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Of course Tyranids can die out by overpopulation! There is only so much biomass a galaxy can have at any given point because the conditions that form it is very specific. Hell, if a planet is off by a few hundred thousand kilometers (A very, very, very small distance on a cosmological scale) off of the habitable zone then it will not have the food the Tyranids need. So, if the Nids gorged themselves on a galaxy that just happened to have a lot of biomass and came upon a galaxy that didn't... then that would be bad. Life forms need constant energy input to sustain themselves. If they came upon a galaxy that completely lacked biomass then they would go extinct.

In fact, I would say that is the ultimate fate of the Nids. Once they happen to run into a lifeless galaxy (Or run out galaxies they can reach without expending all of their biomass) then they will wither and die out.

I'd put the Tyranids at an unfathomable amount of creatures, but I don't think they'll actually be able to finish of this galaxy, especially with the fact that most planets that could be are teeming with Orks. Or maybe they will, and the next galaxy is even more fethed than ours was. Also, I always got the impression that Tyranids consume all life and then using the energy they've got from that galaxy to travel to the next, so essentially they start at the same point each time, at a point of near starvation.

 Lobomalo wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
You are applying modern day logic and physics to a universe approximately 39,000 years from now. We would know much more then and more likely than not would have found a way to be 100% efficient.

...No. I really don't think you understand this. Granted, there are some parts of physics we know gak-all about, especially Quantum physics, which will likely look very very different in the future. But Thermodynamics is one of those absolute laws of the universe that cannot be broken- it doesn't matter how advanced you are or how old your civilization is, it's an absolute rule that doesn't change so long as you're in this universe. While I could see something like Daemons being completely efficient by them coming from an alternate universe/dimension that does not abide by the physical laws of ours, nids? They're under by our rules and have to play by them.... or else. It's the simple fact. set in stone, that energy cannot be completely applied to something without losing some of it. This isn't going to change inf thirty eight thousand years from now. We might maybe cheat by entering a different universe, but in our home universe? There's no getting around it.

Plus again, there is absolutely NO evidence pointing to Tyranids operating at 100% efficiency! If something was actually 100% efficient, it would not need to eat in the first place. However we do know Tyranids need to eat, which means they do suffer from a diminishing return of energy, and that their numbers do have a cap on the bell curve. There is most definitely a maximum number of organisms Tyranids as a civilization can support before they implode and are threatened with extinction by overpopulation, the only solution to which is cannibalism. The thing though is that we don't know what exactly this number caps at, and if they've reached it in the past or are heading to it.

The most logical conclusion however is that Tyranid numbers are diminished from their full glory after they've immediately consumed a galaxy, and are having to build up again for war again. We've seen multiple parts of the Black Library pointing to the Tyranid Hive Fleets ridding themselves of unnecessary biomorphs and consuming them for later use. They also sent the Genestealers in at an earlier time, maybe even long in the past as probes to find biomass to consume, which also points to the Tyranids being fearful of wasting energy, which means it sure isn't free for them.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 LumenPraebeo wrote:
If they were smarter than man, or superior, the Imperium of man would have been dead already. Think of it like man and wolves. Wolves have not proven themselves superior to man yet. And I doubt they ever will. Or roaches and man.

-But tyranids are much deadlier than wolves and more viral than roaches.
And the Imperium is much deadlier and numerous than modern day man, or ancient man.

The Even if the Imperium out-numbered the Tyranids with regards to manpower (they don't), the Imperium has one fatal flow: It uses planets.

Nids don't use planets, they just strip mine them and keep going. Ergo every time they take a planet from the Imperium they not only gain ground and kill that many 'umies, but they make it so there's absolutely no potential for that planet to be a threat ever again. It will never be resettled, repopulated, or re-established. It's gone.

Orks can terraform it and put organic matter back down if a Rokk hits it. Hence why the Orks and Tyranids are a perfect match as symbiotic civilizations, or at least the perfect fitting puzzle piece that enables stability for both factions. Tyranids are the farmers that reap what the Orks sow.

Always wanted to quote this.

"The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence."

Just because we don't know that they are 100% efficient, does not mean that we don't. A creature that can continuously evolve to adapt to absolutely anything it wants sounds efficient to me. The Tyranids simply require bio-mass to initiate the process, but where in any lore does it state they actually need food?

