So the heldrake was directly and indirectly nerfed. The indirect nerf came with the changes to vector strike. The direct nerf came from the FAQ limiting the ranged weapons to hullmounted. While I was never against nerfing the heldrake (or increasing its point cost), I am upset it was done without buffing anything. There is somewhat of a general consensus that the best units in the CSM codex are the heldrake and obliterators. Everything else is kind of wimpy or grossly overcosted (175 points for a forgefiend, really? Got Defiler? HQs?). Prior to the new edition CSM codex was hard enough to to field, with players either choosing repetitive lists or choosing to take an almost certain to be weak list. Now it just seems worse.

Am I wrong here? There are some benefits to the new edition, but for each of them I see other armies benefiting in the same or better ways. I honestly think CSM is one of the worst, if not the worst, codexes in the game. Sisters and DA may be worse, but I don't know. What do you all think?

 Nuln_Oil wrote:
So the heldrake was directly and indirectly nerfed. The indirect nerf came with the changes to vector strike. The direct nerf came from the FAQ limiting the ranged weapons to hullmounted. While I was never against nerfing the heldrake (or increasing its point cost), I am upset it was done without buffing anything. There is somewhat of a general consensus that the best units in the CSM codex are the heldrake and obliterators. Everything else is kind of wimpy or grossly overcosted (175 points for a forgefiend, really? Got Defiler? HQs?). Prior to the new edition CSM codex was hard enough to to field, with players either choosing repetitive lists or choosing to take an almost certain to be weak list. Now it just seems worse.

Am I wrong here? There are some benefits to the new edition, but for each of them I see other armies benefiting in the same or better ways. I honestly think CSM is one of the worst, if not the worst, codexes in the game. Sisters and DA may be worse, but I don't know. What do you all think?

How'd they nerf vector strike?

It's only one hit now, not 1+D3. Although it is AP 2, instead of 3.

The new Vector Strike is D3 against Zooming Flyers/Swooping FMCs, though. There's that.

Let's wait some time. Perhaps they will update the FAQ with the turret-mounted designation.

I'm most likely wrong and I don't have my book to hand but aren't flamers in a different section to regular ranged weapons? So that faq refers to the hades cannon? Wishful thinking?

 Nuln_Oil wrote:
Sisters and DA may be worse, but I don't know. What do you all think?

Well, do you think your Chaos Lord is a good and interesting choice ? Now, imagine the same point cost for -1WS, -1S, -1T, maybe -1A (I do not remember), stubborn instead of fearless, no Champion of Chaos special rule, but in exchange getting a 6++, Adamantium Will, and a once-per-game Hatred if you manage to pass a Ld test. Also, access to way less wargear, including no bikes, no jump pack, no 2+ save.
That is the Canoness.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Nuln_Oil wrote:
Sisters and DA may be worse, but I don't know. What do you all think?

Well, do you think your Chaos Lord is a good and interesting choice ? Now, imagine the same point cost for -1WS, -1S, -1T, maybe -1A (I do not remember), stubborn instead of fearless, no Champion of Chaos special rule, but in exchange getting a 6++, Adamantium Will, and a once-per-game Hatred if you manage to pass a Ld test. Also, access to way less wargear, including no bikes, no jump pack, no 2+ save.
That is the Canoness.

You forgot the part where she also is a mostly punchy HQ choice in a shooty army who doesn't mesh with anything else in the army.

 Nuln_Oil wrote:
So the heldrake was directly and indirectly nerfed. The indirect nerf came with the changes to vector strike. The direct nerf came from the FAQ limiting the ranged weapons to hullmounted. While I was never against nerfing the heldrake (or increasing its point cost), I am upset it was done without buffing anything. There is somewhat of a general consensus that the best units in the CSM codex are the heldrake and obliterators. Everything else is kind of wimpy or grossly overcosted (175 points for a forgefiend, really? Got Defiler? HQs?). Prior to the new edition CSM codex was hard enough to to field, with players either choosing repetitive lists or choosing to take an almost certain to be weak list. Now it just seems worse.

Am I wrong here? There are some benefits to the new edition, but for each of them I see other armies benefiting in the same or better ways. I honestly think CSM is one of the worst, if not the worst, codexes in the game. Sisters and DA may be worse, but I don't know. What do you all think?

Chaos players will whine about their codex no matter what.

The flaming hellturkey got buffed vs Open topped vehicles

wait the helldrake's flamer is still torrent, isnt it?

Oh and in 7th edition you can roast EVERYONE on a building, not just one level

Wow. Try being a BA player pal. Your army got nerfed??

Black Templars would like to know if you still have your own dex, or just a paragraph of washed out afterthought in somebody elses book?

"My army is bad too so you have no right to complain."

Awesome arguments.

It does suck that chaos which as you say only had a few good units - though I'd add nurgle bikers, certain lords, spawn and plague marines as "good" units, and a couple others as decent - had one of it's better performing units nerfed. The basic problem however is still just that it was a bland 'dex released with poor internal balance in a system fraught with poor external balance.

The Drake will still be the bane of Marines, but just the ones infront of it now instead of with ass fire. With positioning of Torrent, you still get basically 180 degree arc.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Black Templars would like to know if you still have your own dex, or just a paragraph of washed out afterthought in somebody elses book?

Nobody cares.

Wow. Try being a BA player pal. Your army got nerfed??

Already was the worst in 6th, simply stayed at the bottom.

Chaos players will whine about their codex no matter what.

The flaming hellturkey got buffed vs Open topped vehicles

Course nobody is going to really take much helturkeys, what with CD not needing to take some extra CSM anymore, why would they?

I'm just disappointed that they still didn't allow assaulting from transports, would've opened up Berzerkers and Possessed slightly at least.

Now, the only thing stupid is the neck angle they modeled it at, and the fact that I have both drakes looking different directions...

CSM also got buffs to spell familiars, an even better Belkor, and better biomancy. It does not look like much got worse.

I'd measure it from the base of the neck myself. If someone complained, I'd greenstuff a tiny little dot there and say thats the baleflamer and the rest is just for show.

Heldrake took a hit, but also got some bonuses.

It now only explodes on a 7 (or a 6 if you roll poorly).

It can now benefit from Jink if it wants, whereas before it was redundant with it's 5+ invuln.

The Baleflamer can burn units inside open-topped transports.

Can't flamers also Skyfire now, and hit Flyers and FMC's?

So yeah, the Heldrake got a nerf in terms of it's 360' flamer and having a less aggressive vector strike, but it also gained a bit. It's at a nice place now, I think, in terms of cost and effectiveness. Will people stop taking them? I doubt it. Maybe we won't see Heldrake spam, but they will still be around and strong.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Black Templars would like to know if you still have your own dex, or just a paragraph of washed out afterthought in somebody elses book?

Nobody cares.

Source? Or just playing King of the Nerd Forums?

