Since we have yet seen the Tyranids home galaxy or how far they have come throughout the universe, how large do you think they would be in army size, also, why have only certain tendrils come to our galaxy when the beacon that drew them here in the first place would have been felt throughout the entire hive?
Lobomalo wrote: Since we have yet seen the Tyranids home galaxy or how far they have come throughout the universe, how large do you think they would be in army size, also, why have only certain tendrils come to our galaxy when the beacon that drew them here in the first place would have been felt throughout the entire hive?
The Tyranid race at the very least has got to be the size of a galaxy. Either that or they're never ending, cause some higher power magics them into the universe. Far from undefeatable though. Even if they're never ending. If they can die, then they still have a limited amount of resources and bodies. However brief the amount of time for that limit. I also doubt tyranids can exhaust the Imperiums supply of manpower. Other factions, they probably can. Not the Imperiums. At the current 41st millennia, mankind breeds like roaches that have the sex drive of bunnies. Cute cuddly soft bunnies.
If they were smarter than man, or superior, the Imperium of man would have been dead already. Think of it like man and wolves. Wolves have not proven themselves superior to man yet. And I doubt they ever will. Or roaches and man.
-But tyranids are much deadlier than wolves and more viral than roaches.
And the Imperium is much deadlier and numerous than modern day man, or ancient man.
Lobomalo wrote: Since we have yet seen the Tyranids home galaxy or how far they have come throughout the universe, how large do you think they would be in army size, also, why have only certain tendrils come to our galaxy when the beacon that drew them here in the first place would have been felt throughout the entire hive?
The Tyranid race at the very least has got to be the size of a galaxy. Either that or they're never ending, cause some higher power magics them into the universe. Far from undefeatable though. Even if they're never ending. If they can die, then they still have a limited amount of resources and bodies. However brief the amount of time for that limit. I also doubt tyranids can exhaust the Imperiums supply of manpower. Other factions, they probably can. Not the Imperiums. At the current 41st millennia, mankind breeds like roaches that have the sex drive of bunnies. Cute cuddly soft bunnies.
Dafuq?
Tyranids are almost certainly not the size of the galaxy. While they have indeed consumed twelve galaxies, the Tyranids would be starving and constantly losing biomass as they traveled for the ~2.5 million or greater light years in the void where there would be absolutely nothing to feed on. Those arriving at the Milky Way are starving, desperate, and probably fairly pissed off and feeling cannibalistic if things get desperate. Plus we have no reason to even believe that the Nids actually encountered any powerful hostile race before with the technology of the Imperium or Eldar- the only major faction we know they might have encountered previously are the Orks who are scattered across the Local Group (or possibly further). The 'Nids have finite resources as the Imperium, Tau (with may sue plotshield powers), Dark Eldar, or Necrons.
The main hope for the Nids really is to feed off the Orks. Who almost seem like perfect symbiotic organisms that fit the needs of both races. Orks are a functionally infinite food supply for the nids, and Tyranids are a functionally infinite fight for the Orks.
Lobomalo wrote: Since we have yet seen the Tyranids home galaxy or how far they have come throughout the universe, how large do you think they would be in army size, also, why have only certain tendrils come to our galaxy when the beacon that drew them here in the first place would have been felt throughout the entire hive?
The Tyranid race at the very least has got to be the size of a galaxy. Either that or they're never ending, cause some higher power magics them into the universe. Far from undefeatable though. Even if they're never ending. If they can die, then they still have a limited amount of resources and bodies. However brief the amount of time for that limit. I also doubt tyranids can exhaust the Imperiums supply of manpower. Other factions, they probably can. Not the Imperiums. At the current 41st millennia, mankind breeds like roaches that have the sex drive of bunnies. Cute cuddly soft bunnies.
Dafuq?
Tyranids are almost certainly not the size of the galaxy. While they have indeed consumed twelve galaxies, the Tyranids would be starving and constantly losing biomass as they traveled for the ~2.5 million or greater light years in the void where there would be absolutely nothing to feed on. Those arriving at the Milky Way are starving, desperate, and probably fairly pissed off and feeling cannibalistic if things get desperate. Plus we have no reason to even believe that the Nids actually encountered any powerful hostile race before with the technology of the Imperium or Eldar- the only major faction we know they might have encountered previously are the Orks who are scattered across the Local Group (or possibly further). The 'Nids have finite resources as the Imperium, Tau (with may sue plotshield powers), Dark Eldar, or Necrons.
The main hope for the Nids really is to feed off the Orks. Who almost seem like perfect symbiotic organisms that fit the needs of both races. Orks are a functionally infinite food supply for the nids, and Tyranids are a functionally infinite fight for the Orks.
They could always feed on each other, consuming their own biomass and making more of themselves in a never ending cycle
Lobomalo wrote: But the Tyranids are quite intelligent though. Not to mention they can adapt to anything anyone throws at them
And mankind has proven itself to be exceptional in that field too. The Orks never wiped us out yet. What did it take to destroy the Roman Empire? Multiply the strength of the Roman Empire and its technology by ten thousand. That's the Imperium. You need something that strong to take out the Imperium. I think Tyranids and Orks could do it if they worked together. Or even the Necrons. But not in their current situation. There needs to be a game changer for that to happen. So far, there hasn't been a game changer for the past 10,000 years. Maybe the 13th Black Crusade is it. Maybe 1000 worlds would riot and rebel at the same time. Who knows.
Tyranids are almost certainly not the size of the galaxy.
Well, if you said they consumed 12 galaxies before, then I think theres a chance they might be that big. A galaxy contains more than enough resources for 100 races the size of the Imperium for 1000 years. And according to the laws of physics, none of it is going anywhere any time soon.
Lobomalo wrote: Since we have yet seen the Tyranids home galaxy or how far they have come throughout the universe, how large do you think they would be in army size, also, why have only certain tendrils come to our galaxy when the beacon that drew them here in the first place would have been felt throughout the entire hive?
The Tyranid race at the very least has got to be the size of a galaxy. Either that or they're never ending, cause some higher power magics them into the universe. Far from undefeatable though. Even if they're never ending. If they can die, then they still have a limited amount of resources and bodies. However brief the amount of time for that limit. I also doubt tyranids can exhaust the Imperiums supply of manpower. Other factions, they probably can. Not the Imperiums. At the current 41st millennia, mankind breeds like roaches that have the sex drive of bunnies. Cute cuddly soft bunnies.
Dafuq?
Tyranids are almost certainly not the size of the galaxy. While they have indeed consumed twelve galaxies, the Tyranids would be starving and constantly losing biomass as they traveled for the ~2.5 million or greater light years in the void where there would be absolutely nothing to feed on. Those arriving at the Milky Way are starving, desperate, and probably fairly pissed off and feeling cannibalistic if things get desperate. Plus we have no reason to even believe that the Nids actually encountered any powerful hostile race before with the technology of the Imperium or Eldar- the only major faction we know they might have encountered previously are the Orks who are scattered across the Local Group (or possibly further). The 'Nids have finite resources as the Imperium, Tau (with may sue plotshield powers), Dark Eldar, or Necrons.
The main hope for the Nids really is to feed off the Orks. Who almost seem like perfect symbiotic organisms that fit the needs of both races. Orks are a functionally infinite food supply for the nids, and Tyranids are a functionally infinite fight for the Orks.
They could always feed on each other, consuming their own biomass and making more of themselves in a never ending cycle
Biomass is a limited resource. There is no such thing as a hundred percent effeciency, if they eat their own they will lose energy but prevent starvation. But while traveling in the void, the Tyranids will almost certainly take a massive hit to their total biomass and stored energy, and certainly won't be galaxy sized.
Also, Orks haven't wiped out humanity because pigs will fly before the Orks unite under a single banner. If the Orks ever united, everyone besides Chaos, Eldar, and Necrons would just be dead. Their numbers and pysker energy would drown the IOM, and it's even stated as such in the Codex.
Lobomalo wrote: But the Tyranids are quite intelligent though. Not to mention they can adapt to anything anyone throws at them
And mankind has proven itself to be exceptional in that field too. The Orks never wiped us out yet. What did it take to destroy the Roman Empire? Multiply the strength of the Roman Empire and its technology by ten thousand. That's the Imperium. You need something that strong to take out the Imperium. I think Tyranids and Orks could do it if they worked together. Or even the Necrons. But not in their current situation. There needs to be a game changer for that to happen. So far, there hasn't been a game changer for the past 10,000 years. Maybe the 13th Black Crusade is it. Maybe 1000 worlds would riot and rebel at the same time. Who knows.
Tyranids are almost certainly not the size of the galaxy.
Well, if you said they consumed 12 galaxies before, then I think theres a chance they might be that big. A galaxy contains more than enough resources for 100 races the size of the Imperium for 1000 years. And according to the laws of physics, none of it is going anywhere any time soon.
Energy is not free. Energy is not infinite. It doesn't matter if the Nids ate twelve galaxies, they'd have lost energy they consumed while flying between planets, which is painstakingly slow for nids. They'd have lost energy in any wars they participated in. They'd have lost energy producing new biomorphs. They'd have lost a LOT of energy between galaxies. They also do not gain the total energy of an object when devouring it- they'd lose some of its energy content and waste energy of the biomorph eating it, although hopefully at a net gain, but not a maximum one.
Hell, the way Nids consume biomass in the first place is hilariously stupid. Something like a gaunt, carnifex, etc devours organic matter, then when the hive fleet picks up it jumps into a pool of acid to be consumed by the Hive Fleet.... but doing so loses the energy it consumed to return to the hive fleet, AND the energy the Carnifex also contained.
The nids would be better off just evolving their bioplasma to the point that they just need hydrogen, the most common element in the damn galaxy, to use for organic fusion power. Which would be a HELL lot more effecient in energy production and completely scrap the need to engage in risky endeavors to consume organic matter in an entire galaxy.
Wyzilla wrote: Biomass is a limited resource. There is no such thing as a hundred percent effeciency,
We don't know that yet. We only know there is no such thing as 100% efficiency yet. And even then, we do know biological organisms here on earth have a pretty high percentage of efficiency. Compared to things we create anyway. Perhaps that's enough for traveling from one galaxy to another. And another thing we're guessing at is that chemical, gas, and substance can be converted to biomass. Thats where we think life began. We DO know that theres more than enough of that stuff in the Milky Way for us for the next centillion years. I could only assume the same is true for the 12 galaxies you said they consumed.
Lobomalo wrote: But the Tyranids are quite intelligent though. Not to mention they can adapt to anything anyone throws at them
And mankind has proven itself to be exceptional in that field too. The Orks never wiped us out yet. What did it take to destroy the Roman Empire? Multiply the strength of the Roman Empire and its technology by ten thousand. That's the Imperium. You need something that strong to take out the Imperium. I think Tyranids and Orks could do it if they worked together. Or even the Necrons. But not in their current situation. There needs to be a game changer for that to happen. So far, there hasn't been a game changer for the past 10,000 years. Maybe the 13th Black Crusade is it. Maybe 1000 worlds would riot and rebel at the same time. Who knows.
Tyranids are almost certainly not the size of the galaxy.
Well, if you said they consumed 12 galaxies before, then I think theres a chance they might be that big. A galaxy contains more than enough resources for 100 races the size of the Imperium for 1000 years. And according to the laws of physics, none of it is going anywhere any time soon.
It took politicians and laziness to bring down the Roman Empire btw
Lobomalo wrote: It took politicians and laziness to bring down the Roman Empire btw
You're right, that was one of things that brought it down. But the largest and most advance army in the world back then doesn't just disappear because politicians got lazy. Neither does its citizens.
Lobomalo wrote: It took politicians and laziness to bring down the Roman Empire btw
You're right, that was one of things that brought it down. But the largest and most advance army in the world back then doesn't just disappear because politicians got lazy. Neither does its citizens.
Yes, but because of this, anyone could have beat them, it only took a bunch of under-equipped and enraged barbarians to do it
Wyzilla wrote: Energy is not free. Energy is not infinite. It doesn't matter if the Nids ate twelve galaxies, they'd have lost energy they consumed while flying between planets, which is painstakingly slow for nids. They'd have lost energy in any wars they participated in. They'd have lost energy producing new biomorphs. They'd have lost a LOT of energy between galaxies. They also do not gain the total energy of an object when devouring it- they'd lose some of its energy content and waste energy of the biomorph eating it, although hopefully at a net gain, but not a maximum one.
