ironhandstraken wrote:This might be old news to some of you but when i was at warhammer world on friday ,i when to look at the hall of miniatures and all of the sister of battle were gone apart from a sister with a banner and a rhino

That means they're probably out for photos in a battle report or two.

D6 faith points per squad with a 5+ per point to make it work is a lot of book keeping.

I imagine its 1d6 rolled PER faithful unit and on a 5+ you get a faith point. Holier ones (with a relic or imagifier or whatever) might generate on a 4+ (or even 3+) Celestine may give 1 automatically per turn.

Then you allocate faith points to do stuff.

Otherwise you'd be rolling a lot of dice, adding a lot of dice then rolling more of them to get 5+s then getting faith then recording that then spending it.

Phototoxin wrote:D6 faith points per squad with a 5+ per point to make it work is a lot of book keeping.

I imagine its 1d6 rolled PER faithful unit and on a 5+ you get a faith point. Holier ones (with a relic or imagifier or whatever) might generate on a 4+ (or even 3+) Celestine may give 1 automatically per turn.

Then you allocate faith points to do stuff.

Otherwise you'd be rolling a lot of dice, adding a lot of dice then rolling more of them to get 5+s then getting faith then recording that then spending it.

I'm not sure we're on the same page... we 'believe' it works like this:

-Each faithful unit gives you a d6 WORTH of dice to use later and go into a pool. (just set that many dice aside)

-When it comes time to use a faith power with a unit, you assign how many dice out of the previous pool you want to use, then roll... if any of those dice get a 5+ then it goes off.

Of course... this is making several intuitive leaps on our parts... but I don't know why folks were stating that each faithful unit adds d6 points to their pool, otherwise. Guess we'll have to wait till more comes out, honestly.

Marthike wrote:
Will they really get rid off inquisitions from WH?

I would think they fit in quite well since no one ever uses them in a GK army list. If GW actully see what people play maybe they will actully keep the inquisition in WH

iv been saying ever since the gk codex the inquisition would be removed from the sob codex. read the gk's, the inquisition fits with sisters and gk's but the way the gk codex states it, the sob are sol. seriously, they freaking murder sisters to cleanse/purify/protect/ does it matter! their skins. ima take a deep breath and continue in a non-pissed at gw mood.

the inquisition is gone. half of the army that people actually use is gone. good business move i will say that much, it sells models to existing players. it will not get new players though. the fact that the inquisition is now plastic, mostly, and all the sisters are metal with no finecast in announced.

kenzosan wrote:the inquisition is gone. half of the army that people actually use is gone.

Wait what?

Sisters aren't gonna be removed.

kenzosan wrote:

the inquisition is gone. half of the army that people actually use is gone. good business move i will say that much, it sells models to existing players. it will not get new players though. the fact that the inquisition is now plastic, mostly, and all the sisters are metal with no finecast in announced.

Goodbye to rubbish. No one I know that has a sisters army played with any =I= stuff, or very much with the freakshow items. They wanted....a sisters army.

Melissia wrote:

kenzosan wrote:the inquisition is gone. half of the army that people actually use is gone.

Wait what?

Sisters aren't gonna be removed.

sorry, "half the army the people i know" aside from the 1 guy that posted a pic in this thread theres the 2 people in rl i know. i built a few lists for sisters and i had some inquisition, specifically and assassin or an hq.
but yes, i exaggerated a little bit. my point was more the sentences after that.

theres this too, i made a list expecting both inquisition revamped to match gk's and one with no inquisition at all. as i said, no one is gonna pick up sisters with no plastic or finecast models at all, its just too damn expensive when you can just roll something else with much more variety to it. (this is the same opinion i held for de before and currently have for necrons)

carmachu wrote:

kenzosan wrote:

the inquisition is gone. half of the army that people actually use is gone. good business move i will say that much, it sells models to existing players. it will not get new players though. the fact that the inquisition is now plastic, mostly, and all the sisters are metal with no finecast in announced.

Goodbye to rubbish. No one I know that has a sisters army played with any =I= stuff, or very much with the freakshow items. They wanted....a sisters army.

I thought the same until I moved here and have encountered several freak show Witch Hunters armies.

Platuan4th wrote:

I thought the same until I moved here and have encountered several freak show Witch Hunters armies.

Weird. Because I have yet to encounter a single actual player that uses any freakshow stuff. I hear on the internet a few, But the couple sister players I know played with, SOB's.....long time players that have played them through several incarnations from 2nd ed or so and up.....

This was just put up on Heresy-Online from the BoK forums.

source (post #72) - http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/rumours-news-previews/212361-necrons-incoming-sisters-8.html#post1838036

Originally Posted by Jared van Kell
Anyway on that note I think I will spill some beans on the Sisters of Battle from what I have seen so far, much of it is from Pathtyphon on BoK and some from what a source has recently given me.

Basic Composition

The Inquisition Elements are now completely gone.
Assasins are gone.
All units that have the Faith special rule get a 6+ invulnerable save.
Most units can take either a Rhino or Repressor as a transport.

Acts of Faith

Faith has changed a lot. Gone are the requirements to roll over the number of models, instead Acts of Faith are activated on a D6 roll of a 5+.
Each unit that can use faith roll a D6 every turn and this is the number of faith points added to the pool of faith points which is regenerated each turn with no carry over for points not used.
Most importantly is that there are no generic acts of faith. Each unit have a particular set of Acts unique to them. So for example Battle Sisters get to re-roll to hit, whilst Sisters Repentia get to always attack even if slain before they would normally be able to strike.
Each Act of Faith can be used in any phase where it is relevant so a squad can use a Faith point to re-roll to hit in the shooting phase and then another in the assault phase to do the same.

Units

Confessor - May take a retinue in the same way an inquisitor can and may draw from a large number of follower types including many from the GK codex icluding Death Cult Assasins, Arco-flagellants and Crusaders but also Chirurgeons. Allows any unit they lead to re-roll to hit and to wound in close combat.

Cannoness - As before. Can take a wide variety of equipment. Possibly can take a bodyguard of Celestians.

St-Celestine - Similar to before. Has powerweapon that auto-wounds on a 4+. Jump pack, has the fleet USR, a 2+ armour save, a 4+ invulnerable save and can come back in a similar way to Justicar Thawn. Costs about the same as a GK Grand Master.

Battle Sisters Squad - 10-20 models per squad. Can take Rhinos although it is believed they can also take Repressors as well hinting that the squad size for Repressors has changed. May use several acts of faith.

Sisters Repentia - 10-20 models per squad. Have Fearless, Rage, Feel no Pain and are equiped with eviscerators as normal. The Repentia Mistress is eqquiped with power armour and twin neural whips as normal which are power weapons that are believed to auto-wound on a 4+.
Have an act of faith that allows them to strike even if killed before they are able to do so but are removed afterwards. May not take a transport.

Celestians - 5-10 models per squad. May take a wide variety of weapon options rumoured to include combi-weapons and specialist ammunition such as psy-bolt rounds.
may be mounted in either a rhino or repressor.

Exorcist - Largely unchanged but is thought to increase in range.

Retributors - As before but rumoured to have an act of faith that allows their shots to be AP1 on the roll of a 6 to hit.

Here's another tid bit possibly referencing the new SoB plastics. same thread, same user, post# 79

No mostly just repackaged stuff. The Blood Angels codex was a get you by codex until they could adequately devote the time and resources to do them properly. It is a similar thing with this. Oh and yes apparently there are new models on the way according to one very descriptive source.

JvK

Wow, it seems there's conflicting rumors between Immolator and Repressor. Maybe GW is renaming the Immolator to Repressor and increasing its transport capacity?

Re-roll to hit isn't a huge improvement for Battle Sisters. It doesn't affect Flamers or Heavy Flamers and it causes less wounds compared to current Divine Guidance. It's actually a nerf. Now, if they had a faith power that allow them to re-roll to wound, then that would be a major improvement. Anyone whose played Vulkan knows what reroll to wound Flamers can do. But then again, Jared Van Kell did mention they could use multiple acts of faith. I would be satisfied if they at least retain Divine Guidance.

I'm not sure why the Exorcist needs an increase in range. It's current 48" is sufficient enough for anything less than apocalypse.

I have mix feelings about Celestians with psy-bolt rounds and combi-weapons. In the current codex, they are one of the best units because they are cheap, able to take Heavy Flamer or Meltaguns, and have decent close combat rules. They were great for getting assaulted by a heavy hitter and using Spirit of the Martyr to tie up IC's, MC's or any unit that ignores armor saves in assault. By giving psy-bolt rounds, their points might go up.

SabrX wrote:

I have mix feelings about Celestians with psy-bolt rounds and combi-weapons. In the current codex, they are one of the best units because they are cheap, able to take Heavy Flamer or Meltaguns, and have decent close combat rules. They were great for getting assaulted by a heavy hitter and using Spirit of the Martyr to tie up IC's, MC's or any unit that ignores armor saves in assault. By giving psy-bolt rounds, their points might go up.

Is to be some-what expected though, as most 5th ed books have moved away from the "slightly better version of a troop unit" elite units.

I have, on occasion, dropped a Radical =][= and 3 Daemonhosts into a SM army just to mess with an opponent. The truly random and Chaotic nature of the hosts made for really wild and different games since neither of us knew what the host would be used for the next turn.

They will go on the "shelf of cast offs" to sit and look pretty until I find some interesting 'counts as' use for them (retinue choice for a Confessor? Maybe even a Confessor? Priest? IG Psyker Battle Squad SGT?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"I'm not sure why the Exorcist needs an increase in range. It's current 48" is sufficient enough for anything less than apocalypse."

I would trade the range for a missile upgrade. Perhaps a
S10, AP3. While the current AP1 helps, S8 makes it tough breaking AV13/14. Even AV12 is a 50/50 chance just get a chance at damage.
This would at least bring it to a level consistent with Manticores, cheap Lances, Fast Vindicators, and StormRavens hopping up 24" and still getting a PotMS melta shot off at you.
It will also help punk those darn Nid-Zilla lists with 2 Trygons protecting the stupid 6 wound (S6) bug that craps out a scoring unit every turn.

i dont understand how a wd codex and new models can happen. a hold over codex and new models?... reality no longer makes sense.
im happy and sad and confused. how do they have time to make models and a wd codex but not a normal codex?

kenzosan wrote:i dont understand how a wd codex and new models can happen. a hold over codex and new models?... reality no longer makes sense.
im happy and sad and confused. how do they have time to make models and a wd codex but not a normal codex?

They don't. They have time to make a WD codex, then the real one and the models will probably hit in a year and a half, maybe 2.

kenzosan wrote:im happy and sad and confused

Like me when I lost my virgi.....erm...nvm...

I have a feeling that Sister Repentia will become a troops choice in the WD update, I really hope they and Penitent Engines get the scout special rule as that would make them a bit more scary. Then again if you have to outflank just to make a unit viable there's something wrong with it to begin with. If it's true they are around SM cost then Sisters have the cheapest power fists in the game afaik, then again at S6 that's not really impressive.

I really do hope we get some plastic kits with this release but it's GW we are talking about, the old models as finecasts with a 25% prince increase is to be expected :(

carmachu wrote:

kenzosan wrote:

the inquisition is gone. half of the army that people actually use is gone. good business move i will say that much, it sells models to existing players. it will not get new players though. the fact that the inquisition is now plastic, mostly, and all the sisters are metal with no finecast in announced.

Goodbye to rubbish. No one I know that has a sisters army played with any =I= stuff, or very much with the freakshow items. They wanted....a sisters army.

Well, if you didn't know anyone, it must not be a problem!

Kidding aside, I guess my mini-filer plasma cannon servitor will have to be repurposed :( Hopefully my Inquistress model can be used as a Confessor and can still take her robo servant of plasma doom.

MadCowCrazy wrote:

kenzosan wrote:im happy and sad and confused

Like me when I lost my virgi.....erm...nvm...

I have a feeling that Sister Repentia will become a troops choice in the WD update, I really hope they and Penitent Engines get the scout special rule as that would make them a bit more scary. Then again if you have to outflank just to make a unit viable there's something wrong with it to begin with. If it's true they are around SM cost then Sisters have the cheapest power fists in the game afaik, then again at S6 that's not really impressive.

I really do hope we get some plastic kits with this release but it's GW we are talking about, the old models as finecasts with a 25% prince increase is to be expected :(

Penitent Engines scout? you serious?

Are you just trying to make sisters overpowered? I hope you never make an codex LOL

Can you imagine 3 Penitent Engines with scout? That is almost as bad as first turn assualt

WHy? theyre still AV not much with open topped. THey cannot assault first turn (unless you are in spearheard and deploy in a way that lets them do so...) unless they have a fleet analogue I cant remember.

I fail to see how giving penitent engines scout is game breaking or over powered. they are a heavy slot and have to compete with exorcists for slots.

Also one thing that I was milling over the other day is whether or not battle sister squads will get access to multi meltas. I think that would be pretty neat. Being able to choose between that or a heavy flamer would be interesting.

And again I really really hope we get repressors

Marthike wrote:

MadCowCrazy wrote:

kenzosan wrote:im happy and sad and confused

Like me when I lost my virgi.....erm...nvm...

I have a feeling that Sister Repentia will become a troops choice in the WD update, I really hope they and Penitent Engines get the scout special rule as that would make them a bit more scary. Then again if you have to outflank just to make a unit viable there's something wrong with it to begin with. If it's true they are around SM cost then Sisters have the cheapest power fists in the game afaik, then again at S6 that's not really impressive.

I really do hope we get some plastic kits with this release but it's GW we are talking about, the old models as finecasts with a 25% prince increase is to be expected :(

Penitent Engines scout? you serious?

Are you just trying to make sisters overpowered? I hope you never make an codex LOL

Can you imagine 3 Penitent Engines with scout? That is almost as bad as first turn assualt

I had a game where I deployed 3 penitent engines in a squad...

Turn one... a combat squad'd heavy bolter on the other side of the table shot them... they all either blew up or were wrecked. All that is, is 3 hits, and 1 glance on a 4, and 2 pens on a 5 and 6... the glance needed a 6 to wreck (open top, after all), and then just a 5 and a 6 to blow up.

That was a pretty ghastly turn, honestly, lol.

Revarien wrote:

Marthike wrote:

MadCowCrazy wrote:

kenzosan wrote:im happy and sad and confused

Like me when I lost my virgi.....erm...nvm...

I have a feeling that Sister Repentia will become a troops choice in the WD update, I really hope they and Penitent Engines get the scout special rule as that would make them a bit more scary. Then again if you have to outflank just to make a unit viable there's something wrong with it to begin with. If it's true they are around SM cost then Sisters have the cheapest power fists in the game afaik, then again at S6 that's not really impressive.