(doesnt expect source, goes back to Ork rumors where actual facts appear daily.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Black Templars would like to know if you still have your own dex, or just a paragraph of washed out afterthought in somebody elses book?

Nobody cares.

Wow. Try being a BA player pal. Your army got nerfed??

Already was the worst in 6th, simply stayed at the bottom.

Chaos players will whine about their codex no matter what.

The flaming hellturkey got buffed vs Open topped vehicles

Course nobody is going to really take much helturkeys, what with CD not needing to take some extra CSM anymore, why would they?

I'm just disappointed that they still didn't allow assaulting from transports, would've opened up Berzerkers and Possessed slightly at least.

Yeah...but we went from the bottom of the barrel to somewhere under the floor xD

 AdeptSister wrote:
CSM also got buffs to spell familiars, an even better Belkor, and better biomancy. It does not look like much got worse.

I agree on the Familiar buff but Be'lakor got worse. They took away puppet master and nerfed Terrify and Hallucination and everyone got Biomancy so that's not a buff.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:

 AdeptSister wrote:
CSM also got buffs to spell familiars, an even better Belkor, and better biomancy. It does not look like much got worse.

I agree on the Familiar buff but Be'lakor got worse. They took away puppet master and nerfed Terrify and Hallucination and everyone got Biomancy so that's not a buff.

Be'lakor could be interpreted as getting a buff, as he gets a guaranteed Invisibility and Shroud, which are busted strong.

CSM are still playable, in fact still pretty strong. You actually have to employ tactic now instead of spamming hellchickens.

News flash: the helldrake originally was NOT a turreted weapon - they straight up FAQ'd it to change that. It was powerful before that buff because it is really ,really hard to hide from a torrent flamer especially when its AP3. Giving it turret was the most broken thing they could have done to it.

And before you go "You play tau and youre telling me i need to actually try tactic? YOU PLAY TAU!" i dont do any tau cheese, in fact i play them in a rather unorthodox fashion. The few nerfs tau got affected me zilch because i never did it anyway.

I just want new marine scuplts with more options on the sprue.

Walkers are pretty decent now. Troops exist to sit on objectives and score while everyone else does the heavy lifting.

CSM have access to 8+ different kinds of walkers in every variety of cost and power, not including superheavies. They also have access to one of the cheapest, most cost-efficient troop choices in the game.

Battle-Forged CSM lists can run 200pts of troops and fill the rest up with walkers. Walkers raining from the skies, walkers infiltrating your homes, walkers traveling in packs and walkers line-dancing across the deployment zone.

Walkers.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

And before you go "You play tau and youre telling me i need to actually try tactic? YOU PLAY TAU!" i dont do any tau cheese, in fact i play them in a rather unorthodox fashion. The few nerfs tau got affected me zilch because i never did it anyway.

Worst. Argument. Ever.

rollawaythestone wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:

 AdeptSister wrote:
CSM also got buffs to spell familiars, an even better Belkor, and better biomancy. It does not look like much got worse.

I agree on the Familiar buff but Be'lakor got worse. They took away puppet master and nerfed Terrify and Hallucination and everyone got Biomancy so that's not a buff.

Be'lakor could be interpreted as getting a buff, as he gets a guaranteed Invisibility and Shroud, which are busted strong.

And it's harder to bounce his skull off the ground (not like many people were planning on landing him and assaulting with him afterall).

 Vineheart01 wrote:
CSM are still playable, in fact still pretty strong. You actually have to employ tactic now instead of spamming hellchickens.

News flash: the helldrake originally was NOT a turreted weapon - they straight up FAQ'd it to change that. It was powerful before that buff because it is really ,really hard to hide from a torrent flamer especially when its AP3. Giving it turret was the most broken thing they could have done to it.

And before you go "You play tau and youre telling me i need to actually try tactic? YOU PLAY TAU!" i dont do any tau cheese, in fact i play them in a rather unorthodox fashion. The few nerfs tau got affected me zilch because i never did it anyway.

All it really means is that we will see less CD lists take sorc/heldrake/cultists, and more CSM dropping in the charts, before they were rather low when it came to tournament winnings and as a result will simply drop further. Though with Be'lakor we might just see it continue though.

It's very likely we will just see less CSM allies and more pure CD due to their exponential buff with malefic, with tau/eldar/SM filling up the top slots as usual.

Though I shall continue to play my Host, if only because I enjoy the new ability to take both a slaanesh power and the primaris.

The nerf to Hull Mounted is rather strong. flamers even with torrent CANT HIT outside that arc (blast, large blast can, template cant) so you can only hit and wound in a very VERY small area.

if you want alternatives that are 10x more killy now, ally in some guard artilery an example would be, 2 psykers, min troops and 2-3 wvyerns. will cost you a little more than a drake, and you can take 3 detachments of them woot woot.
or you can take daemon allies, and up to 4 Tz heralds and 1 pink horrors per alli detachment.

sure its not the drake... but i can assure you that the wyverns will kill 3x what the drake can... maybe more now that the weapon is hull mounted

 Reptile(5iN) wrote:
I'm most likely wrong and I don't have my book to hand but aren't flamers in a different section to regular ranged weapons? So that faq refers to the hades cannon? Wishful thinking?

Flamers are measured from the base of a model, but does that override the part were vehicle weapons are measured from the weapon itself?

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:

 Reptile(5iN) wrote:
I'm most likely wrong and I don't have my book to hand but aren't flamers in a different section to regular ranged weapons? So that faq refers to the hades cannon? Wishful thinking?

Flamers are measured from the base of a model, but does that override the part were vehicle weapons are measured from the weapon itself?

Not on Walkers, so I'd say the same rules apply to the Heldrake.

I honestly think this issue is GW being dumb GW and forgetting to transfer over most of the crap from the 6th edition FAQ's.

For the Necron FAQ's which I've been running over with the comparisons, there are a number of rule changes and FAQ's that did not get carried over into the new FAQ. Things like our Hyperphase Swords are no longer listed as Power Swords, etc. So there's a good chance these things will get fixed.


Eventually

RivenSkull wrote:
I honestly think this issue is GW being dumb GW and forgetting to transfer over most of the crap from the 6th edition FAQ's.

For the Necron FAQ's which I've been running over with the comparisons, there are a number of rule changes and FAQ's that did not get carried over into the new FAQ. Things like our Hyperphase Swords are no longer listed as Power Swords, etc. So there's a good chance these things will get fixed.


Eventually

Hyperphase Swords are on the 3rd page, left column of the FAQ for Necrons. They're AP3 melee weapons.

Lol i'm sorry but you are counting your army on the helldrake being nerfed? take 3 its still dripping with cheese.

