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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 05:59:28
Subject: Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine
Midwest,United States
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So after showing up at my FLGS tonight and excitingly claiming that no one was going to cast psychic powers thanks to reinforced aegis, courtesy of the new GK FAQ, someone promptly  on my parade and told me I had interpreted the FAQ incorrectly. The way I understood it, was that dreadnoughts could re-roll parts of their DtW test and keep successes. So for a blessing, I would re-roll results of 1-5, keeping the 6s. My interpretation coming from the wording of aegis, which lets you re-roll results of 1. Clearly, I thought, reinforced aegis would be better that aegis. But I was informed that the wording stipulated that all of the dice must be re-rolled since to make a DtW test you make a DtW roll (of course, the words "Deny the Witch roll" are seen no where in the rulebook, just the FAQ). As you can imagine, this became a heated debate with lots of swearing and vows to never play against each other if we were going to play it according to our own interpretations. Of course, no agreement was ever reached. So now I put it to you dakka, which is the correct interpretation and why?
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~5000+ pts (95% Deathwing )
~1500 pts
"Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position. But certainty is an absurd one" - Voltaire
"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." -Einstein |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 06:16:03
Subject: Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
Newcastle, NSW ,Australia
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You are correct, they are wrong. Each individual result of 6+ is a successful deny. Any that are less than 6 are failed and can be re-rolled. It's worth noting that dread noughts are ML1 so deny the witch against powers that target you are successful on a roll of 5
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 06:28:08
Subject: Re:Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu
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You have to re-roll the lot because the individual results are irrelevant. For example if you are trying to deny a WC3 power and roll 2 6's, you have still failed the DTW roll.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 06:38:33
Subject: Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine
Midwest,United States
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Actually, you failed the DtW test. There is no such thing in the rulebook as a DtW roll. But with a little work, we can extrapolate what a DtW roll might be. Under DtW, when talking about modifiers, it mentions that they modify "each individual roll", implying that DtW is made up of a collection of rolls. Additionally, when talking about denying blessings specifically, it says , "you will require rolls of 6 to nullify warp charge points." From here you can extrapolate that rolls of 6s are successful, and anything else is a failure. From here, it seems that a DtW test is made up of multiple rolls, and that re-rolling a failed roll is only the failed parts of the DtW test. If someone can prove this is wrong, I'm all for hearing it. Specific examples would be helpful!
EDIT: To be clear, the problem specifically stems from what a DtW roll is. Is a DtW roll everything you roll for the DtW test? Or is a role each dice that constitutes a DtW test?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/28 06:43:48
~5000+ pts (95% Deathwing )
~1500 pts
"Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position. But certainty is an absurd one" - Voltaire
"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." -Einstein |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 06:41:39
Subject: Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
Newcastle, NSW ,Australia
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IndigoJack wrote:Actually, you failed the DtW test. There is no such thing in the rulebook as a DtW roll. But with a little work, we can extrapolate what a DtW roll might be. Under DtW, when talking about modifiers, it mentions that they modify "each individual roll", implying that DtW is made up of a collection of rolls. Additionally, when talking about denying blessings specifically, it says , "you will require rolls of 6 to nullify warp charge points." From here you can extrapolate that rolls of 6s are successful, and anything else is a failure. From here, it seems that a DtW test is made up of multiple rolls, and that re-rolling a failed roll is only the failed parts of the DtW test. If someone can prove this is wrong, I'm all for hearing it. Specific examples would be helpful!
For each individual result of 6+, one Warp Charge point has been successfully nullified. If the total number of nullified Warp Charge points is equal to or greater than the number of harnessed Warp Charge points, the Deny the Witch test has been passed and the psychic power does not manifest.
Or we could just read this part lol
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 06:45:04
Subject: Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Lurking Gaunt
US
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IXLoiero95XI wrote:You are correct, they are wrong. Each individual result of 6+ is a successful deny. Any that are less than 6 are failed and can be re-rolled. It's worth noting that dread noughts are ML1 so deny the witch against powers that target you are successful on a roll of 5
I absolutely agree. If you like, you could use TL weaponry as a comparison. When re-rolling failed to-hit rolls, you do not re-roll the successful to-hit dice along with the failures. Likewise, when re-rolling failed dice for Deny the Witch, you wouldn't re-roll the successes as well as the failures.
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'Nids uber alles. And GK I guess . . . them too.