Hell, the way Nids consume biomass in the first place is hilariously stupid. Something like a gaunt, carnifex, etc devours organic matter, then when the hive fleet picks up it jumps into a pool of acid to be consumed by the Hive Fleet.... but doing so loses the energy it consumed to return to the hive fleet, AND the energy the Carnifex also contained.
You're thinking we lose energy during conversion the same way a car does. We're not that bad.
Wyzilla wrote: Biomass is a limited resource. There is no such thing as a hundred percent effeciency,
We don't know that yet. We only know there is no such thing as 100% efficiency yet. And even then, we do know biological organisms here on earth have a pretty high percentage of efficiency. Compared to things we create anyway. Perhaps that's enough for traveling from one galaxy to another. And another thing we're guessing at is that chemical, gas, and substance can be converted to biomass. Thats where we think life began. We DO know that theres more than enough of that stuff in the Milky Way for us for the next centillion years. I could only assume the same is true for the 12 galaxies you said they consumed.
..... No, there isn't, and the Nids eat ORGANIC matter, they don't eat metals or rocks and pass of far superior sources of energy. In the Milky Way to our knowledge there is only ONE planet of actually supporting organic life, and on other planets the basic building blocks are still in fairly pitiful amounts for a massive species like the Tyranids. The amount of oxygen is pitiful to the amount of energy blown during travel, combat, evolution, and hell even goddamn thinking is going to be burning energy by the second as Tyranids operate by an organic gestalt hive mind. And there's absolutely no reason to even believe that 100% efficiency is possible, as firstly is it not only it [i]impossible[/b] and physically impossible and would require completely breaking physics... just. Seriously, don't talk about subjects you don't know about. You might as well start talking about how the Tyranids discovered Cold Fusion while you're at it.
But if the Tyranids were truly intelligent, they'd realize the most efficient means of gathering energy is fusion power, the resources for which are stupidly abundant and compose the majority of the universe that is made of physical matter (apposed to Dark Matter, which is believed to make up the majority of the entire universe).
Lobomalo wrote: It took politicians and laziness to bring down the Roman Empire btw
You're right, that was one of things that brought it down. But the largest and most advance army in the world back then doesn't just disappear because politicians got lazy. Neither does its citizens.
Yes, but because of this, anyone could have beat them, it only took a bunch of under-equipped and enraged barbarians to do it
Well, I doubt anyone could just beat the Roman military. I think it'll take a lot more than that. And history has evidence that it did indeed take a lot more than that.
Wyzilla wrote: ..... No, there isn't, and the Nids eat ORGANIC matter, they don't eat metals or rocks and pass of far superior sources of energy. In the Milky Way to our knowledge there is only ONE planet of actually supporting organic life, and on other planets the basic building blocks are still in fairly pitiful amounts for a massive species like the Tyranids. The amount of oxygen is pitiful to the amount of energy blown during travel, combat, evolution, and hell even goddamn thinking is going to be burning energy by the second as Tyranids operate by an organic gestalt hive mind. And there's absolutely no reason to even believe that 100% efficiency is possible, as firstly is it not only it [i]impossible[/b] and physically impossible and would require completely breaking physics... just. Seriously, don't talk about subjects you don't know about. You might as well start talking about how the Tyranids discovered Cold Fusion while you're at it.
But if the Tyranids were truly intelligent, they'd realize the most efficient means of gathering energy is fusion power, the resources for which are stupidly abundant and compose the majority of the universe that is made of physical matter (apposed to Dark Matter, which is believed to make up the majority of the entire universe).
But they're simply not using fusion. And we don't know if its impossible yet. Just because we discover new science doesn't mean completely throwing away scientific theory, it simply means amending it. I also think I know more about physics than you do. I am also constantly aware of the fact that we're talking about sci-fi here. And the only limits to technology and science is our imagination. Tell me, what does it take to split an atom. And is it possible?
Ashiraya wrote: Wyzilla, you are trying to use logic to judge 40K races. Abandon this hopeless endeavour at once.
There's no evidence supporting Tyranids operating at 100% efficiency, by the fact they need to eat in the first place. If you could consume energy with no waste at all, there would be no need to eat anything else in the first place.
Wyzilla wrote: ..... No, there isn't, and the Nids eat ORGANIC matter, they don't eat metals or rocks and pass of far superior sources of energy. In the Milky Way to our knowledge there is only ONE planet of actually supporting organic life, and on other planets the basic building blocks are still in fairly pitiful amounts for a massive species like the Tyranids. The amount of oxygen is pitiful to the amount of energy blown during travel, combat, evolution, and hell even goddamn thinking is going to be burning energy by the second as Tyranids operate by an organic gestalt hive mind. And there's absolutely no reason to even believe that 100% efficiency is possible, as firstly is it not only it impossible and physically impossible and would require completely breaking physics... just. Seriously, don't talk about subjects you don't know about. You might as well start talking about how the Tyranids discovered Cold Fusion while you're at it.
But if the Tyranids were truly intelligent, they'd realize the most efficient means of gathering energy is fusion power, the resources for which are stupidly abundant and compose the majority of the universe that is made of physical matter (apposed to Dark Matter, which is believed to make up the majority of the entire universe).
But they're simply not using fusion. And we don't know if its impossible yet. Just because we discover new science doesn't mean completely throwing away scientific theory, it simply means amending it. I also think I know more about physics than you do. I am also constantly aware of the fact that we're talking about sci-fi here. And the only limits to technology and science is our imagination. Tell me, what does it take to split an atom. And is it possible?
What? We split atoms all the time. Hell we've even split one and put it back together. It's splitting hydrogen that's the problem, and even that we're getting close to succeeding in within the next century. Fusion power is just around the corner. http://phys.org/news/2012-06-physicists-atom-quantum-mechanics-precision.html
I've tried arguing the point that the way Tyranids operate is completely and utterly inefficient before, Wyzilla. Trust me, it's an exercise in futility.
Just let the Tyranids have the bugs from Starship Troopers/Aliens from Aliens/Zerg and try not to think too hard about it.
As for their size I don't think it's really that big. Sure, consuming 12 galaxies or so seems like a lot but working with a ineffecient system like eating organic matter has the issue of diminishing returns. As the Tyranid race grows is size so does the sheer amount of energy they expend. It gets to the point where a good portion of the biomass consumed, perhaps most of it, is used to just sustain the Hive Fleet rather than grow it. Then you run into the problem of having too large of a Hive Fleet. This issue presents itself in a scenario where a galaxy they decided to consume doesn't have the biomass they need just to sustain what they have resulting in the death of much of their forces. And, given the Tyranids seemingly mindless way they go about expanding their forces, this may have happened more than once.
I would hazard to guess that while the Tyranid race may be large it certainly isn't as large as Games Workshop would have you believe.
Oh, look, there I go overthinking things. Okay, so, going by GW logic the Tyranids are near infinite in number because they have consumed 12 galaxies and have almost all of the biomass they obtained in additional forces.
TheCustomLime wrote: I've tried arguing the point that the way Tyranids operate is completely and utterly inefficient before, Wyzilla. Trust me, it's an exercise in futility.
Just let the Tyranids have the bugs from Starship Troopers/Aliens from Aliens/Zerg and try not to think too hard about it.
They're stupid as hell, but at least they might work. What I'm pointing out is that you have to an idiot to think the Tyranids are capable of consuming and living at 100% efficiency and not waste any energy at all. Which is impossible and stupid and would remove their need to create energy in the first place. It's simply a Non Sequitur. If they're 100% efficient, they don't need to eat in the first place, they're a perpetual free energy machine. Hell even 90% would still be just stupid, but at least Tyranids would still need to eat.
TheCustomLime wrote: I've tried arguing the point that the way Tyranids operate is completely and utterly inefficient before, Wyzilla. Trust me, it's an exercise in futility.
Just let the Tyranids have the bugs from Starship Troopers/Aliens from Aliens/Zerg and try not to think too hard about it.
As for their size I don't think it's really that big. Sure, consuming 12 galaxies or so seems like a lot but working with a ineffecient system like eating organic matter has the issue of diminishing returns. As the Tyranid race grows is size so does the sheer amount of energy they expend. It gets to the point where a good portion of the biomass consumed, perhaps most of it, is used to just sustain the Hive Fleet rather than grow it. Then you run into the problem of having too large of a Hive Fleet. This issue presents itself in a scenario where a galaxy they decided to consume doesn't have the biomass they need just to sustain what they have resulting in the death of much of their forces. And, given the Tyranids seemingly mindless way they go about expanding their forces, this may have happened more than once.
I would hazard to guess that while the Tyranid race may be large it certainly isn't as large as Games Workshop would have you believe.
Oh, look, there I go overthinking things. Okay, so, going by GW logic the Tyranids are near infinite in number because they have consumed 12 galaxies and have almost all of the biomass they obtained in additional forces.
Is there anything at all that actually points to the Tyranids having infinite numbers or something like it? Because I just recall the vague "there's more behind them", but nothing pointing them to being in the trillions of millions department. Plus the fact they eat proves they do indeed suffer from a decay in energy consumption and are not fully efficient and break Thermodynamics over the knee.
You are applying modern day logic and physics to a universe approximately 39,000 years from now. We would know much more then and more likely than not would have found a way to be 100% efficient.
Wyzilla wrote: No, it is impossible and you just completely eradicated any hope of you actually claiming you understand physics if you think 100% efficiency is ever possible. Thermodynamics would like to have a word for you, and no, it does not make exceptions.
Yea, but no one here does think its possible for 100% efficiency. I do think we can get close though. Not for use as an energy source though. No one here thinks thats the only possible way for tyranids to survive. You're assuming we think that. We're also talking about tyranids here. We don't know anything of how they work. I'm guessing at it. But I'm not going to guess at how fantasy/sci-fi works based off of what we know. Because if we knew how it works, it would be viable already.
LumenPraebeo wrote: If they were smarter than man, or superior, the Imperium of man would have been dead already. Think of it like man and wolves. Wolves have not proven themselves superior to man yet. And I doubt they ever will. Or roaches and man.
-But tyranids are much deadlier than wolves and more viral than roaches.
And the Imperium is much deadlier and numerous than modern day man, or ancient man.
The Even if the Imperium out-numbered the Tyranids with regards to manpower (they don't), the Imperium has one fatal flow: It uses planets.
Nids don't use planets, they just strip mine them and keep going. Ergo every time they take a planet from the Imperium they not only gain ground and kill that many 'umies, but they make it so there's absolutely no potential for that planet to be a threat ever again. It will never be resettled, repopulated, or re-established. It's gone.
Lobomalo wrote: You are applying modern day logic and physics to a universe approximately 39,000 years from now. We would know much more then and more likely than not would have found a way to be 100% efficient.
...No. I really don't think you understand this. Granted, there are some parts of physics we know gak-all about, especially Quantum physics, which will likely look very very different in the future. But Thermodynamics is one of those absolute laws of the universe that cannot be broken- it doesn't matter how advanced you are or how old your civilization is, it's an absolute rule that doesn't change so long as you're in this universe. While I could see something like Daemons being completely efficient by them coming from an alternate universe/dimension that does not abide by the physical laws of ours, nids? They're under by our rules and have to play by them.... or else. It's the simple fact. set in stone, that energy cannot be completely applied to something without losing some of it. This isn't going to change inf thirty eight thousand years from now. We might maybe cheat by entering a different universe, but in our home universe? There's no getting around it.
Plus again, there is absolutely NO evidence pointing to Tyranids operating at 100% efficiency! If something was actually 100% efficient, it would not need to eat in the first place. However we do know Tyranids need to eat, which means they do suffer from a diminishing return of energy, and that their numbers do have a cap on the bell curve. There is most definitely a maximum number of organisms Tyranids as a civilization can support before they implode and are threatened with extinction by overpopulation, the only solution to which is cannibalism. The thing though is that we don't know what exactly this number caps at, and if they've reached it in the past or are heading to it.
The most logical conclusion however is that Tyranid numbers are diminished from their full glory after they've immediately consumed a galaxy, and are having to build up again for war again. We've seen multiple parts of the Black Library pointing to the Tyranid Hive Fleets ridding themselves of unnecessary biomorphs and consuming them for later use. They also sent the Genestealers in at an earlier time, maybe even long in the past as probes to find biomass to consume, which also points to the Tyranids being fearful of wasting energy, which means it sure isn't free for them.
LumenPraebeo wrote: If they were smarter than man, or superior, the Imperium of man would have been dead already. Think of it like man and wolves. Wolves have not proven themselves superior to man yet. And I doubt they ever will. Or roaches and man.
-But tyranids are much deadlier than wolves and more viral than roaches. And the Imperium is much deadlier and numerous than modern day man, or ancient man.
