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 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Zimko wrote:
The FAQ rule.

'Reinforced Aegis: This unit can re-roll any failed Deny the Witch roll.'

RAW... *sigh*... The unit doesn't make a Deny the Witch roll, therefore this rule is useless.

HIWPI: The rule only comes into effect when the unit with it is targeted by a power and you try to DtW that power (thus making it kind of like the unit is rolling the DtW... even though in the rules it is not, YOU are)

Then RAW the +1 for being a psyker, +1 for a higher level psyker +1 adamantum will isnt valid since the "Unit" isnt making the DTW thus no unit modifiers can be added to a DTW roll, if you're reading it that way. Though if thats your interpretation its not really RAW is it..?

I stand corrected, it would imply that the unit makes a DtW test when it is targeted. Since that is the case, then it is clear that the Aegis only applies when the unit that has the Aegis is targeted. Therefore it can't be used to deny blessings since the unit with the Aegis is not the unit making the DtW test.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Zimko wrote:
'Reinforced Aegis: This unit can re-roll any failed Deny the Witch roll.'

What is a failed or successful Deny the Witch roll? The BRB doesn't define this.

RAW: This rule is stupid

HIWPI: Each individual roll when rolling for DtW can be determined as a success or failure by whether or not it nullified a warp charge... therefore each roll can be re-rolled no matter how many dice you used for the overall DtW test.

Yes it does? A successful DTW roll is defined as enough qualifying rolls to negate your opponents successes for casting the power

You're assuming a DtW roll = a DtW test. It is a fair assumption, and given the new nature of how DtW works (in that no other test is similar in nature to DtW) I'd be willing to agree for HIWPI purposes.

Zimko wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Zimko wrote:
The FAQ rule.

'Reinforced Aegis: This unit can re-roll any failed Deny the Witch roll.'

RAW... *sigh*... The unit doesn't make a Deny the Witch roll, therefore this rule is useless.

HIWPI: The rule only comes into effect when the unit with it is targeted by a power and you try to DtW that power (thus making it kind of like the unit is rolling the DtW... even though in the rules it is not, YOU are)

Then RAW the +1 for being a psyker, +1 for a higher level psyker +1 adamantum will isnt valid since the "Unit" isnt making the DTW thus no unit modifiers can be added to a DTW roll, if you're reading it that way. Though if thats your interpretation its not really RAW is it..?

I stand corrected, it would imply that the unit makes a DtW test when it is targeted. Since that is the case, then it is clear that the Aegis only applies when the unit that has the Aegis is targeted. Therefore it can't be used to deny blessings since the unit with the Aegis is not the unit making the DtW test.

You can make a DtW test even if you're not targeted. See where I quoted the text earlier.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Zimko wrote:
'Reinforced Aegis: This unit can re-roll any failed Deny the Witch roll.'

What is a failed or successful Deny the Witch roll? The BRB doesn't define this.

RAW: This rule is stupid

HIWPI: Each individual roll when rolling for DtW can be determined as a success or failure by whether or not it nullified a warp charge... therefore each roll can be re-rolled no matter how many dice you used for the overall DtW test.

Yes it does? A successful DTW roll is defined as enough qualifying rolls to negate your opponents successes for casting the power

You're assuming a DtW roll = a DtW test. It is a fair assumption, and given the new nature of how DtW works (in that no other test is similar in nature to DtW) I'd be willing to agree for HIWPI purposes.

The problem is that the author of the FAQ used DtW test when talking about aegis, so it isn't like the didn't know what a DtW test was. If you have evidence that a DtW test and roll are the same thing, As of right now, it seems that a fairly solid case for a DtW roll being the individual rolls and a DtW test being the collection of rolls.

 IndigoJack wrote:

Zimko wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Zimko wrote:
The FAQ rule.

'Reinforced Aegis: This unit can re-roll any failed Deny the Witch roll.'

RAW... *sigh*... The unit doesn't make a Deny the Witch roll, therefore this rule is useless.

