Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Chaospling wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
Why is it that the Decimator which specifically got better? You must be talking about something else than the Vehicle Damage chart, right?

Walkers in general have got slightly better. The discussion has focussed on the Decimator because of me, I'm afraid.

1. Explodes! only on a 7+ Penetration result.
2. Gained HoW.
3. MCs can now make only one S10 Smash attack.

Apart for the minor tweaks Walkers have now an actual chance to win in CC with an MC.

1. Ok that's good for the Decimator, but every vehicle got better by this, so I can't see why this change should make Decimators by themselves better, only vehicles in general.

2. Yes that's really nice - as long as no one else mentions this I will take the credit of this change as I wrote GW several times about how odd it seemed that the nimble Wraith Lord had HoW but Killa Kans and Dreadnoughts didn't.

3. Well as opposed to Helbrutes this also nerfed the Decimator as it only has S8 and Smash... Now this cool looking war machine has even bigger problems when facing a smaller Dreadnought: strikes after the Dreadnought with worse WS and with only 1 attack... This is why I can't make myself buy a Decimator.... It's just too ridiculous that it's so inferior to a Helbrute or Dreadnought in close combat.

I've been referring to all Walkers in that post, dude.

Anyway, regarding the Dreadnought vs. Decimator: it seems the Decimator simply isn't designed to win such fights. Exactly like my LC Chaos Termies with MoS die horribly to Deathwing Terminators with TH/SS, but slaughter anything 3+ (including MCs), the Decimator might die to a Dreadnought, but is arguably better at killing MCs and normal Vehicles.

 Nuln_Oil wrote:
So the heldrake was directly and indirectly nerfed. The indirect nerf came with the changes to vector strike. The direct nerf came from the FAQ limiting the ranged weapons to hullmounted. While I was never against nerfing the heldrake (or increasing its point cost), I am upset it was done without buffing anything. There is somewhat of a general consensus that the best units in the CSM codex are the heldrake and obliterators. Everything else is kind of wimpy or grossly overcosted (175 points for a forgefiend, really? Got Defiler? HQs?). Prior to the new edition CSM codex was hard enough to to field, with players either choosing repetitive lists or choosing to take an almost certain to be weak list. Now it just seems worse.

Am I wrong here? There are some benefits to the new edition, but for each of them I see other armies benefiting in the same or better ways. I honestly think CSM is one of the worst, if not the worst, codexes in the game. Sisters and DA may be worse, but I don't know. What do you all think?

Look brah, I play tyranids on the side, and I can tell you they got nerfed. But I hate when people complain about the CSM codex. You guys a lot of stuff over regular marines. More options on troops, and your elites are amazing. Thousand Sons, Plague Marines, Noise Marines with ignores cover weapons? Plus, I made a point to tell my girlfriend this (she plays a Nurgle themed army), My Tesla Destructors can explode your Rhinos anymore, so your vehicles are slightly better. Plus, a Baleflamer can still hit the INSIDE of an open-topped transport now. Fun Times.

Elites amazing!? Ha ha ha! The Helbrute sucks, our terminators are better only if you termicide, mutilators are horrid, KSons are some of the worst units in the game, Berzerkers are very bad, and Noise Marines and Plague Marines aren't really worth it as elites. Seriously our elites suck. Noise Marines are good troops but even then, you see cultists not Plague Marines. Noise Marines are even more situational. You forgot to mention they get pricey and have drawbacks. CSM suck so everybody grabs cultists which are really just crops guardsman to squat objectives. And the baleflamer so what? It also got a (deserved) nerf. Sure it can flame inside open topped vehicles but what really has open topped? A super fragile DE force and orks. The flames is not efficient against either as it's built to kill marines. Look at competitive and you'll see what CSM are worth. Nothing more than a way for daemons to get some cheap scoreless, a drake, and another DP. Heck, Abaddon got nefed to become a spawn or prince again.