The Even if the Imperium out-numbered the Tyranids with regards to manpower (they don't), the Imperium has one fatal flow: It uses planets.
Nids don't use planets, they just strip mine them and keep going. Ergo every time they take a planet from the Imperium they not only gain ground and kill that many 'umies, but they make it so there's absolutely no potential for that planet to be a threat ever again. It will never be resettled, repopulated, or re-established. It's gone.
Orks can terraform it and put organic matter back down if a Rokk hits it. Hence why the Orks and Tyranids are a perfect match as symbiotic civilizations, or at least the perfect fitting puzzle piece that enables stability for both factions. Tyranids are the farmers that reap what the Orks sow.
Orks can terraform it and put organic matter back down if a Rokk hits it. Hence why the Orks and Tyranids are a perfect match as symbiotic civilizations, or at least the perfect fitting puzzle piece that enables stability for both factions. Tyranids are the farmers that reap what the Orks sow.
It's a damned shame that the Imperium isn't made up of Orks then aint it?
Also, I'd kind of argue against Orks being able to do that. I mean Tyranids leave -nothing- behind. No precious metals, no water, no atmosphere, no dirt, no nothing. There's literally just rock; they take everything else.
Orks are hardy, but I'm skeptical of their ability to ekk out a living on literally rock alone. At absolute best they'd be able to salvage and re-use what they came to the planet with, but the fact that they have nothing on the planet to use means that they'd eventually just be stuck there bashing eachothers heads in whilst running around butt naked.
Basically they wouldn't be common Orkish low tech, they'd be no tech. Not even rock weapons; just rocks.
Orks can terraform it and put organic matter back down if a Rokk hits it. Hence why the Orks and Tyranids are a perfect match as symbiotic civilizations, or at least the perfect fitting puzzle piece that enables stability for both factions. Tyranids are the farmers that reap what the Orks sow.
It's a damned shame that the Imperium isn't made up of Orks then aint it?
Also, I'd kind of argue against Orks being able to do that. I mean Tyranids leave -nothing- behind. No precious metals, no water, no atmosphere, no dirt, no nothing. There's literally just rock; they take everything else.
Orks are hardy, but I'm skeptical of their ability to ekk out a living on literally rock alone. At absolute best they'd be able to salvage and re-use what they came to the planet with, but the fact that they have nothing on the planet to use means that they'd eventually just be stuck there bashing eachothers heads in whilst running around butt naked.
Basically they wouldn't be common Orkish low tech, they'd be no tech. Not even rock weapons; just rocks.
I'm pretty sure they could survive. The only real problem would the process taking a couple centuries or maybe a millennia to rebuild the atmosphere, but all that matters is that the magnetic core of the planet is still intact to shield it from gamma rays. But Orks seem perfeclty suited to sweeping through a galaxy the 'Nids cleared and repopulating it with life.
Lobomalo wrote: You are applying modern day logic and physics to a universe approximately 39,000 years from now. We would know much more then and more likely than not would have found a way to be 100% efficient.
...No. I really don't think you understand this. Granted, there are some parts of physics we know gak-all about, especially Quantum physics, which will likely look very very different in the future. But Thermodynamics is one of those absolute laws of the universe that cannot be broken- it doesn't matter how advanced you are or how old your civilization is, it's an absolute rule that doesn't change so long as you're in this universe. While I could see something like Daemons being completely efficient by them coming from an alternate universe/dimension that does not abide by the physical laws of ours, nids? They're under by our rules and have to play by them.... or else. It's the simple fact. set in stone, that energy cannot be completely applied to something without losing some of it. This isn't going to change inf thirty eight thousand years from now. We might maybe cheat by entering a different universe, but in our home universe? There's no getting around it.
Plus again, there is absolutely NO evidence pointing to Tyranids operating at 100% efficiency! If something was actually 100% efficient, it would not need to eat in the first place. However we do know Tyranids need to eat, which means they do suffer from a diminishing return of energy, and that their numbers do have a cap on the bell curve. There is most definitely a maximum number of organisms Tyranids as a civilization can support before they implode and are threatened with extinction by overpopulation, the only solution to which is cannibalism. The thing though is that we don't know what exactly this number caps at, and if they've reached it in the past or are heading to it.
The most logical conclusion however is that Tyranid numbers are diminished from their full glory after they've immediately consumed a galaxy, and are having to build up again for war again. We've seen multiple parts of the Black Library pointing to the Tyranid Hive Fleets ridding themselves of unnecessary biomorphs and consuming them for later use. They also sent the Genestealers in at an earlier time, maybe even long in the past as probes to find biomass to consume, which also points to the Tyranids being fearful of wasting energy, which means it sure isn't free for them.
LumenPraebeo wrote: If they were smarter than man, or superior, the Imperium of man would have been dead already. Think of it like man and wolves. Wolves have not proven themselves superior to man yet. And I doubt they ever will. Or roaches and man.
-But tyranids are much deadlier than wolves and more viral than roaches.
And the Imperium is much deadlier and numerous than modern day man, or ancient man.
The Even if the Imperium out-numbered the Tyranids with regards to manpower (they don't), the Imperium has one fatal flow: It uses planets.
Nids don't use planets, they just strip mine them and keep going. Ergo every time they take a planet from the Imperium they not only gain ground and kill that many 'umies, but they make it so there's absolutely no potential for that planet to be a threat ever again. It will never be resettled, repopulated, or re-established. It's gone.
Orks can terraform it and put organic matter back down if a Rokk hits it. Hence why the Orks and Tyranids are a perfect match as symbiotic civilizations, or at least the perfect fitting puzzle piece that enables stability for both factions. Tyranids are the farmers that reap what the Orks sow.
Always wanted to quote this.
"The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."
Just because we don't know that they are 100% efficient, does not mean that we don't. A creature that can continuously evolve to adapt to absolutely anything it wants sounds efficient to me. The Tyranids simply require bio-mass to initiate the process, but where in any lore does it state they actually need food?
Wyzilla wrote: Plus again, there is absolutely NO evidence pointing to Tyranids operating at 100% efficiency! If something was actually 100% efficient, it would not need to eat in the first place. However we do know Tyranids need to eat, which means they do suffer from a diminishing return of energy, and that their numbers do have a cap on the bell curve. There is most definitely a maximum number of organisms Tyranids as a civilization can support before they implode and are threatened with extinction by overpopulation, the only solution to which is cannibalism. The thing though is that we don't know what exactly this number caps at, and if they've reached it in the past or are heading to it.
But there's no evidence of that happening either.And I don't think they're gonna die from overpopulation either. From what we know so far, they do have enough life forms to cover a large portion of the galaxy. So what we do know is that its possible they're bigger than that.
What are you gonna do if the next Tyranid codex that comes out says Tyranids waste no energy whatsoever when they're on the move?
Of course Tyranids can die out by overpopulation! There is only so much biomass a galaxy can have at any given point because the conditions that form it is very specific. Hell, if a planet is off by a few hundred thousand kilometers (A very, very, very small distance on a cosmological scale) off of the habitable zone then it will not have the food the Tyranids need. So, if the Nids gorged themselves on a galaxy that just happened to have a lot of biomass and came upon a galaxy that didn't... then that would be bad. Life forms need constant energy input to sustain themselves. If they came upon a galaxy that completely lacked biomass then they would go extinct.
In fact, I would say that is the ultimate fate of the Nids. Once they happen to run into a lifeless galaxy (Or run out galaxies they can reach without expending all of their biomass) then they will wither and die out.
I'd put the Tyranids at an unfathomable amount of creatures, but I don't think they'll actually be able to finish of this galaxy, especially with the fact that most planets that could be are teeming with Orks. Or maybe they will, and the next galaxy is even more fethed than ours was. Also, I always got the impression that Tyranids consume all life and then using the energy they've got from that galaxy to travel to the next, so essentially they start at the same point each time, at a point of near starvation.
Lobomalo wrote: You are applying modern day logic and physics to a universe approximately 39,000 years from now. We would know much more then and more likely than not would have found a way to be 100% efficient.
...No. I really don't think you understand this. Granted, there are some parts of physics we know gak-all about, especially Quantum physics, which will likely look very very different in the future. But Thermodynamics is one of those absolute laws of the universe that cannot be broken- it doesn't matter how advanced you are or how old your civilization is, it's an absolute rule that doesn't change so long as you're in this universe. While I could see something like Daemons being completely efficient by them coming from an alternate universe/dimension that does not abide by the physical laws of ours, nids? They're under by our rules and have to play by them.... or else. It's the simple fact. set in stone, that energy cannot be completely applied to something without losing some of it. This isn't going to change inf thirty eight thousand years from now. We might maybe cheat by entering a different universe, but in our home universe? There's no getting around it.
Plus again, there is absolutely NO evidence pointing to Tyranids operating at 100% efficiency! If something was actually 100% efficient, it would not need to eat in the first place. However we do know Tyranids need to eat, which means they do suffer from a diminishing return of energy, and that their numbers do have a cap on the bell curve. There is most definitely a maximum number of organisms Tyranids as a civilization can support before they implode and are threatened with extinction by overpopulation, the only solution to which is cannibalism. The thing though is that we don't know what exactly this number caps at, and if they've reached it in the past or are heading to it.
The most logical conclusion however is that Tyranid numbers are diminished from their full glory after they've immediately consumed a galaxy, and are having to build up again for war again. We've seen multiple parts of the Black Library pointing to the Tyranid Hive Fleets ridding themselves of unnecessary biomorphs and consuming them for later use. They also sent the Genestealers in at an earlier time, maybe even long in the past as probes to find biomass to consume, which also points to the Tyranids being fearful of wasting energy, which means it sure isn't free for them.
LumenPraebeo wrote: If they were smarter than man, or superior, the Imperium of man would have been dead already. Think of it like man and wolves. Wolves have not proven themselves superior to man yet. And I doubt they ever will. Or roaches and man.
-But tyranids are much deadlier than wolves and more viral than roaches.
And the Imperium is much deadlier and numerous than modern day man, or ancient man.
The Even if the Imperium out-numbered the Tyranids with regards to manpower (they don't), the Imperium has one fatal flow: It uses planets.
Nids don't use planets, they just strip mine them and keep going. Ergo every time they take a planet from the Imperium they not only gain ground and kill that many 'umies, but they make it so there's absolutely no potential for that planet to be a threat ever again. It will never be resettled, repopulated, or re-established. It's gone.
Orks can terraform it and put organic matter back down if a Rokk hits it. Hence why the Orks and Tyranids are a perfect match as symbiotic civilizations, or at least the perfect fitting puzzle piece that enables stability for both factions. Tyranids are the farmers that reap what the Orks sow.
Always wanted to quote this.
"The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."
Just because we don't know that they are 100% efficient, does not mean that we don't. A creature that can continuously evolve to adapt to absolutely anything it wants sounds efficient to me. The Tyranids simply require bio-mass to initiate the process, but where in any lore does it state they actually need food?
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGH
Do you even know what I'm talking about when discussing energy efficiency? Do you know what the Three Laws of Thermodynamics are, or what they mean? Have you completed a high school physics class? Because those are the only reasons I can come up with for this just... asinine line of reasoning of yours that makes about as much sense as a person claiming that there are in fact an actual species of Unicorns on earth, or Bigfoot is real, because "hur duur" a lack of evidence doesn't mean they don't exist. No. That's not how the Scientific Method has ever worked. You need evidence to back up your claims, and no, a lack of evidence is not ever evidence if you are claiming something. There isn't a single goddamn reason why we should ever think Tyranids ignore the third law of Thermodynamics and are perpetual energy machines that don't need any sort of food or fuel to move. Because you kinda need a lot of evidence to back up a claim that something completely and utterly breaks physical laws and is a complete Non Sequitur to its own existence in the fiction in the first place.
[And where it states they need food? The fact that Tyranids survive by biomass, and common fething sense tells us they don't break a solid law of how this universe works. The Tyranids eat. Something that operates at 100% efficiency does not need to really eat at all.. It's redundant as they could make photosynthesis efficient. There would be absolutely no reason for Tyranids to bother eating galaxies, hell even move. At complete efficiency and breaking thermodynamics you really wouldn't have to do anything besides maybe just absorb calories from the sun and remain static. You wouldn't have to bother moving, hell the best evolutionary path your could walk would be to become a glorified tree with a nervous system. But the fact that Tyranids gamble their energy reserves like any other predator and fight desperately against other lifeforms with claw, tooth, and nail for food blows apart any argument that they're 100% efficient, because it's be counter-productive for such an animal.