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGH

Do you even know what I'm talking about when discussing energy efficiency? Do you know what the Three Laws of Thermodynamics are, or what they mean? Have you completed a high school physics class? Because those are the only reasons I can come up with for this just... asinine line of reasoning of yours that makes about as much sense as a person claiming that there are in fact an actual species of Unicorns on earth, or Bigfoot is real, because "hur duur" a lack of evidence doesn't mean they don't exist. No. That's not how the Scientific Method has ever worked. You need evidence to back up your claims, and no, a lack of evidence is not ever evidence if you are claiming something. There isn't a single goddamn reason why we should ever think Tyranids ignore the third law of Thermodynamics and are perpetual energy machines that don't need any sort of food or fuel to move. Because you kinda need a lot of evidence to back up a claim that something completely and utterly breaks physical laws and is a complete Non Sequitur to its own existence in the fiction in the first place.

[And where it states they need food? The fact that Tyranids survive by biomass, and common fething sense tells us they don't break a solid law of how this universe works. The Tyranids eat. Something that operates at 100% efficiency does not need to really eat at all.. It's redundant as they could make photosynthesis efficient. There would be absolutely no reason for Tyranids to bother eating galaxies, hell even move. At complete efficiency and breaking thermodynamics you really wouldn't have to do anything besides maybe just absorb calories from the sun and remain static. You wouldn't have to bother moving, hell the best evolutionary path your could walk would be to become a glorified tree with a nervous system. But the fact that Tyranids gamble their energy reserves like any other predator and fight desperately against other lifeforms with claw, tooth, and nail for food blows apart any argument that they're 100% efficient, because it's be counter-productive for such an animal.

And how the feth does something that can continuously evolve at a rapid pace sound like an efficient animal to you? Hell that means they're probably expending more energy than normal and have a massive metabolism. Plus it's a stupid statement given that all life constantly evolves, and bacteria probably evolve at a faster rate than Tyranids could ever hope fore, and bacteria do not break the third law of thermodynamics despite being some of the most efficient life in existence and the most adaptable.


Now while I'm taking deep breaths to calm down and stop this headache, could you please just kindly read the Laws of Thermodynamics on wikipedia and/or watch a lecture on youtube on why 100% efficiency is impossible? It'd save me a lot of tears and headaches.

Just as a quick reference, here's an article on the energy effeciency of a human being, which is at the 25% mark, which is actually pretty damn miraculous compared to machines.

Now I'm sorry if I come off overly hostile, I admit I have anger issues, but I really don't respond well to a person basically trying to argue that gravity isn't a known fact and that, in our universe, you can fall "up". Or that Bigfoot's real. It makes the science nerd in me scream.

But... Bigfoot is real :(

That aside, you are arguing with a fallacy.

If you claim something you must be able to prove it.

 raiden wrote:
But... Bigfoot is real :(

That aside, you are arguing with a fallacy.

If you claim something you must be able to prove it.

I know, but I'll still try dammit. I just... ugh. It seriously makes my brain hurt to think somebody could seriously argue Tyranids are 100% energy effecient despite them being known as the Great Devourer. Plus silly things like a biological lifeform being more energy efficient than a Star. Hell even a hypothetical Antimatter Reactor wouldn't be that good.

 Wyzilla wrote:
I know, but I'll still try dammit. I just... ugh. It seriously makes my brain hurt to think somebody could seriously argue Tyranids are 100% energy effecient despite them being known as the Great Devourer. Plus silly things like a biological lifeform being more energy efficient than a Star. Hell even a hypothetical Antimatter Reactor wouldn't be that good.

You know what? now I change my mind, I DO think tyranids are 100% energy efficient now.

 Lobomalo wrote:
But the Tyranids already have surpassed the Imperiums manpower though, it just isn't all concentrated in one tendril.

Tyranids both breed and mature much faster than man does as well

they may, but they have to grow everything, which actually isnt the best way to fight a war. If you say lose an infantry division in a bombing attack, what that usually means is that the squishy components of the division. The vehicles, guns, supplies are often just fine, but the people are dead. Add new people and you have your infantry division again. A nid unit that gets bombed is dead, completely dead. Sure it can be reprocessed into new 'nid but time and energy are lost.

Which brings me to the next point. Races with arms armor and people have to sustain really only the people. While shipping an army across space, the people need food and reinforcements as they die, but the machines keep on chugging. 'nids on the other hand consume energy as they move always. They keep needing to be replaced as they are all mortal.

