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 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I seem to recall much grumbling and grousing that CSM did not regain the ability to summon daemons with their last codex....now they have it back, and there has been virtually no rejoicing, just more grumbling and grousing.

I really don't think it will work when sorcs will peril on any doubles. On two dice thats a 1 in 6 chance, on three dice (the minimum to summon) its a 4 in 9 chance! Keep in mind there's only a 1 in 8 chance for a WC3 power to succeed with 3 dice. Anyone who perils on any doubles is all but garunteed to, if they throw more than 3 dice. I don't see any faction besides demons using summoning unless they have some way of mitigating perils.

So in essence, Im grumbly because we didn't get it back, its just another unusable option.

"Heldrake can roast tac marines"

Meanwhile on any space marine page:

"Yes, now we have literally no reason to take tactical marines in 7th"

I keep hearing (both in this thread and in other forums) that CSM are "ok" because walkers got better and we have a lot of those. Having not had a chance to see the new rules yet, can anyone summarize why that might be the case? What did they do to make walkers better this edition? Really curious because while they are often sub-par, the walkers are one of the few parts of the new CSM book that I actually like.

Tycho wrote:
I keep hearing (both in this thread and in other forums) that CSM are "ok" because walkers got better and we have a lot of those. Having not had a chance to see the new rules yet, can anyone summarize why that might be the case? What did they do to make walkers better this edition? Really curious because while they are often sub-par, the walkers are one of the few parts of the new CSM book that I actually like.

Two things. One, penning can only be done with a 7+. Two, MC can only smash 1 armourbane meaning that they will often fail. Those are the two buffs. That said, the Defiler is still likely too schizo, the helbrute is still too random, and it just makes people want to glance even more. Just means they won't happen to pin and suddenly explode your vehicle.

Tycho wrote:
I keep hearing (both in this thread and in other forums) that CSM are "ok" because walkers got better and we have a lot of those. Having not had a chance to see the new rules yet, can anyone summarize why that might be the case? What did they do to make walkers better this edition? Really curious because while they are often sub-par, the walkers are one of the few parts of the new CSM book that I actually like.

The thought is that without multiple smash attacks, MC's have a hard time dealing with walkers. That in addition to the changed vehicle table will indeed make them more durable than before. Don't expect too much though, they are still av12 and will die to getting shot to 0HP just the same. I think they also picked up HoW.

JubbJubbz wrote:

I really don't think it will work when sorcs will peril on any doubles. On two dice thats a 1 in 6 chance, on three dice (the minimum to summon) its a 4 in 9 chance! Keep in mind there's only a 1 in 8 chance for a WC3 power to succeed with 3 dice. Anyone who perils on any doubles is all but garunteed to, if they throw more than 3 dice. I don't see any faction besides demons using summoning unless they have some way of mitigating perils.

Yes, and this is really unfortunate. A Chaos Sorcerer summoning Daemons would have been fluffy and fun, but it just doesn't work. He might be able to cast one or maybe two summons before he has perilled himself to death.

 StarTrotter wrote:

Tycho wrote:
I keep hearing (both in this thread and in other forums) that CSM are "ok" because walkers got better and we have a lot of those. Having not had a chance to see the new rules yet, can anyone summarize why that might be the case? What did they do to make walkers better this edition? Really curious because while they are often sub-par, the walkers are one of the few parts of the new CSM book that I actually like.

Two things. One, penning can only be done with a 7+. Two, MC can only smash 1 armourbane meaning that they will often fail. Those are the two buffs. That said, the Defiler is still likely too schizo, the helbrute is still too random, and it just makes people want to glance even more. Just means they won't happen to pin and suddenly explode your vehicle.

Defilers are daemons so they get a buff if you can cast malefic Cursed Earth. A 4++ isn't bad.
That coupled with the Grimoir can buff you up to a 2++.
THat can be serious problems for your foe if they are already struggling with penning weapons

I always felt 6th allowed us CSM access to Daemons via Allies and still do. Now we can combine forces and be warp charge batteries for each other? Alrighty...

One thing I think CSM benefited from is the new rules for Unbound list composition. Now CSM players can far more accurately portray their favorite Traitor Legion on the table. It's not perfect. Alpha Legion is still out of luck and were still screwed over with Champ of Chaos and mandatory cult powers for marked sorcerors. On the other hand, we have all of the FW options now, particularly Dreadclaws, that will open up some more tactical avenues for us.

I just find it funny that a Chaos Sorcerer with a MoT is just as likely to summon Pink Horrors as an Ork Weirdboy or a loyalist psyker.

