So I was going to reply to Peregrine in the original thread, but it seemed its own topic so I'm doing it here. No doubt Peregrine will see this so I hope you don't mind me grabbing your quote over here to reply to!
No, they've chosen a route of "publish that rough draft ASAP because our next financial report is going to kill our stock price if we don't get 7th edition out in time". 40k isn't the result of reasonable design decisions made by intelligent professionals, it's a shameful mess of stuff thrown together without any overall plan and published without anywhere near adequate playtesting. There's simply no justification for the current state of the rules.
Are GW in financial straits? There's a lot about 7th that smacks of short-term cash-grab to me. The changes are mostly small - hardly new edition worthy, imo - with a few glaring exceptions that feel bolted on and all done just two years after the release of 6th. They've taken core rules out so that people have to buy other books (Stronghold) and thrown in things that seem designed to promote frantic model buying at great cost to fluff.
So if you accept that premise, what's the reason behind it all. Are GW really facing dire financial future? I've just had a look at the stock price and at first it appeared to soar upwards and then I clicked on the whole Year option (1Y).
What on Earth happened at the start of the Year? It seems to me that if they paniced around that time with crashing stock, we're now looking at potentially around the right time scale for the response (7th ed) to now start appearing. I mean normally I would say it takes a lot longer than five months to produce a new edition, but much (very much) is recycled and I'm not getting much of a play-tested feel to this.
Not trying to troll - genuinely concerned for the future of the game here. Are GW in panic mode?
The massive drop in January was the market response to the half-year report that showed an 11% drop in revenue (despite Space Marines receiving an update).
Is GW desperate? Who knows. The incompetence shown by the management (not referring to the Design Studio here, just the money guys, even though the designers are arguably incompetent too) in the last five-ten years is just mindblowing. As such, it wouldn't surprise me if they are under the impression that they are just fine and dandy, and have somehow convinced themselves that the revenue drop was just a hiccup, or an expected event that should sort itself out.
Well their MO definitely appears to be to rush things out, but the motive is unclear. The two reasons I could come up with are:
1. Your reason -- they feel under the gun to get things out the door to turn around their financials.
2. Management genuinely does not value quality assurance.
I could see it being either, really. You give some good reasons for #1, but in support of #2, we've seen them cut every other aspect of their company to the bone, so why not QA as well? To me, I lean a little more towards #2 because everything else I've seen from GW indicates they are a poorly managed company, so that reason seems more consistent.
However, this is all just speculation -- I don't think it's possible to know exactly why without actually being in there and seeing what the hell is going on.
Maybe they're just waiting until another company buys them out so they can retire with their millions, and the game getting progressively worse every release is all part of their plan.
Share price is rising. 2013 revenue increased on 2012 and profits weer about 16%. Latest 6 month report available indicates about 13% profit, which is pretty close to the last annual one and is above 10%, so appears relatively healthy.
GW are still profitable and have cash in the bank, so they are not in what an accountant would call dire straits.
That said, the growth pattern of the business is not good. Things now are barely any better in real terms than before the LoTR boom and bust. GW have got a lot more efficient, and put their prices up a lot. This may mean their profits are being sustained against a growing loss of customers. Also, there are some suspicions that some of the efficiency driving has gone too far. One man stores, for example, have been mentioned as a cause of reduced sales.
The interim financial statement of last December was to say the least lacklustre, and makes the sudden early release of 7th edition look more like a desperate cash grab than a well prepared strategic plan. The 24th May release date cunningly gives them two weekends to book sales before their financial year closes the books.
Are they desperate for good reason of fear for the long term future? I think we have to wait 18 months to see the full impact of 7th edition.
Until they find a means to grow their customer base they are a dead company, it is only a matter of when.
They are still focusing on how to get money out of their existing customer base (try to convince a new player to fork out $100 just for books).
The only companies that have a future show a trend of increasing market share, until we see that, there is still a bit more of the old corporate carcass to live off yet.
What on Earth happened at the start of the Year? It seems to me that if they paniced around that time with crashing stock, we're now looking at potentially around the right time scale for the response (7th ed) to now start appearing. I mean normally I would say it takes a lot longer than five months to produce a new edition, but much (very much) is recycled and I'm not getting much of a play-tested feel to this.
GW's stock crashed at the start of the year because they released their half-year financial report that stated that even though that 6 month period corresponded to the re-release of their most profitable line (Space Marines), their revenue still dropped 10% and their profits dropped 30%.
This "new" 40k edition is being released 2 weeks before the end of GW's fiscal year. And what better to bring a nice cash influx into the company than to force the majority of their customer base to re-buy a whole lot of very expensive rulebooks and new game accessories?
I barely believe my dice are not sentient and conspiring against me. When it comes to actual real world events my faith in random coincidence is through the floor.
GW's business model for the last few years has been all about short term gains. They dont concern themselves with long term growth whatsoever. Its very much a company thats focused on getting from one financial report / dividend to the next
ironicsilence wrote: GW's business model for the last few years has been all about short term gains. They dont concern themselves with long term growth whatsoever. Its very much a company thats focused on getting from one financial report / dividend to the next
Which is customers are bleeding away and going to games run by companies that actually seem to give a damn, the last six months have screamed panic, especially going to just one staff member per shop, once you do that it's getting dire.
If you look at the 10 year period (or for the lulz, try MAX) you will see that their stocks have been skyrocketing and plumetting to near worthlessness at least once every decade
GW is there to say. This being said, however, they will still get good results again soon:
1. New edition launched. Despite being a gakky, half-assed excuse for a new edition, it will sell extremely well.
2. More 1-man stores: stores with more than 1 employee continously closed results in less money spent on people results in more money.
3. Centralized empire: shutting down entire HQs (e.g. Germany) and cutting down on translation etc. saves another big amount of money.
4. Price rises: Well, the usual. Higher prices etc.
GW is far from being "desperate" as in "being close to fail". They do have a big problem, though, and that is that everything they do to raise their profit now is a one-way road. You cannot close down HQs twice. You cannot cut down on translations twice. You cannot reduce a store below 1 person.
The overall amount of customers has been shrinking and shrinking. GW still makes a profit because of cutting down on cost and raising prices. The only big saving left for them is a reduction of modelling quality, aka having their stuff produced in China. It's the last thing they can do because they really have to think about changing their ways.
This, however, is not going to happen. Not soon. Kirby is a greedy, fat egomaniac who wants to squeeze the company dry and who doesn't give a single dime about quality, else he would have had a lot of people fired already. Until Kirby dies (or quits, whatever...), GW will keep its course.
Sir Arun wrote: If you look at the 10 year period (or for the lulz, try MAX) you will see that their stocks have been skyrocketing and plumetting to near worthlessness at least once every decade
This is very true.
Seems like they're in semi panic mode; they're really intent on selling more, but they don't really care to expand their target demographic. Seems like their opinion is that if they keep doing the stuff that they've been doing (but do more of it) and spend less on their stores, everything will work. Whether this is true, we'll see.
Personally I don't think they are "desperate" just narrow minded and arrogant. Things like not caring about balance and raising the prices are short-sighted, but excusable. Things like pretending the community doesn't exist and that social media never was invented are catastrophically insane to think that a modern company would ever entertain the idea, but GW does. They shun anything that provides an outlet for criticism, because they have deluded themselves into thinking criticism doesn't exist and, even worse, have the mentality that if you don't let any bad feedback get to you, then there is no bad feedback.