So how much did the 'nids have to spend getting from their galaxy to this one. They probably lost a lot of their galaxy beating power just preparing for inter galatic travel and then more on the trip here. Also did they send their forces at just one galaxy or did they divide them into 2+ parts and make for multiple galaxies. If only 1/10 of the invasion is actually headed for the milky way, the other 9/10th really arent a concern as they are too far away to contribute.

Which brings us to the hive mind. The hive mind is smart. It wants to consume all. It would not send 100% of it's forces in one direction. It would divide it's forces to conquer more galaxies at the same time. It would divide them down until it thinks it has a reasonable chance of still conquering any galaxy it encounters. Even if it sent everything it wouldnt have a 100% chance of success, as it doesnt really know what to expect in the new galaxy when it arrives. Similarly if it sent just a very small fleet to every galaxy, that small fleet might have some chance to succeed but most would probably be turned back.

So if the hive mind is intelligent, it would send a large enough fleet to the milky way to have a reasonable chance to win. In it's initial estimation probably 50-66%. But.... that is the initial estimate from far far away. The milkyway is home to a number of oddities, chaos, the god emperor, the necrons that not every galaxy would possess. Initially the 'nids must have thought there is a chance there is no life in the galaxy, there is a chance there is a united-strong-military that could defeat them, and there is a chance there is life that is disorganized and could be divided and defeated easily. The IoM is somewhere between united-strong and disorganized. It could be that the milky way is weaker to a 'nid attack than most and that upon reaching the outer rim the milkyway was doomed to be consumed. It could also be that the milkyway is strong, that some of those unique critters that the hive mind didnt know about are so powerful that the 'nids have no chance to win.
The 'nids obviously didnt expect the god emperor, as they didnt enter the galaxy heading straight for earth. Upon entering the galaxy and detecting the astronomican, they changed course, which indicates they realize the threat the emperor and the IoM represent to them.




So in conclusion, the 'nids are vast and powerful, but really not that much more powerful in the milkyway than anyone else. At least they are on the same scale. Probably much smaller than the IoM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LumenPraebeo wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
I know, but I'll still try dammit. I just... ugh. It seriously makes my brain hurt to think somebody could seriously argue Tyranids are 100% energy effecient despite them being known as the Great Devourer. Plus silly things like a biological lifeform being more energy efficient than a Star. Hell even a hypothetical Antimatter Reactor wouldn't be that good.

You know what? now I change my mind, I DO think tyranids are 100% energy efficient now.

So they violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics?


hmm if perpetual motion machines are possible in 40k, what else is possible.

Also if they are 100% efficient, why head out and conquer stuff?

You are still applying modern day principles to a fictitious futuristic universe with faster than light travel and the ability to move into different dimensions.

And you are harping on about 100% efficiency?

Tyranids are infinite of course! Just enough to be a continuous threat that loses just as all other factions do to the Imperium

 Wyzilla wrote:
And where it states they need food? The fact that Tyranids survive by biomass, and common fething sense tells us they don't break a solid law of how this universe works. The Tyranids eat. Something that operates at 100% efficiency does not need to really eat at all.. It's redundant as they could make photosynthesis efficient. There would be absolutely no reason for Tyranids to bother eating galaxies, hell even move. At complete efficiency and breaking thermodynamics you really wouldn't have to do anything besides maybe just absorb calories from the sun and remain static. You wouldn't have to bother moving, hell the best evolutionary path your could walk would be to become a glorified tree with a nervous system. But the fact that Tyranids gamble their energy reserves like any other predator and fight desperately against other lifeforms with claw, tooth, and nail for food blows apart any argument that they're 100% efficient, because it's be counter-productive for such an animal.

Actually it would make sense for their bioships to process using something along the lines of photosynthesis, maybe even absorb cosmic dust and such while the majority of the biomass carried is in stasis. This would allow for long periods of travel with minimal energy expenditure and an increase in energy between 'feedings'.

Then the fleet attacks and strips a planet for a large quantity of quick energy, not unlike an ambush predator such as an alligator but at the scale of an entire ecosystem.

 Exergy wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
But the Tyranids already have surpassed the Imperiums manpower though, it just isn't all concentrated in one tendril.

Tyranids both breed and mature much faster than man does as well

they may, but they have to grow everything, which actually isnt the best way to fight a war. If you say lose an infantry division in a bombing attack, what that usually means is that the squishy components of the division. The vehicles, guns, supplies are often just fine, but the people are dead. Add new people and you have your infantry division again. A nid unit that gets bombed is dead, completely dead. Sure it can be reprocessed into new 'nid but time and energy are lost.