Omg a chaos lord who is gonna use them with the new powers.. crank out some psykers get some demon farm happening.

vector strike is ap 2 how so " my 3 drakes will vector strike your terminators then they will roast all you tac squads" 3 of 5 termies dead 20 marines dead.

they will errata each army once they can see the holes appear. its all good and well to cry and sulk and NERD RAGE. but in the end you picked the army not games workshop. cos if they picked your army you would be playing ultra marines lol.

Im looking at my army and as a gk player a lot of my rules are fubar. now people can deny my force weapons they can deny my hammerhands, im paying x amount of points for less now.

BUT

i looked at other alternatives, other fun little things ive always wanted to try but didnt and it seems like hey i can have some fun and still be competitive. you rage after 6 days of release. how many games have you actually played with the new rules? do you have a good baseline to rage at? or are you looking at a book and mathhammering and raging for no reason? be serious man.

look at tau getting d6 dispell dice woooooooooo against a demonfarm with 40+ dice getting god knows how many lil demons a turn. Hi Im necron i can get back up but your 5 squads of free troops just keep me in a tarpit of hate.

look at white scars players with the heavy customised bikes who now have to go oh wait lets just go back to all twin linked weapons because i now have to snap shot if im jink saving. which against a helldrake... omg they will have to jink save his flamer.

I see a little balance in most of the rule book ( i have not read it all)

even blood angels got a lil buff with the 7+ for exploding.... i see blood talons!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh oh yeah i forgot 30 man cultist squad with force weapons. psyker gods be praised. cultists can kill mc now

I think the changes to vector strike are more of a buff than a debuff. AP2 is a lot more effective against flyers [which the drake wasn't too good against], since the flyer's low AV makes it easy to get a pen hit.

 Nuln_Oil wrote:
DA may be worse,

Ravenwing with the Dakka banner.

Some of us remember using them as hull mounted weapons anyway, it wasn't that bad. But with the old FAQ Heldrakes were too good. At least now I won't have to put up with moaning whenever I use just one.

For 170 points they're still a bargain.

So yes the heldrake took an nerf (back to before the previous FAQ with shooting), but also got a bit better at being able to kill things in ruins, and open topped vehicles. Certainly not even, but it is not a bad unit.

All walkers got a bit buffed with new damage table, and the reduction of smash attacks by MCs.

Champion of Chaos got a little less nerfed because wounds carry over out of combat, so your killy lord no longer just kills one guy and turns into a spawn.

Chaos Sorcerers got buffed with spell familiars/bale star being even better, and the ability to get 4 powers (with psychic focus)

Through use of said psychic powers things like spawn got better (Endurance on spawn makes them pretty gross, same with invisibility.)

Belakor got better.

Using Daemons as allies got better because you can take 4 heralds if you want.

Are CSM great, no but I think other than the drake they are better than they were last edition (Objective secured Rhinos, ZOmbies etc.) with the exception of being Heldrake allies.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

RivenSkull wrote:
I honestly think this issue is GW being dumb GW and forgetting to transfer over most of the crap from the 6th edition FAQ's.

For the Necron FAQ's which I've been running over with the comparisons, there are a number of rule changes and FAQ's that did not get carried over into the new FAQ. Things like our Hyperphase Swords are no longer listed as Power Swords, etc. So there's a good chance these things will get fixed.


Eventually

Hyperphase Swords are on the 3rd page, left column of the FAQ for Necrons. They're AP3 melee weapons.

Missed that. Joys of reading at 3am

Though, the lack of a number of the old FAQ's like the wounding on 2+ Hunters from Hyperspace applying to Royal Court members is something akin to that idea of missing things.

Either way, there's a chance GW messed up on the FAQ's and Errata's in places that could change in the future.

It's really a mixed bag.

Unmarked Sorcerers got better with Spell Familars and 4 powers if they choose a single discipline.

Daemon Engines and Walkers got a tad bit better.

The Decimator and Chaos Contemptor got way better, to the Point I would seriously consider using them.

The Heldrake got more survivable, not that it needed it, but I personally think that the Vector Strike nerf was enough. The weapon really should have stayed turret mounted.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Nuln_Oil wrote:
Sisters and DA may be worse, but I don't know. What do you all think?

Well, do you think your Chaos Lord is a good and interesting choice ? Now, imagine the same point cost for -1WS, -1S, -1T, maybe -1A (I do not remember), stubborn instead of fearless, no Champion of Chaos special rule, but in exchange getting a 6++, Adamantium Will, and a once-per-game Hatred if you manage to pass a Ld test. Also, access to way less wargear, including no bikes, no jump pack, no 2+ save.
That is the Canoness.

You forgot the part where she also is a mostly punchy HQ choice in a shooty army who doesn't mesh with anything else in the army.

And the fact it is the only available generic HQ.

 Sasori wrote:
It's really a mixed bag.The Decimator and Chaos Contemptor got way better, to the Point I would seriously consider using them.

I should look more into the updated rules. I have 3 decimators and would love to use them.

 Yonan wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
It's really a mixed bag.The Decimator and Chaos Contemptor got way better, to the Point I would seriously consider using them.

I should look more into the updated rules. I have 3 decimators and would love to use them.

AV 13/12/11, 5++, Daemonic Resilience, can ignore Weapon Destroyed and Immobilised on a 5+. Siege Claw is S8 AP2 CCW with Shred and Smash. Oh, it can also DS.

My new and improved Decimator longs for some TMC blood.

text removed.

Reds8n

 SarisKhan wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
It's really a mixed bag.The Decimator and Chaos Contemptor got way better, to the Point I would seriously consider using them.

I should look more into the updated rules. I have 3 decimators and would love to use them.

AV 13/12/11, 5++, Daemonic Resilience, can ignore Weapon Destroyed and Immobilised on a 5+. Siege Claw is S8 AP2 CCW with Shred and Smash. Oh, it can also DS.

My new and improved Decimator longs for some TMC blood.

Don't forget it can burn the occupants of transports it wrecks. And it can get back up after it's wrecked.

If you take it part of a Daemon Codex, and mark it, It benefits from the "Daemon of" rules as well.

OVerall, it's a lot better than it was.

RivenSkull wrote:
Either way, there's a chance GW messed up on the FAQ's and Errata's in places that could change in the future.

I would say there's exactly zero chance. It's not like GW simply forgot to include the Hellturkey in the FAQ. They explicitly included it and described it as having hull mounted weapons. That's a very deliberate act.

I never fielded a hell drake since they represented (for me) the most grossly broken unit in the codex. Not fun to play against at all. now that they have been toned down slightly they will be a lot more fun to play.

Cheers.

 Sasori wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
It's really a mixed bag.The Decimator and Chaos Contemptor got way better, to the Point I would seriously consider using them.

I should look more into the updated rules. I have 3 decimators and would love to use them.

AV 13/12/11, 5++, Daemonic Resilience, can ignore Weapon Destroyed and Immobilised on a 5+. Siege Claw is S8 AP2 CCW with Shred and Smash. Oh, it can also DS.

