Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I thought it was pretty clear...it states in bold that the number of powers a psykers can use each turned is determined by his mastery level.

The roll a model needs in order to hit something it shoots at is similarly determined by its BS value.

The thing is, without anything saying how it is determined, that statement is meaningless. You need an explanation as to how to apply that value before you get a rule that you can use.

Unseeablething wrote:

WrentheFaceless wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
Point is, it's worded just vaguely enough that we cannot be sure what they meant. Would it have been so hard to say a ML1 psyker may only cast one power per turn, etc. Too bad they didn't include an example or two. Personally, I prefer your interpretation, but just cannot be sure that it is the correct one.

Its not all that vague, to perform a power, you pick the psyker who is casting it, then the limitation comes in because you've picked a psyker.

extremefreak17 wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
Point is, it's worded just vaguely enough that we cannot be sure what they meant. Would it have been so hard to say a ML1 psyker may only cast one power per turn, etc. Too bad they didn't include an example or two. Personally, I prefer your interpretation, but just cannot be sure that it is the correct one.

Pretty clear to me. For example, a ML 2 Psycher will not always have 3 powers. If my Spiritseer rolls once on Rune of Battle, and once on Telepathy, he now has generated only 2 powers. Here we can see that the amount of powers generated are actually a variable number within the same mastery level. My mastery level is determining how many I can cast, NOT how many powers I end up generating.

"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."
Well, my Master Level lets me generate Psychic powers equal to my level with a potential to have one more because it's focused.
In my opinion, I read this as I can cast all the powers I successfully have because of my Mastery Level and Focus.

Focus is a bonus that allows him to know more powers than his mastery level, it doesnt mean he can cast all of them, a ML 2 guy can still only cast two powers even if he knows 3 Per "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."

Doesnt say anything about adding the bonus power from Focus to his mastery level.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Focus is a bonus that allows him to know more powers than his mastery level, it doesnt mean he can cast all of them, a ML 2 guy can still only cast two powers even if he knows 3 Per "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."

Doesnt say anything about adding the bonus power from Focus to his mastery level.

It depends on your Mastery Level.
How? How does it depend on your Mastery Level? Your assumption that it is equal to his Mastery Level is exactly as correct as my assumption that you can cast your Mastery Level squared powers per turn.
Both use the exact same sentence for rules support. Prove yours is correct and mine is not.

This is getting confusing for me, so let my try to clarify so I understand

The number of powers a psyker can manifest during his psychic phase is either:

1. The same number as his mastery level, but not the same power twice (page 22, mastery level, Use in this case means manifest)

2. As many as he knows provided you have enough warp charges, but not the same power twice (page 24, no other restrictions are listet under manifesting psychic powers)

rigeld2 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Focus is a bonus that allows him to know more powers than his mastery level, it doesnt mean he can cast all of them, a ML 2 guy can still only cast two powers even if he knows 3 Per "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."

Doesnt say anything about adding the bonus power from Focus to his mastery level.

It depends on your Mastery Level.
How? How does it depend on your Mastery Level? Your assumption that it is equal to his Mastery Level is exactly as correct as my assumption that you can cast your Mastery Level squared powers per turn.
Both use the exact same sentence for rules support. Prove yours is correct and mine is not.

As much as I'd love to cast more than my level, the way interpret it is that it is equal to his mastery level.

Point to note -it's HIWPI and my opinion of RAI. I think RAW it's incredibly ambiguous with no specific indication.

Like I said, I'd play it as limited to the mastery level. But if my opponent wanted to play it the other way, then bonus....I get to cast more! Safest option.

Being apparently ambiguous, I'd play it like Khaine.

Unseeablething wrote:

WrentheFaceless wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
Point is, it's worded just vaguely enough that we cannot be sure what they meant. Would it have been so hard to say a ML1 psyker may only cast one power per turn, etc. Too bad they didn't include an example or two. Personally, I prefer your interpretation, but just cannot be sure that it is the correct one.

Its not all that vague, to perform a power, you pick the psyker who is casting it, then the limitation comes in because you've picked a psyker.

extremefreak17 wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
Point is, it's worded just vaguely enough that we cannot be sure what they meant. Would it have been so hard to say a ML1 psyker may only cast one power per turn, etc. Too bad they didn't include an example or two. Personally, I prefer your interpretation, but just cannot be sure that it is the correct one.

Pretty clear to me. For example, a ML 2 Psycher will not always have 3 powers. If my Spiritseer rolls once on Rune of Battle, and once on Telepathy, he now has generated only 2 powers. Here we can see that the amount of powers generated are actually a variable number within the same mastery level. My mastery level is determining how many I can cast, NOT how many powers I end up generating.

"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level."
Well, my Master Level lets me generate Psychic powers equal to my level with a potential to have one more because it's focused.
In my opinion, I read this as I can cast all the powers I successfully have because of my Mastery Level and Focus.

The problem with this logic is that the Psychic Focus rule has nothing to do with mastery level. "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level." It does not say, "depends on how many powers he generated" or, "depends on whether he gained Psychic Focus." Does your Mastery level change when you generate an additional power due to Psychic Focus? The answer is no.

 Limbo wrote:
This is getting confusing for me, so let my try to clarify so I understand

The number of powers a psyker can manifest during his psychic phase is either:

1. The same number as his mastery level, but not the same power twice (page 22, mastery level, Use in this case means manifest)

2. As many as he knows provided you have enough warp charges, but not the same power twice (page 24, no other restrictions are listet under manifesting psychic powers)

I'd go with 1. It's a safer assumption.
One-discipline Psykers (or chaos dudes) are like Wizards from D&D 3.5 - they know more spells than they can cast.

 insaniak wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I thought it was pretty clear...it states in bold that the number of powers a psykers can use each turned is determined by his mastery level.

The roll a model needs in order to hit something it shoots at is similarly determined by its BS value.

The thing is, without anything saying how it is determined, that statement is meaningless. You need an explanation as to how to apply that value before you get a rule that you can use.

This is a good point. Knowing that my model is BS3, and knowing nothing else, I could interpret that to mean I need a 3+ To Hit on a D6. This is not the case, but I only know that because I am told specifically how to calculate it.

However, I think the precedent in several codices of PML1 Psyker units having set powers (and not generating any), which set powers include the Primaris Power, shows two things:
1. Units with predetermined psychic powers don't get Psychic Focus (because the FAQ had to specify that the unit knows the primaris).
2. The value of the PML {0, 1, 2, 3, 4} determines how many powers a unit may cast per turn, in a 1:1 correlation.

Psychic units, like GKSS, who are a Brotherhood of Psykers (and thus PML1), who know two set powers and do not get Psychic Focus (because one of the powers is already the Primaris). They don't know PML+1 powers, they know 2 powers and are PML1. Hemlocks don't know PML+1 powers, they know 1 power and are PML1.
Thus, you may cast as many powers as you have PMLs.

Why the BRB couldn't just have that sentence, I don't know.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Limbo wrote:
This is getting confusing for me, so let my try to clarify so I understand

The number of powers a psyker can manifest during his psychic phase is either:

1. The same number as his mastery level, but not the same power twice (page 22, mastery level, Use in this case means manifest)

2. As many as he knows provided you have enough warp charges, but not the same power twice (page 24, no other restrictions are listet under manifesting psychic powers)

I'd go with 1. It's a safer assumption.
One-discipline Psykers (or chaos dudes) are like Wizards from D&D 3.5 - they know more spells than they can cast.

Wouldn't option 1 take away from part where you can get so many warp charges? For me, the fact that you get D6 + (army total master level) warp charges seemed to say: "You can either spend alot of charges on one spell that's really usefull right now for a higher chance of success, or you can spread your charges evenly and hope to manifest alot of powers".

More randomness..

If each of Fateweavers heads count as a Lv4 Psyker, does that mean he generates 8 warpcharges?

 grendel083 wrote:
More randomness..

If each of Fateweavers heads count as a Lv4 Psyker, does that mean he generates 8 warpcharges?

I believe the special rule says yo pick one, then generate warpcharges. not sure though.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

Unseeablething wrote:

In my opinion, I read this as I can cast all the powers I successfully have because of my Mastery Level and Focus.

What about Psychic units, like GKSS, who are a Brotherhood of Psykers (and thus PML1), who know two set powers and do not get Psychic Focus (because one of the powers is already the Primaris)?

It's kind of roped into, they know both, why not use both.

We use to generate warp charges EVERY TURN. That means we were able to cast on an opponent's turn(sometimes) and even activate our force weapons(which are now blessings)on their turn. Now this is all done only on our turn.

I find it too weak to limit a ML1 to only one power. You already have to use extra dice to reliably get a WC1 ability off, why stop the casting at one spell.

On the other side of the fence: It makes sense you cast spells 1 for 1. It's what we're used to. Also, it would explain why psychic casting is limited per spell per unit and not per model(to discourage having one man with a lot of spells being in a group of psykers). Psychic focus could just be there for options, to get rid of the luck of the draw abilities.

 grendel083 wrote:
More randomness..

If each of Fateweavers heads count as a Lv4 Psyker, does that mean he generates 8 warpcharges?

Someone just pointed out to me the rest of Fatey's entry, which specifies that he only generates 4WC. It really burst my balloon.

how hard is it, it says you cast as many spells as you are ML, you have a ML2 caster it casts 2 spells.

A caster with a force weapon that is ml2 can potentially have 4 spells to cast, but can only cast two because he is ML2. NOT HARD AT ALL, and to be truthful, you need serious help if you believe otherwise.

 Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
how hard is it, it says you cast as many spells as you are ML, you have a ML2 caster it casts 2 spells.

That's not what it says though.

 Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
how hard is it, it says you cast as many spells as you are ML, you have a ML2 caster it casts 2 spells.

A caster with a force weapon that is ml2 can potentially have 4 spells to cast, but can only cast two because he is ML2. NOT HARD AT ALL, and to be truthful, you need serious help if you believe otherwise.

Sure, if you make up rules you can make it sound really easy and to be truthful, be rude to people all you want.
That's not actually what the rule says though and I'd prefer to play by the actual rules than AdmiralGeneralAladeen40k.

 Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
how hard is it, it says you cast as many spells as you are ML, you have a ML2 caster it casts 2 spells.

While I agree with you, the bolded part isn't in the rules - not even as an example. This has created some confusion among the players; the facts that you use a floating resource (WC) to cast and that a model can know more powers than its ML adds up to this.

For a normal Psyker, though, ML determines the number of powers that he knows (focused or not, the number is determined by ML) and that limits the number of powers he can use since a power can't be used twice. ML2. Know two powers. Can only use two powers since you can' dup in a turn. Thus ML determines the number of powers a Psyker uses in a turn. Choose to focus and gain an extra power as a bonus. Have a force weapon, gain an extra power. Regardless, ML determines the number of powers you can use in a turn.

text removed.


Please don't speak to other users like this.

Reds8n

How about where it says: "If, After attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit... but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic Phase." No mention of a limit based on ML, just a flat, if you have warp charges, and you have uncast powers you can keep going until you run out of one or the other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only time the new BRB references ML, is in determining how many powers you generate, which with Focus can easily exceed your ML, and when determining how many warp charges you have in a phase (total of MLs +d6). After that ML has no bearing cause it's already done its job, twice over. It is not reference any where in the actual casting sections of the psychic phase cause it is no longer relevant. The only relevant factors are, do you have Warp Charges left, and do know powers that haven't been cast yet?

The focus thing only allows you to have an extra power, not cast an extra power. A mastery level one psyker from codex space marines will have 3 powers if he goes all in on let's say prescience. Force, primaris, and the randomly generated spell he rolled for.

Now if he uses any one of the 3 he has in his psychic phase he is done casting. That's it not vague just very simple. A psyker can cast 1 per mastery level. Period.