Which brings me to the next point. Races with arms armor and people have to sustain really only the people. While shipping an army across space, the people need food and reinforcements as they die, but the machines keep on chugging. 'nids on the other hand consume energy as they move always. They keep needing to be replaced as they are all mortal.

So how much did the 'nids have to spend getting from their galaxy to this one. They probably lost a lot of their galaxy beating power just preparing for inter galatic travel and then more on the trip here. Also did they send their forces at just one galaxy or did they divide them into 2+ parts and make for multiple galaxies. If only 1/10 of the invasion is actually headed for the milky way, the other 9/10th really arent a concern as they are too far away to contribute.

Which brings us to the hive mind. The hive mind is smart. It wants to consume all. It would not send 100% of it's forces in one direction. It would divide it's forces to conquer more galaxies at the same time. It would divide them down until it thinks it has a reasonable chance of still conquering any galaxy it encounters. Even if it sent everything it wouldnt have a 100% chance of success, as it doesnt really know what to expect in the new galaxy when it arrives. Similarly if it sent just a very small fleet to every galaxy, that small fleet might have some chance to succeed but most would probably be turned back.

So if the hive mind is intelligent, it would send a large enough fleet to the milky way to have a reasonable chance to win. In it's initial estimation probably 50-66%. But.... that is the initial estimate from far far away. The milkyway is home to a number of oddities, chaos, the god emperor, the necrons that not every galaxy would possess. Initially the 'nids must have thought there is a chance there is no life in the galaxy, there is a chance there is a united-strong-military that could defeat them, and there is a chance there is life that is disorganized and could be divided and defeated easily. The IoM is somewhere between united-strong and disorganized. It could be that the milky way is weaker to a 'nid attack than most and that upon reaching the outer rim the milkyway was doomed to be consumed. It could also be that the milkyway is strong, that some of those unique critters that the hive mind didnt know about are so powerful that the 'nids have no chance to win.
The 'nids obviously didnt expect the god emperor, as they didnt enter the galaxy heading straight for earth. Upon entering the galaxy and detecting the astronomican, they changed course, which indicates they realize the threat the emperor and the IoM represent to them.




So in conclusion, the 'nids are vast and powerful, but really not that much more powerful in the milkyway than anyone else. At least they are on the same scale. Probably much smaller than the IoM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LumenPraebeo wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
I know, but I'll still try dammit. I just... ugh. It seriously makes my brain hurt to think somebody could seriously argue Tyranids are 100% energy effecient despite them being known as the Great Devourer. Plus silly things like a biological lifeform being more energy efficient than a Star. Hell even a hypothetical Antimatter Reactor wouldn't be that good.

You know what? now I change my mind, I DO think tyranids are 100% energy efficient now.

So they violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics?


hmm if perpetual motion machines are possible in 40k, what else is possible.

Also if they are 100% efficient, why head out and conquer stuff?

So if The Hive Mind did only send 1/10 of its forces toward the Milky Way then who is to say that the other 9/10's weren't successful and have now grown incredibly strong from a nearby galaxy that was rich in biomass but with far less resistance....seeing as the Milky Way is also rich in biomass what if the Hive Mind had planned to converge all forces on this new threat and potential food source....the Astrinomican.....then you can consider the magnitude of the Tyranid race

Every norn queens ship is said to have required the average biomass of at least a million planets. So far I can think of four norn ships that have been annihilated so even if not one other tyranid died and they got every human planet in existence they would have still just swallowed a 400% energy loss. Nid background is just stupidly contradictory and vapid.

 Lobomalo wrote:
You are still applying modern day principles to a fictitious futuristic universe with faster than light travel and the ability to move into different dimensions.

And you are harping on about 100% efficiency?

And because of that your assertion is the correct one?

As for the above... it is just as likely, and maybe more, that a few of these hypothetical offshoots have weakened some due to a unsuccessful venture or have been annhililated by a race technologically adept than them. We really don't know how large the Tyranid race is but it sure as hell isn't as big as 12 galaxies worth of Biomass converted into ground troops. In fact, most of that has been probably spent already just lugging the Hive Fleet over here.

we can't know how many Nids there are. There are no definite numbers as to how many Tyranids there are only in-fluff speculations. The Tyranids in the galaxy could be the tip of the iceberg or the last of their kind. We will never know.

