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Post by: IndigoJack
So after showing up at my FLGS tonight and excitingly claiming that no one was going to cast psychic powers thanks to reinforced aegis, courtesy of the new GK FAQ, someone promptly  on my parade and told me I had interpreted the FAQ incorrectly. The way I understood it, was that dreadnoughts could re-roll parts of their DtW test and keep successes. So for a blessing, I would re-roll results of 1-5, keeping the 6s. My interpretation coming from the wording of aegis, which lets you re-roll results of 1. Clearly, I thought, reinforced aegis would be better that aegis. But I was informed that the wording stipulated that all of the dice must be re-rolled since to make a DtW test you make a DtW roll (of course, the words "Deny the Witch roll" are seen no where in the rulebook, just the FAQ). As you can imagine, this became a heated debate with lots of swearing and vows to never play against each other if we were going to play it according to our own interpretations. Of course, no agreement was ever reached. So now I put it to you dakka, which is the correct interpretation and why?
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Post by: IXLoiero95XI
You are correct, they are wrong. Each individual result of 6+ is a successful deny. Any that are less than 6 are failed and can be re-rolled. It's worth noting that dread noughts are ML1 so deny the witch against powers that target you are successful on a roll of 5
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Post by: Tonberry7
You have to re-roll the lot because the individual results are irrelevant. For example if you are trying to deny a WC3 power and roll 2 6's, you have still failed the DTW roll.
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Post by: IndigoJack
Actually, you failed the DtW test. There is no such thing in the rulebook as a DtW roll. But with a little work, we can extrapolate what a DtW roll might be. Under DtW, when talking about modifiers, it mentions that they modify "each individual roll", implying that DtW is made up of a collection of rolls. Additionally, when talking about denying blessings specifically, it says , "you will require rolls of 6 to nullify warp charge points." From here you can extrapolate that rolls of 6s are successful, and anything else is a failure. From here, it seems that a DtW test is made up of multiple rolls, and that re-rolling a failed roll is only the failed parts of the DtW test. If someone can prove this is wrong, I'm all for hearing it. Specific examples would be helpful!
EDIT: To be clear, the problem specifically stems from what a DtW roll is. Is a DtW roll everything you roll for the DtW test? Or is a role each dice that constitutes a DtW test?
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Post by: IXLoiero95XI
 IndigoJack wrote:Actually, you failed the DtW test. There is no such thing in the rulebook as a DtW roll. But with a little work, we can extrapolate what a DtW roll might be. Under DtW, when talking about modifiers, it mentions that they modify "each individual roll", implying that DtW is made up of a collection of rolls. Additionally, when talking about denying blessings specifically, it says , "you will require rolls of 6 to nullify warp charge points." From here you can extrapolate that rolls of 6s are successful, and anything else is a failure. From here, it seems that a DtW test is made up of multiple rolls, and that re-rolling a failed roll is only the failed parts of the DtW test. If someone can prove this is wrong, I'm all for hearing it. Specific examples would be helpful!
For each individual result of 6+, one Warp Charge point has been successfully nullified. If the total number of nullified Warp Charge points is equal to or greater than the number of harnessed Warp Charge points, the Deny the Witch test has been passed and the psychic power does not manifest.
Or we could just read this part lol
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Post by: Fachxphyre
 IXLoiero95XI wrote:You are correct, they are wrong. Each individual result of 6+ is a successful deny. Any that are less than 6 are failed and can be re-rolled. It's worth noting that dread noughts are ML1 so deny the witch against powers that target you are successful on a roll of 5
I absolutely agree. If you like, you could use TL weaponry as a comparison. When re-rolling failed to-hit rolls, you do not re-roll the successful to-hit dice along with the failures. Likewise, when re-rolling failed dice for Deny the Witch, you wouldn't re-roll the successes as well as the failures.
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Post by: IXLoiero95XI
 Tonberry7 wrote:You have to re-roll the lot because the individual results are irrelevant. For example if you are trying to deny a WC3 power and roll 2 6's, you have still failed the DTW roll.
Wrong. For one, you can't attempt to deny the witch unless you spend enough points to match that of your opponent. And two, it's a DTW test, that you have failed, not roll.
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Post by: Leonus
It seems pretty straight forward in the new FAQ, have yall read it yet?
"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls results of 1 when making Deny the Witch tests."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh wait, I misread your post. Disregard.
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Post by: chanceafs
I voted for re-rolling all, but upon seeing the arguments here, and noting the fact that the BRB does distinguish between a DtW roll, and a DtW test. The fact that aegis specifies DtW rolls means each die that fails, not the entire test. Cause if it meant you to re-roll the entire test, that is what it would say.
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Post by: Tonberry7
IXLoiero95XI wrote: Tonberry7 wrote:You have to re-roll the lot because the individual results are irrelevant. For example if you are trying to deny a WC3 power and roll 2 6's, you have still failed the DTW roll.
Wrong. For one, you can't attempt to deny the witch unless you spend enough points to match that of your opponent. And two, it's a DTW test, that you have failed, not roll.
Wrong. For one, I never claimed that you can DTW by spending less points than that of your opponents power. And two, the results of the individual rolls for the DTW test aren't actually defined as passes or fails.
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Post by: IXLoiero95XI
"For each individual result of 6+, one Warp Charge point has been successfully nullified. If the total number of nullified Warp Charge points is equal to or greater than the number of harnessed Warp Charge points, the Deny the Witch test has been passed and the psychic power does not manifest. "
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Notice 'successfully'
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Post by: Tonberry7
I didn't notice 'pass' or 'fail'. Surely you just roll the lot and then if you don't nullify enough charges you've failed the roll.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a related note, can you use the Aegis if the power isn't targetting the unit with it? Like for a blessing?
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Post by: IndigoJack
Tonberry7 wrote:I didn't notice 'pass' or 'fail'. Surely you just roll the lot and then if you don't nullify enough charges you've failed the roll.
No, as already stated, you failed the test, not the roll. If you have some evidence that suggests they're the same thing, please share it.
On a related note, can you use the Aegis if the power isn't targetting the unit with it? Like for a blessing?
Pg. 26, "If none of your units were the target of the enemy's psychic power (the power in question might be a blessing, a conjuration, or some other power that only affects the Psyker's own troops), you can still attempt to Deny the Witch. To do so, follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls- you will require rolls of 6 to nullify Warp Charge points."
This is what makes my interpretation so powerful. I can pretty much shutdown my opponent's psychic phase. There has yet to be a clear argument against it though, so I feel like my interpretation is correct.
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Post by: rigeld2
IndigoJack wrote:This is what makes my interpretation so powerful. I can pretty much shutdown my opponent's psychic phase. There has yet to be a clear argument against it though, so I feel like my interpretation is correct.
Except you're not allowed to apply any bonuses when denying something that didn't target you.
Re-rolling is a bonus.
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Post by: IndigoJack
rigeld2 wrote: IndigoJack wrote:This is what makes my interpretation so powerful. I can pretty much shutdown my opponent's psychic phase. There has yet to be a clear argument against it though, so I feel like my interpretation is correct.
Except you're not allowed to apply any bonuses when denying something that didn't target you.
Re-rolling is a bonus.
The FAQ says, "This unit can re-roll any (emphasis mine) Deny the Witch roll." Where have re-rolls ever been stated as a bonus?
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Post by: rigeld2
IndigoJack wrote:rigeld2 wrote: IndigoJack wrote:This is what makes my interpretation so powerful. I can pretty much shutdown my opponent's psychic phase. There has yet to be a clear argument against it though, so I feel like my interpretation is correct.
Except you're not allowed to apply any bonuses when denying something that didn't target you.
Re-rolling is a bonus.
The FAQ says, "This unit can re-roll any (emphasis mine) Deny the Witch roll." Where have re-rolls ever been stated as a bonus?
First question: Is bonus defined anywhere in the BRB?
Second question: Since it's not, how do you define it?
Third question: Since the obvious answer to #2 is "normal English" how is not not a bonus?
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Post by: Mythra
Rerolls are not a bonus lol? You don't add or subtract them from a die roll.
If that were true you could never use an aegis lol.
You only re roll failed dice. The Reinforced says re roll any failed roll not test.
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Post by: rigeld2
 Mythra wrote:Rerolls are not a bonus lol? You don't add or subtract them from a die roll.
Things that add or subtract are defined in the game as modifiers. lol.
If that were true you could never use an aegis lol.
Except when you're allowed to apply bonuses - like, I don't know - when you're targeted by a power? lol.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
rigeld2 wrote: Mythra wrote:Rerolls are not a bonus lol? You don't add or subtract them from a die roll.
Things that add or subtract are defined in the game as modifiers. lol.
If that were true you could never use an aegis lol.
Except when you're allowed to apply bonuses - like, I don't know - when you're targeted by a power? lol.
Does the Blessing DTW paragraph state no modifiers, no bonuses, or no modifiers or bonuses?
If it states no modifiers only, a reroll is not a modifier
As for the rest of the argument I'd say reroll only rolls that failed, even if the DTW in general fails, a roll of 6 is still a 'success" which wouldnt warrant a reroll.
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Post by: rigeld2
 WrentheFaceless wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Mythra wrote:Rerolls are not a bonus lol? You don't add or subtract them from a die roll.
Things that add or subtract are defined in the game as modifiers. lol.
If that were true you could never use an aegis lol.
Except when you're allowed to apply bonuses - like, I don't know - when you're targeted by a power? lol.
Does the Blessing DTW paragraph state no modifiers, no bonuses, or no modifiers or bonuses?
