged in combat all game by summoning bubble-wrap units in between yourself and the enemy. Those white scar bikers will spend the entire game charging units of daemonettes, losing a model or two while wiping said daemonettes in combat, only to have a new unit summoned in front of them. Or a single unit of horrors - with Grimiore + cursed earth, 10 horrors could tarpit any unit in the game while you summon some bloodcrushers/fiends/whatevers behind them. Jetpack infantry would have a sightly easier time if they jump over the tarpitters, but that is assuming they actually manage to win in the first round of combat...

White scar bikes have hit and run thus can't be tarpitted by the Grimiore. Hit and run would actually fling the bikes into the back ranks of horrors. Bubble wrap only needs a bike sized hole popped into it to multi assault a 2nd squad behind it.

The grimiored unit can be killed in a multi assault.

Squad A multi assaults the Grimiore'd unit with a 2++ reroll and a 2nd pink horror unit. Squad B assaults the 2nd pink horror unit. Squad A and the 2++ reroll horrors is uneventful with no wounds. Squad A + Squad B versus the 2nd unit of pink horrors slaughters the pink horrors. The grimiored squad then takes massive damage from deamonic instability.

Also the entire white scar army would be assaulting on turn 1 if they go 2nd or turn 2 if they go 1st. Other turn 2 assaults can include the contents of 5 ork battlewagons, 60 flesh hounds, 12 nurgle chaos spawn +6 khorne chaos spawn and the axe of blind fury on a juggy, 18 wraiths and 2 dlords, exc exc..the list is pretty extensive.

Thought of another counter. Coteaz can go in a GK land raider with an allied white scar IC to give it scout to go in with all the bikes. Assault with the contents on turn 2 and any deamons summoned next to coteaz's unit will get lite up with I've been expecting you.

Put a Warp CHarge Tax.

For each Summoned Deamon unit, you must sacrifice permanently a Warp CHarge to maintain their form into the material realm.

You have 3 Units?, you deduce till the end of the game 3 Warp charges of your pool.

It could be D3 WC.

Or 1 WC for Troops Deamons units, 2 WC for Elite/FA Deamons units and 3 for GD's.

Every tourney mission has the secondary mission of Killpoints! Now they are feeding their opponents score. Also does not change rules. Also does not have a down side for anyone.

I am running Dark Angels 9th company with a standard of devastation behind an aegis for 2500 points next week vs the daemon factory list. Sgt. Hudson 3rd squad might be screaming about how they're comming outta the emperor cursed walls... come get some

Is anybody available in the Long Beach/Orange county area in the day time to play test with or against a deamon factory?

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
My proposed solution:

Play with 7th edition before talking about changing it.....

Jesus, can we wait the weekend before we start trying to change the new rule system. There is a massive diminishing return on summoning and psychic powers in general. This is being looked at in a vacuum without the consideration of what other armies can do and will do to adjust. Let the new rules breathe a bit before smothering them.

We will not know if psychic powers and/or summoning is broken for a month or two. This is a new edition and it takes a while for the meta game to fix, and counter new combos.

I am also not sure that summoning is broken. If you look at the batrep that everyone is pointing to as an example for how broken demons are they did not even win!!!

The factory it's self is rather static and slow to seize objectives. It doesn't start to seize objectives and gain mobility until deamonetts are churned out. The list is also really going to suffer when playing mission cards because it will be unlikely to generate many VP in turn 1 or turn 2..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quientin wrote:
Every tourney mission has the secondary mission of Killpoints! Now they are feeding their opponents score. Also does not change rules. Also does not have a down side for anyone.

Broadside bash did a variation of that where every 3 KP gave a VP in objective based games. Going to add that to the OP.

 schadenfreude wrote:
The factory it's self is rather static and slow to seize objectives. It doesn't start to seize objectives and gain mobility until deamonetts are churned out. The list is also really going to suffer when playing mission cards because it will be unlikely to generate many VP in turn 1 or turn 2.. .

Very true. The all-out, 33WC summoning factory is extremely static.
I think a competitive but not overpowered summoning build might look more like this - taken from 40k Daemons Blog

Fateweaver
Tzerald, ML3, disc, grimoire
Tzerald, ML2, disc, portalglyph
11 Horrors
11 Horrors
6 Fiends
14 Flesh Hounds
9 Screamers
Be'lakor
10 Cultists
Bastion

This army presents credible threats to most units, is guaranteed to have at least one psyker with invisibility and shrouded, plus 2/4 models that can summon. Shroud+jink on the screamers, invis on the hounds, grimiore+cursed earth on the Fiends and you have 3 units that will reach combat by the second turn. Tzeralds summon in something (likely Bloodcrushers for combat punch or Horrors/plaguebearers for survivability), horrors summon in horrors in the back field.

I think that could actually be a reasonably balanced list... but I'm going to play a few games with it first

7th has been out for 3 days... I do not know of any tournies that have played this edition. The rumors were 85% inaccurate just like wood elves, and just like orks will be...

3 days... and people are already whining and crying about the rules. Really people give the game a chance FFS. Make all the list you want, but until anything is played at equal competitive levels over many many games, no one knows....

Trasvi wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
The factory it's self is rather static and slow to seize objectives. It doesn't start to seize objectives and gain mobility until deamonetts are churned out. The list is also really going to suffer when playing mission cards because it will be unlikely to generate many VP in turn 1 or turn 2.. .

Very true. The all-out, 33WC summoning factory is extremely static.
I think a competitive but not overpowered summoning build might look more like this - taken from 40k Daemons Blog

Fateweaver
Tzerald, ML3, disc, grimoire
Tzerald, ML2, disc, portalglyph
11 Horrors
11 Horrors
6 Fiends
14 Flesh Hounds
9 Screamers
Be'lakor
10 Cultists
Bastion

This army presents credible threats to most units, is guaranteed to have at least one psyker with invisibility and shrouded, plus 2/4 models that can summon. Shroud+jink on the screamers, invis on the hounds, grimiore+cursed earth on the Fiends and you have 3 units that will reach combat by the second turn. Tzeralds summon in something (likely Bloodcrushers for combat punch or Horrors/plaguebearers for survivability), horrors summon in horrors in the back field.

I think that could actually be a reasonably balanced list... but I'm going to play a few games with it first

That's closer to what I would expect to see for a competitive list. Only issue is horrors are limited to Tzeentch only powers and can't summon.

Why cant pink horrors use daemonology? It says right in the book every faction knows daemonology except bugs and then says Psykers with daemon special rule can manifest malefic....

