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how hard is it, it says you cast as many spells as you are ML, you have a ML2 caster it casts 2 spells.

A caster with a force weapon that is ml2 can potentially have 4 spells to cast, but can only cast two because he is ML2. NOT HARD AT ALL, and to be truthful, you need serious help if you believe otherwise.

 Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
how hard is it, it says you cast as many spells as you are ML, you have a ML2 caster it casts 2 spells.

That's not what it says though.

 Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
how hard is it, it says you cast as many spells as you are ML, you have a ML2 caster it casts 2 spells.

A caster with a force weapon that is ml2 can potentially have 4 spells to cast, but can only cast two because he is ML2. NOT HARD AT ALL, and to be truthful, you need serious help if you believe otherwise.

Sure, if you make up rules you can make it sound really easy and to be truthful, be rude to people all you want.
That's not actually what the rule says though and I'd prefer to play by the actual rules than AdmiralGeneralAladeen40k.

 Admiral General Aladeen wrote:
how hard is it, it says you cast as many spells as you are ML, you have a ML2 caster it casts 2 spells.

While I agree with you, the bolded part isn't in the rules - not even as an example. This has created some confusion among the players; the facts that you use a floating resource (WC) to cast and that a model can know more powers than its ML adds up to this.

For a normal Psyker, though, ML determines the number of powers that he knows (focused or not, the number is determined by ML) and that limits the number of powers he can use since a power can't be used twice. ML2. Know two powers. Can only use two powers since you can' dup in a turn. Thus ML determines the number of powers a Psyker uses in a turn. Choose to focus and gain an extra power as a bonus. Have a force weapon, gain an extra power. Regardless, ML determines the number of powers you can use in a turn.

text removed.


Please don't speak to other users like this.

Reds8n

How about where it says: "If, After attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit... but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic Phase." No mention of a limit based on ML, just a flat, if you have warp charges, and you have uncast powers you can keep going until you run out of one or the other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only time the new BRB references ML, is in determining how many powers you generate, which with Focus can easily exceed your ML, and when determining how many warp charges you have in a phase (total of MLs +d6). After that ML has no bearing cause it's already done its job, twice over. It is not reference any where in the actual casting sections of the psychic phase cause it is no longer relevant. The only relevant factors are, do you have Warp Charges left, and do know powers that haven't been cast yet?

The focus thing only allows you to have an extra power, not cast an extra power. A mastery level one psyker from codex space marines will have 3 powers if he goes all in on let's say prescience. Force, primaris, and the randomly generated spell he rolled for.

Now if he uses any one of the 3 he has in his psychic phase he is done casting. That's it not vague just very simple. A psyker can cast 1 per mastery level. Period.

Look to the bolded text under the heading mastery levels, in the psychic phase section of the 7 the edition brb. It's so clear it's ridicules.

Lungpickle wrote:
A psyker can cast 1 per mastery level. Period.

Find a rule that says that.

“The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level. Iirc I'm quoting from memory.

Lungpickle wrote:
“The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level. Iirc I'm quoting from memory.

The point that several others (insaniak and rigeld, I think) are making is that, without further details, we don't know what correlation that dependency is.
It could be a 1:1 correlation, where you may cast one power per PML. But it could also be a 1:5 correlation, where you may cast five powers per PML. The rules do not specify.

I believe RAI to be 1:1. That's HIWPI, and I hope that's HEWPI (everyone). But RAW....it's undefined.

Lungpickle wrote:
“The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level. Iirc I'm quoting from memory.

That is what it says. But it doesn't say it is a one-to-one dependence.
Eg - y = x*x . Y depends on X. But Y does not = X.
It also works as an indirect dependence. The number of powers cast depends on the mastery level (because the mastery level changes how many warp charges you have).

IMO the proper reading of that sentence is just flavour text.

Wow just wow..

Whether or not you can cast more powers is dependent on whether you have known powers you haven't used yet, or warp charges remaining. Both of those things are dependent on your ML.

There for the number of powers you can cast per turn IS dependent on your mastery level. And that rule is met. So unless you have another rule stating a one to one relationship, we are left with a caster can keep throwing out powers so long as he knows more powers and hasn't used up the warp charge pool for the turn.

Problem with that terrible logic is that you're suggesting that focusing powers allows you to cast more of them each turn. You're arbitrarily granting those with more powers due to a dependence on a single discipline the ability to spam.

While you can argue over what "dependent" means till you're blue, in no way do the rules grant you the ability to use unlimited powers either. You can use the same half-assed logic that you are using to denounce the word "dependent" and apply it to your use of the manifesting next power clause.

Ergo, you either accept that the rules haven't change since sixth edition and the rules specify the dependency on mastery level as they always have and half indicate, or you admit that the rules are unclear either way and the status is undefined, to which either house rules get applied or we take the Common Sense approach and go with whatever it was in the last edition (mastery level).