If it states no modifiers only, a reroll is not a modifier
As for the rest of the argument I'd say reroll only rolls that failed, even if the DTW in general fails, a roll of 6 is still a 'success" which wouldnt warrant a reroll.
It's been quoted to say no bonuses. I know a reroll isn't a modifier - I've never called it one.
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Post by: Mythra
Why would you make it work differently than an aegis anyhow? Reroll 1s and reinforced reroll 1-5s.
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Post by: rigeld2
Mythra wrote:Why would you make it work differently than an aegis anyhow? Reroll 1s and reinforced reroll 2-5s.
I'm not. I'm asserting that you can do that - but only against powers that are targeting you. Not your opponent's blessings.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
rigeld2 wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Mythra wrote:Rerolls are not a bonus lol? You don't add or subtract them from a die roll.
Things that add or subtract are defined in the game as modifiers. lol.
If that were true you could never use an aegis lol.
Except when you're allowed to apply bonuses - like, I don't know - when you're targeted by a power? lol.
Does the Blessing DTW paragraph state no modifiers, no bonuses, or no modifiers or bonuses?
If it states no modifiers only, a reroll is not a modifier
As for the rest of the argument I'd say reroll only rolls that failed, even if the DTW in general fails, a roll of 6 is still a 'success" which wouldnt warrant a reroll.
It's been quoted to say no bonuses. I know a reroll isn't a modifier - I've never called it one.
The quote of the paragraph from indigo jack only states no modifiers, where does it state no bonuses?
IndigoJack wrote:
Pg. 26, "If none of your units were the target of the enemy's psychic power (the power in question might be a blessing, a conjuration, or some other power that only affects the Psyker's own troops), you can still attempt to Deny the Witch. To do so, follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls- you will require rolls of 6 to nullify Warp Charge points."
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Post by: Mythra
In the rule it does say re roll ANY DtW roll not just blessings or Maledictions. A blessing being canceled is still a DtW roll.
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Post by: Zimko
The FAQ rule.
'Reinforced Aegis: This unit can re-roll any failed Deny the Witch roll.'
RAW... *sigh*... The unit doesn't make a Deny the Witch roll, therefore this rule is useless.
HIWPI: The rule only comes into effect when the unit with it is targeted by a power and you try to DtW that power (thus making it kind of like the unit is rolling the DtW... even though in the rules it is not, YOU are)
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Post by: Kaela_Mensha_Khaine
IndigoJack wrote:Actually, you failed the DtW test. There is no such thing in the rulebook as a DtW roll. But with a little work, we can extrapolate what a DtW roll might be. Under DtW, when talking about modifiers, it mentions that they modify "each individual roll", implying that DtW is made up of a collection of rolls. Additionally, when talking about denying blessings specifically, it says , "you will require rolls of 6 to nullify warp charge points." From here you can extrapolate that rolls of 6s are successful, and anything else is a failure. From here, it seems that a DtW test is made up of multiple rolls, and that re-rolling a failed roll is only the failed parts of the DtW test. If someone can prove this is wrong, I'm all for hearing it. Specific examples would be helpful!
EDIT: To be clear, the problem specifically stems from what a DtW roll is. Is a DtW roll everything you roll for the DtW test? Or is a role each dice that constitutes a DtW test?
Well if DtW is a test we can extrapolate that it must act like a characteristic test or a leadership test. Both of which say to roll a D6 and 2D6 respectively. So a DtW test is a XD6 roll where X is the number of Warp Charge points.
Is a leadership roll everything you roll for the leadership test? or is a roll each dice that constitutes a Leadership test?
And on page 11 under Re-roll if you re-roll a 2D6 or a 3D6 (we can extrapolate this to include XD6) roll you must re-roll all of the dice not just some of them, unless the rules specify otherwise. Of course that last part is what is in question, But If you rolled 2D6 and got higher than your leadership you failed the leadership test. If you get to re-roll your failed leadership roll you have to re-roll all the dice. If you didn't roll enough 6+ to deny a power you failed the DtW test, If you get to re-roll your DtW roll you have to re-roll all the dice.
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Post by: IndigoJack
No, you can't extrapolate that at all. Any time you roll an xd6, you use the sum of the numbers. A DtW test is different, as each roll must be a 6+ to be successful, and the test is passed if you successfully nullify your opponents warp charges.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Zimko wrote:The FAQ rule.
' Reinforced Aegis: This unit can re-roll any failed Deny the Witch roll.'
RAW... *sigh*... The unit doesn't make a Deny the Witch roll, therefore this rule is useless.
HIWPI: The rule only comes into effect when the unit with it is targeted by a power and you try to DtW that power (thus making it kind of like the unit is rolling the DtW... even though in the rules it is not, YOU are)
Then RAW the +1 for being a psyker, +1 for a higher level psyker +1 adamantum will isnt valid since the "Unit" isnt making the DTW thus no unit modifiers can be added to a DTW roll, if you're reading it that way. Though if thats your interpretation its not really RAW is it..?
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Post by: Zimko
'Reinforced Aegis: This unit can re-roll any failed Deny the Witch roll.'
What is a failed or successful Deny the Witch roll? The BRB doesn't define this.
RAW: This rule is stupid
HIWPI: Each individual roll when rolling for DtW can be determined as a success or failure by whether or not it nullified a warp charge... therefore each roll can be re-rolled no matter how many dice you used for the overall DtW test.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Zimko wrote:'Reinforced Aegis: This unit can re-roll any failed Deny the Witch roll.'
What is a failed or successful Deny the Witch roll? The BRB doesn't define this.
RAW: This rule is stupid
HIWPI: Each individual roll when rolling for DtW can be determined as a success or failure by whether or not it nullified a warp charge... therefore each roll can be re-rolled no matter how many dice you used for the overall DtW test.
Yes it does? A successful DTW roll is defined as enough qualifying rolls to negate your opponents successes for casting the power
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Post by: Zimko
WrentheFaceless wrote:Zimko wrote:The FAQ rule.
' Reinforced Aegis: This unit can re-roll any failed Deny the Witch roll.'
RAW... *sigh*... The unit doesn't make a Deny the Witch roll, therefore this rule is useless.
HIWPI: The rule only comes into effect when the unit with it is targeted by a power and you try to DtW that power (thus making it kind of like the unit is rolling the DtW... even though in the rules it is not, YOU are)
Then RAW the +1 for being a psyker, +1 for a higher level psyker +1 adamantum will isnt valid since the "Unit" isnt making the DTW thus no unit modifiers can be added to a DTW roll, if you're reading it that way. Though if thats your interpretation its not really RAW is it..?
I stand corrected, it would imply that the unit makes a DtW test when it is targeted. Since that is the case, then it is clear that the Aegis only applies when the unit that has the Aegis is targeted. Therefore it can't be used to deny blessings since the unit with the Aegis is not the unit making the DtW test. Automatically Appended Next Post: WrentheFaceless wrote:Zimko wrote:'Reinforced Aegis: This unit can re-roll any failed Deny the Witch roll.'
What is a failed or successful Deny the Witch roll? The BRB doesn't define this.
RAW: This rule is stupid
HIWPI: Each individual roll when rolling for DtW can be determined as a success or failure by whether or not it nullified a warp charge... therefore each roll can be re-rolled no matter how many dice you used for the overall DtW test.
Yes it does? A successful DTW roll is defined as enough qualifying rolls to negate your opponents successes for casting the power
You're assuming a DtW roll = a DtW test. It is a fair assumption, and given the new nature of how DtW works (in that no other test is similar in nature to DtW) I'd be willing to agree for HIWPI purposes.
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Post by: IndigoJack
Zimko wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:Zimko wrote:The FAQ rule.
' Reinforced Aegis: This unit can re-roll any failed Deny the Witch roll.'
RAW... *sigh*... The unit doesn't make a Deny the Witch roll, therefore this rule is useless.
HIWPI: The rule only comes into effect when the unit with it is targeted by a power and you try to DtW that power (thus making it kind of like the unit is rolling the DtW... even though in the rules it is not, YOU are)
Then RAW the +1 for being a psyker, +1 for a higher level psyker +1 adamantum will isnt valid since the "Unit" isnt making the DTW thus no unit modifiers can be added to a DTW roll, if you're reading it that way. Though if thats your interpretation its not really RAW is it..?
I stand corrected, it would imply that the unit makes a DtW test when it is targeted. Since that is the case, then it is clear that the Aegis only applies when the unit that has the Aegis is targeted. Therefore it can't be used to deny blessings since the unit with the Aegis is not the unit making the DtW test.
You can make a DtW test even if you're not targeted. See where I quoted the text earlier.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
WrentheFaceless wrote:Zimko wrote:'Reinforced Aegis: This unit can re-roll any failed Deny the Witch roll.'
What is a failed or successful Deny the Witch roll? The BRB doesn't define this.
RAW: This rule is stupid
HIWPI: Each individual roll when rolling for DtW can be determined as a success or failure by whether or not it nullified a warp charge... therefore each roll can be re-rolled no matter how many dice you used for the overall DtW test.
Yes it does? A successful DTW roll is defined as enough qualifying rolls to negate your opponents successes for casting the power
You're assuming a DtW roll = a DtW test. It is a fair assumption, and given the new nature of how DtW works (in that no other test is similar in nature to DtW) I'd be willing to agree for HIWPI purposes.
The problem is that the author of the FAQ used DtW test when talking about aegis, so it isn't like the didn't know what a DtW test was. If you have evidence that a DtW test and roll are the same thing, As of right now, it seems that a fairly solid case for a DtW roll being the individual rolls and a DtW test being the collection of rolls.