No black library or FAQ required. Its spelled out clearly in the new rule book

 schadenfreude wrote:
That's closer to what I would expect to see for a competitive list. Only issue is horrors are limited to Tzeentch only powers and can't summon.

Any particular reasoning behind this?
I am seeing a lot of people say this, but to reach this conclusion you also have to reach the conclusion that NO psyker can roll on malefic, because horrors are worded in exactly the same way as a normal psyker.
Fateweaver and Be'lakor will (probably) not know Malefic, as their rules simply state 'Fateweaver knows all the spells from the Change Discipline'. Most other psykers - including Horrors - are given a list of disciplines to roll on - and if this is the case, they also know Malefic/Santic unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Horrors will thus roll on Change or Malefic - getting up to a potential 3 psychic powers (Flickering Fire from Chaos Focus, one roll on Malefic plus Summoning from Psychic Focus).

I think a strait cap on the number of dice you get per turn would solve a lot of problems. Thinking of seer councils and such as well as daemons.

 jy2 wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Here is my opinion, Ban all summoning powers

Can we also ban all markerlights because they're too good?

To be fair, Markerlights are not adding units (effectively increasing the number of points you get to play with vs your opponent), they're an added cost that increases the effectiveness of what's already on the table, not adding to what's on the table. Completely different story. Markerlights can't also potentially create yet more marketlights, while summoning Daemons can summon more Daemons.

Trasvi wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
That's closer to what I would expect to see for a competitive list. Only issue is horrors are limited to Tzeentch only powers and can't summon.

Any particular reasoning behind this?
I am seeing a lot of people say this, but to reach this conclusion you also have to reach the conclusion that NO psyker can roll on malefic, because horrors are worded in exactly the same way as a normal psyker.
Fateweaver and Be'lakor will (probably) not know Malefic, as their rules simply state 'Fateweaver knows all the spells from the Change Discipline'. Most other psykers - including Horrors - are given a list of disciplines to roll on - and if this is the case, they also know Malefic/Santic unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Horrors will thus roll on Change or Malefic - getting up to a potential 3 psychic powers (Flickering Fire from Chaos Focus, one roll on Malefic plus Summoning from Psychic Focus).

Pretty sure that chaos focus would prevent them from getting psychic focus else where as that rule states if you know an out of discipline power you don't get focus.

1. Maelstrom of War missions seem to literally be designed to prevent lists like this. Just play the missions, and this relatively slow army will struggle to catch up.
2. Let's wait until the FAQs come out, shall we? Psychic Defense is so far in 6th edition mode. Rune Priests may nerf this, or Shadow in the Warp may make this unfeasible.
3. Kill the units in question. He's going to ground? He's not grabbing objectives. See 1.
4. If you think this is a problem, grab 3x3 Wyverns. We've had PLENTY of broken lists before. Remember how broken it was when 9 Night Scythe lists were all the Internet rage? Here's a reminder. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/469911.page This army never won a GT as far as I know. I beat it myself, with Tyranids. It wasn't broken, because for all the pointlessness of shooting at it, it had low damage and struggled to clear objectives in order to claim them. I foresee the same problems with the Summoning Circle, and I imagine the high model count will prevent it from ever emerging, the exact same way that the old 10 Tervigon list never dominated at 2000. Literally, everytime a "killer list" emerges, the 40k community recognizes, watches the FLG BatReps (which are nice and informative) and then figure out how to counter it.

 jifel wrote:
1. Maelstrom of War missions seem to literally be designed to prevent lists like this. Just play the missions, and this relatively slow army will struggle to catch up.

I've seen this point come up a few times, and I've been museing over it.

I think you make a strong point, But I think sadly that might not be what realitiy is going to dictate. A problem that is going to come up, is that some TO's are just not going to want to use the maelstorm of war missions. Alot of TO's want everyone playing the same standard missions, that fit neatly into their excell sheets.

I know when I'm going to play 40k pick-up I'm totally going to use the maelstorm of war missions. They look great fun. But I just get a feeling looking at them, that TO's are just going to take one look at them and say "pass".

Breng77 wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
That's closer to what I would expect to see for a competitive list. Only issue is horrors are limited to Tzeentch only powers and can't summon.

Any particular reasoning behind this?
I am seeing a lot of people say this, but to reach this conclusion you also have to reach the conclusion that NO psyker can roll on malefic, because horrors are worded in exactly the same way as a normal psyker.
Fateweaver and Be'lakor will (probably) not know Malefic, as their rules simply state 'Fateweaver knows all the spells from the Change Discipline'. Most other psykers - including Horrors - are given a list of disciplines to roll on - and if this is the case, they also know Malefic/Santic unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Horrors will thus roll on Change or Malefic - getting up to a potential 3 psychic powers (Flickering Fire from Chaos Focus, one roll on Malefic plus Summoning from Psychic Focus).

Pretty sure that chaos focus would prevent them from getting psychic focus else where as that rule states if you know an out of discipline power you don't get focus.

RAW deamon codex only gives Tzeentch to horrors. RAW nobody can take 7th deamonology powers because their codex does not allow it. RAI is units with full access to powers can have access to deamonology while restricted units like horrors, gk henchmen psykers, and astropaths stay restricted. We won't know fore sure until the FAQ drops, but it's doubtful horrors will have access. 6th ed deamon codex is pretty specific that they only have access to Tzeentch.

Let's pause for a moment to consider an army of Raven Guard tacticals in Rhinos, combat squadded, completely uncontestable by anything but troops of your own before we go declaring summoning to be a problem.

 schadenfreude wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
That's closer to what I would expect to see for a competitive list. Only issue is horrors are limited to Tzeentch only powers and can't summon.

Any particular reasoning behind this?
I am seeing a lot of people say this, but to reach this conclusion you also have to reach the conclusion that NO psyker can roll on malefic, because horrors are worded in exactly the same way as a normal psyker.
Fateweaver and Be'lakor will (probably) not know Malefic, as their rules simply state 'Fateweaver knows all the spells from the Change Discipline'. Most other psykers - including Horrors - are given a list of disciplines to roll on - and if this is the case, they also know Malefic/Santic unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Horrors will thus roll on Change or Malefic - getting up to a potential 3 psychic powers (Flickering Fire from Chaos Focus, one roll on Malefic plus Summoning from Psychic Focus).

Pretty sure that chaos focus would prevent them from getting psychic focus else where as that rule states if you know an out of discipline power you don't get focus.