 Crimson wrote:

JubbJubbz wrote:

I really don't think it will work when sorcs will peril on any doubles. On two dice thats a 1 in 6 chance, on three dice (the minimum to summon) its a 4 in 9 chance! Keep in mind there's only a 1 in 8 chance for a WC3 power to succeed with 3 dice. Anyone who perils on any doubles is all but garunteed to, if they throw more than 3 dice. I don't see any faction besides demons using summoning unless they have some way of mitigating perils.

Yes, and this is really unfortunate. A Chaos Sorcerer summoning Daemons would have been fluffy and fun, but it just doesn't work. He might be able to cast one or maybe two summons before he has perilled himself to death.

Crimson Slaughter Supplement, Prophet of the Voices artefact. Add a Spell Familiar on top.

Of course you can take only one per army, but still.

Daemons and the new rules for all units scoring and troops getting a huge buff really helped out Nurglings.

Infiltrating troops with 4W, a +2 bonus to cover saves (+3 if all shooting is being done from within 8") and the objective secured rule could make them a real pain for some armies to deal with.

Objective secured also helps out black legion chosen in a big way.

Also. CSM have no dedicated infiltrators and no way to DS troops. we get that now with as before with daemons. Take daemons. Its a no brainer.

Did they improve anything like the Forgefiend/Maulerfield or actually make CSM squads viable? It always felt odd that you were penalized for wanting regular CSM versus Plague Marines and Cultists whether or not you wanted Nurgle, and the Forge/Maulerfiend are some of the coolest looking models I've seen.

Seems like all they really did to improve Chaos was to improve Daemons, because we all know that Chaos = Daemons only

 Warmaster Phthisis wrote:
One thing I think CSM benefited from is the new rules for Unbound list composition. Now CSM players can far more accurately portray their favorite Traitor Legion on the table. It's not perfect. Alpha Legion is still out of luck and were still screwed over with Champ of Chaos and mandatory cult powers for marked sorcerors. On the other hand, we have all of the FW options now, particularly Dreadclaws, that will open up some more tactical avenues for us.

Champ of Chaos isn't nearly as bad under the new rules since overkill will bleed onto the squad. Its not longer benefits the defender to toss a chump into a challenge. Its cool to have more "legal" freedom to do things like legions, but they'll suffer for not having Objective Secured.

on page 174 the torrent is still 12 inchs out and 45 degrees in either direction

 SarisKhan wrote:

Crimson Slaughter Supplement, Prophet of the Voices artefact. Add a Spell Familiar on top.

Of course you can take only one per army, but still.

That'll avoid the perils problem, but now he's either going at it solo or you have to buy a unit of possessed for him to hide in. That's pretty restrictive on how you can use him. You're either sticking him in an expensive assault unit, or trying to hide him somewhere to cast summons, likely out of range/sight to do anything else, and hope your opponent has nothing that can hit your lone 2W marine.

 SarisKhan wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
It's really a mixed bag.The Decimator and Chaos Contemptor got way better, to the Point I would seriously consider using them.

I should look more into the updated rules. I have 3 decimators and would love to use them.

AV 13/12/11, 5++, Daemonic Resilience, can ignore Weapon Destroyed and Immobilised on a 5+. Siege Claw is S8 AP2 CCW with Shred and Smash. Oh, it can also DS.

My new and improved Decimator longs for some TMC blood.

Where are you seeing that it can deepstrike, ooc?

Looking at its rules, the only place where I see any mention of DS is that when it gets back up from being wrecked it counts as having successfully deepstriked for the purposes of moving, shooting assaulting etc.

I'd definitely take them in a bitchin' Iron Warriors list with maxed out maulerfiends, but if they can't deepstrike I probably wouldn't. 6'' move on a BS3 platform puts them on the shelf next to my Talos engines.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Where are you seeing that it can deepstrike, ooc?

Looking at its rules, the only place where I see any mention of DS is that when it gets back up from being wrecked it counts as having successfully deepstriked for the purposes of moving, shooting assaulting etc.

I'd definitely take them in a bitchin' Iron Warriors list with maxed out maulerfiends, but if they can't deepstrike I probably wouldn't. 6'' move on a BS3 platform puts them on the shelf next to my Talos engines.

IA Apocalypse, page 63 (Chaos). The Decimator's Special Rules are: Daemon, Unholy Vigour, Deep Strike, Daemonic Resilience.

 StarTrotter wrote:

Tycho wrote:
I keep hearing (both in this thread and in other forums) that CSM are "ok" because walkers got better and we have a lot of those. Having not had a chance to see the new rules yet, can anyone summarize why that might be the case? What did they do to make walkers better this edition? Really curious because while they are often sub-par, the walkers are one of the few parts of the new CSM book that I actually like.