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Post by: Zimko
IndigoJack wrote:Zimko wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:Zimko wrote:The FAQ rule.
' Reinforced Aegis: This unit can re-roll any failed Deny the Witch roll.'
RAW... *sigh*... The unit doesn't make a Deny the Witch roll, therefore this rule is useless.
HIWPI: The rule only comes into effect when the unit with it is targeted by a power and you try to DtW that power (thus making it kind of like the unit is rolling the DtW... even though in the rules it is not, YOU are)
Then RAW the +1 for being a psyker, +1 for a higher level psyker +1 adamantum will isnt valid since the "Unit" isnt making the DTW thus no unit modifiers can be added to a DTW roll, if you're reading it that way. Though if thats your interpretation its not really RAW is it..?
I stand corrected, it would imply that the unit makes a DtW test when it is targeted. Since that is the case, then it is clear that the Aegis only applies when the unit that has the Aegis is targeted. Therefore it can't be used to deny blessings since the unit with the Aegis is not the unit making the DtW test.
You can make a DtW test even if you're not targeted. See where I quoted the text earlier.
Yes, YOU can make the roll. But the unit doesn't make a roll so the Aegis doesn't kick in for blessings. ( RAW) Or am I looking too deeply into this?
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Post by: IndigoJack
Well the unit is made up of inanimate metal, plastic and resin, and can therefore never roll any dice, I must roll for it. But beside that, the FAQ says "The unit can re-roll any failed DtW roll." And when denying blessing, you can nominate a unit to DtW. Honestly, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
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Post by: Kaela_Mensha_Khaine
IndigoJack wrote:No, you can't extrapolate that at all. Any time you roll an xd6, you use the sum of the numbers. A DtW test is different, as each roll must be a 6+ to be successful, and the test is passed if you successfully nullify your opponents warp charges.
where is the rule for rolling xd6 and the sum of numbers?
Yes a DtW is different in that you need to roll a specific result (6+) a specific number of times (= or < to the number of successful warp charge points that your opponent roll). So a characteristic test is different from a dangerous terrain test which is different from a grounding test which is different from a leadership test which is different from a Psychic test which is different from a DtW test.
Whats common between all of them is that a roll is determined if the test passes or fails and the universal rule of how re-rolls affect a dice roll.
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Post by: grendel083
IndigoJack wrote:And when denying blessing, you can nominate a unit to DtW. Honestly, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
You can only nominate a unit that was targeted.
If it wasn't targeted to can't nominate them. Blessing don't target your units.
The rule never gives you free rein to just pick a unit to deny with.
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Post by: Zimko
IndigoJack wrote:Well the unit is made up of inanimate metal, plastic and resin, and can therefore never roll any dice, I must roll for it. But beside that, the FAQ says " The unit can re-roll any failed DtW roll." And when denying blessing, you can nominate a unit to DtW. Honestly, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
What I am getting at is that a unit with the Aegis can not use the Aegis to reroll a DtW test/roll against a blessing or any power that doesn't target them.
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Post by: IndigoJack
Ah thank you. I see that now. That clears up much. Thank you!
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Post by: grendel083
Zimko wrote: IndigoJack wrote:Well the unit is made up of inanimate metal, plastic and resin, and can therefore never roll any dice, I must roll for it. But beside that, the FAQ says " The unit can re-roll any failed DtW roll." And when denying blessing, you can nominate a unit to DtW. Honestly, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
What I am getting at is that a unit with the Aegis can not use the Aegis to reroll a DtW test/roll against a blessing or any power that doesn't target them.
Absolutley correct!
If they weren't targeted, they can't be nominated to Deny.
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Post by: Kaela_Mensha_Khaine
 grendel083 wrote: IndigoJack wrote:And when denying blessing, you can nominate a unit to DtW. Honestly, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
You can only nominate a unit that was targeted.
If it wasn't targeted to can't nominate them. Blessing don't target your units.
The rule never gives you free rein to just pick a unit to deny with.
BRB pg 26
If none of your units were the target of the enemy's psychic power... you can still attempt to deny the witch. To do so follow the same process but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls.
Now RAW is to follow the same process but can't pick a unit that wasn't targeted so no one can deny but that is definitely not RAI.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote: grendel083 wrote: IndigoJack wrote:And when denying blessing, you can nominate a unit to DtW. Honestly, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
You can only nominate a unit that was targeted.
If it wasn't targeted to can't nominate them. Blessing don't target your units.
The rule never gives you free rein to just pick a unit to deny with.
BRB pg 26
If none of your units were the target of the enemy's psychic power... you can still attempt to deny the witch. To do so follow the same process but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls.
Now RAW is to follow the same process but can't pick a unit that wasn't targeted so no one can deny but that is definitely not RAI.
Doesnt the same process include nominating a unit to deny though?
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Post by: grendel083
Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:Now RAW is to follow the same process but can't pick a unit that wasn't targeted so no one can deny but that is definitely not RAI.
I totally disagree. I think it's completely RAI.
Why should a unit that was never targeted, and is sat on the other side of the battlefield, suddenly be able to deny a power as if they were shot by it? That makes no sense at all.
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Post by: Zimko
WrentheFaceless wrote:Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote: grendel083 wrote: IndigoJack wrote:And when denying blessing, you can nominate a unit to DtW. Honestly, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
You can only nominate a unit that was targeted.
If it wasn't targeted to can't nominate them. Blessing don't target your units.
The rule never gives you free rein to just pick a unit to deny with.
BRB pg 26
If none of your units were the target of the enemy's psychic power... you can still attempt to deny the witch. To do so follow the same process but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls.
Now RAW is to follow the same process but can't pick a unit that wasn't targeted so no one can deny but that is definitely not RAI.
Doesnt the same process include nominating a unit to deny though?
It does, so RAW is you can't nominate a unit and therefore can't DtW... but that clearly isn't RAI and not how anyone is going to play it.
HIWPI is that no unit is making the DtW roll, you are. (in the case of powers that don't target your units)
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Post by: grendel083
Yes, from the units targeted.
No units were targted, so how can you nominated a unit? You can't.
So no unit can be nominated.
I've no idea where this notion comes from that you can magically nominate any unit you want.
Makes denying Blessing potentially easier than a whichfire that actually targets something.
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Post by: IndigoJack
Yeah, but you nominate a unit that was targeted by the power, and since no unit is targeted by blessings/conjurations, they can't deny. It's a contradiction in the rules.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
grendel083 wrote:Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:Now RAW is to follow the same process but can't pick a unit that wasn't targeted so no one can deny but that is definitely not RAI.
I totally disagree. I think it's completely RAI.
Why should a unit that was never targeted, and is sat on the other side of the battlefield, suddenly be able to deny a power as if they were shot by it? That makes no sense at all.
Then how would you even deny blessings in general with that reasoning? Why should an army be able to do anything to a power that doesnt affect them at all? If you dont nominate the unit, who's attempting to disrupt and deny the blessing?
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Post by: grendel083
WrentheFaceless wrote: grendel083 wrote:Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:Now RAW is to follow the same process but can't pick a unit that wasn't targeted so no one can deny but that is definitely not RAI.
I totally disagree. I think it's completely RAI.
Why should a unit that was never targeted, and is sat on the other side of the battlefield, suddenly be able to deny a power as if they were shot by it? That makes no sense at all.
Then how would you even deny blessings in general with that reasoning? Why should an army be able to do anything to a power that doesnt affect them at all?
Because the rules say you can?
That you can attempt to Deny even if it doesn't target one of your units.
Are you after a fluff answer?
Because the rules don't allow you to nominate a unit that wasn't targeted.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
grendel083 wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote: grendel083 wrote:Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:Now RAW is to follow the same process but can't pick a unit that wasn't targeted so no one can deny but that is definitely not RAI.
I totally disagree. I think it's completely RAI.
Why should a unit that was never targeted, and is sat on the other side of the battlefield, suddenly be able to deny a power as if they were shot by it? That makes no sense at all.
Then how would you even deny blessings in general with that reasoning? Why should an army be able to do anything to a power that doesnt affect them at all?
Because the rules say you can?
That you can attempt to Deny even if it doesn't target one of your units.
I can make the rolls to deny, but im not Denying, I'm not a game unit. What unit is able to deny blessings if you're not allowing a unit to deny per the normal deny phase? If i cant nominate a unity to deny, techinically I cant deny it myself as I'm not a unit.
No fluff answer intended, the normal DTW is to nominate a unit to deny, if you cant nominate a unit if its not targeted by an ability, how are you able to deny? Being unable to nominate a unit to deny breaks the Deny chain of events.
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Post by: IndigoJack
grendel083 wrote:Yes, from the units targeted.
No units were targted, so how can you nominated a unit? You can't.
So no unit can be nominated.
I've no idea where this notion comes from that you can magically nominate any unit you want.
Makes denying Blessing potentially easier than a whichfire that actually targets something.
"...you can still attempt to DtW. To do so, follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls."
Steps for DtW
1) Select one of your units targeted by the enemy psychic power
2) Declare number of WC points you will spend and remove them from your pool
3) Roll a number of D6 equal to the number of WC points expended.
So to deny blessings/conjurations, you follow the same steps. Step one is select a unit. However, this fails because the unit needs to be targeted by the enemy power, and enemy blessings/conjurations don't target your units. So RAW, you can't deny blessings/conjurations, even though is says you can. HIWPI, it says that you can deny spells that don't target you, so follow the same steps and ignore the part about needing to be targeted by enemy psychic powers.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
IndigoJack wrote: grendel083 wrote:Yes, from the units targeted.