RAW deamon codex only gives Tzeentch to horrors. RAW nobody can take 7th deamonology powers because their codex does not allow it. RAI is units with full access to powers can have access to deamonology while restricted units like horrors, gk henchmen psykers, and astropaths stay restricted. We won't know fore sure until the FAQ drops, but it's doubtful horrors will have access. 6th ed deamon codex is pretty specific that they only have access to Tzeentch.

The brand new rule book says ALL PSYKERS can generate spells from deamonology... the brand new book says ALL, except tyrannids.. They all have access. Stop with the RAW, RAI grey area BS... Anyone right now, except tyranids. No need for an FAQ, no need for an errata. Its the countless, pointless, grey area arguments like this that has caused 7th edition to come out so fast. "Dear GW does 'all' supersede some? But with the exception of most? Blah blah"... Really GW must have a field day at the office reading some of their FAQ questions. They printed a brand new book, it came out 3 days ago. Again it clearly states all PSYKERS except tyrannids can generate powers from deamonology. PERIOD, Done, end of sentence... A Brand new book says this.

On the Maelstrom of War issue, I talked with a TO today while I played him. We used the normal old missions, but if you preset when each card is drawn it makes more sense. Example: Turn 1, both players receive the "Overwhelming Firepower" card turn 2, both players receive "secure objective 1" and "secure objective 6". If a GT used 3 Maelstrom of War missions and 3 Eternal war Missions, it would be supremely balanced with preset cards to eliminate useless ones.

Tsilber wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
That's closer to what I would expect to see for a competitive list. Only issue is horrors are limited to Tzeentch only powers and can't summon.

Any particular reasoning behind this?
I am seeing a lot of people say this, but to reach this conclusion you also have to reach the conclusion that NO psyker can roll on malefic, because horrors are worded in exactly the same way as a normal psyker.
Fateweaver and Be'lakor will (probably) not know Malefic, as their rules simply state 'Fateweaver knows all the spells from the Change Discipline'. Most other psykers - including Horrors - are given a list of disciplines to roll on - and if this is the case, they also know Malefic/Santic unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Horrors will thus roll on Change or Malefic - getting up to a potential 3 psychic powers (Flickering Fire from Chaos Focus, one roll on Malefic plus Summoning from Psychic Focus).

Pretty sure that chaos focus would prevent them from getting psychic focus else where as that rule states if you know an out of discipline power you don't get focus.

RAW deamon codex only gives Tzeentch to horrors. RAW nobody can take 7th deamonology powers because their codex does not allow it. RAI is units with full access to powers can have access to deamonology while restricted units like horrors, gk henchmen psykers, and astropaths stay restricted. We won't know fore sure until the FAQ drops, but it's doubtful horrors will have access. 6th ed deamon codex is pretty specific that they only have access to Tzeentch.

The brand new rule book says ALL PSYKERS can generate spells from deamonology... the brand new book says ALL, except tyrannids.. They all have access. Stop with the RAW, RAI grey area BS... Anyone right now, except tyranids. No need for an FAQ, no need for an errata. Its the countless, pointless, grey area arguments like this that has caused 7th edition to come out so fast. "Dear GW does 'all' supersede some? But with the exception of most? Blah blah"... Really GW must have a field day at the office reading some of their FAQ questions. They printed a brand new book, it came out 3 days ago. Again it clearly states all PSYKERS except tyrannids can generate powers from deamonology. PERIOD, Done, end of sentence... A Brand new book says this.

And GK rhinos can cast vortex of doom. If you're buying pink horrors with the expectation the FAQ will rule that way and that TO will also rule that way you might be dissapointed.

They went down the same road in 6th and then FAQ'd that GK vehicles and psykers don't have access to book powers.

Also to be asinine along with RAW which is very often asinine. Codex trumps main rulebook. All 6th ed codex rules are very specific about which main book powers are available for each unit, and none of them specifically mention deamonology so nobody can use it because codex trumps the main rulebook.

We're having a disagreement about RAI so there is nothing to do but wait for the FAQ and go with whatever a TO decides.

I do not think that demon summoning is broken.

16 Horrors
1 Herald of Tzeentch Level 3 Psycher

(3 Warp Charges each)

6th edition:
8D6 Strength 5 (or 6) shots
Or 7D6 shots + Prescience


7th Edition
6 Warp Charges+1 Pool Dice=
77% chance to summon 10 Demons

So to sum up:
You can either kill 100 points of your opponent's army, or you can summon 100 points worth of demons.

Not only that but...
#1. You have a lower chance to cast your powers
#2. You are not damaging your opponent
#3. Your opponent is shooting you and crippling your warp charges
#4. You are going to eat a lot of PotW
#5. Grey Knights and Eldar will shut you down with DtW


You will find out that the demon bomb army is not as good as everyone thinks.

 Blackmoor wrote:
I do not think that demon summoning is broken.

16 Horrors
1 Herald of Tzeentch Level 3 Psycher

(3 Warp Charges each)

6th edition:
8D6 Strength 5 (or 6) shots
Or 7D6 shots + Prescience


7th Edition
6 Warp Charges+1 Pool Dice=
77% chance to summon 10 Demons

So to sum up:
You can either kill 100 points of your opponent's army, or you can summon 100 points worth of demons.

Not only that but...
#1. You have a lower chance to cast your powers
#2. You are not damaging your opponent
#3. Your opponent is shooting you and crippling your warp charges
#4. You are going to eat a lot of PotW
#5. Grey Knights and Eldar will shut you down with DtW

You will find out that the demon bomb army is not as good as everyone thinks.

If you eliminate #3 from the equation because of horrors going to ground for a 2+ rerollable cover behind an aegis static gunlines will be terrorized by the deamon factory.

The problem with the argument I just made is it only encourages a TO to allow conjuring, encourages people not to run a static gun line, and could cause summoning to improve the meta.

 schadenfreude wrote:
And GK rhinos can cast vortex of doom.

No. They cannot. This is also covered by the new rules book. Just read the rules.

Cmon People... really. We need to read it or find a new hobby lol. Because this misconstrue of the rules time and time again and the need to argue the greyest and vaguest ideas we can possible think off is tiresome, especially in most cases just to argue....
T.O.'s and GW executives musty have good laughs. I would love for GW to print a new book. " GW hobbiest say the dumbest things"

Also I am not saying it doesnt exist, and not being cryptic with this next part but I did not see in the new rule book "Codex trumps rulebook", so im not sure that argument is valid either... I did not bother to look for it because a new rule book printed in reference to older books, using a sentence with 'ALL' in it, should be clear cut and dry. Shame on me for thinking so i guess.... well not really.

