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While true, it also means you never get more than one of each, so sure you get fortune as an automatic but you you were frequently getting it anyway, I have my doubts about the game being balanced around random anyway (it is not balanced around anything).

Also consider sure you get all your powers but only having one of most of them means it is easier for the opponent to try to shut down the important power. It is not perfect but it is far better than the potential of armies summoning hundreds of daemons per turn.

Also consider diminishing returns having lots of psykers is really going to have you running out of powers to take that are of much use.


[

No armies are going to be summoning 100's of daemons. At 7-9 warp charges per summoning, all but the most stacked armies will be trying to cast ~3 maximum. Plus trying to cast Cursed Earth twice, invisibility, etc. An army summoning more than 3 units of daemons is not going to be doing any damage to you, and you hopefully should have enough shooting to take out 20 T3 5++ models per turn...

Trasvi wrote:
No armies are going to be summoning 100's of daemons. At 7-9 warp charges per summoning, all but the most stacked armies will be trying to cast ~3 maximum. Plus trying to cast Cursed Earth twice, invisibility, etc. An army summoning more than 3 units of daemons is not going to be doing any damage to you, and you hopefully should have enough shooting to take out 20 T3 5++ models per turn...

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/05/24/warhammer-40k-7th-ed-video-bat-rep-daemons-vs-imperials/

6 units of 11 horrors.
4 lvl 3 heralds
Fateweaver
2 lvl 3 Deamon princes
Total=34 mastery levels.

Cursed earth and sacrifice are fine on 2 dice. 3 sacrifices and 2 cursed earths would be 10 dice leaving 32 leftover for 5 attempts at 6 dice to summon. That should summon 30 more models if 3 are successful and yield 6 more mastery levels in heralds from the sacrifices.

Front line gaming didn't even include an aegis. With an aegis gun lines won't be able to touch deamons without barrage or ignore cover because the Tzeentch deamons will g2g for a 2+ cover and they reroll 1s so it takes 36 wounds to kill a single T3 model.

The deamon factory will absolutely dominate gunline lists. That being said I'm totally ok with deamon factory entering the tournament scene because deamon factory has multiple hard counters including any and all fast close combat lists. White scar bikes, wraith wing, scarab farm, mechanized ork bumrush, dog pile, swarms of fast nid gribbles like gargoyles + hormagaunts, a pair of DE beast packs, ravenwing, 18 nurgle chaos spawn, and many others will land half the army or more into close combat on turn 2. Horrors and tzeentch heralds are very weak in CC, and deamonic instability is very unforgiving in CC. Warp quake from interceptors shunting into the army will also shut it down hard.

Because daemon factory has so many hard counters I don't think balls to the wall deamon factory will be a competitive 6th ed list.

^^ And that would be what I call the 'most stacked' list possible. And as you say, it has so many hard counters. And it is still summoning max 50 demons per turn - and on 6 dice you have a 35% failure rate, reasonably you're summoning 30.

Although I'm suprised you feel that fast combat armies would beat them. IMO, those armies could be suitably bogged in combat all game by summoning bubble-wrap units in between yourself and the enemy. Those white scar bikers will spend the entire game charging units of daemonettes, losing a model or two while wiping said daemonettes in combat, only to have a new unit summoned in front of them. Or a single unit of horrors - with Grimiore + cursed earth, 10 horrors could tarpit any unit in the game while you summon some bloodcrushers/fiends/whatevers behind them. Jetpack infantry would have a sightly easier time if they jump over the tarpitters, but that is assuming they actually manage to win in the first round of combat...

 Hulksmash wrote:
My proposed solution:

Play with 7th edition before talking about changing it.....

Jesus, can we wait the weekend before we start trying to change the new rule system.

No! It isn't wine, no time to 'let it breath'. There must be running around with arm waving, breast beating, and mass hysteria.

And a scapegoat. Maybe that handlebar moustache guy.

