ShumaGorath wrote:Cool is only cool so long as it's cool. The moment you see someone across the field flanking 10 paladins in a vendetta or a blood angels army composed entirely out of grey hunters and sanguinary priests you'll start to realize why cool sometimes isn't.
* Don't you think there will be a limit of how many models you can add to your list from other armies? I was thinking you would likely get 1 unit.
* I doubt you will be able to stick 10 paladins in a vendetta. Unless the vendetta's transport capacity is 20, but I don't think it was that high.
* You know that FNP is rumored to be getting nurfed, right?
* You know that wound allocation magic is getting rumored to be getting nurfed, right?
It's done, I have no more interest in arguing with someone who lacks a basic understanding of English terms.
On this we can agree.
Everyone agrees with it. You don't understand the terminology and he does.
* Don't you think there will be a limit of how many models you can add to your list from other armies? I was thinking you would likely get 1 unit.
It's great that when I'm only reading the rumours as they've been presented to us and then stating that not only are the rumoured rules poor and most likely house ruled to oblivion I get angry replies claiming I'm making unfounded assumptions. Then, few minutes later the apologist crowd starts making up rules of their own that are based on no shred of information given to us just so that the rumoured rules would make any sense whatsoever which they don't. Allies in any form don't belong in a 40K game that tries to be even slightly balanced. They never have and they never will. If you don't think balance matters why have points costs or in fact rules at all? Just play with whatever you have. I'm sure it's good for GW's business. Whoever buys the most models wins, unless it's 'not Space Marines'.
The randomness I'm ok with - it affects both players so it's something that both players have to adapt to. The allies thing is a bit worrying though. I just hate the idea of playing 'two' armies. If I'm facing Space Wolves, I want to face them, not Space Wolves and some other unit that papers over whatever weakness they have in their army (actually, maybe that's a bad example lol).
Also, I don't play certain armies because I just hate the way they look so it's a little annoying to think that I could supplement my forces with something from that army. But I don't play that army because I've chosen not to.
These terrain pieces are just a shameful way of trying to sell more kits - I would have preferred GW to just errata some units from each codex to say such and such a weapon is capable of anti air, then I wouldn't have to spend precious points to plonk a building down somewhere. Although I do remember reading a rumour somewhere that GW are going to do race specific terrain (I think?) so if they made some really nice Eldar stuff, I would be interested in that. Not to take as part of the FOC but just to have some smart looking terrain on the table. Also, I won't be lugging any terrain to my local gaming club on top of an already awkward to transport product.
But, other than the allies thing and the terrain thing, I have no major problem with most of these rumours.
Space Wolves with actual Russes incorporated in their list again
Why? Leman Russes are not competitive now and they look to be even less competitive in 6th. Vendettas however are very competitive and look to be even more competitive in 6th. Same applies to Hydras. Space Wolves will definately mix some of those in. The restriction that they have to take a Company Command Squad in a Chimera with 4 Meltaguns and a Vet Squad in a Chimera with 3 Meltaguns in order to get access to 3 Vendettas and a Hydra squadron or two is laughable.
Too many people are simply arguing to argue (someone is wrong on the internets...)
here are some options for everyone.
1) continue to play the game and enjoy yourself
2) continue to play the game and be miserable
3) do not continue to play the game.
some of you are overreacting to proposed rumors, there should be a different thread that is titled (HOW NEW 6TH EDITION RULES WILL RUIN 40K) or something, not RISK is RISK and your not a tournament player so you cant play for fun, or im right and you are stupid face.
so either keep playing or not, but cut the woe is me crap and keep the thread back on possible rumors
Space Wolves with actual Russes incorporated in their list again
Why? Leman Russes are not competitive now and they look to be even less competitive in 6th.
Not everyone builds competitive lists. And I'm willing to bet there are still a few Russes out there painted in Space Wolves colours from the last codex.
Space Wolves with actual Russes incorporated in their list again
Why?
Because the tank is named after their freaking primarch, dohh!!
You can bet your left nut that there will be very specific restrictions on what you can incorporate into your army. Like Guard gets to add only 1 heavy support choice into a Marine army, or only 1 fast attack.
They are not going to let you stuff one list with all the best options of another. I am not sure why (or even if truly) you think that. It is not going to happen.
Random assault range is strange but seems like a pretty win-win situation on average.
Looks like it's staying Move-Shoot-Assault so that you move.. then if you're 7" away you just try to charge, whats the harm? It's not like fantasy where you give up your normal movement. I imagine people will just be attempting to charge anything thats 12" or less away because there is no detriment
Granted, you can be screwed by rolling double 1s but I imagine there will be abilities to enhance this.