2k 'Nids
2k GK |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 06:45:48
Subject: Re:Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
Newcastle, NSW ,Australia
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Tonberry7 wrote:You have to re-roll the lot because the individual results are irrelevant. For example if you are trying to deny a WC3 power and roll 2 6's, you have still failed the DTW roll.
Wrong. For one, you can't attempt to deny the witch unless you spend enough points to match that of your opponent. And two, it's a DTW test, that you have failed, not roll.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/28 06:46:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 06:56:04
Subject: Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant
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It seems pretty straight forward in the new FAQ, have yall read it yet?
"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls results of 1 when making Deny the Witch tests." Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh wait, I misread your post. Disregard.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/28 06:57:16
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 07:15:44
Subject: Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I voted for re-rolling all, but upon seeing the arguments here, and noting the fact that the BRB does distinguish between a DtW roll, and a DtW test. The fact that aegis specifies DtW rolls means each die that fails, not the entire test. Cause if it meant you to re-roll the entire test, that is what it would say.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 07:43:05
Subject: Re:Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu
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IXLoiero95XI wrote: Tonberry7 wrote:You have to re-roll the lot because the individual results are irrelevant. For example if you are trying to deny a WC3 power and roll 2 6's, you have still failed the DTW roll.
Wrong. For one, you can't attempt to deny the witch unless you spend enough points to match that of your opponent. And two, it's a DTW test, that you have failed, not roll.
Wrong. For one, I never claimed that you can DTW by spending less points than that of your opponents power. And two, the results of the individual rolls for the DTW test aren't actually defined as passes or fails.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 07:49:16
Subject: Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
Newcastle, NSW ,Australia
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"For each individual result of 6+, one Warp Charge point has been successfully nullified. If the total number of nullified Warp Charge points is equal to or greater than the number of harnessed Warp Charge points, the Deny the Witch test has been passed and the psychic power does not manifest. " Automatically Appended Next Post: Notice 'successfully'
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/28 07:49:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 16:27:39
Subject: Re:Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu
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I didn't notice 'pass' or 'fail'. Surely you just roll the lot and then if you don't nullify enough charges you've failed the roll. Automatically Appended Next Post: On a related note, can you use the Aegis if the power isn't targetting the unit with it? Like for a blessing?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/28 16:29:14
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 16:37:22
Subject: Re:Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine
Midwest,United States
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Tonberry7 wrote:I didn't notice 'pass' or 'fail'. Surely you just roll the lot and then if you don't nullify enough charges you've failed the roll.
No, as already stated, you failed the test, not the roll. If you have some evidence that suggests they're the same thing, please share it.
On a related note, can you use the Aegis if the power isn't targetting the unit with it? Like for a blessing?
Pg. 26, "If none of your units were the target of the enemy's psychic power (the power in question might be a blessing, a conjuration, or some other power that only affects the Psyker's own troops), you can still attempt to Deny the Witch. To do so, follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls- you will require rolls of 6 to nullify Warp Charge points."
This is what makes my interpretation so powerful. I can pretty much shutdown my opponent's psychic phase. There has yet to be a clear argument against it though, so I feel like my interpretation is correct.
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~5000+ pts (95% Deathwing )
~1500 pts
"Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position. But certainty is an absurd one" - Voltaire
"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." -Einstein |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 16:43:20
Subject: Re:Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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The Hive Mind
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IndigoJack wrote:This is what makes my interpretation so powerful. I can pretty much shutdown my opponent's psychic phase. There has yet to be a clear argument against it though, so I feel like my interpretation is correct.
Except you're not allowed to apply any bonuses when denying something that didn't target you.
Re-rolling is a bonus.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 16:45:20
Subject: Re:Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine
Midwest,United States
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rigeld2 wrote: IndigoJack wrote:This is what makes my interpretation so powerful. I can pretty much shutdown my opponent's psychic phase. There has yet to be a clear argument against it though, so I feel like my interpretation is correct.
Except you're not allowed to apply any bonuses when denying something that didn't target you.
Re-rolling is a bonus.
The FAQ says, "This unit can re-roll any (emphasis mine) Deny the Witch roll." Where have re-rolls ever been stated as a bonus?
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~5000+ pts (95% Deathwing )
~1500 pts
"Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position. But certainty is an absurd one" - Voltaire
"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." -Einstein |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 16:51:15
Subject: Re:Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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The Hive Mind
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IndigoJack wrote:rigeld2 wrote: IndigoJack wrote:This is what makes my interpretation so powerful. I can pretty much shutdown my opponent's psychic phase. There has yet to be a clear argument against it though, so I feel like my interpretation is correct.