And a three day weekend is too long to wait anyway.

The universe (which is only 40k) must *make* sense, and Andrew is of the right mind! Get with the program, Brad!
...
Damn it.


Seriously, I'm going to give the daemon factory a trial run tomorrow with MikeFox. We'll chime in and let you know how it went. I will work the camera and bat rep it. We will see if my modest daemon collection can make IG summoners broken or not.

 Hulksmash wrote:
My proposed solution:

Play with 7th edition before talking about changing it.....

Jesus, can we wait the weekend before we start trying to change the new rule system. There is a massive diminishing return on summoning and psychic powers in general. This is being looked at in a vacuum without the consideration of what other armies can do and will do to adjust. Let the new rules breathe a bit before smothering them.

We will not know if psychic powers and/or summoning is broken for a month or two. This is a new edition and it takes a while for the meta game to fix, and counter new combos.

I am also not sure that summoning is broken. If you look at the batrep that everyone is pointing to as an example for how broken demons are they did not even win!!!

Trasvi wrote:
^^ And that would be what I call the 'most stacked' list possible. And as you say, it has so many hard counters. And it is still summoning max 50 demons per turn - and on 6 dice you have a 35% failure rate, reasonably you're summoning 30.

Although I'm suprised you feel that fast combat armies would beat them. IMO, those armies could be suitably bogged in combat all game by summoning bubble-wrap units in between yourself and the enemy. Those white scar bikers will spend the entire game charging units of daemonettes, losing a model or two while wiping said daemonettes in combat, only to have a new unit summoned in front of them. Or a single unit of horrors - with Grimiore + cursed earth, 10 horrors could tarpit any unit in the game while you summon some bloodcrushers/fiends/whatevers behind them. Jetpack infantry would have a sightly easier time if they jump over the tarpitters, but that is assuming they actually manage to win in the first round of combat...

White scar bikes have hit and run thus can't be tarpitted by the Grimiore. Hit and run would actually fling the bikes into the back ranks of horrors. Bubble wrap only needs a bike sized hole popped into it to multi assault a 2nd squad behind it.

The grimiored unit can be killed in a multi assault.

Squad A multi assaults the Grimiore'd unit with a 2++ reroll and a 2nd pink horror unit. Squad B assaults the 2nd pink horror unit. Squad A and the 2++ reroll horrors is uneventful with no wounds. Squad A + Squad B versus the 2nd unit of pink horrors slaughters the pink horrors. The grimiored squad then takes massive damage from deamonic instability.

Also the entire white scar army would be assaulting on turn 1 if they go 2nd or turn 2 if they go 1st. Other turn 2 assaults can include the contents of 5 ork battlewagons, 60 flesh hounds, 12 nurgle chaos spawn +6 khorne chaos spawn and the axe of blind fury on a juggy, 18 wraiths and 2 dlords, exc exc..the list is pretty extensive.

Thought of another counter. Coteaz can go in a GK land raider with an allied white scar IC to give it scout to go in with all the bikes. Assault with the contents on turn 2 and any deamons summoned next to coteaz's unit will get lite up with I've been expecting you.

Put a Warp CHarge Tax.

For each Summoned Deamon unit, you must sacrifice permanently a Warp CHarge to maintain their form into the material realm.

You have 3 Units?, you deduce till the end of the game 3 Warp charges of your pool.

It could be D3 WC.

Or 1 WC for Troops Deamons units, 2 WC for Elite/FA Deamons units and 3 for GD's.

Every tourney mission has the secondary mission of Killpoints! Now they are feeding their opponents score. Also does not change rules. Also does not have a down side for anyone.

I am running Dark Angels 9th company with a standard of devastation behind an aegis for 2500 points next week vs the daemon factory list. Sgt. Hudson 3rd squad might be screaming about how they're comming outta the emperor cursed walls... come get some

Is anybody available in the Long Beach/Orange county area in the day time to play test with or against a deamon factory?