And how the feth does something that can continuously evolve at a rapid pace sound like an efficient animal to you? Hell that means they're probably expending more energy than normal and have a massive metabolism. Plus it's a stupid statement given that all life constantly evolves, and bacteria probably evolve at a faster rate than Tyranids could ever hope fore, and bacteria do not break the third law of thermodynamics despite being some of the most efficient life in existence and the most adaptable.
Now while I'm taking deep breaths to calm down and stop this headache, could you please just kindly read the Laws of Thermodynamics on wikipedia and/or watch a lecture on youtube on why 100% efficiency is impossible? It'd save me a lot of tears and headaches.
Now I'm sorry if I come off overly hostile, I admit I have anger issues, but I really don't respond well to a person basically trying to argue that gravity isn't a known fact and that, in our universe, you can fall "up". Or that Bigfoot's real. It makes the science nerd in me scream.
If you claim something you must be able to prove it.
I know, but I'll still try dammit. I just... ugh. It seriously makes my brain hurt to think somebody could seriously argue Tyranids are 100% energy effecient despite them being known as the Great Devourer. Plus silly things like a biological lifeform being more energy efficient than a Star. Hell even a hypothetical Antimatter Reactor wouldn't be that good.
Wyzilla wrote: I know, but I'll still try dammit. I just... ugh. It seriously makes my brain hurt to think somebody could seriously argue Tyranids are 100% energy effecient despite them being known as the Great Devourer. Plus silly things like a biological lifeform being more energy efficient than a Star. Hell even a hypothetical Antimatter Reactor wouldn't be that good.
You know what? now I change my mind, I DO think tyranids are 100% energy efficient now.
Lobomalo wrote: But the Tyranids already have surpassed the Imperiums manpower though, it just isn't all concentrated in one tendril.
Tyranids both breed and mature much faster than man does as well
they may, but they have to grow everything, which actually isnt the best way to fight a war. If you say lose an infantry division in a bombing attack, what that usually means is that the squishy components of the division. The vehicles, guns, supplies are often just fine, but the people are dead. Add new people and you have your infantry division again. A nid unit that gets bombed is dead, completely dead. Sure it can be reprocessed into new 'nid but time and energy are lost.
Which brings me to the next point. Races with arms armor and people have to sustain really only the people. While shipping an army across space, the people need food and reinforcements as they die, but the machines keep on chugging. 'nids on the other hand consume energy as they move always. They keep needing to be replaced as they are all mortal.
So how much did the 'nids have to spend getting from their galaxy to this one. They probably lost a lot of their galaxy beating power just preparing for inter galatic travel and then more on the trip here. Also did they send their forces at just one galaxy or did they divide them into 2+ parts and make for multiple galaxies. If only 1/10 of the invasion is actually headed for the milky way, the other 9/10th really arent a concern as they are too far away to contribute.
Which brings us to the hive mind. The hive mind is smart. It wants to consume all. It would not send 100% of it's forces in one direction. It would divide it's forces to conquer more galaxies at the same time. It would divide them down until it thinks it has a reasonable chance of still conquering any galaxy it encounters. Even if it sent everything it wouldnt have a 100% chance of success, as it doesnt really know what to expect in the new galaxy when it arrives. Similarly if it sent just a very small fleet to every galaxy, that small fleet might have some chance to succeed but most would probably be turned back.
So if the hive mind is intelligent, it would send a large enough fleet to the milky way to have a reasonable chance to win. In it's initial estimation probably 50-66%. But.... that is the initial estimate from far far away. The milkyway is home to a number of oddities, chaos, the god emperor, the necrons that not every galaxy would possess. Initially the 'nids must have thought there is a chance there is no life in the galaxy, there is a chance there is a united-strong-military that could defeat them, and there is a chance there is life that is disorganized and could be divided and defeated easily. The IoM is somewhere between united-strong and disorganized. It could be that the milky way is weaker to a 'nid attack than most and that upon reaching the outer rim the milkyway was doomed to be consumed. It could also be that the milkyway is strong, that some of those unique critters that the hive mind didnt know about are so powerful that the 'nids have no chance to win.
The 'nids obviously didnt expect the god emperor, as they didnt enter the galaxy heading straight for earth. Upon entering the galaxy and detecting the astronomican, they changed course, which indicates they realize the threat the emperor and the IoM represent to them.
So in conclusion, the 'nids are vast and powerful, but really not that much more powerful in the milkyway than anyone else. At least they are on the same scale. Probably much smaller than the IoM.
Wyzilla wrote: I know, but I'll still try dammit. I just... ugh. It seriously makes my brain hurt to think somebody could seriously argue Tyranids are 100% energy effecient despite them being known as the Great Devourer. Plus silly things like a biological lifeform being more energy efficient than a Star. Hell even a hypothetical Antimatter Reactor wouldn't be that good.
You know what? now I change my mind, I DO think tyranids are 100% energy efficient now.
So they violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics?
hmm if perpetual motion machines are possible in 40k, what else is possible.
Also if they are 100% efficient, why head out and conquer stuff?
You are still applying modern day principles to a fictitious futuristic universe with faster than light travel and the ability to move into different dimensions.
Wyzilla wrote: And where it states they need food? The fact that Tyranids survive by biomass, and common fething sense tells us they don't break a solid law of how this universe works. The Tyranids eat. Something that operates at 100% efficiency does not need to really eat at all.. It's redundant as they could make photosynthesis efficient. There would be absolutely no reason for Tyranids to bother eating galaxies, hell even move. At complete efficiency and breaking thermodynamics you really wouldn't have to do anything besides maybe just absorb calories from the sun and remain static. You wouldn't have to bother moving, hell the best evolutionary path your could walk would be to become a glorified tree with a nervous system. But the fact that Tyranids gamble their energy reserves like any other predator and fight desperately against other lifeforms with claw, tooth, and nail for food blows apart any argument that they're 100% efficient, because it's be counter-productive for such an animal.
Actually it would make sense for their bioships to process using something along the lines of photosynthesis, maybe even absorb cosmic dust and such while the majority of the biomass carried is in stasis. This would allow for long periods of travel with minimal energy expenditure and an increase in energy between 'feedings'.
Then the fleet attacks and strips a planet for a large quantity of quick energy, not unlike an ambush predator such as an alligator but at the scale of an entire ecosystem.
Lobomalo wrote: But the Tyranids already have surpassed the Imperiums manpower though, it just isn't all concentrated in one tendril.
Tyranids both breed and mature much faster than man does as well
they may, but they have to grow everything, which actually isnt the best way to fight a war. If you say lose an infantry division in a bombing attack, what that usually means is that the squishy components of the division. The vehicles, guns, supplies are often just fine, but the people are dead. Add new people and you have your infantry division again. A nid unit that gets bombed is dead, completely dead. Sure it can be reprocessed into new 'nid but time and energy are lost.
Which brings me to the next point. Races with arms armor and people have to sustain really only the people. While shipping an army across space, the people need food and reinforcements as they die, but the machines keep on chugging. 'nids on the other hand consume energy as they move always. They keep needing to be replaced as they are all mortal.
So how much did the 'nids have to spend getting from their galaxy to this one. They probably lost a lot of their galaxy beating power just preparing for inter galatic travel and then more on the trip here. Also did they send their forces at just one galaxy or did they divide them into 2+ parts and make for multiple galaxies. If only 1/10 of the invasion is actually headed for the milky way, the other 9/10th really arent a concern as they are too far away to contribute.
Which brings us to the hive mind. The hive mind is smart. It wants to consume all. It would not send 100% of it's forces in one direction. It would divide it's forces to conquer more galaxies at the same time. It would divide them down until it thinks it has a reasonable chance of still conquering any galaxy it encounters. Even if it sent everything it wouldnt have a 100% chance of success, as it doesnt really know what to expect in the new galaxy when it arrives. Similarly if it sent just a very small fleet to every galaxy, that small fleet might have some chance to succeed but most would probably be turned back.
So if the hive mind is intelligent, it would send a large enough fleet to the milky way to have a reasonable chance to win. In it's initial estimation probably 50-66%. But.... that is the initial estimate from far far away. The milkyway is home to a number of oddities, chaos, the god emperor, the necrons that not every galaxy would possess. Initially the 'nids must have thought there is a chance there is no life in the galaxy, there is a chance there is a united-strong-military that could defeat them, and there is a chance there is life that is disorganized and could be divided and defeated easily. The IoM is somewhere between united-strong and disorganized. It could be that the milky way is weaker to a 'nid attack than most and that upon reaching the outer rim the milkyway was doomed to be consumed. It could also be that the milkyway is strong, that some of those unique critters that the hive mind didnt know about are so powerful that the 'nids have no chance to win.
The 'nids obviously didnt expect the god emperor, as they didnt enter the galaxy heading straight for earth. Upon entering the galaxy and detecting the astronomican, they changed course, which indicates they realize the threat the emperor and the IoM represent to them.
So in conclusion, the 'nids are vast and powerful, but really not that much more powerful in the milkyway than anyone else. At least they are on the same scale. Probably much smaller than the IoM.
Wyzilla wrote: I know, but I'll still try dammit. I just... ugh. It seriously makes my brain hurt to think somebody could seriously argue Tyranids are 100% energy effecient despite them being known as the Great Devourer. Plus silly things like a biological lifeform being more energy efficient than a Star. Hell even a hypothetical Antimatter Reactor wouldn't be that good.
You know what? now I change my mind, I DO think tyranids are 100% energy efficient now.
So they violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics?
hmm if perpetual motion machines are possible in 40k, what else is possible.
Also if they are 100% efficient, why head out and conquer stuff?
So if The Hive Mind did only send 1/10 of its forces toward the Milky Way then who is to say that the other 9/10's weren't successful and have now grown incredibly strong from a nearby galaxy that was rich in biomass but with far less resistance....seeing as the Milky Way is also rich in biomass what if the Hive Mind had planned to converge all forces on this new threat and potential food source....the Astrinomican.....then you can consider the magnitude of the Tyranid race
Every norn queens ship is said to have required the average biomass of at least a million planets. So far I can think of four norn ships that have been annihilated so even if not one other tyranid died and they got every human planet in existence they would have still just swallowed a 400% energy loss. Nid background is just stupidly contradictory and vapid.
Lobomalo wrote: You are still applying modern day principles to a fictitious futuristic universe with faster than light travel and the ability to move into different dimensions.
And you are harping on about 100% efficiency?
And because of that your assertion is the correct one?
As for the above... it is just as likely, and maybe more, that a few of these hypothetical offshoots have weakened some due to a unsuccessful venture or have been annhililated by a race technologically adept than them. We really don't know how large the Tyranid race is but it sure as hell isn't as big as 12 galaxies worth of Biomass converted into ground troops. In fact, most of that has been probably spent already just lugging the Hive Fleet over here.
we can't know how many Nids there are. There are no definite numbers as to how many Tyranids there are only in-fluff speculations. The Tyranids in the galaxy could be the tip of the iceberg or the last of their kind. We will never know.
I will agree with most of my colleagues here that the Tyranid race is uncountable. Due to the vague hints and references to further unseen forces, plus suggestions of potential historical contact with them before (such as the Catachan devil). It is just not possible to get an idea of what their technical numbers are. That being said, on the completely pointless discussion on energy efficiency and certain aspects of Tyranid fluff, here is what I will say. Biomass does not include only purely organic material. When a Tyranid invasion fleet consumes a planet, they have organisms that can burrow through the mantle of the planet and tap into the geothermal energies of the core. When that planet is done being harvest, there is little to nothing left beyond barren rock on the surface. I don't know if it is possible, but they might even be able to harvest the resources locked into the molten center of the planet. For the sake of convenience, they are energy efficient, but not in the sense of perpetual motion. To my best understanding, they have some way of condensing that energy.
Consider the following; each Tyranid organism is a miniature reactor unto itself. The larger ones are easier to observe in this fashion, but most of them generate so much heat from their rapid metabolisms that they have built in chimneys designed to eject the hot gases away from their bodies, while simultaneously generating spores designed to be ejected in those gases to spread and further assist the Tyranids in assimilating the local fauna for harvesting. To correct one poster from earlier in this discussion, Tyranids may have their quirks, but you overlooked the fact that when they do feed and later sacrifice themselves to the reclamation pools, they do reclaim all the biomass that went into the creation of the organism, plus all that it managed to collect. So while it is not perfect, one can assume that any energy expended and lost is minimal and easily reclaimed with the additional biomass collected. They don't even have an end to their digestion tracks.