Except you're not allowed to apply any bonuses when denying something that didn't target you.
Re-rolling is a bonus.
The FAQ says, "This unit can re-roll any (emphasis mine) Deny the Witch roll." Where have re-rolls ever been stated as a bonus?
First question: Is bonus defined anywhere in the BRB?
Second question: Since it's not, how do you define it?
Third question: Since the obvious answer to #2 is "normal English" how is not not a bonus?
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 16:54:35
Subject: Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
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Rerolls are not a bonus lol? You don't add or subtract them from a die roll.
If that were true you could never use an aegis lol.
You only re roll failed dice. The Reinforced says re roll any failed roll not test.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/28 16:59:40
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 16:55:50
Subject: Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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The Hive Mind
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Mythra wrote:Rerolls are not a bonus lol? You don't add or subtract them from a die roll.
Things that add or subtract are defined in the game as modifiers. lol.
If that were true you could never use an aegis lol.
Except when you're allowed to apply bonuses - like, I don't know - when you're targeted by a power? lol.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 16:58:21
Subject: Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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rigeld2 wrote: Mythra wrote:Rerolls are not a bonus lol? You don't add or subtract them from a die roll.
Things that add or subtract are defined in the game as modifiers. lol.
If that were true you could never use an aegis lol.
Except when you're allowed to apply bonuses - like, I don't know - when you're targeted by a power? lol.
Does the Blessing DTW paragraph state no modifiers, no bonuses, or no modifiers or bonuses?
If it states no modifiers only, a reroll is not a modifier
As for the rest of the argument I'd say reroll only rolls that failed, even if the DTW in general fails, a roll of 6 is still a 'success" which wouldnt warrant a reroll.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/28 16:59:40
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 17:02:21
Subject: Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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The Hive Mind
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WrentheFaceless wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Mythra wrote:Rerolls are not a bonus lol? You don't add or subtract them from a die roll.
Things that add or subtract are defined in the game as modifiers. lol.
If that were true you could never use an aegis lol.
Except when you're allowed to apply bonuses - like, I don't know - when you're targeted by a power? lol.
Does the Blessing DTW paragraph state no modifiers, no bonuses, or no modifiers or bonuses?
If it states no modifiers only, a reroll is not a modifier
As for the rest of the argument I'd say reroll only rolls that failed, even if the DTW in general fails, a roll of 6 is still a 'success" which wouldnt warrant a reroll.
It's been quoted to say no bonuses. I know a reroll isn't a modifier - I've never called it one.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 17:03:00
Subject: Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
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Why would you make it work differently than an aegis anyhow? Reroll 1s and reinforced reroll 1-5s.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/28 17:03:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 17:03:37
Subject: Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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The Hive Mind
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Mythra wrote:Why would you make it work differently than an aegis anyhow? Reroll 1s and reinforced reroll 2-5s.
I'm not. I'm asserting that you can do that - but only against powers that are targeting you. Not your opponent's blessings.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 17:05:19
Subject: Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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rigeld2 wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Mythra wrote:Rerolls are not a bonus lol? You don't add or subtract them from a die roll.
Things that add or subtract are defined in the game as modifiers. lol.
If that were true you could never use an aegis lol.
Except when you're allowed to apply bonuses - like, I don't know - when you're targeted by a power? lol.
Does the Blessing DTW paragraph state no modifiers, no bonuses, or no modifiers or bonuses?
If it states no modifiers only, a reroll is not a modifier
As for the rest of the argument I'd say reroll only rolls that failed, even if the DTW in general fails, a roll of 6 is still a 'success" which wouldnt warrant a reroll.
It's been quoted to say no bonuses. I know a reroll isn't a modifier - I've never called it one.
The quote of the paragraph from indigo jack only states no modifiers, where does it state no bonuses?
IndigoJack wrote:
Pg. 26, "If none of your units were the target of the enemy's psychic power (the power in question might be a blessing, a conjuration, or some other power that only affects the Psyker's own troops), you can still attempt to Deny the Witch. To do so, follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls- you will require rolls of 6 to nullify Warp Charge points."
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/28 17:06:15
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 17:07:24
Subject: Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
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In the rule it does say re roll ANY DtW roll not just blessings or Maledictions. A blessing being canceled is still a DtW roll.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 17:11:05
Subject: Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Rampaging Carnifex
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The FAQ rule.