I will agree with most of my colleagues here that the Tyranid race is uncountable. Due to the vague hints and references to further unseen forces, plus suggestions of potential historical contact with them before (such as the Catachan devil). It is just not possible to get an idea of what their technical numbers are. That being said, on the completely pointless discussion on energy efficiency and certain aspects of Tyranid fluff, here is what I will say. Biomass does not include only purely organic material. When a Tyranid invasion fleet consumes a planet, they have organisms that can burrow through the mantle of the planet and tap into the geothermal energies of the core. When that planet is done being harvest, there is little to nothing left beyond barren rock on the surface. I don't know if it is possible, but they might even be able to harvest the resources locked into the molten center of the planet. For the sake of convenience, they are energy efficient, but not in the sense of perpetual motion. To my best understanding, they have some way of condensing that energy.

Consider the following; each Tyranid organism is a miniature reactor unto itself. The larger ones are easier to observe in this fashion, but most of them generate so much heat from their rapid metabolisms that they have built in chimneys designed to eject the hot gases away from their bodies, while simultaneously generating spores designed to be ejected in those gases to spread and further assist the Tyranids in assimilating the local fauna for harvesting. To correct one poster from earlier in this discussion, Tyranids may have their quirks, but you overlooked the fact that when they do feed and later sacrifice themselves to the reclamation pools, they do reclaim all the biomass that went into the creation of the organism, plus all that it managed to collect. So while it is not perfect, one can assume that any energy expended and lost is minimal and easily reclaimed with the additional biomass collected. They don't even have an end to their digestion tracks.

Consider the life cycle of the Leviathan and the humble Carnifex. Both start out as simple larvae in a birthing chamber, and in only a few hours, or perhaps even as quickly as a day is more likely in the case of the former, both are at their mature states and far, far larger than they were. So, how do you guys explain that massive burst of energy?

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
I will agree with most of my colleagues here that the Tyranid race is uncountable. Due to the vague hints and references to further unseen forces, plus suggestions of potential historical contact with them before (such as the Catachan devil). It is just not possible to get an idea of what their technical numbers are. That being said, on the completely pointless discussion on energy efficiency and certain aspects of Tyranid fluff, here is what I will say. Biomass does not include only purely organic material. When a Tyranid invasion fleet consumes a planet, they have organisms that can burrow through the mantle of the planet and tap into the geothermal energies of the core. When that planet is done being harvest, there is little to nothing left beyond barren rock on the surface. I don't know if it is possible, but they might even be able to harvest the resources locked into the molten center of the planet. For the sake of convenience, they are energy efficient, but not in the sense of perpetual motion. To my best understanding, they have some way of condensing that energy.

Consider the following; each Tyranid organism is a miniature reactor unto itself. The larger ones are easier to observe in this fashion, but most of them generate so much heat from their rapid metabolisms that they have built in chimneys designed to eject the hot gases away from their bodies, while simultaneously generating spores designed to be ejected in those gases to spread and further assist the Tyranids in assimilating the local fauna for harvesting. To correct one poster from earlier in this discussion, Tyranids may have their quirks, but you overlooked the fact that when they do feed and later sacrifice themselves to the reclamation pools, they do reclaim all the biomass that went into the creation of the organism, plus all that it managed to collect. So while it is not perfect, one can assume that any energy expended and lost is minimal and easily reclaimed with the additional biomass collected. They don't even have an end to their digestion tracks.

Consider the life cycle of the Leviathan and the humble Carnifex. Both start out as simple larvae in a birthing chamber, and in only a few hours, or perhaps even as quickly as a day is more likely in the case of the former, both are at their mature states and far, far larger than they were. So, how do you guys explain that massive burst of energy?

You throw enough energy at the problem and you'll get spectacular results. What of it?

Also, if they really do expend that much energy that the living organisms need heat exhausts in of themselves then Tyranids are more wasteful of energy than I thought. Also, you will never get all of the energy you put into a Carnifex back (Or even most of it) since, like you said, they burn so much of it off just moving around and consuming biological matter for energy is inherently inefficient.




Though, I do wonder why Tyranids even bother eating worlds if they can get their energy elsewhere. Perhaps a vestigial trait from when they couldn't that the Hive Mind doesn't care to dispose of?

 TheCustomLime wrote:
You throw enough energy at the problem and you'll get spectacular results. What of it?