Look to the bolded text under the heading mastery levels, in the psychic phase section of the 7 the edition brb. It's so clear it's ridicules.

Lungpickle wrote:
A psyker can cast 1 per mastery level. Period.

Find a rule that says that.

“The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level. Iirc I'm quoting from memory.

Lungpickle wrote:
“The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level. Iirc I'm quoting from memory.

The point that several others (insaniak and rigeld, I think) are making is that, without further details, we don't know what correlation that dependency is.
It could be a 1:1 correlation, where you may cast one power per PML. But it could also be a 1:5 correlation, where you may cast five powers per PML. The rules do not specify.

I believe RAI to be 1:1. That's HIWPI, and I hope that's HEWPI (everyone). But RAW....it's undefined.

Lungpickle wrote:
“The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level. Iirc I'm quoting from memory.

That is what it says. But it doesn't say it is a one-to-one dependence.
Eg - y = x*x . Y depends on X. But Y does not = X.
It also works as an indirect dependence. The number of powers cast depends on the mastery level (because the mastery level changes how many warp charges you have).

IMO the proper reading of that sentence is just flavour text.

Wow just wow..

Whether or not you can cast more powers is dependent on whether you have known powers you haven't used yet, or warp charges remaining. Both of those things are dependent on your ML.

There for the number of powers you can cast per turn IS dependent on your mastery level. And that rule is met. So unless you have another rule stating a one to one relationship, we are left with a caster can keep throwing out powers so long as he knows more powers and hasn't used up the warp charge pool for the turn.

Problem with that terrible logic is that you're suggesting that focusing powers allows you to cast more of them each turn. You're arbitrarily granting those with more powers due to a dependence on a single discipline the ability to spam.

While you can argue over what "dependent" means till you're blue, in no way do the rules grant you the ability to use unlimited powers either. You can use the same half-assed logic that you are using to denounce the word "dependent" and apply it to your use of the manifesting next power clause.

Ergo, you either accept that the rules haven't change since sixth edition and the rules specify the dependency on mastery level as they always have and half indicate, or you admit that the rules are unclear either way and the status is undefined, to which either house rules get applied or we take the Common Sense approach and go with whatever it was in the last edition (mastery level).

It cannot be conclusively stated one way or another.

Time to lawyer in.

"The number of psychic powers a Psycher can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level". BWB (Big White Book?), page 22, paragraph 4.

This can be interpreted in two obvious ways:

1) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is equal to his Mastery Level. Note that the wording of the rule uses the word "depends", rather than "is equal to". They are not the same thing, and the rulebook does not state with clarity that a Mastery Level 1 Psyker can only cast one Psychic Power per turn.

The fact that option 1) is not clear opens the door to a second interpretation:

2) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is determined in some way by his Mastery Level, but that determination is not listed in that paragraph. The implied extension is that the Psyker only knows a certain number of powers (based on his Mastery Level), and that this is how the number of Psychic Powers he can cast "depends on his Mastery Level".



No-one here has authority to rule if the correct play is 1 or 2, so we just need to wait for an FAQ.

Kyutaru wrote:
Ergo, you either accept that the rules haven't change since sixth edition and the rules specify the dependency on mastery level as they always have and half indicate, or you admit that the rules are unclear either way and the status is undefined, to which either house rules get applied or we take the Common Sense approach and go with whatever it was in the last edition (mastery level).

I was with you on your second choice, up to the point where you enforced your preference on the world. What you should have said was:

"or you admit that the rules are unclear either way and the status is undefined, to which either house rules get applied or we take the Common Sense approach and go with whatever the players agree on for the game (or roll off)."

Importing rules from the last edition has nothing to do with common sense, just what you would prefer the rules to be at the moment.

Kyutaru wrote:
Problem with that terrible logic is that you're suggesting that focusing powers allows you to cast more of them each turn. You're arbitrarily granting those with more powers due to a dependence on a single discipline the ability to spam.

While you can argue over what "dependent" means till you're blue, in no way do the rules grant you the ability to use unlimited powers either. You can use the same half-assed logic that you are using to denounce the word "dependent" and apply it to your use of the manifesting next power clause.

Ergo, you either accept that the rules haven't change since sixth edition and the rules specify the dependency on mastery level as they always have and half indicate, or you admit that the rules are unclear either way and the status is undefined, to which either house rules get applied or we take the Common Sense approach and go with whatever it was in the last edition (mastery level).

And the problem with your logic is that the only justification for it is "that's how it worked in 6th ed" When, psychic powers are the thing that has changed the most since 6th ed, that is a very weak stance to take. The quote you are holding on to isn't specific enough to justify either interpretation, and therefor you have to go further into the chapter to find the meaning... which is exactly what I have done.

Xyptc wrote:
It cannot be conclusively stated one way or another.

Time to lawyer in.

"The number of psychic powers a Psycher can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level". BWB (Big White Book?), page 22, paragraph 4.

This can be interpreted in two obvious ways:

1) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is equal to his Mastery Level. Note that the wording of the rule uses the word "depends", rather than "is equal to". They are not the same thing, and the rulebook does not state with clarity that a Mastery Level 1 Psyker can only cast one Psychic Power per turn.

The fact that option 1) is not clear opens the door to a second interpretation:

2) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is determined in some way by his Mastery Level, but that determination is not listed in that paragraph. The implied extension is that the Psyker only knows a certain number of powers (based on his Mastery Level), and that this is how the number of Psychic Powers he can cast "depends on his Mastery Level".



No-one here has authority to rule if the correct play is 1 or 2, so we just need to wait for an FAQ.
[...]

Thank you!

the number of powers he can casts depends on his mastery level, as he can only cast the powers he knows, and he only knows so many powers.

the number of units you can take in a game depends on the points - a 2000 point game does not mean I can take 2000 units.

oddly now ork weirdboys are to most proficient psykers, capable of casting 6 powers a turn as a level 1 psyker. 'course you'd get at most 1 dice per power, and have to roll randomly to see which one you get, and can't cast the same one twice. and one means you explode. but allied with chaos and if chaos, for some reason, don't use any of their own powers, he'd have more dice to play with.

makes denials odd if you don't know whether you're firing a witchfire or a blessing until after the psychic test is passed though. guessing until the new 'dex comes out, i'll have to roll my charges, determine the power, pick a target and then let them deny.

go orks, breaking the new rules thoroughly from the safety of 4th edition!

nothing states that a psyker can cast the number of powers equal to his level, only that it depends.

 some bloke wrote:
oddly now ork weirdboys are to most proficient psykers, capable of casting 6 powers a turn as a level 1 psyker. 'course you'd get at most 1 dice per power, and have to roll randomly to see which one you get, and can't cast the same one twice. and one means you explode. but allied with chaos and if chaos, for some reason, don't use any of their own powers, he'd have more dice to play with.

makes denials odd if you don't know whether you're firing a witchfire or a blessing until after the psychic test is passed though. guessing until the new 'dex comes out, i'll have to roll my charges, determine the power, pick a target and then let them deny.

go orks, breaking the new rules thoroughly from the safety of 4th edition!

nothing states that a psyker can cast the number of powers equal to his level, only that it depends.

Weirdboys are now Psyker (Mastery Level 1) and must roll on Daemonology., so at most they have 2 powers.

Just like Eldar Warlocks.

Who will soon be dying in droves due to Perils just to summon Greater Unclean Ones.


Or Lords of Change.

Xyptc wrote:
It cannot be conclusively stated one way or another.

Time to lawyer in.

"The number of psychic powers a Psycher can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level". BWB (Big White Book?), page 22, paragraph 4.

This can be interpreted in two obvious ways:

1) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is equal to his Mastery Level. Note that the wording of the rule uses the word "depends", rather than "is equal to". They are not the same thing, and the rulebook does not state with clarity that a Mastery Level 1 Psyker can only cast one Psychic Power per turn.

It also does not state that lvl 1 psyker can cast more than 1 psychic power per turn. So there we are. Based on the rule you quoted, which would be more probable?

2) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is determined in some way by his Mastery Level, but that determination is not listed in that paragraph. The implied extension is that the Psyker only knows a certain number of powers (based on his Mastery Level), and that this is how the number of Psychic Powers he can cast "depends on his Mastery Level".

You make a sudden leap from "how many powers can be cast" to "can cast as many powers as he knows" without any support by the rules. Yes, the Psyker can know more powers than what his ML is, but it is not supported anywhere in written form that it would be the number of powers he could also cast.

Naw wrote:

Xyptc wrote:
It cannot be conclusively stated one way or another.

Time to lawyer in.

"The number of psychic powers a Psycher can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level". BWB (Big White Book?), page 22, paragraph 4.

This can be interpreted in two obvious ways:

1) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is equal to his Mastery Level. Note that the wording of the rule uses the word "depends", rather than "is equal to". They are not the same thing, and the rulebook does not state with clarity that a Mastery Level 1 Psyker can only cast one Psychic Power per turn.

It also does not state that lvl 1 psyker can cast more than 1 psychic power per turn. So there we are. Based on the rule you quoted, which would be more probable?

2) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is determined in some way by his Mastery Level, but that determination is not listed in that paragraph. The implied extension is that the Psyker only knows a certain number of powers (based on his Mastery Level), and that this is how the number of Psychic Powers he can cast "depends on his Mastery Level".

You make a sudden leap from "how many powers can be cast" to "can cast as many powers as he knows" without any support by the rules. Yes, the Psyker can know more powers than what his ML is, but it is not supported anywhere in written form that it would be the number of powers he could also cast.

How about this support in the rules: "If, After attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit" (BRB pg. 24 last paragraph under the first column)

Nowhere in that paragraph, or any other does it say you have to stop after you've cast some number of powers, it only says to stop if you run out of charges, and that you can't cast the same power twice.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:


The point that several others (insaniak and rigeld, I think) are making is that, without further details, we don't know what correlation that dependency is.

This.

To be clear, I fully believe that they intended for it to be a straight 1:1 correlation. But the rule as written simply doesn't give us that information.

chanceafs wrote:

Naw wrote:

Xyptc wrote:
It cannot be conclusively stated one way or another.

Time to lawyer in.

"The number of psychic powers a Psycher can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level". BWB (Big White Book?), page 22, paragraph 4.

This can be interpreted in two obvious ways:

1) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is equal to his Mastery Level. Note that the wording of the rule uses the word "depends", rather than "is equal to". They are not the same thing, and the rulebook does not state with clarity that a Mastery Level 1 Psyker can only cast one Psychic Power per turn.

It also does not state that lvl 1 psyker can cast more than 1 psychic power per turn. So there we are. Based on the rule you quoted, which would be more probable?

2) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is determined in some way by his Mastery Level, but that determination is not listed in that paragraph. The implied extension is that the Psyker only knows a certain number of powers (based on his Mastery Level), and that this is how the number of Psychic Powers he can cast "depends on his Mastery Level".

You make a sudden leap from "how many powers can be cast" to "can cast as many powers as he knows" without any support by the rules. Yes, the Psyker can know more powers than what his ML is, but it is not supported anywhere in written form that it would be the number of powers he could also cast.

How about this support in the rules: "If, After attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit" (BRB pg. 24 last paragraph under the first column)

Nowhere in that paragraph, or any other does it say you have to stop after you've cast some number of powers, it only says to stop if you run out of charges, and that you can't cast the same power twice.

If you attach a ML3 psyker to a unit of guardians, how many psychic powers does the unit know?

Do combine those two rules:
ML defines how many, whereas this other rule prevents casting the same power again, should it be possible based on the first rule.

Lungpickle wrote:
“The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level. Iirc I'm quoting from memory.