I really do hope we get some plastic kits with this release but it's GW we are talking about, the old models as finecasts with a 25% prince increase is to be expected :(

Penitent Engines scout? you serious?

Are you just trying to make sisters overpowered? I hope you never make an codex LOL

Can you imagine 3 Penitent Engines with scout? That is almost as bad as first turn assualt

I had a game where I deployed 3 penitent engines in a squad...

Turn one... a combat squad'd heavy bolter on the other side of the table shot them... they all either blew up or were wrecked. All that is, is 3 hits, and 1 glance on a 4, and 2 pens on a 5 and 6... the glance needed a 6 to wreck (open top, after all), and then just a 5 and a 6 to blow up.

That was a pretty ghastly turn, honestly, lol.

Wait, what?

Heavy bolters need 6s to glance a Penitent Engine from the front or side.

Edit: Also, a 5 damage roll on a glancing hit on an open-topped vehicle squadron would kill too, due to the vehicle squadron rules regarding immobilized results. The penetrating hits would require a mere 3+ to wreck or implode an open-topped vehicle squadron as well, given the +1 result for open-topped vehicles and, again, the vehicle squadron rules regarding immobilized results.

Was this in a previous edition?

SabrX wrote:Wow, it seems there's conflicting rumors between Immolator and Repressor. Maybe GW is renaming the Immolator to Repressor and increasing its transport capacity?

Re-roll to hit isn't a huge improvement for Battle Sisters. It doesn't affect Flamers or Heavy Flamers and it causes less wounds compared to current Divine Guidance. It's actually a nerf. Now, if they had a faith power that allow them to re-roll to wound, then that would be a major improvement. Anyone whose played Vulkan knows what reroll to wound Flamers can do. But then again, Jared Van Kell did mention they could use multiple acts of faith. I would be satisfied if they at least retain Divine Guidance.

I'm not sure why the Exorcist needs an increase in range. It's current 48" is sufficient enough for anything less than apocalypse.

I have mix feelings about Celestians with psy-bolt rounds and combi-weapons. In the current codex, they are one of the best units because they are cheap, able to take Heavy Flamer or Meltaguns, and have decent close combat rules. They were great for getting assaulted by a heavy hitter and using Spirit of the Martyr to tie up IC's, MC's or any unit that ignores armor saves in assault. By giving psy-bolt rounds, their points might go up.

I seems a bit odd they would give a new vehicle (the Repressor) without any new models at this point. My money is on name changes or people getting confused on the names. Wouldn't be the first time someone used the wrong names for something when dealing with an unfamiliar army.

I'm more concerned some units will lose SotM really, its kind of a staple for the army, same with the Book of St. Lucius. DG is nice, but I can work around it. But so far there has been no indication that we'll have any of the same Faith powers, we've only heard of new, less useful Faith powers.

Extending the range of the Exorcist is silly, only slightly more useful than extending the range of a Broadside . Seems more like a 'hey, we made the Exorcist better!!', ya whatever, sure you did , how about stabilizing the # of shots instead (d3+2 rather than D6, for example).

, I wish they'd just leave my Sisters alone.

If they are going to change the Exorcist they should make it either Heavy 4 and give it an option to fire it as a Large Blast Str 6 Ap 3. It helps fill up one of the holes the army has and it makes the unti more reliable. I've had more than a few games where I never got more than 1 shot off before they were wrecked or rendered useless (lose their only weapon).

dkellyj wrote:I have, on occasion, dropped a Radical =][= and 3 Daemonhosts into a
I would trade the range for a missile upgrade. Perhaps a
S10, AP3. While the current AP1 helps, S8 makes it tough breaking AV13/14. Even AV12 is a 50/50 chance just get a chance at damage.
This would at least bring it to a level consistent with Manticores, cheap Lances, Fast Vindicators, and StormRavens hopping up 24" and still getting a PotMS melta shot off at you.
It will also help punk those darn Nid-Zilla lists with 2 Trygons protecting the stupid 6 wound (S6) bug that craps out a scoring unit every turn.

I wouldn't trade AP1 for the world. You do know that they're basically the best transport hunting Heavy Support slot in the game, right? Long Fangs and Vendettas WISH they were AP1. You shouldn't really be having issues with AV13/14 with the ridiculous amount of Melta you can pack into Witch Hunters lists.

Losing AP1 would be a SEVERE nerf to the Exorcist.

KestrelM1 wrote:I wouldn't trade AP1 for the world. You do know that they're basically the best transport hunting Heavy Support slot in the game, right? Long Fangs and Vendettas WISH they were AP1. You shouldn't really be having issues with AV13/14 with the ridiculous amount of Melta you can pack into Witch Hunters lists.

Losing AP1 would be a SEVERE nerf to the Exorcist.

I don't know about the world, but it is certainly useful. Str 10 AP 2 would be nice. D6 S9 AP2 would still be awesome. D6 S8 AP 1 is just soooo awesome though. It makes the exorcist a jack of all trades vehicle. You can take anything down, really.

Personally, I hope for compelling Heavy Slots to compete with exorcists. Right now, they are just a no-brainer. And (wishlisting) it might be nice if you could squadron exorcists. Can you imagine 3d6 S8 AP 1? The limiter would be squadron rules and limited target. Although whatever you did shoot at would certainly hate you for it.

pretre wrote: Can you imagine 3d6 S8 AP 1?

It's a beautiful thing. Took down The Nightbringer in an apoc game on the first turn in one 4D6 volley. Rolled really well, but that happens sometimes.

I'd really hate to lose the AP1. Gives them a nasty bite that a lot of people don't expect up front. "What do you mean they're not just krak missiles‽"

Marthike wrote:Penitent Engines scout? you serious?

Are you just trying to make sisters overpowered? I hope you never make an codex LOL

Can you imagine 3 Penitent Engines with scout? That is almost as bad as first turn assualt

I take it you have never used Penitent Engines and just looked at their stats and said WOW!!! THOSE ARE AWESOME!!

Currently they suck, they really do. That are nothing more than a open topped killa kan with better WS and random number of attacks.
If you use a squadron any weapon with an AP1 only needs to roll a 2 with a penetrating hit to destroy one. With the abundance of melta in 5E it's pretty much guaranteed that they will never even get into combat.
The Rampage rule which allows them to ignore Stunned and Shaken is worthless as just fielding 1 is pointless and if you field a squadron they get these rules automatically due to squadron rules. If they ignored weapon destroyed or immobilised results then the would be better. Then you would need a 3+ to destroy one with a Ap1 penetrating hit, that is still VERY easy to do.

Lets say you do get into assault with them, with I3 they are bound to strike after most units and with such low AV they are pretty easy to destroy. The random attacks can be either awesome or horrible, I've managed to assault 10 genestealers with 3 penitent engines and I didn't even get to hit them before I was killed.
As it is Penitent Engines and Sister Repentia suffer from the same bad rules, they are the coolest models in 40k in my mind but they simply never make it into combat.
If they had the scout rule that might change a little, they could become scary but only if you have first turn and scout move or if you outflank. Unless they get some better rules they will never make it into combat before getting destroyed. They can't kill MCs or other Walkers, they can hardly take on infantry unless it's IG or Tau. The only thing they are good at is taking out vehicles but why waste the points when the Exorcist does the same job and does it better. Vs AV13-14 they are better but they will never get there to prove it.

And I'm not joking, I was told by a pretty reliable voice that Repentia have scout and Penitents are now Fast Attack and have scout. Might be lies, might have been early play test, in either case I dont know for sure but it sounds plausible to me. They look fearsome but will simply never take their points back, heck assaulting 10 Tactical marines with 20 Sister Repentia isn't a quaranteed win. Half will die before they get to swing and that's 200pts down the drain right there.

As for the Exorcist I would hope it got different missiles similar to the Whirlwind. D6 S8 Ap1, D3 S5 AP4 Large Blast, D3 S4 AP5 Large Blast, Ignore cover. This would make it a scary Whirlwind, maybe a bit OP but Sisters dont have much long range anti infantry.

carmachu wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:I thought the same until I moved here and have encountered several freak show Witch Hunters armies.

Weird. Because I have yet to encounter a single actual player that uses any freakshow stuff. I hear on the internet a few, But the couple sister players I know played with, SOB's.....long time players that have played them through several incarnations from 2nd ed or so and up.....

I've got a freakshow inq army...




I'm hoping these guys become more than a nice display.

Maybe an option for different types of ammo for the exorcist? Some large blast templates in the sisters army would be nice....

Also did i read something about assassins being ousted? My Vindicares are the cornerstone of punsihment and my fav way to kill multi-hundred point HQs

Creeping Dementia wrote:
I seems a bit odd they would give a new vehicle (the Repressor) without any new models at this point.

When the SM codex that introduced Drop pods came out, plastic drop pods were a long long ways off. People used the Forgeworld model.

There is a Forgeworld Repressor model, so history might be repeating it's self.

xSoulgrinderx wrote:Maybe an option for different types of ammo for the exorcist? Some large blast templates in the sisters army would be nice....

Also did i read something about assassins being ousted? My Vindicares are the cornerstone of punsihment and my fav way to kill multi-hundred point HQs

Really? I've played against Vindicares with Necrons, and I've seen them used against Tyranids, they never seemed that effective. Perhaps it was the player.

KestrelM1 wrote:You do know that they're basically the best transport hunting Heavy Support slot in the game, right? Long Fangs and Vendettas WISH they were AP1.

You're joking right? Tee hee ha ha joking? Cause that's really funny. A vehicle that can't control the number of shots it fires per turn and only has ONE weapon mount is the best in the game?

Right.

Vendettas, even with their crappy BS3, eat this tank alive with twin linking and multiple weapon pods. Every time.

MadCowCrazy wrote:
As for the Exorcist I would hope it got different missiles similar to the Whirlwind. D6 S8 Ap1, D3 S5 AP4 Large Blast, D3 S4 AP5 Large Blast, Ignore cover. This would make it a scary Whirlwind, maybe a bit OP but Sisters dont have much long range anti infantry.

I like that. I imagine they will limit it to 2 though. Personally, I think the D6 S8 AP1 and the D3 S4 AP5 Blast Ignore Cover would be the ones they would go to (incendiary just fits to SOB).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redbeard wrote:
I've got a freakshow inq army...

I'm hoping these guys become more than a nice display.

Looks like a GK army to me. Why'd you buy so many counts-as DKs?

:(

Marthike wrote:

Penitent Engines scout? you serious?

Are you just trying to make sisters overpowered? I hope you never make an codex LOL

Can you imagine 3 Penitent Engines with scout? That is almost as bad as first turn assualt

if your serious: cuz its totally legit for 3 dredknights but not 3 penitent engines.

if your joking: disregard my comment.

Moopy wrote:Vendettas, even with their crappy BS3, eat this tank alive with twin linking and multiple weapon pods. Every time.

Against av11, Vendetta gets 1.19 useful hits (no cover, immob or better). Exorcist gets 0.91. Not that much better.

Scarey Nerd wrote:

kenzosan wrote:i dont understand how a wd codex and new models can happen. a hold over codex and new models?... reality no longer makes sense.
im happy and sad and confused. how do they have time to make models and a wd codex but not a normal codex?

They don't. They have time to make a WD codex, then the real one and the models will probably hit in a year and a half, maybe 2.

but thats what i mean. theres rumors of new models but nothing about a codex then. i mean why release a wd dex, have models made, and then in a few months release a real codex just for new models? why not just wait? i mean they waited this long already.

kenzosan wrote:but thats what i mean. theres rumors of new models but nothing about a codex then. i mean why release a wd dex, have models made, and then in a few months release a real codex just for new models? why not just wait? i mean they waited this long already.

To eliminate allies and update the last codex that had 'old wargear' to the new standards.

pretre wrote:
To eliminate allies and update the last codex that had 'old wargear' to the new standards.

They could do that with an FAQ liek they did with Dark Angels and Black Templars. Its not necessary to release a codex over two WD's to do it. Updating costs and removing allies takes less than a page of material.

kenzosan wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:

kenzosan wrote:i dont understand how a wd codex and new models can happen. a hold over codex and new models?... reality no longer makes sense.
im happy and sad and confused. how do they have time to make models and a wd codex but not a normal codex?

They don't. They have time to make a WD codex, then the real one and the models will probably hit in a year and a half, maybe 2.

but thats what i mean. theres rumors of new models but nothing about a codex then. i mean why release a wd dex, have models made, and then in a few months release a real codex just for new models? why not just wait? i mean they waited this long already.

Because it would be the first time in a long time that a WD had decent content. This would drive up their WD sales for 2 months, boosting their currently languishing cash flow. Then they release models and get even more money.

Scarey Nerd wrote:Because it would be the first time in a long time that a WD had decent content. This would drive up their WD sales for 2 months, boosting their currently languishing cash flow. Then they release models and get even more money.

Yep, this exactly. They are a business, after all.

Not to mention C: WH isn't as easy to update via FAQ as DA or BT were, in my opinion. It is older and significantly smaller. If they just FAQ'd out the inquisition and allies and didn't replace anything that would kind of bone a lot of folks.

Redbeard wrote:

I've got a freakshow inq army...




I'm hoping these guys become more than a nice display.

HOLY FK! THATS AWESOME! I really thought the penitent engines sucked but seeing that is just terryifing!

Pouncey wrote:
Wait, what?

Heavy bolters need 6s to glance a Penitent Engine from the front or side.

Edit: Also, a 5 damage roll on a glancing hit on an open-topped vehicle squadron would kill too, due to the vehicle squadron rules regarding immobilized results. The penetrating hits would require a mere 3+ to wreck or implode an open-topped vehicle squadron as well, given the +1 result for open-topped vehicles and, again, the vehicle squadron rules regarding immobilized results.

Was this in a previous edition?

Honestly I don't remember what edition it was, but I haven't pulled the 3 penitent's out since. And it has been a LONG while. But yeah, I know immob's take out squadrons too, but I remember that 2 of them blew up... it MUST have been a previous edition because they wouldn't be able to blow up otherwise... aw crap, my memory is failing me! ugg...

pretre wrote:

Moopy wrote:Vendettas, even with their crappy BS3, eat this tank alive with twin linking and multiple weapon pods. Every time.

Against av11, Vendetta gets 1.19 useful hits (no cover, immob or better). Exorcist gets 0.91. Not that much better.

How are you factoring in the 3 guaranteed shots with the Vendetta vs the unknown quanity of shots on the Ex?

Also, how are you factoring in the usefullness of each vehicle if it loses 1 weapons system?

Moopy wrote:
How are you factoring in the 3 guaranteed shots with the Vendetta vs the unknown quanity of shots on the Ex?