The new rule book clearly says. " All psykers can generate powers from demonology"... PERIOD. I think the only grey area that could even be an argument is if a psyker doesnt generate powers like Bel'Akor, he just knows X,Y,Z. The new rules says "Grey Knights know demonology in addition" . So this covers them, then the psychic vehicle covers rhinos. Again No FAQ required, stop thinking GW is out to get us or confuse or hurt us in some way.

Reading the New Rulebook + common sense + sportsmanship = fun 40k.

Also FYI
Blackmoor is correct and has spelled it out pretty easily.
I personally think Tyrannids and Necrons got biggest buffs in this new rules set, 2 armies that can't cast deamonology.

And in the end i wouldnt be upset or dissapointed however they nerfed, ruled or tweeked deamonology personally. My Daemon army that I won Tempelcon with does not change a single point with the new rules, Wont even bother with Daemonology.

 Blackmoor wrote:
I do not think that demon summoning is broken.

16 Horrors
1 Herald of Tzeentch Level 3 Psycher

(3 Warp Charges each)

6th edition:
8D6 Strength 5 (or 6) shots
Or 7D6 shots + Prescience


7th Edition
6 Warp Charges+1 Pool Dice=
77% chance to summon 10 Demons

So to sum up:
You can either kill 100 points of your opponent's army, or you can summon 100 points worth of demons.

Not only that but...
#1. You have a lower chance to cast your powers
#2. You are not damaging your opponent
#3. Your opponent is shooting you and crippling your warp charges
#4. You are going to eat a lot of PotW
#5. Grey Knights and Eldar will shut you down with DtW

You will find out that the demon bomb army is not as good as everyone thinks.

Well now I'm worried I might be wrong. Blackmoor and I are agreeing and seeing something the same way. What the heck

Pretty much everything Blackmoor said with the addition of:

6th edition army mindsets looking at summoning could see it as broken. I get that. But with scoring being opened up it's no longer a game of surviving to kill your opponents troops and hiding just one of yours where deathstars excel. Now everything scores (some better than others but everything does score). That is going to shift the game back to a more MSU approach since giving deathstars more targets than they can handle is a great way of handling deathstars. And with a ton of units you get the ability to shoot lots of units. Meaning you can cripple the herald/troop portions of a summoning farm fairly quickly and easily. Especially since they won't be shooting back at you.

Just something to consider.

Tsilber wrote:
Cmon People... really. We need to read it or find a new hobby lol. Because this misconstrue of the rules time and time again and the need to argue the greyest and vaguest ideas we can possible think off is tiresome, especially in most cases just to argue....
T.O.'s and GW executives musty have good laughs. I would love for GW to print a new book. " GW hobbiest say the dumbest things"

Also I am not saying it doesnt exist, and not being cryptic with this next part but I did not see in the new rule book "Codex trumps rulebook", so im not sure that argument is valid either... I did not bother to look for it because a new rule book printed in reference to older books, using a sentence with 'ALL' in it, should be clear cut and dry. Shame on me for thinking so i guess.... well not really.

The new rule book clearly says. " All psykers can generate powers from demonology"... PERIOD. I think the only grey area that could even be an argument is if a psyker doesnt generate powers like Bel'Akor, he just knows X,Y,Z. The new rules says "Grey Knights know demonology in addition" . So this covers them, then the psychic vehicle covers rhinos. Again No FAQ required, stop thinking GW is out to get us or confuse or hurt us in some way.

Reading the New Rulebook + common sense + sportsmanship = fun 40k.

Also FYI
Blackmoor is correct and has spelled it out pretty easily.
I personally think Tyrannids and Necrons got biggest buffs in this new rules set, 2 armies that can't cast deamonology.

And in the end i wouldnt be upset or dissapointed however they nerfed, ruled or tweeked deamonology personally. My Daemon army that I won Tempelcon with does not change a single point with the new rules, Wont even bother with Daemonology.

After going through the new powers charts, I'm beginning to think that Malefic is kind of a trap for DoC anyways!

The LoC is still better off with Divination due to the likes of Forewarning, Precog & Misfortune. In a mono-Tzeentch army, thanks to the existence of cheap Exalted Flamers in HQ now, Foreboding has gained as the Ex.Flamer can shoot his S9/ap2 at full BS, while Scrier's Gaze is now solid for combo'ing with Icon/Instrument shenanigans and also helps to protect against bad draws in Maelstrom missions.

Keepers will prefer to keep Telepathy for obvious reasons.

Princes are just plain insane with the Biomancy re-work! Holy feth, imagine for a minute Iron Arm and/or Warpspeed combo'd with the Eternal Beatstick - enjoy that 5 + 3 + D3 attack monster! (potentially at S10 to boot!)
Endurance is plain gross, especially if Iron Arm is in play.
Life Leach is a nifty way to keep healing a wound/Psychic phase, and with likely Mastery Lv3, it's not that easy to dispel either.

So maybe Heralds might wet their feet with Daemonology?

Overall I don't see too many established Daemon players really jumping ship to Malefic... sure Cursed Earth is awesome, but the lores we used throughout 6th edition are just a better all round toolbox, especially on the big guys.

To piggy back off hulks point. With people trying to optimize you are litterally one kill away from dropping a warp charge point from each unit. I think 5 marines can reliably do that, hell the drop pod might do it. With three drop pods coming in I can remove 6 warp charges with pretty good odds.

Or with bikes, or with other fast units. Or with barrage, maybe start taking mortars(just kidding....) I think IG can blow em up faster than you can spawn them. The point is now that its not kill troops win game mobility is going to be a huge part of this edition. Something the demon farm is not equiped to deal with.

I've been trying to look at the positive side as the internetosphere seems to be blowing up about the summoning thing.

1 - We finally have rules that will actually reflect a full blown 'Demonic Infestation'. Same goes for the other Horde armies, Like Nids, Orks, and IG. They are no longer as restricted by the FOC like in previous editions, and have access to more slots, even on a Battle-Forged lists.

I'm not disagreeing that there is a problem, but any proposed solution should keep this in mind, until we get word from GW.

2 - With the exception of the odd Batrep, or people fudging dice rolls to see what is possible, most of what I've been seeing has been theorycrafting/mathhammer. Several players have pointed out that the New Maelstrom missions can possibly curb the effectiveness of these lists.

3 - If there was ever a reason to allow 'Unbound' lists in Tourneys, then the abuse of summoning makes a good case for it. I was initially not happy with the whole concept of 'Unbound' lists, but with the Combo of 'Objective Secured' and the Maelstrom Missions, they may not always be the best choice. I think it might be possible that restricting Tourneys to 'Battle-Forged' only eliminates combinations that might be able to deal with it. Sure, this means Demons can also be 'Unbound', but they were going to win already right?