'Reinforced Aegis: This unit can re-roll any failed Deny the Witch roll.'
RAW... *sigh*... The unit doesn't make a Deny the Witch roll, therefore this rule is useless.
HIWPI: The rule only comes into effect when the unit with it is targeted by a power and you try to DtW that power (thus making it kind of like the unit is rolling the DtW... even though in the rules it is not, YOU are)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 17:11:25
Subject: Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Regular Dakkanaut
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IndigoJack wrote:Actually, you failed the DtW test. There is no such thing in the rulebook as a DtW roll. But with a little work, we can extrapolate what a DtW roll might be. Under DtW, when talking about modifiers, it mentions that they modify "each individual roll", implying that DtW is made up of a collection of rolls. Additionally, when talking about denying blessings specifically, it says , "you will require rolls of 6 to nullify warp charge points." From here you can extrapolate that rolls of 6s are successful, and anything else is a failure. From here, it seems that a DtW test is made up of multiple rolls, and that re-rolling a failed roll is only the failed parts of the DtW test. If someone can prove this is wrong, I'm all for hearing it. Specific examples would be helpful!
EDIT: To be clear, the problem specifically stems from what a DtW roll is. Is a DtW roll everything you roll for the DtW test? Or is a role each dice that constitutes a DtW test?
Well if DtW is a test we can extrapolate that it must act like a characteristic test or a leadership test. Both of which say to roll a D6 and 2D6 respectively. So a DtW test is a XD6 roll where X is the number of Warp Charge points.
Is a leadership roll everything you roll for the leadership test? or is a roll each dice that constitutes a Leadership test?
And on page 11 under Re-roll if you re-roll a 2D6 or a 3D6 (we can extrapolate this to include XD6) roll you must re-roll all of the dice not just some of them, unless the rules specify otherwise. Of course that last part is what is in question, But If you rolled 2D6 and got higher than your leadership you failed the leadership test. If you get to re-roll your failed leadership roll you have to re-roll all the dice. If you didn't roll enough 6+ to deny a power you failed the DtW test, If you get to re-roll your DtW roll you have to re-roll all the dice.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 17:16:30
Subject: Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine
Midwest,United States
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No, you can't extrapolate that at all. Any time you roll an xd6, you use the sum of the numbers. A DtW test is different, as each roll must be a 6+ to be successful, and the test is passed if you successfully nullify your opponents warp charges.
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~5000+ pts (95% Deathwing )
~1500 pts
"Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position. But certainty is an absurd one" - Voltaire
"You have to learn the rules of the game. And then you have to play better than anyone else." -Einstein |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 17:19:25
Subject: Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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Zimko wrote:The FAQ rule.
' Reinforced Aegis: This unit can re-roll any failed Deny the Witch roll.'
RAW... *sigh*... The unit doesn't make a Deny the Witch roll, therefore this rule is useless.
HIWPI: The rule only comes into effect when the unit with it is targeted by a power and you try to DtW that power (thus making it kind of like the unit is rolling the DtW... even though in the rules it is not, YOU are)
Then RAW the +1 for being a psyker, +1 for a higher level psyker +1 adamantum will isnt valid since the "Unit" isnt making the DTW thus no unit modifiers can be added to a DTW roll, if you're reading it that way. Though if thats your interpretation its not really RAW is it..?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 17:19:33
Subject: Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Rampaging Carnifex
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'Reinforced Aegis: This unit can re-roll any failed Deny the Witch roll.'
What is a failed or successful Deny the Witch roll? The BRB doesn't define this.
RAW: This rule is stupid
HIWPI: Each individual roll when rolling for DtW can be determined as a success or failure by whether or not it nullified a warp charge... therefore each roll can be re-rolled no matter how many dice you used for the overall DtW test.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/05/28 17:20:44
Subject: Reinforced Aegis and DtW
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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Zimko wrote:'Reinforced Aegis: This unit can re-roll any failed Deny the Witch roll.'
What is a failed or successful Deny the Witch roll? The BRB doesn't define this.
RAW: This rule is stupid
HIWPI: Each individual roll when rolling for DtW can be determined as a success or failure by whether or not it nullified a warp charge... therefore each roll can be re-rolled no matter how many dice you used for the overall DtW test.
Yes it does? A successful DTW roll is defined as enough qualifying rolls to negate your opponents successes for casting the power
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