And ML also determines how many powers a psyker can have. So if ML1 determines that a psyker can have two powers (roll plus primaris), then doesn't it follow that using the same process the psyker can cast two powers? Needs an FAQ.

Naw wrote:

chanceafs wrote:

Naw wrote:

Xyptc wrote:
It cannot be conclusively stated one way or another.

Time to lawyer in.

"The number of psychic powers a Psycher can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level". BWB (Big White Book?), page 22, paragraph 4.

This can be interpreted in two obvious ways:

1) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is equal to his Mastery Level. Note that the wording of the rule uses the word "depends", rather than "is equal to". They are not the same thing, and the rulebook does not state with clarity that a Mastery Level 1 Psyker can only cast one Psychic Power per turn.

It also does not state that lvl 1 psyker can cast more than 1 psychic power per turn. So there we are. Based on the rule you quoted, which would be more probable?

2) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is determined in some way by his Mastery Level, but that determination is not listed in that paragraph. The implied extension is that the Psyker only knows a certain number of powers (based on his Mastery Level), and that this is how the number of Psychic Powers he can cast "depends on his Mastery Level".

You make a sudden leap from "how many powers can be cast" to "can cast as many powers as he knows" without any support by the rules. Yes, the Psyker can know more powers than what his ML is, but it is not supported anywhere in written form that it would be the number of powers he could also cast.

How about this support in the rules: "If, After attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit" (BRB pg. 24 last paragraph under the first column)

Nowhere in that paragraph, or any other does it say you have to stop after you've cast some number of powers, it only says to stop if you run out of charges, and that you can't cast the same power twice.

If you attach a ML3 psyker to a unit of guardians, how many psychic powers does the unit know?

Do combine those two rules:
ML defines how many, whereas this other rule prevents casting the same power again, should it be possible based on the first rule.

So we should ignore the rule stated in the part of the chapter on Manifesting powers, in favor of a general rule from an earlier section that is not specific enough to tell us what to do...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if you want to get technical... Mastery Level wasn't even a flat limit on the number of powers you could cast in a turn in 6th ed. For example, Eldrad Uthran (ML 4), was able to cast all 4 powers he knew, regain warp charges via the Spiritlink ability on the Staff of Ulthamar, and then use one of those charges to activate that weapons force abilities in the same round, which was effectively casting a 5th power.

Are you sure the rules are in contradiction?

Also you did not answer my question.

Naw wrote:
Are you sure the rules are in contradiction?

Also you did not answer my question.

I never claimed the rules were in contradiction, and I have in fact shown how they are logically related. ML determines how many warp charges you have, and how many powers you know... and how many warp charges you have + how many powers you know in turn determines how many powers you can cast.... therefore, how much you can cast is determined by your mastery level. (as the first rule states). What you have yet to do is show a single rule quote that disproves this chain of connection, or that proves "dependent on" = 1:1 ratio.

I didn't answer your question, because I don't see how it's relevant to the question at hand.

"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level"

This is a vague rule that could have multiple meanings (thus this thread). So far we haven't shown permission for a psyker to cast more powers than his mastery level...

"If, After attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit... but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic Phase."

Now we have permission to cast multiple powers from the same unit, without referring to the mastery level. The first rule doesn't directly deny this rule.

Perhaps the first rule is referring to the fact that your available warp charges are limited by the mastery level, therefore it is true that the number of spells a psyker can cast is limited by his mastery level. A psyker with PML 1 may have 3 powers but if you only have 2 warp charges then he's only going to get 1 maybe 2 spells off. This demonstrates that the number of powers he can cast is indeed limited by his mastery level. So the vague sentence has been shown to have multiple meanings and has no definite effect on the rules.

All they had to do was to put an example paragraph...

Dan is trying to cast a Protect power with one of his Eldar Warlocks. He picks up two dice (to have more chances to successfully cast it, even needing only 1 die) and rolls. He rolls a 6 and a 2, obtaining a success! Robin has no Warp Charge dice remaining, so cannot attempt to Deny the Witch against Dan's casting.
After resolving the psychic power, Dan would like to cast Conceal; his Warlock has access to this psychic power because of the Psychic Focus rule - so the Warlock knows 2 psychic powers even having only 1 Mastery Level (he could roll only once in a table the Warlock have access). Alas, as the Warlock has only 1 Mastery Level, it is entitled to cast only once per Psychic Phase. The Psychic Focus rule (and any other rule that adds Psychic Powers, as Scrolls of Magnus artefact in Codex: Chaos Space Marines) adds a broader knowledge of the Warp and how to manipulate it, but the effort to cast over your natural ability is too much in the field of battle.
A model can't cast, in any Psychic sub-phase, a number of psychic powers higher than his Mastery Level.

 Vector Strike wrote:
All they had to do was to put an example paragraph...

Unfortunately, they did not and so we just don't know what they meant.

chanceafs wrote:

Naw wrote:
Are you sure the rules are in contradiction?

Also you did not answer my question.

I never claimed the rules were in contradiction, and I have in fact shown how they are logically related. ML determines how many warp charges you have, and how many powers you know... and how many warp charges you have + how many powers you know in turn determines how many powers you can cast.... therefore, how much you can cast is determined by your mastery level. (as the first rule states). What you have yet to do is show a single rule quote that disproves this chain of connection, or that proves "dependent on" = 1:1 ratio.

I didn't answer your question, because I don't see how it's relevant to the question at hand.

I can argue that since the IC is part of the unit by all rules purposes and the unit does not have brotherhood of psykers, the unit knows no powers and therefore cannot cast anything. Ie. the attached IC lacks the permission to cast more powers. Certainly that is not what they mean by that rule?

 Vector Strike wrote:
All they had to do was to put an example paragraph...

Dan is trying to cast a Protect power with one of his Eldar Warlocks. He picks up two dice (to have more chances to successfully cast it, even needing only 1 die) and rolls. He rolls a 6 and a 2, obtaining a success! Robin has no Warp Charge dice remaining, so cannot attempt to Deny the Witch against Dan's casting.
After resolving the psychic power, Dan would like to cast Conceal; his Warlock has access to this psychic power because of the Psychic Focus rule - so the Warlock knows 2 psychic powers even having only 1 Mastery Level (he could roll only once in a table the Warlock have access). Since the warp presence on this planet is strong (you rolled a 6 for your d6 when determining how many dice you have for the phase), the Warlock is going to attempt to cast another power, despite only being able to generate 1 warp charge on other planets where the thread between reality and the immaterial is stronger.

Forging that narrative!

chanceafs wrote:
And the problem with your logic is that the only justification for it is "that's how it worked in 6th ed" When, psychic powers are the thing that has changed the most since 6th ed, that is a very weak stance to take. The quote you are holding on to isn't specific enough to justify either interpretation, and therefor you have to go further into the chapter to find the meaning... which is exactly what I have done.

Alright, let's play this game. By your interpretation of the rules, the Scrolls of Magnus are now the most powerful Chaos upgrade in the game, capable of granting it's wielder the potential to cast most of the psyker powers in the game EVERY TURN. This was an item that in the edition it was created simply added more powers to your knowledge base to choose from, but screw rules as intended! We can now spam all those powers at will.

I believe (someone check this) that there is no reference to mastery level under the "Manifesting a Power" section. It simply states pick a psyker and a power until you have no dice left in the pool.

I have Mastery level 1 with a Force weapon.

I can cast 3 powers: Rolled for in my discipline, Discipline Primaris, and Force.

 Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
People like you guys that cant figure this simple thing out, where it actually TELLS YOU HOW MANY POWERS YOU CAN CAST (EQUAL TO YOUR MASTERY LEVEL) are the problem with this game, and part of the reason GW is the way they are.

Get out of your own asses, it is so obvious and you are just making yourselves look dumb trying to convince everyone that you can keep casting powers just cause you have warp charge.

Im done with this conversation, and I will be laughing at anyone that tries to play it that way, which likely, will be nobody but the 5-6 people in this thread arguing for it that way.

Wow, not really an open mind here.

I really hope they FAQ this soon, because I would really like to add Ahriman and the Scroll of Magnus to my army if it works as I think it does

 loreweaver wrote:
I believe (someone check this) that there is no reference to mastery level under the "Manifesting a Power" section. It simply states pick a psyker and a power until you have no dice left in the pool.

There wouldn't need to be. Manifesting a power is a single action. By the same logic, the very same Manifesting block doesn't state you move on to the next power, it ends at Resolving the power. What's being discussed is the number of powers you can manifest, or the number of times you can "repeat steps 1 through 5".

Kyutaru wrote:

chanceafs wrote:
And the problem with your logic is that the only justification for it is "that's how it worked in 6th ed" When, psychic powers are the thing that has changed the most since 6th ed, that is a very weak stance to take. The quote you are holding on to isn't specific enough to justify either interpretation, and therefor you have to go further into the chapter to find the meaning... which is exactly what I have done.

Alright, let's play this game. By your interpretation of the rules, the Scrolls of Magnus are now the most powerful Chaos upgrade in the game, capable of granting it's wielder the potential to cast most of the psyker powers in the game EVERY TURN. This was an item that in the edition it was created simply added more powers to your knowledge base to choose from, but screw rules as intended! We can now spam all those powers at will.

Adding more powers to your knowledge base won't let you spam powers, because you run out of warp charges just as quickly as before, and you can do it a maximum of 7 times in the game. Indeed all it does is expand your knowledge base of spells.

People like you guys that cant figure this simple thing out, where it actually TELLS YOU HOW MANY POWERS YOU CAN CAST (EQUAL TO YOUR MASTERY LEVEL) are the problem with this game, and part of the reason GW is the way they are.

The words 'equal to' do not appear.

Get out of your own asses, it is so obvious and you are just making yourselves look dumb trying to convince everyone that you can keep casting powers just cause you have warp charge.

That is what the rules for the psychic phase say to do. Keep selecting psykers and casting powers until you have 0 warp charges left. It doesn't have a step to say 'and make sure the psyker hasn't reached his casting limit'.

Kyutaru wrote:
, but screw rules as intended! We can now spam all those powers at will.

Acting like you know how rules were intended, rather than written, is a certain way to make it to everyone's ignore list on this forum.

The only people who know how many powers a psyker can cast are those that wrote the rules. Until we hear from them, there is no answer. The book does not cover it no matter how much you jump up and down and scream about "rules as intended".

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:
, but screw rules as intended! We can now spam all those powers at will.

Acting like you know how rules were intended, rather than written, is a certain way to make it to everyone's ignore list on this forum.

The only people who know how many powers a psyker can cast are those that wrote the rules. Until we hear from them, there is no answer. The book does not cover it no matter how much you jump up and down and scream about "rules as intended".

The same logic applies to those claiming you can cast an infinite number of these powers so long as you know them all. It makes characters like Be'lakor and Fateweaver even better since they begin with more powers than anyone. Using a few heralds to generate enough charge for them to become your main spellslinger is cake. The rules do indicate that spell mastery is the dependency for how many powers you can cast per turn, yet these characters and characters with the Scroll of Magnus break that rule. This is the same warped logic that caused people to disbelieve pink horrors were capable of casting summons when it was clear as day that either everyone could or no one could, and which do you think was intended? Those logicians were smited by the FAQ and these will be the same, it's just semantics at this point.

As for rules as intended, there is no evidence to support a change in the fundamental formula for calculating powers per turn, yet plenty of evidence supporting that it hasn't changed from past editions, those past editions being the strongest with that "vague" allusion being another... so yes, I'll take the high road on this one. If it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, and quacks like a duck, why the hell would you wait for the DNA test to see if it's a swan? If the choices are between Same As Every Other Edition and Something Radically New, which sounds like the safer bet to you? If you have any other answer than the one that's obvious, be my guest and speculate all you'd like. It'll be a lot quicker though if you just email the FAQers because this topic is going in circles and arriving at no consensus.