It cannot be conclusively stated one way or another.

Time to lawyer in.

"The number of psychic powers a Psycher can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level". BWB (Big White Book?), page 22, paragraph 4.

This can be interpreted in two obvious ways:

1) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is equal to his Mastery Level. Note that the wording of the rule uses the word "depends", rather than "is equal to". They are not the same thing, and the rulebook does not state with clarity that a Mastery Level 1 Psyker can only cast one Psychic Power per turn.

The fact that option 1) is not clear opens the door to a second interpretation:

2) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is determined in some way by his Mastery Level, but that determination is not listed in that paragraph. The implied extension is that the Psyker only knows a certain number of powers (based on his Mastery Level), and that this is how the number of Psychic Powers he can cast "depends on his Mastery Level".



No-one here has authority to rule if the correct play is 1 or 2, so we just need to wait for an FAQ.

Kyutaru wrote:
Ergo, you either accept that the rules haven't change since sixth edition and the rules specify the dependency on mastery level as they always have and half indicate, or you admit that the rules are unclear either way and the status is undefined, to which either house rules get applied or we take the Common Sense approach and go with whatever it was in the last edition (mastery level).

I was with you on your second choice, up to the point where you enforced your preference on the world. What you should have said was:

"or you admit that the rules are unclear either way and the status is undefined, to which either house rules get applied or we take the Common Sense approach and go with whatever the players agree on for the game (or roll off)."

Importing rules from the last edition has nothing to do with common sense, just what you would prefer the rules to be at the moment.

Kyutaru wrote:
Problem with that terrible logic is that you're suggesting that focusing powers allows you to cast more of them each turn. You're arbitrarily granting those with more powers due to a dependence on a single discipline the ability to spam.

While you can argue over what "dependent" means till you're blue, in no way do the rules grant you the ability to use unlimited powers either. You can use the same half-assed logic that you are using to denounce the word "dependent" and apply it to your use of the manifesting next power clause.

Ergo, you either accept that the rules haven't change since sixth edition and the rules specify the dependency on mastery level as they always have and half indicate, or you admit that the rules are unclear either way and the status is undefined, to which either house rules get applied or we take the Common Sense approach and go with whatever it was in the last edition (mastery level).

And the problem with your logic is that the only justification for it is "that's how it worked in 6th ed" When, psychic powers are the thing that has changed the most since 6th ed, that is a very weak stance to take. The quote you are holding on to isn't specific enough to justify either interpretation, and therefor you have to go further into the chapter to find the meaning... which is exactly what I have done.

Xyptc wrote:
It cannot be conclusively stated one way or another.

Time to lawyer in.

"The number of psychic powers a Psycher can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level". BWB (Big White Book?), page 22, paragraph 4.

This can be interpreted in two obvious ways:

1) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is equal to his Mastery Level. Note that the wording of the rule uses the word "depends", rather than "is equal to". They are not the same thing, and the rulebook does not state with clarity that a Mastery Level 1 Psyker can only cast one Psychic Power per turn.

The fact that option 1) is not clear opens the door to a second interpretation:

2) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is determined in some way by his Mastery Level, but that determination is not listed in that paragraph. The implied extension is that the Psyker only knows a certain number of powers (based on his Mastery Level), and that this is how the number of Psychic Powers he can cast "depends on his Mastery Level".



No-one here has authority to rule if the correct play is 1 or 2, so we just need to wait for an FAQ.
[...]

Thank you!

the number of powers he can casts depends on his mastery level, as he can only cast the powers he knows, and he only knows so many powers.

the number of units you can take in a game depends on the points - a 2000 point game does not mean I can take 2000 units.

oddly now ork weirdboys are to most proficient psykers, capable of casting 6 powers a turn as a level 1 psyker. 'course you'd get at most 1 dice per power, and have to roll randomly to see which one you get, and can't cast the same one twice. and one means you explode. but allied with chaos and if chaos, for some reason, don't use any of their own powers, he'd have more dice to play with.

makes denials odd if you don't know whether you're firing a witchfire or a blessing until after the psychic test is passed though. guessing until the new 'dex comes out, i'll have to roll my charges, determine the power, pick a target and then let them deny.

go orks, breaking the new rules thoroughly from the safety of 4th edition!

nothing states that a psyker can cast the number of powers equal to his level, only that it depends.

 some bloke wrote:
oddly now ork weirdboys are to most proficient psykers, capable of casting 6 powers a turn as a level 1 psyker. 'course you'd get at most 1 dice per power, and have to roll randomly to see which one you get, and can't cast the same one twice. and one means you explode. but allied with chaos and if chaos, for some reason, don't use any of their own powers, he'd have more dice to play with.

makes denials odd if you don't know whether you're firing a witchfire or a blessing until after the psychic test is passed though. guessing until the new 'dex comes out, i'll have to roll my charges, determine the power, pick a target and then let them deny.

go orks, breaking the new rules thoroughly from the safety of 4th edition!

nothing states that a psyker can cast the number of powers equal to his level, only that it depends.