If after exhausting all the 'supported' methods, and getting some actual experience, which were not going to have as a community after one week of the rules being official, then we should try, as a community to find solutions. Like everyone else, I have thought about it, and here are some suggestions that I haven't seen, that might also work.

* Instead of restricting armies to X amount of Charges, or limit how many they can use per turn, why not limit the amount of dice that each psyker can use? Like ML+2 or +3 for example? This makes it difficult for ML1 psyker to manifest ML3 powers, as it probably should be. It also makes the higher costed powers riskier, even for ML3 psyker so because they won't be able to use all of the available charges to get a power off. This would also encourage mixing powers up, and not penalize players for building these 20+ Warp Charge lists and then saying they can only use a portion of them.

* Make Perils attack for each pair of 6s (or any pairs in the case of non demon, demonology). I have seen other people try to pass this off as the rule, I'm either not seeing it, or not interpreting the rule that way. It would make the risk of throwing more dice at a power go up as the potential for more perils would also go up. It would also drain some of the excess Warp Charges if the Eldar lists had to Ghosthelm multiple Perils.

* Instead of requiring 'Deny the Witch' to cancel ALL of the charges to cancel a power, make it so that they still have to have enough remaining Warp Charges to have successfully manifest the power. This would make the higher costed powers more easily interrupted, which makes sense since they would require more concentration. The downside to this is that targeted powers would also be easier to deny.

That's my 2 bits worth.

 Blackmoor wrote:

I am also not sure that summoning is broken. If you look at the batrep that everyone is pointing to as an example for how broken demons are they did not even win!!!

DUDE YOU ARE TOTALLLY STUPID STFU DEMONZ RZ BROKENZZZ!!!!

I love how everyone see's a couple bat reps, where I kid you not, every single damn roll the daemons wanted to make, gets made, and we see them constantly making ML3 power rolls on only 3 dice, and yet they still do not win, makes them totally OP...

seriously far too much chicken littling over this,

I have even seen people complaining about how "tough" t3/t4 5++ models are... seriously... I hope every demons player ever brings demon factory lists, because it is a far far worse list then screamerstar...

Brotherhood of psykers in the Daemon list get Daemonology now. So that's that answered.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Tsilber wrote:
Cmon People... really. We need to read it or find a new hobby lol. Because this misconstrue of the rules time and time again and the need to argue the greyest and vaguest ideas we can possible think off is tiresome, especially in most cases just to argue....
T.O.'s and GW executives musty have good laughs. I would love for GW to print a new book. " GW hobbiest say the dumbest things"

Also I am not saying it doesnt exist, and not being cryptic with this next part but I did not see in the new rule book "Codex trumps rulebook", so im not sure that argument is valid either... I did not bother to look for it because a new rule book printed in reference to older books, using a sentence with 'ALL' in it, should be clear cut and dry. Shame on me for thinking so i guess.... well not really.

The new rule book clearly says. " All psykers can generate powers from demonology"... PERIOD. I think the only grey area that could even be an argument is if a psyker doesnt generate powers like Bel'Akor, he just knows X,Y,Z. The new rules says "Grey Knights know demonology in addition" . So this covers them, then the psychic vehicle covers rhinos. Again No FAQ required, stop thinking GW is out to get us or confuse or hurt us in some way.

Reading the New Rulebook + common sense + sportsmanship = fun 40k.

Also FYI
Blackmoor is correct and has spelled it out pretty easily.
I personally think Tyrannids and Necrons got biggest buffs in this new rules set, 2 armies that can't cast deamonology.

And in the end i wouldnt be upset or dissapointed however they nerfed, ruled or tweeked deamonology personally. My Daemon army that I won Tempelcon with does not change a single point with the new rules, Wont even bother with Daemonology.

After going through the new powers charts, I'm beginning to think that Malefic is kind of a trap for DoC anyways!

The LoC is still better off with Divination due to the likes of Forewarning, Precog & Misfortune. In a mono-Tzeentch army, thanks to the existence of cheap Exalted Flamers in HQ now, Foreboding has gained as the Ex.Flamer can shoot his S9/ap2 at full BS, while Scrier's Gaze is now solid for combo'ing with Icon/Instrument shenanigans and also helps to protect against bad draws in Maelstrom missions.

Keepers will prefer to keep Telepathy for obvious reasons.

Princes are just plain insane with the Biomancy re-work! Holy feth, imagine for a minute Iron Arm and/or Warpspeed combo'd with the Eternal Beatstick - enjoy that 5 + 3 + D3 attack monster! (potentially at S10 to boot!)
Endurance is plain gross, especially if Iron Arm is in play.
Life Leach is a nifty way to keep healing a wound/Psychic phase, and with likely Mastery Lv3, it's not that easy to dispel either.

So maybe Heralds might wet their feet with Daemonology?

Overall I don't see too many established Daemon players really jumping ship to Malefic... sure Cursed Earth is awesome, but the lores we used throughout 6th edition are just a better all round toolbox, especially on the big guys.

The Bio doesnt really add any bang factor that you didnt get last addition.

Bloodthirster in 6th could generate 6+ attacks at Str 10 without using any spells before. 3 for smashing, + 1 for charging, + 1 for 2 weapons, +d3 for rampage. T6 none the less
And the DP from black legion could do the same, 3 attacks for smashing, + 1 charging, +d6 for deamon weapon. Add the skull for Eternal warrior on T5

But im with you, Deamonology seems cool and all, but to me it doesn't do much more than hope for good rolls on a phase to slow the game only to not accomplish anything else... only to summon a mediocre DP who gets shot on my opponents turn.

I watched a funny game over the weekend between DoC and Tyranids. The DoC player was running a huge pile of Khorne Dogs joined by two HoK on Juggernauts supported by four HoT, a LoC, and several units of Horrors.

The Tyranid player quit around turn four at which point the DoC player had two Bloodthirsters (one other had been killed) and two more HoT he didn't start with. The 'Nid player had already lost all his MC, and the DoC player had two more than he started with....haha.

IDK if it has been pointed out but the FAQ is up.

Every "psyker" or "brothehood of sorcerers" rule in CD can roll on the deamonology table in addition to the tables in their unit entry.

This means that they can take the Malefic Primaris Power for summoning.

That assumption that they could not use Deamonolgy because they pull from the Tzeentch table is now dead and buried.

Did they really add an Exalted Flamer of Tzeetch as an HQ unit for deamons, but forget to list him as a jump unit type?

How about just playing it as is?