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
My proposed solution:

Play with 7th edition before talking about changing it.....

Jesus, can we wait the weekend before we start trying to change the new rule system. There is a massive diminishing return on summoning and psychic powers in general. This is being looked at in a vacuum without the consideration of what other armies can do and will do to adjust. Let the new rules breathe a bit before smothering them.

We will not know if psychic powers and/or summoning is broken for a month or two. This is a new edition and it takes a while for the meta game to fix, and counter new combos.

I am also not sure that summoning is broken. If you look at the batrep that everyone is pointing to as an example for how broken demons are they did not even win!!!

The factory it's self is rather static and slow to seize objectives. It doesn't start to seize objectives and gain mobility until deamonetts are churned out. The list is also really going to suffer when playing mission cards because it will be unlikely to generate many VP in turn 1 or turn 2..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quientin wrote:
Every tourney mission has the secondary mission of Killpoints! Now they are feeding their opponents score. Also does not change rules. Also does not have a down side for anyone.

Broadside bash did a variation of that where every 3 KP gave a VP in objective based games. Going to add that to the OP.

 schadenfreude wrote:
The factory it's self is rather static and slow to seize objectives. It doesn't start to seize objectives and gain mobility until deamonetts are churned out. The list is also really going to suffer when playing mission cards because it will be unlikely to generate many VP in turn 1 or turn 2.. .

Very true. The all-out, 33WC summoning factory is extremely static.
I think a competitive but not overpowered summoning build might look more like this - taken from 40k Daemons Blog

Fateweaver
Tzerald, ML3, disc, grimoire
Tzerald, ML2, disc, portalglyph
11 Horrors
11 Horrors
6 Fiends
14 Flesh Hounds
9 Screamers
Be'lakor
10 Cultists
Bastion

This army presents credible threats to most units, is guaranteed to have at least one psyker with invisibility and shrouded, plus 2/4 models that can summon. Shroud+jink on the screamers, invis on the hounds, grimiore+cursed earth on the Fiends and you have 3 units that will reach combat by the second turn. Tzeralds summon in something (likely Bloodcrushers for combat punch or Horrors/plaguebearers for survivability), horrors summon in horrors in the back field.

I think that could actually be a reasonably balanced list... but I'm going to play a few games with it first

7th has been out for 3 days... I do not know of any tournies that have played this edition. The rumors were 85% inaccurate just like wood elves, and just like orks will be...

3 days... and people are already whining and crying about the rules. Really people give the game a chance FFS. Make all the list you want, but until anything is played at equal competitive levels over many many games, no one knows....

Trasvi wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
The factory it's self is rather static and slow to seize objectives. It doesn't start to seize objectives and gain mobility until deamonetts are churned out. The list is also really going to suffer when playing mission cards because it will be unlikely to generate many VP in turn 1 or turn 2.. .

Very true. The all-out, 33WC summoning factory is extremely static.
I think a competitive but not overpowered summoning build might look more like this - taken from 40k Daemons Blog

Fateweaver
Tzerald, ML3, disc, grimoire
Tzerald, ML2, disc, portalglyph
11 Horrors
11 Horrors
6 Fiends
14 Flesh Hounds
9 Screamers
Be'lakor
10 Cultists
Bastion

This army presents credible threats to most units, is guaranteed to have at least one psyker with invisibility and shrouded, plus 2/4 models that can summon. Shroud+jink on the screamers, invis on the hounds, grimiore+cursed earth on the Fiends and you have 3 units that will reach combat by the second turn. Tzeralds summon in something (likely Bloodcrushers for combat punch or Horrors/plaguebearers for survivability), horrors summon in horrors in the back field.

I think that could actually be a reasonably balanced list... but I'm going to play a few games with it first

That's closer to what I would expect to see for a competitive list. Only issue is horrors are limited to Tzeentch only powers and can't summon.