Space Wolves with actual Russes incorporated in their list again
Why? Leman Russes are not competitive now and they look to be even less competitive in 6th. Vendettas however are very competitive and look to be even more competitive in 6th. Same applies to Hydras. Space Wolves will definately mix some of those in. The restriction that they have to take a Company Command Squad in a Chimera with 4 Meltaguns and a Vet Squad in a Chimera with 3 Meltaguns in order to get access to 3 Vendettas and a Hydra squadron or two is laughable.
Becouse until a couple a years ago we could.
Some of us of play units that are just fun and don't care how effective they are. Now I would break my old Space Wolf Leman Russ out of Storage and use now and again. In turnement play, thats another story...
They are not going to let you stuff one list with all the best options of another. I am not sure why (or even if truly) you think that. It is not going to happen.
I'll just take your word for it then because the rumours point to the exact opposite direction. Let's come back to this discussion in a week or two.
You know that FNP is rumored to be getting nurfed, right?
Making the GK paladin apotechary the single most overpriced piece of garbage in the whole game.
He was already overpriced with a 4+ FnP and now with FnP getting nerfed to 5+ this mini wills sadly never in a thousand years be taken in games.
They are not going to let you stuff one list with all the best options of another. I am not sure why (or even if truly) you think that. It is not going to happen.
I'll just take your word for it then because the rumours point to the exact opposite direction. Let's come back to this discussion in a week or two.
The rumors don't really point to anything, from what I've read. Just: You can have allies, you may or may not need 1 HQ and 2 Troops to do so...
I'm not even sure if that means 1 HQ and 2 troops from each codex, you can only take 1 HQ and 2 troops from a codex, nor what the Ally/Enemy matrix will look like.
I agree that we should ALL come back to this discussion in a few weeks with more information on this and other subjects brought up in this thread.
TBD wrote:
You can bet your left nut that there will be very specific restrictions on what you can incorporate into your army. Like Guard gets to add only 1 heavy support choice into a Marine army, or only 1 fast attack.
They are not going to let you stuff one list with all the best options of another. I am not sure why (or even if truly) you think that. It is not going to happen.
I do expect some sort of restriction (like max 1 allied unit / FOC), but I would suspect additional constraints along the lines of:
- Models can't embark in an ally's vehicle
- Characters can't join allied units
- Special rules don't get conferred onto allied units
This way it still "feels" like two different armies, rather than one.
It will be real interesting to see who gets to take a mob of 30 boys and a big mek wiff kustom force field in their army list? chaos for sure. They always use the orks. maybe the necrons? that would make dooms day arks silly good! This wish wont come true as none of the necron fluf says much about allying with orks. Eldar have used orks before as a distraction in video games. I just think that the fkk is such a that every faction is going to want one. will allied hq's get to lead squads of the main armies units or ride in there tanks? So many questions so few answers!!! Bring on the 30th!
TBD wrote:
You can bet your left nut that there will be very specific restrictions on what you can incorporate into your army. Like Guard gets to add only 1 heavy support choice into a Marine army, or only 1 fast attack.
They are not going to let you stuff one list with all the best options of another. I am not sure why (or even if truly) you think that. It is not going to happen.
I do expect some sort of restriction (like max 1 allied unit / FOC), but I would suspect additional constraints along the lines of:
- Models can't embark in an ally's vehicle
- Characters can't join allied units
- Special rules don't get conferred onto allied units
This way it still "feels" like two different armies, rather than one.
If that imaginary list of restrictions was true, would you consider allies allright? I'm just curious.
Space Wolves or Grey Knights that can't join in the Meltagun Company Command Squad in a Chimera or the MeltaVet Squad in the Chimera, and only get one Vendetta and one Hydra Squadron, and don't confer acute senses and counter-assault and ATSKNF on the IG infantry and tanks? Oh these restrictions are so painful I'm not even sure if allying with IG is even worth it anymore!
Kirasu wrote:Random assault range is strange but seems like a pretty win-win situation on average.
Looks like it's staying Move-Shoot-Assault so that you move.. then if you're 7" away you just try to charge, whats the harm? It's not like fantasy where you give up your normal movement. I imagine people will just be attempting to charge anything thats 12" or less away because there is no detriment
Granted, you can be screwed by rolling double 1s but I imagine there will be abilities to enhance this.
First of all, we can't tell how it's going to be before they realease it but based on how it looks it totally screws me as an Eldar player, right now me winning or loosing a game depends quite literally on me pulling of a perfectly timed multiassault or a shoot/assault combination in the perfect moment, failing an assault might just make me loose the game. It's for granted that I shouldn't be depending on an assault to win the game but it's just the way it's with Eldar right now, might change might not, we'll see.