My new and improved Decimator longs for some TMC blood.

Don't forget it can burn the occupants of transports it wrecks. And it can get back up after it's wrecked.

If you take it part of a Daemon Codex, and mark it, It benefits from the "Daemon of" rules as well.

OVerall, it's a lot better than it was.

Is it really worth its points cost though? A helbrute costs half as much and has similar cc attacks. Sure it isn't as durable but for the points cost it doesn't seem like the decimator is a bargain. The dual butcher cannon setup is similar to a forge fiend but again more expensive. Although the FF is a HS slot so I guess you could go for 3 of each for a hail of S8 shooting.

AFAIK the Decimator never was a "very good" unit, but it definitely has got buffed indirectly with the new rules. Previously it was a "well, it looks cool", now it's "it may actually kick some arse".

It seems to be quite good in CC, mostly because of the AV 13/5++ combo. If you want a shooty Walker the other ones are probably better (cheaper).

 Murdius Maximus wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Black Templars would like to know if you still have your own dex, or just a paragraph of washed out afterthought in somebody elses book?

Nobody cares.

Wow. Try being a BA player pal. Your army got nerfed??

Already was the worst in 6th, simply stayed at the bottom.

Chaos players will whine about their codex no matter what.

The flaming hellturkey got buffed vs Open topped vehicles

Course nobody is going to really take much helturkeys, what with CD not needing to take some extra CSM anymore, why would they?

I'm just disappointed that they still didn't allow assaulting from transports, would've opened up Berzerkers and Possessed slightly at least.

Yeah...but we went from the bottom of the barrel to somewhere under the floor xD

The simily I was thinking of was having our head held down in a giant puddle to being chained to breeze blocks and thrown into the ocean.

Take away fast on our vehicles yet pay the same points is the worst. But also - gw did not sort out the dramatic disadvantage assault has compared to shooting. Our only viable HQ that was already 35pts more expensive than the SM equivalent, lost access to BA powers (so no 2 powers in 1 turn with shield) and we can't afford to take enough psykers to make a libby useful with how the power dice pool works now.
The only advantages we gained were the furioso libby gained psyker level 2, but this is offset by no longer having access to wings of sanguinius (plus who ever took furiiso libbys anyway?), and mephy being able to be joined by ICs.

JubbJubbz wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
It's really a mixed bag.The Decimator and Chaos Contemptor got way better, to the Point I would seriously consider using them.

I should look more into the updated rules. I have 3 decimators and would love to use them.

AV 13/12/11, 5++, Daemonic Resilience, can ignore Weapon Destroyed and Immobilised on a 5+. Siege Claw is S8 AP2 CCW with Shred and Smash. Oh, it can also DS.

My new and improved Decimator longs for some TMC blood.

Don't forget it can burn the occupants of transports it wrecks. And it can get back up after it's wrecked.

If you take it part of a Daemon Codex, and mark it, It benefits from the "Daemon of" rules as well.

OVerall, it's a lot better than it was.

Is it really worth its points cost though? A helbrute costs half as much and has similar cc attacks. Sure it isn't as durable but for the points cost it doesn't seem like the decimator is a bargain. The dual butcher cannon setup is similar to a forge fiend but again more expensive. Although the FF is a HS slot so I guess you could go for 3 of each for a hail of S8 shooting.

Well, you don't want the Decimator for a pure shooty platform. You have better options for that. You generally either want it for wrecking Transports and flaming the insides or wrecking stuff in cc. Take the Soulburner for firing while you move up the field and then get in CC with something.

The Decimator is more than double the cost of a Helbrute, but it is significantly better. It has 5 Attacks base, AV 13 front, a 5++, Daemonic Resilience, and inbuilt Heavy flamers in it's close combat weapons. The biggest issue before was that MCs just made it, their plaything. Now it's got a decent shot.

Nope.

Sorry, but nope.

You're relying on one unit to win games?

You need to look deeper into this codex and look into the supplements as there are some other builds that will absolutely wreck face in 7th ed.

There are more options than Drake.

Dr Drake is dead he's locked in my basement.

Can't csm can summon a lot of demons. I though csm players would be super happy , about being being battle brothers with demons and having access divination and summoning now. And they save money too , they can play all those zombis as horrors now in 7th ed.

 sing your life wrote:

 Nuln_Oil wrote:
DA may be worse,

Ravenwing with the Dakka banner.

I'm just gonna have to call it that from now on if/when I field it.

Makumba wrote:
Can't csm can summon a lot of demons. I though csm players would be super happy , about being being battle brothers with demons and having access divination and summoning now. And they save money too , they can play all those zombis as horrors now in 7th ed.

I think many CSM players would be far more happy about CSM being a solid Codex on its own. Allying Daemons is fluffy, but not all of us are fine with having to use another Codex to drag the CSM to a reasonable level.

Makumba wrote:
Can't csm can summon a lot of demons. I though csm players would be super happy , about being being battle brothers with demons and having access divination and summoning now. And they save money too , they can play all those zombis as horrors now in 7th ed.

We do not have access to divination outside of the crimson slaughter relic. As far as summoning demons, I don't think this will really be a thing for CSM simply because chaos sorcerers will perils themselves to death so quickly it will neuter the army. With the way perils works for demonology it seems like the only people that can actually use it are demons, and possibly eldar since they can upgrade to ignore perils. I would have assumed that CSM could use malefic without the increased perils and not had access to santic but there seems to be a push to make chaos sorcs and SM librarians more and more alike now for some unfathomable reason.

I seem to recall much grumbling and grousing that CSM did not regain the ability to summon daemons with their last codex....now they have it back, and there has been virtually no rejoicing, just more grumbling and grousing.

Yup. Just like the grumble for no FAQs, and now Grumble FAQS ruined everything!

Its all that Chaos Energy.

I'm just waiting to see if they release one for Crimson Slaughter and their Beasts in a Transport conundrum.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I seem to recall much grumbling and grousing that CSM did not regain the ability to summon daemons with their last codex....now they have it back, and there has been virtually no rejoicing, just more grumbling and grousing.

Because they don't have a carve-out in the Malefic tree that daemons do, which sucks considering i expected CSM to summon daemons too. The best way for pure CSM is Sorceror with PotV in the CS (or WBs if you get what i mean) supplement.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I seem to recall much grumbling and grousing that CSM did not regain the ability to summon daemons with their last codex....now they have it back, and there has been virtually no rejoicing, just more grumbling and grousing.

It's probably because yeah sure CSM can summon it but they are just as bad as summoning daemons as everybody does with the same massive risk of perils. At that point, why really bother?

 Sasori wrote:

JubbJubbz wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
It's really a mixed bag.The Decimator and Chaos Contemptor got way better, to the Point I would seriously consider using them.

I should look more into the updated rules. I have 3 decimators and would love to use them.