Why cant pink horrors use daemonology? It says right in the book every faction knows daemonology except bugs and then says Psykers with daemon special rule can manifest malefic....

No black library or FAQ required. Its spelled out clearly in the new rule book

 schadenfreude wrote:
That's closer to what I would expect to see for a competitive list. Only issue is horrors are limited to Tzeentch only powers and can't summon.

Any particular reasoning behind this?
I am seeing a lot of people say this, but to reach this conclusion you also have to reach the conclusion that NO psyker can roll on malefic, because horrors are worded in exactly the same way as a normal psyker.
Fateweaver and Be'lakor will (probably) not know Malefic, as their rules simply state 'Fateweaver knows all the spells from the Change Discipline'. Most other psykers - including Horrors - are given a list of disciplines to roll on - and if this is the case, they also know Malefic/Santic unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Horrors will thus roll on Change or Malefic - getting up to a potential 3 psychic powers (Flickering Fire from Chaos Focus, one roll on Malefic plus Summoning from Psychic Focus).

I think a strait cap on the number of dice you get per turn would solve a lot of problems. Thinking of seer councils and such as well as daemons.

 jy2 wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Here is my opinion, Ban all summoning powers

Can we also ban all markerlights because they're too good?

To be fair, Markerlights are not adding units (effectively increasing the number of points you get to play with vs your opponent), they're an added cost that increases the effectiveness of what's already on the table, not adding to what's on the table. Completely different story. Markerlights can't also potentially create yet more marketlights, while summoning Daemons can summon more Daemons.

Trasvi wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
That's closer to what I would expect to see for a competitive list. Only issue is horrors are limited to Tzeentch only powers and can't summon.

Any particular reasoning behind this?
I am seeing a lot of people say this, but to reach this conclusion you also have to reach the conclusion that NO psyker can roll on malefic, because horrors are worded in exactly the same way as a normal psyker.
Fateweaver and Be'lakor will (probably) not know Malefic, as their rules simply state 'Fateweaver knows all the spells from the Change Discipline'. Most other psykers - including Horrors - are given a list of disciplines to roll on - and if this is the case, they also know Malefic/Santic unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Horrors will thus roll on Change or Malefic - getting up to a potential 3 psychic powers (Flickering Fire from Chaos Focus, one roll on Malefic plus Summoning from Psychic Focus).

Pretty sure that chaos focus would prevent them from getting psychic focus else where as that rule states if you know an out of discipline power you don't get focus.

1. Maelstrom of War missions seem to literally be designed to prevent lists like this. Just play the missions, and this relatively slow army will struggle to catch up.
2. Let's wait until the FAQs come out, shall we? Psychic Defense is so far in 6th edition mode. Rune Priests may nerf this, or Shadow in the Warp may make this unfeasible.
3. Kill the units in question. He's going to ground? He's not grabbing objectives. See 1.
4. If you think this is a problem, grab 3x3 Wyverns. We've had PLENTY of broken lists before. Remember how broken it was when 9 Night Scythe lists were all the Internet rage? Here's a reminder. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/469911.page This army never won a GT as far as I know. I beat it myself, with Tyranids. It wasn't broken, because for all the pointlessness of shooting at it, it had low damage and struggled to clear objectives in order to claim them. I foresee the same problems with the Summoning Circle, and I imagine the high model count will prevent it from ever emerging, the exact same way that the old 10 Tervigon list never dominated at 2000. Literally, everytime a "killer list" emerges, the 40k community recognizes, watches the FLG BatReps (which are nice and informative) and then figure out how to counter it.

 jifel wrote:
1. Maelstrom of War missions seem to literally be designed to prevent lists like this. Just play the missions, and this relatively slow army will struggle to catch up.

I've seen this point come up a few times, and I've been museing over it.

I think you make a strong point, But I think sadly that might not be what realitiy is going to dictate. A problem that is going to come up, is that some TO's are just not going to want to use the maelstorm of war missions. Alot of TO's want everyone playing the same standard missions, that fit neatly into their excell sheets.