Praxiss wrote:The terrain part is something that will almost definately be ignored in my gaming group. We struggle to afford army models, let alone expensive building and terrain.
Sigvatr wrote:We already agreed on banning both the terrain and allies rules.
For pretty damn obvious reasons.
Yeah, you both play shooty armies that suck in close combat
True. But the armies that i play against tend towards the CC end of the spectrum (SW, BA, Nids).
To be honest it kind of depends. I am lucky enough to live in Derby so when i go for a game i tend to go to warhammer world. Presumably they will fire out a load of useable terrain on the tables.
*shrug* I dunno, I don't really expect a lot of extra restrictions on allies, to be honest with you. I think it's a nod toward narrative gaming (and model sales) and not balanced gameplay. It'd be somewhat self-defeating if they added too many caveats.
I'm okay with allies rules. They'll provide a structure for using allies in friendly games, and will likely be banned from every major tournament for obvious reasons. IMO, we'll be good either way. It's the movement and missions rules that will make or break the edition, IMO.
Any alliance rules will be inherently unfair if they are based in "fluff" as it will favour imperial and chaos armies and most likely leave Tyranids in the cold. There is no need for these rules to be part of the "standard game" as players could already (and did already) house rule whatever alliances they wanted for their own games.
I really enjoy a good, hard fought, competitive game of 40K. I hate to see one or other player screwed over by book imbalances or for example, crappy reserve rolls. I gain far less enjoyment from a hard fought loss than a win based on poor balance.
For that reason, I'm not seeing much point in the rumoured changes. If I want "fluff" and so on, I can play a roleplaying game with far less expense and set up time, with my roleplaying buddies. Wargaming, for me, is a competition, not a co-operative storytelling exercise, much as story is part of a good game.
rothrich wrote:This wish wont come true as none of the necron fluf says much about allying with orks
The way the Necron background is written in the current codex you can make your Overlord as good or evil as you want, with whatever agenda you come up with, and the rest of the army just follows the leader. There is (almost) no set doctrine. That is what makes this codex/background so great & unique Imo.
With the probable exception of their ancient enemies you can come up with whatever storyline reason you like to have them be allies to most other armies.
It's rather the other way around. With who & why would Orks play nice along with someone else? Mercenaries? Promise of power?
RegulusBlack wrote:Too many people are simply arguing to argue (someone is wrong on the internets...)
here are some options for everyone.
1) continue to play the game and enjoy yourself
2) continue to play the game and be miserable
3) do not continue to play the game.
some of you are overreacting to proposed rumors, there should be a different thread that is titled (HOW NEW 6TH EDITION RULES WILL RUIN 40K) or something, not RISK is RISK and your not a tournament player so you cant play for fun, or im right and you are stupid face.
so either keep playing or not, but cut the woe is me crap and keep the thread back on possible rumors
I've got some characters to model...
some more options:
4) Enjoy theorizing about possible rumours, I'm sorry but I just can't help it.
5) Chill down and let people discuss things that might not even happen have their fun
rothrich wrote:This wish wont come true as none of the necron fluf says much about allying with orks
The way the Necron background is written in the current codex you can make your Overlord as good or evil as you want, with whatever agenda you come up with, and the rest of the army just follows the leader. There is (almost) no set doctrine. That is what makes this codex/background so great & unique Imo.
With the probable exception of their ancient enemies you can come up with whatever storyline reason you like to have them be allies to most other armies.
It's rather the other way around. With who & why would Orks play nice along with someone else? Mercenaries? Promise of power?
elrabin wrote:I do expect some sort of restriction (like max 1 allied unit / FOC), but I would suspect additional constraints along the lines of:
- Models can't embark in an ally's vehicle
- Characters can't join allied units
- Special rules don't get conferred onto allied units
This way it still "feels" like two different armies, rather than one.
I also wouldn't be at all surprised if the rumoured Allies are simply a slight re-working of the current Multiple Detachment rules, to allow you to field armies from different codexes with your opponent's permission.
You have the ability to buy different terrain (it even has its own
slot on the new FOC), e.g, you can buy a Bastion with a Quad-Gun
(which has the aforementioned Skyfire USR). There seem to be quite a
few options for what terrain you can buy...
Hey, I'm probably 10 pages and two days too late...
But to be honest, people seem to be moaning for the sake of it I've lived through every edition of 40k and every time I hear the same old story and every time I write a reply like this If your not happy with the new 40k then switch to FOW it makes sense.