GW is pretty much the definition of the Ivory Tower. They're on a downward spiral but it's a long time before anything happens, if indeed it ever does. Their pace is not sustainable in any way, shape or form though. They already have cut costs (switching to plastic) but still raised prices, they've cut everything they can while still raising prices and spouting this crap about the best miniatures in the world.
Eventually there won't be anything left to cut and prices will be so high that nobody wants to pay it; look at the huge startup cost of getting into 40k today compared to years ago, just on individual unit price alone; their prices are I think 30%+ above inflation and to top it off they reduced what it costs to make, so they didn't have to have such huge increases but did so anyways. That's what is bleeding them dry, because people look at 40k as a game and then see the prices just for the rules plus a basic army (even if you go with just HQ + 2 Troops, which you generally play your first game and then expand, you're looking at probably over $200 and that's not factoring in paints and hobby supplies) and run screaming elsewhere.
WayneTheGame wrote: (even if you go with just HQ + 2 Troops, which you generally play your first game and then expand, you're looking at probably over $200 and that's not factoring in paints and hobby supplies)
Rules book.
Codex
Battle force
Hobby starter set (paints, brush, glue)
Dice
Tape measure
This is in the scale of things a small time company.
Their management can do silly things because there are not enough share holders who care to hold them accountable.
There is no growth, so really they are only keeping the lights on to feed dividends to those on the board.
Yes, they will be around, much resources they can still cut back to save money and could squeeze a bit more money from the remaining fan base.
In the end, their IP I am sure could be snatched up later so no "sky is falling here".
I guess it is like folding a map wrong in front of me: seeing their management being so sure of themselves and now realizing they hit the end of the road of their current method of being "profitable".
Funny how Kirby says "we are a model company" but their flagship method to get into black is to publish a new BRB just before their end of year report.
I would say Kirby is desperate because he could ignore pretty much anything as long as some kind of profit is made, he is no longer even getting that so his bluster is no longer vindicated (Fire that S10 template at his back armor!).
WayneTheGame wrote: (even if you go with just HQ + 2 Troops, which you generally play your first game and then expand, you're looking at probably over $200 and that's not factoring in paints and hobby supplies)
Rules book. Codex Battle force Hobby starter set (paints, brush, glue) Dice Tape measure
$345.75 US retail.
Thanks for that. And that's for roughly the bare minimum, good for "Baby's First 40k Game" and not much else because nobody is going to want to always play 500 points or Kill Team games because that's all the new guy has.
In comparison here is a 35-point (normal sized game - roughly equivalent to a 1,500 point 40k army) Khador force for Warmachine:
Warmachine MkII Rulebook - $29.99 Forces of Warmachine: Khador - $34.99 Khador Battlegroup (Sorscha, Juggernaut, Destroyer) - $49.99 --- You can play basic games to learn here and start in a Journeyman League Widowmakers - $19.99 --- You can play beginner-level games here Winter Guard Infantry (Leader, 9 Grunts, 3 Rocketeers) - $49.99 Winter Guard Officer & Standard Bearer - $12.99 Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - $10.99 Great Bears of Gallowswood - $37.99 Gorman di Wulfe (Merc) - $7.99 Khador Token Set - $11.99 Warmachine Template Set - $9.99 2x Khador Heavy Wreck Markers - 2x @ $9.99 = $19.98 Work Hobby Brush - $6.99 Fine Hobby Brush - $6.99 Primer - $9.99 Hobby Knife - $6.99 File Set - $8.99 Superglue - $6.99 Khador Colors Paint Set - $17.99
Comes to $361.80 USD; the only thing not included is dice because it seems the faction-specific dice are OOP or something, but since you don't need more than 6 dice in Warmachine that's almost negligible. Excluding the aforementioned dice this is $17 more than GW's bare minimum (and when you factor in third-party discounts, you're paying less) including paying for (IMO) overpriced wreck markers (and if you remove the wreck markers then without discounts it's cheaper than GW's entry point), and you have a 35 point army that lets you play the majority of non-tournament games that you'll encounter, albeit without a lot of variety in what you field.
lobbywatson wrote: They should just hire the people from dakka. I mean obviously most of them run multi-million dollar businesses and know what to do....
Ironically, that's what Wizzards of the Coast did when they pretty much ran their game into a wall one and half decade ago. They just went to the person who broke their game the hardest, the world champion, and hired him as rules developer. It went well.
I think the lead designer described it like this (paraphrased): "We obviously didn't know how our game works. So we got someone who does."
One only has to think that
- the CEO and Chairman are the same person,
- that person is the second largest entity to hold stock in GW, -- - that their stock price almost halved in light of a ~10% drop in interim profit and turnover,
- that the management statement with regard to final year performance was less than empathic
- that the chairman/CEO is very close to retirement age, and that their stockholding must be a significant part of their retirement plan
- that nearly every market report or source of information on wargaming seems to suggest that GW's dominance is slipping to a greater or lesser degree.
To see that even if GW themselves aren't exactly in the worst shape (still profitable, for now) there is likely an element of significantly heightened desperation at the very top of the organisation, if not all the way through.
lobbywatson wrote: They should just hire the people from dakka. I mean obviously most of them run multi-million dollar businesses and know what to do....
Yeah, you are probably right.
When 40k was released, it was not aimed to illiterate 12 year old boys. The target was 'educated young people'. GW took anything they found in the Fantasy, Horror & Science Fiction scene and merged it all in a single univese.
The background had a lot of humor but it was also really dark and, most than anything, deep. It was complicated and it had lots of references and eastern eggs directed to the players. In order to get into the game, the players needed to be:
- Young people
- Able to get countless cultural references
- Quite familiar with the Science Fiction, Horror and Fantasy most important settings. Videogames were not about stories then, so I am talking about BOOKS. The average player was expected to read a lot and understand it all.
- With a lot of disposable income.
- Able to cope with something that was quite controversial about politics and religion.
As a result, many of the veteran players I know eventually went to the University, and now they are Scientists (by the way, I think Robin Cruddace has a degree in Physics), or Medics... or really good at Economics. Or they are just people who read a lot and are well informed.
So there is a lot of talent here.
And, of course, you do not need to be talented to run a multi-million dollar business. You do need it to properly run a business though.
lobbywatson wrote: They should just hire the people from dakka. I mean obviously most of them run multi-million dollar businesses and know what to do....
What an utterly facile thing to say, and so unexpected, nobody has ever said anything similar before!!
For the record, though I have no desire to get I to a pissing contest with anyone, I hold qualifications in Business and Economics, I have been a senior manager in a company only slightly smaller than GW and I have run my own company that had turnover in the hundreds of thousands of pounds.
lobbywatson wrote: They should just hire the people from dakka. I mean obviously most of them run multi-million dollar businesses and know what to do....
What an utterly facile thing to say, and so unexpected, nobody has ever said anything similar before!!
For the record, though I have no desire to get I to a pissing contest with anyone, I hold qualifications in Business and Economics, I have been a senior manager in a company only slightly smaller than GW and I have run my own company that had turnover in the hundreds of thousands of pounds.
Am I allowed to comment now?
Not claiming BS, but the problem with an anonymous forum is that anyone can claim anything. An 80 year old man can pretend to be a 16 year old girl, and a not-nosed ten year old can pretend to have a degree in Quantum Physics.
lobbywatson wrote: They should just hire the people from dakka. I mean obviously most of them run multi-million dollar businesses and know what to do....
What an utterly facile thing to say, and so unexpected, nobody has ever said anything similar before!!