I know when I'm going to play 40k pick-up I'm totally going to use the maelstorm of war missions. They look great fun. But I just get a feeling looking at them, that TO's are just going to take one look at them and say "pass".

Breng77 wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
That's closer to what I would expect to see for a competitive list. Only issue is horrors are limited to Tzeentch only powers and can't summon.

Any particular reasoning behind this?
I am seeing a lot of people say this, but to reach this conclusion you also have to reach the conclusion that NO psyker can roll on malefic, because horrors are worded in exactly the same way as a normal psyker.
Fateweaver and Be'lakor will (probably) not know Malefic, as their rules simply state 'Fateweaver knows all the spells from the Change Discipline'. Most other psykers - including Horrors - are given a list of disciplines to roll on - and if this is the case, they also know Malefic/Santic unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Horrors will thus roll on Change or Malefic - getting up to a potential 3 psychic powers (Flickering Fire from Chaos Focus, one roll on Malefic plus Summoning from Psychic Focus).

Pretty sure that chaos focus would prevent them from getting psychic focus else where as that rule states if you know an out of discipline power you don't get focus.

RAW deamon codex only gives Tzeentch to horrors. RAW nobody can take 7th deamonology powers because their codex does not allow it. RAI is units with full access to powers can have access to deamonology while restricted units like horrors, gk henchmen psykers, and astropaths stay restricted. We won't know fore sure until the FAQ drops, but it's doubtful horrors will have access. 6th ed deamon codex is pretty specific that they only have access to Tzeentch.

Let's pause for a moment to consider an army of Raven Guard tacticals in Rhinos, combat squadded, completely uncontestable by anything but troops of your own before we go declaring summoning to be a problem.

 schadenfreude wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
That's closer to what I would expect to see for a competitive list. Only issue is horrors are limited to Tzeentch only powers and can't summon.

Any particular reasoning behind this?
I am seeing a lot of people say this, but to reach this conclusion you also have to reach the conclusion that NO psyker can roll on malefic, because horrors are worded in exactly the same way as a normal psyker.
Fateweaver and Be'lakor will (probably) not know Malefic, as their rules simply state 'Fateweaver knows all the spells from the Change Discipline'. Most other psykers - including Horrors - are given a list of disciplines to roll on - and if this is the case, they also know Malefic/Santic unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Horrors will thus roll on Change or Malefic - getting up to a potential 3 psychic powers (Flickering Fire from Chaos Focus, one roll on Malefic plus Summoning from Psychic Focus).

Pretty sure that chaos focus would prevent them from getting psychic focus else where as that rule states if you know an out of discipline power you don't get focus.

RAW deamon codex only gives Tzeentch to horrors. RAW nobody can take 7th deamonology powers because their codex does not allow it. RAI is units with full access to powers can have access to deamonology while restricted units like horrors, gk henchmen psykers, and astropaths stay restricted. We won't know fore sure until the FAQ drops, but it's doubtful horrors will have access. 6th ed deamon codex is pretty specific that they only have access to Tzeentch.

The brand new rule book says ALL PSYKERS can generate spells from deamonology... the brand new book says ALL, except tyrannids.. They all have access. Stop with the RAW, RAI grey area BS... Anyone right now, except tyranids. No need for an FAQ, no need for an errata. Its the countless, pointless, grey area arguments like this that has caused 7th edition to come out so fast. "Dear GW does 'all' supersede some? But with the exception of most? Blah blah"... Really GW must have a field day at the office reading some of their FAQ questions. They printed a brand new book, it came out 3 days ago. Again it clearly states all PSYKERS except tyrannids can generate powers from deamonology. PERIOD, Done, end of sentence... A Brand new book says this.