Consider the life cycle of the Leviathan and the humble Carnifex. Both start out as simple larvae in a birthing chamber, and in only a few hours, or perhaps even as quickly as a day is more likely in the case of the former, both are at their mature states and far, far larger than they were. So, how do you guys explain that massive burst of energy?
Unyielding Hunger wrote: I will agree with most of my colleagues here that the Tyranid race is uncountable. Due to the vague hints and references to further unseen forces, plus suggestions of potential historical contact with them before (such as the Catachan devil). It is just not possible to get an idea of what their technical numbers are. That being said, on the completely pointless discussion on energy efficiency and certain aspects of Tyranid fluff, here is what I will say. Biomass does not include only purely organic material. When a Tyranid invasion fleet consumes a planet, they have organisms that can burrow through the mantle of the planet and tap into the geothermal energies of the core. When that planet is done being harvest, there is little to nothing left beyond barren rock on the surface. I don't know if it is possible, but they might even be able to harvest the resources locked into the molten center of the planet. For the sake of convenience, they are energy efficient, but not in the sense of perpetual motion. To my best understanding, they have some way of condensing that energy.
Consider the following; each Tyranid organism is a miniature reactor unto itself. The larger ones are easier to observe in this fashion, but most of them generate so much heat from their rapid metabolisms that they have built in chimneys designed to eject the hot gases away from their bodies, while simultaneously generating spores designed to be ejected in those gases to spread and further assist the Tyranids in assimilating the local fauna for harvesting. To correct one poster from earlier in this discussion, Tyranids may have their quirks, but you overlooked the fact that when they do feed and later sacrifice themselves to the reclamation pools, they do reclaim all the biomass that went into the creation of the organism, plus all that it managed to collect. So while it is not perfect, one can assume that any energy expended and lost is minimal and easily reclaimed with the additional biomass collected. They don't even have an end to their digestion tracks.
Consider the life cycle of the Leviathan and the humble Carnifex. Both start out as simple larvae in a birthing chamber, and in only a few hours, or perhaps even as quickly as a day is more likely in the case of the former, both are at their mature states and far, far larger than they were. So, how do you guys explain that massive burst of energy?
You throw enough energy at the problem and you'll get spectacular results. What of it?
Also, if they really do expend that much energy that the living organisms need heat exhausts in of themselves then Tyranids are more wasteful of energy than I thought. Also, you will never get all of the energy you put into a Carnifex back (Or even most of it) since, like you said, they burn so much of it off just moving around and consuming biological matter for energy is inherently inefficient.
Though, I do wonder why Tyranids even bother eating worlds if they can get their energy elsewhere. Perhaps a vestigial trait from when they couldn't that the Hive Mind doesn't care to dispose of?
TheCustomLime wrote: You throw enough energy at the problem and you'll get spectacular results. What of it?
Also, if they really do expend that much energy that the living organisms need heat exhausts in of themselves then Tyranids are more wasteful of energy than I thought. Also, you will never get all of the energy you put into a Carnifex back (Or even most of it) since, like you said, they burn so much of it off just moving around and consuming biological matter for energy is inherently inefficient.
Though, I do wonder why Tyranids even bother eating worlds if they can get their energy elsewhere. Perhaps a vestigial trait from when they couldn't that the Hive Mind doesn't care to dispose of?
Honestly, true energy efficiency isn't where this conversation should be going. The real question is how they manage to reach maturity without needing food.
While you can consider that wasteful in relation to the spore chimneys on the back of Tyranid organisms, take it with a grain of salt. The fact that they are easily able to harness geothermal energy also leaves the idea around in my mind that in the process of drastically expelling this added heat and converting the environment to their preferred tastes, they can also recapture the thermal energy.
On the subject of burning energy in movement and through general actions, I would argue that while the energy used is great, it is not something on a titanic scale. Like certain animals here on earth, the Tyranids have probably developed and refined the individual species to maximize energy preservation so as even for running for multiple hours or even perhaps days at a time, they can enter a sort of energy preservation state, where they can refine their normal, slower movements with more energy efficient movements so they can get to their next target. As I recall, Hormagaunts are one of the best known Tyranid organisms for this sort of behavior.
Tyranid organisms are born dying, in a sense. They start small and quickly shift into maturity, and rapidly begin burning out.
Speculation: I wonder...to initiate the jump from a larvae stage to maturity, on some level could all Tyranids actually harness their own bio-electrical field to propel themselves into growth? A snow ball effect until completion, with the organism holding at a state instead of continuing growing, leading to the rapid heat build up and eventual burn out and death of the organism.
Simple: Games Workshop writers do not understand how things (Not just biochemistry. Just things in general) so they thing if it sounds cool it automatically isn't stupid by rule of cool. Actually, that's probably the answer to most of questions posed in this thread.
If you want to fish for an in-Universe explanation then it's possible that, since it's implied the material we read is Imperial in origin, there is some energy collection the Tyranids evolved which allows for the growth.
As for the rest of your post while it might be true that Tyranids have probably evolved better methods of expending energy they are still doing it and doing it in large amounts. Probably in larger amounts than they really need to *Cough* Living weapons *Cough*.
But I think energy efficiency is ultimately the thing that determines the size of the overall Tyranid Hive Fleet. Like Wyzilla said the Tyranid Hive Fleet size is on a Bell curve. Their energy efficiency determines what the peak of that curve is. (Note this curve is population versus how much biomass is consumed).
Wyzilla wrote: Those arriving at the Milky Way are starving, desperate
I don't think that they're really characterised this way in the fluff. Rather, we're presented with a threat that is extremely deadly and powerful, and is hinted to have masses more of itself coming.
As for the whole debate about the Nids not making sense, well, a lot of things in 40K don't make complete sense. But it's a science fiction setting, and the aliens in question are very, well, alien. I think that some suspension of disbelief is perfectly justified.
TheCustomLime wrote: Simple: Games Workshop writers do not understand how things (Not just biochemistry. Just things in general) so they thing if it sounds cool it automatically isn't stupid by rule of cool. Actually, that's probably the answer to most of questions posed in this thread.
If you want to fish for an in-Universe explanation then it's possible that, since it's implied the material we read is Imperial in origin, there is some energy collection the Tyranids evolved which allows for the growth.
As for the rest of your post while it might be true that Tyranids have probably evolved better methods of expending energy they are still doing it and doing it in large amounts. Probably in larger amounts than they really need to *Cough* Living weapons *Cough*.
But I think energy efficiency is ultimately the thing that determines the size of the overall Tyranid Hive Fleet. Like Wyzilla said the Tyranid Hive Fleet size is on a Bell curve. Their energy efficiency determines what the peak of that curve is. (Note this curve is population versus how much biomass is consumed).
Well, if we all agree GW writers made this stuff up, then what are we arguing for? No one here is naive enough to assume something can biologically exist without consuming energy. Wyzilla made jumps of logic here and started harping on people for being stupid.
Opinion on nature of the hive fleet>I think its massive, galaxy spanning massive>Wyzilla: No fleet of such size can exist without being extremely energy efficient>Therefore they must assume tyranids are 100% energy efficient>Argument over efficiency of energy
Which btw, I don't think any animal here on earth is as energy inefficient as the way you imagined the tyranids to be.
So if The Hive Mind did only send 1/10 of its forces toward the Milky Way then who is to say that the other 9/10's weren't successful and have now grown incredibly strong from a nearby galaxy that was rich in biomass but with far less resistance....seeing as the Milky Way is also rich in biomass what if the Hive Mind had planned to converge all forces on this new threat and potential food source....the Astrinomican.....then you can consider the magnitude of the Tyranid race
Sure, 9/10 of their force might be conquering other galaxies. But if they are, they aren't gonna get to the milkyway any time soon to help out. It's how much the hive mind sent in the initial wave+ what they can make in this galaxy vs the inhabitents of this galaxy. Nothing else.
There are no such things at nearby galaxies. The nearest galaxies are on the order of 100 times more distant than the milky way is wide.
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Lobomalo wrote: You are still applying modern day principles to a fictitious futuristic universe with faster than light travel and the ability to move into different dimensions.
And you are harping on about 100% efficiency?
If gravity still works and energy isnt free than I assume the fundamental laws of physics are still in play.
Again, it is wasn't the case, there would be no reason to ever leave their galaxy.
Also, no matter how many galaxies there are, the one Warhammer 40k takes place in is all together different. It is the origin of the various things that spawned chaos, it has orks, which exist nowhere else and are the only other known massed warp entity, and it has a psycher who can control vast amount of bot heal and warp space in the Emperor. The inconsistent fluff of GW makes the idea that however many previously consumed galaxies are equal to this one extremely unlikely.
TheCustomLime wrote: Simple: Games Workshop writers do not understand how things (Not just biochemistry. Just things in general) so they thing if it sounds cool it automatically isn't stupid by rule of cool. Actually, that's probably the answer to most of questions posed in this thread.
If you want to fish for an in-Universe explanation then it's possible that, since it's implied the material we read is Imperial in origin, there is some energy collection the Tyranids evolved which allows for the growth.
As for the rest of your post while it might be true that Tyranids have probably evolved better methods of expending energy they are still doing it and doing it in large amounts. Probably in larger amounts than they really need to *Cough* Living weapons *Cough*.
But I think energy efficiency is ultimately the thing that determines the size of the overall Tyranid Hive Fleet. Like Wyzilla said the Tyranid Hive Fleet size is on a Bell curve. Their energy efficiency determines what the peak of that curve is. (Note this curve is population versus how much biomass is consumed).
Well, if we all agree GW writers made this stuff up, then what are we arguing for? No one here is naive enough to assume something can biologically exist without consuming energy. Wyzilla made jumps of logic here and started harping on people for being stupid.
Opinion on nature of the hive fleet>I think its massive, galaxy spanning massive>Wyzilla: No fleet of such size can exist without being extremely energy efficient>Therefore they must assume tyranids are 100% energy efficient>Argument over efficiency of energy
Which btw, I don't think any animal here on earth is as energy inefficient as the way you imagined the tyranids to be.
Terran animals are around 10% energy efficient when it comes to obtaining energy from food. I'm being generous with them and assuming 50% or better since they are considered hyper evolved. Even then they'll still run into the problems I described.
Opinion on nature of the hive fleet>I think its massive, galaxy spanning massive>Wyzilla: No fleet of such size can exist without being extremely energy efficient>Therefore they must assume tyranids are 100% energy efficient>Argument over efficiency of energy
I don't see how a fleet that is massive must be energy efficient. Those are two different dimensions. Like saying that a tall man must also be smart and that the tallest man must also be the smartest man. They bare no relation.
TheCustomLime wrote: Terran animals are around 10% energy efficient when it comes to obtaining energy from food. I'm being generous with them and assuming 50% or better since they are considered hyper evolved. Even then they'll still run into the problems I described.
dude, you don't need to eat after traveling 25 miles like a car does....you'd be hungry, but you don't just stop moving. Biological organisms here on earth are much more efficient than machines. We just don't absorb as much of the nutrients provided us as a car does fuel.
This thread - though the absolute definition of theorycrafting - is very interesting to read. Keep it going everyone, this is 40K background discussion indeed!
TheCustomLime wrote: Terran animals are around 10% energy efficient when it comes to obtaining energy from food. I'm being generous with them and assuming 50% or better since they are considered hyper evolved. Even then they'll still run into the problems I described.
dude, you don't need to eat after traveling 25 miles like a car does....you'd be hungry, but you don't just stop moving. Biological organisms here on earth are much more efficient than machines. We just don't absorb as much of the nutrients provided us as a car does fuel.
Yeah but a car doesn't drop dead, you could refuel it after a month and it would start working again. Comparing a machines efficiency to an animals efficiency is apples and oranges, whilst we can both be rated we're worlds apart in the way we work.
TheCustomLime wrote: Terran animals are around 10% energy efficient when it comes to obtaining energy from food. I'm being generous with them and assuming 50% or better since they are considered hyper evolved. Even then they'll still run into the problems I described.
dude, you don't need to eat after traveling 25 miles like a car does....you'd be hungry, but you don't just stop moving. Biological organisms here on earth are much more efficient than machines. We just don't absorb as much of the nutrients provided us as a car does fuel.
a car weighs 1000Kg+
consider the amount of food that 10-15 humans need to consume to go 25 miles. It's vast
now consider that a car going at optimal speed(the humans aren't running) would consume to go the same distance. Probably a paltry quarter gallon of petrol.