For the record, though I have no desire to get I to a pissing contest with anyone, I hold qualifications in Business and Economics, I have been a senior manager in a company only slightly smaller than GW and I have run my own company that had turnover in the hundreds of thousands of pounds.
Am I allowed to comment now?
Not claiming BS, but the problem with an anonymous forum is that anyone can claim anything. An 80 year old man can pretend to be a 16 year old girl, and a not-nosed ten year old can pretend to have a degree in Quantum Physics.
Why is it always Quantum Physics?
No, granted, but if you were to take the time to read back through my post history, I think you'd find enough references to these facts that you'd have to conclude it was either the truth, or I am at least very committed to my role!
lobbywatson wrote: They should just hire the people from dakka. I mean obviously most of them run multi-million dollar businesses and know what to do....
What an utterly facile thing to say, and so unexpected, nobody has ever said anything similar before!!
For the record, though I have no desire to get I to a pissing contest with anyone, I hold qualifications in Business and Economics, I have been a senior manager in a company only slightly smaller than GW and I have run my own company that had turnover in the hundreds of thousands of pounds.
Am I allowed to comment now?
Not claiming BS, but the problem with an anonymous forum is that anyone can claim anything. An 80 year old man can pretend to be a 16 year old girl, and a not-nosed ten year old can pretend to have a degree in Quantum Physics.
Why is it always Quantum Physics?
No, granted, but if you were to take the time to read back through my post history, I think you'd find enough references to these facts that you'd have to conclude it was either the truth, or I am at least very committed to my role!
ironicsilence wrote: GW's business model for the last few years has been all about short term gains. They dont concern themselves with long term growth whatsoever. Its very much a company thats focused on getting from one financial report / dividend to the next
This.
The strategy of, "We're losing customers, so let's just jack up prices to make up the difference" is not sustainable long-term. Eventually people will have to make a choice between a Dreadnought and a Lambo. 9 / 10 will probably choose the Lambo.
azreal13 wrote: No, granted, but if you were to take the time to read back through my post history, I think you'd find enough references to these facts that you'd have to conclude it was either the truth, or I am at least very committed to my role!
You'd be surprised the depths some people have taken. Like I said, I'm not accusing you of lying. Whether you've run 1 company or hundreds makes no difference to me. I just happened to single you out as it has been a long while since somebody has made any sort of claim as to what they do for a living. Generally people just post their win-loss ratio. I'm just pointing out that (true or not) claiming you have some sort of experience or knowledge, is not something that is verifiable online, and there will be people who disregard it as an appeal to authority.
azreal13 wrote: No, granted, but if you were to take the time to read back through my post history, I think you'd find enough references to these facts that you'd have to conclude it was either the truth, or I am at least very committed to my role!
You'd be surprised the depths some people have taken. Like I said, I'm not accusing you of lying. Whether you've run 1 company or hundreds makes no difference to me. I just happened to single you out as it has been a long while since somebody has made any sort of claim as to what they do for a living. Generally people just post their win-loss ratio. I'm just pointing out that (true or not) claiming you have some sort of experience or knowledge, is not something that is verifiable online, and there will be people who disregard it as an appeal to authority.
While many others will see their opinions validated.
lobbywatson wrote: They should just hire the people from dakka. I mean obviously most of them run multi-million dollar businesses and know what to do....
What an utterly facile thing to say, and so unexpected, nobody has ever said anything similar before!!
For the record, though I have no desire to get I to a pissing contest with anyone, I hold qualifications in Business and Economics, I have been a senior manager in a company only slightly smaller than GW and I have run my own company that had turnover in the hundreds of thousands of pounds.
Am I allowed to comment now?
Not claiming BS, but the problem with an anonymous forum is that anyone can claim anything. An 80 year old man can pretend to be a 16 year old girl, and a not-nosed ten year old can pretend to have a degree in Quantum Physics.
Why is it always Quantum Physics?
That is why I say things that can be verified by reference to independent objectively sourced fact.
The title of the thread is "Just how desperate are GW". Until a person who verifiably works for the company comes forwards and tells us. We simply don't know. So all of these guesses are just that guesses and contribute zero to the hobby/game. Just haters doing what they do. Hate.
Frankly they had a far worse stock drop about 10 years ago. Gee weird they survived.... Quit hoping they fail thats utterly pointless. Because thats really what every 13th thread here is about. How GW crapped the bed/going out of business/worst company ever/raped my horse/ whatever.
I take full responsibility I should have known better then to open thus thread. I'm an idiot.
lobbywatson wrote: The title of the thread is "Just how desperate are GW". Until a person who verifiably works for the company comes forwards and tells us. We simply don't know. So all of these guesses are just that guesses and contribute zero to the hobby/game. Just haters doing what they do. Hate.
Frankly they had a far worse stock drop about 10 years ago. Gee weird they survived.... Quit hoping they fail thats utterly pointless. Because thats really what every 13th thread here is about. How GW crapped the bed/going out of business/worst company ever/raped my horse/ whatever.
I take full responsibility I should have known better then to open thus thread. I'm an idiot.
speculation
ˌspɛkjʊˈleɪʃn/
noun
1.
the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.
"there has been widespread speculation that he plans to quit"
synonyms: conjecture, theorizing, hypothesizing, supposition, guesswork;
Surely it is obvious that the thread asks people to give their opinions and that is what people have done.
I think frankly it is ridiculous to complain that no-one has inside knowledge of GW's accounts. In any case that will be revealed soon enough according to law.
Games Workshop may be going through a period of careful steering after the horrid slump in January. As to whether or not they are desperate though?
Well, I've not seen any of the game designers stood on street corners trying to sell clingfilm wrapped bitz or offering me a good time in a hotel room - so it can't be that bad.
Well, GW seems to be on a consolidation move to reduce expenses and optimize profits. This a quite natural for a company that needs to please their shareholders.
However, what worries is that GW is not finding a way to get new players into the games. Its not only the prices, its also the rule book of 200 pages which are hard to master for a beginner.
Cause, as I can attest as a physics student, Quantum physics is fething hard...
Or is it?
Until you open the textbook, you can't know for sure!
Really, are we going the Schrodinger route here? Schrodinger's Quantum Physics Function - Quantum Physics is both easy and fething hard until you open the book?
lobbywatson wrote: The title of the thread is "Just how desperate are GW". Until a person who verifiably works for the company comes forwards and tells us. We simply don't know. So all of these guesses are just that guesses and contribute zero to the hobby/game. Just haters doing what they do. Hate.
Frankly they had a far worse stock drop about 10 years ago. Gee weird they survived.... Quit hoping they fail thats utterly pointless. Because thats really what every 13th thread here is about. How GW crapped the bed/going out of business/worst company ever/raped my horse/ whatever.
I take full responsibility I should have known better then to open thus thread. I'm an idiot.
lobbywatson wrote: They should just hire the people from dakka. I mean obviously most of them run multi-million dollar businesses and know what to do....
What an utterly facile thing to say, and so unexpected, nobody has ever said anything similar before!!
For the record, though I have no desire to get I to a pissing contest with anyone, I hold qualifications in Business and Economics, I have been a senior manager in a company only slightly smaller than GW and I have run my own company that had turnover in the hundreds of thousands of pounds.
Am I allowed to comment now?
Not claiming BS, but the problem with an anonymous forum is that anyone can claim anything. An 80 year old man can pretend to be a 16 year old girl, and a not-nosed ten year old can pretend to have a degree in Quantum Physics.