On the Maelstrom of War issue, I talked with a TO today while I played him. We used the normal old missions, but if you preset when each card is drawn it makes more sense. Example: Turn 1, both players receive the "Overwhelming Firepower" card turn 2, both players receive "secure objective 1" and "secure objective 6". If a GT used 3 Maelstrom of War missions and 3 Eternal war Missions, it would be supremely balanced with preset cards to eliminate useless ones.

Tsilber wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
That's closer to what I would expect to see for a competitive list. Only issue is horrors are limited to Tzeentch only powers and can't summon.

Any particular reasoning behind this?
I am seeing a lot of people say this, but to reach this conclusion you also have to reach the conclusion that NO psyker can roll on malefic, because horrors are worded in exactly the same way as a normal psyker.
Fateweaver and Be'lakor will (probably) not know Malefic, as their rules simply state 'Fateweaver knows all the spells from the Change Discipline'. Most other psykers - including Horrors - are given a list of disciplines to roll on - and if this is the case, they also know Malefic/Santic unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Horrors will thus roll on Change or Malefic - getting up to a potential 3 psychic powers (Flickering Fire from Chaos Focus, one roll on Malefic plus Summoning from Psychic Focus).

Pretty sure that chaos focus would prevent them from getting psychic focus else where as that rule states if you know an out of discipline power you don't get focus.

RAW deamon codex only gives Tzeentch to horrors. RAW nobody can take 7th deamonology powers because their codex does not allow it. RAI is units with full access to powers can have access to deamonology while restricted units like horrors, gk henchmen psykers, and astropaths stay restricted. We won't know fore sure until the FAQ drops, but it's doubtful horrors will have access. 6th ed deamon codex is pretty specific that they only have access to Tzeentch.

The brand new rule book says ALL PSYKERS can generate spells from deamonology... the brand new book says ALL, except tyrannids.. They all have access. Stop with the RAW, RAI grey area BS... Anyone right now, except tyranids. No need for an FAQ, no need for an errata. Its the countless, pointless, grey area arguments like this that has caused 7th edition to come out so fast. "Dear GW does 'all' supersede some? But with the exception of most? Blah blah"... Really GW must have a field day at the office reading some of their FAQ questions. They printed a brand new book, it came out 3 days ago. Again it clearly states all PSYKERS except tyrannids can generate powers from deamonology. PERIOD, Done, end of sentence... A Brand new book says this.

And GK rhinos can cast vortex of doom. If you're buying pink horrors with the expectation the FAQ will rule that way and that TO will also rule that way you might be dissapointed.

They went down the same road in 6th and then FAQ'd that GK vehicles and psykers don't have access to book powers.

Also to be asinine along with RAW which is very often asinine. Codex trumps main rulebook. All 6th ed codex rules are very specific about which main book powers are available for each unit, and none of them specifically mention deamonology so nobody can use it because codex trumps the main rulebook.

We're having a disagreement about RAI so there is nothing to do but wait for the FAQ and go with whatever a TO decides.

I do not think that demon summoning is broken.

16 Horrors
1 Herald of Tzeentch Level 3 Psycher

(3 Warp Charges each)

6th edition:
8D6 Strength 5 (or 6) shots
Or 7D6 shots + Prescience


7th Edition
6 Warp Charges+1 Pool Dice=
77% chance to summon 10 Demons

So to sum up:
You can either kill 100 points of your opponent's army, or you can summon 100 points worth of demons.

Not only that but...
#1. You have a lower chance to cast your powers
#2. You are not damaging your opponent
#3. Your opponent is shooting you and crippling your warp charges
#4. You are going to eat a lot of PotW
#5. Grey Knights and Eldar will shut you down with DtW


You will find out that the demon bomb army is not as good as everyone thinks.

 Blackmoor wrote:
I do not think that demon summoning is broken.

16 Horrors
1 Herald of Tzeentch Level 3 Psycher

(3 Warp Charges each)

6th edition:
8D6 Strength 5 (or 6) shots
Or 7D6 shots + Prescience


7th Edition
6 Warp Charges+1 Pool Dice=
77% chance to summon 10 Demons

So to sum up:
You can either kill 100 points of your opponent's army, or you can summon 100 points worth of demons.