TheCustomLime wrote: Terran animals are around 10% energy efficient when it comes to obtaining energy from food. I'm being generous with them and assuming 50% or better since they are considered hyper evolved. Even then they'll still run into the problems I described.
dude, you don't need to eat after traveling 25 miles like a car does....you'd be hungry, but you don't just stop moving. Biological organisms here on earth are much more efficient than machines. We just don't absorb as much of the nutrients provided us as a car does fuel.
Yeah but a car doesn't drop dead, you could refuel it after a month and it would start working again. Comparing a machines efficiency to an animals efficiency is apples and oranges, whilst we can both be rated we're worlds apart in the way we work.
You should only consider steadystate. A human might not need to eat after walking 25, 50, or 100 miles but then it would have burned up some of it's fat/ muscle reserves. A car might be able to travel 25, 50, 100, 200, 400 or even 800 miles without adding more petrol but then it would have consumed some of it's fuel reserves.
In either case you have to add fuel to note how much energy has actually been used.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Put another way, a 100 kg human would consume 115 kCalories walking 1 mile over smooth flat ground.
10 human would consume 1150 kC per mile and 28750kCalories for 25 miles.
That is 1.2 *10^8 Joules of energy and it does not count the calories the humans would consume just by living for the 8 hours it would take them to walk.
A 1000kg car traveling at a low speed over smooth flat ground could travel that 25 miles on 1 liter of petrol. Which is 3.2*10^7 Joules.
An order of magnitude more efficient
And that is for a car that is designed to get from A to B very quickly, not efficiently. Humans are designed/evolved to efficiently walk around.
That makes things clearer, but for me it's raised more questions. Does this mean the Hive mind only sends forces to places where it knows it can gain more energy than it expended in troops. I mean whilst of course some troops are going to survive and be reclaimed, taking a whole world is going to require unimaginable amounts of resources and even if they do take everything and strip the planet bare of even it's atmosphere, can they really consume enough organic rich planets to thrive? And I suppose for that matter, why waste resources on horde troops like 'gaunts? Mass production seems ineffective if you're a race focused on consumption.
You're basis their energy uses on technology and other mammals when the Tyranids are closer to an insect than anything else.
Let us take Ants, Cockroaches and Flies for instance.
The amount of fuel required for them to go about their tasks is miniscule in comparison to the amount of energy they use.
For them, a little goes an extremely long way.
The Tyranids, being an ever evolving biological species has long since gone away with the need to consume fuel in order to expend energy. As has been asked before, when has a Tyranid ever been seen eating because they were hungry, or drinking water to quench a thirst.
They strip a planet entirely for everything that can provide energy for their evolutionary cycle, not for them to go about doing things. The largest expenditure of energy they have is that transformation into whatever unit they are required to be for the hive. Each unit type needing a different amount of energy, but the energy is not wasted as it is all going into the body of the unit.
Where is the waste from this process?
Which brings me to another question, has anyone seen Tyranid waste? As this would be a by-product of their energy consumption and would show they are not 100% efficient.
Not to mention, when, in any lore have the Tyranids ever shown exhaustion? We don't even know if they get tired.
Orks can terraform it and put organic matter back down if a Rokk hits it. Hence why the Orks and Tyranids are a perfect match as symbiotic civilizations, or at least the perfect fitting puzzle piece that enables stability for both factions. Tyranids are the farmers that reap what the Orks sow.
It's a damned shame that the Imperium isn't made up of Orks then aint it?
Also, I'd kind of argue against Orks being able to do that. I mean Tyranids leave -nothing- behind. No precious metals, no water, no atmosphere, no dirt, no nothing. There's literally just rock; they take everything else.
Orks are hardy, but I'm skeptical of their ability to ekk out a living on literally rock alone. At absolute best they'd be able to salvage and re-use what they came to the planet with, but the fact that they have nothing on the planet to use means that they'd eventually just be stuck there bashing eachothers heads in whilst running around butt naked.
Basically they wouldn't be common Orkish low tech, they'd be no tech. Not even rock weapons; just rocks.
Tyranids do not consume precious metals, or any metals in fact.
Infrastructure would remain, buildings, machinery, war materiel in fact, weapons and such, anything non-biological would remain on the planet as long as it was not destroyed during the initial assault.
Orks can terraform it and put organic matter back down if a Rokk hits it. Hence why the Orks and Tyranids are a perfect match as symbiotic civilizations, or at least the perfect fitting puzzle piece that enables stability for both factions. Tyranids are the farmers that reap what the Orks sow.
It's a damned shame that the Imperium isn't made up of Orks then aint it?
Also, I'd kind of argue against Orks being able to do that. I mean Tyranids leave -nothing- behind. No precious metals, no water, no atmosphere, no dirt, no nothing. There's literally just rock; they take everything else.
Orks are hardy, but I'm skeptical of their ability to ekk out a living on literally rock alone. At absolute best they'd be able to salvage and re-use what they came to the planet with, but the fact that they have nothing on the planet to use means that they'd eventually just be stuck there bashing eachothers heads in whilst running around butt naked.
Basically they wouldn't be common Orkish low tech, they'd be no tech. Not even rock weapons; just rocks.
Tyranids do not consume precious metals, or any metals in fact.
Infrastructure would remain, buildings, machinery, war materiel in fact, weapons and such, anything non-biological would remain on the planet as long as it was not destroyed during the initial assault.
Tyranids and Orks both throw spores onto the planet and begin their process of evolution. Tyranids take all bio-mass, Orks take all metals leaving nothing but a hollowed out rock for a planet. Great teamwork tbh
To make a Carnifex requires a lot of energy. For that Carnifex to moves around requires a lot of energy. To process it back into Tyranid goo requires a lot of energy. You won't even get all, or perhaps most, of the energy back that the Carnifex has.
The act of consumption results in a loss of energy. Ripper swarms have already burnt off some (Or, more likely, most) of the energy in the biomass they consume just because they've eaten it. Then when those things get liquified that results in energy loss. Then when that goo is processed back into something else that will result in even more energy loss. This is just how the laws of Thermodynamics work and why I personally believe biotechnology as used by the Tyranids is all kinds of stupid.
And this brings us back to the size of potential whole of the Tyranid race. Because so much energy is being burned as their fuel source is being repeatedly converted into one form or another and by... everything they own they'll have to consume a lot of biomass of which your average galaxy only has so much of. Not even to expand their race. Just to survive. At some point the amount of biomass they need to eat to live and how much the usual galaxy they encounter contains will equal out and their growth will stop. Before then their growth will have slowed down to a near crawl as the surplus biomatter gets smaller and smaller. This is what I mean by "diminishing returns". And then this huge Tyranid fleet will encounter a galaxy that doesn't have enough biomass to sustain their numbers and they shrink down. Hence the bell curve for their size potential.
So, how big are they? This depends on several factors. 1) How much Biomass does the average galaxy have? 2) How energy efficient is the Tyranid race? 3) How many "Average", "Above Average" or "Below Average" galaxies have they been to? 4) How much energy do the Hive Fleets consume as they travel? 5) Did they encounter a race that threw them back recently?
TheCustomLime wrote: To make a Carnifex requires a lot of energy. For that Carnifex to moves around requires a lot of energy. To process it back into Tyranid goo requires a lot of energy. You won't even get all, or perhaps most, of the energy back that the Carnifex has.
The act of consumption results in a loss of energy. Ripper swarms have already burnt off some (Or, more likely, most) of the energy in the biomass they consume just because they've eaten it. Then when those things get liquified that results in energy loss. Then when that goo is processed back into something else that will result in even more energy loss. This is just how the laws of Thermodynamics work and why I personally believe biotechnology as used by the Tyranids is all kinds of stupid.
And this brings us back to the size of potential whole of the Tyranid race. Because so much energy is being burned as their fuel source is being repeatedly converted into one form or another and by... everything they own they'll have to consume a lot of biomass of which your average galaxy only has so much of. Not even to expand their race. Just to survive. At some point the amount of biomass they need to eat to live and how much the usual galaxy they encounter contains will equal out and their growth will stop. Before then their growth will have slowed down to a near crawl as the surplus biomatter gets smaller and smaller. This is what I mean by "diminishing returns". And then this huge Tyranid fleet will encounter a galaxy that doesn't have enough biomass to sustain their numbers and they shrink down. Hence the bell curve for their size potential.
So, how big are they? This depends on several factors. 1) How much Biomass does the average galaxy have? 2) How energy efficient is the Tyranid race? 3) How many "Average", "Above Average" or "Below Average" galaxies have they been to? 4) How much energy do the Hive Fleets consume as they travel? 5) Did they encounter a race that threw them back recently?
Again, you are bringing modern day science to a futuristic universe and relating it to a vastly unknown species. You have no way of knowing they are not 100% or how much energy they use or need to consume in order to move around. Nobody has seen them eat, so how do you know they need to consume fuel in order to move? Nobody has ever seen them become exhausted which is a clear sign that energy is low. In fact, according to the lore, the Tyranid have never been expressed as anything but an ever forward moving army that is nigh on unstoppable, similar to the Orks as a matter of fact. Their numbers are quickly replenished with seemingly no effort at all.
Also, all of your questions, are unanswerable for the most part as nothing is yet know of the rest of the Tyranid species, only the tendrils that have come into our galaxy.
TheCustomLime wrote: To make a Carnifex requires a lot of energy. For that Carnifex to moves around requires a lot of energy. To process it back into Tyranid goo requires a lot of energy. You won't even get all, or perhaps most, of the energy back that the Carnifex has.
The act of consumption results in a loss of energy. Ripper swarms have already burnt off some (Or, more likely, most) of the energy in the biomass they consume just because they've eaten it. Then when those things get liquified that results in energy loss. Then when that goo is processed back into something else that will result in even more energy loss. This is just how the laws of Thermodynamics work and why I personally believe biotechnology as used by the Tyranids is all kinds of stupid.
And this brings us back to the size of potential whole of the Tyranid race. Because so much energy is being burned as their fuel source is being repeatedly converted into one form or another and by... everything they own they'll have to consume a lot of biomass of which your average galaxy only has so much of. Not even to expand their race. Just to survive. At some point the amount of biomass they need to eat to live and how much the usual galaxy they encounter contains will equal out and their growth will stop. Before then their growth will have slowed down to a near crawl as the surplus biomatter gets smaller and smaller. This is what I mean by "diminishing returns". And then this huge Tyranid fleet will encounter a galaxy that doesn't have enough biomass to sustain their numbers and they shrink down. Hence the bell curve for their size potential.
So, how big are they? This depends on several factors. 1) How much Biomass does the average galaxy have? 2) How energy efficient is the Tyranid race? 3) How many "Average", "Above Average" or "Below Average" galaxies have they been to? 4) How much energy do the Hive Fleets consume as they travel? 5) Did they encounter a race that threw them back recently?
Again, you are bringing modern day science to a futuristic universe and relating it to a vastly unknown species. You have no way of knowing they are not 100% or how much energy they use or need to consume in order to move around. Nobody has seen them eat, so how do you know they need to consume fuel in order to move? Nobody has ever seen them become exhausted which is a clear sign that energy is low. In fact, according to the lore, the Tyranid have never been expressed as anything but an ever forward moving army that is nigh on unstoppable, similar to the Orks as a matter of fact. Their numbers are quickly replenished with seemingly no effort at all.
Also, all of your questions, are unanswerable for the most part as nothing is yet know of the rest of the Tyranid species, only the tendrils that have come into our galaxy.
We know they consume fuel in order to move because they HAVE to, it's not something they can get around, it's a basic rule of the universe that you cannot create energy from nowhere. And we've never seen waste because your basic war 'nid does't have anything other than organs and system designed solely to fight, and it's what comes after that does the processing and consumption of the planet. And nobody's ever seen them exhausted because they're designed to either die on the field of battle and be eaten afterwards, or eat as much as they can and then crawl into essentially a giant stomach. They don't live long enough to become exhausted.
TheCustomLime wrote: To make a Carnifex requires a lot of energy. For that Carnifex to moves around requires a lot of energy. To process it back into Tyranid goo requires a lot of energy. You won't even get all, or perhaps most, of the energy back that the Carnifex has.
The act of consumption results in a loss of energy. Ripper swarms have already burnt off some (Or, more likely, most) of the energy in the biomass they consume just because they've eaten it. Then when those things get liquified that results in energy loss. Then when that goo is processed back into something else that will result in even more energy loss. This is just how the laws of Thermodynamics work and why I personally believe biotechnology as used by the Tyranids is all kinds of stupid.