HIWPI: The rule only comes into effect when the unit with it is targeted by a power and you try to DtW that power (thus making it kind of like the unit is rolling the DtW... even though in the rules it is not, YOU are)

Then RAW the +1 for being a psyker, +1 for a higher level psyker +1 adamantum will isnt valid since the "Unit" isnt making the DTW thus no unit modifiers can be added to a DTW roll, if you're reading it that way. Though if thats your interpretation its not really RAW is it..?

I stand corrected, it would imply that the unit makes a DtW test when it is targeted. Since that is the case, then it is clear that the Aegis only applies when the unit that has the Aegis is targeted. Therefore it can't be used to deny blessings since the unit with the Aegis is not the unit making the DtW test.

You can make a DtW test even if you're not targeted. See where I quoted the text earlier.

Yes, YOU can make the roll. But the unit doesn't make a roll so the Aegis doesn't kick in for blessings. (RAW) Or am I looking too deeply into this?

Well the unit is made up of inanimate metal, plastic and resin, and can therefore never roll any dice, I must roll for it. But beside that, the FAQ says "The unit can re-roll any failed DtW roll." And when denying blessing, you can nominate a unit to DtW. Honestly, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

 IndigoJack wrote:
No, you can't extrapolate that at all. Any time you roll an xd6, you use the sum of the numbers. A DtW test is different, as each roll must be a 6+ to be successful, and the test is passed if you successfully nullify your opponents warp charges.

where is the rule for rolling xd6 and the sum of numbers?

Yes a DtW is different in that you need to roll a specific result (6+) a specific number of times (= or < to the number of successful warp charge points that your opponent roll). So a characteristic test is different from a dangerous terrain test which is different from a grounding test which is different from a leadership test which is different from a Psychic test which is different from a DtW test.

Whats common between all of them is that a roll is determined if the test passes or fails and the universal rule of how re-rolls affect a dice roll.

 IndigoJack wrote:
And when denying blessing, you can nominate a unit to DtW. Honestly, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

You can only nominate a unit that was targeted.

If it wasn't targeted to can't nominate them. Blessing don't target your units.

The rule never gives you free rein to just pick a unit to deny with.

 IndigoJack wrote:
Well the unit is made up of inanimate metal, plastic and resin, and can therefore never roll any dice, I must roll for it. But beside that, the FAQ says "The unit can re-roll any failed DtW roll." And when denying blessing, you can nominate a unit to DtW. Honestly, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

What I am getting at is that a unit with the Aegis can not use the Aegis to reroll a DtW test/roll against a blessing or any power that doesn't target them.

Ah thank you. I see that now. That clears up much. Thank you!

Zimko wrote:

 IndigoJack wrote:
Well the unit is made up of inanimate metal, plastic and resin, and can therefore never roll any dice, I must roll for it. But beside that, the FAQ says "The unit can re-roll any failed DtW roll." And when denying blessing, you can nominate a unit to DtW. Honestly, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

What I am getting at is that a unit with the Aegis can not use the Aegis to reroll a DtW test/roll against a blessing or any power that doesn't target them.

Absolutley correct!
If they weren't targeted, they can't be nominated to Deny.

 grendel083 wrote:

 IndigoJack wrote:
And when denying blessing, you can nominate a unit to DtW. Honestly, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

You can only nominate a unit that was targeted.

If it wasn't targeted to can't nominate them. Blessing don't target your units.

The rule never gives you free rein to just pick a unit to deny with.

BRB pg 26

If none of your units were the target of the enemy's psychic power... you can still attempt to deny the witch. To do so follow the same process but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls.

Now RAW is to follow the same process but can't pick a unit that wasn't targeted so no one can deny but that is definitely not RAI.

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 IndigoJack wrote:
And when denying blessing, you can nominate a unit to DtW. Honestly, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

You can only nominate a unit that was targeted.

If it wasn't targeted to can't nominate them. Blessing don't target your units.

The rule never gives you free rein to just pick a unit to deny with.

BRB pg 26

If none of your units were the target of the enemy's psychic power... you can still attempt to deny the witch. To do so follow the same process but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls.