AV 13/12/11, 5++, Daemonic Resilience, can ignore Weapon Destroyed and Immobilised on a 5+. Siege Claw is S8 AP2 CCW with Shred and Smash. Oh, it can also DS.

My new and improved Decimator longs for some TMC blood.

Don't forget it can burn the occupants of transports it wrecks. And it can get back up after it's wrecked.

If you take it part of a Daemon Codex, and mark it, It benefits from the "Daemon of" rules as well.

OVerall, it's a lot better than it was.

Is it really worth its points cost though? A helbrute costs half as much and has similar cc attacks. Sure it isn't as durable but for the points cost it doesn't seem like the decimator is a bargain. The dual butcher cannon setup is similar to a forge fiend but again more expensive. Although the FF is a HS slot so I guess you could go for 3 of each for a hail of S8 shooting.

Well, you don't want the Decimator for a pure shooty platform. You have better options for that. You generally either want it for wrecking Transports and flaming the insides or wrecking stuff in cc. Take the Soulburner for firing while you move up the field and then get in CC with something.

The Decimator is more than double the cost of a Helbrute, but it is significantly better. It has 5 Attacks base, AV 13 front, a 5++, Daemonic Resilience, and inbuilt Heavy flamers in it's close combat weapons. The biggest issue before was that MCs just made it, their plaything. Now it's got a decent shot.

Also don't forget "Unholy Vigour" - if it's wrecked it can stand back up on a roll of 6 with D3 HPs as well....give it Mark of Nurgle and it gain IWND on top of that. Expensive as heck, but will sure as heck last longer than a Defiler or other AV12 walkers we have.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I seem to recall much grumbling and grousing that CSM did not regain the ability to summon daemons with their last codex....now they have it back, and there has been virtually no rejoicing, just more grumbling and grousing.

I really don't think it will work when sorcs will peril on any doubles. On two dice thats a 1 in 6 chance, on three dice (the minimum to summon) its a 4 in 9 chance! Keep in mind there's only a 1 in 8 chance for a WC3 power to succeed with 3 dice. Anyone who perils on any doubles is all but garunteed to, if they throw more than 3 dice. I don't see any faction besides demons using summoning unless they have some way of mitigating perils.

So in essence, Im grumbly because we didn't get it back, its just another unusable option.

"Heldrake can roast tac marines"

Meanwhile on any space marine page:

"Yes, now we have literally no reason to take tactical marines in 7th"

I keep hearing (both in this thread and in other forums) that CSM are "ok" because walkers got better and we have a lot of those. Having not had a chance to see the new rules yet, can anyone summarize why that might be the case? What did they do to make walkers better this edition? Really curious because while they are often sub-par, the walkers are one of the few parts of the new CSM book that I actually like.

Tycho wrote:
I keep hearing (both in this thread and in other forums) that CSM are "ok" because walkers got better and we have a lot of those. Having not had a chance to see the new rules yet, can anyone summarize why that might be the case? What did they do to make walkers better this edition? Really curious because while they are often sub-par, the walkers are one of the few parts of the new CSM book that I actually like.

Two things. One, penning can only be done with a 7+. Two, MC can only smash 1 armourbane meaning that they will often fail. Those are the two buffs. That said, the Defiler is still likely too schizo, the helbrute is still too random, and it just makes people want to glance even more. Just means they won't happen to pin and suddenly explode your vehicle.

Tycho wrote:
I keep hearing (both in this thread and in other forums) that CSM are "ok" because walkers got better and we have a lot of those. Having not had a chance to see the new rules yet, can anyone summarize why that might be the case? What did they do to make walkers better this edition? Really curious because while they are often sub-par, the walkers are one of the few parts of the new CSM book that I actually like.

The thought is that without multiple smash attacks, MC's have a hard time dealing with walkers. That in addition to the changed vehicle table will indeed make them more durable than before. Don't expect too much though, they are still av12 and will die to getting shot to 0HP just the same. I think they also picked up HoW.

JubbJubbz wrote:

I really don't think it will work when sorcs will peril on any doubles. On two dice thats a 1 in 6 chance, on three dice (the minimum to summon) its a 4 in 9 chance! Keep in mind there's only a 1 in 8 chance for a WC3 power to succeed with 3 dice. Anyone who perils on any doubles is all but garunteed to, if they throw more than 3 dice. I don't see any faction besides demons using summoning unless they have some way of mitigating perils.

Yes, and this is really unfortunate. A Chaos Sorcerer summoning Daemons would have been fluffy and fun, but it just doesn't work. He might be able to cast one or maybe two summons before he has perilled himself to death.

 StarTrotter wrote:

Tycho wrote:
I keep hearing (both in this thread and in other forums) that CSM are "ok" because walkers got better and we have a lot of those. Having not had a chance to see the new rules yet, can anyone summarize why that might be the case? What did they do to make walkers better this edition? Really curious because while they are often sub-par, the walkers are one of the few parts of the new CSM book that I actually like.

Two things. One, penning can only be done with a 7+. Two, MC can only smash 1 armourbane meaning that they will often fail. Those are the two buffs. That said, the Defiler is still likely too schizo, the helbrute is still too random, and it just makes people want to glance even more. Just means they won't happen to pin and suddenly explode your vehicle.

Defilers are daemons so they get a buff if you can cast malefic Cursed Earth. A 4++ isn't bad.
That coupled with the Grimoir can buff you up to a 2++.
THat can be serious problems for your foe if they are already struggling with penning weapons

I always felt 6th allowed us CSM access to Daemons via Allies and still do. Now we can combine forces and be warp charge batteries for each other? Alrighty...

One thing I think CSM benefited from is the new rules for Unbound list composition. Now CSM players can far more accurately portray their favorite Traitor Legion on the table. It's not perfect. Alpha Legion is still out of luck and were still screwed over with Champ of Chaos and mandatory cult powers for marked sorcerors. On the other hand, we have all of the FW options now, particularly Dreadclaws, that will open up some more tactical avenues for us.

I just find it funny that a Chaos Sorcerer with a MoT is just as likely to summon Pink Horrors as an Ork Weirdboy or a loyalist psyker.

 Crimson wrote:

JubbJubbz wrote:

I really don't think it will work when sorcs will peril on any doubles. On two dice thats a 1 in 6 chance, on three dice (the minimum to summon) its a 4 in 9 chance! Keep in mind there's only a 1 in 8 chance for a WC3 power to succeed with 3 dice. Anyone who perils on any doubles is all but garunteed to, if they throw more than 3 dice. I don't see any faction besides demons using summoning unless they have some way of mitigating perils.

Yes, and this is really unfortunate. A Chaos Sorcerer summoning Daemons would have been fluffy and fun, but it just doesn't work. He might be able to cast one or maybe two summons before he has perilled himself to death.