And this brings us back to the size of potential whole of the Tyranid race. Because so much energy is being burned as their fuel source is being repeatedly converted into one form or another and by... everything they own they'll have to consume a lot of biomass of which your average galaxy only has so much of. Not even to expand their race. Just to survive. At some point the amount of biomass they need to eat to live and how much the usual galaxy they encounter contains will equal out and their growth will stop. Before then their growth will have slowed down to a near crawl as the surplus biomatter gets smaller and smaller. This is what I mean by "diminishing returns". And then this huge Tyranid fleet will encounter a galaxy that doesn't have enough biomass to sustain their numbers and they shrink down. Hence the bell curve for their size potential.
So, how big are they? This depends on several factors. 1) How much Biomass does the average galaxy have? 2) How energy efficient is the Tyranid race? 3) How many "Average", "Above Average" or "Below Average" galaxies have they been to? 4) How much energy do the Hive Fleets consume as they travel? 5) Did they encounter a race that threw them back recently?
Again, you are bringing modern day science to a futuristic universe and relating it to a vastly unknown species. You have no way of knowing they are not 100% or how much energy they use or need to consume in order to move around. Nobody has seen them eat, so how do you know they need to consume fuel in order to move? Nobody has ever seen them become exhausted which is a clear sign that energy is low. In fact, according to the lore, the Tyranid have never been expressed as anything but an ever forward moving army that is nigh on unstoppable, similar to the Orks as a matter of fact. Their numbers are quickly replenished with seemingly no effort at all.
Also, all of your questions, are unanswerable for the most part as nothing is yet know of the rest of the Tyranid species, only the tendrils that have come into our galaxy.
Again, you're assuming that uncertainty supports your side of the argument (I assume that is what you intend. If not I appologize) more than it does mine. It's just as likely that I am spot on, perhaps more likely, than I am wrong because I applied modern day ideas to the Nids.
I wish that counterpoint would be dropped, TBH. Just because we don't know if our scientific principles will hold up doesn't mean we can't apply them nor does it make the side that used that defense any more correct that it does the side that's arguing using it science. Since it is an uncertainty that can go either way it shouldn't be used because the concept equally supports either side.
TheCustomLime wrote: Again, you're assuming that uncertainty supports your side of the argument (I assume that is what you intend. If not I appologize) more than it does mine. It's just as likely that I am spot on, perhaps more likely, than I am wrong because I applied modern day ideas to the Nids.
But that's it isn't it? Modern day ideas are unlikely to be the case as to how the tyranids process materials, because if we can find a way for it to work logically, then it would be viable. If modern day ideas can be applied to the tyranids, we'd know how create biological organisms and use them as weapons. Or more likely, if we applied modern day ideas to the tyranids, we'd find out every way possible for the tyranids not to exist. Which we already know they don't, and that they're a work of fiction, which we know they are.
Then just say "It runs on the power of handwavium" rather than use the possibly of current day science of being outdated as a defense. Not you specifically but other people.
TheCustomLime wrote: Then just say "It runs on the power of handwavium" rather than use the possibly of current day science of being outdated as a defense. Not you specifically but other people.
TheCustomLime wrote: Then just say "It runs on the power of handwavium" rather than use the possibly of current day science of being outdated as a defense. Not you specifically but other people.
Well, no, we want to use our imaginations.
This right here.
Let's be honest, if mankind has advanced enough to have faster than light travel, the ability to engineer the perfect killing machine and the technology to jump through other dimensions. Modern day science has been left behind so far that in comparison, Thermodynamics as we know it today was the first rock that was turned into a wheel.
Infrastructure would remain, buildings, machinery, war materiel in fact, weapons and such, anything non-biological would remain on the planet as long as it was not destroyed during the initial assault.
Tyranids do not consume precious metals, or any metals in fact.
Infrastructure would remain, buildings, machinery, war materiel in fact, weapons and such, anything non-biological would remain on the planet as long as it was not destroyed during the initial assault.
Tyranids strip a planet of everything which which can be used in the creation of organisms; this includes metal. Various metals are an essential part of life, even if only in small amounts.
Tyranids strip a planet of everything short of basically bedrock, which has no real organic (or even industrial uses).
If they only took Bio-mass, they wouldn't take a planet's atmosphere. Oxygen, nitrogen, and various other gases are not organics. Neither is water, as it is merely a liquid.
If the Tyranids only consumed straight-up Biomass, they wouldn't be NEARLY as threatening because they wouldn't leave unusable planets in their wake. They'd also be.. well, way crappier. Because they'd only be getting the required metals, gasses, and liquids to support life from breaking down living things; not harvesting the sources.
Ergo, the nids most certainly do consume metals. If they did not, they wouldn't consume atmospheres as well. Oceans -might- get consumed simply because there's so many micro-organisms in them that it'd be easier to drain all sources of water and filter out organics in transit.
Tyranids are explicitly stated as consuming metals and other materials, and incorporating them into Tyranid organisms:
Curving tusks of adamantium-laced chitin sprout from the Tyranid's head, allowing it to effect a devastating charge.
p. 33, 4th edition Tyranid Codex
Strangle-vines tightened their grip on the ruins of an Imperial outpost, rendering steel and plastic down to their constituent parts ready for absorption.
Toastaster wrote: That makes things clearer, but for me it's raised more questions. Does this mean the Hive mind only sends forces to places where it knows it can gain more energy than it expended in troops. I mean whilst of course some troops are going to survive and be reclaimed, taking a whole world is going to require unimaginable amounts of resources and even if they do take everything and strip the planet bare of even it's atmosphere, can they really consume enough organic rich planets to thrive? And I suppose for that matter, why waste resources on horde troops like 'gaunts? Mass production seems ineffective if you're a race focused on consumption.
one would assume that the bigger guants are successively more difficult to make. The message from the fluff is that the behemonths take thousands of worlds to build while you can probably grow a few million guants out of the forest from 1 continent.
Same thing with the IoM, Why have foot troops, why not build nothing but titans? Because the titans cost a lot more per firepower than the foot sloggers. Titans are for when you need force concentration to break hardened targets.
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morganfreeman wrote: Tyranids strip a planet of everything short of basically bedrock, which has no real organic (or even industrial uses).
Bedrock is made of largely silicon and oxygen by volume, with a lot of iron in the inner core which is more masive
wikipedia wrote:
The mass of the Earth is approximately 5.98×1024 kg. It is composed mostly of iron (32.1%), oxygen (30.1%), silicon (15.1%), magnesium (13.9%), sulfur (2.9%), nickel (1.8%), calcium (1.5%), and aluminium (1.4%); with the remaining 1.2% consisting of trace amounts of other elements.
Infrastructure would remain, buildings, machinery, war materiel in fact, weapons and such, anything non-biological would remain on the planet as long as it was not destroyed during the initial assault.
Tyranids do not consume precious metals, or any metals in fact.
Infrastructure would remain, buildings, machinery, war materiel in fact, weapons and such, anything non-biological would remain on the planet as long as it was not destroyed during the initial assault.
Tyranids strip a planet of everything which which can be used in the creation of organisms; this includes metal. Various metals are an essential part of life, even if only in small amounts.
Tyranids strip a planet of everything short of basically bedrock, which has no real organic (or even industrial uses).
If they only took Bio-mass, they wouldn't take a planet's atmosphere. Oxygen, nitrogen, and various other gases are not organics. Neither is water, as it is merely a liquid.
If the Tyranids only consumed straight-up Biomass, they wouldn't be NEARLY as threatening because they wouldn't leave unusable planets in their wake. They'd also be.. well, way crappier. Because they'd only be getting the required metals, gasses, and liquids to support life from breaking down living things; not harvesting the sources.
Ergo, the nids most certainly do consume metals. If they did not, they wouldn't consume atmospheres as well. Oceans -might- get consumed simply because there's so many micro-organisms in them that it'd be easier to drain all sources of water and filter out organics in transit.
'nids must consume what they need. Sure they need iron, but in far smaller quantities than what they find. They must not have a limiting amount of hydrogen, else they would consume suns themselves. They must not have a limit of oxygen, or they would consume the bedrock of planets, and they must not have a limit on iron or they would consume the cores of planets. Perhaps their limiting element is carbon(you know, carbon based life), so they go all out trying to consume carbon and take whatever else they need with that amount of carbon.
They clearly are not 100% energy efficient, as if they were they change 1 element into another. We can do this, at our primitive level of technology and we actually get energy out of it most of the time.
left with the feeling that the writers of the 'nid fluff have no clue about science when they write science fiction.
TheCustomLime wrote: Again, you're assuming that uncertainty supports your side of the argument (I assume that is what you intend. If not I appologize) more than it does mine. It's just as likely that I am spot on, perhaps more likely, than I am wrong because I applied modern day ideas to the Nids.
But that's it isn't it? Modern day ideas are unlikely to be the case as to how the tyranids process materials, because if we can find a way for it to work logically, then it would be viable. If modern day ideas can be applied to the tyranids, we'd know how create biological organisms and use them as weapons. Or more likely, if we applied modern day ideas to the tyranids, we'd find out every way possible for the tyranids not to exist. Which we already know they don't, and that they're a work of fiction, which we know they are.
Viable and cost effective are different things. We have perfectly good ideas on how to genetically engineer life to do what we want. Built buildings, process materials, kill people. None of these thing though are cheaper than alternative methods of accomplishing that goal. Thus we dont do them.
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Lobomalo wrote: You're basis their energy uses on technology and other mammals when the Tyranids are closer to an insect than anything else.
Let us take Ants, Cockroaches and Flies for instance.
The amount of fuel required for them to go about their tasks is miniscule in comparison to the amount of energy they use.
For them, a little goes an extremely long way.
Ants cockroaches and flies are all minuscule.
An ant weighs 3 milligrams. So 3.3*10^8 ants = 1 100kg human.
Insects use energy the same way mammals do, just on a smaller scale.
Mammals do have to use some energy to gestate their larger young, stay warm so they can function in cold/hot climates, and have higher intellegence(yes this costs energy)
if 'nids didn't also expend energy on the same thing they would be pretty easy to combat.
Exergy wrote: left with the feeling that the writers of the 'nid fluff have no clue about science when they write science fiction.
No arguments here.
My main point was that Tyranids don't just take "biomass", they take anything and everything which can be useful for life.
If I want to be generous (which I don't), I'd explain away the un-even quantities of things taken by just saying it's all broken down to extreme levels. Turned into some bio-organic gruel-paste-food-like-substance which somehow is extremely health, stupid efficient, and just all around everything anyone could possibly every want to be born in because it's bloody fantastic, and that's that.
My main point was that Tyranids don't just take "biomass", they take anything and everything which can be useful for life.
If I want to be generous (which I don't), I'd explain away the un-even quantities of things taken by just saying it's all broken down to extreme levels. Turned into some bio-organic gruel-paste-food-like-substance which somehow is extremely health, stupid efficient, and just all around everything anyone could possibly every want to be born in because it's bloody fantastic, and that's that.
Or there's the carbon theory.
I don't think it's that simple. I don't think you can just strip down the elements and turn it into one type of substance and build anything you want with it. A living organism here on earth, such as a human, is very complex, one of the most complex compared to anything else on the chart of evolution. Can you imagine a living organism that can travel in space and combat every other species in the universe by adapting its body/bodies to resist and conquer them?
TheCustomLime wrote: Then just say "It runs on the power of handwavium" rather than use the possibly of current day science of being outdated as a defense. Not you specifically but other people.
Well, no, we want to use our imaginations.
This right here.
Let's be honest, if mankind has advanced enough to have faster than light travel, the ability to engineer the perfect killing machine and the technology to jump through other dimensions. Modern day science has been left behind so far that in comparison, Thermodynamics as we know it today was the first rock that was turned into a wheel.
No, it wouldn't because it's an absolute law of the fething universe that hasn't changed in around two hundred years now (I forget the exact date where it "truly" began) from a field of physics that has been around for a good four hundred years, and yet the laws haven't been completely changed around the subject of "no, you cannot be a hundred percent efficient". Let me reiterate, STARS are not even a hundred percent efficient, and are the greatest examples we know of fusion power. Hell an antimatter reactor, the greatest means of developing whopping amounts of energy that even surpasses fusion power, would still not be a hundred percent efficient by the energy needed to create said animatter in the first place. Simply saying "Well it may be different in the future that I have no idea of what it will even be!" means gak in an argument regarding science and you might as well plead the Matrix Defense.