We have a few good picks. Cultists, unmarked sorcerers maybe, heldrake (maybe), spawn, noise marines, plague marines, nurgle bikers, Khorne juggernaut, nurgle biker lord, obliterators, and a heavily kitted prince. The rest is mediocre to bad and even of these good picks few are good enough for competitive.

Also more options on troops means nothing if many are horrid. Some praise the marks yet SM gets tons of rules for free and one of the top 2 priciest only gives a 6++ save what a joke.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Elites amazing!? Ha ha ha! The Helbrute sucks, our terminators are better only if you termicide, mutilators are horrid, KSons are some of the worst units in the game, Berzerkers are very bad, and Noise Marines and Plague Marines aren't really worth it as elites. Seriously our elites suck. Noise Marines are good troops but even then, you see cultists not Plague Marines. Noise Marines are even more situational. You forgot to mention they get pricey and have drawbacks. CSM suck so everybody grabs cultists which are really just crops guardsman to squat objectives. And the baleflamer so what? It also got a (deserved) nerf. Sure it can flame inside open topped vehicles but what really has open topped? A super fragile DE force and orks. The flames is not efficient against either as it's built to kill marines. Look at competitive and you'll see what CSM are worth. Nothing more than a way for daemons to get some cheap scoreless, a drake, and another DP. Heck, Abaddon got nefed to become a spawn or prince again.

We have a few good picks. Cultists, unmarked sorcerers maybe, heldrake (maybe), spawn, noise marines, plague marines, nurgle bikers, Khorne juggernaut, nurgle biker lord, obliterators, and a heavily kitted prince. The rest is mediocre to bad and even of these good picks few are good enough for competitive.

Also more options on troops means nothing if many are horrid. Some praise the marks yet SM gets tons of rules for free and one of the top 2 priciest only gives a 6++ save what a joke.

Well, if I felt that way about a codex, I'd play a different army then. My girlfriend plays stuff that she thinks is fun, and has done pretty well with it. And if you're ONLY looking for a straight competitive army, well then why even play the game. Go buy Tau or Eldar if you wanna be uber competitive.

krodarklorr wrote:
Well, if I felt that way about a codex, I'd play a different army then. My girlfriend plays stuff that she thinks is fun, and has done pretty well with it. And if you're ONLY looking for a straight competitive army, well then why even play the game. Go buy Tau or Eldar if you wanna be uber competitive.

There is a *huge* gap between "competitive" and "functional". The fact that you are immediately penalized in a Chaos army for choosing to take regular CSMs over Plague Marines, or Khorne Berzerkers or Thousand Sons, for example, has nothing to do with competitive play and everything to do with many units being extremely lackluster for no apparent reason.

Yah, nobody likes to see large amounts of head-scratchingly bad/overpriced units/upgrades in their codex. It makes all that apparent variety melt away.

When you compare Chaos Marines to regular marines, you cry. Yes they might be marines, but they will run away and do not have ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics so on so forth. Yes we have marks and icons. But icons can be sniped and then the whole squad loses their bonus.

krodarklorr wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Elites amazing!? Ha ha ha! The Helbrute sucks, our terminators are better only if you termicide, mutilators are horrid, KSons are some of the worst units in the game, Berzerkers are very bad, and Noise Marines and Plague Marines aren't really worth it as elites. Seriously our elites suck. Noise Marines are good troops but even then, you see cultists not Plague Marines. Noise Marines are even more situational. You forgot to mention they get pricey and have drawbacks. CSM suck so everybody grabs cultists which are really just crops guardsman to squat objectives. And the baleflamer so what? It also got a (deserved) nerf. Sure it can flame inside open topped vehicles but what really has open topped? A super fragile DE force and orks. The flames is not efficient against either as it's built to kill marines. Look at competitive and you'll see what CSM are worth. Nothing more than a way for daemons to get some cheap scoreless, a drake, and another DP. Heck, Abaddon got nefed to become a spawn or prince again.