Why is it always Quantum Physics?
Good luck trying to pretend to have a degree in Quantum Physics. If the internet has shown an ability to do anything it is its ability to debunk false claims.
Personally I think the following is the best example of BSer, I've read:
You cite expertise as a factor in this anallissis. I am an expert in WSA. In 1986, I was paid 6,650 per month in salery and more in bennies and other compensation for that skill. While your arguments are very good and enlightening, I saw nothing that could change this and several points that might be flawed.
I will read more before I am prepaired to argue them though and hope that you will consider my points before then. I also appologise for my grammar and spelling. One half of my brain has a 185 point IQ, while the other resembles "Forest Gump" and they are disconected by one of the origional casses of Dyslexia on record. ( I would sincerely appreciate a spell checker for this feedback device.)
As an expert, (will send witnessed targets if you wish) Any hand weapon that is limeted to 30m is shear folly. I once won a $100 bet with the Chief of Police from Taif, KSA that I could hit a 14" gong, 200m away, with a .22 pistol before any of his mewn could do the same with their rifles. The kind of training that the "dust buster" implies would make those kinds of ranges possable to almost any person with a decent side arm. As proof I will train you if you will pay for the ammo and range rental.
This brings up my favorite peev about the light saber. Kool it certainly is but as a weapon it is a dud that is too dumb for words. "Less random than a blaster" implies that blasters must be terribly inaccurate, as I have made head shots under opperational pressure at ranges exceeding 60m and one at 109m. In all of those engagements I never had to shoot twice!
PS I studied Kendo while in Japan and Ethiopia, so I know a little bit about sword work too. (Not much as I got bored with all the rote exercises and quit after only a year and a half but enough to know that nothing I've seen in the movies is that good without wire work.) PPS My reflexes and strength alowed me to beat my origional Japanise instructor more than he beat me after the first two months in class. 60 pounds, 0.13 second reflexes and a 228 bench press will do that for you.
Like the Austro-Hungarian Empire or the French Third Republic, Games Workshop is the paper tiger that surprises the world by its mere survival to the next year.
lobbywatson wrote: They should just hire the people from dakka. I mean obviously most of them run multi-million dollar businesses and know what to do....
If that was the only requirement, I could do it; I manage several million dollars per year in funds and a hundred or so employees.
Sadly, GW's financials are a hundred million and thousands of employees; not to mention a worldwide operation.
My realization that I do not currently have the knowledge or experience to run a company that large does not prohibit me from recognizing the completely asinine decisions that GW's management seems to make a habit of committing.
The people at Dakka, Bolter and Chainsword, Heresy Online, Warseer, the various race specific forums, BolS, and /tg/ would be able to make a much better and more balanced game where each faction felt powerful, fluffy, and variable and there would at least be an attempt to keep each unit viable.
And ultimately, a system free of pay to win disease is a more viable long term system that attracts more new consumers and appeals to old ones. Furthermore, GW also seems to have no concept of the importance of marketing to a business. World of Tanks got big partially because it plastered it's advertisements on every corner of the internet. Evony and the other, even more misogynistically advertised Evony copycats became infamous for doing the same (with boob girls who were never actually in the game). That nobody in GW ever tried doing the same is nothing short of amazing.
We would probably go for a living ruleset however.
Kain wrote: The people at Dakka, Bolter and Chainsword, Heresy Online, Warseer, the various race specific forums, BolS, and /tg/ would be able to make a much better and more balanced game where each faction felt powerful, fluffy, and variable and there would at least be an attempt to keep each unit viable.
And ultimately, a system free of pay to win disease is a more viable long term system that attracts more new consumers and appeals to old ones. Furthermore, GW also seems to have no concept of the importance of marketing to a business. World of Tanks got big partially because it plastered it's advertisements on every corner of the internet. Evony and the other, even more misogynistically advertised Evony copycats became infamous for doing the same (with boob girls who were never actually in the game). That nobody in GW ever tried doing the same is nothing short of amazing.
We would probably go for a living ruleset however.
Hell many of us would screw up but, in the end, I feel most of us would end up listening and faqing.
lobbywatson wrote: They should just hire the people from dakka. I mean obviously most of them run multi-million dollar businesses and know what to do....
Well it did work for George Lucas and Star Wars, i dont see why it would not work here.
lobbywatson wrote: They should just hire the people from dakka. I mean obviously most of them run multi-million dollar businesses and know what to do....
If that was the only requirement, I could do it; I manage several million dollars per year in funds and a hundred or so employees.
Sadly, GW's financials are a hundred million and thousands of employees; not to mention a worldwide operation.
My realization that I do not currently have the knowledge or experience to run a company that large does not prohibit me from recognizing the completely asinine decisions that GW's management seems to make a habit of committing.
Uh... GW is nowhere near that large a company. We're talking a company that considers 15 million GBP a year as "pretty good." It's not a mom-and-pop operation, by any means, but it's not the ConglomCo that you're making it out to be.
Uh... GW is nowhere near that large a company. We're talking a company that considers 15 million GBP a year as "pretty good." It's not a mom-and-pop operation, by any means, but it's not the ConglomCo that you're making it out to be.
Yeah, the entire company only had sales totaling 134.6 Million GBP ($226.13 million), with a profit of 21.4 million GBP ($35.95 Million). That is approximately equal to the sales of a single district for a Lowe's or Home Depot. Heck, a small market K-mart (single store mind you) does $20 million in sales annually.
So GW has the sales generation of 11 small K-marts or 6 small market Lowe's locations.
Though their profit margin is way, better. At almost 16%.
lobbywatson wrote: They should just hire the people from dakka. I mean obviously most of them run multi-million dollar businesses and know what to do....
If that was the only requirement, I could do it; I manage several million dollars per year in funds and a hundred or so employees.
Sadly, GW's financials are a hundred million and thousands of employees; not to mention a worldwide operation.
My realization that I do not currently have the knowledge or experience to run a company that large does not prohibit me from recognizing the completely asinine decisions that GW's management seems to make a habit of committing.
Uh... GW is nowhere near that large a company. We're talking a company that considers 15 million GBP a year as "pretty good." It's not a mom-and-pop operation, by any means, but it's not the ConglomCo that you're making it out to be.
huh. I don't know why I was thinking it was a hundred million or something... ah well. In that case, I couldn't do any worse than current management....possibly.
Uh... GW is nowhere near that large a company. We're talking a company that considers 15 million GBP a year as "pretty good." It's not a mom-and-pop operation, by any means, but it's not the ConglomCo that you're making it out to be.
Yeah, the entire company only had sales totaling 134.6 Million GBP ($226.13 million), with a profit of 21.4 million GBP ($35.95 Million). That is approximately equal to the sales of a single district for a Lowe's or Home Depot. Heck, a small market K-mart (single store mind you) does $20 million in sales annually.
So GW has the sales generation of 11 small K-marts or 6 small market Lowe's locations.
Or 1000 small family operated convenience stores, it is a futile exercise drawing these comparisons, and has no real relevance to the point the poster in question was making (he didn't feel being unqualified to run a business GW's size disqualified him from having an opinion on how badly run GW is)
Uh... GW is nowhere near that large a company. We're talking a company that considers 15 million GBP a year as "pretty good." It's not a mom-and-pop operation, by any means, but it's not the ConglomCo that you're making it out to be.
Yeah, the entire company only had sales totaling 134.6 Million GBP ($226.13 million), with a profit of 21.4 million GBP ($35.95 Million). That is approximately equal to the sales of a single district for a Lowe's or Home Depot. Heck, a small market K-mart (single store mind you) does $20 million in sales annually.