3.5 shots from the Exorcist on average.

Also, how are you factoring in the usefullness of each vehicle if it loses 1 weapons system?

Nope. I'm also not factoring in LOS, points cost, Force Org Slot, ability to hide behind terrain, transport capacity, defensive AV and the rest of the codex. Just what would happen if you shot that vehicle at an AV11 hull.

Er...other than the potential codex any other actual rumors at this point?

I think that someone should post a summary of the real facts in these 23 pages of junk. That way people can debate over the facts and not guess at what might be real/fake and spend 23 pages talking about it.

Summary plox!

The summary is on page 22, pretty much.

What I want from the new list is simple: point reductions on Seraphim, Repentia, and Engines. They are all far too expensive for what they do. Possibly on Dominion weapons, too, so we might take something that's not Sisters/Celestians. Changes on the Heavy slots. There needs to be a reason to take things that are not Exorcists, and right now there isn't.

Right now, most competitive armies consist of either all the Immolators you can spam, or Cannoness/Celestians/Sisters/Exorcists with transports. Maybe a Seraphim unit, but god they are so expensive. Being able to add Dominions or Retributors without feeling dumb would be nice.

Thanks Grog.

kenzosan wrote:but thats what i mean. theres rumors of new models but nothing about a codex then. i mean why release a wd dex, have models made, and then in a few months release a real codex just for new models? why not just wait? i mean they waited this long already.

So when 6th edition comes out and people complain that Sisters haven't been updated since 3rd edition, GW can point to the August and September 2011 issues of White Dwarf and claim otherwise.

MadCowCrazy wrote:

As for the Exorcist I would hope it got different missiles similar to the Whirlwind. D6 S8 Ap1, D3 S5 AP4 Large Blast, D3 S4 AP5 Large Blast, Ignore cover. This would make it a scary Whirlwind, maybe a bit OP but Sisters dont have much long range anti infantry.

Back when the current book was playtested, they had an idea of 2 different missles being shot- the first as you see, the second, was almost exactly that- except it was a D6 S5 or S4, Ap4 or AP5 large blasts ignoring cover.....it was deemed a bit over powered, espically vs IG, ork, DE....basically anything non-powerarmor.

I hope the exorcist still shoots D6 S8 AP1 missiles. That's one of the best parts of the codex.

pretre wrote:

Moopy wrote:
How are you factoring in the 3 guaranteed shots with the Vendetta vs the unknown quanity of shots on the Ex?

3.5 shots from the Exorcist on average.

Also, how are you factoring in the usefullness of each vehicle if it loses 1 weapons system?

Nope. I'm also not factoring in LOS, points cost, Force Org Slot, ability to hide behind terrain, transport capacity, defensive AV and the rest of the codex. Just what would happen if you shot that vehicle at an AV11 hull.

And that's where I think the scales tip. Average is not as dependable as guaranteed fixed number. Combine that will multiple weapon systems + the ability to transport troops on the rounds it can't fire, and the rediculously low cost of the vehicle (allowing for multiples) leaves the Vendetta a better choice.

Thank you for breaking down the math though- good to see real numbers.

Did anyone really think the exorcist is the better than a Vendetta?

Moopy wrote:And that's where I think the scales tip. Average is not as dependable as guaranteed fixed number. Combine that will multiple weapon systems + the ability to transport troops on the rounds it can't fire, and the rediculously low cost of the vehicle (allowing for multiples) leaves the Vendetta a better choice.

I don't think anyone would argue that a vendetta isn't a ridiculously good value. Unfortunately, Sisters don't have access to one. That being said, vendettas can't hide. If they are moving flat-out, they aren't shooting. Exorcists can hide behind terrain or even other vehicles very easily. Vendettas are 5 points cheaper, etc so on.

If Exos could squadron or were 30 points cheaper, it might be an argument, but as it is, Vendettas are clearly better. Just not necessarily against AV11.

The Grog wrote: Maybe a Seraphim unit, but god they are so expensive. would be nice.

I've never found them to be so. My squads top out at 150 points to be able to put 2 twin-linked melta shots into someone's back armor and then charge someone (not to kill but tie up for the rest of the game) blowing faith to keep them alive.

Even if they get torn apart before assaulting, if you can't find a vehicle worth at least 150 pts to blow up in today's game, then you're probably playing a frufru list someone put together "for fluff reasons" and don't need to worry about cost/return analysis anyways.


Example: Game 2 days ago, 150 pt. 5-man serephim squad DS, blows a Land Raider, ties up 6 TH/SS termies for the rest of the game. cost 150 points and 3 faith


One of the problems i have with the people on this thread whining so much about points costs is that everything but our tanks (at least the things commonly taken), have faith, which means most of you guys don't seem to be factoring that our counter assault units currently have 3++ with canoness at 2++, rending in cc, and the ability to become fearless+. Personally, the proper application of faith factors heavily into whether something is worth points costs.

androcles138 wrote:
Example: Game 2 days ago, 150 pt. 5-man serephim squad DS, blows a Land Raider, ties up 6 TH/SS termies for the rest of the game. cost 150 points and 3 faith

One of the problems i have with the people on this thread whining so much about points costs is that everything but our tanks (at least the things commonly taken), have faith, which means most of you guys don't seem to be factoring that our counter assault units currently have 3++ with canoness at 2++, rending in cc, and the ability to become fearless+. Personally, the proper application of faith factors heavily into whether something is worth points costs.

Faith rolls can be failed howevr and are never a sure thing. The Seraphim thing was a bad example though as in order to blow up a land raider you would need to drop within 3 inches of the Landraider with inferno pistols. More than that and you are not even wrecking the Land Raider as inferno pistols are AP2 and have a 6" range. Its very risky to attempt with scatter dice being what they are and the size of the Land Raider. It was a ballsy move and I applaud the guts along with the luck. its not soemthing I woudl normally attempt. I'd rather drive 12" and pile out a Celestian squad of 5 with 2 meltas to pop the Land Raider. Its generally safer and the guns are more apt to wreck the vehicle.

true, I guess a lot of it is that i play the sisters a lot different than other people

androcles138 wrote:true, I guess a lot of it is that i play the sisters a lot different than other people

Its all in how you play and whether you enjoy it or not. If it works for you then go for it though its not a maneuver I would repeat often. Incidentally the 2 Celestians in a Rhino with meltas costs about the same points. Of course you can play it even safer and drive 6" and fire both meltas out of the top without even getting out assuming people lety you run your Rhino's that way.

truth. My main holdup with that is that the large portion of my sisters list is a gunline, and since besides my 3 exorcists i don't have any saturation i tend to stay away from transports.
Low saturation plus 1 or 2 transports=dead transports

That has an appalling chance of screwing up. Average scatter is likely to either mishap you, or take you out of 6" range.

I say they are overpriced because they are. Assault Marines are 20 points each, and average at that price. A properly equipped 8 woman squad is 200 points, before VSS gear. Even a min squad geared to hunt tanks is 160 or 175, depending on if you like meltabombs or a VSS w/Evis. Or 10 less for a VSS with Combi-melta.

To really make Seraphim worth it you have to burn faith like water. I played a Chaos player who commented that they were really good, the star of the game for my side thanks to good luck on saves and good placement, and that I should consider taking more. Then I mentioned that they were 22 points each, and he winced.

Many of our costs are simply not consistent with modern codexi. Combi prices, transport prices, jump pack prices. Sisters need a unit to assault the remains of what you shoot but don't kill, else your Celestian/Sisters squads get dragged into long, drawn out combats that attrit your ability to focus fire even if they don't kill the unit in question. But for the price of a Seraphim unit I can give the rest of the army Evicerators or Power Weapons, kit the Cannonesses for melee combat, and sometimes buy mastercrafting too. Are they really the equal of, say, Hellions, who cost 16 each?

Do you not field actual Sisters squads? A gunline army only works if you take a lot of inducted IG, since basic Sisters squads are terrible ranged shooters.

actually my 2k list typically consists of 3 sisters squads, 3 inq. squads (2 hb/plasma cannon), 3 exo's, 3 5 man serephim squads, jump canoness and around 250 discretionary points depending on who im fighting, usually another jump canoness to attach to serephim. I've actually had a much different experience with basic sisters squads and shooting.

Each sister squad looks like:
10 sisters
1 vet
imagifer

They can divine guidance for marine+ shooting, or, in this new gk ridden universe of ours, tying up a dreadknight for the entire game which from a points analysis viewpoint, is spending 144 points to nullify over 200. also their ability to tie up anything that would otherwise assault the inq. shooting squads or exorcists, get 3++ and spend the rest of the game ducking and weaving while big baddies struggle to get past their holy dodginess.

Difference of opinion maybe, but the list has won tournies

Plus i always giggle when someone says that a certain way of playing something is the "only way". i've seen competitive lists that are so out of left field that it seems almost silly to say there's an "only way" on anything

I'll be honest, I have no conception of how you can beat mech IG, BA, SW, or GK Death-cult/Land Raider armies with that. Or win objectives missions.

I'm assuming the 'inq. squads' are retinues, since that is the only way you can get plasma cannons.

usually then what i do is start serephim on the board, hug cover, cists on transports or ubiquitous av 12s, rely on melta for heavy tank busting, cists if there are no av 12s left. Mech guard are the easiest of what you listed, as locally most mech guard rely more heavily on chimera/Valkyries than the heavier armor. BA and GK aren't too hard either as reliance on high cost models make the armies wicked small.

Hmm. Vendetta vs. Exorcist isn't a fight I expect the Exorcist to win, but if they are fielding Valkyries instead ...

I'm not sure about normal GK, but there is a 2 Raider full of Death Cult + Techmarine, one with a Librarian and one with Coteaz, along with 4 or 5 3 man henchmen squads in Assault Cannon Razorbacks with psi-ammo that is a godawful pain here. The list only has 3 actual Grey Knights in it.

I can't help but think that your list would be better if the retinues were removed for an IG platoon with autocannon HWS units. Perhaps the retinues are vastly tougher than I expect them to be at 7 models, t3, 4+. What's your composition here? But then I also expect you to lose 2/3rd of your Seraphim on the first turn due to weight of fire, 3++ or not.

the retinues come out to 135 a retinue with 2 heavy bolters, a plasma cannon, 2 sages. 1 of them has a psychic hood (duh). And if 2/3 of the serephim get killed after they DS that's actually better for me bc the amount of fire it takes to down them with the 3++ in place means there's less fire goin elsewhere in the army. Another reason i swear by them is that killing //the right// 100 pts can be more valuable than taking out 2-300 pts in a less valuable location. DS behind someone at a crucial moment and gack them, serephim have done their job, any bullet-sponging they do then is just gravy. Very much a kamikaze squad the way i run em, but i rarely (read DS mishap) find them not serving their purpose well. I've thought about dropping 2 of the retinues for some guardsmen (even have the models from my old 3rd ed. basalisk and boys days), but i'm keeping at least 1 of them for the hood.


The GK lists we're finding out here mostly center on purifiers and DKs. Usually the way those games go is 1st turn cists focus on bringing down a dk, 1 sisters squad charges the other (which invariably spend the 1st turn shunting) and combined plasma bath/ serephim/ heavy bolters take out troops to deny objective grabbing capability. //usually// by that point, with the exception of the occasional stormraven/dreadnaught, they're all out of anti-armor, and objective grabbing, and then it's just a matter of serephim tying up the purifiers while my sisters scramble for the objectives.

haven't faced a deathcult gk list yet. maybe i'm ignorant here but i thought you could only have up to 3 of each kind of henchmen in a unit?

Redbeard wrote:
I've got a freakshow inq army...




I'm hoping these guys become more than a nice display.

That pic brings tears of joy to my eyes.

Nah, that's the old limit. The new codex is a unit of 3-12 filled with any combination. Death Cult assassins are S 4, I 6, A 3 for them, and Hammerhand/MoT make them S 6 (Techmarine in each unit, Librarian with one, Coteaz with the other). S 7 on the charge from rad grenades. And they're just 15 points each.

So...

Speculation time...

- Assuming that 6th edition is slated for summer of next year (which seems likely, and is the current popular theory), GW has time for two (maybe three if they really squeeze them in; let's stick with two) more codices. They can put one out before the end of this year, and one due out next year, by April at the latest (maaaaybe May, but that's probably getting too close to 6th edition's roll out).

- GW's likely rationale for releasing the WD codex is so that they can claim, with a straight face, that Sisters aren't the only army still operating with a 3rd edition Codex when 6th is unveiled (i.e. so that GW can claim that they haven't been neglecting the Sisters). And that means that Sisters won't be coming out before 6th edition.

- GW always releases new editions of the game at the end of Summer. The next thing that they've always released for 40K is a Space Marine Codex. This always appears in Fall of that year. GW never releases anything in December.

So the earliest that we might expect a real (i.e. bound as a book) Sisters codex is early 2013.

Here are the changes i would expect.

1)Faith points will be removed and replaced with faith checks (just a straight of LD check)

2) Exorcists will become 10 pts cheaper

3) Basic rhinos will come down to Marine costs, Immolators will be 15pts cheaper

4) Meltas in squads will be 5pts each, flamers free

5) Dominions can take more special weapons per squad for a better cost

6) penitent engines will become 3 wound toughness 6 monstrous creatures

7) Retributors will move to Elites and ALL come with HBs or can take MMs (15pts each)

8 )Seraphim become cheaper and have fleet

But then... this is just a set of predictions after talking to the writer of the current sisters codex (sadly not the future one:( ) at several of the NE 40k GTs

Did anyone really think the exorcist is the better than a Vendetta?

Sure did, about 3-5 years ago...before the Vendetta even existed.
But thas why SoBs and Crons are in so much need of a upgrade. The level of tech-n-toys in 5th ed dexes have really killed the older armies.

So to sum up with enormous amounts of speculation and borrowing from Eumerin's post, this WD codex means:

A) Necrons will be "pushed" back to November at the Earliest, as there won't be room for their FOTM in any WD before then.
B) The fact that it exists shows that GW aren't going to be putting the codex, and more importantly models, out for a while, I'd say almost definitely until 6th.
C) If they are pushed into 6th, they're going to be competing with all the Marine books that need updates, as well as the big armies like Eldar, Tyranids, Chaos Marines, IG. I'd estimate that the Sisters will hit in about late 2014. Emperor willing, I'm wrong, but I tend to look on the pessimistic, and often realistic, side of things.
D) Without the release of models before the actual codex, the WD ruleset will not stoke interest in the army. You can put out as many fanboy posters for an army as you want, but if noone can buy them and still want to eat food, it's irrelevant.
E) So... grand.