Not only that but...
#1. You have a lower chance to cast your powers
#2. You are not damaging your opponent
#3. Your opponent is shooting you and crippling your warp charges
#4. You are going to eat a lot of PotW
#5. Grey Knights and Eldar will shut you down with DtW

You will find out that the demon bomb army is not as good as everyone thinks.

If you eliminate #3 from the equation because of horrors going to ground for a 2+ rerollable cover behind an aegis static gunlines will be terrorized by the deamon factory.

The problem with the argument I just made is it only encourages a TO to allow conjuring, encourages people not to run a static gun line, and could cause summoning to improve the meta.

 schadenfreude wrote:
And GK rhinos can cast vortex of doom.

No. They cannot. This is also covered by the new rules book. Just read the rules.

Cmon People... really. We need to read it or find a new hobby lol. Because this misconstrue of the rules time and time again and the need to argue the greyest and vaguest ideas we can possible think off is tiresome, especially in most cases just to argue....
T.O.'s and GW executives musty have good laughs. I would love for GW to print a new book. " GW hobbiest say the dumbest things"

Also I am not saying it doesnt exist, and not being cryptic with this next part but I did not see in the new rule book "Codex trumps rulebook", so im not sure that argument is valid either... I did not bother to look for it because a new rule book printed in reference to older books, using a sentence with 'ALL' in it, should be clear cut and dry. Shame on me for thinking so i guess.... well not really.

The new rule book clearly says. " All psykers can generate powers from demonology"... PERIOD. I think the only grey area that could even be an argument is if a psyker doesnt generate powers like Bel'Akor, he just knows X,Y,Z. The new rules says "Grey Knights know demonology in addition" . So this covers them, then the psychic vehicle covers rhinos. Again No FAQ required, stop thinking GW is out to get us or confuse or hurt us in some way.

Reading the New Rulebook + common sense + sportsmanship = fun 40k.

Also FYI
Blackmoor is correct and has spelled it out pretty easily.
I personally think Tyrannids and Necrons got biggest buffs in this new rules set, 2 armies that can't cast deamonology.

And in the end i wouldnt be upset or dissapointed however they nerfed, ruled or tweeked deamonology personally. My Daemon army that I won Tempelcon with does not change a single point with the new rules, Wont even bother with Daemonology.

 Blackmoor wrote:
I do not think that demon summoning is broken.

16 Horrors
1 Herald of Tzeentch Level 3 Psycher

(3 Warp Charges each)

6th edition:
8D6 Strength 5 (or 6) shots
Or 7D6 shots + Prescience


7th Edition
6 Warp Charges+1 Pool Dice=
77% chance to summon 10 Demons

So to sum up:
You can either kill 100 points of your opponent's army, or you can summon 100 points worth of demons.

Not only that but...
#1. You have a lower chance to cast your powers
#2. You are not damaging your opponent
#3. Your opponent is shooting you and crippling your warp charges
#4. You are going to eat a lot of PotW
#5. Grey Knights and Eldar will shut you down with DtW

You will find out that the demon bomb army is not as good as everyone thinks.

Well now I'm worried I might be wrong. Blackmoor and I are agreeing and seeing something the same way. What the heck

Pretty much everything Blackmoor said with the addition of:

6th edition army mindsets looking at summoning could see it as broken. I get that. But with scoring being opened up it's no longer a game of surviving to kill your opponents troops and hiding just one of yours where deathstars excel. Now everything scores (some better than others but everything does score). That is going to shift the game back to a more MSU approach since giving deathstars more targets than they can handle is a great way of handling deathstars. And with a ton of units you get the ability to shoot lots of units. Meaning you can cripple the herald/troop portions of a summoning farm fairly quickly and easily. Especially since they won't be shooting back at you.

Just something to consider.