We have a few good picks. Cultists, unmarked sorcerers maybe, heldrake (maybe), spawn, noise marines, plague marines, nurgle bikers, Khorne juggernaut, nurgle biker lord, obliterators, and a heavily kitted prince. The rest is mediocre to bad and even of these good picks few are good enough for competitive.

Also more options on troops means nothing if many are horrid. Some praise the marks yet SM gets tons of rules for free and one of the top 2 priciest only gives a 6++ save what a joke.

Well, if I felt that way about a codex, I'd play a different army then. My girlfriend plays stuff that she thinks is fun, and has done pretty well with it. And if you're ONLY looking for a straight competitive army, well then why even play the game. Go buy Tau or Eldar if you wanna be uber competitive.

Why do I play CSM? Because when I started nobody in my group played Chaos. I looked at them, read their lore, and ended up liking them particularly Tzeentch with Thousand Sons being what drew me in the most. I'm not looking for a straight competitive army. I play primarily CSM, Chaos Daemons, and IG. Now you might say hey! But the last two are top tier. Indeed they might be but my IG lists are a regiment of tanks and another that is a Lost and the Damned army with random weapons such as grenade launchers. My CD? I've never once played Flying Circus or Screamerstar and I'll never touch Nurgle because it's the god my favorite chaos god hates the most. I play this game to have fun with friends and for the fluff. That is paramount. That said, I like to have good options. I don't like to feel like by fielding my army I'm basically saying yeah win I'm just here to roll dice move my models and make pew pew noises. I want some challenge, I want to "Forge a Narrative". But this game makes it aggrivating. When I look in my codex and realize most of the choices are horrid and I am heavily impairing me to select KSons it frustrates me. I try to play them only for my enemy to plop down a Riptide/Pathfinder/buffmander list and I watch as I just have to sit and get stomped. I want this army to play. I want to see this game be balanced so every choice is worth it so my friends and myself can be truly free rather than having to police one another so that we never bring something OP despite the OP units sometimes actually being cool and appealing to us from a fluff and/or narrative standpoint.

And the biggest insult? Compare CSM troop marines to SM troop marines. It's a joke, an absolutely painful joke of a comparison. Sure you can pay for marks but then you either cost more or drastically more than the SM unit that for 1 point gets combat tactics, ANTSKNF, and a bountiful plethora of free special rules. It's aggrivating. I don't want to stomp people nor do I want to be stomped. The CSM Codex is Nurgle and Heldrake. If you are playing Nurgle, well lucky you have the one somewhat decent pick. Want to play Khorne or Tzeentch? Have fun sucking so much even BA after their nerfs can pity you!

It's kind of this way because once upon a time, Tzeentch/Khorne armies ruled the lands and Chaos was feared more than Tau are.

I still remember my ancient Chaos Sorcerer Lord army and his honor guard of 6 more sorcerers. Every one of them had Doombolt.

Kyutaru wrote:
It's kind of this way because once upon a time, Tzeentch/Khorne armies ruled the lands and Chaos was feared more than Tau are.

I still remember my ancient Chaos Sorcerer Lord army and his honor guard of 6 more sorcerers. Every one of them had Doombolt.

Ha ha ha huh? Please. Tzeentch and Khorne haven't really ruled. 6th edition the best choices were undivided or nurgle, 5th edition was nurgle with Slaanesh's lash being terrifying, 4th edition was Nurgle, 3rd edition was Slaanesh with undivided (Iron Warriors), so unless we are going back to 2nd or even 1st edition that makes no sense. KSons have never been good in all their existence and were one of the worst legions in 3.5.... Seriously, bar Chaos Daemons, I can't really think of much OP. The last time people truly deserved Chaos was their 3.5 edition codex where Iron Warriors and a specific Slaaneshi build (this was far worse than Warriors) broke it all so I don't really know what you are talking about.

Also, it's kind of this way because once upon a time something is good? So why aren't Eldar absolutely terrible. Eldar have consistently gotten broken good codices on release, Tau as well humerously (just didn't got updated in too long). That and Oblits, Plague Marines, and DP should all suck since they had basically been the good for chaos since 4th edition