If you have 3 empty glasses and you tell the waitress you need beer based on your glasses, would your waitress bring you 4 beer? Or would she use common sense and bring you 3 beer?

If she did bring you 3 beer, would you then complain and say that you really wanted 4 beer?

You guys tryin to make gak up because you have one good psyker and you want to funnel warp charges from cheap units into him, its obvious what you're trying to do, and its obvious that it wont work. Get over it, get on with your warhammer lives and order a damn beer!

 Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
If you have 3 empty glasses and you tell the waitress you need beer based on your glasses, would your waitress bring you 4 beer? Or would she use common sense and bring you 3 beer?

If she did bring you 3 beer, would you then complain and say that you really wanted 4 beer?

You guys tryin to make gak up because you have one good psyker and you want to funnel warp charges from cheap units into him, its obvious what you're trying to do, and its obvious that it wont work. Get over it, get on with your warhammer lives and order a damn beer!

The waitress would look at you like you are special needs and ask you to clarify.

Also the waitress would probably bring you 1 beer of the same brand that you have been drinking and clear your table(or if you have been ordering 3 beers all night she would simply bring you your standard order).

What I am trying to say is that your real world example is flawed.

 Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
If you have 3 empty glasses and you tell the waitress you need beer based on your glasses, would your waitress bring you 4 beer? Or would she use common sense and bring you 3 beer?

If she did bring you 3 beer, would you then complain and say that you really wanted 4 beer?

You guys tryin to make gak up because you have one good psyker and you want to funnel warp charges from cheap units into him, its obvious what you're trying to do, and its obvious that it wont work. Get over it, get on with your warhammer lives and order a damn beer!

I like analogies! How about this one...

You have 6 different model rockets you can launch... but only 3 model rocket engines. Your friends all have model rockets too but they each only have 1 rocket and 1 engine. 3 of your friends give you their engines so that you can launch all 6 of your rockets!!

Replace rockets with generated powers and engines with mastery levels giving you dice.

Yes, but where does it say you are allowed to launch 6 rockets at the park that you all met at! the park has a 3 rocket limit..

Id like to point out that by your logic, fateweaver should be able to cast 6 spells per turn (4 change + 2 book powers) and if you wanted to go to the extreme of what you are trying to say, he should be able to cast 12 powers. I know I said I was done with this convo a while ago, but it is just REALLY bothering me because I actually have no idea how people could be this stupid. It is flabbergasting, but then again... 'Murica.....

There was a time I remember when people would intentionally take the less abusive interpretation of a rule when it wasnt 100% clear.

That time is long gone. Now the popular thing to do is to Easter egg hunt the rules and argue the absolute most abusive interpretations as though they have equal merit to actual sensible solutions.

I play CSM and demons, and I will be limiting my psykers to 1 power per mastery level each of my turns. (Providing I have the warp charges to do so)

 Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
Yes, but where does it say you are allowed to launch 6 rockets at the park that you all met at! the park has a 3 rocket limit..

"If, After attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit... but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic Phase."

As long as I still have powers and warp charge points, i can keep casting until I run out of one or the other. The only restriction is that I can't cast the same power twice from the same source. (or if you like the analogy... the park allows me to launch until I run out of engines, but I can't launch the same rocket twice and I can't give my friends my other rockets)

Zimko wrote:
(or if you like the analogy... the park allows me to launch until I run out of engines, but I can't launch the same rocket twice and I can't give my friends my other rockets)

And the smelly awkward kid in the bushes gets to shoot at your rockets with his BB gun.

 BarBoBot wrote:
There was a time I remember when people would intentionally take the less abusive interpretation of a rule when it wasnt 100% clear.

That time is long gone. Now the popular thing to do is to Easter egg hunt the rules and argue the absolute most abusive interpretations as though they have equal merit to actual sensible solutions.

I play CSM and demons, and I will be limiting my psykers to 1 power per mastery level each of my turns. (Providing I have the warp charges to do so)

I honestly don't think it is that abusive. In fact in the case of Grey Knights it actually nerfs them from 6th. I can't use Hammerhand on my turn and a force weapon on my opponent's turn like I used to. Now I can only cast 1 or the other for an entire game turn. You're still limited by your warp charge count. It only gets abused if you decide to take a bunch of weak psykers for the sole purpose of cranking up your warp charge count and channeling the powers thru 1 guy who has 7 powers.

Do forget the limit which says nr of powers one can cast depends on the mastery level.

Btw, this one rule saying a psyker in a unit is a unit by itself is interesting. There are a couple of threads that should be pointed towards that rule.

Until FAQed otherwise, HIWPI is ML=number of spells cast. While both sides have valid points, ML=number of spells cast is the only one that provides a level of consistency from psyker to psyker.

For example, two librarians in opposing armies, both ML2, both same points cost. One librarian split up his powers, so he has 2 powers (and can thus only cast 2 powers max). The other went all telepathy and has 3 powers. Now, if using the number of powers taken as the basis for # of powers cast per turn, the telepathy librarian is 50% more potent for free. Or worse, a ML1 psyker will always have 2 powers, making it effectively a ML2 unfocused psyker for free (minus one warp charge of course). It gets even worse with Chaos since they get the god primaris automatically for free, and then can generate all of their powers from another discipline and get the focus primaris too (if my understanding of that is accurate). Just doesn't exactly seem right in my mind.

Naw wrote:
Do forget the limit which says nr of powers one can cast depends on the mastery level.

Btw, this one rule saying a psyker in a unit is a unit by itself is interesting. There are a couple of threads that should be pointed towards that rule.

Yeah, it implies that a unit with 10 individual psykers can only cast a witchfire ONCE as a whole. Even if they all have that witchfire. At least that is how I read it.

 BarBoBot wrote:
There was a time I remember when people would intentionally take the less abusive interpretation of a rule when it wasnt 100% clear.

That time is long gone. Now the popular thing to do is to Easter egg hunt the rules and argue the absolute most abusive interpretations as though they have equal merit to actual sensible solutions.

I play CSM and demons, and I will be limiting my psykers to 1 power per mastery level each of my turns. (Providing I have the warp charges to do so)

I think very few people have posted their HIWPI interpretation. You should not assume that someone's RAW interpretation matches how they will play on the tabletop.

As I posted before, I believe it to be ambiguous RAW, with a good case for casting more powers than you have PMLs. But I will be limiting my Psykers to casting only as many powers as they have PMLs, because I believe that was what's intended; I know GW has a poor track record in regards to proper rules-wording, and I assume this has occurred again here.

And OF COURSE the popular thing to do is Easter Egging! It's fun to pry apart the rules!
Also, TOs should always engage in this activity. Why? So that they have a carefully-thought-out house-rule to answer the TFG at a tournament who tries to pull a fast one. This sort of thread is very helpful to TOs.

Zimko wrote:

 Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
Yes, but where does it say you are allowed to launch 6 rockets at the park that you all met at! the park has a 3 rocket limit..

"If, After attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit... but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic Phase."

As long as I still have powers and warp charge points, i can keep casting until I run out of one or the other. The only restriction is that I can't cast the same power twice from the same source. (or if you like the analogy... the park allows me to launch until I run out of engines, but I can't launch the same rocket twice and I can't give my friends my other rockets)

It says that AFTER telling you you can cast a number of spells based on your ML

BarBoBot wrote:
There was a time I remember when people would intentionally take the less abusive interpretation of a rule when it wasnt 100% clear.

That time is long gone. Now the popular thing to do is to Easter egg hunt the rules and argue the absolute most abusive interpretations as though they have equal merit to actual sensible solutions.

I play CSM and demons, and I will be limiting my psykers to 1 power per mastery level each of my turns. (Providing I have the warp charges to do so)

Yeah, I totally agree.. Player base has changed from reasonable people to 5 year old children who want their candy right fething now!!!

This argument is far more convoluted that it should be...thank god they fixed the "cant shoot without eyes" debacle! you guys would probably be all over that one as well!

While it is not an entirely grammatically clear piece, It is pretty easy to see what the intent of this rule was. Pretty much everyone I know would laugh you out of the FLGS for attempting something like this, just as they would have in 6th edition if you were to try and claim my Wraithguard couldn't shoot.

If the number of powers you can cast is in any way related to whether or not you gain Psychic Focus, or are equiped with a Force weapon, then why did the rules not mention this? Simple answer: The number of powers a Psyker can cast is NOT dependent on Psychic Focus or Force weapons. In fact, the rules never say, or even indicate that viewpoint at all.

 Admiral General Aladeen wrote:

Yeah, I totally agree.. Player base has changed from reasonable people to 5 year old children who want their candy right fething now!!!

Read the last sentence of my previous post.
Also, it's just a game. If you can't discuss rules without resorting to cursing and name-calling, then get out of YMDC.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
This argument is far more convoluted that it should be...thank god they fixed the "cant shoot without eyes" debacle! you guys would probably be all over that one as well!

While it is not an entirely grammatically clear piece, It is pretty easy to see what the intent of this rule was. Pretty much everyone I know would laugh you out of the FLGS for attempting something like this, just as they would have in 6th edition if you were to try and claim my Wraithguard couldn't shoot.

If the number of powers you can cast is in any way related to whether or not you gain Psychic Focus, or are equiped with a Force weapon, then why did the rules not mention this? Simple answer: The number of powers a Psyker can cast is NOT dependent on Psychic Focus or Force weapons. In fact, the rules never say, or even indicate that viewpoint at all.

The number of powers you can cast is not related to Psychic Focus or Force weapons... it is directly related to your mastery level because that determines how many warp charges you get.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would like to point out, that the mastery level of a psyker in 6e DID NOT determine how many powers that psyker could cast. It only determined how many warp charges it recieved which indirectly determined how many powers he could cast.

Eldrad had the ability to regenerate warp charges and was able to cast MORE than 4 powers a turn because of this, despite having a mastery level of 4. The mastery level has always represented the amount of charges available.

Now in 7e psykers can share their warp charges with each other, and the ambiguous rule you've quoted is only referring to the fact that mastery level still limits the number of warp charges available to your psykers, and therefore indirectly limits the number of powers a psyker can cast. But is not, and never was, 1:1.

 Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
If you have 3 empty glasses and you tell the waitress you need beer based on your glasses, would your waitress bring you 4 beer? Or would she use common sense and bring you 3 beer?

A good waitress would ask what you meant - because your statement wasn't clear and making any assumptions based on an unclear statement is a bad idea.

There's another statement later on that gives more information - does it mention Mastery Level at all? Oh - it doesn't? Hmm.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
While it is not an entirely grammatically clear piece, It is pretty easy to see what the intent of this rule was.

It really isn't. It is completely impossible to see what the intent was. For all we know, there was supposed to be a table in the Psychic Powers section akin to the Close Combat WS-comparison table or the hit table for shooting, where you reference the model's Mastery Level against some other figure to determine the number of powers they can cast. (It wouldn't be the first time they have left something critical out of the rulebook... they 'accidentally' left out a large chunk of the vehicle rules once...)

All we have is a statement that the Mastery Level determines how many powers you can cast. And that, by itself, is a meaningless statement. The number of legs I have determines how fast I can run. But if that's all the information I give you, you have absolutely no way of actually determining how fast I can run, and no way of knowing how I intended you to determine it.



Those arguing that you should be able to cast as many powers as you know aren't making a statement of intent. They're presenting an alternate way of determining the number of powers that may be cast from the information provided. It's not being presented as the 'right' way... just as another way that is just as valid, with the information we have, as assuming that it's just a number equal to your Mastery Level, or your Mastery Level cross-referenced on a table that was left out of the book against the number of the current turn, or checking your Mastery Level against the number of bottles of beer stacked on the side of the table, or subtracting your Mastery Level from 9, or comparing your Mastery Level against the highest Mastery Level in your opponent's army, or adding the Mastery Levels of all of your psykers and dividing by 7 and a half and then adding your waist measurement in inches and dividing by your shoe-size.