Weirdboys are now Psyker (Mastery Level 1) and must roll on Daemonology., so at most they have 2 powers.

Just like Eldar Warlocks.

Who will soon be dying in droves due to Perils just to summon Greater Unclean Ones.


Or Lords of Change.

Xyptc wrote:
It cannot be conclusively stated one way or another.

Time to lawyer in.

"The number of psychic powers a Psycher can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level". BWB (Big White Book?), page 22, paragraph 4.

This can be interpreted in two obvious ways:

1) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is equal to his Mastery Level. Note that the wording of the rule uses the word "depends", rather than "is equal to". They are not the same thing, and the rulebook does not state with clarity that a Mastery Level 1 Psyker can only cast one Psychic Power per turn.

It also does not state that lvl 1 psyker can cast more than 1 psychic power per turn. So there we are. Based on the rule you quoted, which would be more probable?

2) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is determined in some way by his Mastery Level, but that determination is not listed in that paragraph. The implied extension is that the Psyker only knows a certain number of powers (based on his Mastery Level), and that this is how the number of Psychic Powers he can cast "depends on his Mastery Level".

You make a sudden leap from "how many powers can be cast" to "can cast as many powers as he knows" without any support by the rules. Yes, the Psyker can know more powers than what his ML is, but it is not supported anywhere in written form that it would be the number of powers he could also cast.

Naw wrote:

Xyptc wrote:
It cannot be conclusively stated one way or another.

Time to lawyer in.

"The number of psychic powers a Psycher can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level". BWB (Big White Book?), page 22, paragraph 4.

This can be interpreted in two obvious ways:

1) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is equal to his Mastery Level. Note that the wording of the rule uses the word "depends", rather than "is equal to". They are not the same thing, and the rulebook does not state with clarity that a Mastery Level 1 Psyker can only cast one Psychic Power per turn.

It also does not state that lvl 1 psyker can cast more than 1 psychic power per turn. So there we are. Based on the rule you quoted, which would be more probable?

2) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is determined in some way by his Mastery Level, but that determination is not listed in that paragraph. The implied extension is that the Psyker only knows a certain number of powers (based on his Mastery Level), and that this is how the number of Psychic Powers he can cast "depends on his Mastery Level".

You make a sudden leap from "how many powers can be cast" to "can cast as many powers as he knows" without any support by the rules. Yes, the Psyker can know more powers than what his ML is, but it is not supported anywhere in written form that it would be the number of powers he could also cast.

How about this support in the rules: "If, After attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit" (BRB pg. 24 last paragraph under the first column)

Nowhere in that paragraph, or any other does it say you have to stop after you've cast some number of powers, it only says to stop if you run out of charges, and that you can't cast the same power twice.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:


The point that several others (insaniak and rigeld, I think) are making is that, without further details, we don't know what correlation that dependency is.

This.

To be clear, I fully believe that they intended for it to be a straight 1:1 correlation. But the rule as written simply doesn't give us that information.

chanceafs wrote:

Naw wrote:

Xyptc wrote:
It cannot be conclusively stated one way or another.

Time to lawyer in.

"The number of psychic powers a Psycher can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level". BWB (Big White Book?), page 22, paragraph 4.

This can be interpreted in two obvious ways:

1) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is equal to his Mastery Level. Note that the wording of the rule uses the word "depends", rather than "is equal to". They are not the same thing, and the rulebook does not state with clarity that a Mastery Level 1 Psyker can only cast one Psychic Power per turn.

It also does not state that lvl 1 psyker can cast more than 1 psychic power per turn. So there we are. Based on the rule you quoted, which would be more probable?

2) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is determined in some way by his Mastery Level, but that determination is not listed in that paragraph. The implied extension is that the Psyker only knows a certain number of powers (based on his Mastery Level), and that this is how the number of Psychic Powers he can cast "depends on his Mastery Level".

You make a sudden leap from "how many powers can be cast" to "can cast as many powers as he knows" without any support by the rules. Yes, the Psyker can know more powers than what his ML is, but it is not supported anywhere in written form that it would be the number of powers he could also cast.

How about this support in the rules: "If, After attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit" (BRB pg. 24 last paragraph under the first column)

Nowhere in that paragraph, or any other does it say you have to stop after you've cast some number of powers, it only says to stop if you run out of charges, and that you can't cast the same power twice.

If you attach a ML3 psyker to a unit of guardians, how many psychic powers does the unit know?

Do combine those two rules:
ML defines how many, whereas this other rule prevents casting the same power again, should it be possible based on the first rule.

Lungpickle wrote:
“The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level. Iirc I'm quoting from memory.