Now RAW is to follow the same process but can't pick a unit that wasn't targeted so no one can deny but that is definitely not RAI.

Doesnt the same process include nominating a unit to deny though?

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
Now RAW is to follow the same process but can't pick a unit that wasn't targeted so no one can deny but that is definitely not RAI.

I totally disagree. I think it's completely RAI.
Why should a unit that was never targeted, and is sat on the other side of the battlefield, suddenly be able to deny a power as if they were shot by it? That makes no sense at all.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 IndigoJack wrote:
And when denying blessing, you can nominate a unit to DtW. Honestly, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

You can only nominate a unit that was targeted.

If it wasn't targeted to can't nominate them. Blessing don't target your units.

The rule never gives you free rein to just pick a unit to deny with.

BRB pg 26

If none of your units were the target of the enemy's psychic power... you can still attempt to deny the witch. To do so follow the same process but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls.

Now RAW is to follow the same process but can't pick a unit that wasn't targeted so no one can deny but that is definitely not RAI.

Doesnt the same process include nominating a unit to deny though?

It does, so RAW is you can't nominate a unit and therefore can't DtW... but that clearly isn't RAI and not how anyone is going to play it.

HIWPI is that no unit is making the DtW roll, you are. (in the case of powers that don't target your units)

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Doesnt the same process include nominating a unit to deny though?

Yes, from the units targeted.
No units were targted, so how can you nominated a unit? You can't.
So no unit can be nominated.

I've no idea where this notion comes from that you can magically nominate any unit you want.
Makes denying Blessing potentially easier than a whichfire that actually targets something.

Yeah, but you nominate a unit that was targeted by the power, and since no unit is targeted by blessings/conjurations, they can't deny. It's a contradiction in the rules.

 grendel083 wrote:

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
Now RAW is to follow the same process but can't pick a unit that wasn't targeted so no one can deny but that is definitely not RAI.

I totally disagree. I think it's completely RAI.
Why should a unit that was never targeted, and is sat on the other side of the battlefield, suddenly be able to deny a power as if they were shot by it? That makes no sense at all.

Then how would you even deny blessings in general with that reasoning? Why should an army be able to do anything to a power that doesnt affect them at all? If you dont nominate the unit, who's attempting to disrupt and deny the blessing?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
Now RAW is to follow the same process but can't pick a unit that wasn't targeted so no one can deny but that is definitely not RAI.

I totally disagree. I think it's completely RAI.
Why should a unit that was never targeted, and is sat on the other side of the battlefield, suddenly be able to deny a power as if they were shot by it? That makes no sense at all.

Then how would you even deny blessings in general with that reasoning? Why should an army be able to do anything to a power that doesnt affect them at all?

Because the rules say you can?
That you can attempt to Deny even if it doesn't target one of your units.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
If you dont nominate the unit, who's attempting to disrupt and deny the blessing?

Are you after a fluff answer?
Because the rules don't allow you to nominate a unit that wasn't targeted.

 grendel083 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
Now RAW is to follow the same process but can't pick a unit that wasn't targeted so no one can deny but that is definitely not RAI.

I totally disagree. I think it's completely RAI.
Why should a unit that was never targeted, and is sat on the other side of the battlefield, suddenly be able to deny a power as if they were shot by it? That makes no sense at all.

Then how would you even deny blessings in general with that reasoning? Why should an army be able to do anything to a power that doesnt affect them at all?

Because the rules say you can?
That you can attempt to Deny even if it doesn't target one of your units.

I can make the rolls to deny, but im not Denying, I'm not a game unit. What unit is able to deny blessings if you're not allowing a unit to deny per the normal deny phase? If i cant nominate a unity to deny, techinically I cant deny it myself as I'm not a unit.

No fluff answer intended, the normal DTW is to nominate a unit to deny, if you cant nominate a unit if its not targeted by an ability, how are you able to deny? Being unable to nominate a unit to deny breaks the Deny chain of events.

 grendel083 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Doesnt the same process include nominating a unit to deny though?