No units were targted, so how can you nominated a unit? You can't.
So no unit can be nominated.
I've no idea where this notion comes from that you can magically nominate any unit you want.
Makes denying Blessing potentially easier than a whichfire that actually targets something.
"...you can still attempt to DtW. To do so, follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls."
Steps for DtW
1) Select one of your units targeted by the enemy psychic power
2) Declare number of WC points you will spend and remove them from your pool
3) Roll a number of D6 equal to the number of WC points expended.
So to deny blessings/conjurations, you follow the same steps. Step one is select a unit. However, this fails because the unit needs to be targeted by the enemy power, and enemy blessings/conjurations don't target your units. So RAW, you can't deny blessings/conjurations, even though is says you can. HIWPI, it says that you can deny spells that don't target you, so follow the same steps and ignore the part about needing to be targeted by enemy psychic powers.
This, if you're not able to preform step 1 as you cant select a unit since a unit wasnt targeted then RAW, you're not allowed to deny blessings since you cant "Follow the same process"
Most armies this wouldnt matter, as you could select any unit since all others have + modifiers to their DTW, which is strictly ignored per the rules, but GK Aegis isnt a modifier.
Also to further reinforce that you nominate a unit to deny Blessings, is that sentance that states "No modifiers can be taken for this" for the Blessing deny, which is assuming that you have picked a unit, and normaly that unit would get modifiers to DTW
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Post by: Kaela_Mensha_Khaine
grendel083 wrote:Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:Now RAW is to follow the same process but can't pick a unit that wasn't targeted so no one can deny but that is definitely not RAI.
I totally disagree. I think it's completely RAI.
Why should a unit that was never targeted, and is sat on the other side of the battlefield, suddenly be able to deny a power as if they were shot by it? That makes no sense at all.
I think we have a misunderstanding, I agree with you but RAW it says "to follow the same process" which would include picking a target of the power to DtW with but none of your units are targeted so blessing can't be Denied strictly RAW, but if RAI is for blessing being deniable then you come to 2 options picking a unit to deny with or just rolling a DtW test. in the rules it states that you wouldn't get modifiers to the rolls making it possible to assume that a unit could be denying the blessing or that you don't get bonuses because (as my friends who play fantasy and equate it to the magic phase would say) that the warp is resisting and fighting back and the player picking how many dice to roll is just a coincidence.
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Post by: grendel083
So when told to "nominate a unit that was targeted"...
We have 2 options.
1). No unit was targeted, so no unit can be nominated. Move on to next step.
2). Invent a rule that allows us to pick what ever unit we wish. Potentially giving a greater chance of denying than if a unit had been target by a WitchFire because we can cherrypick the one with the best bonuses. In other words, a greater chance than a targeted power! (Last edition a deny wasn't even posible against a blessing).
Why is "no valid unit" not an acceptable answer, but inventing a rule is?
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Post by: Zimko
grendel083 wrote:So when told to "nominate a unit that was targeted"...
We have 2 options.
1). No unit was targeted, so no unit can be nominated. Move on to next step.
2). Invent a rule that allows us to pick what ever unit we wish. Potentially giving a greater chance of denying than if a unit had been target by a WitchFire because we can cherrypick the one with the best bonuses. In other words, a greater chance than a targeted power! (Last edition a deny wasn't even posible against a blessing).
Why is "no valid unit" not an acceptable answer, but inventing a rule is?
Skipping step 1 instead of inventing a rule for step 1 also seems like the easiest option since it doesn't break anything. I agree with skipping step 1.
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Post by: IndigoJack
Why is ignoring part of one step any less valid than ignoring the whole step?
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Post by: DeathReaper
WrentheFaceless wrote:This, if you're not able to preform step 1 as you cant select a unit since a unit wasnt targeted then RAW, you're not allowed to deny blessings since you cant "Follow the same process"
This is correct. Strict RAW you can not deny Psychic powers that do not target your units because you can not follow step 1 of the process. Steps for DtW 1) Select one of your units targeted by the enemy psychic power 2) Declare number of WC points you will spend and remove them from your pool 3) Roll a number of D6 equal to the number of WC points expended.
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Post by: Zimko
IndigoJack wrote:Why is ignoring part of one step any less valid than ignoring the whole step?
I suppose it's not, but that's HIWPI. I think we can all agree now that RAW is you can't DtW a power that doesn't target your units, so how you play it is up to you.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
grendel083 wrote:So when told to "nominate a unit that was targeted"...
We have 2 options.
1). No unit was targeted, so no unit can be nominated. Move on to next step.
2). Invent a rule that allows us to pick what ever unit we wish. Potentially giving a greater chance of denying than if a unit had been target by a WitchFire because we can cherrypick the one with the best bonuses. In other words, a greater chance than a targeted power! (Last edition a deny wasn't even posible against a blessing).
Why is "no valid unit" not an acceptable answer, but inventing a rule is?
Because of this rule :
IndigoJack wrote:
Pg. 26, "If none of your units were the target of the enemy's psychic power (the power in question might be a blessing, a conjuration, or some other power that only affects the Psyker's own troops), you can still attempt to Deny the Witch. To do so, follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls- you will require rolls of 6 to nullify Warp Charge points."
Why would they bother adding the no modifier bit if modifiers are only calculated on a unit by unit basis. Its assuming you selected a unit to deny, but they dont get any modifiers for denying blessings/conjurations.
Being unable to nominate the unit breaks chain for being able to Deny, We're given permission to deny blessings, using the "Same process" therefore we would still have to nominate a unit as being unable to nominate a unit would leave you unable to follow all steps there after according to the 'same process'
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Post by: grendel083
WrentheFaceless wrote:Being unable to nominate the unit breaks chain for being able to Deny, We're given permission to deny blessings, using the "Same process" therefore we would still have to nominate a unit as being unable to nominate a unit would leave you unable to follow all steps there after according to the 'same process'
And picking any unit you like is not only breaking a rule, but replacing it with a made up one.
And opens up Denying to abuse like... Denying a blessing with an improved agis model that was never targeted.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
grendel083 wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:Being unable to nominate the unit breaks chain for being able to Deny, We're given permission to deny blessings, using the "Same process" therefore we would still have to nominate a unit as being unable to nominate a unit would leave you unable to follow all steps there after according to the 'same process'
And picking any unit you like is not only breaking a rule, but replacing it with a made up one.
And opens up Denying to abuse like... Denying a blessing with an improved agis model that was never targeted.
Really, what rule am I breaking? I'm following the "Same process" by nominating a unit to deny then proceeding with the rest of the steps.
Ignoring step 1 is 'breaking the rule'
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Post by: grendel083
You're joking right? The rule says pick a unit that was targeted, and you want to pick one that wasn't. You don't think that's breaking a rule?
I'm following the "Same process" by nominating a unit to deny then proceeding with the rest of the steps.
Except you know full well that is NOT what the rule says. You must pick a unit that was targeted.
Ignoring step 1 is 'breaking the rule'
First can you prove that "none" isn't a valid option when picking a unit?
If it isn't an option, then the game breaks and grinds to a halt.
You can either move on, or invent a rule that's whide open to abuse. I prefer to break as few rules as possible.
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Post by: IndigoJack
grendel083 wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:Being unable to nominate the unit breaks chain for being able to Deny, We're given permission to deny blessings, using the "Same process" therefore we would still have to nominate a unit as being unable to nominate a unit would leave you unable to follow all steps there after according to the 'same process'
And picking any unit you like is not only breaking a rule, but replacing it with a made up one.
And opens up Denying to abuse like... Denying a blessing with an improved agis model that was never targeted.
Skipping the first step is just as rule breaking as skipping part of the step. It's not even as abusive as you think it is. If someone has 4 or more successes, it's going to be hard to deny even with a re-roll. And it's not a permanent effect, all you have to do is remove the AV12 dreadnought, not exactly an impossible feat for most armies to do in a couple of turns.
Zimko wrote: IndigoJack wrote:Why is ignoring part of one step any less valid than ignoring the whole step?
I suppose it's not, but that's HIWPI. I think we can all agree now that RAW is you can't DtW a power that doesn't target your units, so how you play it is up to you.
I agree, this is not going to be something resolved RAW. I've already emailed the FAQ department at GW, hopefully this gets answered in the near future.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 grendel083 wrote:First can you prove that "none" isn't a valid option when picking a unit?
Yes, I can. the rule says, "select one of your units that was targeted by the psychic power." That means you pick one. It doesn't say you may, there is no option.
If it isn't an option, then the game breaks and grinds to a halt.
You can either move on, or invent a rule that's whide open to abuse. I prefer to break as few rules as possible.
Again, I argue that ignoring part of a step is no worse than completely ignoring it. You feel like this shouldn't be possible because it is easily abusable. I think the spirit of the rule implies that you still select a target to deny, as it states you don't get any bonuses (which implies that you have to select units that get a bonus to begin with).
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
grendel083 wrote:You're joking right? The rule says pick a unit that was targeted, and you want to pick one that wasn't. You don't think that's breaking a rule?
Rule is to follow the "same process' which includes nominating a unit to deny, where does it state you dont pick a unit, or no unit is allowed to be picked?
]Except you know full well that is NOT what the rule says. You must pick a unit that was targeted.
Strict RAW then means you cant deny a blessing at all as you cant follow the 'same process
First can you prove that "none" isn't a valid option when picking a unit?