And ML also determines how many powers a psyker can have. So if ML1 determines that a psyker can have two powers (roll plus primaris), then doesn't it follow that using the same process the psyker can cast two powers? Needs an FAQ.

Naw wrote:

chanceafs wrote:

Naw wrote:

Xyptc wrote:
It cannot be conclusively stated one way or another.

Time to lawyer in.

"The number of psychic powers a Psycher can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level". BWB (Big White Book?), page 22, paragraph 4.

This can be interpreted in two obvious ways:

1) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is equal to his Mastery Level. Note that the wording of the rule uses the word "depends", rather than "is equal to". They are not the same thing, and the rulebook does not state with clarity that a Mastery Level 1 Psyker can only cast one Psychic Power per turn.

It also does not state that lvl 1 psyker can cast more than 1 psychic power per turn. So there we are. Based on the rule you quoted, which would be more probable?

2) The number of Psychic Powers that can be cast each turn by a Psyker is determined in some way by his Mastery Level, but that determination is not listed in that paragraph. The implied extension is that the Psyker only knows a certain number of powers (based on his Mastery Level), and that this is how the number of Psychic Powers he can cast "depends on his Mastery Level".

You make a sudden leap from "how many powers can be cast" to "can cast as many powers as he knows" without any support by the rules. Yes, the Psyker can know more powers than what his ML is, but it is not supported anywhere in written form that it would be the number of powers he could also cast.

How about this support in the rules: "If, After attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit" (BRB pg. 24 last paragraph under the first column)

Nowhere in that paragraph, or any other does it say you have to stop after you've cast some number of powers, it only says to stop if you run out of charges, and that you can't cast the same power twice.

If you attach a ML3 psyker to a unit of guardians, how many psychic powers does the unit know?

Do combine those two rules:
ML defines how many, whereas this other rule prevents casting the same power again, should it be possible based on the first rule.

So we should ignore the rule stated in the part of the chapter on Manifesting powers, in favor of a general rule from an earlier section that is not specific enough to tell us what to do...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if you want to get technical... Mastery Level wasn't even a flat limit on the number of powers you could cast in a turn in 6th ed. For example, Eldrad Uthran (ML 4), was able to cast all 4 powers he knew, regain warp charges via the Spiritlink ability on the Staff of Ulthamar, and then use one of those charges to activate that weapons force abilities in the same round, which was effectively casting a 5th power.

Are you sure the rules are in contradiction?

Also you did not answer my question.

Naw wrote:
Are you sure the rules are in contradiction?

Also you did not answer my question.

I never claimed the rules were in contradiction, and I have in fact shown how they are logically related. ML determines how many warp charges you have, and how many powers you know... and how many warp charges you have + how many powers you know in turn determines how many powers you can cast.... therefore, how much you can cast is determined by your mastery level. (as the first rule states). What you have yet to do is show a single rule quote that disproves this chain of connection, or that proves "dependent on" = 1:1 ratio.

I didn't answer your question, because I don't see how it's relevant to the question at hand.

"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level"

This is a vague rule that could have multiple meanings (thus this thread). So far we haven't shown permission for a psyker to cast more powers than his mastery level...

"If, After attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit... but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic Phase."

Now we have permission to cast multiple powers from the same unit, without referring to the mastery level. The first rule doesn't directly deny this rule.

Perhaps the first rule is referring to the fact that your available warp charges are limited by the mastery level, therefore it is true that the number of spells a psyker can cast is limited by his mastery level. A psyker with PML 1 may have 3 powers but if you only have 2 warp charges then he's only going to get 1 maybe 2 spells off. This demonstrates that the number of powers he can cast is indeed limited by his mastery level. So the vague sentence has been shown to have multiple meanings and has no definite effect on the rules.

All they had to do was to put an example paragraph...

Dan is trying to cast a Protect power with one of his Eldar Warlocks. He picks up two dice (to have more chances to successfully cast it, even needing only 1 die) and rolls. He rolls a 6 and a 2, obtaining a success! Robin has no Warp Charge dice remaining, so cannot attempt to Deny the Witch against Dan's casting.
After resolving the psychic power, Dan would like to cast Conceal; his Warlock has access to this psychic power because of the Psychic Focus rule - so the Warlock knows 2 psychic powers even having only 1 Mastery Level (he could roll only once in a table the Warlock have access). Alas, as the Warlock has only 1 Mastery Level, it is entitled to cast only once per Psychic Phase. The Psychic Focus rule (and any other rule that adds Psychic Powers, as Scrolls of Magnus artefact in Codex: Chaos Space Marines) adds a broader knowledge of the Warp and how to manipulate it, but the effort to cast over your natural ability is too much in the field of battle.
A model can't cast, in any Psychic sub-phase, a number of psychic powers higher than his Mastery Level.