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Summoner armies will simply take too long to play. Simply add the tournament rule of: Failure to play 4 turns is an auto loss for both players.

You can actually play a Summoning army fairly quickly if you know what orders your going in and have a easy reference to who has what powers for example using markers to denote who has which abilities It doesn't take hours in fact its more straight forward than most armies psychics. Its pretty much , Cast Cursed Earth, Cast Summon spells, put out daemons. Done. Icons and such allow Daemons to not scatter on deep strike so take those to skip a step.

Where it get's complicated is Flickering Fire.

An amusing match up would be a fiend heavy deamon list. Give one unit a 2+ invo an another unit invisibility with belekor. Then watch perils turn catastrophic when all the psykers go down to ld2.

I'm starting to think summoning is really good, but needs to be in moderation to avoid giving up midfield control in the early game.

Summoning is really off the chain. I think it should be 2d6 random akin to the nids abilities, but lower for smaller packs of demons(not 3d6). Also summoning a greater deamon should also cost a near by friendly unit with 6" to be Sacerficed (roll randomly if many are present, if no one can be sacrificed spell can't be casted. idea is to level pt costs a bit), summoning a herald should deal a wound to the caster and cost d3 wounds to a nearby unit no saves allowed.

This kinda makes me feel like the law of equal exchange is happening.

 schadenfreude wrote:
An amusing match up would be a fiend heavy deamon list. Give one unit a 2+ invo an another unit invisibility with belekor. Then watch perils turn catastrophic when all the psykers go down to ld2.

I'm starting to think summoning is really good, but needs to be in moderation to avoid giving up midfield control in the early game.

The don't go to leadership 2, only minus -1 leadership... I wish you were correct though..
Also do they even take the same kind of "leadership test" now? I though they just roll dice and need as many 4's as the spell requires warp charges. Only perils on double 6's in most cases.

As for summoning a DP, he is naked, no gifts, no armor, no wings. He is not that big of a deal. A lot of points and rolls and sacrifices just to get a naked DP. Might as well buy a winged dp in the army.

Tsilber wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
An amusing match up would be a fiend heavy deamon list. Give one unit a 2+ invo an another unit invisibility with belekor. Then watch perils turn catastrophic when all the psykers go down to ld2.

I'm starting to think summoning is really good, but needs to be in moderation to avoid giving up midfield control in the early game.

The don't go to leadership 2, only minus -1 leadership... I wish you were correct though..
Also do they even take the same kind of "leadership test" now? I though they just roll dice and need as many 4's as the spell requires warp charges. Only perils on double 6's in most cases.

As for summoning a DP, he is naked, no gifts, no armor, no wings. He is not that big of a deal. A lot of points and rolls and sacrifices just to get a naked DP. Might as well buy a winged dp in the army.

1) Its -1 Ld to Psykers, non-stacking. However it is -1 Ld all the time, so potentially you can use this to force leadership/morale tests...
2) Possession brings in a Greater Daemon, not a Daemon Prince.

There is a good legitimate debate if summoning is good for the meta. Please try to keep the conversation constructive.

Performed a massive edit on the OP to correct for FAQ rulings some of which I personally found surprising, but the FAQ is the FAQ. The new OP reads as follows.

Has malefic deamonology has broken the game? Lets have a calm conversation about it.

FAQ landed. Most questions answered.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/faqs-and-errata.html

Remaining questions for a TO.

Does shadow in the warp and siren song from fiends effect leadership rolls on perils? I think most players are doing RAI yes. BAO FAQ previously ruled that the a -1 modifier from each fiend stacks, but other TO are free to disagree.


Herald 4 for 1 HQ is a 1 time deal. Most tournaments are doing a 2 book restriction on FOC with either a limit of 2 combined arms or a combined arm FOC + an allied FOC.

4 heralds with lvl3 , Fateweaver, and Be'Lakor is prohibitively expensive at 1030 points leaving the rest of the army vulnerable to an alpha strike or bum rush assault list. Warp storm and the grimiore of true names are unreliable and often a liability without fateweaver in the list. IMO Guaranteed invisibility from Be'Lakor is the most broken thing in 7th edition and the factory either has to give up Fateweaver, give up Be'Lakor, or be so overspent on 1,030+ points of HQ that it becomes very vulnerable to hard counters.

The linchpins of the factory is not the 3 warp charge primaris. It's the 1 warp charge cursed earth and sacrifice, specifically sacrifice. Gaining 2 warp charges, 2 rolls on the daemonolgy table, and 70 points of herald for 1 warp charge is far better than gaining 90 points of summoned deamons + an icon + an instrument for 3 warp charges. The multiple cursed earths giving the entire army a 4+ invo instead of a 5+ and the easy access to a 2++ rerollable invo on screamers with cursed earth and grimiore make it the other linchpin.

6 warp charge for primaris summoning is a very inefficient use of warp charges, but early in the game it ensures warp charges will never go to waste. Other armies with a lot of warp charges won't have a constructive use for half of their warp charges until turn 2 or turn 3.

The big question remains: Is the deamon factory broken?

If so the next question is what measures would be needed keep daemons in a tournament wihtout resorting to draconian measures like limiting warp charge pools.?

*So far one of the most constructive ideas is that an increase in KP as a secondary mission in more scenarios would help against deamons. It might also rebalance the meta if MSU starts to grow out of control. There is also the option of broad side bash type scenarios where every 3 KP yields 1 VP in objective based games.

Thanks to Hulksmash pointing out the 4 per 1 discount on heralds is a 1 time offer and Blackmoore for constructive feedback.

If a TO still believes that deamon factory is stupid OP my suggestion is to nerf sacrifice and require that the casting model be the one to be sacrificed on a perils of the warp. Sacrifice is a critical linchpin in the deamonic factory so a nerf to sacrifice would really hit the deamon factory where it hurts. I'm not convinced this is a necessary measure yet, but I am convinced it would really hurt deamons.

How about:
Daemons still perils on any
doubles if trying to conjour daemons of a different god?

 Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:

Summoner armies will simply take too long to play. Simply add the tournament rule of: Failure to play 4 turns is an auto loss for both players.

So you get punished for your opponent's army build/play style? Sounds fun!

 Hulksmash wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:
Not only that but...
#1. You have a lower chance to cast your powers
#2. You are not damaging your opponent
#3. Your opponent is shooting you and crippling your warp charges
#4. You are going to eat a lot of PotW
#5. Grey Knights and Eldar will shut you down with DtW

You will find out that the demon bomb army is not as good as everyone thinks.