So GW has the sales generation of 11 small K-marts or 6 small market Lowe's locations.
Or 1000 small family operated convenience stores, it is a futile exercise drawing these comparisons, and has no real relevance to the point the poster in question was making (he didn't feel being unqualified to run a business GW's size disqualified him from having an opinion on how badly run GW is)
That's true, you don't have to be a veterinarian to know that a dog is dead or a trained chef to understand that something tastes bad.
I was just pointing out that it's not that large of a company, heck, even I've been a district level manager that handled sales that exceeded GW's annual. It wouldn't be too hard to think that there are many more like me on the forums as well as those that have handled even more prestigious positions. Not to mention that there are probably a few that are involved and are far more accomplished with stocks and business assessments than I am.
But, come to think of it. If the average customer were to spend $200 annually on GW products Accounting for wholesale prices we could conservatively estimate that GW actually gets $100 from each customer. That would mean that GW only has about 2 million customers world wide. Not a very large community. I never really thought of that before.
I was being very generous with the whole sale costs. I don't know how much they charge fro their wholesale prices. Maybe someone that buys from them whole sale could tell me. Like, how much does GW charge a retailer for the BRB? That would tell you the amount of sales that GW gets directly from their affiliated retailers. I'm sure that it is higher than 50% because of direct sales and their own storefronts.
Maximum discount is 40% off retail before taxes, not all retailers will get the full discount.
Their margin, averaged out over literally everything they sell, before factoring non-production related costs, is somewhere in the region of 70%.
Also, while I see flaws in your logic, I don't think 2m is an unreasonable number to arrive at, and while it is tiny as a percentage of the global population, let us not lose sight of exactly how many people that is.
azreal13 wrote: Maximum discount is 40% off retail before taxes, not all retailers will get the full discount.
Their margin, averaged out over literally everything they sell, before factoring non-production related costs, is somewhere in the region of 70%.
Also, while I see flaws in your logic, I don't think 2m is an unreasonable number to arrive at, and while it is tiny as a percentage of the global population, let us not lose sight of exactly how many people that is.
Sales don't factor in costs, it's a raw figure. So, if the wholesale charge is (on average) 70% of the retail cost for the independent retailers and direct sales (through their stores and online) attributes 100%, of dollars spent by the consumer at least 75% of those dollars go directly to the GW sales line. Remember we aren't factoring in costs, these are raw sales numbers.
So, let's say the average GW customer spends $200 a year on GW products (that's only $17 a month). To reach the annual sales numbers listed at the GW web site, you only have 1.5 million customers.
1.5 million people is the population of Phoenix, Arizona.
Are you trying to say that 1.5m is a lot or a small amount. Because 1.5m is a lot of anything, just because it is a fraction of, say, the number of Big Macs sold globally each year, doesn't mean it somehow ceases to be significant in a niche market like wargaming.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, GW seems to be on a consolidation move to reduce expenses and optimize profits. This a quite natural for a company that needs to please their shareholders.
However, what worries is that GW is not finding a way to get new players into the games. Its not only the prices, its also the rule book of 200 pages which are hard to master for a beginner.
Here PP makes a much better job.
I 100% agree. Having just got into Hordes I read the quick start rules in 10 minutes then was able to go out and play an introductory game.
$50 start-up cost, or less if you split one of the 2 player battle boxes, is great for getting new people into the game as well.
Considering all the desperate moves lately (one-man stores, rushed releases, fat-trimming etc) I can't help but imagine this guys and one of his quotes when I think of GW's desperation:
"There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept."
masterdoobie wrote: Considering all the desperate moves lately (one-man stores, rushed releases, fat-trimming etc) I can't help but imagine this guys and one of his quotes when I think of GW's desperation:
"There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept."
I think you've mixed GW management up with this guy....
Are you trying to say that 1.5m is a lot or a small amount. Because 1.5m is a lot of anything, just because it is a fraction of, say, the number of Big Macs sold globally each year, doesn't mean it somehow ceases to be significant in a niche market like wargaming.
It's a small amount. It may be a large share of the gaming market, but it's a tiny amount for a customer base from a global company. I touched on this because of the fellow that was waiting for someone with business experience to make comments.
While, like I said before, you don't have to be a trained chef to know that something tastes bad, I was letting that fellow know that there are many people in these forums that do have business experience that equals or surpasses that of the GW scope. I'm one of them and I'm by no means unique. As I said before, there must be many more on these forums that have greater experience than I.
Their customer base is dwindling. Their sales are falling year to year. They're staying profitable only by raising prices and slashing costs. They're a shrinking business in a growing segment.
Cause, as I can attest as a physics student, Quantum physics is fething hard...
In opposition to math which is locally trivial.
Things went downhill for GW when they became a shareholder company.
They have to satisfy both, the shareholders and the customers. This seems to be a trade-off.
Kain wrote: The people at Dakka, Bolter and Chainsword, Heresy Online, Warseer, the various race specific forums, BolS, and /tg/ would be able to make a much better and more balanced game where each faction felt powerful, fluffy, and variable and there would at least be an attempt to keep each unit viable.
And ultimately, a system free of pay to win disease is a more viable long term system that attracts more new consumers and appeals to old ones. Furthermore, GW also seems to have no concept of the importance of marketing to a business. World of Tanks got big partially because it plastered it's advertisements on every corner of the internet. Evony and the other, even more misogynistically advertised Evony copycats became infamous for doing the same (with boob girls who were never actually in the game). That nobody in GW ever tried doing the same is nothing short of amazing.
We would probably go for a living ruleset however.
Another reason World of Tanks got so big is because there are about 500 million men and boys in the world who have got computers and think it would be fun to drive around in a tank blowing stuff up and WoT lets you do that for free with practically no time or cost investment.
40K on the other hand requires a substantial cash, time and mental effort investment just to start to play, unless you have friends who will let you join in with them. That is why veterans and word of mouth are important to GW's success.
Kain wrote: The people at Dakka, Bolter and Chainsword, Heresy Online, Warseer, the various race specific forums, BolS, and /tg/ would be able to make a much better and more balanced game where each faction felt powerful, fluffy, and variable and there would at least be an attempt to keep each unit viable.
And ultimately, a system free of pay to win disease is a more viable long term system that attracts more new consumers and appeals to old ones. Furthermore, GW also seems to have no concept of the importance of marketing to a business. World of Tanks got big partially because it plastered it's advertisements on every corner of the internet. Evony and the other, even more misogynistically advertised Evony copycats became infamous for doing the same (with boob girls who were never actually in the game). That nobody in GW ever tried doing the same is nothing short of amazing.
We would probably go for a living ruleset however.
Another reason World of Tanks got so big is because there are about 500 million men and boys in the world who have got computers and think it would be fun to drive around in a tank blowing stuff up and WoT lets you do that for free with practically no time or cost investment.
40K on the other hand requires a substantial cash, time and mental effort investment just to start to play, unless you have friends who will let you join in with them. That is why veterans and word of mouth are important to GW's success.
Making their fanbase alienating "strategies" even dumber.
they will probably be fine for now. ive noticed many people whining about GW in one thread then talking about the 500 dollar limited edition thing they just bought from them in the next.
Don't be concerned about the future of the game. The best possible thing that can happen is that Games Workshop goes bust. Someone will adopt the franchise, and come in with a fresh approach which likely includes actual balance to the rules, and sensible marketing including prices that win back customers.