Any of those methods could be what was intended. Again, I'm inclined to think it was most likely supposed to be a straight 1:1 comparison... but there is no way to say unequivocally that this was the intention, or that it is the way that it will be played (which isn't always what was originally intended when the book was written, so the writer's intention isn't always relevant anyway).

 insaniak wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
While it is not an entirely grammatically clear piece, It is pretty easy to see what the intent of this rule was.

It really isn't. It is completely impossible to see what the intent was. For all we know, there was supposed to be a table in the Psychic Powers section akin to the Close Combat WS-comparison table or the hit table for shooting, where you reference the model's Mastery Level against some other figure to determine the number of powers they can cast. (It wouldn't be the first time they have left something critical out of the rulebook... they 'accidentally' left out a large chunk of the vehicle rules once...)

All we have is a statement that the Mastery Level determines how many powers you can cast. And that, by itself, is a meaningless statement. The number of legs I have determines how fast I can run. But if that's all the information I give you, you have absolutely no way of actually determining how fast I can run, and no way of knowing how I intended you to determine it.



Those arguing that you should be able to cast as many powers as you know aren't making a statement of intent. They're presenting an alternate way of determining the number of powers that may be cast from the information provided. It's not being presented as the 'right' way... just as another way that is just as valid, with the information we have, as assuming that it's just a number equal to your Mastery Level, or your Mastery Level cross-referenced on a table that was left out of the book against the number of the current turn, or checking your Mastery Level against the number of bottles of beer stacked on the side of the table, or subtracting your Mastery Level from 9, or comparing your Mastery Level against the highest Mastery Level in your opponent's army, or adding the Mastery Levels of all of your psykers and dividing by 7 and a half and then adding your waist measurement in inches and dividing by your shoe-size.

Any of those methods could be what was intended. Again, I'm inclined to think it was most likely supposed to be a straight 1:1 comparison... but there is no way to say unequivocally that this was the intention, or that it is the way that it will be played (which isn't always what was originally intended when the book was written, so the writer's intention isn't always relevant anyway).

I understand your point here, but as you have already pointed out earlier, we have no formula for converting Mastery Levels into a number of powers that can be cast by one unit. Given this, any further RAW discussions are pretty pointless, unless something new is brought to light. This is why i have moved on to the subject of intent. My argument here is that the rule in question would most likely either have referenced Psychic Focus and Force Weapons, or not been written at all if it were meant to play a different way. For example, using the "cast as many as you have" theory, If i have a ML2 Psyker who rolls once one Divination and once on Telepathy, he can cast 2 powers a turn. Psyker #2 is also ML2, but has a force weapon and rolls both of his powers on Divination. He can manifest 4 powers. So if Psyker #1 and #2 are both ML2, but have different limits on the number of powers they can cast, how exactly does the rule in question make any sense if Masterly Level really isn't determining anything? Furthermore, if you are of the belief that there is no limit on the amount of powers that can be cast by one unit, why was the rule even written in the first place?

This is the thought process I am using to make an interpretation of RAW to give me, what I think is, a pretty solid RAI. "Mastery Level = Max powers a unit can cast per turn," seems like the most likely and simplest option here, much as the "Assume the eyes of my Wraithguard are somewhere on the head solution," was.

I've been doing exactly what YMDC was designed for, using ALL the RAW printed to come up with a solution when the one statement in particular is not clear enough to draw a conclusion from.

As far as i can tell the other side of the argument is saying, yeah that statement is unclear, but I think it was supposed to mean this. Therefore we need a FAQ to make it more clear.

Personally the interpretation of you can cast as long as you have Warp charges an known powers remaining makes perfect sense. In the old edition, you got warp charges equal to your mastery level, there for an ML 1 cast 1 power per turn, an ML 4 cast 4 powers per turn... etc etc. It was always 1 to 1. However in this edition, a mastery level 4 will rarely get to cast 4 powers per turn, because he could have as few as 5 Warp charges to work with, and will typically want to use a couple warp charges per power. At the same time a single ML 1 psyker can become much more useful, because if he is your only psyker he could still potentially have up to 7 Warp charges. And will easily know up to 3 different powers.

Why shouldn't he be able to use those warp charges as he sees fit dividing them amongst what he knows. Under this system it gives players a great reward for choosing to use even a single psyker, while at the same time nerf's the potential of having several powerful psykers. Eldrad and a Farseer may know 10 powers between them, but only have a pool of 8 to 13 charges to work with, so will have to pick and choose how they want to spend that pool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For me it seems very silly for the rules to give a ML 1 psyker with a force weapon 3 different powers (1 generate, psychic focus for primaris, and activate force weapon), up to 7 warp charges in a turn (if he is your only psyker and you roll a 6) and then say but he can only cast one of those things. To me that's the argument that makes no sense. Thus I go to the actual rule actually written in the book: "If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit..." with the only caveat to that statement being "no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per psychic phase."

Why make up a rule that doesn't exist, when the rules that are printed give you all the information you need.

Wait. Let's assume for moment that dependent on Mastery Level does mean 1:1 ratio.

How do you determine a unit's Mastery Level? If the unit is a Psyker all by his lonesome (such as a Wraithseer), or a Brotherhood of Psyker unit with no attached characters, no problem. But, what if you have 10 Warlocks and 2 Farseers in a unit? How do you determine the Mastery level then?

 Happyjew wrote:
Wait. Let's assume for moment that dependent on Mastery Level does mean 1:1 ratio.

How do you determine a unit's Mastery Level? If the unit is a Psyker all by his lonesome (such as a Wraithseer), or a Brotherhood of Psyker unit with no attached characters, no problem. But, what if you have 10 Warlocks and 2 Farseers in a unit? How do you determine the Mastery level then?

Each Warlock is a Psychic unit, and each Farseer is also a Psychic unit. They therefore generate 16WC, and are limited in their casting by their individual PMLs.

If you're trying to say that that blob is a single Psychic unit, as opposed to 12 Psychic units, then there's no way to assign Perils and the whole shebang falls apart.
(Why is "shebang" even a word?)
Also, if you're trying to say that, the Warlocks could cast the attached Farseer's Fortune.

Yes, this means that each Warlock can try and cast Reveal, and both Farseers can attempt Fortune.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Wait. Let's assume for moment that dependent on Mastery Level does mean 1:1 ratio.

How do you determine a unit's Mastery Level? If the unit is a Psyker all by his lonesome (such as a Wraithseer), or a Brotherhood of Psyker unit with no attached characters, no problem. But, what if you have 10 Warlocks and 2 Farseers in a unit? How do you determine the Mastery level then?

Each Warlock is a Psychic unit, and each Farseer is also a Psychic unit. They therefore generate 16WC, and are limited in their casting by their individual PMLs.

If you're trying to say that that blob is a single Psychic unit, as opposed to 12 Psychic units, then there's no way to assign Perils and the whole shebang falls apart.
(Why is "shebang" even a word?)

Yes, this means that each Warlock can try and cast Reveal, and both Farseers can attempt Fortune.

JA! this is neat! I will have to rewrite my eldar/dark eldar list thx

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Each Warlock is a Psychic unit, and each Farseer is also a Psychic unit. They therefore generate 16WC, and are limited in their casting by their individual PMLs.

This is incorrect. There is no rules basis for assuming that individual models inside a unit are considered to each be a unit.

The example in the section that deals with generating Warp Charges makes it clear that a unit of psykers is one unit.

 insaniak wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Each Warlock is a Psychic unit, and each Farseer is also a Psychic unit. They therefore generate 16WC, and are limited in their casting by their individual PMLs.

This is incorrect. There is no rules basis for assuming that individual models inside a unit are considered to each be a unit.

The example in the section that deals with generating Warp Charges makes it clear that a unit of psykers is one unit.

That's ludicrous because it breaks other mechanics. Unit is not just a term for an army list squad, it is also a measurement of one.

Manifesting a power requires that you select one of your Psyker units. Yet powers can only be manifested by Psykers with a clear dependency on their mastery level. Psyker units without Brotherhood don't have a universal mastery level, only individual psykers do. You can now state that Psykers that have joined a unit of non-Brotherhood models are incapable of manifesting. But suppose we say the unit becomes a Psyker unit, inheriting the Mastery level of the Psyker. Now another Psyker joins the same unit, only his Mastery level is different. Hohe w many powers can one use at this point? Suppose we say simply having the powers is how you manifest them and that the total sum of powers known by ALL psykers in the unit makes up the unit's "known powers" list. Being that a unit cannot manifest each power more than once, if you have multiple psykers in the group with the same powers, they overlap each other and are wasted potential. But let's say we're fine with that and can now manifest all the UNIQUE powers the unit knows. Now we attempt the test and come up double 6s. Ouch, looks like the Psyker will have to face perils. But wait -- WHICH PSYKER HAS TO SUFFER PERILS?

Do we assign perils to the Psyker that KNOWS the power? What if multiple ones know the power? Do we assign perils to the Psyker closest to the target like some freakish Wound pool? What if the power had no target or the target was the unit itself? Do perils occur to a random Psyker in the group? Which one then? Do we randomly roll dice or play Eenie-Meenie-Miney-Moe? Do perils occur to a random MODEL in the group? Is adding a Psyker to your group suddenly turning the unit into a cheap source of Souls for the sacrificing to dark powers? Do we take the Perils section literally and apply the perils to "the Psyker", causing an unsaved wound to EVERY PSYKER IN THE GROUP? Brotherhoods seem to be safe from this dilemma, so do we count all psykers that team up as a Brotherhood? If so, can you please cite the rules permitting any of this???

Attempting to split hairs on cut and dry statements when the English language is by its nature brimming with multiple meanings to identical words or phrases leads to absurdity. That's what irony is all about, the use of words to state something that means the opposite of what it literally says. If you want to avoid these problems with technicalities and rules abuse, you stick to the simplest interpretation, not the one that requires four postulates and six redefined terms.

When you hear hoofbeats, think "horseys"... not zebras.

 insaniak wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Each Warlock is a Psychic unit, and each Farseer is also a Psychic unit. They therefore generate 16WC, and are limited in their casting by their individual PMLs.

This is incorrect. There is no rules basis for assuming that individual models inside a unit are considered to each be a unit.

The example in the section that deals with generating Warp Charges makes it clear that a unit of psykers is one unit.

I think it's psyker = warlock or whichever model has the psyker rule
unit of psykers = unit of models who have the brotherhood of psykers/socerers rule

 ashikenshin wrote:
I think it's psyker = warlock or whichever model has the psyker rule
unit of psykers = unit of models who have the brotherhood of psykers/socerers rule

If you believe that, then Warlocks and other characters are incapable of manifesting any powers. Only Psychic units can manifest anything.

Kyutaru wrote:

 ashikenshin wrote:
I think it's psyker = warlock or whichever model has the psyker rule
unit of psykers = unit of models who have the brotherhood of psykers/socerers rule

If you believe that, then Warlocks and other characters are incapable of manifesting any powers. Only Psychic units can manifest anything.

I'm going by the quick links in the ipad edition. Unit of psykers refers specifically to models who have the brotherhood of psykers/sorcerers rule. A warlock who joins a Farseer is still a psyker joined by another psyker, in no place does a unit of warlocks becomes unit of psykers even if that sounds somewhat logical. Still two warlocks in a unit generate warp charges each one as an individual psyker and they cast powers as individual psykers too.

You manifest the number of powers before the game starts equal to your mastery level.