Scarey Nerd wrote:So to sum up with enormous amounts of speculation and borrowing from Eumerin's post, this WD codex means:

A) Necrons will be "pushed" back to November at the Earliest, as there won't be room for their FOTM in any WD before then.
B) The fact that it exists shows that GW aren't going to be putting the codex, and more importantly models, out for a while, I'd say almost definitely until 6th.
C) If they are pushed into 6th, they're going to be competing with all the Marine books that need updates, as well as the big armies like Eldar, Tyranids, Chaos Marines, IG. I'd estimate that the Sisters will hit in about late 2014. Emperor willing, I'm wrong, but I tend to look on the pessimistic, and often realistic, side of things.
D) Without the release of models before the actual codex, the WD ruleset will not stoke interest in the army. You can put out as many fanboy posters for an army as you want, but if noone can buy them and still want to eat food, it's irrelevant.
E) So... grand.

yea, that sounds about right. you forgot tau though. atleast let tau get updated, i need something. my hopes and dreams are a shattered wreck held by string about to snap and fall into the warp. thanks gw

joking aside, i do agree with your post scarey nerd.

kenzosan wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:So to sum up with enormous amounts of speculation and borrowing from Eumerin's post, this WD codex means:

A) Necrons will be "pushed" back to November at the Earliest, as there won't be room for their FOTM in any WD before then.
B) The fact that it exists shows that GW aren't going to be putting the codex, and more importantly models, out for a while, I'd say almost definitely until 6th.
C) If they are pushed into 6th, they're going to be competing with all the Marine books that need updates, as well as the big armies like Eldar, Tyranids, Chaos Marines, IG. I'd estimate that the Sisters will hit in about late 2014. Emperor willing, I'm wrong, but I tend to look on the pessimistic, and often realistic, side of things.
D) Without the release of models before the actual codex, the WD ruleset will not stoke interest in the army. You can put out as many fanboy posters for an army as you want, but if noone can buy them and still want to eat food, it's irrelevant.
E) So... grand.

yea, that sounds about right. you forgot tau though. atleast let tau get updated, i need something. my hopes and dreams are a shattered wreck held by string about to snap and fall into the warp. thanks gw

joking aside, i do agree with your post scarey nerd.

Woops, I knew I forgot something. Necrons and Sisters are the two armies that hold my interest consistently so I tend to focus on them.

F) Following the pattern of Imperial/Non-Imperial, if Necrons are indeed in November then between them and 6th edition will be 1 Imperial army. My guess would be Black Templars or something brand new. This then puts Tau back into the same boat as Sisters, languishing till they receive an update.

Scarey Nerd wrote:Woops, I knew I forgot something. Necrons and Sisters are the two armies that hold my interest consistently so I tend to focus on them.

F) Following the pattern of Imperial/Non-Imperial, if Necrons are indeed in November then between them and 6th edition will be 1 Imperial army. My guess would be Black Templars or something brand new. This then puts Tau back into the same boat as Sisters, languishing till they receive an update.

cuz, screw the greater good, thats why. sorry iv been holding that in for hours.

Noisy_Marine wrote:I hope the exorcist still shoots D6 S8 AP1 missiles. That's one of the best parts of the codex.

Agreed.

From the rumors on BoK, this "codex" is going to be quite sad. No more AP1 flamers or 3++ invulnerable. So while they still compete before, now they will be another third tier army along with the Tau.

Omegus wrote:From the rumors on BoK, this "codex" is going to be quite sad. No more AP1 flamers or 3++ invulnerable. So while they still compete before, now they will be another third tier army along with the Tau.

PANIC!

I think that -- as always -- people are complaining about individual (potential) changes without context.

What if sisters are like 7 pts. apiece now?

gorgon wrote:I think that -- as always -- people are complaining about individual (potential) changes without context.

What if sisters are like 7 pts. apiece now?

then everyone will go bankrupt trying to build/update an army.

kenzosan wrote:

gorgon wrote:I think that -- as always -- people are complaining about individual (potential) changes without context.

What if sisters are like 7 pts. apiece now?

then everyone will go bankrupt trying to build/update an army.

I have around 100 sisters... and I would field every single one....




and never be able to get to 2000 points, lol

kenzosan wrote:

gorgon wrote:I think that -- as always -- people are complaining about individual (potential) changes without context.

What if sisters are like 7 pts. apiece now?

then everyone will go bankrupt trying to build/update an army.

Then by that reasoning they will be about 7pts each.

Revarien wrote:

kenzosan wrote:

gorgon wrote:I think that -- as always -- people are complaining about individual (potential) changes without context.

What if sisters are like 7 pts. apiece now?

then everyone will go bankrupt trying to build/update an army.

I have around 100 sisters... and I would field every single one....




and never be able to get to 2000 points, lol

haha. IF sisters are 7 pts a piece then god help me if i do decide to actually start that damn army out of shear stubbornness. i want a sisters army. i dont want to wait over a year for it though.

Just Dave wrote:
Then by that reasoning they will be about 7pts each.

haha!

I don't trust the Blood of Kittens Networks rumors...

When have they ever been right or close to right?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they first predict the Sisters WD Codex anyway?
Didn't they also provide a lot of solid info for Grey Knights?

got some examples or links?

The opening post here for one?

Edit: I'm not saying BoK is always right or that I support them; they seem more anti-social and aggressive than many 40K sites out there, but they do however seem to be a good source for rumours IMHO...

I have a bunch of models saved for posterity, but I don't actually play the Sisters. I don't care one way or the other.

But yeah, the Sisters are apparently cheaper now. In case it hasn't been posted yet, here's what we "know":

Allies gone
Inquisition gone
Faith streamlined
USRs updated to 5th
Cheaper Unit costs

So let start with the big one and perhaps most controversial change to Sisters of Battle: Faith
I was amazed reading around the Net how quite a few people are pretty close to understanding how Faith is going to work. One caveat about the faith rules: I only have most of the story so let us hope someone else can pluck the rest from the aether. The only thing that really stays the same is only faith producing units can use faith. Gone is the over and under rules based on model count and gone is faith powers that everyone can use. It is replaced with every unit has its own unit specific act of faith to call upon.

So for instance Repentia Act of Faith allows them to always land an attack even if they are killed before they can swing. They are little bonuses like re-rolling to wound and hit, no USRs. Now this if fine and dandy if you just pop a faith point and bam! power goes off, but not so fast. Acts of Faith require that you roll 5+ to activate . This makes faith much more unreliable… maybe. In addition every unit that can get faith generates 1d6 faith points per turn. This also means that a new faith pool is generated each turn with no storing of past faith. As well faith can be activated in multiple phases of the game, so for instance you can re-roll to hit in your shooting phase or in your assault phase. What is not clear is a few things. Like how many dice can you throw at a single act of faith? How many times can you attempt to activated a power? If you get an act of faith to go off in one phase does it carry over to the next phase? If you fail an act of faith does that mean you cannot try again in another phase? I don’t have the answers, but what do you think?

Random tidbits
All Faith generating units get +6 invul save
All units that can get transports get Immolators or Rhinos
Assassins gone (Death Cult still in)
Wargear with the same names as GK wargear stay and get changed over. (e.g. Psybolt Ammo)
Karamazov gone
Priests in, pretty much same as before.
No change to the general Bolter, Melta, Flame concept of the Sisters

Specifics
Sisters have about 5 HQ choices including Special

Characters
St. Celestine: Same price as a Grand Master you get 2+/+4 saves, WS/BS 7 Jump Pack, Fleet, Power Weapons always wounds on 4+ Has the power to come back like GK Thawn if killed.

Confessor: Takes the slot of the old Inquisitors. Cheap HQ (Warboss). Can create a henchman band using most of the henchman found in the GK codex. What makes the Confessor extra deadly is the ability for it to re-roll hits and wounds for her and the squad. This is the translation of the rumor matrix. So think for one second about her and the Death Cult together?

Repentia: Cheaper close to SM cost. FNP, Rage, Fearless, 6+ invul, no transports

Battle Sister Squad: Cheaper 10-20 unit size (no combat squads), but has access to Immolators which begs the question… Immolators either get increased transport capacity or Sisters break the rules concerning model count and buying transports. Multiple acts of faith.

Exocists: Pretty much same as before.

Just Dave wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they first predict the Sisters WD Codex anyway?
Didn't they also provide a lot of solid info for Grey Knights?

Dice Like Thunder (before they became The Eternal Warriors) first reported on the WD update well over a year ago.

BoK on facebook has said more sister's rumours in 1 hour!

Heh. Rumors of more rumors.

What is not in the Codex

Repressors
Arbites

The Units (some more information than others)

Canoness: Here is my special shout out to the Canoness: you are terrible. I mean grossly underpowered. Now this is going to sound like a cop-op, but I am not going into details because my hope is that she will be changed before release. It just sounds and looks like she is an unfinished product. She gets her own retinue that cannot do anything; she starts out cheap, but her upgrades are expensive and lame when you compare to everything else. So here is hoping to GW getting her fixed.

Repentia: Forgot to mention they have fleet

Celastians: Cheaper than a Marine, but not really anything going for them (that I know of)… extra attack. Re-roll hits for act of faith

Sister Battle Squad: Can still get a Heavy Flamer

Shraphim: They are pretty amazing. Cheaper than a Space Marine you get a Jump Packing, Hit and Running, and an act of faith that has them re-rolling wounds. You can also upgrade them to run with double hand flamers and melta pistols. They act both as an extra close combat weapon and become assault 2 instead of being twin-linked. So that means Assault 2 melta weapons.

Dominion Squads: Still get 4 special weapons. Act of Faith twin-linked.

Retributor Squads: Pretty fantastic. CHEAP! Talking under Long Fang cheap to fully kit out. Expect the return of the Heavy Bolter with these. Act of Faith is Rending.

Penitent Engines: Again fantastic. Same statline (Walker). No Scout or Infiltrate. Cheaper and can be a squadron aka 9 Engines. They still get the 1D6 attacks, but any wounds generate additional attacks (don’t know if they work like Blood Talons). 6+ Invul (don’t know if they generate faith)

pretre wrote:Heh. Rumors of more rumors.

No What I said was fact just look at facebook. Besides which Mad Cow has shown the second wave of BoK sister rumours.

I dunno those rumors don't sound so great.

I guess the cheapness of the Seraphim is their selling point since re-rolling wounds from a strength 3, non powerweapon unit isn't really that impressive. Melta weapons that are only melta from 3" away are alright when they are on jump infantry but not what I'd call spectacular.

Not sure what's so fantastic about Retributors. They are still only heavy bolters and could already get the rending special faith ability.

Likewise penitent engines sound almost exactly the same but cheaper. Generating extra attacks is cool, but the problem with them was that they never made it across the table, not that they couldn't wreck things once they got there. Not sure how that is fantastic... Maybe the made it into fast attack instead of being forgotten in the heavy slot.

Basically it seems like everything is what we already are using (or crappier in the case of the Canoness) but cheaper. Whoopee....

It seems the acts of faith are pretty much gone as we knew them. No more 3++ invulnerable, +2S, +2I or AP1. He doesn't mention what the Battle Sisters' act is, unfortunately.

Celestians with 2 meltaguns in Immolators will remain the up-close tank-hunting unit of choice with 2 meltaguns that they can now re-roll hits on. Without the 3++ act of faith, they will be a suicide unit however. Thankfully, Seraphim may shore that up with assault 2 melta pistols, and with the potential of two solid melee units in the form of Confessors+Death Cultists/Arcos may have more play on the field. Retributor squads with 4 rending heavy bolters is cute (although nothing new), but I'm not sure if they are cute enough to take fewer exorcists since the sisters have no other long range anti-transport capability. Penitent engines are still AV10 with no scout or infiltrate? Lulz.

Granted, these are bare-bone rumors, but sounds super lame so far. No repressors? Gah... I'm sure all the Sisters players would have preferred to just wait for a proper book. When does this WD issue come out again?

Omegus wrote:When does this WD issue come out again?

August for the fluff and bestiary, and then I think september for the actual rules.

Mar wrote:BoK on facebook has said more sister's rumours in 1 hour!

Oh? care to post it here when you see them so we can all take a look?

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Omegus wrote:When does this WD issue come out again?

August for the fluff and bestiary, and then I think september for the actual rules.

wait. wouldnt it be july? or was that pic of the back cover from july?

Marthike wrote:

Mar wrote:BoK on facebook has said more sister's rumours in 1 hour!

Oh? care to post it here when you see them so we can all take a look?

Mad Cow posted the rumours a post or 2 after I said that =)

I'm honestly curious what the Retributors are bringing to the table that makes the guy freak out (and compare them to Long Fangs of all things). Is a slightly cheaper model going to make a lackluster heavy 3 S5 weapon any better?

Ixquic wrote:I'm honestly curious what the Retributors are bringing to the table that makes the guy freak out (and compare them to Long Fangs of all things). Is a slightly cheaper model going to make a lackluster heavy 3 S5 weapon any better?

S5 Heavy 3 Rending

Well, the rending is not guaranteed until we know exactly how faith works. Does each unit only get one act of faith? Do they get to roll D6 dice each turn and hope one of them is 5+? And even with rending, you're still hoping to get a 6 to penetrate Rhinos, and against AV12 you need a 6 followed by a 3 on a d3. Not impressive. Unless there is something else completely amazing about them, triple exorcists will remain a staple of competitive Sisters lists.

As for cost, currently a 5-girl squad of Retributors with a sisters superior and 4 heavy bolters is 129 points, which is already less than Long Fangs. It depends I guess on what "cheaper unit costs" means for models that are currently 11 points each.

Actually, when you ran nine penitent engines, typically three would make it across the field, and they're pretty good once they're there. They were even faster in 5th, because they got 6+d6 inthe move phase, and then ran another d6.

If the rumours I saw (units of 9?!) are true, I'd be running 2 exorcists and 9 engines in a heartbeat.

pretre wrote:

Ixquic wrote:I'm honestly curious what the Retributors are bringing to the table that makes the guy freak out (and compare them to Long Fangs of all things). Is a slightly cheaper model going to make a lackluster heavy 3 S5 weapon any better?

S5 Heavy 3 Rending

They can get most of the benefits of that now with the current faith powers and the extra bonus to armor penetration isn't super amazing on strength 5.

Redbeard wrote:Actually, when you ran nine penitent engines, typically three would make it across the field, and they're pretty good once they're there. They were even faster in 5th, because they got 6+d6 inthe move phase, and then ran another d6.

If the rumours I saw (units of 9?!) are true, I'd be running 2 exorcists and 9 engines in a heartbeat.

Making a walker unit with expensive models useful by requiring you to buy 9 of them to get less than half of them into combat is certainly a mixed blessing.