Don't be concerned about the future of the game. The best possible thing that can happen is that Games Workshop goes bust. Someone will adopt the franchise, and come in with a fresh approach which likely includes actual balance to the rules, and sensible marketing including prices that win back customers.
I must say I see a slight flaw in that plan, if GW does go bust it would indicate that most of the supporters of the game had left. And if there are very few fans left then other companies might be hesitant to buy the IP, and as time goes on more and more people of the who were still fans move on to new games. JUst my two cents though, could be completely wrong
Sure, that could actually happen. I imagine GW will try and ring every cent out of selling the IP and probably not set a sensible price. But eventually they will have to, and during the limbo. worst case scenario is that there is a widely used homebrew version of the ruleset online, updated by someone who really cares about balance. Almost any of us could do it better than GW. Someone out there is bound to do it even better than that.
Or we just use 7th for a while.
A drastic change needs to happen, GW being gone will be a good thing, even if it gets slightly worse for a small amount of time afterwards (although I doubt it could get much worse by remaining static, its already p bad)
I hear a lot of talk on the forums about the modeling aspect of GW, but what about the massive success of the 40K novels, and specifically the Horus Heresy series? This is a definite money-maker for GW (or Black Library, if you want to be technical, same thing) and is one of the few things I regularly purchase. Anyone have any numbers on what the many, many novels are doing for GW?
There is indeed a middle ground between total bust/buy out and continuing the status quo.
The company could end up licensing the product to a larger game manufacturer such as Hasbro. That way the company remains intact and still draw income from the property. That way they retain the IP and could still produce the Black Library and Forge World stuff.
There are many ways that this whole thing could go.
Edit: The more I think of it, the more likely that may be the eventual case. A standard Licensing agreement generally pays 7% without the costs associated with production. While this is a 50% reduction from what they are currently getting it could easily be made up for with the increased volume of sales.
Retrogamer0001 wrote: I hear a lot of talk on the forums about the modeling aspect of GW, but what about the massive success of the 40K novels, and specifically the Horus Heresy series? This is a definite money-maker for GW (or Black Library, if you want to be technical, same thing) and is one of the few things I regularly purchase. Anyone have any numbers on what the many, many novels are doing for GW?
I'd expand that to licensed products in general. The Dawn of War series of video games must have done very well for GW, Space Marine was fairly well received too. If they concentrate on getting good games out, rather than the trash since Space Marine it would work well for them. Not only do they stand on their own merit (books, pc games etc), but they bring more into the other aspects of the hobby. I'd known about 40k for a long time, but only got into it after playing Dawn of War, without it I wouldn't have. I doubt I'd have gone in as deep without all the novels like Gaunts Ghosts, Horus Heresy etc either.
The trash video games coming out lately could be taken as desperation on GWs part too I guess. They're farming out the IP to any company that promise a quick buck.
SHUPPET wrote: Sure, that could actually happen. I imagine GW will try and ring every cent out of selling the IP and probably not set a sensible price. But eventually they will have to, and during the limbo. worst case scenario is that there is a widely used homebrew version of the ruleset online, updated by someone who really cares about balance. Almost any of us could do it better than GW. Someone out there is bound to do it even better than that.
Or we just use 7th for a while.
A drastic change needs to happen, GW being gone will be a good thing, even if it gets slightly worse for a small amount of time afterwards (although I doubt it could get much worse by remaining static, its already p bad)
We already had that, It was the pancake edition. What we need is someone to home brew some balanced codex's.
- They are stuck with a very antiquated business model. The sell-through, shop-based model is now more of a hindrance than a help. They could easily sell online and shut every single shop. However, they have a customer base which is accustomed to the shop as a social centre if nothing else. I bet many go in and chat, maybe play a game and sometimes buy the odd bit to keep the 'manager' happy. However, they probably then go and place all their GW orders with a third party discounter online. On the other hand if they shut their shops they run the risk of causing the community to collapse and getting cries of "they're panicking" from the t'internet. I imagine if they went all serious and got in consultants they would be advised to shut or radically scale back the shops and go for more online. In the UK there are shops in many small towns, often within a pretty easy distance of a major city where a central hub store could exists, say Macclesfield to Manchester, or similarly Bury, Stockport, etc. They could easily shut those for purely financial reasons. I think this is a massive quandary for them and a huge drain on their bottom line.
- They do seem to exist in a bubble. They don't like to engage with the fans except on their own terms. They jealously guard their release schedule, etc. I fear this is unhealthy and makes them disconnected from the reality of the situation.
- I have always argued that they should do some sort of promotions, army of the month discounts, sales, loyalty rewards, whatever.
- Considering GW's profit obsessions it is incredible that they still manufacture in the UK. This is actually something which keeps me sweet on them because it provides skills jobs, supply chain, etc in my home nation and I appreciate that. However, commercially it must be expensive. Surely it would be cheaper to produce in China? I don't know why they do this. Possibly because they like to control everything and having all the functions in one location means the senior management can micro-manage every aspect of the process.
Given the margins on their products they have a remarkable lack of profitability. The margins on plastic miniatures at GW prices must be immense. They could get away without retail boxes through net sales and simply pit them in bags. That their profit margins are so low is amazing really, every product sold must carry a margin of at a guess 60%+. Where does the money go? Shops probably don't make any money and are one-man now to try and minimise the loss. There are a lot of chiefs, designers, etc and I bet they pay decent wages to them. However, the main expenses I guess will be in the very top echelons with generous wages, bonuses and huge expenditure on office furniture, expenses, etc. I'm just guessing but I feel they are haemorrhaging money somewhere.
I feel that with their products so expensive compared to the materials used this is a company which could very easily be run at a massive profit but is not well run and does not know how to sort this out. It probably runs "as it always did". Look at Black Industries. Shut down as a non profit making arm but then FF have taken the RPG stuff and made a massive success when GW saw this as a loss maker. Different approaches?
Also GW profits were boosted by the sheer value of the royalties from the Space Marine game. Amazingly this was a massive chunk of their entire profit and this shows how much more profitable a moderately successful console game is than their entire product line.
Kain wrote: The people at Dakka, Bolter and Chainsword, Heresy Online, Warseer, the various race specific forums, BolS, and /tg/ would be able to make a much better and more balanced game where each faction felt powerful, fluffy, and variable and there would at least be an attempt to keep each unit viable.
And ultimately, a system free of pay to win disease is a more viable long term system that attracts more new consumers and appeals to old ones. Furthermore, GW also seems to have no concept of the importance of marketing to a business. World of Tanks got big partially because it plastered it's advertisements on every corner of the internet. Evony and the other, even more misogynistically advertised Evony copycats became infamous for doing the same (with boob girls who were never actually in the game). That nobody in GW ever tried doing the same is nothing short of amazing.
We would probably go for a living ruleset however.
Another reason World of Tanks got so big is because there are about 500 million men and boys in the world who have got computers and think it would be fun to drive around in a tank blowing stuff up and WoT lets you do that for free with practically no time or cost investment.
40K on the other hand requires a substantial cash, time and mental effort investment just to start to play, unless you have friends who will let you join in with them. That is why veterans and word of mouth are important to GW's success.
WoT did spend money on mainstream advertising as well, they had posters on the London Underground for example.