Yes, from the units targeted.
No units were targted, so how can you nominated a unit? You can't.
So no unit can be nominated.

I've no idea where this notion comes from that you can magically nominate any unit you want.
Makes denying Blessing potentially easier than a whichfire that actually targets something.

"...you can still attempt to DtW. To do so, follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls."

Steps for DtW
1) Select one of your units targeted by the enemy psychic power
2) Declare number of WC points you will spend and remove them from your pool
3) Roll a number of D6 equal to the number of WC points expended.

So to deny blessings/conjurations, you follow the same steps. Step one is select a unit. However, this fails because the unit needs to be targeted by the enemy power, and enemy blessings/conjurations don't target your units. So RAW, you can't deny blessings/conjurations, even though is says you can. HIWPI, it says that you can deny spells that don't target you, so follow the same steps and ignore the part about needing to be targeted by enemy psychic powers.

 IndigoJack wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Doesnt the same process include nominating a unit to deny though?

Yes, from the units targeted.
No units were targted, so how can you nominated a unit? You can't.
So no unit can be nominated.

I've no idea where this notion comes from that you can magically nominate any unit you want.
Makes denying Blessing potentially easier than a whichfire that actually targets something.

"...you can still attempt to DtW. To do so, follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls."

Steps for DtW
1) Select one of your units targeted by the enemy psychic power
2) Declare number of WC points you will spend and remove them from your pool
3) Roll a number of D6 equal to the number of WC points expended.

So to deny blessings/conjurations, you follow the same steps. Step one is select a unit. However, this fails because the unit needs to be targeted by the enemy power, and enemy blessings/conjurations don't target your units. So RAW, you can't deny blessings/conjurations, even though is says you can. HIWPI, it says that you can deny spells that don't target you, so follow the same steps and ignore the part about needing to be targeted by enemy psychic powers.

This, if you're not able to preform step 1 as you cant select a unit since a unit wasnt targeted then RAW, you're not allowed to deny blessings since you cant "Follow the same process"

Most armies this wouldnt matter, as you could select any unit since all others have + modifiers to their DTW, which is strictly ignored per the rules, but GK Aegis isnt a modifier.

Also to further reinforce that you nominate a unit to deny Blessings, is that sentance that states "No modifiers can be taken for this" for the Blessing deny, which is assuming that you have picked a unit, and normaly that unit would get modifiers to DTW

 grendel083 wrote:

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
Now RAW is to follow the same process but can't pick a unit that wasn't targeted so no one can deny but that is definitely not RAI.

I totally disagree. I think it's completely RAI.
Why should a unit that was never targeted, and is sat on the other side of the battlefield, suddenly be able to deny a power as if they were shot by it? That makes no sense at all.

I think we have a misunderstanding, I agree with you but RAW it says "to follow the same process" which would include picking a target of the power to DtW with but none of your units are targeted so blessing can't be Denied strictly RAW, but if RAI is for blessing being deniable then you come to 2 options picking a unit to deny with or just rolling a DtW test. in the rules it states that you wouldn't get modifiers to the rolls making it possible to assume that a unit could be denying the blessing or that you don't get bonuses because (as my friends who play fantasy and equate it to the magic phase would say) that the warp is resisting and fighting back and the player picking how many dice to roll is just a coincidence.

So when told to "nominate a unit that was targeted"...
We have 2 options.

1). No unit was targeted, so no unit can be nominated. Move on to next step.
2). Invent a rule that allows us to pick what ever unit we wish. Potentially giving a greater chance of denying than if a unit had been target by a WitchFire because we can cherrypick the one with the best bonuses. In other words, a greater chance than a targeted power! (Last edition a deny wasn't even posible against a blessing).

Why is "no valid unit" not an acceptable answer, but inventing a rule is?

 grendel083 wrote:
So when told to "nominate a unit that was targeted"...
We have 2 options.