I really hope this allies rumour is true. The thing I enjoy the most about 40k is customising my army. Now with the concept of allies I can build models that look like they're part of their allied army.
I'm hoping that the rule allows you to create your own reason for an alliance. Chaos infected Tyranids, Necrons wearing Tau armour, Orks forcing survivors of previous battles to fight for them and so many other great ideas that would allow for so much customising fun.
Do_I_Not_Like_That: Your post is totally cool, from your perspective. But look at someone who wants a portable wargame. If you don't have a stable gaming group, you're going to rely on the "core rules." And as soon as those rules allow something, it's going to become a lot more common. So once the core rules allow allies, I'm going to (on average) enjoy 40K a lot less, because there's more chance of me ending up playing with someone who wants to use those rules. Since I don't have a stable group, I'm more likely to have to "put up with" stuff like that. So, I reckon it's reasonable for me to be a bit worried about that development.
That said, I'll probably just ignore it and stop playing 40K, without any real drama, if it ends up being a game I don't enjoy. I've got WM/H, so I'm not too fussed. But talking about it is still fun to me, for some barely understood reason
having a good solid non cheesy alliance system is a great way to sale models, and its a great way to really have customized armies. As as a painter and modeler, this is just freaking fantastic to me. I have tons of one off models from different armies that I want to field.
I could see vanilla marines taking 3 squads of long fangs with this too. OUCH
Not news at this point but here is a facebook update from my flgs "Alright peeps, you knew it was coming. 40K 6th edition will be available for sale on June 30th. You can reserve your copy starting today at either the Provo or Lehi location."
Palindrome wrote:
On the other side of the coin the rumours fro fantasy 8th sounded really good before it was released and look how that turned out.
8th is the best ruleset Fantasy has ever had.
Since 8th Fantasy has become tremendously more popular.
Except among people who want a dice game to be perfectly predictable and non-random I guess.
I virtually stopped playing Fantasy. All the strategy of manovoure, charge and counter charge has been illiminated in favor of Initiative!! When my Bretonnians lances strike last on the charge that did it for me. NOW fantasy is a dice rolling game.
I don't mean to get on my soapbox here and sound like an old man, but back in the 1980s we had no internet, no citadel washes, barely any painting guides, or those little nozzles on plastic glue that just make so much sense, no liquid green stuff, no sand in tubs (you had to do it yourself ). I you wanted horse hair paint brushes, you had to buy a horse first, you had to make your own slotta bases, citadel paints were like tar, etc etc etc I could go on all night and day.
I wish back then that worrying about allies was our main problem!!
gannam wrote:yeah, my greyhunter squads would all be running around in chimeras with way more fireports.
Keep in mind they are dedicated transports, meaning you'll need to buy a unit to go with them, and unless they change the dedicated transport rules (which we've heard nothing on as yet) you'll have to start your GH's outside and load them up turn 1.
besides, how many fire points do you need with GH's?
gannam wrote:having a good solid non cheesy alliance system is a great way to sale models, and its a great way to really have customized armies. As as a painter and modeler, this is just freaking fantastic to me. I have tons of one off models from different armies that I want to field.
I could see vanilla marines taking 3 squads of long fangs with this too. OUCH
The problem is however, it is somewhat difficult to see an allies rule being really balanced IMHO, even if the allied force is required to take the mandatory FoC choices, it can still lead to armies plugging gaps in their list with the reeeally powerful units from other Codices (e.g. Long Fangs, Vendetta's, Psyflemen).
The current rumours suggest the allies must provide a (single) HQ and a (single) Troops choice, which means Grey Knights allies for example could simply take an Inquisitor and Henchmen (which could cost as little as 37pts altogether - made even better if KP's are removed and VP's re-introduced - before an army could load up on Psyflemen or Purifiers etc.
Similarly, if an army wanted an ally to provide Vendettas or Long Fangs, then Veterans and Grey Hunters are both very good troop choices, whilst Rune Priests and IGHQ's are good and cheap respectively.
I think with allies, there is a lot of room for abuse, even with restrictions.
@ DO_I_NOT_LIKE_THAT. It's true it is a "golden age of gaming" as we keep hearing. There are better paints, ever improving models,a strong third party presence, even video games devoted to our hobby. So we've got to find something to complain about what will we do>
Yeah, but the fact that things are better than they were does not stop anyone from pointing out when something isn't good or could be better- that's how things improve!
TBD wrote:Yes, you are of course right about Eldar/Necrons.
It will be interesting to see who gets to be buddies with who aside from the obvious.
For example will Black Templars be able to be allies to another Imperium army that includes a psyker? Especially GK
Looks like another forever unallied army to me.