Crimson Slaughter Supplement, Prophet of the Voices artefact. Add a Spell Familiar on top.

Of course you can take only one per army, but still.

Daemons and the new rules for all units scoring and troops getting a huge buff really helped out Nurglings.

Infiltrating troops with 4W, a +2 bonus to cover saves (+3 if all shooting is being done from within 8") and the objective secured rule could make them a real pain for some armies to deal with.

Objective secured also helps out black legion chosen in a big way.

Also. CSM have no dedicated infiltrators and no way to DS troops. we get that now with as before with daemons. Take daemons. Its a no brainer.

Did they improve anything like the Forgefiend/Maulerfield or actually make CSM squads viable? It always felt odd that you were penalized for wanting regular CSM versus Plague Marines and Cultists whether or not you wanted Nurgle, and the Forge/Maulerfiend are some of the coolest looking models I've seen.

Seems like all they really did to improve Chaos was to improve Daemons, because we all know that Chaos = Daemons only

 Warmaster Phthisis wrote:
One thing I think CSM benefited from is the new rules for Unbound list composition. Now CSM players can far more accurately portray their favorite Traitor Legion on the table. It's not perfect. Alpha Legion is still out of luck and were still screwed over with Champ of Chaos and mandatory cult powers for marked sorcerors. On the other hand, we have all of the FW options now, particularly Dreadclaws, that will open up some more tactical avenues for us.

Champ of Chaos isn't nearly as bad under the new rules since overkill will bleed onto the squad. Its not longer benefits the defender to toss a chump into a challenge. Its cool to have more "legal" freedom to do things like legions, but they'll suffer for not having Objective Secured.

on page 174 the torrent is still 12 inchs out and 45 degrees in either direction

 SarisKhan wrote:

Crimson Slaughter Supplement, Prophet of the Voices artefact. Add a Spell Familiar on top.

Of course you can take only one per army, but still.

That'll avoid the perils problem, but now he's either going at it solo or you have to buy a unit of possessed for him to hide in. That's pretty restrictive on how you can use him. You're either sticking him in an expensive assault unit, or trying to hide him somewhere to cast summons, likely out of range/sight to do anything else, and hope your opponent has nothing that can hit your lone 2W marine.

 SarisKhan wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
It's really a mixed bag.The Decimator and Chaos Contemptor got way better, to the Point I would seriously consider using them.

I should look more into the updated rules. I have 3 decimators and would love to use them.

AV 13/12/11, 5++, Daemonic Resilience, can ignore Weapon Destroyed and Immobilised on a 5+. Siege Claw is S8 AP2 CCW with Shred and Smash. Oh, it can also DS.

My new and improved Decimator longs for some TMC blood.

Where are you seeing that it can deepstrike, ooc?

Looking at its rules, the only place where I see any mention of DS is that when it gets back up from being wrecked it counts as having successfully deepstriked for the purposes of moving, shooting assaulting etc.

I'd definitely take them in a bitchin' Iron Warriors list with maxed out maulerfiends, but if they can't deepstrike I probably wouldn't. 6'' move on a BS3 platform puts them on the shelf next to my Talos engines.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Where are you seeing that it can deepstrike, ooc?

Looking at its rules, the only place where I see any mention of DS is that when it gets back up from being wrecked it counts as having successfully deepstriked for the purposes of moving, shooting assaulting etc.

I'd definitely take them in a bitchin' Iron Warriors list with maxed out maulerfiends, but if they can't deepstrike I probably wouldn't. 6'' move on a BS3 platform puts them on the shelf next to my Talos engines.

IA Apocalypse, page 63 (Chaos). The Decimator's Special Rules are: Daemon, Unholy Vigour, Deep Strike, Daemonic Resilience.

 StarTrotter wrote:

Tycho wrote:
I keep hearing (both in this thread and in other forums) that CSM are "ok" because walkers got better and we have a lot of those. Having not had a chance to see the new rules yet, can anyone summarize why that might be the case? What did they do to make walkers better this edition? Really curious because while they are often sub-par, the walkers are one of the few parts of the new CSM book that I actually like.

Two things. One, penning can only be done with a 7+. Two, MC can only smash 1 armourbane meaning that they will often fail. Those are the two buffs. That said, the Defiler is still likely too schizo, the helbrute is still too random, and it just makes people want to glance even more. Just means they won't happen to pin and suddenly explode your vehicle.

Pen's weren't the leading cause before.

It's the fact they get glanced down easily enough that does it.

I know a guy who plays Renegades and Heretics. They still use 5th edition rules pretty much. It could be muuuuch worse for chaos man, much much worse.

Why is it that the Decimator which specifically got better? You must be talking about something else than the Vehicle Damage chart, right?

Chaospling wrote:
Why is it that the Decimator which specifically got better? You must be talking about something else than the Vehicle Damage chart, right?

Walkers in general have got slightly better. The discussion has focussed on the Decimator because of me, I'm afraid.

1. Explodes! only on a 7+ Penetration result.
2. Gained HoW.
3. MCs can now make only one S10 Smash attack.

Apart for the minor tweaks Walkers have now an actual chance to win in CC with an MC.

 SarisKhan wrote:
IA Apocalypse, page 63 (Chaos). The Decimator's Special Rules are: Daemon, Unholy Vigour, Deep Strike, Daemonic Resilience.

Ah, I don't have the IA book.

Are these rules no longer current for it, then?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

Tycho wrote:
I keep hearing (both in this thread and in other forums) that CSM are "ok" because walkers got better and we have a lot of those. Having not had a chance to see the new rules yet, can anyone summarize why that might be the case? What did they do to make walkers better this edition? Really curious because while they are often sub-par, the walkers are one of the few parts of the new CSM book that I actually like.

Two things. One, penning can only be done with a 7+. Two, MC can only smash 1 armourbane meaning that they will often fail. Those are the two buffs. That said, the Defiler is still likely too schizo, the helbrute is still too random, and it just makes people want to glance even more. Just means they won't happen to pin and suddenly explode your vehicle.

Pen's weren't the leading cause before.

It's the fact they get glanced down easily enough that does it.

Oh honestly I was about to say that but had to dash off. As mentioned, the biggest problem is glancing. It's AV12 usually meaning anything 6+ Str is capable of glancing it. Now it's not too bad at 6 but then you get to 7 where every wound has a 1/3rd chance of glancing. It only got worse from there. Overall, I'm still somewhat cynical that they will be that common in the game. Not absolute madness to play but they just don't have soul grinder front armour.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:
IA Apocalypse, page 63 (Chaos). The Decimator's Special Rules are: Daemon, Unholy Vigour, Deep Strike, Daemonic Resilience.

Ah, I don't have the IA book.

Are these rules no longer current for it, then?

The IA Apoc rules are newer. Basically, it's 10 pts. more expensive, gains DS and has slightly different Options.