Each turn you can cast as many of those powers as your WC allow.

So if you have a psychic focus and roll a high WC number for the turn, you can probably cast each one four of your powers that turn. But another turn if you roll a low d6, you might only be able to cast 1 or 2 powers that turn.

 insaniak wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Each Warlock is a Psychic unit, and each Farseer is also a Psychic unit. They therefore generate 16WC, and are limited in their casting by their individual PMLs.

This is incorrect. There is no rules basis for assuming that individual models inside a unit are considered to each be a unit.

The example in the section that deals with generating Warp Charges makes it clear that a unit of psykers is one unit.

This is incorrect. There is no rules basis for assuming that models in a tabletop unit would gain the rule "Psyker" when a psychic IC is attached to them.

The example in the section that deals with generating WC uses three units: a Primars Psyker, an Astropath, and a unit of Wyrdvane. The Wyrdvane have the BoP USR. There is no indication in the example whether the Primaris (who is an IC) is attached to the Wyrdvane or not. Therefore, we may safely assume that, for Psychic purposes, it does not matter whether he's attached or not--if it had mattered, they would've specified.

Three Tzeentch Heralds all attached to a unit of Pink Horrors. Please explain:
1. Whether the Pink Horrors could, at that point, cast a power known to one of the Tzeralds.
2. How you would resolve a Perils if one of the Psykers in the unit rolled a double 6.
Use some quotations from the BRB in your explanation.

Kyutaru wrote:
Unit is not just a term for an army list squad, it is also a measurement of one.

In 40K, 'Unit' has a specific, defined meaning which is exp[lained right at the start of the book. Individual models within a squad are not different units.

Psyker units without Brotherhood don't have a universal mastery level, only individual psykers do. You can now state that Psykers that have joined a unit of non-Brotherhood models are incapable of manifesting. But suppose we say the unit becomes a Psyker unit, inheriting the Mastery level of the Psyker. Now another Psyker joins the same unit, only his Mastery level is different. Hohe w many powers can one use at this point? Suppose we say simply having the powers is how you manifest them and that the total sum of powers known by ALL psykers in the unit makes up the unit's "known powers" list. Being that a unit cannot manifest each power more than once, if you have multiple psykers in the group with the same powers, they overlap each other and are wasted potential. But let's say we're fine with that and can now manifest all the UNIQUE powers the unit knows. Now we attempt the test and come up double 6s. Ouch, looks like the Psyker will have to face perils. But wait -- WHICH PSYKER HAS TO SUFFER PERILS?

Yup, as it currently stands, units containing multiple non-Brotherhood psykers, or units of non-psykers with a psyker joined to them would appear to fall into a gigantic black hole in the rules.

Attempting to split hairs on cut and dry statements when the English language is by its nature brimming with multiple meanings to identical words or phrases leads to absurdity.

Where was I 'splitting hairs'...?


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 ashikenshin wrote:
Unit of psykers refers specifically to models who have the brotherhood of psykers/sorcerers rule. .

Nope. From the 'PSYKERS AND PSYCHIC POWERS' section:

"For the purposes of all rules, the term 'Psyker' and 'Psyker unit' refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules."


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Elric Greywolf 597151 6878341 51cf979ac4b7f4baf8a97b33a3cd0054. wrote:This is incorrect. There is no rules basis for assuming that models in a tabletop unit would gain the rule "Psyker" when a psychic IC is attached to them.

I didn't say that they would...

Three Tzeentch Heralds all attached to a unit of Pink Horrors. Please explain:
1. Whether the Pink Horrors could, at that point, cast a power known to one of the Tzeralds.
2. How you would resolve a Perils if one of the Psykers in the unit rolled a double 6.
Use some quotations from the BRB in your explanation.

The rules do not appear to currently cover this situation.

I actually think they intended psykers to cast as many powers as they had.
The whole psychic focus was added to reward players for limited themselves to a single discipline.

As for "how it's always been", powers/turn = mastery level was never how it was, powers/turn = warp charges in 6th.
Warp charges have always been the limiting factor in casting (sorry, manifesting, heh).

"How many powers he can manifest is determined by his mastery level."
Yeah, it is, his mastery level is the primary determining factor for how many powers he has and how many warp charges are accrued each turn.

I really don't think this interpretation is broken, 1 guy manifesting every power he knows means no one else manifesting anything most of time. You're not gaining more powers, you still only get so many warp charges.

To be honest, my initial, knee jerk reaction, was" depends on PML means equals PML", but after rereading the rules, I actually think they intended for a psyker to be able to use all his powers. Force weapons have never been considered OP'd, making them a power and limiting a psyker to powers/turn equal to PML would actually be a pretty serious nerf to power weapons , which was already hit pretty by making it a power you have to precast in your own turn, if you think you might be charged next turn.

Honestly, I don't see this having a HUGE impact on a game and most psykers are pretty pricey and otherwise fairly weak, so if I had an opponent that wanted to do this, I'd just shrug and say "sure".

 insaniak wrote:

Three Tzeentch Heralds all attached to a unit of Pink Horrors. Please explain:
1. Whether the Pink Horrors could, at that point, cast a power known to one of the Tzeralds.
2. How you would resolve a Perils if one of the Psykers in the unit rolled a double 6.
Use some quotations from the BRB in your explanation.

The rules do not appear to currently cover this situation.

Fair enough. However, an IC attached to a BoP, or two Psyker ICs attached to each other, is a fairly common occurrence, and I doubt they thought they were leaving out rules to cover such a predictable situatino. I think the definition of "unit" as used in "unit composition" is a valid way of reading "Psychic unit," and using that definition solves the problem.

 Fos Kenos wrote:
I actually think they intended psykers to cast as many powers as they had.
The whole psychic focus was added to reward players for limited themselves to a single discipline.

As for "how it's always been", powers/turn = mastery level was never how it was, powers/turn = warp charges in 6th.
Warp charges have always been the limiting factor in casting (sorry, manifesting, heh).

"How many powers he can manifest is determined by his mastery level."
Yeah, it is, his mastery level is the primary determining factor for how many powers he has and how many warp charges are accrued each turn.

I really don't think this interpretation is broken, 1 guy manifesting every power he knows means no one else manifesting anything most of time. You're not gaining more powers, you still only get so many warp charges.

To be honest, my initial, knee jerk reaction, was" depends on PML means equals PML", but after rereading the rules, I actually think they intended for a psyker to be able to use all his powers. Force weapons have never been considered OP'd, making them a power and limiting a psyker to powers/turn equal to PML would actually be a pretty serious nerf to power weapons , which was already hit pretty by making it a power you have to precast in your own turn, if you think you might be charged next turn.

Honestly, I don't see this having a HUGE impact on a game and most psykers are pretty pricey and otherwise fairly weak, so if I had an opponent that wanted to do this, I'd just shrug and say "sure".

Can make a huge difference when someone takes 8+ Tzeench Heralds, all rolling on Deamonology in a Battle Forged list at 1850 points.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Fair enough. However, an IC attached to a BoP, or two Psyker ICs attached to each other, is a fairly common occurrence, and I doubt they thought they were leaving out rules to cover such a predictable situatino.

This is the company that released a previous rulebook in which they had accidentally left out the entire access and fire point rules for vehicles, and that last edition felt the need to errata Look Out Sir! three and a half minutes after publication. And who just made huge sweeping changes to the Psychic Phase to make Librarians more powerful on the assumption that they must be sub-par because the guys in the studio all field Captains and Chaplains instead...

So, no, there's a very large possibility that they simply didn't consider the situation.

I think the definition of "unit" as used in "unit composition" is a valid way of reading "Psychic unit," and using that definition solves the problem.

No it doesn't, as a joined IC counts as a part of the unit.

Kyutaru wrote:

 ashikenshin wrote:
I think it's psyker = warlock or whichever model has the psyker rule
unit of psykers = unit of models who have the brotherhood of psykers/socerers rule

If you believe that, then Warlocks and other characters are incapable of manifesting any powers. Only Psychic units can manifest anything.

This is the point I tried to argue earlier. The rule clearly speaks of a psychic unit and one psyker attached to non-psykers does not a psychic unit make!


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 Fos Kenos wrote:
I actually think they intended psykers to cast as many powers as they had.
The whole psychic focus was added to reward players for limited themselves to a single discipline.

I am also shifting my view to this, although I feel it is not really supported by the rules. I guess it actually makea sense to keep on casting as long as you don't try to recast. Also a unit of 9 warlocks with 3 different powers could not cast more than those three, but they could fuel other casters.

Im agreeing with insaniak here.

As sad as it is that 10 Warlocks are only 1 ML and generate only 1 WC it seems its a situation which the rules forgot about and thus they get punished. Hard.

At least this stops jetseer councils, but I really do hope they FAQ this and I will be sending them an email.

Part of the reason I participate in these threads is because they have real world implications. It's tough for TOs to condemn something someone is assured they are allowed to do because of "something they read on the internet" and most of our customers read this site. I mean, where do you draw the line?

Anyway, my store has come up with the following for Psyker rules which will hereby become law:

- Psykers that are ICs count as Psyker units even while attached to another unit. Psykers that are part of a non-Psyker unit become Psyker units themselves.
- Multiple Psykers in a single unit generate Warp Charges as though they were in separate units, unless they are a Brotherhood of Psykers.
- Psyker units may manifest any number of powers per turn, but only once per turn per power.
- When a non-Brotherhood Psyker is joined to a Brotherhood unit, powers manifested that ONLY that Psyker knows result in Perils being applied to that Psyker, not the Brotherhood.

Kyutaru wrote:
Part of the reason I participate in these threads is because they have real world implications. It's tough for TOs to condemn something someone is assured they are allowed to do because of "something they read on the internet" and most of our customers read this site. I mean, where do you draw the line?

Anyway, my store has come up with the following for Psyker rules which will hereby become law:

- Psykers that are ICs count as Psyker units even while attached to another unit. Psykers that are part of a non-Psyker unit become Psyker units themselves.
- Multiple Psykers in a single unit generate Warp Charges as though they were in separate units, unless they are a Brotherhood of Psykers.
- Psyker units may manifest any number of powers per turn, but only once per turn per power.
- When a non-Brotherhood Psyker is joined to a Brotherhood unit, powers manifested that ONLY that Psyker knows result in Perils being applied to that Psyker, not the Brotherhood.

So by your set of rules, can a Warlock seerstar cast the same buffs multiple times?

 don_mondo wrote:
So by your set of rules, can a Warlock seerstar cast the same buffs multiple times?

- ICs count as Psyker units
- Psyker units may manifest each power once
- Multiple Psyker units in the same "unit" can cast that power multiple times

So yes.

 insaniak wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:


The point that several others (insaniak and rigeld, I think) are making is that, without further details, we don't know what correlation that dependency is.

This.

To be clear, I fully believe that they intended for it to be a straight 1:1 correlation. But the rule as written simply doesn't give us that information.

Going the WD write up on the new phase, they were pretty clear that they meant you could cast as many powers as you have warp charges, right up to miss quoting the rule saying you could spam one power, using a witchfire as an example.

Kyutaru wrote:
Part of the reason I participate in these threads is because they have real world implications. It's tough for TOs to condemn something someone is assured they are allowed to do because of "something they read on the internet" and most of our customers read this site. I mean, where do you draw the line?

Anyway, my store has come up with the following for Psyker rules which will hereby become law:

- Psykers that are ICs count as Psyker units even while attached to another unit. Psykers that are part of a non-Psyker unit become Psyker units themselves.
- Multiple Psykers in a single unit generate Warp Charges as though they were in separate units, unless they are a Brotherhood of Psykers.
- Psyker units may manifest any number of powers per turn, but only once per turn per power.
- When a non-Brotherhood Psyker is joined to a Brotherhood unit, powers manifested that ONLY that Psyker knows result in Perils being applied to that Psyker, not the Brotherhood.