1). No unit was targeted, so no unit can be nominated. Move on to next step.
2). Invent a rule that allows us to pick what ever unit we wish. Potentially giving a greater chance of denying than if a unit had been target by a WitchFire because we can cherrypick the one with the best bonuses. In other words, a greater chance than a targeted power! (Last edition a deny wasn't even posible against a blessing).

Why is "no valid unit" not an acceptable answer, but inventing a rule is?

Skipping step 1 instead of inventing a rule for step 1 also seems like the easiest option since it doesn't break anything. I agree with skipping step 1.

Why is ignoring part of one step any less valid than ignoring the whole step?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
This, if you're not able to preform step 1 as you cant select a unit since a unit wasnt targeted then RAW, you're not allowed to deny blessings since you cant "Follow the same process"

This is correct.

Strict RAW you can not deny Psychic powers that do not target your units because you can not follow step 1 of the process.

Steps for DtW
1) Select one of your units targeted by the enemy psychic power
2) Declare number of WC points you will spend and remove them from your pool
3) Roll a number of D6 equal to the number of WC points expended.

 IndigoJack wrote:
Why is ignoring part of one step any less valid than ignoring the whole step?

I suppose it's not, but that's HIWPI. I think we can all agree now that RAW is you can't DtW a power that doesn't target your units, so how you play it is up to you.

 grendel083 wrote:
So when told to "nominate a unit that was targeted"...
We have 2 options.

1). No unit was targeted, so no unit can be nominated. Move on to next step.
2). Invent a rule that allows us to pick what ever unit we wish. Potentially giving a greater chance of denying than if a unit had been target by a WitchFire because we can cherrypick the one with the best bonuses. In other words, a greater chance than a targeted power! (Last edition a deny wasn't even posible against a blessing).

Why is "no valid unit" not an acceptable answer, but inventing a rule is?

Because of this rule :

 IndigoJack wrote:

Pg. 26, "If none of your units were the target of the enemy's psychic power (the power in question might be a blessing, a conjuration, or some other power that only affects the Psyker's own troops), you can still attempt to Deny the Witch. To do so, follow the same process, but apply no modifiers to your dice rolls- you will require rolls of 6 to nullify Warp Charge points."

Why would they bother adding the no modifier bit if modifiers are only calculated on a unit by unit basis. Its assuming you selected a unit to deny, but they dont get any modifiers for denying blessings/conjurations.

Being unable to nominate the unit breaks chain for being able to Deny, We're given permission to deny blessings, using the "Same process" therefore we would still have to nominate a unit as being unable to nominate a unit would leave you unable to follow all steps there after according to the 'same process'

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Being unable to nominate the unit breaks chain for being able to Deny, We're given permission to deny blessings, using the "Same process" therefore we would still have to nominate a unit as being unable to nominate a unit would leave you unable to follow all steps there after according to the 'same process'

And picking any unit you like is not only breaking a rule, but replacing it with a made up one.

And opens up Denying to abuse like... Denying a blessing with an improved agis model that was never targeted.

 grendel083 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Being unable to nominate the unit breaks chain for being able to Deny, We're given permission to deny blessings, using the "Same process" therefore we would still have to nominate a unit as being unable to nominate a unit would leave you unable to follow all steps there after according to the 'same process'

And picking any unit you like is not only breaking a rule, but replacing it with a made up one.

And opens up Denying to abuse like... Denying a blessing with an improved agis model that was never targeted.

Really, what rule am I breaking? I'm following the "Same process" by nominating a unit to deny then proceeding with the rest of the steps.

Ignoring step 1 is 'breaking the rule'

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Really, what rule am I breaking?

You're joking right? The rule says pick a unit that was targeted, and you want to pick one that wasn't. You don't think that's breaking a rule?

I'm following the "Same process" by nominating a unit to deny then proceeding with the rest of the steps.

Except you know full well that is NOT what the rule says. You must pick a unit that was targeted.

Ignoring step 1 is 'breaking the rule'

First can you prove that "none" isn't a valid option when picking a unit?

If it isn't an option, then the game breaks and grinds to a halt.
You can either move on, or invent a rule that's whide open to abuse. I prefer to break as few rules as possible.