 SarisKhan wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
Why is it that the Decimator which specifically got better? You must be talking about something else than the Vehicle Damage chart, right?

Walkers in general have got slightly better. The discussion has focussed on the Decimator because of me, I'm afraid.

1. Explodes! only on a 7+ Penetration result.
2. Gained HoW.
3. MCs can now make only one S10 Smash attack.

Apart for the minor tweaks Walkers have now an actual chance to win in CC with an MC.

1. Ok that's good for the Decimator, but every vehicle got better by this, so I can't see why this change should make Decimators by themselves better, only vehicles in general.

2. Yes that's really nice - as long as no one else mentions this I will take the credit of this change as I wrote GW several times about how odd it seemed that the nimble Wraith Lord had HoW but Killa Kans and Dreadnoughts didn't.

3. Well as opposed to Helbrutes this also nerfed the Decimator as it only has S8 and Smash... Now this cool looking war machine has even bigger problems when facing a smaller Dreadnought: strikes after the Dreadnought with worse WS and with only 1 attack... This is why I can't make myself buy a Decimator.... It's just too ridiculous that it's so inferior to a Helbrute or Dreadnought in close combat.

 Vash108 wrote:
I just want new marine scuplts with more options on the sprue.

I REALLY hope you are talking about Chaos marine sculpts and not normal marine ones......as they just got a fantastic box with tons of options and new sculpts in September.

Makumba wrote:
Can't csm can summon a lot of demons. I though csm players would be super happy , about being being battle brothers with demons and having access divination and summoning now. And they save money too , they can play all those zombis as horrors now in 7th ed.

they cant summon daemons noticably better than ultramarines, because GW is forging a narative.

The Daemon Prince could do it. He could do it doubly well if you give him a spell familiar. But he is fragile enough as it is without rolling on biomancy.

Spell familiar is really powerful for 15 points , big boost for CSM sorcerers

Chaospling wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
Why is it that the Decimator which specifically got better? You must be talking about something else than the Vehicle Damage chart, right?

Walkers in general have got slightly better. The discussion has focussed on the Decimator because of me, I'm afraid.

1. Explodes! only on a 7+ Penetration result.
2. Gained HoW.
3. MCs can now make only one S10 Smash attack.

Apart for the minor tweaks Walkers have now an actual chance to win in CC with an MC.

1. Ok that's good for the Decimator, but every vehicle got better by this, so I can't see why this change should make Decimators by themselves better, only vehicles in general.

2. Yes that's really nice - as long as no one else mentions this I will take the credit of this change as I wrote GW several times about how odd it seemed that the nimble Wraith Lord had HoW but Killa Kans and Dreadnoughts didn't.

3. Well as opposed to Helbrutes this also nerfed the Decimator as it only has S8 and Smash... Now this cool looking war machine has even bigger problems when facing a smaller Dreadnought: strikes after the Dreadnought with worse WS and with only 1 attack... This is why I can't make myself buy a Decimator.... It's just too ridiculous that it's so inferior to a Helbrute or Dreadnought in close combat.

I've been referring to all Walkers in that post, dude.

Anyway, regarding the Dreadnought vs. Decimator: it seems the Decimator simply isn't designed to win such fights. Exactly like my LC Chaos Termies with MoS die horribly to Deathwing Terminators with TH/SS, but slaughter anything 3+ (including MCs), the Decimator might die to a Dreadnought, but is arguably better at killing MCs and normal Vehicles.

 Nuln_Oil wrote:
So the heldrake was directly and indirectly nerfed. The indirect nerf came with the changes to vector strike. The direct nerf came from the FAQ limiting the ranged weapons to hullmounted. While I was never against nerfing the heldrake (or increasing its point cost), I am upset it was done without buffing anything. There is somewhat of a general consensus that the best units in the CSM codex are the heldrake and obliterators. Everything else is kind of wimpy or grossly overcosted (175 points for a forgefiend, really? Got Defiler? HQs?). Prior to the new edition CSM codex was hard enough to to field, with players either choosing repetitive lists or choosing to take an almost certain to be weak list. Now it just seems worse.

Am I wrong here? There are some benefits to the new edition, but for each of them I see other armies benefiting in the same or better ways. I honestly think CSM is one of the worst, if not the worst, codexes in the game. Sisters and DA may be worse, but I don't know. What do you all think?

Look brah, I play tyranids on the side, and I can tell you they got nerfed. But I hate when people complain about the CSM codex. You guys a lot of stuff over regular marines. More options on troops, and your elites are amazing. Thousand Sons, Plague Marines, Noise Marines with ignores cover weapons? Plus, I made a point to tell my girlfriend this (she plays a Nurgle themed army), My Tesla Destructors can explode your Rhinos anymore, so your vehicles are slightly better. Plus, a Baleflamer can still hit the INSIDE of an open-topped transport now. Fun Times.

Elites amazing!? Ha ha ha! The Helbrute sucks, our terminators are better only if you termicide, mutilators are horrid, KSons are some of the worst units in the game, Berzerkers are very bad, and Noise Marines and Plague Marines aren't really worth it as elites. Seriously our elites suck. Noise Marines are good troops but even then, you see cultists not Plague Marines. Noise Marines are even more situational. You forgot to mention they get pricey and have drawbacks. CSM suck so everybody grabs cultists which are really just crops guardsman to squat objectives. And the baleflamer so what? It also got a (deserved) nerf. Sure it can flame inside open topped vehicles but what really has open topped? A super fragile DE force and orks. The flames is not efficient against either as it's built to kill marines. Look at competitive and you'll see what CSM are worth. Nothing more than a way for daemons to get some cheap scoreless, a drake, and another DP. Heck, Abaddon got nefed to become a spawn or prince again.

We have a few good picks. Cultists, unmarked sorcerers maybe, heldrake (maybe), spawn, noise marines, plague marines, nurgle bikers, Khorne juggernaut, nurgle biker lord, obliterators, and a heavily kitted prince. The rest is mediocre to bad and even of these good picks few are good enough for competitive.

Also more options on troops means nothing if many are horrid. Some praise the marks yet SM gets tons of rules for free and one of the top 2 priciest only gives a 6++ save what a joke.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Elites amazing!? Ha ha ha! The Helbrute sucks, our terminators are better only if you termicide, mutilators are horrid, KSons are some of the worst units in the game, Berzerkers are very bad, and Noise Marines and Plague Marines aren't really worth it as elites. Seriously our elites suck. Noise Marines are good troops but even then, you see cultists not Plague Marines. Noise Marines are even more situational. You forgot to mention they get pricey and have drawbacks. CSM suck so everybody grabs cultists which are really just crops guardsman to squat objectives. And the baleflamer so what? It also got a (deserved) nerf. Sure it can flame inside open topped vehicles but what really has open topped? A super fragile DE force and orks. The flames is not efficient against either as it's built to kill marines. Look at competitive and you'll see what CSM are worth. Nothing more than a way for daemons to get some cheap scoreless, a drake, and another DP. Heck, Abaddon got nefed to become a spawn or prince again.