Isengard wrote: - They are stuck with a very antiquated business model. The sell-through, shop-based model is now more of a hindrance than a help. They could easily sell online and shut every single shop. However, they have a customer base which is accustomed to the shop as a social centre if nothing else. I bet many go in and chat, maybe play a game and sometimes buy the odd bit to keep the 'manager' happy. However, they probably then go and place all their GW orders with a third party discounter online. On the other hand if they shut their shops they run the risk of causing the community to collapse and getting cries of "they're panicking" from the t'internet. I imagine if they went all serious and got in consultants they would be advised to shut or radically scale back the shops and go for more online. In the UK there are shops in many small towns, often within a pretty easy distance of a major city where a central hub store could exists, say Macclesfield to Manchester, or similarly Bury, Stockport, etc. They could easily shut those for purely financial reasons. I think this is a massive quandary for them and a huge drain on their bottom line.
Commercial contracts are an interesting beast (at least for shops and warehousing in the UK) in that contracts tend to be set up in ways that protect both the leaser and the lessee. Likely GW can't just up and leave or give notice when it feels like it, and I'm led to believe that at some point in time they negotiated some excellent discounts on locations that makes it very difficult for them to back out of the contract, though usually if you can get another tenant in the you don't have to pay the costs whilst you're tied to the location as long as it isn't vacant.
World of Tanks also did TV advertising around Christmas.
The shops are a key marketing device for GW, as their only other way to engage with people is through Warhammer Visions. In shops potential customers can experience the physical product assembled, painted and working in game. They can even be taught how to paint and play, and experience the community feeling of wargames. However this doesn't work with one man staffing.
The other advantage of shops is that once you have got people into them you can show off a whole range of products. However GW only does 40K and WHFB. If they haven't already sold that idea to the customer, they haven't got anything else to interest him.
If the shops aren't working the other way of selling is by word of mouth. However GW have spent the past five+ years annoying swathes of veterans, driving them away from the games and convincing them to actively promote rival systems.
It used to be that GW products and "Citadel Miniatures" were sold in normal toy and gaming shops. And indeed when they first started off GW shops actually sold non-GW products as well. I remember being surprised as a kid one day when I went into the GW shop and was told they didn't sell BattleTech and I had to go elsewhere.
Perhaps the time has come not for GW to stop having a retail presence, but to fold back in with normal shops. There are few such shops these days in the UK. If GW stores became more general again, it would be a huge boost for gaming in the UK and possibly, if as people have said they're just not profitable anymore, then it would be a help to GW as well.
If I were manager of a GW franchise somewhere, I would be very tempted to hand back my big yellow and red sign and go general. Board games, RPGs, other wargames. You'd get a lot more through-traffic from the store and you could still sell GW products.
Anyone know if there's anything contractual / legal stopping that? Are stores actually franchises or do GW own them and just have the manager as a straight employee?
It never ceases to amaze me just how different GW and PP operate. PP models are roughly the same price as GW's (officially, every FLHS in my area knocks off 10-20% of the price) yet PP seems to actually give a damn about balanced rules and customer satisfaction.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: It never ceases to amaze me just how different GW and PP operate. PP models are roughly the same price as GW's (officially, every FLHS in my area knocks off 10-20% of the price) yet PP seems to actually give a damn about balanced rules and customer satisfaction.
Indeed, this is a major difference between PP and GW.
PP also provides a core rule set in terms of a four-page flyer for the battle starter boxes.
Kilkrazy wrote:If the shops aren't working the other way of selling is by word of mouth. However GW have spent the past five+ years annoying swathes of veterans, driving them away from the games and convincing them to actively promote rival systems.
It's not just annoying veterans, it's the combination of prices and quality of rules too. I have a couple of friends who are not into 40k, but would probably be interested. But I'm not gonna go and sucker them into dropping £500 on an army for a game that's pretty meh. I'd feel like a grade A donkey-cave. Compared to the Warmachine, where I see the group at my club super excited about it and always offering to put me down for some stuff when they make group orders, or offering to teach me how to play, or bringing other mates to the club with them to try out the game... Yeah...
knas ser wrote: Are stores actually franchises or do GW own them and just have the manager as a straight employee?
The shops are not franchises, and the managers are employed directly by GW.
Thud wrote: It's not just annoying veterans, it's the combination of prices and quality of rules too. I have a couple of friends who are not into 40k, but would probably be interested. But I'm not gonna go and sucker them into dropping £500 on an army for a game that's pretty meh. I'd feel like a grade A donkey-cave. Compared to the Warmachine, where I see the group at my club super excited about it and always offering to put me down for some stuff when they make group orders, or offering to teach me how to play, or bringing other mates to the club with them to try out the game... Yeah...
This. While I love 40k lore and own 6000 points of orks, a gaming table with terrain et all, I would not encourage any of my friends to start as well. I'd rather suggest starting Warmahorde with them.
stopcallingmechief wrote: very desperate. I recently came back, spend several hundred doallars on models and rules to learn that 6 weeks later a new edition will be out and the majority of models i bought for my previously large csm force turned out to be crap or considered outright cheese. The whole experience is leaving me contemplating either quiting again or starting a eldar or high elf (ive been told fantasy is more balanced idk) army from from china instead of GW. I feel ive given this company enough considering what ive gotten in return.
Pump and dump. They've gotten what they wanted from you.
stopcallingmechief wrote: The whole experience is leaving me contemplating either quiting again or starting a eldar or high elf (ive been told fantasy is more balanced idk) army from from china instead of GW. I feel ive given this company enough considering what ive gotten in return.
It's come up on a couple of occasions that it is frequently dissatisfaction with GW and their behaviour, rather than price, that drives people to ahem, "import" their models.
I do believe it has been shown in other markets that people are reluctant to pirate as long as they feel they're getting a decent product, honestly priced, so with the strong feeling against GW's pricing structure as well as other factors that is often expressed by multiple individuals, one has to wonder how much they're losing to third parties, whether that be recasters or legitimate third party alternate model makers.
people who always splurge and impulse buy merely for the sake of competitiveness rightfully get punished by GW. I really dont understand why people think list tailoring and buying speficially those models will ensure they remain top dog for several years instead of the reality of a year at best. This is why you should collect models that you like and build armylists that you consider fluffy, so when a new codex drops you wont have to sell everything and instead, some of your units will get worse and others will get better.
Sir Arun wrote: people who always splurge and impulse buy merely for the sake of competitiveness rightfully get punished by GW. I really dont understand why people think list tailoring and buying speficially those models will ensure they remain top dog for several years instead of the reality of a year at best. This is why you should collect models that you like and build armylists that you consider fluffy, so when a new codex drops you wont have to sell everything and instead, some of your units will get worse and others will get better.
And losing every game because you picked the wrong faction or units isn't any fun either. It's not about competitive vs fluffy it's about some units being outright garbage in either kind of list.
Sir Arun wrote: people who always splurge and impulse buy merely for the sake of competitiveness rightfully get punished by GW. I really dont understand why people think list tailoring and buying speficially those models will ensure they remain top dog for several years instead of the reality of a year at best. This is why you should collect models that you like and build armylists that you consider fluffy, so when a new codex drops you wont have to sell everything and instead, some of your units will get worse and others will get better.
And losing every game because you picked the wrong faction or units isn't any fun either. It's not about competitive vs fluffy it's about some units being outright garbage in either kind of list.
I disagree.
There are, of course, massive disparities in power level between various units and books, but I do subscribe to the opinion that one should collect an army that one feels excited and passionate about doing so. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but the notion of collecting/purchasing a set list/army seems a relatively new idea, and yes, if one buys a list to capitalise on the new hotness, one doesn't have a huge right to gnash and wail when a new edition or codex invalidates it.