No, squadrons are limited to 3. The number 9 is in reference if you take three squadrons of three.

kenzosan wrote:wait. wouldnt it be july? or was that pic of the back cover from july?

That pic was from the back cover of July.

Omegus wrote:No, squadrons are limited to 3. The number 9 is in reference if you take three squadrons of three.

Then they are exactly the same only with the ability to generate extra attacks? I reiterate my "whoopee."

Omegus wrote:Well, the rending is not guaranteed until we know exactly how faith works. Does each unit only get one act of faith? Do they get to roll D6 dice each turn and hope one of them is 5+? And even with rending, you're still hoping to get a 6 to penetrate Rhinos, and against AV12 you need a 6 followed by a 3 on a d3. Not impressive. Unless there is something else completely amazing about them, triple exorcists will remain a staple of competitive Sisters lists.

No argument that exorcists are awesome.

But... Say 5 Girls, 15 shots, hitting on 4's is 10. 1.66 rends.
0 glances and 1.66 Pens against AV11,
.55 glances and .55 pens vs Armor 12,
.28 glances and .28 pens vs AV13
.28 glances vs AV14.
If they keep the AP1 thing then they pop on a 4+ once they pen or on a 6 if they glance. So heavy bolters that could pop a LR. lol

BTW, Exorcists are 3.5 shots, hitting on 4's for 2.33 hits.
.38 Glance and 1.17 Pens vs AV11
.38 Glance and .78 pens vs Armor 12
.38 glance and .38 pen vs AV13
.38 glance vs AV14

So actually, these theoretical HB Retributors are pretty decent with rending.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ixquic wrote:I guess the cheapness of the Seraphim is their selling point since re-rolling wounds from a strength 3, non powerweapon unit isn't really that impressive. Melta weapons that are only melta from 3" away are alright when they are on jump infantry but not what I'd call spectacular.

Shooting rerolls wounds. Seraphim have never been H2H monsters.

Not sure what's so fantastic about Retributors. They are still only heavy bolters and could already get the rending special faith ability.

Not rending, AP1.

Eumerin wrote:

kenzosan wrote:wait. wouldnt it be july? or was that pic of the back cover from july?

That pic was from the back cover of July.

should clarify: is the "july" issue already on shelves? so the "august" issue would release in july or august?

I assumed it was HtH since it was listed after hit and run. If it is shooting (which would make sense) that does make them better when combined with flamers.

Not rending, AP1.

AP1 is half of rending. While the bonus to armor penetration is certainly better it's not something I would consider "fantastically" better than before.

kenzosan wrote:

Eumerin wrote:

kenzosan wrote:wait. wouldnt it be july? or was that pic of the back cover from july?

That pic was from the back cover of July.

should clarify: is the "july" issue already on shelves? so the "august" issue would release in july or august?

The pic is from a leaked copy of the July issue, its not on shelves yet. The August issue will hit in August.

MadCowCrazy wrote:What is not in the Codex

Repressors
Arbites

The Units (some more information than others)

Canoness: Here is my special shout out to the Canoness: you are terrible. I mean grossly underpowered. Now this is going to sound like a cop-op, but I am not going into details because my hope is that she will be changed before release. It just sounds and looks like she is an unfinished product. She gets her own retinue that cannot do anything; she starts out cheap, but her upgrades are expensive and lame when you compare to everything else. So here is hoping to GW getting her fixed.

Repentia: Forgot to mention they have fleet

Celastians: Cheaper than a Marine, but not really anything going for them (that I know of)… extra attack. Re-roll hits for act of faith

Sister Battle Squad: Can still get a Heavy Flamer

Shraphim: They are pretty amazing. Cheaper than a Space Marine you get a Jump Packing, Hit and Running, and an act of faith that has them re-rolling wounds. You can also upgrade them to run with double hand flamers and melta pistols. They act both as an extra close combat weapon and become assault 2 instead of being twin-linked. So that means Assault 2 melta weapons.

Dominion Squads: Still get 4 special weapons. Act of Faith twin-linked.

Retributor Squads: Pretty fantastic. CHEAP! Talking under Long Fang cheap to fully kit out. Expect the return of the Heavy Bolter with these. Act of Faith is Rending.

Penitent Engines: Again fantastic. Same statline (Walker). No Scout or Infiltrate. Cheaper and can be a squadron aka 9 Engines. They still get the 1D6 attacks, but any wounds generate additional attacks (don’t know if they work like Blood Talons). 6+ Invul (don’t know if they generate faith)

Brrr, the only thing that looks good in there is the Dominions, and maybe Celestians (isn't rerolling hits and twin-linking the same thing???).

Retributors... Sisters don't need more anti-infantry. Rending Heavy bolters are not all that exciting. Its not the points cost that make me wary about them, its the slot needed. If Retributors can take Heavy Flamers I'll consider them, 4 rending Heavy flamers is awesome, 4 Heavy bolters, not so much.

Seraphim, cheaper, might be decent. Lacking the 3++ faith and Book sort of gets rid of the current point of taking them though. It'll depend on the points cost.

Repentia... doesn't really matter if they have fleet, I'm still not taking a foot based, T3, reliant on FNP unit that can't get in a transport.

Penitents... I'm not seeing why they're fantastic unless they're half the cost as they are currently. We can already take 9, statline is unchanged (open topped walker?), and they get a 6+ invuln ( ).

Cannoness... meh I usually only brought one for the retinue and to generate faith. But all thats different now.

Could use more info on Basic sister squads, we've had no real info on them yet.


Basically, the Faith powers seem pretty pathetic so far, now with less options.

This is basically the same as the Warriors of Chaos WD codex. An incredibly lackluster bare-bones deal to get you by since they don't want the older one legal anymore, but don't want people buying stuff they won't be able to use (demons, beastmen, etc).

Now if this is like that and we get a real book in half a year it's perfectly acceptable. However I'm not understanding the excitement of the rumors guy for what amounts to some nerfs, a few buffs and cheaper units. It's just not amazing at all. The penitent engine one is the most baffling; "They are fantastic, better and identical to how they are now!!" What??

MadCowCrazy wrote:Canoness: Here is my special shout out to the Canoness: you are terrible. I mean grossly underpowered. Now this is going to sound like a cop-op, but I am not going into details because my hope is that she will be changed before release. It just sounds and looks like she is an unfinished product. She gets her own retinue that cannot do anything; she starts out cheap, but her upgrades are expensive and lame when you compare to everything else. So here is hoping to GW getting her fixed.

I'm pretty certain there's still a 3 month lead time on WD, meaning that it is too late to fix the Canoness - unless BoK saw an early version of her rules, not the final set that will be printed.

pretre wrote:

Omegus wrote:Well, the rending is not guaranteed until we know exactly how faith works. Does each unit only get one act of faith? Do they get to roll D6 dice each turn and hope one of them is 5+? And even with rending, you're still hoping to get a 6 to penetrate Rhinos, and against AV12 you need a 6 followed by a 3 on a d3. Not impressive. Unless there is something else completely amazing about them, triple exorcists will remain a staple of competitive Sisters lists.

No argument that exorcists are awesome.

But... Say 5 Girls, 15 shots, hitting on 4's is 10. 1.66 rends.
0 glances and 1.66 Pens against AV11,
.55 glances and .55 pens vs Armor 12,
.28 glances and .28 pens vs AV13
.28 glances vs AV14.
If they keep the AP1 thing then they pop on a 4+ once they pen or on a 6 if they glance. So heavy bolters that could pop a LR. lol

BTW, Exorcists are 3.5 shots, hitting on 4's for 2.33 hits.
.38 Glance and 1.17 Pens vs AV11
.38 Glance and .78 pens vs Armor 12
.38 glance and .38 pen vs AV13
.38 glance vs AV14

So actually, these theoretical HB Retributors are pretty decent with rending.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ixquic wrote:I guess the cheapness of the Seraphim is their selling point since re-rolling wounds from a strength 3, non powerweapon unit isn't really that impressive. Melta weapons that are only melta from 3" away are alright when they are on jump infantry but not what I'd call spectacular.

Shooting rerolls wounds. Seraphim have never been H2H monsters.

Not sure what's so fantastic about Retributors. They are still only heavy bolters and could already get the rending special faith ability.

Not rending, AP1.

Am i missing something? I have my dex right in front of me and it lists sisters' BS as 4, which hits on 3s.

androcles138 wrote:
Am i missing something? I have my dex right in front of me and it lists sisters' BS as 4, which hits on 3s.

The math is right so I assume he means with BS 4, 10 out of 15 will hit and it was just a typo.

androcles138 wrote:
Am i missing something? I have my dex right in front of me and it lists sisters' BS as 4, which hits on 3s.

No, you're right. I mistyped, but my math was still right. 2/3 hit.

edit: Ninja'd by Ix.

Ixquic wrote:Now if this is like that and we get a real book in half a year it's perfectly acceptable.

I strongly doubt it. I'm pretty confident at this point that we're not going to be seeing a new codex until after 6th edition comes out, which means 2013 at the earliest.

Eumerin wrote:

Ixquic wrote:Now if this is like that and we get a real book in half a year it's perfectly acceptable.

I strongly doubt it. I'm pretty confident at this point that we're not going to be seeing a new codex until after 6th edition comes out, which means 2013 at the earliest.

Considering the big armies that will need doing first, I'd say mid-2014.

Eumerin wrote:

Ixquic wrote:Now if this is like that and we get a real book in half a year it's perfectly acceptable.

I strongly doubt it. I'm pretty confident at this point that we're not going to be seeing a new codex until after 6th edition comes out, which means 2013 at the earliest.

I though 6th was coming out next year.

Ixquic wrote:

Eumerin wrote:

Ixquic wrote:Now if this is like that and we get a real book in half a year it's perfectly acceptable.

I strongly doubt it. I'm pretty confident at this point that we're not going to be seeing a new codex until after 6th edition comes out, which means 2013 at the earliest.

I though 6th was coming out next year.

6th hits at the end of next summer, reportedly, and there's no way Sisters will get their dex between late summer and December.

Couldn't it go 6th release, Space Marines (since they are always first), then Sisters in November?

Not that I really care too much since once things are that far out I lose interest but just wondering.

Ixquic wrote:Couldn't it go 6th release, Space Marines (since they are always first), then Sisters in November?

Not that I really care too much since once things are that far out I lose interest but just wondering.

It technically could, but that'd be putting them in front of far bigger armies like Tyranids, Orks, Eldar, IG etc etc.

At that point won't we just be caught it an ever repeating loop of

[new 40k edition release]
[every army that has more players than Sisters] (which is all of them)
OOPS TOO LATE FOR THIS EDITION MAYBE NEXT TIME!!
[repeat]

We have received 2 rumours for the Retributor AoF, one says it's the old Divine Guidance giving AP1 on 6s and the other that they get Rending.

What would make them scary is Psy-Bolt ammo that it's said Sisters will get as well. This would mean Heavy 3, S6 Ap4, Ap1 on 6s or Rending.

Another question is if they will get Blessed Ammo, then you would have Heavy 3, S5 Ap4, Ap1 on 6s or Rending, Ignore Cover saves.

Both of these would be rather scary imo.

Ixquic wrote:At that point won't we just be caught it an ever repeating loop of

[new 40k edition release]
[every army that has more players than Sisters] (which is all of them)
OOPS TOO LATE FOR THIS EDITION MAYBE NEXT TIME!!
[repeat]

Welcome to the languish lobby. Take a seat and we'll get to you... never.

Haha I don't need to welcomed I've been here in this waiting room since 2nd edition

MadCowCrazy wrote:We have received 2 rumours for the Retributor AoF, one says it's the old Divine Guidance giving AP1 on 6s and the other that they get Rending.

What would make them scary is Psy-Bolt ammo that it's said Sisters will get as well. This would mean Heavy 3, S6 Ap4, Ap1 on 6s or Rending.

Another question is if they will get Blessed Ammo, then you would have Heavy 3, S5 Ap4, Ap1 on 6s or Rending, Ignore Cover saves.

Both of these would be rather scary imo.

Having Sisters get Psybolt ammo just doesn't make sense (not that there is a requirement that it has to, but...), fluffwise Sisters are anti-anything-psyker. I'm not a fluff bunny or anything, but giving entire squads of Sisters psychic ammo would be odd.

Blessed ammo would make sense though, but still a stretch for taking it in Heavy slots, maybe doable though.

Ixquic wrote:Couldn't it go 6th release, Space Marines (since they are always first), then Sisters in November?

If GW follows their established pattern, then the 6th edition rulebook will come out in August. The boxed set will be released in September. The marine codex will then appear in either October or November, and nothing big will appear in December. GW always leaves at least a couple of months between codices, so the earliest that we'd see the first non-marine 6th edition codex would be in either January or February of 2013. As has already been noted, there's probably not a good chance that Sisters will appear as the first non-marine codex, so it's likely that the wait will be even longer. But early 2013 is the absolute earliest that it would appear.

Scarey Nerd wrote:6th hits at the end of next summer, reportedly, and there's no way Sisters will get their dex between late summer and December.

Unless, of course, the 6th edition boxed set will have Sisters vs. ??? as has been rumored for some time.

Omegus wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:6th hits at the end of next summer, reportedly, and there's no way Sisters will get their dex between late summer and December.

Unless, of course, the 6th edition boxed set will have Sisters vs. ??? as has been rumored for some time.

That's what I'm hoping for desperately. However, I can't see them doing something that would please we of the languish lobby.

Omegus wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:6th hits at the end of next summer, reportedly, and there's no way Sisters will get their dex between late summer and December.

Unless, of course, the 6th edition boxed set will have Sisters vs. ??? as has been rumored for some time.

It'll still be a vanilla space marine codex at the tail end of 2012. Sisters in the box just means that there's a higher chance that one of the 2013 codices will be for the Sororitas.

Eumerin wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:6th hits at the end of next summer, reportedly, and there's no way Sisters will get their dex between late summer and December.

Unless, of course, the 6th edition boxed set will have Sisters vs. ??? as has been rumored for some time.

It'll still be a vanilla space marine codex at the tail end of 2012. Sisters in the box just means that there's a higher chance that one of the 2013 codices will be for the Sororitas.

OR, since we are WAY into SpeculationLand: They could push out a Sisters codex at the end of 5th, right before the transition, similar to what they did with Orks in 4th/5th.

Or it could rain Strawberry ice cream and we could all get free puppies. WHO KNOWS!?!!?!?

pretre wrote:OR, since we are WAY into SpeculationLand: They could push out a Sisters codex at the end of 5th, right before the transition, similar to what they did with Orks in 4th/5th.

If they were going to release Sisters before 6th edition came out, I don't think they'd be bothering with the WD codex. The WD codex allows GW to claim with a straight face that no codices currently date back to 3rd edition - i.e. that they haven't been "neglecting" any armies.