And with a ton of units you get the ability to shoot lots of units. Meaning you can cripple the herald/troop portions of a summoning farm fairly quickly and easily. Especially since they won't be shooting back at you.

Just something to consider.

Which is how my three games/lists focused on daemon conjuring have gone; I lost quite badly in each. A far larger sampling must be surveyed of course, but I already won't care if an opponent brings a conjuring list. Having played a conjuring list, my initial reaction is meh.

I am far concerned about the M missions, but that is another discussion.

Trasvi wrote:
How about:
Daemons still perils on any
doubles if trying to conjour daemons of a different god?

Or at least if a the cross god rivalry Tzeentch/Nurgle or Khorne/Slaanesh is attempted. It would be fluffy, but not that significant of a change.


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Da Butcha wrote:

 Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:

Summoner armies will simply take too long to play. Simply add the tournament rule of: Failure to play 4 turns is an auto loss for both players.

So you get punished for your opponent's army build/play style? Sounds fun!

Auto loss for both players if they don't complete 4 turns has been around for a while and is actually not that uncommon. Once that rule goes into place players either bring faster armies or step up their pace.

Deamons also don't have to be played slow. Initial set up is a bigger problems for deamons than conjuring. There are a lot of pro tricks like having checkboxes on your army lists for gifts and psychic powers to streamline set up. Most conjured units are CC only units so it's just a simple matter of deep strike and run.

Auto loss for both players if they don't complete 4 turns would only discourage players unfamiliar and slow with deamons from bringing them. It would actually effect horde lists like greentide or IG conscripts more than deamons.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
My suggestion:

May only successfully summon 1 daemon unit per turn.

Which is harsher than a 12 warp charge cap.

You really have no idea what you're talking about do you? If faced with a choice I would much rather only summon one unit per turn. A 12 WC limit is absolutely crippling to an army that relies on Psychic Powers to do the vast majority of its shooting.

In the 7E games I've played so far I've had to make decisions about whether to buff an expensive unit (usually a Daemon Prince) or continue shooting. In 6E I could get all my buff off with more reliability and still be able to shoot almost every Psychic shooting attack I had.

I played vs the daemon factory 3 times now. I went against it at 2500 with Dark Angels Unbound, 1850 Noise Marine deluxe, and 1500 Imperial guard with Astral Claws allies. All three times was a serious wipe for the daemon player.

For the sake of the worst case scenario I did not attempt to deny the witch on my second and third games. If your players understand target priority then these lists are seriously not a problem. The only list I can see having issues is a slow short ranged list that gives them time to build up. It seriously is being overestimated and youse guys are letting your imaginations get the best of you. Let the meta drive powergamers into buying two grand worth of daemons. Its good for the flgs, good for gw, and its good for me when I buy them for 1$/fig when they see how you need a two turn head start for it to be the win button it is imagined to be.

and if any of youse guys repeat that I had the most constructive idea I will deny it.

Hulk is right. The sky isn't falling, play a few games and see if everyone is over reacting. Everyone takes time to adjust and the knee jerk reaction has been to say summoning is OP. Adjust your play for a little while before deciding the rules need changing

 undertow wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
My suggestion:

May only successfully summon 1 daemon unit per turn.

Which is harsher than a 12 warp charge cap.

You really have no idea what you're talking about do you? If faced with a choice I would much rather only summon one unit per turn. A 12 WC limit is absolutely crippling to an army that relies on Psychic Powers to do the vast majority of its shooting.

In the 7E games I've played so far I've had to make decisions about whether to buff an expensive unit (usually a Daemon Prince) or continue shooting. In 6E I could get all my buff off with more reliability and still be able to shoot almost every Psychic shooting attack I had.

I will agree to disagree and will move on to say the arguement is a moot point because I already made the point that a 12 warp cap is a draconian house rule that I think should be avoided. Unless you want to argue that a 1 summoned unit per turn is a good idea it's pointless to debate if a 1 summoned unit/turn or 12 warp cap is the worst of 2 bad ideas that should both be avoided.

Time to go back on topic. The building consensus is that summoning is not broken, it is a hard counter for some static gunlines, and it has a huge laundry list of hard counters many of which are common in the meta. It's also poorly set up for most maelstrom missions.

I have heard some good ideas that might improve a tournament beyond addressing deamons that don't specifically target summoning.

 undertow wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
My suggestion:

May only successfully summon 1 daemon unit per turn.

Which is harsher than a 12 warp charge cap.

You really have no idea what you're talking about do you? If faced with a choice I would much rather only summon one unit per turn. A 12 WC limit is absolutely crippling to an army that relies on Psychic Powers to do the vast majority of its shooting.

In the 7E games I've played so far I've had to make decisions about whether to buff an expensive unit (usually a Daemon Prince) or continue shooting. In 6E I could get all my buff off with more reliability and still be able to shoot almost every Psychic shooting attack I had.

A 12 WC cap is going to do nothing beyond effectively ban Daemon armies from events, or else shoe-horn us into a very specific list.

12 charges for example is basically 2 castings of a maxed-out Flickering Fire. That can still be denied by everyone, and is only giving the Daemon player a total of 8D6 shots at either BS3 (Horrors) or BS4 (Tzheralds)
That's no Prescience, or Precognition on the LoC, nor is there any threat of Biomancy, or Telepathy going off, let alone any Malefic!

This is not Fantasy!
A cap there works due to how casting itself is very different, Wizards get to add their level to their attempts, Arcane Items are a thing, the Shooting phase is not nearly as deadly, etc...

I honestly have a feeling that people really haven't played more than 1 or 2 games, where they let the worst case scenario happen on purpose because they've already formed their opinions & biases...

Agree completely (though 2 max castings for flicker fire is generous on 12D6 honestly, more like 2 level 2 castings.) The psychic phase is really less powerful than people think, you get off way fewer powers than you did in 6th, summoning to be reliable is looking at throwing 7-9 dice at a power, (6 if you don't care about failing) and risking a ton of perils.

Breng77 wrote:
Agree completely (though 2 max castings for flicker fire is generous on 12D6 honestly, more like 2 level 2 castings.) The psychic phase is really less powerful than people think, you get off way fewer powers than you did in 6th, summoning to be reliable is looking at throwing 7-9 dice at a power, (6 if you don't care about failing) and risking a ton of perils.

6 dice is still quite do-able as you're into the 60%'ish success range, while risking only a roughly 26% chance of Perils.


With the way people are still carrying on about this whole thing mind, I'm thinking it's time to jut go and make those t-shirts! May something like; "I played Daemons when they sucked - now get off my Summoning and deal with it!"