Can you prove "none" IS a valid option? The DTW process refers to nominating a unit, if you're not able to then the process doesnt work. Regardless of being targeted, if you dont nominate a unit to deny blessings, then why the extra bit about not applying modifiers. Not having a unit deny would already have no modifiers, theres no unit to base modifiers off of.
You can either move on, or invent a rule that's whide open to abuse. I prefer to break as few rules as possible.
I'm inventing nothing, you're inventing the rule that you ignore the normal DTW process.
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Post by: grendel083
WrentheFaceless wrote: grendel083 wrote:You're joking right? The rule says pick a unit that was targeted, and you want to pick one that wasn't. You don't think that's breaking a rule?
Rule is to follow the "same process' which includes nominating a unit to deny, where does it state you dont pick a unit, or no unit is allowed to be picked?
Where does it state any unit may be picked?
]Except you know full well that is NOT what the rule says. You must pick a unit that was targeted.
Strict RAW then means you cant deny a blessing at all as you cant follow the 'same process
Yes, strict RaW the game grinds to a halt.
First can you prove that "none" isn't a valid option when picking a unit?
Can you prove "none" IS a valid option? The DTW process refers to nominating a unit, if you're not able to then the process doesnt work. Regardless of being targeted, if you dont nominate a unit to deny blessings, then why the extra bit about not applying modifiers. Not having a unit deny would already have no modifiers, theres no unit to base modifiers off of.
No I can't prove it. It's a unclear rule.
What is crystal clear however is that it never says you can pick a unit that wasn't targeted.
So you can either pick an unclear answer, break a rule and move one, or invent a rule open to abuse.
Your profile pick would seem to indicate why you're infavour of the "invented" option 
You can either move on, or invent a rule that's whide open to abuse. I prefer to break as few rules as possible.
I'm inventing nothing, you're inventing the rule that you ignore the normal DTW process.
Nothing? You're suggesting picking any unit you like to deny, are you not? No rule says that. You honestly can't claim you're inventing nothing.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
grendel083 wrote:No I can't prove it. It's a unclear rule.
What is crystal clear however is that it never says you can pick a unit that wasn't targeted.
So you can either pick an unclear answer, break a rule and move one, or invent a rule open to abuse.
Your profile pick would seem to indicate why you're infavour of the "invented" option
Its also clear that it never says you pick no unit at all.
So either we're breaking or inventing a rule, which is a bad option either way. In either case we're both inventing rules or lack there of to go by what we think, as it is an unclear rule.
RAW: Doesnt work as the process breaks down.
RAI: Well I'm a GK player, perhaps I'm a bit biased
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Post by: grendel083
Agreed.
But it's new rules and there's still bugs to iron out.
But to give an example from your codex:
1). A Witchfire is used on a Hentchmen warband. There are no Psykers in or near the unit. They must be nominated, deny is on a 6+
2). A blessing is cast. You nominate a Dreadnought that was never targeted. Deny is on a 6+ with re-rolls.
Does this seem correct? That a power without a target can have a better chance of being denied than one that did?
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Post by: IndigoJack
I can prove it is crystal clear. It says, "select one of your units that was a target of the enemy's psychic power." It does not say you may select a unit, it says select one. So we're left with selecting a unit that can't deny the witch. Further down, it says that you may DtW even if it isn't a power that targets your units. I would say that cancels out the part where it says "the target of the enemy psychic power." Yes, I realize that it says you, and not your unit, how many other instances are there of rolls that you make that aren't for a unit? The first roll-off, seizing, reserves, and mysterious objectives are all I've got.. It's not a leap of logic to assume that when you roll a DtW, you roll it for a unit. This is not RAW, but as we've seen, RAW doesn't work.
What is crystal clear however is that it never says you can pick a unit that wasn't targeted.
Then as you stated, the game breaks, and DtW against blessings and conjurations is impossible.
So you can either pick an unclear answer, break a rule and move one, or invent a rule open to abuse.
Your profile pick would seem to indicate why you're infavour of the "invented" option
We're ignoring less of the rule than you. I'd even argue that stopping psychic powers is less abusive than what some of those powers can do.
You can either move on, or invent a rule that's whide open to abuse. I prefer to break as few rules as possible.
Nothing? You're suggesting picking any unit you like to deny, are you not? No rule says that. You honestly can't claim you're inventing nothing.
Yes, a rule does say that. it's been quoted several times. Yes, as been stated, it only works on powers that target your unit. As you yourself stated, RAW, it breaks the game. We're only trying to modify as few rules as possible to make it work, rather than ignoring a whole section because we find it abusive.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
grendel083 wrote:Agreed.
But it's new rules and there's still bugs to iron out.
But to give an example from your codex:
1). A Witchfire is used on a Hentchmen warband. There are no Psykers in or near the unit. They must be nominated, deny is on a 6+
2). A blessing is cast. You nominate a Dreadnought that was never targeted. Deny is on a 6+ with re-rolls.
Does this seem correct? That a power without a target can have a better chance of being denied than one that did?
Fluff wise, makes sense to me the Aegis is supposed to defend against the warp.
Example 1: The warband is beign directly targeted so yes they should be the only ones that can affect it
Example 2: No target, wouldnt you select your best option to stop it if you had the choice and it didnt say you couldnt? Would make sense for the anti-daemon psyker army to use their best chance at stopping the enemy, but purely fluff.
Game mechanics, yea you usually pick your best option to stop something.
Though example 2 could also be: A blessing is cast, no one is targeted. You cant stop it because no one can because you dont know who can or if anyone can?
Which seems equally odd.
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Post by: grendel083
I'm sorry, you're really not.
Both sides agree step one cannot be completed.
I'm suggesting skipping what it says in step one because it can't be done.
Your side is also skipping what it says in step one, and in addition making up a rule that allows you pick whatever unit you wish to deny with.
I'd even argue that stopping psychic powers is less abusive than what some of those powers can do.
Ha! The balance of Psychic powers is another discussion entirely. I didn't write the rules for powers, but yes I agree. They fixed so many broken problems with this game... then they invented the Daemonic discipline and broke it further!
It is. But if you can choose to deny with any unit you like when there's no target, then why can't you just choose any unit when there is a target?
I mean the dread senses the power, and denies it. What difference would it make if it targeted someone else or no one?
You've got a game mechanic, that goes out of the way to say a power with no target can recieve no modifers. Seems like a blessing should be much harder to deny, that's what the rule is saying. So it makes no sense that you can pick any unit and deny it easier than a targeted witchfire.
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Post by: IndigoJack
grendel083 wrote:I'm sorry, you're really not.
Both sides agree step one cannot be completed.
I'm suggesting skipping what it says in step one because it can't be done.
Your side is also skipping what it says in step one, and in addition making up a rule that allows you pick whatever unit you wish to deny with.
No, we're saying only skip the parts of step one that make it impossible to deny blessings/conjurations. So you still pick a unit, it just doesn't have to be the target (since we all agree that's impossible.) Not inventing anything extra, just removing the part that breaks the mechanic. Were even arguing that the game probably intended it to work this way, as it says you don't get any modifiers to deny, which is something that only a unit can get. What your saying, is omit that part entirely. So for a visual, here's our argument (omitted parts in brackets).
"To make a Deny the Witch test, first select one of your units [that was a target of the enemy's psychic power]."
Now, here's what your saying to omit.:
"To make a Deny the Witch test, [first select one of your units that was a target of the enemy's psychic power]."
That pretty clearly shows that you're omitting more of the rule than us. Additionally, we're not inventing anything, as we're in no way adding anything to the tex that's already written, just removing parts of it, same as you. Saying that we're inventing rules a a basless claim, when in reality we are doing no worse than you.
Automatically Appended Next Post: grendel083 wrote:I'm sorry, you're really not.
Both sides agree step one cannot be completed.
I'm suggesting skipping what it says in step one because it can't be done.
Your side is also skipping what it says in step one, and in addition making up a rule that allows you pick whatever unit you wish to deny with.
I'd even argue that stopping psychic powers is less abusive than what some of those powers can do.
Ha! The balance of Psychic powers is another discussion entirely. I didn't write the rules for powers, but yes I agree. They fixed so many broken problems with this game... then they invented the Daemonic discipline and broke it further!
WrentheFaceless wrote:
You've got a game mechanic, that goes out of the way to say a power with no target can recieve no modifers. Seems like a blessing should be much harder to deny, that's what the rule is saying. So it makes no sense that you can pick any unit and deny it easier than a targeted witchfire.
Any why would it go out of the way to mention no modifiers if only units can modify their DtW roll? It seems like a silly inclusion unless units can deny powers that don't target them.
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Post by: grendel083
I'm saying I'm choosing "no unit" rather than "that unit".
That's not such a stretch.
And the deny rule works perfectly well with no unit nominated.
Yours invents a rule of "pick whatever unit you like".
It's also clearly against the intent of the rule. The fact it says you can add "no modifiers" is clear you're not suppose to be adding things to it.
Then you're suggesting the technicality of a "re-roll isn't a modifier". You're inventing a rule, to abuse the system!
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
grendel083 wrote:I'm sorry, you're really not.
Both sides agree step one cannot be completed.
I'm suggesting skipping what it says in step one because it can't be done.
Your side is also skipping what it says in step one, and in addition making up a rule that allows you pick whatever unit you wish to deny with.
I'd even argue that stopping psychic powers is less abusive than what some of those powers can do.
Ha! The balance of Psychic powers is another discussion entirely. I didn't write the rules for powers, but yes I agree. They fixed so many broken problems with this game... then they invented the Daemonic discipline and broke it further!