To be fair I don't think GW really cares about stuff like that which I almost have to respect. It's not like neglecting Necrons or Sisters for 10 years has really mattered much. If they want an army to wait for three editions with no real codex (like Chaos Dwarfs) then they will and just ignore any complaints.

Ixquic wrote:To be fair I don't think GW really cares about stuff like that which I almost have to respect. It's not like neglecting Necrons or Sisters for 10 years has really mattered much. If they want an army to wait for three editions with no real codex (like Chaos Dwarfs) then they will and just ignore any complaints.

Chaos Dwarves technically never even got past the "As seen in White Dwarf!" stage of things, though.

IMO lately GW has shown an interest in catching up on some of the oldest stuff. Dark Eldar finally got their update. Tomb Kings finally got their update. Ogre Kingdoms is widely believed to be due for their update very shortly. To the best of my knowledge, nothing's been heard for Brettonia yet, so there's one army that's still quite old. But the general impression I get is that GW's current policy is to get players to believe that everything gets "updated" in a "timely" fashion. If Necrons are getting the next codex, as is widely believed, then that would leave just Sisters as the only 3rd edition codex. And now we find out that Sisters are getting a WD update...

Eumerin wrote:But the general impression I get is that GW's current policy is to get players to believe that everything gets "updated" in a "timely" fashion.

Timely? 12 years waiting for Dark Eldar? 9 years for Necrons? 8 years for Sisters? If that's their idea of timely, I shudder to think what their idea of slow is.

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Eumerin wrote:But the general impression I get is that GW's current policy is to get players to believe that everything gets "updated" in a "timely" fashion.

Timely? 12 years waiting for Dark Eldar? 9 years for Necrons? 8 years for Sisters? If that's their idea of timely, I shudder to think what their idea of slow is.

At least it gives you time to get more games in before your codex changes and invalidates your army!

Sisters are not going to be in the boxed starter set if their codex hasnt been updated. GW is not going to put an army with an out of print 3rd ed codex in a box for new players...

There is no way sisters will be in a starter box. It's a wargame. The primary audience is males, and the starter box is geared towards younger players. 13-year-old boys don't want the girl army.

The only way Retributors are going to be decent is if they cost 15-17, including the HB.

fox-light713 wrote:Originally Posted by Jared van Kell
Anyway on that note I think I will spill some beans on the Sisters of Battle from what I have seen so far, much of it is from Pathtyphon on BoK and some from what a source has recently given me.

Basic Composition

The Inquisition Elements are now completely gone.
Assasins are gone.
All units that have the Faith special rule get a 6+ invulnerable save.
Most units can take either a Rhino or Repressor as a transport.

Acts of Faith

Faith has changed a lot. Gone are the requirements to roll over the number of models, instead Acts of Faith are activated on a D6 roll of a 5+.
Each unit that can use faith roll a D6 every turn and this is the number of faith points added to the pool of faith points which is regenerated each turn with no carry over for points not used.
Most importantly is that there are no generic acts of faith. Each unit have a particular set of Acts unique to them. So for example Battle Sisters get to re-roll to hit, whilst Sisters Repentia get to always attack even if slain before they would normally be able to strike.
Each Act of Faith can be used in any phase where it is relevant so a squad can use a Faith point to re-roll to hit in the shooting phase and then another in the assault phase to do the same.

Units

Confessor - May take a retinue in the same way an inquisitor can and may draw from a large number of follower types including many from the GK codex icluding Death Cult Assasins, Arco-flagellants and Crusaders but also Chirurgeons. Allows any unit they lead to re-roll to hit and to wound in close combat.

Cannoness - As before. Can take a wide variety of equipment. Possibly can take a bodyguard of Celestians.

St-Celestine - Similar to before. Has powerweapon that auto-wounds on a 4+. Jump pack, has the fleet USR, a 2+ armour save, a 4+ invulnerable save and can come back in a similar way to Justicar Thawn. Costs about the same as a GK Grand Master.

Battle Sisters Squad - 10-20 models per squad. Can take Rhinos although it is believed they can also take Repressors as well hinting that the squad size for Repressors has changed. May use several acts of faith.

Sisters Repentia - 10-20 models per squad. Have Fearless, Rage, Feel no Pain and are equiped with eviscerators as normal. The Repentia Mistress is eqquiped with power armour and twin neural whips as normal which are power weapons that are believed to auto-wound on a 4+.
Have an act of faith that allows them to strike even if killed before they are able to do so but are removed afterwards. May not take a transport.

Celestians - 5-10 models per squad. May take a wide variety of weapon options rumoured to include combi-weapons and specialist ammunition such as psy-bolt rounds.
may be mounted in either a rhino or repressor.

Exorcist - Largely unchanged but is thought to increase in range.

Retributors - As before but rumoured to have an act of faith that allows their shots to be AP1 on the roll of a 6 to hit.

Sounds like a hideous horrible nerf to Sisters because they can't use Divine Guidance except for Retributors. No, re-rolling to-hit is not as good. No, that still doesnt' make repentia any good unless they also halved their points cost (they'll still just be wiped out in shooting anyway and have what remains put easily into a tarpit because of rage). And STILL no assault weapons for celestians?

How exactly does Thawn's ability work? Is it like Celestine's old ability or closer to that of Yarrick?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ixquic wrote:At that point won't we just be caught it an ever repeating loop of

[new 40k edition release]
[every army that has more players than Sisters] (which is all of them)
OOPS TOO LATE FOR THIS EDITION MAYBE NEXT TIME!!
[repeat]

The story of sisters.

Roll 4+ and he gets back up with a 1" reposition.

Omegus wrote:Roll 4+ and he gets back up with a 1" reposition.

Ah, so it IS a nerf of Celestine's abilities.

So basically aside from Repentia, Sisters just got a bunch of nerfs based off of that rumor. And, MAYBE celestians... whom will still be shooty units with assault stats. Yay.

Omegus wrote:Roll 4+ and he gets back up with a 1" reposition.

Sounds close to We'll Be Back.... hmmmm....

Did you expect anything different?

Omegus wrote:Did you expect anything different?

No, everything I have read has basically confirmed my statement that the WD Sisters codex will suck like a black hole which is also on fire.

Honestly, it all comes down to point costs... yeah, at current points, they'd be terrible... absolutely horrendous.

Half all their points and they'd be horribly broken (cept for repentia, who would be about 'right')...

People already whine, piss and moan when I break out the Sisters, because they "can't be killed reliably"... or whatever... but now they'll be dieing in even broader swaths. If the points are adjusted accordingly though, then it's won't be too horrible.

@Melissia
What have you heard that the WD Sisters codex will suck like a black hole which is also on fire?

Sisters actually would be fairly competitive with a FAQ updating their points cost to 5th ed costs. Other main issue is ranged anti tank really just falls on Exorcists assuming you don't ally in Guard.

Avariel wrote:Sisters actually would be fairly competitive with a FAQ updating their points cost to 5th ed costs.

Read the rumor post I quoted.

The biggest hit is no divine guidance for anything but Retributors, which noone will take because they're taking Exorcists instead. Celestine also takes a nasty hit in that her revival ability goes from an unmodified leadership check at Ld10 to a 4+ on a roll of d6. Celestians will still be a unit with assault stats and abilities but shooty weapons. Retributors will still fail to compete with Exorcists. Repentia will still suck because they'll die easily to ranged attacks and they'll be easy to tarpit due to Rage. Etc etc etc.

I seriously doubt Sisters will be half the cost. A BS3 henchman with carapace armor and a bolt gun is 8 points. Sisters get BS4 and power armor. At best I see them being 10 points and the veteran sister upgrade to be free. Maybe free frag/krak grenades too. Assuming the book stays, each unit will be 24 points cheaper. 39 points cheaper with a 35-point rhino. And that's a very generous estimate. Pretty good disposable troop choices I suppose. The biggie will be what faith they get.

Seraphim getting assault 2 flamer pistols (so S3 AP6 like BA?) or melta pistols (I guess range 6 infernus pistols?) is nice, but again we need more details on faith mechanics.

Units of death cult assassins that can re-roll attacks and wounds is pretty sweet too.

Overall, the sky isn't falling yet, but I'm sure Sororitas players would have preferred to wait another year or whatever to get a proper book rather than languishing for a decade.

Thawn's "I shall not Yield" is leagues above Celestine's current return ability.

Celestine has a chance to NOT come back if you fail a leadership roll and if she does pass and pop back in from reserve she counts as deepstriking meaning she can not assault or move.

Thawn will ALWAYS come back, each turn after his demise on a 4+ he pops back up, and he can act as normal when he does so. That means you can move, shoot, and assault. The only thing that can stop him from returning is the game ending. Thawn returns with his wounds intact, but he does only have 1 wound to start so that remains iffy.

I'd love for Celestine to have Thawn's rule. She might actually be useful at that point.

As to the proposed changes to faith.. I do not like what is rumored so far. Greater simplicity with faith is well and good, but the specialization of some of those faith powers do not sit well with the squads they are assigned to support.

Yeah, Celestine with a 4+ every turn, as opposed to the Ld check, and then being put in reserve, is way better...

IMO, it could change board dynamics... if she is fairly decent in CC or has some anti-tank, when she dies she could potentially start driving folks away from the spot she dropped... problem for them is, she can move 12".

Thawn-Celestine is way better... depending on what else she will have.

*Edit* Forgot to say: Thawn has one massive advantage though... he can hold and contest objectives.

Melissia wrote:

Omegus wrote:Roll 4+ and he gets back up with a 1" reposition.

Ah, so it IS a nerf of Celestine's abilities.

So basically aside from Repentia, Sisters just got a bunch of nerfs based off of that rumor. And, MAYBE celestians... whom will still be shooty units with assault stats. Yay.

Not necessarily a nerf. If she doesn't suck faith like a vaccuum cleaner, it might be ok. At least this way she doesn't go back into reserves and have to deep strike in again.

The problem with comparing individual Sister models to IG, is that the IG have a much better array of weapons and vehicles at hand. I'd be happier with 11 point models if they could get plasma guns, autocannons, and lascannons.

In the end, the new rules will turn on the new faith rules, which are still pretty unclear, and which units have which acts. Why they felt that they needed to specify acts by unit I have no idea, as most people won't remember which act goes with which unit anyway.

You know, Retributors need an act that makes them relentless. That might make them worth taking, if we had some easy way to give them a transport or forward deployment.

Melissia wrote:the WD Sisters codex will suck like a black hole which is also on fire.

Now that is one weird mental image - how could you tell it was on fire?

Nevermind me

Revarien wrote:Honestly, it all comes down to point costs...

I really wish GW would try to get the flavour right first, then adjusting points costs to suit. The "nerf the bastards, then make them dirt cheap because they suck" approach we've seen on the Necron statlines and now sounds like what's happening to the Sisters just makes for unenjoyable armies.

Also i thought Thawn came back on a 3+, and it is EVERY game turn until you succeed. Not a one shot deal.

Add in eternal warrior so she doesnt fold like a wet biscuit to my Grey knights / pretty much everyone else and she may be worth taking.

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Eumerin wrote:But the general impression I get is that GW's current policy is to get players to believe that everything gets "updated" in a "timely" fashion.

Timely? 12 years waiting for Dark Eldar? 9 years for Necrons? 8 years for Sisters? If that's their idea of timely, I shudder to think what their idea of slow is.

But don't you see? Next summer it'll have been less than two years since the Dark Eldar got a new codex! And roughly a year since the Sisters got their new "codex"! And assuming that the Necrons get their codex before 6th comes out... you get the drift. Yes, I'm of the opinion that the Sisters WD 'dex will be a joke and an insult, but it'll be enough to allow GW to claim with a straight face that Sisters aren't being allowed to languish.

Dysartes wrote:

Melissia wrote:the WD Sisters codex will suck like a black hole which is also on fire.

Now that is one weird mental image - how could you tell it was on fire?

Because it would look like this? It's a picture from a simulation of a Black Hole with flammable gas being sucked into it.

Melissia wrote:the WD Sisters codex will suck like a black hole which is also on fire.

Based on...?
Because of...?
Due to...?

How do you know these things, or is your SES acting up again?

My wet-dream money is on an 'assault on sanctuary 101' style starter kit... SoB vs Necrons... aww yeah..

Phototoxin wrote:My wet-dream money is on an 'assault on sanctuary 101' style starter kit... SoB vs Necrons... aww yeah..

We all dream about that.

Marthike wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:My wet-dream money is on an 'assault on sanctuary 101' style starter kit... SoB vs Necrons... aww yeah..

We all dream about that.

Not all of us.

TBD wrote:

Marthike wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:My wet-dream money is on an 'assault on sanctuary 101' style starter kit... SoB vs Necrons... aww yeah..

We all dream about that.

Not all of us.

You are either a liar or a heretic... either way you only deserve damnation and purgation with holy fire!!

Melissia wrote:

Avariel wrote:Sisters actually would be fairly competitive with a FAQ updating their points cost to 5th ed costs.

Read the rumor post I quoted.

The biggest hit is no divine guidance for anything but Retributors, which noone will take because they're taking Exorcists instead. Celestine also takes a nasty hit in that her revival ability goes from an unmodified leadership check at Ld10 to a 4+ on a roll of d6. Celestians will still be a unit with assault stats and abilities but shooty weapons. Retributors will still fail to compete with Exorcists. Repentia will still suck because they'll die easily to ranged attacks and they'll be easy to tarpit due to Rage. Etc etc etc.

But Retributors, Penitent Engines and Repentia will be FANTASTIC since they will be almost exactly the same as they are now, not like how they suck now!!!


Too be fair Retributors don't suck they are just outclassed by the other heavy support choice, which will be exactly the same in the new WD. It's not like Space Marine players are going crazy filling their heavy slots with heavy bolters so I don't see how the chance to get rending on ours is going to make us that excited. Seriously I don't know how a game designer can look at the Engines and Repentia and think the reason they don't ever get bought is because they just don't hit hard enough in combat and is the only thing that needs fixing. It shows a fundamental disconnect from how people play. I'm really hoping that there is some connecting piece of this puzzle that is missing. Maybe the power of regular Battle Sisters is the invul but looking at the current rumors it's probably something silly like +2 strength, strike last.

If their answer is just "nerf the majority of the Sister list (and make weird stupid buffs) but lower points costs a bunch so you can spam a ton of models" they can eat crow when the average decade old sister model is $6 and special weapons are $10.

I REALLY don't like the faith rumors. The old style faith was a powerful, unique tactical tool that you could use to turn the tide of battle a critical point. Unreliable unit upgrades add nothing to the fun of playing the army.

kestral wrote:I REALLY don't like the faith rumors. The old style faith was a powerful, unique tactical tool that you could use to turn the tide of battle a critical point. Unreliable unit upgrades add nothing to the fun of playing the army.