We have a few good picks. Cultists, unmarked sorcerers maybe, heldrake (maybe), spawn, noise marines, plague marines, nurgle bikers, Khorne juggernaut, nurgle biker lord, obliterators, and a heavily kitted prince. The rest is mediocre to bad and even of these good picks few are good enough for competitive.

Also more options on troops means nothing if many are horrid. Some praise the marks yet SM gets tons of rules for free and one of the top 2 priciest only gives a 6++ save what a joke.

Well, if I felt that way about a codex, I'd play a different army then. My girlfriend plays stuff that she thinks is fun, and has done pretty well with it. And if you're ONLY looking for a straight competitive army, well then why even play the game. Go buy Tau or Eldar if you wanna be uber competitive.

krodarklorr wrote:
Well, if I felt that way about a codex, I'd play a different army then. My girlfriend plays stuff that she thinks is fun, and has done pretty well with it. And if you're ONLY looking for a straight competitive army, well then why even play the game. Go buy Tau or Eldar if you wanna be uber competitive.

There is a *huge* gap between "competitive" and "functional". The fact that you are immediately penalized in a Chaos army for choosing to take regular CSMs over Plague Marines, or Khorne Berzerkers or Thousand Sons, for example, has nothing to do with competitive play and everything to do with many units being extremely lackluster for no apparent reason.

Yah, nobody likes to see large amounts of head-scratchingly bad/overpriced units/upgrades in their codex. It makes all that apparent variety melt away.

When you compare Chaos Marines to regular marines, you cry. Yes they might be marines, but they will run away and do not have ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics so on so forth. Yes we have marks and icons. But icons can be sniped and then the whole squad loses their bonus.

krodarklorr wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Elites amazing!? Ha ha ha! The Helbrute sucks, our terminators are better only if you termicide, mutilators are horrid, KSons are some of the worst units in the game, Berzerkers are very bad, and Noise Marines and Plague Marines aren't really worth it as elites. Seriously our elites suck. Noise Marines are good troops but even then, you see cultists not Plague Marines. Noise Marines are even more situational. You forgot to mention they get pricey and have drawbacks. CSM suck so everybody grabs cultists which are really just crops guardsman to squat objectives. And the baleflamer so what? It also got a (deserved) nerf. Sure it can flame inside open topped vehicles but what really has open topped? A super fragile DE force and orks. The flames is not efficient against either as it's built to kill marines. Look at competitive and you'll see what CSM are worth. Nothing more than a way for daemons to get some cheap scoreless, a drake, and another DP. Heck, Abaddon got nefed to become a spawn or prince again.

We have a few good picks. Cultists, unmarked sorcerers maybe, heldrake (maybe), spawn, noise marines, plague marines, nurgle bikers, Khorne juggernaut, nurgle biker lord, obliterators, and a heavily kitted prince. The rest is mediocre to bad and even of these good picks few are good enough for competitive.

Also more options on troops means nothing if many are horrid. Some praise the marks yet SM gets tons of rules for free and one of the top 2 priciest only gives a 6++ save what a joke.

Well, if I felt that way about a codex, I'd play a different army then. My girlfriend plays stuff that she thinks is fun, and has done pretty well with it. And if you're ONLY looking for a straight competitive army, well then why even play the game. Go buy Tau or Eldar if you wanna be uber competitive.

Why do I play CSM? Because when I started nobody in my group played Chaos. I looked at them, read their lore, and ended up liking them particularly Tzeentch with Thousand Sons being what drew me in the most. I'm not looking for a straight competitive army. I play primarily CSM, Chaos Daemons, and IG. Now you might say hey! But the last two are top tier. Indeed they might be but my IG lists are a regiment of tanks and another that is a Lost and the Damned army with random weapons such as grenade launchers. My CD? I've never once played Flying Circus or Screamerstar and I'll never touch Nurgle because it's the god my favorite chaos god hates the most. I play this game to have fun with friends and for the fluff. That is paramount. That said, I like to have good options. I don't like to feel like by fielding my army I'm basically saying yeah win I'm just here to roll dice move my models and make pew pew noises. I want some challenge, I want to "Forge a Narrative". But this game makes it aggrivating. When I look in my codex and realize most of the choices are horrid and I am heavily impairing me to select KSons it frustrates me. I try to play them only for my enemy to plop down a Riptide/Pathfinder/buffmander list and I watch as I just have to sit and get stomped. I want this army to play. I want to see this game be balanced so every choice is worth it so my friends and myself can be truly free rather than having to police one another so that we never bring something OP despite the OP units sometimes actually being cool and appealing to us from a fluff and/or narrative standpoint.

And the biggest insult? Compare CSM troop marines to SM troop marines. It's a joke, an absolutely painful joke of a comparison. Sure you can pay for marks but then you either cost more or drastically more than the SM unit that for 1 point gets combat tactics, ANTSKNF, and a bountiful plethora of free special rules. It's aggrivating. I don't want to stomp people nor do I want to be stomped. The CSM Codex is Nurgle and Heldrake. If you are playing Nurgle, well lucky you have the one somewhat decent pick. Want to play Khorne or Tzeentch? Have fun sucking so much even BA after their nerfs can pity you!

It's kind of this way because once upon a time, Tzeentch/Khorne armies ruled the lands and Chaos was feared more than Tau are.

I still remember my ancient Chaos Sorcerer Lord army and his honor guard of 6 more sorcerers. Every one of them had Doombolt.

Kyutaru wrote:
It's kind of this way because once upon a time, Tzeentch/Khorne armies ruled the lands and Chaos was feared more than Tau are.

I still remember my ancient Chaos Sorcerer Lord army and his honor guard of 6 more sorcerers. Every one of them had Doombolt.

Ha ha ha huh? Please. Tzeentch and Khorne haven't really ruled. 6th edition the best choices were undivided or nurgle, 5th edition was nurgle with Slaanesh's lash being terrifying, 4th edition was Nurgle, 3rd edition was Slaanesh with undivided (Iron Warriors), so unless we are going back to 2nd or even 1st edition that makes no sense. KSons have never been good in all their existence and were one of the worst legions in 3.5.... Seriously, bar Chaos Daemons, I can't really think of much OP. The last time people truly deserved Chaos was their 3.5 edition codex where Iron Warriors and a specific Slaaneshi build (this was far worse than Warriors) broke it all so I don't really know what you are talking about.

Also, it's kind of this way because once upon a time something is good? So why aren't Eldar absolutely terrible. Eldar have consistently gotten broken good codices on release, Tau as well humerously (just didn't got updated in too long). That and Oblits, Plague Marines, and DP should all suck since they had basically been the good for chaos since 4th edition