Plus modern day science doesn't even have to change for FTL, because we're working out the math on one right now. It's pretty much the warp drive straight out of Star Trek and doesn't break the Theory of Relativity by not actually moving at FTL speeds at all which would increase your mass exponentially. Instead it warps space time to cause the ship to move by effectively surfing it. Jumping through dimensions isn't really possible, yeaaah. Dimensions aren't like what science fiction would have you believe, they're literal other dimensions, like the second, third, fourth (which we live in), fifth, etc. Universes maybe, but you'd need a fething huge amount of energy to blow your way into another universe that's near ours, and that's only if the multiverse theory is true.... which also kinda lacks any evidence to support it at all. More of a hypothesis really.
But if you think Tyranids, or anything else in W40K is the ultimate killing machine, you need to read more Sci Fi. The Culture immediately jumps to mind.
My main point was that Tyranids don't just take "biomass", they take anything and everything which can be useful for life.
If I want to be generous (which I don't), I'd explain away the un-even quantities of things taken by just saying it's all broken down to extreme levels. Turned into some bio-organic gruel-paste-food-like-substance which somehow is extremely health, stupid efficient, and just all around everything anyone could possibly every want to be born in because it's bloody fantastic, and that's that.
Or there's the carbon theory.
I don't think it's that simple. I don't think you can just strip down the elements and turn it into one type of substance and build anything you want with it. A living organism here on earth, such as a human, is very complex, one of the most complex compared to anything else on the chart of evolution. Can you imagine a living organism that can travel in space and combat every other species in the universe by adapting its body/bodies to resist and conquer them?
Of course you can, and we're capable of doing it right now. It just takes an exorbitant amount of energy to strip atoms from an element to reduce its number and turn it into a lower element. We're also capable of stitching the atom back as well.
And also, of course we can imagine it. Bacteria fit your parameters completely, we just need to launch them into space.
Orks can terraform it and put organic matter back down if a Rokk hits it. Hence why the Orks and Tyranids are a perfect match as symbiotic civilizations, or at least the perfect fitting puzzle piece that enables stability for both factions. Tyranids are the farmers that reap what the Orks sow.
It's a damned shame that the Imperium isn't made up of Orks then aint it?
Also, I'd kind of argue against Orks being able to do that. I mean Tyranids leave -nothing- behind. No precious metals, no water, no atmosphere, no dirt, no nothing. There's literally just rock; they take everything else.
Orks are hardy, but I'm skeptical of their ability to ekk out a living on literally rock alone. At absolute best they'd be able to salvage and re-use what they came to the planet with, but the fact that they have nothing on the planet to use means that they'd eventually just be stuck there bashing eachothers heads in whilst running around butt naked.
Basically they wouldn't be common Orkish low tech, they'd be no tech. Not even rock weapons; just rocks.
Tyranids do not consume precious metals, or any metals in fact.
Infrastructure would remain, buildings, machinery, war materiel in fact, weapons and such, anything non-biological would remain on the planet as long as it was not destroyed during the initial assault.
Oh, yes they do.
Tyranids consume *everything*. That's what Ripper Swarms are for. They will devour a planet down to its bare bedrock, and might even eat that, too. Just as the human body has need for metals like iron in its diet, so too does the Tyranid. This is also the means by which they get adamantium-laced claws, talons, armor-plate and similar biomorphs, by devouring it from the worlds of the Milky Way.
A world cleansed of all life by a Tyranid Invasion is rendered utterly valueless to any species... excepting maybe the Necrons, who have no need for atmospheres or biospheres.
The Necrons have no need for barren worlds full stop. They can remain in space indefinitely until a more interesting and Eldar-teeming world comes along as far as I know.
Oh, no argument there, simply pointing out that, of all the races in the galaxy, the Necrons alone are the ones who could "live" on an airless, lifeless rock.
Orks can terraform it and put organic matter back down if a Rokk hits it. Hence why the Orks and Tyranids are a perfect match as symbiotic civilizations, or at least the perfect fitting puzzle piece that enables stability for both factions. Tyranids are the farmers that reap what the Orks sow.
It's a damned shame that the Imperium isn't made up of Orks then aint it?
Also, I'd kind of argue against Orks being able to do that. I mean Tyranids leave -nothing- behind. No precious metals, no water, no atmosphere, no dirt, no nothing. There's literally just rock; they take everything else.
Orks are hardy, but I'm skeptical of their ability to ekk out a living on literally rock alone. At absolute best they'd be able to salvage and re-use what they came to the planet with, but the fact that they have nothing on the planet to use means that they'd eventually just be stuck there bashing eachothers heads in whilst running around butt naked.
Basically they wouldn't be common Orkish low tech, they'd be no tech. Not even rock weapons; just rocks.
Tyranids do not consume precious metals, or any metals in fact.
Infrastructure would remain, buildings, machinery, war materiel in fact, weapons and such, anything non-biological would remain on the planet as long as it was not destroyed during the initial assault.
Tyranids most definitely do consume metals, and minerals too.
Pyrovores are known to devour metal and stone. Digestion Pools liquefy absolutely everything, to the point that when the Tyranids are done with a world almost every part of the surface is either part of the ocean-sized digestion pools or the foundations of a Capillary Tower that reaches up into space.
Speaking of which, I would imagine that said Capillary Towers are mostly minerals; like giant bones reaching up off of a planet.
Finally, Tyranids have been known to lace their armour with resilient metal. Carnifexes are especially known to include adamantium within their claws, tusks and carapace.
TheCustomLime wrote: Of course Tyranids can die out by overpopulation! .......So, if the Nids gorged themselves on a galaxy that just happened to have a lot of biomass and came upon a galaxy that didn't... then that would be bad. Life forms need constant energy input to sustain themselves. If they came upon a galaxy that completely lacked biomass then they would go extinct.
In fact, I would say that is the ultimate fate of the Nids. Once they happen to run into a lifeless galaxy (Or run out galaxies they can reach without expending all of their biomass) then they will wither and die out.
But of course, the Nids aren't that dumb.
They came to the Milky Way because they saw the light of the Astronomican. They knew that there was a lot of sentient life because of the psychic output of said sentient life. And of course with said sentient life there should also be a lot of biomass.
Tyranids do not consume precious metals, or any metals in fact.
Infrastructure would remain, buildings, machinery, war materiel in fact, weapons and such, anything non-biological would remain on the planet as long as it was not destroyed during the initial assault.
As the others have said, this isn't correct. The larger (non-Ripper) feeder creatures are both described as being able to consume anything and everything.
So powerful are the acidic fluids inside a Pyrovore that they even feast on metals and rocks, any mineral the Hive Fleet may require.
- 5th edition codex, page 49
And from the 2014 January White Dwarf:
We know that creatures such as Rippers and Pyrovores harvest the biomass of a planet and giant capillary towers hoover it up to be used by the ships of the Hive Fleet. I wanted to develop this family with a larger monster whose role would be to crunch through the very biggest and toughest stuff on the planet and render it down into manageable chunks and usable compounds. The Haruspex is a grinder, a giant bio-blender. Just like the other Tyranids in the feeder family, it doesn't eat its prey, it just breaks it down and spews it out. That's why it has no stomach, it simply grabs things with its tongue, draws it into its maw and starts chomping away - dissolving armour, rocks, and ceramite before heaving it all back out.
- Page 144 and 145
As for the matter of Tyranid energy consumption, the way I read the fluff is that Tyranids do not invade worlds primarily for sustenance, but rather for the raw materials needed to create more Tyranids (comparable to how mosquitoes require protein from blood in order to create eggs but do not use blood as their main sustenance). Now granted, I have no idea what would be their primary energy source if such were the case, but given that they can somehow generate plasma with biological processes they probably have some sort of organism designed for such a task.
TheCustomLime wrote: Of course Tyranids can die out by overpopulation! .......So, if the Nids gorged themselves on a galaxy that just happened to have a lot of biomass and came upon a galaxy that didn't... then that would be bad. Life forms need constant energy input to sustain themselves. If they came upon a galaxy that completely lacked biomass then they would go extinct.
In fact, I would say that is the ultimate fate of the Nids. Once they happen to run into a lifeless galaxy (Or run out galaxies they can reach without expending all of their biomass) then they will wither and die out.
But of course, the Nids aren't that dumb.
They came to the Milky Way because they saw the light of the Astronomican. They knew that there was a lot of sentient life because of the psychic output of said sentient life. And of course with said sentient life there should also be a lot of biomass.
It could also have been a race that made a psychic beacon to expand their small Empire over a barren Galaxy.
Current fluff from Gw about Tyranids has been very dumbed down of late, the last two codexes were rather dodgy in this area. A Carnifex eating biomass to then be absorbed by the swarm is nonsense!
The rate at which Tyranids use their energy is only when it's needed, the races of the galaxy are very wasteful. Biological forms store and use energy far more efficiently than mechanical counterparts. Tyranids will of refined this further.
Their actual numbers would be huge and likely impossible for anyone to actually estimate in any way.
They have consumed at least twelve galaxies. The size of a galaxy can vary enormously, the Milky Way doesn't stand out as being a big one though. Worlds in the Milky Way that are populated are a tiny amount of the galaxy's actual bio-mass. Humans and other so-called sentient races are a tiny near worthless amount of the food Tyranids desire. The food sources of these races is far greater and desirable, it is just these species are in the way. Humans and other also have almost no genetic variety to speak of, making them of no use in that area.
Tyranids don't only eat biomass, they eat all that can be used in or as biomass. They also have highly alien forms and abilities which mean metals, highly toxic chemicals etc can easily be viewed as food by Tyranids. This means the term biomass meaning what the Tyranids eat is a very loose term, well beyond human science to know how loose.
How many Tyranids are there. A Tyranid can be a single micro-bacteria. Countless trillions of these can exist on one being alone. From our point of view they may not count. However from a planet eating monster's point of view the tiny things (humans) on the surface count, though only to a limited degree. In this regard they Tyranids could outnumber all the living things in the galaxy, less than 0 add infintum . 1 are sentient.
The rate at which Tyranids use their energy is only when it's needed, the races of the galaxy are very wasteful. Biological forms store and use energy far more efficiently than mechanical counterparts. Tyranids will of refined this further.
Except even today, mechanical devices are more energy efficient than biological ones that have evolved over hundreds of millions of years.
Spoiler:
Take a look at wikipedia
Electricity generation
Gas turbine up to 40%
Gas turbine plus steam turbine (combined cycle) up to 60%
Water turbine up to 90% (practically achieved)
Wind turbine up to 59% (theoretical limit)
Solar cell 6–40% (technology dependent, 15% most often, 85–90% theoretical limit)
Fuel cell up to 85%
World Electricity generation 2008 Gross output 39%, Net output 33%.[1]
So muscles are ~20-25% efficient while electric motors are ~85% efficient
and Photosynthesis is 6% while photovotaic cells are 15-20% efficient
Your claims are just plain made up.
Tyranids don't only eat biomass, they eat all that can be used in or as biomass. They also have highly alien forms and abilities which mean metals, highly toxic chemicals etc can easily be viewed as food by Tyranids. This means the term biomass meaning what the Tyranids eat is a very loose term, well beyond human science to know how loose.
Perhaps you should re-examine the foolish human science you seem to know nothing about. With our primitive understanding we have been able to make biomass out of all matter in the galaxy 60 years ago. Perhaps tyranids are the primative ones, unable to create biomass out of rocks and stars like 20th century humans can.
It requires energy for the Hive Fleet to create the Biomorphs it sends down to a planet to consume. It's going to want as much of that biomass back, and thus the conquering army... assuming it is victorious... is then all rendered back down into nutrient goo to be fed up to the orbiting Hive Fleet via capillary towers. If they didn't, that's thousands to millions of tons of biomass left sitting around on a dead world with nothing to do. All those Tyranid units left on a lifeless rock with nowhere to go and nothing to do. Far better for the Hive to reclaim their biomass and recycle it to move on and invade the next planet.
These capillary towers then devour themselves from the ground up, ensuring that the Hive Fleet regains as much biomass from the devoured planet as possible.
This is why the atom-destroying weapons of the Necrons are so devastating against the Tyranid. They leave no dead to consume and recycle.
Exergy wrote: Perhaps you should re-examine the foolish human science you seem to know nothing about. With our primitive understanding we have been able to make biomass out of all matter in the galaxy 60 years ago. Perhaps tyranids are the primative ones, unable to create biomass out of rocks and stars like 20th century humans can.
You're suggesting we know how to create biological weapons with the full range of functions that modern Earth animals have, and that whatever method tyranids use to create the biological weapons we see in fluff and on tabletop is more primitive than what we have come up with so far.