It is. But if you can choose to deny with any unit you like when there's no target, then why can't you just choose any unit when there is a target?
I mean the dread senses the power, and denies it. What difference would it make if it targeted someone else or no one?
You've got a game mechanic, that goes out of the way to say a power with no target can recieve no modifers. Seems like a blessing should be much harder to deny, that's what the rule is saying. So it makes no sense that you can pick any unit and deny it easier than a targeted witchfire.
Well the rules are more specific when it comes to when there is an actual hostile target for the power, in that to do what you're describing requires having a psychic hood.
Blessings will be still hard to counter, only one army has the ability to reroll and they still need 6s and the equivalent 6s for sucesses. Especially due to the summoning stuff, would make sense the anti-daemon army would have a better shot of stopping that.
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Post by: grendel083
WrentheFaceless wrote:Well the rules are more specific when it comes to when there is an actual hostile target for the power, in that to do what you're describing requires having a psychic hood.
Yes, a Pyschic hood is required to deny over a 12" distance.
Yet you want a model to potentially deny from across the board, without a hood? Even fluff this makes no sense. Automatically Appended Next Post: But Blessing isn't limited to Daemons, and we're talking about more than just summoning. This has far wider implications, and not just for Grey Knights.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
grendel083 wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:Well the rules are more specific when it comes to when there is an actual hostile target for the power, in that to do what you're describing requires having a psychic hood.
Yes, a Pyschic hood is required to deny over a 12" distance.
Yet you want a model to potentially deny from across the board, without a hood? Even fluff this makes no sense.
There is no distance requirement to deny a blessing, at all. How does the power being rejected for no reason at all after a successful cast make any sense in the fluff either?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
But Blessing isn't limited to Daemons, and we're talking about more than just summoning. This has far wider implications, and not just for Grey Knights.
Grey Knights are the only....grey area on this so to speak as theirs isnt a modifier + or -, its a reroll. The rule is to strictly affirm that 6's are what you need to deny blessings, but it doesnt mention at all rerolls.
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Post by: IndigoJack
grendel083 wrote:I'm saying I'm choosing "no unit" rather than "that unit".
That's not such a stretch.
Your ignoring the whole step, we're ignoring part of it. How is ours any less of a stretch?
And the deny rule works perfectly well with no unit nominated.
Not even what we're arguing here.
Yours invents a rule of "pick whatever unit you like".
It's also clearly against the intent of the rule. The fact it says you can add "no modifiers" is clear you're not suppose to be adding things to it.
Then you're suggesting the technicality of a "re-roll isn't a modifier". You're inventing a rule, to abuse the system!
No invention required! We're clearly both ignoring parts of the steps to DtW, you're just ignoring more than us. I have added no words to what I outlined above, just removed the part that cause a contradiction.
Also, a re-roll has never been classified as a modifier. In fact, rules for modifying dice rolls are given on pg 11. Note, re-roll is not present. Do you also think that you shouldn't re-roll snap shots? Because pg. 33 says snap shots can't be modified (except under certain circumstances). So guide, prescience, and twin-linking shouldn't work for snap shots?
Your straw man argument that were wrong because we're trying to abuse the system isn't helping your case at all. Like I showed above, we are literally removing less of the rule than you to make it work.
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Post by: grendel083
WrentheFaceless wrote:Grey Knights are the only....grey area on this so to speak as theirs isnt a modifier + or -, its a reroll. The rule is to strictly affirm that 6's are what you need to deny blessings, but it doesnt mention at all rerolls.
It's the only one I can think of, there could well be others. And there likely will be in the future.
It's still a boost that could otherwise make it more efficient that denying a targeted power. To my mind that most certainly goes aginst the intent of the rule.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
grendel083 wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:Grey Knights are the only....grey area on this so to speak as theirs isnt a modifier + or -, its a reroll. The rule is to strictly affirm that 6's are what you need to deny blessings, but it doesnt mention at all rerolls.
It's the only one I can think of, there could well be others. And there likely will be in the future.
It's still a boost that could otherwise make it more efficient that denying a targeted power. To my mind that most certainly goes aginst the intent of the rule.
Even with rerolls, denying a blessing will still be hard, which is the intent of the rule. Rolling 6s even with rerolls is still not great.
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Post by: DeathReaper
WrentheFaceless wrote: grendel083 wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:Grey Knights are the only....grey area on this so to speak as theirs isnt a modifier + or -, its a reroll. The rule is to strictly affirm that 6's are what you need to deny blessings, but it doesnt mention at all rerolls.
It's the only one I can think of, there could well be others. And there likely will be in the future.
It's still a boost that could otherwise make it more efficient that denying a targeted power. To my mind that most certainly goes aginst the intent of the rule.
Even with rerolls, denying a blessing will still be hard, which is the intent of the rule. Rolling 6s even with rerolls is still not great.
But it can be attempted by every army, unlike last edition
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Post by: grendel083
IndigoJack wrote:Your ignoring the whole step, we're ignoring part of it. How is ours any less of a stretch?
I'm not talking about changing less of the actual number of letters.
The lack of a comma can have a huge effect on a sentence. I'm sure your familiar with the example of eating Grandma?
Your suggestion is a much larger change to the rule than mine. You litterally are inventing a rule to pick whatever unit you wish. Which suddenly leads to other effects happening, like an Improved Aegis kicking in that the rule never allowed.
I'm accepting that you can't pick a unit, so I don't.
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Post by: Zimko
As being discussed in the other thread, I believe Kharn's rule would be applied if you could choose him as a target... thus an army with Kharn in it is as bad is an army with Runes of Warding from 5th edition in it.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Kharns rule is a modifier, it changes the number required to be rolled. Its strictly not allowed
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Post by: IndigoJack
grendel083 wrote: IndigoJack wrote:Your ignoring the whole step, we're ignoring part of it. How is ours any less of a stretch?
I'm not talking about changing less of the actual number of letters.
The lack of a comma can have a huge effect on a sentence. I'm sure your familiar with the example of eating Grandma?
Your suggestion is a much larger change to the rule than mine. You litterally are inventing a rule to pick whatever unit you wish. Which suddenly leads to other effects happening, like an Improved Aegis kicking in that the rule never allowed.
I'm accepting that you can't pick a unit, so I don't.
Again the rule says choose one unit that was the target... what you're saying is, don't choose a unit, what I'm saying is, just choose a unit, because the rules say you can still deny even if none of your units were the target. Again, not an invention, only omitting the part of the rule that creates a contradiction. You're going one step further, and omitting more of the rule to prevent abuse. Again, why would it say you can't modify DtW rolls against powers that don't target a unit, if only units can modify DtW rolls? There is no wargear in the game that modifies your DtW roll. Only that of a unit.
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Post by: rigeld2
IndigoJack wrote:There is no wargear in the game that modifies your DtW roll. Only that of a unit.
Currently. They're possibly future-proofing. They've done it before.
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Post by: IndigoJack
rigeld2 wrote: IndigoJack wrote:There is no wargear in the game that modifies your DtW roll. Only that of a unit.
Currently. They're possibly future-proofing. They've done it before.
They could be, but there are no powers that target "you", so why would a DtW roll be needed. If it was to nullify powers that don't target you, the modifier would be useless unless it said that it modifies powers even if they don't target you. And if it said that, again, why does the book say that no modifiers can used?
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Post by: rigeld2
IndigoJack wrote:rigeld2 wrote: IndigoJack wrote:There is no wargear in the game that modifies your DtW roll. Only that of a unit.
Currently. They're possibly future-proofing. They've done it before.
They could be, but there are no powers that target "you", so why would a DtW roll be needed. If it was to nullify powers that don't target you, the modifier would be useless unless it said that it modifies powers even if they don't target you. And if it said that, again, why does the book say that no modifiers can used?
Army wide special rule that gives you +1 on all DtW rolls. Would benefit when you're being targeted, but since they don't want that style of modifier helping you deny blessings, they wrote it out.
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Post by: grendel083
It does indeed.
what you're saying is, don't choose a unit,
I'm saying you can't. You admit that too. There is no valid unit to pick. I'm accepting that and moving on to the next step. You wish to invent a rule allowing you pick any unit you wish.
what I'm saying is, just choose a unit,
ANY unit, whichever you like. That's a huge change in the rule, allowing bonuses you should not be entitled to.
because the rules say you can still deny even if none of your units were the target.
And that works fine without a valid unit chosen.
Again, not an invention, only omitting the part of the rule that creates a contradiction.
Oh it's an invention. From targeted unit to whatever unit you want is a HUGE leap. You can try and claim you're changing one little word, but it's a big change, a big invention.
You're going one step further, and omitting more of the rule to prevent abuse.
I'm moving on from a step that can't be completed. I'm glad you acknowlege your proposal as abuse though. I don't see avoiding inventions of rules to avoid this as a bad thing.
Again, why would it say you can't modify DtW rolls against powers that don't target a unit, if only units can modify DtW rolls? There is no wargear in the game that modifies your DtW roll. Only that of a unit.
I said "potentially". If a unit has no Psyker, no rules... it's denying on a 6+ when targeted. You're invented rule allows for a better chance at denying than that.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
You cant move on to the next step if you dont pick a unit, the first step is pick a unit. Where this breaks down is it doesnt give you permission to not pick a unit, or say what unit you can pick if you do have to pick a unit to DTW a power that doesnt target any of your units
Deciding a unit to pick is as much as making up of a rule as picking no unit. It doesnt say to do one or the other, it doesnt say either.
Picking no unit is inventing a rule.
PIcking whatever unit is inventing a rule.