Also, if they really do expend that much energy that the living organisms need heat exhausts in of themselves then Tyranids are more wasteful of energy than I thought. Also, you will never get all of the energy you put into a Carnifex back (Or even most of it) since, like you said, they burn so much of it off just moving around and consuming biological matter for energy is inherently inefficient.

Though, I do wonder why Tyranids even bother eating worlds if they can get their energy elsewhere. Perhaps a vestigial trait from when they couldn't that the Hive Mind doesn't care to dispose of?

Honestly, true energy efficiency isn't where this conversation should be going. The real question is how they manage to reach maturity without needing food.

While you can consider that wasteful in relation to the spore chimneys on the back of Tyranid organisms, take it with a grain of salt. The fact that they are easily able to harness geothermal energy also leaves the idea around in my mind that in the process of drastically expelling this added heat and converting the environment to their preferred tastes, they can also recapture the thermal energy.

On the subject of burning energy in movement and through general actions, I would argue that while the energy used is great, it is not something on a titanic scale. Like certain animals here on earth, the Tyranids have probably developed and refined the individual species to maximize energy preservation so as even for running for multiple hours or even perhaps days at a time, they can enter a sort of energy preservation state, where they can refine their normal, slower movements with more energy efficient movements so they can get to their next target. As I recall, Hormagaunts are one of the best known Tyranid organisms for this sort of behavior.

Tyranid organisms are born dying, in a sense. They start small and quickly shift into maturity, and rapidly begin burning out.

Speculation: I wonder...to initiate the jump from a larvae stage to maturity, on some level could all Tyranids actually harness their own bio-electrical field to propel themselves into growth? A snow ball effect until completion, with the organism holding at a state instead of continuing growing, leading to the rapid heat build up and eventual burn out and death of the organism.

Simple: Games Workshop writers do not understand how things (Not just biochemistry. Just things in general) so they thing if it sounds cool it automatically isn't stupid by rule of cool. Actually, that's probably the answer to most of questions posed in this thread.

If you want to fish for an in-Universe explanation then it's possible that, since it's implied the material we read is Imperial in origin, there is some energy collection the Tyranids evolved which allows for the growth.

As for the rest of your post while it might be true that Tyranids have probably evolved better methods of expending energy they are still doing it and doing it in large amounts. Probably in larger amounts than they really need to *Cough* Living weapons *Cough*.

But I think energy efficiency is ultimately the thing that determines the size of the overall Tyranid Hive Fleet. Like Wyzilla said the Tyranid Hive Fleet size is on a Bell curve. Their energy efficiency determines what the peak of that curve is. (Note this curve is population versus how much biomass is consumed).

 Wyzilla wrote:
Those arriving at the Milky Way are starving, desperate

I don't think that they're really characterised this way in the fluff. Rather, we're presented with a threat that is extremely deadly and powerful, and is hinted to have masses more of itself coming.

As for the whole debate about the Nids not making sense, well, a lot of things in 40K don't make complete sense. But it's a science fiction setting, and the aliens in question are very, well, alien. I think that some suspension of disbelief is perfectly justified.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Simple: Games Workshop writers do not understand how things (Not just biochemistry. Just things in general) so they thing if it sounds cool it automatically isn't stupid by rule of cool. Actually, that's probably the answer to most of questions posed in this thread.

If you want to fish for an in-Universe explanation then it's possible that, since it's implied the material we read is Imperial in origin, there is some energy collection the Tyranids evolved which allows for the growth.

As for the rest of your post while it might be true that Tyranids have probably evolved better methods of expending energy they are still doing it and doing it in large amounts. Probably in larger amounts than they really need to *Cough* Living weapons *Cough*.

But I think energy efficiency is ultimately the thing that determines the size of the overall Tyranid Hive Fleet. Like Wyzilla said the Tyranid Hive Fleet size is on a Bell curve. Their energy efficiency determines what the peak of that curve is. (Note this curve is population versus how much biomass is consumed).

Well, if we all agree GW writers made this stuff up, then what are we arguing for? No one here is naive enough to assume something can biologically exist without consuming energy. Wyzilla made jumps of logic here and started harping on people for being stupid.

Opinion on nature of the hive fleet>I think its massive, galaxy spanning massive>Wyzilla: No fleet of such size can exist without being extremely energy efficient>Therefore they must assume tyranids are 100% energy efficient>Argument over efficiency of energy

Which btw, I don't think any animal here on earth is as energy inefficient as the way you imagined the tyranids to be.