It was hardly reliable before, really, owing to the unit size mechanic.

A Sanctuary 101 starter would give me models for both of my armies and would please me no end, but alas, I fear 'tis not to be.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Melissia wrote:the WD Sisters codex will suck like a black hole which is also on fire.

Based on...?
Because of...?
Due to...?

How do you know these things, or is your SES acting up again?

Google failed me on SES. So now I'm curious... Sisters Ego Syndrome?

Anything that is not her codex in print will 'suck like a black hole which is also on fire.' Even then, I'm pretty sure she'd have a lively 'discussion' about why her codex doesn't accurately portray the awesome that is sisters.

Oh, and since we haven't said it in a page. OH NOES PANIC SISTERS RUMORS!!!

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Sanctuary 101 a massacre (as far as we know), rather than a battle?

Slinky wrote:

kestral wrote:I REALLY don't like the faith rumors. The old style faith was a powerful, unique tactical tool that you could use to turn the tide of battle a critical point. Unreliable unit upgrades add nothing to the fun of playing the army.

It was hardly reliable before, really, owing to the unit size mechanic.

Not entirely true. Proper list building stacks things in your favor. i.e. Full 10 Sisters squads hardly fail Divine Guidance. Seraphim squads in groups of 8 are good at all faith checks due to their special rules, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Just Dave wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Sanctuary 101 a massacre (as far as we know), rather than a battle?

lexicanum wrote:
Sanctuary 101 was an Adepta Sororitas Fortress-Convent on a world on the Eastern Fringes. It was the first place of contact between the Imperium and the Necrons. All the Sisters inside the Santuary were killed and had their skin flayed by the Necrons. Video picts were recorded during the battle, but only showed the Sisters being cut down by flickering shadows, indicating that the Necrons distorted the images.

Just Dave wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Sanctuary 101 a massacre (as far as we know), rather than a battle?

There was a battle, but there was a CLEAR victor

AlexHolker wrote:I really wish GW would try to get the flavour right first, then adjusting points costs to suit. The "nerf the bastards, then make them dirt cheap because they suck" approach we've seen on the Necron statlines and now sounds like what's happening to the Sisters just makes for unenjoyable armies.

But that would mean having some degree of long-term thinking, and we all know GW executives go through a mind-wipe indoctrination process that burns out all imagination and foresight. Well, unless you could the wet dreams of 12-yo boys that result in things like Draigo.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Also i thought Thawn came back on a 3+, and it is EVERY game turn until you succeed. Not a one shot deal.

Add in eternal warrior so she doesnt fold like a wet biscuit to my Grey knights / pretty much everyone else and she may be worth taking.

It's a 4+, but he gets to keep trying every turn.

Ixquic wrote:
If their answer is just "nerf the majority of the Sister list (and make weird stupid buffs) but lower points costs a bunch so you can spam a ton of models" they can eat crow when the average decade old sister model is $6 and special weapons are $10.

Hmm... maybe they do have some foresight after all. If a rhino-based Sisters squad is now 150 points or so, you basically will take six of them for lack of anything else to spend the points on. So 12 special weapons = $120, 48 regular bolter sisters = $288... you're looking at over 400 clams just for ~700 points of troops. That's WFB-level of cost/point ratios!

Revarien wrote:Honestly, it all comes down to point costs... yeah, at current points, they'd be terrible... absolutely horrendous.

Half all their points and they'd be horribly broken (cept for repentia, who would be about 'right')...

People already whine, piss and moan when I break out the Sisters, because they "can't be killed reliably"... or whatever... but now they'll be dieing in even broader swaths. If the points are adjusted accordingly though, then it's won't be too horrible.

What you've got here is true, except that shattering faith and cheapening the units is just a shift of the Sister from being very unique, to being Guard with power armor and bolters. IMO thats a very bad thing.

My concerns aren't even about if they'll competitive or not (I enthusiastically play Tau already ). I'm just worried the army is going to lose its soul/essence (for lack of a better word). Much more numerous Sisters may not be horrible, but being bland/boring or 'ordinary' is worse than being horrible.


I do think all the comments on BoLS are kinda funny, everyone thinks the rumored rules are making Sisters super awesome. 9 Penitent Engines? awsome!!!!.... uh excuse me, we can already do that, and no one is going to shell out over $300 for 9 Penitents (except the guy that already has 9). Rending Heavy Bolter Teams!!!! they compete with our only ranged anti-tank, and we already had a similar setup. You can tell which players actually use Sisters.

Creeping Dementia wrote:
I do think all the comments on BoLS are kinda funny, everyone thinks the rumored rules are making Sisters super awesome. 9 Penitent Engines? awsome!!!!.... uh excuse me, we can already do that, and no one is going to shell out over $300 for 9 Penitents (except the guy that already has 9). Rending Heavy Bolter Teams!!!! they compete with our only ranged anti-tank, and we already had a similar setup. You can tell which players actually use Sisters.

Seriously it's really weird reading people excited for stuff we already have.

Creeping Dementia wrote:

Revarien wrote:Honestly, it all comes down to point costs... yeah, at current points, they'd be terrible... absolutely horrendous.

Half all their points and they'd be horribly broken (cept for repentia, who would be about 'right')...

People already whine, piss and moan when I break out the Sisters, because they "can't be killed reliably"... or whatever... but now they'll be dieing in even broader swaths. If the points are adjusted accordingly though, then it's won't be too horrible.

What you've got here is true, except that shattering faith and cheapening the units is just a shift of the Sister from being very unique, to being Guard with power armor and bolters. IMO thats a very bad thing.

My concerns aren't even about if they'll competitive or not (I enthusiastically play Tau already ). I'm just worried the army is going to lose its soul/essence (for lack of a better word). Much more numerous Sisters may not be horrible, but being bland/boring or 'ordinary' is worse than being horrible.


I do think all the comments on BoLS are kinda funny, everyone thinks the rumored rules are making Sisters super awesome. 9 Penitent Engines? awsome!!!!.... uh excuse me, we can already do that, and no one is going to shell out over $300 for 9 Penitents (except the guy that already has 9). Rending Heavy Bolter Teams!!!! they compete with our only ranged anti-tank, and we already had a similar setup. You can tell which players actually use Sisters.

Well, yeah... I love how the current system works, but while I even printed out a copy for whomever I play against, it has become a massive joke of "is it over or under?... ah, well that depends on how many sisters he has! lolz" etc... (Since I only test if it is most likely a sure thing, it tends to be in my favor every time). So, IMO, I think the faith thing could certainly be reworked for the better: now is this system proposed better? Doubt it, but it does seem like the mechanic is better... just not the options.

Also, yeah, I have 3 penitent engines... and OW that hurt to buy the 3 (and was probably one of the worst pinning/modeling experiences I've ever had with models...). I can't even imagine putting together, let alone spending all that money, on 6 more.

But yeah, last thing I want them to be is guard in power armor... *sigh*

Revarien wrote:
But yeah, last thing I want them to be is guard in power armor... *sigh*

I think that regardless of how faith points work out, they won't end up being "Guard in power armor" any more than they're "Eldar in power armor" - in other words, they're still going to have their own niche.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Based on...?
Because of...?
Due to...?

Just because you and pretre are not willing to read my posts doesn't mean I have no reason.

Slinky wrote:

kestral wrote:I REALLY don't like the faith rumors. The old style faith was a powerful, unique tactical tool that you could use to turn the tide of battle a critical point. Unreliable unit upgrades add nothing to the fun of playing the army.

It was hardly reliable before, really, owing to the unit size mechanic.

Which was reliable anyway? You use divine guidance when you have a lot of bolters to shoot, hand of the emperor when you have lots of sisters to make up for hote being I1, and spirit of the martyr when your already damaged squad needs to hold out for just a few phases longer.

Intelligent and logical application led to them being quite reliable.

Melissia wrote:

Omegus wrote:Roll 4+ and he gets back up with a 1" reposition.

Ah, so it IS a nerf of Celestine's abilities.

So basically aside from Repentia, Sisters just got a bunch of nerfs based off of that rumor. And, MAYBE celestians... whom will still be shooty units with assault stats. Yay.

So this is what you said before your flaming black hole comment...

I think both H.B.M.C and I read it, we just still are confused how 1 + 1 = 24 for you...

I like the current acts of faith very characterful and good as well. Have to see how the new system works before I pass judgment but the rumors don't sound to good.

Have to dig up the Sisters fandex my friends and I made and see what we did with stuff. From memory.

Retributers should be moved to elites and given ability to take missle launchers. (this fixes the competes with exorcists and gives sisters the more anti tank they need)

Pertinent Engines should be moved to fast attack given fleet. Now that dreadknights and thunder wolves are out would consider making Pertinent Engines into a monsterous creature.

Repentia need to be able to take a transport. You don't just run across the battlefield with a chainsword expecting to make it to your opponent when they have lots of bolters unless there are 100s of you.

Rhinos should be adjusted to Space Marine cost and Immolator given a 15 point discount.

They should introduce Repressors and Razorbacks as well.

@Melissia
I see where your concern about the codex being not very good with the current rumors but I will wait and see.

Avariel wrote:Retributers should be moved to elites and given ability to take missle launchers. (this fixes the competes with exorcists and gives sisters the more anti tank they need)

Elites would be perfect for Retributors. No Missile Launchers though, please. Doesn't really fit. Rending Heavy Bolters are actually pretty decent for light transport work and this would be the perfect spot to put them.

Pertinent Engines should be moved to fast attack given fleet. Now that dreadknights and thunder wolves are out would consider making Pertinent Engines into a monsterous creature.

Definitely.

Repentia need to be able to take a transport. You don't just run across the battlefield with a chainsword expecting to make it to your opponent when they have lots of bolters unless there are 100s of you.

Ugh, no. Doesn't fit them. Just make them very cheap and I think you'll be fine. With fleet and the run forward when they miss morale, they're already doing okay. Making them super cheap and they'd be fine.

Rhinos should be adjusted to Space Marine cost and Immolator given a 15 point discount.

Sure.

They should introduce Repressors and Razorbacks as well.

I think they could solve it by just adding Heavy Flamer as an option for Rhinos (which is really all a repressor is) and making Immolators transport more girls. Please, no razorbacks or if we get them, give them something different. No Las/Plas, TL Las, etc. Maybe Heavy Flamer, Twin Linked MM and Hurricane Bolter armed Immo/Razorbacks?

Anyways, we're just wishlisting now.

A repressor is more than just a heavy flamer on top of a rhino, it has an expanded crew compartment that grants it a bunch of fire points. It's like a hybrid between a chimera and a rhino.

Omegus wrote:A repressor is more than just a heavy flamer on top of a rhino, it has an expanded crew compartment that grants it a bunch of fire points. It's like a hybrid between a chimera and a rhino.

Don't they have dozer blades as well? Or a Siege Shield or something?

Avariel wrote:Retributers should be moved to elites and given ability to take missle launchers. (this fixes the competes with exorcists and gives sisters the more anti tank they need)

Pertinent Engines should be moved to fast attack given fleet. Now that dreadknights and thunder wolves are out would consider making Pertinent Engines into a monsterous creature.

So... the only uni that would exist in the HS slot would be the exorcist?

The ONLY way this would work is if they aded five or six brand new HS choices... and no, immolators don't count, they're just overpriced razorbacks as it is


Pretre: Ah, selective quoting, such an old, tried, and true trolling method.

Melissia wrote:Pretre: Ah, selective quoting, such an old, tried, and true trolling method.

Sorry, I only quoted the entirety of one of your posts. I probably should have multi-quoted everything you wrote about sisters for the last year. My bad.

Honestly... I love the faith mechanic of sisters the way it is. It takes skill to use and experience to be good with. I've given the new GKs a run for their money using faith right...

Just Dave wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Sanctuary 101 a massacre (as far as we know), rather than a battle?

My vague recollection is that it was actually the very first battle report involving the (at the time extremely new, with only the most basic elements of the army statted out in WD) Necrons.

Melissia wrote:

Avariel wrote:Retributers should be moved to elites and given ability to take missle launchers. (this fixes the competes with exorcists and gives sisters the more anti tank they need)

Pertinent Engines should be moved to fast attack given fleet. Now that dreadknights and thunder wolves are out would consider making Pertinent Engines into a monsterous creature.

So... the only unit that would exist in the HS slot would be the exorcist?

The ONLY way this would work is if they aded five or six brand new HS choices... and no, immolators don't count, they're just overpriced razorbacks as it is

Agreed... SoB need more units. Competing units are perfectly acceptable as long as their are enough worth while units in every FOC, and given the current codex trends that seems likely.

Let's all freak out and judge Sisters based on incomplete rumors without points costs!!!!

Come on people. As of right now Sisters are not competitive, not interesting or flavorful, and not fun to play. Even the die hard Sisters players have to admit the codex is bad. Here's a nice link that breaks down the victories in 2010-2011 for the Indy GT circuit per army:

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2011/06/06/indy-gt-circuit-2010-2011-season-in-review/

No wins by Sisters?!?! It's almost like the codex is bad. The only lists that anyone ever sees are all the same mono build. Marines light with faith points. It's a horrible codex. To those who are complaining; how are you getting worse? Because really, if you make Sisters competitive, fun, or interesting it's already an upgrade.

Slinky wrote:

kestral wrote:I REALLY don't like the faith rumors. The old style faith was a powerful, unique tactical tool that you could use to turn the tide of battle a critical point. Unreliable unit upgrades add nothing to the fun of playing the army.

It was hardly reliable before, really, owing to the unit size mechanic.

Then you didnt know what you were doing with the acts of faith. Once you get down what is what, they were VERY reiable to set off. You could tailor the sqaud to how and when, once you knew what sizes were needed.

I never had an issue setting off any of them. Only if you rolled rather bad did it become an issue.

JGrand wrote:As of right now Sisters are not competitive, not interesting or flavorful, and not fun to play. Even the die hard Sisters players have to admit the codex is bad. Here's a nice link that breaks down the victories in 2010-2011 for the Indy GT circuit per army:

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2011/06/06/indy-gt-circuit-2010-2011-season-in-review/

No wins by Sisters?!?! It's almost like the codex is bad. The only lists that anyone ever sees are all the same mono build. Marines light with faith points. It's a horrible codex. To those who are complaining; how are you getting worse? Because really, if you make Sisters competitive, fun, or interesting it's already an upgrade.