At this point its a HIWP
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Post by: grendel083
WrentheFaceless wrote:You cant move on to the next step if you dont pick a unit, the first step is pick a unit. Where this breaks down is it doesnt give you permission to not pick a unit, or say what unit you can pick if you do have to pick a unit to DTW a power that doesnt target any of your units
Yes you can't pick a valid unit.
We've all accepted that.
Since the step can't be completed, move on?
Invent a rule to pick any unit?
Invent a rule to auto deny?
Yes I'm suggesting breaking a rule. The path of least resistance so to speak.
When given the choice of breaking a rule that can't be completed by moving on or inventing a rule open to abuse that gives a benefit that should not be given, I think the choice is clear.
Or we follow RaW and the game stops.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
grendel083 wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:You cant move on to the next step if you dont pick a unit, the first step is pick a unit. Where this breaks down is it doesnt give you permission to not pick a unit, or say what unit you can pick if you do have to pick a unit to DTW a power that doesnt target any of your units
Yes you can't pick a valid unit.
We've all accepted that.
Since the step can't be completed, move on?
Invent a rule to pick any unit?
Invent a rule to auto deny?
Yes I'm suggesting breaking a rule. The path of least resistance so to speak.
When given the choice of breaking a rule that can't be completed by moving on or inventing a rule open to abuse that gives a benefit that should not be given, I think the choice is clear.
Or we follow RaW and the game stops.
Well we dont know if the benefit was intended to be given to those types of DTW as opposed to normal DTW that targets a hostile.
I would argue your rule breaking is intended to give you an unfair advantage against me by denying me from using an ability I have.
The choice is not clear
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Post by: grendel083
WrentheFaceless wrote:Well we dont know if the benefit was intended to be given to those types of DTW as opposed to normal DTW that targets a hostile.
I would argue your rule breaking is intended to give you an unfair advantage against me by denying me from using an ability I have.
The choice is not clear
Well it's clearly not intended, being as no rule ever says to pick a unit other than those targeted.
You could claim it was intended to break, as that's what was actually written.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
grendel083 wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:Well we dont know if the benefit was intended to be given to those types of DTW as opposed to normal DTW that targets a hostile.
I would argue your rule breaking is intended to give you an unfair advantage against me by denying me from using an ability I have.
The choice is not clear
Well it's clearly not intended, being as no rule ever says to pick a unit other than those targeted.
You could claim it was intended to break, as that's what was actually written.
Its not clear its intended, if it was clear this argument wouldnt exist.
No rule states you pick no unit.
It was written how it was written, which prompted the argument.
I'm claiming it was intended you choose a unit, as the "No modifiers allowed" clause implies that one had already been chosen
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Post by: grendel083
So unitl it's FAQ'd will you house rule the "path of least resistance" or the option that benefits only one army currently?
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
grendel083 wrote:So unitl it's FAQ'd will you house rule the "path of least resistance" or the option that benefits only one army currently?
Id houserule it what I think it means until its clarified.
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Post by: Warmonger2757
Just to add to this:
The Aegis is a defensive item. Seems pretty cut and dry to me: if you aren't being targetted, you don't get to use the item to defend yourself.
DTW for a blessing would be an offensive action as you're attacking a blessing or conjuration your opponent is casting. I can see why nominating a psyker to deny the witch makes sense as SOMEONE in your army is denying the witch. Unfortunately they deliberately said no modifiers apply so that further complicates the interpretation. But then if you're not getting targetted, you can't use the Aegis to help defend yourself.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Is it? making sure a friendly power not going off seems fairly deffensive to me
Nor does the FAQ says the aegis is for defensive DTW either
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Post by: katana100
Just to get back to orginal argument I think that you get to re-roll jjust the failed dice as they are the rolls and aegis says roll 
So for those that would like a fluff reason for not using a unit to deny a blessing someone in the enemy army willpower intentionally or unintentionally squashed the power or the blessing psyker got distracted in some manner.
Must admit im of the opinion that you dont select a unit what
1. Enemy psker manifests blessing power
2. 'if none of your units was the target of the enemies psychic power you can still attempt to deny, follow same process.
3. Select one of your units that was a target... Well there aint one but ive been told to follow process and we are at this point for thst reason so im just going to carry on cus im allowed to deny
4. Roll test
Can underatand why you would do it the other way just how we all played it without thinking so far at LGS
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Post by: Fachxphyre
grendel083 wrote:So unitl it's FAQ'd will you house rule the "path of least resistance" or the option that benefits only one army currently?
Are you seriously suggesting that because only GK get The Aegis, that it should be limited in a manner that is not suggested either in the BRB or the brand new FAQ? To me, that reeks of bias and wishful thinking. I get that the wording regarding denying blessings is ambiguous at best, but to state that when denying a blessing NO unit is doing the denying makes zero sense to me. We already have a mechanic in place to indicate what happens when the psyker manifesting a blessing loses focus or otherwise messes things up . . . to indicate that some mysterious force not represented by the opposing forces on the table is making an effort to deny the witch runs counter to common sense. Why wouldn't an army renowned throughout the fluff as being the best and purest psykers humanity has to offer have greater abilities to disrupt opposing psykers (especially demons using abilities that don't target them, such as summoning, etc)?
Also, as we've seen quite clearly illustrated by the case of Tyranids and SitW, past functionalities and interactions between abilities and enemy psyker powers are not a valid indication of how they ought to work in 7ed. Appealing to the "defensive" nature of the previous incarnation of The Aegis is facile at best.
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Post by: grendel083
 Fachxphyre wrote: grendel083 wrote:So unitl it's FAQ'd will you house rule the "path of least resistance" or the option that benefits only one army currently?
Are you seriously suggesting that because only GK get The Aegis, that it should be limited in a manner that is not suggested either in the BRB or the brand new FAQ? To me, that reeks of bias and wishful thinking.
It was friendly banter and a playful jibe at someone who had already admitted to being biased in favour of Grey Knights. Unless you followed the thread very closely I could see how you'd miss that. 
Why wouldn't an army renowned throughout the fluff as being the best and purest psykers humanity has to offer have greater abilities to disrupt opposing psykers
Yes, the best humanity has to offer. Yet this proposal would make them better than anyone else.
Tyranids should be far better at disrupting powers.
Eldar are far better Psykers, they can't do anything similiar.
Chaos? They are the warp.
Traitor marines with 10,000 years more experience?
If you read the fluff Orks are the most Psychic race in the galaxy! Their very thoughts become reallity.
Really Humanity is pretty far down the food chain in terms of Psychic ability. But we're getting far to deep into fluff now.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
grendel083 wrote:
If you read the fluff Orks are the most Psychic race in the galaxy! Their very thoughts become reallity.
So you're telling me Orks think about summoning Daemons?
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Post by: grendel083
WrentheFaceless wrote: grendel083 wrote:
If you read the fluff Orks are the most Psychic race in the galaxy! Their very thoughts become reallity.
So you're telling me Orks think about summoning Daemons?
Ha! No, basically all Orks generate Psychic energy.
This energy can do many things, the most noticible is making their technology work.
Most Ork inventions don't actually work. But if an Ork believes it does, it will.
If he believes his gun still has bullets left, it will still fire (even if empty).
Orks really have the best fluff
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Post by: Happyjew
grendel083 wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote: grendel083 wrote:
If you read the fluff Orks are the most Psychic race in the galaxy! Their very thoughts become reallity.
So you're telling me Orks think about summoning Daemons?
Ha! No, basically all Orks generate Psychic energy.
This energy can do many things, the most noticible is making their technology work.
Most Ork inventions don't actually work. But if an Ork believes it does, it will.
If he believes his gun still has bullets left, it will still fire (even if empty).
Orks really have the best fluff
Of course this is all humie propaganda. I mean what is the range on this "ability" can it affect things halfway across the galaxy? For example, Most Orks know about good ol' Yarrick. When he is on Terra, since there are no Orks around does his Power Klaw just stop functioning?
But I digress, we are getting more into General/Background and less rules.
BACK TO THE TOPIC ON HAND!!! (and yes that is me yelling).
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Well as for the rules
RAW doesnt work, its not clarified
Opinions on RAI differ, or how we would play
Which more of the general question: Who denies blessings, do you pick a unit to deny a blessing? Does the big fleshy hand in the sky that rolls those magical cubes deny? No one, the warp just doesnt like you?
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Post by: grendel083
But but but!
I haven't even gotten to the part where Gork and Mork beat up Poppa Nurgle. Best story ever! 
(and Yarrak's fluff says they re-wired that claw to make it work...)
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Post by: Cytharai
WrentheFaceless wrote:
Which more of the general question: Who denies blessings, do you pick a unit to deny a blessing? Does the big fleshy hand in the sky that rolls those magical cubes deny? No one, the warp just doesnt like you?
Well, considering Tau (even without a talisman) can make a DtW roll, I would imagine it would be the warp just doesn't like you.
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Post by: adamsouza
Picking whatever unit you want to DTW is open to abuse, while picking no unit is not.
One of your units being resistant to harmful Pychic powers doesn't make the enemy army worse at buffing their own troops.
If none of your troops are targeted you get a roll none the less to try and deny.
Tying to cherry pick your Uber Specialized DTW unit to make your deny rolls is just cheeze.
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Post by: Fachxphyre
 adamsouza wrote:Picking whatever unit you want to DTW is open to abuse, while picking no unit is not.
One of your units being resistant to harmful Pychic powers doesn't make the enemy army worse at buffing their own troops.
If none of your troops are targeted you get a roll none the less to try and deny.