 Drogga wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
Stuff I said

So if The Hive Mind did only send 1/10 of its forces toward the Milky Way then who is to say that the other 9/10's weren't successful and have now grown incredibly strong from a nearby galaxy that was rich in biomass but with far less resistance....seeing as the Milky Way is also rich in biomass what if the Hive Mind had planned to converge all forces on this new threat and potential food source....the Astrinomican.....then you can consider the magnitude of the Tyranid race

Sure, 9/10 of their force might be conquering other galaxies. But if they are, they aren't gonna get to the milkyway any time soon to help out. It's how much the hive mind sent in the initial wave+ what they can make in this galaxy vs the inhabitents of this galaxy. Nothing else.

 Drogga wrote:
nearby galaxy

There are no such things at nearby galaxies. The nearest galaxies are on the order of 100 times more distant than the milky way is wide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lobomalo wrote:
You are still applying modern day principles to a fictitious futuristic universe with faster than light travel and the ability to move into different dimensions.

And you are harping on about 100% efficiency?

If gravity still works and energy isnt free than I assume the fundamental laws of physics are still in play.

Again, it is wasn't the case, there would be no reason to ever leave their galaxy.

Where does it say they have eaten 12 galaxies?

Also, no matter how many galaxies there are, the one Warhammer 40k takes place in is all together different. It is the origin of the various things that spawned chaos, it has orks, which exist nowhere else and are the only other known massed warp entity, and it has a psycher who can control vast amount of bot heal and warp space in the Emperor. The inconsistent fluff of GW makes the idea that however many previously consumed galaxies are equal to this one extremely unlikely.

 LumenPraebeo wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Simple: Games Workshop writers do not understand how things (Not just biochemistry. Just things in general) so they thing if it sounds cool it automatically isn't stupid by rule of cool. Actually, that's probably the answer to most of questions posed in this thread.

If you want to fish for an in-Universe explanation then it's possible that, since it's implied the material we read is Imperial in origin, there is some energy collection the Tyranids evolved which allows for the growth.

As for the rest of your post while it might be true that Tyranids have probably evolved better methods of expending energy they are still doing it and doing it in large amounts. Probably in larger amounts than they really need to *Cough* Living weapons *Cough*.

But I think energy efficiency is ultimately the thing that determines the size of the overall Tyranid Hive Fleet. Like Wyzilla said the Tyranid Hive Fleet size is on a Bell curve. Their energy efficiency determines what the peak of that curve is. (Note this curve is population versus how much biomass is consumed).

Well, if we all agree GW writers made this stuff up, then what are we arguing for? No one here is naive enough to assume something can biologically exist without consuming energy. Wyzilla made jumps of logic here and started harping on people for being stupid.

Opinion on nature of the hive fleet>I think its massive, galaxy spanning massive>Wyzilla: No fleet of such size can exist without being extremely energy efficient>Therefore they must assume tyranids are 100% energy efficient>Argument over efficiency of energy

Which btw, I don't think any animal here on earth is as energy inefficient as the way you imagined the tyranids to be.

Terran animals are around 10% energy efficient when it comes to obtaining energy from food. I'm being generous with them and assuming 50% or better since they are considered hyper evolved. Even then they'll still run into the problems I described.

 LumenPraebeo wrote:


Opinion on nature of the hive fleet>I think its massive, galaxy spanning massive>Wyzilla: No fleet of such size can exist without being extremely energy efficient>Therefore they must assume tyranids are 100% energy efficient>Argument over efficiency of energy

I don't see how a fleet that is massive must be energy efficient. Those are two different dimensions. Like saying that a tall man must also be smart and that the tallest man must also be the smartest man. They bare no relation.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Terran animals are around 10% energy efficient when it comes to obtaining energy from food. I'm being generous with them and assuming 50% or better since they are considered hyper evolved. Even then they'll still run into the problems I described.

dude, you don't need to eat after traveling 25 miles like a car does....you'd be hungry, but you don't just stop moving. Biological organisms here on earth are much more efficient than machines. We just don't absorb as much of the nutrients provided us as a car does fuel.

This thread - though the absolute definition of theorycrafting - is very interesting to read. Keep it going everyone, this is 40K background discussion indeed!