Two things. One, penning can only be done with a 7+. Two, MC can only smash 1 armourbane meaning that they will often fail. Those are the two buffs. That said, the Defiler is still likely too schizo, the helbrute is still too random, and it just makes people want to glance even more. Just means they won't happen to pin and suddenly explode your vehicle.

Pen's weren't the leading cause before.

It's the fact they get glanced down easily enough that does it.

I know a guy who plays Renegades and Heretics. They still use 5th edition rules pretty much. It could be muuuuch worse for chaos man, much much worse.

Why is it that the Decimator which specifically got better? You must be talking about something else than the Vehicle Damage chart, right?

Chaospling wrote:
Why is it that the Decimator which specifically got better? You must be talking about something else than the Vehicle Damage chart, right?

Walkers in general have got slightly better. The discussion has focussed on the Decimator because of me, I'm afraid.

1. Explodes! only on a 7+ Penetration result.
2. Gained HoW.
3. MCs can now make only one S10 Smash attack.

Apart for the minor tweaks Walkers have now an actual chance to win in CC with an MC.

 SarisKhan wrote:
IA Apocalypse, page 63 (Chaos). The Decimator's Special Rules are: Daemon, Unholy Vigour, Deep Strike, Daemonic Resilience.

Ah, I don't have the IA book.

Are these rules no longer current for it, then?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

Tycho wrote:
I keep hearing (both in this thread and in other forums) that CSM are "ok" because walkers got better and we have a lot of those. Having not had a chance to see the new rules yet, can anyone summarize why that might be the case? What did they do to make walkers better this edition? Really curious because while they are often sub-par, the walkers are one of the few parts of the new CSM book that I actually like.

Two things. One, penning can only be done with a 7+. Two, MC can only smash 1 armourbane meaning that they will often fail. Those are the two buffs. That said, the Defiler is still likely too schizo, the helbrute is still too random, and it just makes people want to glance even more. Just means they won't happen to pin and suddenly explode your vehicle.

Pen's weren't the leading cause before.

It's the fact they get glanced down easily enough that does it.

Oh honestly I was about to say that but had to dash off. As mentioned, the biggest problem is glancing. It's AV12 usually meaning anything 6+ Str is capable of glancing it. Now it's not too bad at 6 but then you get to 7 where every wound has a 1/3rd chance of glancing. It only got worse from there. Overall, I'm still somewhat cynical that they will be that common in the game. Not absolute madness to play but they just don't have soul grinder front armour.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:
IA Apocalypse, page 63 (Chaos). The Decimator's Special Rules are: Daemon, Unholy Vigour, Deep Strike, Daemonic Resilience.

Ah, I don't have the IA book.

Are these rules no longer current for it, then?

The IA Apoc rules are newer. Basically, it's 10 pts. more expensive, gains DS and has slightly different Options.

 SarisKhan wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
Why is it that the Decimator which specifically got better? You must be talking about something else than the Vehicle Damage chart, right?

Walkers in general have got slightly better. The discussion has focussed on the Decimator because of me, I'm afraid.

1. Explodes! only on a 7+ Penetration result.
2. Gained HoW.
3. MCs can now make only one S10 Smash attack.

Apart for the minor tweaks Walkers have now an actual chance to win in CC with an MC.

1. Ok that's good for the Decimator, but every vehicle got better by this, so I can't see why this change should make Decimators by themselves better, only vehicles in general.

2. Yes that's really nice - as long as no one else mentions this I will take the credit of this change as I wrote GW several times about how odd it seemed that the nimble Wraith Lord had HoW but Killa Kans and Dreadnoughts didn't.

3. Well as opposed to Helbrutes this also nerfed the Decimator as it only has S8 and Smash... Now this cool looking war machine has even bigger problems when facing a smaller Dreadnought: strikes after the Dreadnought with worse WS and with only 1 attack... This is why I can't make myself buy a Decimator.... It's just too ridiculous that it's so inferior to a Helbrute or Dreadnought in close combat.

 Vash108 wrote:
I just want new marine scuplts with more options on the sprue.

I REALLY hope you are talking about Chaos marine sculpts and not normal marine ones......as they just got a fantastic box with tons of options and new sculpts in September.

Makumba wrote:
Can't csm can summon a lot of demons. I though csm players would be super happy , about being being battle brothers with demons and having access divination and summoning now. And they save money too , they can play all those zombis as horrors now in 7th ed.

they cant summon daemons noticably better than ultramarines, because GW is forging a narative.

The Daemon Prince could do it. He could do it doubly well if you give him a spell familiar. But he is fragile enough as it is without rolling on biomancy.

Spell familiar is really powerful for 15 points , big boost for CSM sorcerers