Tying to cherry pick your Uber Specialized DTW unit to make your deny rolls is just cheeze.
Ok, then riddle me this. Why do the FAQ entries for the Aegis and Reinforced Aegis deliberately remove the phrases related to the model being targeted? Contrast pages 21 and 35 of the GK codex with the new FAQ. Why else would the stipulation that a enemy psyker power be targeting the unit in question be removed, if this ability is not intended to now function against blessings and other powers not targeting GK units? The FAQ is quite unambiguous, and does not stipulate that the unit must be targeted in order for it to take effect. Additionally, your argument loses even more of its validity when you consider that there are already wargear items such as the psychic hood that explicitly allow an "Uber Specialized DTW unit" to make deny rolls.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
adamsouza wrote:Picking whatever unit you want to DTW is open to abuse, while picking no unit is not.
One of your units being resistant to harmful Pychic powers doesn't make the enemy army worse at buffing their own troops.
If none of your troops are targeted you get a roll none the less to try and deny.
Tying to cherry pick your Uber Specialized DTW unit to make your deny rolls is just cheeze.
Thats nice, the rules dont say that though
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Post by: Cytharai
Fachxphyre wrote:
...Why do the FAQ entries for the Aegis and Reinforced Aegis deliberately remove the phrases related to the model being targeted?...
Because the DtW bonus for the Aegis is specifically denied in the new rules "...apply no modifiers to your dice rolls", thus the old half paragraph would be superfluous.
To me it boils down to 1) Is the unit being targeted - " Reinforced Aegis: This unit can re-roll any failed Deny the Witch roll" and
2) If it's not being targeted, does it get to use a rule that isn't a -modifier- for DtW rolls on enemy Blessings.
Edit - Remembered the FAQ for The Aegis incorrectly, as it allows for re-rolls (just like Reinforced Aegis). So this means that if Reinforced Aegis grants re-rolls to DtW on Blessings, an army containing any GK with The Aegis can re-roll 1's for DtW on Blessings?
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Post by: Fachxphyre
Since a re-roll is not considered a modifier (read the relevant section of your BRB), there is no reason why The Aegis or Reinforced Aegis would not apply to DtW rolls against enemy blessings, UNLESS you are of the opinion that no unit is selected for making non-targeted DtW rolls, in which case I'm done wasting breath trying to argue that point.
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Post by: grendel083
You make it sound like the rule allow you to pick whatever unit you like.
The rules most definitely do not say that.
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Post by: IndigoJack
Nor does the rule make a stipulation if no unit is the target. The only thing you've provided to support your argument is that if you select no unit, you can't abuse the rule.
What were saying is that, according to how we understand the rules, that we may deny powers that we are not the target of by following the same steps outlined in DtW. Step one is select a unit that was targeted by the power. Since RAW that breaks the mechanic because there is a direct contradiction in the rules.
We feel like our interpretation is correct because of the following two pieces of evidence:
1) It says that no modifiers may be applied to DtW rolls when attempting to nullify powers that don't target one of your units. Since only units in the game have modifiers for the DtW rolls, why bother mentioning it if the player is the one making the DtW test? Sure they could be future proofing, but 3 of the 4 psychic super powers have already been released. Surely, at least one of them would have a piece of wargear or special rule that changes the players DtW roll (SitW would have been a great spot for this).
2) As a player, there are only three rolls you make for yourself. 1) the roll-off at the beginning of the game, 2) Seizing the initiative, 3) To see if the game ends. (I didn't include mission or deployment type as those could just as easily be given to you in a scenario). Every other roll you make as a player is to determine the outcome of something that a unit is doing or is being done to them. It has been this way since I started playing in 3rd edition.
Again, what your saying is that since you can't select a unit, you select none because the alternative is open to abuse. That's it That's all the evidence you've come up with so far. After that, you go on to claim that we're inventing new rules. What we are doing is no worse than what you are. We're simply removing part of the rule to make the mechanic work. You're removing even more to make the mechanic work, and prevent abuse.
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Post by: Cytharai
IndigoJack wrote:
1) It says that no modifiers may be applied to DtW rolls when attempting to nullify powers that don't target one of your units. Since only units in the game have modifiers for the DtW rolls, why bother mentioning it if the player is the one making the DtW test?
I could see, from how the rules for psychic hood are written, someone could try to use it for a DtW roll on a blessing cast within its range. Also, couldn't you view a DtW roll on an enemy blessing as you effecting an enemy unit (and not just a "player" roll)?
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
grendel083 wrote:You make it sound like the rule allow you to pick whatever unit you like.
The rules most definitely do not say that.
They do not say pick no unit either
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Post by: Zimko
You guys are arguing RAI which is futile and pointless.
Everyone agrees that RAW you can't DtW powers that don't target your units. Lets just stop it there and get back to the original point of this thread.
Assuming a power has targeted a model with Reinforced Aegis, can they reroll individual rolls or must they reroll the entire DtW test?
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Post by: grendel083
Just to add further confusion we have one part of the rules saying you may add no bonuses to (untargeted) Denies, another saying no modifiers.
I'd definitely class the Aegis as a bonus.
It's looking like this is the "snap shot" of the psychic phase, and you're really not suppose to have anything but a flat 6+.
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Post by: IndigoJack
 Cytharai wrote:
I could see, from how the rules for psychic hood are written, someone could try to use it for a DtW roll on a blessing cast within its range.
The psychic hood argument falls apart where it says, "...the wearer of the hood can attempt to Deny the Witch in their stead." as you can only deny enemy psychic powers. So since the hood only works when the targeted unit can DtW, and you can only deny enemy powers, you can't use a hood to deny blessings.
Also, couldn't you view a DtW roll on an enemy blessing as you effecting an enemy unit (and not just a "player" roll)?
That would still be me, as a player, affecting someone another unit. Which, since I've been playing, I've never seen in the game. To be fair, the psychic phase is something that's not been in the game for a long time, and I'm not even sure how it worked in 2nd. This is new waters for everybody and there are going to be lots of things that come up that don't have a precedent. Automatically Appended Next Post: grendel083 wrote:Just to add further confusion we have one part of the rules saying you may add no bonuses to (untargeted) Denies, another saying no modifiers.
I'd definitely class the Aegis as a bonus.
It's looking like this is the "snap shot" of the psychic phase, and you're really not suppose to have anything but a flat 6+.
First, where does it say no bonuses? I've not seen that anywhere. Second, what is a bonus, how is it defined in game? Modifiers are defined, bonuses are not. And if the aegis is the "snap shot" of the psychic phase, than re-rolls are definitely in, as you are allowed to re-roll snap shots. Seriously, the no re-roll argument hold absolutely no water.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
grendel083 wrote:Just to add further confusion we have one part of the rules saying you may add no bonuses to (untargeted) Denies, another saying no modifiers.
I'd definitely class the Aegis as a bonus.
It's looking like this is the "snap shot" of the psychic phase, and you're really not suppose to have anything but a flat 6+.
6+ is agreed upon that you need this in all cases, but you can reroll snap shots in that example
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Post by: grendel083
WrentheFaceless wrote:6+ is agreed upon that you need this in all cases, but you can reroll snap shots in that example
Ha! True, it wasn't the best comparison.
But would you say a re-roll definitely counts as a bonus?
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
grendel083 wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:6+ is agreed upon that you need this in all cases, but you can reroll snap shots in that example
Ha! True, it wasn't the best comparison.
But would you say a re-roll definitely counts as a bonus?
I would say its a bonus, and not a modifier
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Post by: grendel083
Oh it's definitely not a modifier, no argument there.
As they have used both terms in different parts it will be interesting to see if they go one way or the other when they get round to FAQ'ing the rulebook. If they go with "bonus" then it would put this part of the debate to rest.
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Post by: IndigoJack
Where does it say no bonuses? I've read and re-read the DtW section and saw nothing that said no bonuses, just no modifiers. Additionally, nowhere in the book is a bonus defined. So either it's sloppy rule writing, or sloppy rule reading.
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Post by: Cytharai
IndigoJack wrote:
Where does it say no bonuses? I've read and re-read the DtW section and saw nothing that said no bonuses, just no modifiers. Additionally, nowhere in the book is a bonus defined. So either it's sloppy rule writing, or sloppy rule reading.
Page 24, Manifesting Psychic Powers Sequence call-out box - step 4. Deny the Witch "...If the psychic power does not target an enemy unit, your opponent can still attempt to Deny the Witch, but will not be able to use any bonuses"
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Post by: grendel083
IndigoJack wrote:
Where does it say no bonuses? I've read and re-read the DtW section and saw nothing that said no bonuses, just no modifiers. Additionally, nowhere in the book is a bonus defined. So either it's sloppy rule writing, or sloppy rule reading.
I only have the iBook version of the rulebook, page 393 if that helps.
Early in the Psychic rules you have the section "Manfofesting Psychic Powers".
It's the "Manifesting Psychic Powers Sequence" - step 4 is Deny the Witch
"...but will not be able to use any bonuses".
Later on in the rules it instead says "modifiers".
And correct, bonuses is not defined in the rulebook, so you need to fall back on the actual meaning of the word. I personally think a re-roll is definitely a bonus.
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Post by: IndigoJack
Hooray for more inconsistent rule writing... I would say by bonus they meant modifier, as the paragraph right above it says, "Manifesting psychic powers can be summarised in five steps, as described below. Each step is explained in greater detail later in this seciton."
So it seems to me that if their is a conflict between the summary and the full rules on the next few pages, I'd say the full rules following the summary take precedent, since they are the part where it is "explained in greater detail."
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