65% which means you are faily likely to fail one out of 2 powers. Or at least get one off on minimum successes and watch your opponent chuck all their dice at it to possibly deny it (with bonuses if any), And if you fail the first cast, they throw all their dice at the second.

Played a 7th ed tournament this weekend, No Daemons made top 5.

626 and 77 You guys are making good points on why a 12 charge cap is a bad idea, but the idea never gained traction here. All I ever did with the idea of a 12 warp charge limit is use it as a bad idea benchmark to compare other bad ideas to.

A cap in general (or any fix at this point) is a bad idea I agree.

Correction I think at some point in time I also used it as the draconian doomsday scenario that we want to avoid.

 schadenfreude wrote:
626 and 77 You guys are making good points on why a 12 charge cap is a bad idea, but the idea never gained traction here. All I ever did with the idea of a 12 warp charge limit is use it as a bad idea benchmark to compare other bad ideas to.

Apologies - I never meant to imply that you were part of the "let's nerf Daemons into the ground because 'psychics = OP!1!!!1!" crowd.
Rather I was trying to simply point how utterly nonsensical and moronic a 12 Warp Charge cap would really be by pointing out just how quickly those charges can run out!

As a Tzeentch Daemon player, my psychics have gotten much, much worse overall.

Back in 6th, my 'psychic phase' would look like:
- Tzherald #1 casts Prescience
- Horrors cast Lv3 Flickering Fire
- Tzherald casts Lv2 Flickering Fire

- Tzherald #2 casts Prescience, Forewarning & Misfortune
- Horrors cast Lv3 Flickering Fire

- LoC casts Precognition, then Prescience on nearby Screamers
- LoC casts Misfortune on unit Flamers are about to light up!

That same set-up now is a total of D6 + 15 WC's. None of those powers will be single diced, meaning instead of getting a near guaranteed 10 powers off, I'm now looking at a solid shot of getting 5-7 of those powers off.
And my opponent now has a difficult choice to make too; they can save their smaller amount of dice and try to go after a couple of my buffs, something they had no ability to previously attempt! Or they can spend their dice on the potentially much easier to dispel shooting attacks/Maledictions.



Unfortunately, the Chicken Little crowd enjoys staying utterly ignorant of the changes while just decrying "Daemons broke 7th edition - AGAIN! lolzlolzlol!!"

Oddly enough it became possible to stop blessings and much harder overall to deny.

So if you go pure offense daemons things are actually much better for you. If they are light on psychic defenses then you will quickly reach the point where they have ZERO defenses against your casting where as before they always had a 16.6% chance to stop any power. In addition the more powerful the spell, the less able they are to stop it since instead of just needing one 6, they now need multiple 6s

So I find it funny how all the focus is on summoning as being game breaking when everything else seems more powerful to me.

 Leth wrote:
Oddly enough it became possible to stop blessings and much harder overall to deny.

So if you go pure offense daemons things are actually much better for you. If they are light on psychic defenses then you will quickly reach the point where they have ZERO defenses against your casting where as before they always had a 16.6% chance to stop any power. In addition the more powerful the spell, the less able they are to stop it since instead of just needing one 6, they now need multiple 6s

So I find it funny how all the focus is on summoning as being game breaking when everything else seems more powerful to me.

Alright I am gonna share some BS that I came up with that seems scarier to me than ANYTHING summoning based.

Cursed earth+Sanctuary = Grim on all units within 12.

There now bitch about that instead.

The real trick is going to simply be pulling a page from Fantasy's tactics; figure out which power your opponent is most scared of seeing go off this turn, cast it early and force them to blow their dispel dice, then go cast the powers you wanting all along!

I think this is where Malefic is at it's most powerful honestly - use it purely as the bluff spell lore!

I've found after my first few games that my Tzeentch army is still at its overall best when sticking to the tricks that made it click last edition - namely Divination and Biomancy with a sprinkling of Flickering Fires.
The really awesome part I've been finding though is that Horrors have gained a tone of utility now that they get Chaos Focus! No more choosing between Flickering Fire or Bolt, plus they can now use Infernal Gateway!

The issue with throwing a power early is that unless you get it off they don't need to deny it so if it is WC 2 or 3 you are throwing a lot of dice at it, and you fail you get screwed, if you throw only a few dice at it and fail then you just waste dice.

It is also not that much harder to stop targeted powers, especially if you had any buffs to your deny.

Essentially it became infinitely easier to deny a blessing this edition.

IT became easier to deny targeted powers in some cases (things that barely succeed can get more dice thrown at them.)

It became hard to deny things if your opponent succeeds by a lot.

So say I throw a WC 1 Flicker fire. IN 6th against a non-psyker this was denied 16% of the time.

Now if I only succeed with one 4+ it is much easier for my opponent to deny assuming he still has dice because he can throw 2+ dice at it.

Now if I throw it with 3 or more 4+ rolls, it becomes difficult to deny without luck, or buffs.




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Which means that throwing more dice is good as the caster, but then you cast fewer powers and perils more often.

Breng77 wrote:
The issue with throwing a power early is that unless you get it off they don't need to deny it so if it is WC 2 or 3 you are throwing a lot of dice at it, and you fail you get screwed, if you throw only a few dice at it and fail then you just waste dice.

It is also not that much harder to stop targeted powers, especially if you had any buffs to your deny.

Essentially it became infinitely easier to deny a blessing this edition.

IT became easier to deny targeted powers in some cases (things that barely succeed can get more dice thrown at them.)

It became hard to deny things if your opponent succeeds by a lot.

So say I throw a WC 1 Flicker fire. IN 6th against a non-psyker this was denied 16% of the time.

Now if I only succeed with one 4+ it is much easier for my opponent to deny assuming he still has dice because he can throw 2+ dice at it.

Now if I throw it with 3 or more 4+ rolls, it becomes difficult to deny without luck, or buffs.

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Which means that throwing more dice is good as the caster, but then you cast fewer powers and perils more often.

I've found so far that while I'm casting fewer things, I'm having stuff denied with far lower frequency. Especially when the opponent runs out of dispel dice and I can essentially free cast everything with no chance to Deny. Coupled with the ability to fire witchfires from the same source at different targets in addition to using any shooting attacks (if the Chaos Gods grant me any at the beginning of the game) and I don't think Daemons have lost too much shooting ability.

I'm still playing a Flying Circus build, although I've tweaked it a bit to add some more WC. I still play it mostly the same, I fly around and shoot and kill stuff, then land when I've made it safe to do so and the Princes kill what's left in CC. If I get Invisibility then a Prince lands and starts wrecking stuff a bit early.