Your version of fun and mine must not align. I also find them to be flavorful and have the swiss army knife- that is faith... used properly it can win games. Competitive-wise: I knocked out the favored Mech-IG frontrunner at a local tourny due to my troop swarm SoB list, with a crazed Callidus assassin running around his back-field the entire game. Sure: First turn I lost half my army. It sucked. No question about it. I lost 40 of my 78 model list. But all 35 (my 3 excorsists got stuck not coming in till turn 4 due to his unit adding -1 to reserve rolls) of my remaining sisters became invul on subsequent turns and rocked the hell outa him. It ended in a draw because he couldn't table me and was slow playing with his remaining 2 models, when time was called... They just happened to be on an objective and I'd just hopped 2 seraphim to contest.

As far as your tourny link there... is that how many players there were or wins each army had? It really doesn't specify...

JGrand wrote:Let's all freak out and judge Sisters based on incomplete rumors without points costs!!!!

There. I quoted the only good part of what Jgrand said.

So far, the rumours are absolutely incomplete. So I can't make an accurate assessment of what's going to happen to my current 1600pt army list.

However, if what the rumours say are true:
-I'll lose my Inquisition and assassins, meaning I'll completely lack any kind long range firepower that isn't my single lone exorcist. This will likely force me to buy more exorcists, but they're very expensive (Like, $85 per). I like the organ style ones too, so I'm not going to get the forgeworld crap. I lose my Vindicator just as he starts becoming remotely capable, which means I can no longer one shot vehicles from a distance safely anymore. I can't take out HQs from units, I can't pinpoint attack powerfists/thunder hammers/etc. I also lose my only effective blast markers through my Inq henchmen's Gun servitors. The new rules may force me to use Retributors(or whatever they're called), the sister HW squad, if they're the only ones to get Divine guidance. *sigh*
-I'll lose utility in my sister units from the "streamlining"/weakening of the faith system.
-I'll probably lose my Arco-flags unless they're miraculously left in the codex(and if a second miracle makes it so they're exponentially better than the depressingly retconned GK arco-flags), which means I no longer have an effective power weapon wielding assault squad(that also was hilariously fun to play, and whom my friends dreaded whenever they were fielded) unless the Repentia can fill that hole, and even then, it's a stretch.
-No more Anti-Psyker attacks, as I've lost my assassin and my Inquisitor. No psychic abilities at all.
-No more Old Man on the Chair. Not that he was any good to begin with.
-A seemingly nerfed Celestine. Not that she was any good to begin with.
-A seemingly ultra-nerfed Canoness, which is depressing because she was the most effective HQ choice bar none for me.
-A hopelessly useless Priest that's apparently close to unchanged. I hope his point value drops to 20, because he was so terrible.
-Repentia that's got FNP, a 6+ invuln, and are apparently cheaper. Welp, they're still going to die in droves, but at least they won't get massacred in blast templates as badly anymore.
-Seraphim lose twin-linked in exchange for two full shots. Cool, I guess. Not a big improvement, but it's welcome nonetheless. I didn't have good luck with the unit so I tend to ignore it for the most part. Maybe this codex will have me dusting them off again.
-Possibly Repressors? Would be cool. Expensive, but cool.
-No real changes to Penitent Engines, aside from potentially unit size IIRC. At my local shop, they're about as expensive as an exorcist, so I do't own any, considering they're useless in the current codex. zthey need serious work in order to be remotely effective.
-No more arbites....not that I used them, but they were always kind of funny.
-No ally support, so no IG tanks. So I hope the sisters get something to balance this out.

What I'd like to see:
-More utility in the army, or at least more specialties. I'd want to see new units replace each one we lost with an equivalent(or close to it).
-Expansion on fluff of current units
-Worthwhile HQs. The previous ones had good fluff, but were useless on the field, so maybe we can go 2 for 2 this time? Good fluff and worthwhile rules?
-Interesting new wargear options to provide new, fun ways of playing a unit or IC.
-Lower point costs across the board, generally.
-A maintained high risk/reward style of play that the army is known for. The army requires attention to detail, and if you play well, you're usually rewarded. If you make mistakes, you pay a high price. I liked that balance, felt right with the WitchHunters' polarized views on life.
-Something that sets it apart from marine armies. Without the Inquisition, there's honestly none of that now. Aside from the sex of the troops.
-Faith still be useful. It was reliable, fun and interesting. Once I learned how to pick my spots, I was hitting around 90% of faith tests, still taking the odd risk here and there.
--Anti-Psyker stuff

I hope it's goof. I'm not sure it will be though. August will be interesting, it'll either be a great birthday gift, or the worst

Is there any news on who is actually writing the SoB WD Codex so far? Since Ward is too busy writing his 'necroblasters' and 'necrofists' and 'nemesis doomnecrobloodstrikefists' I think we can safely say he is not behind the streamlining.

Ehsteve wrote:Is there any news on who is actually writing the SoB WD Codex so far? Since Ward is too busy writing his 'necroblasters' and 'necrofists' and 'nemesis doomnecrobloodstrikefists' I think we can safely say he is not behind the streamlining.

The same BoK post that said the Sisters would be getting a WD codex back in May also said Cruddace was writing it.

I'd like to see faith to become a larger part of the army, not a smaller one. i think it'd be awesome to see faith be more than a bonus here, bonus there when you need it, but more of a pervasive, all encompassing part of the army.

I think that fluff wise the sisters have so much potential that GW leaves untapped

Ugh, Cruddace is in many ways worse than Ward.

The sad thing is that all I really want are cost updates and a reworking of the terrible, cityfight units (as I call them, as they are only good in cityfight). Arcos, Priests, Repentia, Pentient Engines, and Retributors.

At least Ward writes balanced rules, now we're either gonna get poor fluff and ridiculously overpowered and undercosted sisters or poor fluff and very nerfed sisters. Woop de ******* do.

Scarey Nerd wrote:At least Ward writes balanced rules, now we're either gonna get poor fluff and ridiculoudly overpowered and undercosted sisters or poor fluff anf very nerfed sisters. Woop de ******* do.

im guessing the latter. though the former would be great, but we all know what gw does to hopes and dreams.

Eumerin wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Sanctuary 101 a massacre (as far as we know), rather than a battle?

My vague recollection is that it was actually the very first battle report involving the (at the time extremely new, with only the most basic elements of the army statted out in WD) Necrons.

Indeed.

This was later fleshed out/refered to in the fluff as being somewhat of a massacre.

We'll probably get some more details about this in December -- http://www.blacklibrary.com/coming-soon/december-2011/Hammer-and-Anvil.html

JGrand wrote:Let's all freak out and judge Sisters based on incomplete rumors without points costs!!!!

I bet you nine internets that my suspicions will be proven to be completely and utterly true come release date.

Scarey Nerd wrote:At least Ward writes balanced rules

I nearly wrote off a work computer's keyboard with water at this. Compare one Codex to another and tell me this. Compare the spontaneously cheaper Vanguard from one to the other.

Ward writes Codex creep.

And fluff?

Don't even get me started on that (let's ally with Necrons yay!)

reds8n wrote:

Eumerin wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Sanctuary 101 a massacre (as far as we know), rather than a battle?

My vague recollection is that it was actually the very first battle report involving the (at the time extremely new, with only the most basic elements of the army statted out in WD) Necrons.

Indeed.

This was later fleshed out/refered to in the fluff as being somewhat of a massacre.

We'll probably get some more details about this in December -- http://www.blacklibrary.com/coming-soon/december-2011/Hammer-and-Anvil.html

So my overall point stands in that this wouldn't be the best starter box? Unless the Sisters models were horribly mutilated or whatnot (by which I don't mean finecast )...

Also, I think that's a pretty good concept of what the SoB could/should look like on that Red. IMHO anyway, I know it's very much a preference thing with the SoB's appearance...

DarkStarSabre wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:At least Ward writes balanced rules

I nearly wrote off a work computer's keyboard with water at this.

OK, when I say balanced, I should have said "Mostly balanced". They're not exactly JOTWW standard, are they?

Apart from JOTWW the Wolves seem well refined.

Mind you, perhaps I'm just cynical. I mean, my Chaos were a hash job done by Gav Thorpe before he left the company which managed to genericise them - Ward then produced the SM codex which had all the options they lost....

And then I got Cruddace butchering my 'nids, turning it into obvious SELL NEW MODELS codex.

Sigh.

Hopefully when it comes out alot of the questions will be answered (fingers crossed positively!)

Melissia wrote:

JGrand wrote:Let's all freak out and judge Sisters based on incomplete rumors without points costs!!!!

I bet you nine internets that my suspicions will be proven to be completely and utterly true come release date.

So you are betting that the WD Codex will be a 'fiery black hole'? Seems like a poor choice for a bet.

No, only that it would suck as much.

Rumors I heard about new faith implementation has suck written all over it. faith works on a 5+ and only one act per unit? that sounds bad. I like the current version of faith how if you build your list around it and use it wisely it can largely impact the game.

Latest BOK rumors about the cannoness sucking has me worried. I like the current jump cannoness with the ability to get the 2+ invulnerable along with an eviserator or blessed weapon about the only thing in the codex good at cc.

I'll wait and see if it sucks I still got guard and space pups.

edit: wrong thread

My Canoness death squad is fairly infamous for the amount of punishment it can take (due to invul saves and wound allocation) along with having some bite to it. If she is nerfed as much as the rumors say (and considering that they think keeping other models more or less the same is a fantastic improvement that would be a lot) I will be pretty unhappy.

People said that this army will have a nitch outside of being a guard ripoff but I'm not sure what that is when they can spam meltas and flamers almost easily and a 3+ armor save only protects so much when everyone is T3. I'm with Melissa in that I think this isn't going to be very good and any optimism is unfounded. However if it's just the hold over I can live with it. The problem being with the new White Dwarf super blackout on all information until a day before policy we probably won't know what the intention behind this is.

Completely off topic but oddly in support of Melissa's theory.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13783877

Does this count as a black hole on fire?

DarkStarSabre wrote:Completely off topic but oddly in support of Melissa's theory.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13783877

Does this count as a black hole on fire?

So much for GW keeping things under wraps, pretty bad when BBC scoops them.

And my apologies to Melissia, apparently you were right. Here's a leaked pic of the new Sisters Codex from WD:



PANIC!!!!!!



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Ixquic wrote: any optimism is unfounded.

As well as any pessimism. After all, we don't have any real information.

The best thing about being a pessimist is that you are constantly either being proven right or pleasantly surprised.

Omegus wrote:The best thing about being a pessimist is that you are constantly either being proven right or pleasantly surprised.

isnt that an optimistic view of pessimism?

DarkStarSabre wrote:Completely off topic but oddly in support of Melissa's theory.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13783877

Does this count as a black hole on fire?

The problem is that we haven't heard anything good yet. Everything if how stuff has been nerfed (Cannoness), limited, altered for 'simplicity' (Acts), or not improved enough (Repentia).

The Grog wrote:The problem is that we haven't heard anything good yet. Everything if how stuff has been nerfed (Cannoness), limited, altered for 'simplicity' (Acts), or not improved enough (Repentia).

Good thing all those nerfs are just rumors and we don't have any hard facts then, right?

Points costs reductions are increases in power, flat out. The fact that Seraphim are cheaper and better now is not a nerf. The fact that standard sisters may be able to take immolators is not a nerf. The fact that Celestian gets thrawn's version of WBB and not her old one is not a nerf.

You can twist rumors however you want so that you can PANIC, but that doesn't make them anything but rumors. Calm down a bit and just wait for the WDdex before you declare it the end of the world.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, confessors getting retinues and reroll hit and wound. That's not a nerf.

Repentia with FNP, Fleet and a 4+/6+ that can strike after they die. Not a nerf.

Celestians with Combi-weapons in addition to normal weapons. Not a nerf.

Exorcist with Longer Range.

Retributors with Rending instead of just AP1.
etc so on.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, d6 Faith per unit in a pool with an unknown mechanic to use it (possibly WHFB style power dice) is a change, not a nerf. For all you know, there may be one special faith power per unit and one default one for all units. (Like how GK get special Psychic Powers but all units can use NFW.)

We just don't know.

The real problem is that we won't have any real way to gauge the strength of the codex until a full year has gone by. Assuming that 6th edition is just around the corner as everyone suspects, we have no idea what GW is going to do and how they're going to change things. For instance, look at Eldar and 'Run' for an example of how something intrinsic to an army can get screwed over by out of the blue changes in a new edition.

Eumerin wrote:The real problem is that we won't have any real way to gauge the strength of the codex until a full year has gone by. Assuming that 6th edition is just around the corner as everyone suspects, we have no idea what GW is going to do and how they're going to change things. For instance, look at Eldar and 'Run' for an example of how something intrinsic to an army can get screwed over by out of the blue changes in a new edition.

Not sure I get you here. By that line of reasoning, we should never gauge the strength of a previous codex until it is replaced... Afterall, how do we know how strong a codex is until it is used in every edition that it will be legal in. Under this premise, was the Necron Codex strong? It was pretty decent in 3rd and 4th and pretty poor in 5th, do we average that to 'okay'?

And I'm not sure Fleet vs Run is really Eldar's weakness at this point.

pretre wrote:Retributors with Rending instead of just AP1.

Frankly, theyr'e still gonna suck, and this (if the rumor is true) comes at the price of removing AP1 from every other squad, dramatically reducing the Sisters' ability to deal damage. They'd no better than Marines at damage-dealing in the 0-18" range now, despite being less effective everywhere else. Lower price doesn't help much if you have nothing else really there to buy with it in the first place.

They might suck, but you can field 9 penitent engines. So that's better. Look on the bright side for a change

Redbeard wrote:They might suck, but you can field 9 penitent engines. So that's better. Look on the bright side for a change

lol...



Sisters can already take nine p.engines... most people don't because they're far, far too fragile for their price.

So, what, are Penitent Engines even worse than Killakans or something? I mean, 9 walkers is generally a whole lot...

Anvildude wrote:So, what, are Penitent Engines even worse than Killakans or something? I mean, 9 walkers is generally a whole lot...

AV11, open topped, no ranged weapons, and you can't control where they go. Pretty sure they're more expensive too, but I haven't memorized the Ork dex yet, so I may be wrong.

Edit* Has anyone heard anything about the Book of St. Lucius yet? Seems to be a major factor of the current army that hasn't been adressed yet.

They were much worse than kans before.

Kan pros: AV 11, closed-top, backed-up with a mek w/ forcefield.

Kan cons: low WS/I.

Engine Pros: WS4, moved +d6 inches/move, plus a run, ignore shaken/stunned.
Engine Cons: Cost twice as much, open topped, Only I3 (other walkers beat them), open topped, cost twice as much.


But if you dropped them to kan prices, they'd be decent. With an extra d6 move and then running, they can be in your opponent's face much faster than they usually expect.