I think your rules are a bit confusing. As an editor, please allow me to make a few suggestions in the wording. These are longer than yours, but I think clearer. They also include examples, which are helpful in explaining intent if anything is unclear. I have also included a clause that slightly restricts Blessings/Maledictions.

ICs with the Psyker rule that are joined to a unit generate WC, manifest powers, and suffer Perils of the Warp exactly as they would if they were alone. Note that this includes when the IC is joined to a unit that contains other IC Psykers, as well as when joined to a unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers rule. Remember that a Psyker IC or a Brotherhood, regardless of whether it is attached to another unit, may never attempt to manifest the same power twice in a phase (unless it has specific permission to do so).

For example, when a Primaris Psyker (PML1) is attached to a Wyrdvane unit (BoP), 2WC will be generated. When the Wyrdvane Psykers attempt to manifest a Psychic power, if they roll double 6s and thus Perils, a random member of the unit, not including the Primaris Psyker, has the Perils resolved against it. Similarly, if the Primaris Psyker attempts to manifest a power and rolls double 6s, he must suffer the effects of the Perils—it cannot be passed to another model (through LOS!, random allocation, or any other means).

For example, a Herald of Tzeentch (PML2) is attached to a unit of Pink Horrors (BoS). Both the Herald and the Horrors generated Flickering Fire (Witchfire) at the start of the game. The Herald is in range and LoS of a SM Tactical Squad, and casts Flickering Fire at them. The Herald's manifestation succeeds, and four Marines die (after Hits, Wounds, and Saves). The Horrors choose the same target for Flickering Fires, pass their Psychic test, and kill two more Marines.

Exception: a Blessing that targets the Psyker (and/or his unit) will affect the unit normally in the appropriate phase.

For example, a SM Librarian (PML1) generates Perfect Timing at the beginning of the game. In the Psychic Phase, if he successfully manifests the power, both his weapons and the weapons of the unit to which he is attached now have the Ignores Cover rule.

Exception: If the manifestation of a Blessing or Malediction fails, the unit that was targeted by the power may not be targeted again this Phase by a Blessing or Malediction of the same name.

For example, two Farseers (each PML3) are attached to a unit of Guardian Defenders; each Farseer generated Prescience (Blessing) at the start of the game. The first Farseer manifests Prescience on the Guardian unit and fails. Since it is a Blessing that failed, the second Farseer may not attempt to cast Prescience on the Guardian unit, although he may target the nearby Warp Spiders.

“The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level.

So your saying despite this in bold print, it irrelevant because if you have charges you can cast, despite it being pretty clear that, ML EQUALS the number of spells any given psyker can use depends on his/her mastery LVL.

Ambiguous how, fluff how. I'm baffled at the sheer willingness to ignore what is written in bold because somewhere else it says if you have warp charges you can still cast. That's true, but your ignoring the fact that statement is for psykers with higher mastery levels and they can indeed cast more if they haven't cast more than their mastery level. Never before in any version both fantasy or 40k has any psyker been allowed to cast more than his level. Still true for this edition. Not ambiguous nor wrong.

It's ambiguous because while they tell us it is dependent on his ML, they don't tell us how to calculate it. There is absolutely nothing that says it is a one-to-one (ie equals, you keep making up that part cause it ain't in the ryulebook) correlation. And then later rules imply, hell, they flat out state, that a psyker can cast as many powers as it has, with absolutely zero reference to any ML limitations. So yeah, it's ambiguous as hell. One could even say it's contradictory. But this is GW, so what else is new?

Lungpickle - a being dependent on b does not tell us anything. We're not ignoring anything, just refusing to make up a rule that does not exist.

Y=2x. Y is dependent on x, but not 1:1. Your argument I'd disproven, again. Please don't repeat it

Lungpickle wrote:
“The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level.

So your saying despite this in bold print, it irrelevant because if you have charges you can cast, despite it being pretty clear that, ML EQUALS the number of spells any given psyker can use depends on his/her mastery LVL.

That's how it's ambiguous. You've literally invented the underlined words. Please don't make things up when discussing rules.

 insaniak wrote:

 ashikenshin wrote:
Unit of psykers refers specifically to models who have the brotherhood of psykers/sorcerers rule. .

Nope. From the 'PSYKERS AND PSYCHIC POWERS' section:

"For the purposes of all rules, the term 'Psyker' and 'Psyker unit' refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules."

well, in the ipad version the term Psyker and the Psyker Unit when you select them take you to the Psyker and Brotherhood of psykers/sorcerers respectively. So I inferred that

Psyker = Psyker

Psyker unit = Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers.


I know it's fickle evidence, but I can post screenshots.

 ashikenshin wrote:
well, in the ipad version the term Psyker and the Psyker Unit when you select them take you to the Psyker and Brotherhood of psykers/sorcerers respectively. So I inferred that

Psyker = Psyker

Psyker unit = Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers.


I know it's fickle evidence, but I can post screenshots.

What the iBook links to is not really relevant. The rule I quoted quite specifically states that a unit with the Psyker rule is a psyker unit. Having the Brotherhood rule is not a requirement.


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Lungpickle wrote:
“The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level.

So your saying despite this in bold print, it irrelevant because if you have charges you can cast, despite it being pretty clear that, ML EQUALS the number of spells any given psyker can use depends on his/her mastery LVL. .

What people are saying is that the statement there in bold print doesn't give us enough information to figure out how to determine the number of powers that can be cast.

 don_mondo wrote:
It's ambiguous because while they tell us it is dependent on his ML, they don't tell us how to calculate it. There is absolutely nothing that says it is a one-to-one (ie equals, you keep making up that part cause it ain't in the ryulebook) correlation.

There is also nothing else to state otherwise.

And then later rules imply, hell, they flat out state, that a psyker can cast as many powers as it has

You mean the rule which talks about a unit??

with absolutely zero reference to any ML limitations. So yeah, it's ambiguous as hell. One could even say it's contradictory. But this is GW, so what else is new?

On this we truly agree.

I believe they don't want a unit of x (whether individual psykers, group of psykers etc) to manifest the same succesfully (??) cast power again. And in case of failure, the same psyker to retry. As for the number of powers they can cast, who knows..? Crappy editing.


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rigeld2 wrote:
Please don't make things up when discussing rules.

I was unable to resist replying to you even though we agree on this.

I can accuse you of the same (ref. battle brother units).

Naw wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
It's ambiguous because while they tell us it is dependent on his ML, they don't tell us how to calculate it. There is absolutely nothing that says it is a one-to-one (ie equals, you keep making up that part cause it ain't in the ryulebook) correlation.

There is also nothing else to state otherwise.

So you have made up 1:1, and because it doesnt state otherwise that is the standard we should use?

No. This way works perfectly - the number of powers you can cast IS dependent on your level, because your level supplies warp charges, without whcih you cannot cast. It is just not *solely* (or only) dependent on your level - THAT is the part you have made up.

A ML1 psyker, knowing two powers, CAN cast both, assuming sufficient WC available. That is RAW.

I've read the whole thread and all the arguments.

I see one line that uses the indeterminate language of "is determined by". Its existence implies that the designers intended it to mean something, but in the absence of a FAQ "is determined by" could mean 1:1 ML or 1:1 powers known (which is determined by ML).

I see another line that specifically says you can keep casting until you run out of Warp Charge or known powers as long as you don't cast a single power more than once on the same Psyker. There is no other way to interpret this.

Until FAQed, the second is the only clear permissive ruleset statement.

I have to say I'm firmly in the "Cast as many powers as you know, Warp Charge permitting" camp here.

Determined by does mean it's a 1:1 link between number of powers and ML because, well, it doesn't say so.

If and when it get gets FAQed it could go either way in my opinion.

@nosferatu: You missed the part where I said I agree with that interpretation even though I feel it is not supported by the rules.

How is it not supported by the rules?

I have shown how it is dependent. I have absolutely complied with that rule.

That is what we are asking you for - your feelings arent important here, just rules.

So, please - how is it not supported? Where does your 1:1 requirement come from?

If I'm allowed to cast 1 power per ML, end of story, what happens when I have a ML3 psyker and I'm out of Warp Charge? According to some, I'm absolutely allowed to cast that power but I don't have any dice to roll.

I think you cast till out of WC.

Rigeld2 - That could still work you could cast but you'd have no successes as you have no dice and the power would fail.

rigeld2 wrote:
If I'm allowed to cast 1 power per ML, end of story, what happens when I have a ML3 psyker and I'm out of Warp Charge? According to some, I'm absolutely allowed to cast that power but I don't have any dice to roll.

Cast it using zero dice. You need at least a 4+ to succeed, go for it! ... Oh look, you failed. Power unsuccessful.

Wow all I can say is I'm glad some of you don't work for me.

Me: go help that customer.

employee: well he didn't say go help that guy at the counter. He said go help that customer. So I guess I can help that guy next door.


common sense did get up graded to rare.


Always go with the weaker rule when not sure that way if get Faq. you get a bonus not a nerf.

The problem with not using the ML being 1:1 to powers cast is that ML is NOT the sole factor when determining the number of powers a psyker has. There are other factors involved when determining the number of powers taken, such as discipline focus or Chaos focus. Also, powers can be lost via Perils of the warp. A ML2 psyker could have 2, 3, or possibly even 4 (depending on how the auto-assigned Chaos powers count towards generated powers and discipline focus).

So the statment regarding number of powers cast per turn being dependent on the pysker's ML wouldn't be true if it was referring to the number of powers that could be taken, because that number is not entirely dependent on the ML.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
The problem with not using the ML being 1:1 to powers cast is that ML is NOT the sole factor when determining the number of powers a psyker has. There are other factors involved when determining the number of powers taken, such as discipline focus or Chaos focus. Also, powers can be lost via Perils of the warp. A ML2 psyker could have 2, 3, or possibly even 4 (depending on how the auto-assigned Chaos powers count towards generated powers and discipline focus).

So the statment regarding number of powers cast per turn being dependent on the pysker's ML wouldn't be true if it was referring to the number of powers that could be taken, because that number is not entirely dependent on the ML.

Instead, you can say that the number of powers a psyker can cast is directly related to the number of warp charges in your dice pool. Which is directly related to mastery level.

Zimko wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
The problem with not using the ML being 1:1 to powers cast is that ML is NOT the sole factor when determining the number of powers a psyker has. There are other factors involved when determining the number of powers taken, such as discipline focus or Chaos focus. Also, powers can be lost via Perils of the warp. A ML2 psyker could have 2, 3, or possibly even 4 (depending on how the auto-assigned Chaos powers count towards generated powers and discipline focus).

So the statment regarding number of powers cast per turn being dependent on the pysker's ML wouldn't be true if it was referring to the number of powers that could be taken, because that number is not entirely dependent on the ML.

Instead, you can say that the number of powers a psyker can cast is directly related to the number of warp charges in your dice pool. Which is directly related to mastery level.

That's inherently false, though. The number of warp charges in your pool is based on the mastery level of ALL Psykers in your army, and in some cases like Pink Horrors it's not even based on Mastery Level at all. Be'lakor is another exception who has a different warp charge than his capabilities speak of. Since the rules clearly say the number of powers "A PSYKER" can manifest depends on "HIS" mastery level, it is impossible for the rules to mean that you can continue to use powers so long as you have warp charges. Any army with more than one psyker in it is already capable of breaking this rule.

Again, you are inserting the word"only" in there, when that word is nonexistent .

Yes, it does depend on your ml, but that is not a 1:1 or sole dependence. To say otherwise is impossible

nosferatu1001 wrote:
How is it not supported by the rules?