 LumenPraebeo wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Terran animals are around 10% energy efficient when it comes to obtaining energy from food. I'm being generous with them and assuming 50% or better since they are considered hyper evolved. Even then they'll still run into the problems I described.

dude, you don't need to eat after traveling 25 miles like a car does....you'd be hungry, but you don't just stop moving. Biological organisms here on earth are much more efficient than machines. We just don't absorb as much of the nutrients provided us as a car does fuel.

Yeah but a car doesn't drop dead, you could refuel it after a month and it would start working again. Comparing a machines efficiency to an animals efficiency is apples and oranges, whilst we can both be rated we're worlds apart in the way we work.

 LumenPraebeo wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Terran animals are around 10% energy efficient when it comes to obtaining energy from food. I'm being generous with them and assuming 50% or better since they are considered hyper evolved. Even then they'll still run into the problems I described.

dude, you don't need to eat after traveling 25 miles like a car does....you'd be hungry, but you don't just stop moving. Biological organisms here on earth are much more efficient than machines. We just don't absorb as much of the nutrients provided us as a car does fuel.

a car weighs 1000Kg+
consider the amount of food that 10-15 humans need to consume to go 25 miles. It's vast
now consider that a car going at optimal speed(the humans aren't running) would consume to go the same distance. Probably a paltry quarter gallon of petrol.


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 Toastaster wrote:

 LumenPraebeo wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Terran animals are around 10% energy efficient when it comes to obtaining energy from food. I'm being generous with them and assuming 50% or better since they are considered hyper evolved. Even then they'll still run into the problems I described.

dude, you don't need to eat after traveling 25 miles like a car does....you'd be hungry, but you don't just stop moving. Biological organisms here on earth are much more efficient than machines. We just don't absorb as much of the nutrients provided us as a car does fuel.

Yeah but a car doesn't drop dead, you could refuel it after a month and it would start working again. Comparing a machines efficiency to an animals efficiency is apples and oranges, whilst we can both be rated we're worlds apart in the way we work.

You should only consider steadystate. A human might not need to eat after walking 25, 50, or 100 miles but then it would have burned up some of it's fat/ muscle reserves. A car might be able to travel 25, 50, 100, 200, 400 or even 800 miles without adding more petrol but then it would have consumed some of it's fuel reserves.

In either case you have to add fuel to note how much energy has actually been used.


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Put another way, a 100 kg human would consume 115 kCalories walking 1 mile over smooth flat ground.
10 human would consume 1150 kC per mile and 28750kCalories for 25 miles.
That is 1.2 *10^8 Joules of energy and it does not count the calories the humans would consume just by living for the 8 hours it would take them to walk.

A 1000kg car traveling at a low speed over smooth flat ground could travel that 25 miles on 1 liter of petrol. Which is 3.2*10^7 Joules.

An order of magnitude more efficient

And that is for a car that is designed to get from A to B very quickly, not efficiently. Humans are designed/evolved to efficiently walk around.

That makes things clearer, but for me it's raised more questions. Does this mean the Hive mind only sends forces to places where it knows it can gain more energy than it expended in troops. I mean whilst of course some troops are going to survive and be reclaimed, taking a whole world is going to require unimaginable amounts of resources and even if they do take everything and strip the planet bare of even it's atmosphere, can they really consume enough organic rich planets to thrive? And I suppose for that matter, why waste resources on horde troops like 'gaunts? Mass production seems ineffective if you're a race focused on consumption.

You're basis their energy uses on technology and other mammals when the Tyranids are closer to an insect than anything else.

Let us take Ants, Cockroaches and Flies for instance.

The amount of fuel required for them to go about their tasks is miniscule in comparison to the amount of energy they use.

For them, a little goes an extremely long way.

The Tyranids, being an ever evolving biological species has long since gone away with the need to consume fuel in order to expend energy. As has been asked before, when has a Tyranid ever been seen eating because they were hungry, or drinking water to quench a thirst.

They strip a planet entirely for everything that can provide energy for their evolutionary cycle, not for them to go about doing things. The largest expenditure of energy they have is that transformation into whatever unit they are required to be for the hive. Each unit type needing a different amount of energy, but the energy is not wasted as it is all going into the body of the unit.

Where is the waste from this process?

Which brings me to another question, has anyone seen Tyranid waste? As this would be a by-product of their energy consumption and would show they are not 100% efficient.

Not to mention, when, in any lore have the Tyranids ever shown exhaustion? We don't even know if they get tired.