Don't get me wrong, I would love for every single unit in my collection to be a viable choice, if not in any list, at least in one designed to capitalise on it's strengths, but, for all the things I disagree with in matters GW, I do believe the 'right' way to collect an army is to choose one that you have some connection to, and build a collection of models (not necessarily GW models) you love. Not only do I feel that is a more rewarding and creative way of building a force, but it also insulates you from the pendulum swings of the ruleset.
Now, I'm sure there are people who can only afford a set amount of models, and are naturally going to try and get the best bang for their buck, but outside of a competitive environment, "bad" units often aren't so bad (broken remains broken, but that's a different issue) and if you're trying to play 40K competitively on a limited budget, then you're already on to a loser.
While I agree that any army/faction/codex is somewhat playayble, I do not agree to this on a unit basis.
As you pointed out, the riptide is an extremely powerful choice and is broken on all levels of competitiveness. I know a fluff player who reserved his single riptide to his display case, because he fealt it unfair and invalidating all his stealth suits.
But, on the same page, there are units that will always misably fail at whatever they try to do.
A prime example of this are banshess. Meant to be quick marine-slaughering combat experts, in reality they either die while crossing the battlefield, die while staning in front of their non-assault transport, or simply bounce off a unit of 10 stern guard because they only wound them on 5's while the space marine's shooting experts accidently shoot some of them dead in overwatch and then proceed to punch their counter-unit to death, since they still hit on 4+ and wound them on 3's. There literally is never a reason to ever pick banshees. Now, if someone was a great eldar fan in DoW2, where banshess jumped half a screen and then proceeded to slaugher anything in close combat without taking damage (you know, like the fluff says) he might have picked up three units of them, and maybe the corresponing phoenix lord. No matter how fluffy his opponent's army is going to be, and how much narrative they are forging, his banshees will always suck and fail to produce any results.
Hmmm. GW is in kind of a difficult position, isn't it?
On the one hand, they can't make massives changes to their rules or IP's, since that endangers their customers. On the other hand, Warhammer is an aging system and rule-relics are bloating it into a mess.
So, what is GW's stance right now?
As far as I understand it, GW still is a fair bit larger than any other tabletop company out there, and their strategy seems to match that.
They can't "buy" better rules, but they can up their production values (finecast experiments), have a faster release schedule, and a system that puts as little restrictions as possible on which modells you can purchase (unbound anybody?).
At least to me it seems, as if GW is just adopting a market strategy that plays to their strengths as a company, in a market which has seen a recent explosion of new tabletop systems.
"We are a modelling company, not a game company."
Of course I'm just talking out of my arse here, so... meh.
GW has a great deal of momentum working for them, and they're riding it in the hopes that a rapid release schedule and high quality models would keep people buying and thus prevent them from moving on to better game systems, in effect this is basically an attempt to reduce momentum loss.
Momentum is steadily drying out however, and they aren't really doing anything to build it back up again- a player lost is gone, probably permanently, and new players are few and far between, which is further compounded by the fact their most loyal costumers are the ones who already have extensive armies, and while this makes them invested and less likely to leave it also means they have comparatively less "need" to buy new models.
Nah, it's pretty good description of their strategy.
However, they are completely oblivious to their strategy angering their players, who will leave them long-term while new players aren't drawn to their product any more than to their competitors, because even seasoned veterans aren't advertising it, if not warning people to start.
It also doesn't take "massive" changes to get Warhammer 40k back to being an actual good game. 7th edition is written pretty well (compared to 5th, for example), if they continue down that road, and keep fixing rules issues with errata rather than obscure FAQs, that's one big point of criticism gone.
The second, and bigger one is harder to fix, balance. The problem is, GW doesn't really know how a typical game is supposed to work. They expect people to pick models somehow, put them on the table and somehow make it a fun game for both sides.
Issue is, the "somehows" need to be done by GW in order for any two people on this planet to be able to pick up a game with no issues.
A player must be able to walk into a GW store, ask an opponent for a point level and then be able to play him without a diplomatic act akin to creating peace in the middle east. "I brought a list for 750, 1500 and 1750" should be enough to start a game. Even the most competitive list should not be able to completely rip a semi-good list in half within two turns. If they want Lords of War in a regular game, they should just say so, or add it in the back as "fun alternative game styles". Telling your customer "I don't know, you decide" is bad design. Same goes for forgeworld.
If GW wants players to build lists represented in the fluff, rather than tzeench daemons summoning bloodletters and Draigo riding into battle alongside Logan Grimnar, they have to reward them for doing so. Why reward? Because no one likes being punished, and rewarding the opponent is basically the same without the bad taste.
The Space Marine codex does this with varying success, but you wont find a White Scars, Imperial Fists or Salamanders player fielding unfluffy lists. Why not do this for everyone? It's as easy as releasing a bunch of three-line bonuses for battle-forged armies. Pick up a Thousand Sons army bonus and be rewarded for fielding Tzeench Terminators, Thousand Sons cult troops and Sorcerers. Pick up a Kult of Speed army bonus and have your bike units all gain skilled rider or something. Pick up a "Invasion, Day One" army bonus and receive a bonus for all non-monstrous tyranid creatures. Suddenly all the tables would be filled with fluffy armies fighting each other.
Also, if they screw up, they need to stop being shy to tell us that they did a mistake and act as if nothing happened until the next codex or rules edition hopefully fixes it. What's so hard about telling people that Grimoire of True names wasn't supposed to create literally unkillable units, and putting out some sort of fix for it? What's so hard about admitting that the serpent shield turned out a little too good and maybe do something about it? Instead they twiddle their thumbs, act as if nothing happened (at least that's the impression they're giving) while pouring oil into the fire with things like "we don't want players to be able to handle everything".
None of this would scare any players away, quite the opposite. That's why it's so hard to understand why they act like they do.
Jidmah - this is off-topic but regarding your sig. I really don't think it sounds orkish. Almost anti-orkish in a way. Orks don't talk like they're slow and struggling over hard words. They just have a different vocabulary. Sorry - it's just bothering me because it really jars with how orks normally talk and seems like a superficial misunderstanding. I know it's not your wording - but I've just seen it in your sig. Also, I can't imagine Gork OR Mork looking kindly on an ork that asks for "protection". I know it's a parody of a prayer, but the whole thing is just really non-Orky.
It's an orkish parody on the imperial declaration of an exterminatus da kirmson barun posted on some thread.
That's probably why it sounds off to you, the original wording is the usual bloated "You are all fethed for reasons. The Emperor protects!" you get from space marines before obliterating a planet because of daemons, tyranids, orks, hersey or simply mixed up comunications
Jidmah wrote: It's an orkish parody on the imperial declaration of an exterminatus da kirmson barun posted on some thread.
That's probably why it sounds off to you, the original wording is the usual bloated "You are all fethed for reasons. The Emperor protects!" you get from space marines before obliterating a planet because of daemons, tyranids, orks, hersey or simply mixed up comunications
Yeah, I recognized where it's from. It just doesn't sound like anything an ork would say or how they would say it. You just don't hear them struggling over how to pronounce hard words - when an ork wants to say "KRUMP!" they say "KRUMP", not "deci... deca... decimate?" Anyway, just had to post because it was bothering me. No worries.
What I'm curious about is more how QE/LTRO is affecting GW stocks. The second they started the printing presses GW's stocks started rising until the start of this year, but they have tripled since the Helicopter Ben's plans kicked off...