I have shown how it is dependent. I have absolutely complied with that rule.

That is what we are asking you for - your feelings arent important here, just rules.

So, please - how is it not supported? Where does your 1:1 requirement come from?

I do not make such a claim, don't be obtuse. All I said was that the other interpretation isn't any better.

It seems that you are usually quite hostile in these threads. Take a chill pill.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, you are inserting the word"only" in there, when that word is nonexistent .

Yes, it does depend on your ml, but that is not a 1:1 or sole dependence. To say otherwise is impossible

If 1:1 isn't the intention, why even mention ML in the rule when that only partially influences the number of powers a psyker has? Shouldn't the rule have simply stated that the number of powers cast was dependent on the number of powers the psyker has?

I am leaning toward the 1:1 method simply because that is the only method that is consistent across the board. Basing it on the number of powers gives a significant advantage to Chaos psykers and focused psykers beyond what I think is the intended bonus of just having the utility of an extra power.

Steel Angel wrote:
Wow all I can say is I'm glad some of you don't work for me.

Me: go help that customer.

employee: well he didn't say go help that guy at the counter. He said go help that customer. So I guess I can help that guy next door.


common sense did get up graded to rare.


Always go with the weaker rule when not sure that way if get Faq. you get a bonus not a nerf.

It's almost like your example has context to help it along, which differs from the rule being discussed (ie there's no context).
Insulting people isn't very nice. Please refrain from doing so.

Naw - yet have managed to provide no rules or argument as to why. Just an opinion. Please follow the tenets and substantiate , or mark it as hywpi.

Classic - so no rules argument, just appeals to "what makes sense".

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Naw - yet have managed to provide no rules or argument as to why. Just an opinion. Please follow the tenets and substantiate , or mark it as hywpi.

Classic - so no rules argument, just appeals to "what makes sense".

Its as much of a "rules argument" as anybody else has presented. RAW, # of powers cast per turn is dependent on ML. RAW, ML is NOT the only factor that dictates the total number of powers available to a psyker. Therefore, we can safely conclude that ML and # of powers available are not interchangable. Since only ML is mentioned in the rule as the determining factor for how many powers can be cast per turn per psyker, then only ML should apply, thus the 1:1 interpretation.

I readily admit that the rule was worded with just enough ambiguity to cause a debate on intention. As such,we are pretty much forced to try and find the interpretation that makes the most sense using what is written. Isn't that the point of these discussions?

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Naw - yet have managed to provide no rules or argument as to why. Just an opinion. Please follow the tenets and substantiate , or mark it as hywpi.

Classic - so no rules argument, just appeals to "what makes sense".

Its as much of a "rules argument" as anybody else has presented. RAW, # of powers cast per turn is dependent on ML. RAW, ML is NOT the only factor that dictates the total number of powers available to a psyker. Therefore, we can safely conclude that ML and # of powers available are not interchangable. Since only ML is mentioned in the rule as the determining factor for how many powers can be cast per turn per psyker, then only ML should apply, thus the 1:1 interpretation.

I readily admit that the rule was worded with just enough ambiguity to cause a debate on intention. As such,we are pretty much forced to try and find the interpretation that makes the most sense using what is written. Isn't that the point of these discussions?

The problem is there is no support for 1:1. It could just as easily be 2 powers per Mastery Level, in which case it is still dependent on Mastery Level.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Naw - yet have managed to provide no rules or argument as to why. Just an opinion. Please follow the tenets and substantiate , or mark it as hywpi.

Classic - so no rules argument, just appeals to "what makes sense".

Its as much of a "rules argument" as anybody else has presented. RAW, # of powers cast per turn is dependent on ML. RAW, ML is NOT the only factor that dictates the total number of powers available to a psyker. Therefore, we can safely conclude that ML and # of powers available are not interchangable. Since only ML is mentioned in the rule as the determining factor for how many powers can be cast per turn per psyker, then only ML should apply, thus the 1:1 interpretation.

I readily admit that the rule was worded with just enough ambiguity to cause a debate on intention. As such,we are pretty much forced to try and find the interpretation that makes the most sense using what is written. Isn't that the point of these discussions?

The point of these discussions is to determine what RAW is, then you can offer a HIWPI but should not insist that is how everyone should play it.

I think we've determined that, RAW, Mastery Level has no direct (edit: and measurable) bearing on how many powers a psyker can cast per turn. You can choose to play it differently, but that doesn't change what the rules say.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Its as much of a "rules argument" as anybody else has presented. RAW, # of powers cast per turn is dependent on ML. RAW, ML is NOT the only factor that dictates the total number of powers available to a psyker. Therefore, we can safely conclude that ML and # of powers available are not interchangable. Since only ML is mentioned in the rule as the determining factor for how many powers can be cast per turn per psyker, then only ML should apply, thus the 1:1 interpretation.

Why is 1:1 any more reasonable than 2:1 or ML^2?
I mean, if you're going to make up a number at least make it fun.

rigeld2 wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Its as much of a "rules argument" as anybody else has presented. RAW, # of powers cast per turn is dependent on ML. RAW, ML is NOT the only factor that dictates the total number of powers available to a psyker. Therefore, we can safely conclude that ML and # of powers available are not interchangable. Since only ML is mentioned in the rule as the determining factor for how many powers can be cast per turn per psyker, then only ML should apply, thus the 1:1 interpretation.

Why is 1:1 any more reasonable than 2:1 or ML^2?
I mean, if you're going to make up a number at least make it fun.

Because ML is the only thing mentioned as the determining factor. ML is the only value that is constant and not influenced by other factors, factors that are not mentioned in the rule for determining the number of powers a psyker can cast per turn.

ML is not interchangable with the number of powers available because it is not the same 100% of the time. Faction, special rules, and the decision to focus in a discipline have as much of an impact to the number of powers known as ML does. The rule does not state that the number of powers a psyker can cast is dependent on ML, faction, special rules, and discipline focus, it just states ML as the sole dependency with no other references. In my opinion (and I'm not forcing it on anybody, just stating my case), the omission of those other factors leads to a 1:1 interpretation.

i think the best solution here is as always, talk to the person you are playing with, its baout having fun remmber.

also i belive its cast untill youre out of WC's in Most cases this will be the same number that you know, but in some it will let the caster be a littlle more versitle. and i do not think given that the powers are pooled now, it will break the game so unless i play some one who deeply resents the cast till you're out thats how i will play

remmber no matter how you play its about having fun, so thank you for all of youre thoughts reguarding this subject and ur responces i wanted to tlak about this to osme one but you guys did all the talking for me

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Naw - yet have managed to provide no rules or argument as to why. Just an opinion. Please follow the tenets and substantiate , or mark it as hywpi.

Classic - so no rules argument, just appeals to "what makes sense".

What on earth is your problem? Taking this a bit too personally, aren't you?

Just because you shout loudest does not make your view more correct.

Classic - so not a rules argument. Please mark it as hywpi it then.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Classic - so not a rules argument. Please mark it as hywpi it then.

I'm curious as to how my reasoning any less supported by the rules than any of the others? I'm giving supporting details that are supported by the rules.

And by the way, I've already stated before in an earlier post that its how I will play it until its FAQed otherwise, and that its my opinion. Until we get a FAQ, all of these need to be marked HYWPI, so why single only those that you don't agree with?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Classic - so not a rules argument. Please mark it as hywpi it then.

You just don't get it, do you? There isn't anything definite in the rules to prove either point. Had you read all messages rather than gone off tangent you would have noticed how I were to play it. To repeat, HIWPI: Can cast as many powers as the caster knows, until run out of warp charges. And no repeating the same power.

Now take the chill pill already.

I had read them all. Stop assuming otherwise.

The point IS proven. I explained how the number of powers I can cast is dependent on ml, just not solely so. There is no unproven side, just one with rules support, and one claiming the word "only" has been inserted, and a 1:1 ratio made up from whole cloth.

I think there is only 1 choice left. As is pointed out there is no number assigned to how many powers a psyker can use, then he obviously can't use any.

it's not 1:1 as that's not stated
it's not all powers knows as that's not stated

as no numbers or ratios are used, then none is the only answer left.

Kyutaru - rule one, reported.

The point is proven, as the dependency was shown, and the further rules allowing you to keep casting while you have warp charges adds to this.

Hi, Little O/T question (first time poster, long time lurker). If you have a masterly level one psyker, does that mean he gets his one psychic attack, along with the primaris power of that discipline (as they can't take any alternate powers being level one), if thats the case, then someone like an astropath in a guard army becomes very powerful (and cheap).

and also, if I be tight with my dice pool and only use the required amount on the card how can you suffer the perils of the warp? the way i read, you need a double 6 to suffer perils, but if the power only need one dice do i count myself lucky when i roll a six on the one dice i use to cast?


back on topic, it seems to contradict its self in the rules (as many have pointed out), i would assume that before a game you would discuss what rule to use (myself, when playing in my house, we use the as many powers a you have dice rule, i'm yet to play anyone else to see how they interpret the rule).

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Its as much of a "rules argument" as anybody else has presented. RAW, # of powers cast per turn is dependent on ML. RAW, ML is NOT the only factor that dictates the total number of powers available to a psyker. Therefore, we can safely conclude that ML and # of powers available are not interchangable. Since only ML is mentioned in the rule as the determining factor for how many powers can be cast per turn per psyker, then only ML should apply, thus the 1:1 interpretation.

Why is 1:1 any more reasonable than 2:1 or ML^2?
I mean, if you're going to make up a number at least make it fun.

Because ML is the only thing mentioned as the determining factor. ML is the only value that is constant and not influenced by other factors, factors that are not mentioned in the rule for determining the number of powers a psyker can cast per turn.

ML is not interchangable with the number of powers available because it is not the same 100% of the time. Faction, special rules, and the decision to focus in a discipline have as much of an impact to the number of powers known as ML does. The rule does not state that the number of powers a psyker can cast is dependent on ML, faction, special rules, and discipline focus, it just states ML as the sole dependency with no other references. In my opinion (and I'm not forcing it on anybody, just stating my case), the omission of those other factors leads to a 1:1 interpretation.

We argued the same point in another thread that was locked despite maintaining a civilized rules discussion. A number of individuals are keen on asserting their vision of the rules regardless of RAW actually states and are going to great lengths to ensure all opposing views are shot down and branded as heretics. I've had several of these guys on my ignore list for weeks. Just know that your interpretation has been supported by no less than five other posters here. It's the only law-abiding explanation despite what the opposition claims as they seek to defenestrate the ML dependency by clinging to a flimsy hold on their interpretation of the word dependency with no RAW support to back it.

This is just another disagreement where the loudest screamer prevails and each side has several extreme lobbyists with more post.counts than sense.

For the slightly less biased answer -

There is some debate as to just what the rules mean on this.

One argument is that when the rules say that the number of powers you can cast is dependant on your mastery level, it means that the number of powers you can cast is equal to your mastery level. This is not directly stated in the rules, however.

Another argument holds that since the rules say that you can keep casting until you run out of Warp Charges, and the actual dependancy relationship is never explained, you can cast as many powers as you have, provided you have sufficient Warp Charges. This argument requires you to largely ignore the line about casting being dependant on your Mastery Level.

The third argument is that the rule saying that casting is dependant on your Mastery Level is meaningless without some statement as to how it is dependant, and so as the rules currently stand there is simply no way to determine how many powers a unit can cast.

As Kyutaru said, this was thoroughly hashed out here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/599772.page
What it boils down to is that, until GW FAQ it, you'll need to discuss it with your opponent.

For your second question, yes, if you don't roll enough dice to score a double 6, you won't suffer perils.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Never mind - just realised that this was the previous thread, dredged up again. Not really much point revisiting it again yet, as nothing has been fixed.