According to the fluff, alliance restrictions should be like this:
Spoiler:
Imperium 1)Black Templars: can ally 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8 if they don't include Psykers.
2)Blood Angels: can ally 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 (with duel), 8, 11, 13, 15
3)Dark Angels: can ally 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 if they don't include abhumans.
4)Grey Knights: can ally 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 11, 13, 14, 15
5)Imperial Guard: can ally 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, (9, 10 as traitor guard), 11, 14, 15
6)Sisters of Battle: can ally 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
7)Space Marines: can ally 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 11, 15
8)Space Wolves: can ally 1, 2, 3 (with duel), 4, 5, 7, 11, 15
Chaos 9)Chaos Daemons: can ally 5 (as traitor guard), 10
10)Chaos Space Marines: can ally 5 (as traitor guard), 9, 14
Eldar 11)Eldar: can ally 4, 5, 7, 8, 14, 15
12)Dark Eldar: can ally 11(kinship), 14
Others 13)Necrons: can ally 2, 4, 13, 14, 15
14)Orks: can ally 4, 5, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15 as mercenaries.
15)Tau Empire: can ally 2, 4, 5, 7 (Ultramarines), 8, 13, 14 (not if a Farsight army).
16)Tyranids: forever alone
Except for the fact that Black Templars are expressly stated in their codex as being able to ally with Grey Knights and they are the only psykers they can ally with as well. Just a fact you may not have known, otherwise nice work. Looks almost identical to the allies matrix GW published for the tournament.
gannam wrote:yeah, my greyhunter squads would all be running around in chimeras with way more fireports.
Makes me chuckle just thinking about the site of spacewolves all hunkered down in an ork truck blasting fools.
pretty sure that happened in a Bill King novel at one point...
Ragnar's Claw, the second of the Ragnar books by Bill King has Ragnar and co infiltrate an Ork base and steal an Ork buggy and then proceed to race Orks. Obviously the Space Wolves win because they are Space Wolves. That and the Ork they were racing was too busy wiggling his arse mooning the Space Wolves. pages 401 to 408 of the first Space Wolf Omnibus.
In a way I really shouldn't be contributing to this thread. I won't be buying the 6th rulebook, I've left the GW universe for other games systems that are better and cheaper (still like the odd novel) and I'm too long in the tooth to get upset over plastic soldiers. That being said, people are passionate about their hobby, and rightly so as it is a very good hobby, but things could be a lot worse than allies in 6th
Fact: 9 out of every ten people moaning about 6th would gladly murder their fellow geek for a free rulebook
Hmm, a Battle Royale/Hunger games contest for free GW minis I bet it's happened somewhere!
IdentifyZero wrote:Except for the fact that Black Templars are expressly stated in their codex as being able to ally with Grey Knights and they are the only psykers they can ally with as well. Just a fact you may not have known, otherwise nice work. Looks almost identical to the allies matrix GW published for the tournament.
Thank you, here is the final version:
Spoiler:
Imperium 1)Black Templars: can ally 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 if they don't include Psykers (except 4). 2)Blood Angels: can ally 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 (with duel), 8, 11, 13, 15 3)Dark Angels: can ally 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 if they don't include abhumans. 4)Grey Knights: can ally 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 11, 13, 14, 15 5)Imperial Guard: can ally 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, (9, 10 as traitor guard), 11, 14, 15 6)Sisters of Battle: can ally 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7 7)Space Marines: can ally 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 11, 15 8)Space Wolves: can ally 1, 2, 3 (with duel), 4, 5, 7, 11, 15
Chaos 9)Chaos Daemons: can ally 5 (as traitor guard), 10 10)Chaos Space Marines: can ally 5 (as traitor guard), 9, 12 (Salamander novels), 14
Eldar 11)Eldar: can ally 4, 5, 7, 8, 14, 15 12)Dark Eldar: can ally 10 (Salamander novels), 11(kinship), 14
Others 13)Necrons: can ally 2, 4, 13, 14, 15
14)Orks: can ally 4, 5, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15 as mercenaries.
15)Tau Empire: can ally 2, 4, 5, 7 (Ultramarines), 8, 11, 13, 14 (not if a Farsight army).
Noisy_Marine wrote:Nids don't need allies because their codex rocks amiright?
Exactly. i think not only are they going to ban allies in tournaments for 6th, they are going to ban Codex: Tyranids.
New rules really don't address some of the problems with Nid armies, most notably that all the best units are crammed into a few corners of the FOC. I think a new dex is still their best bet to get back to being competitive.
Tyranids can't ally, but apparently they get lots of Monstrous creature special rules added for their pleasure. Stomp, Impact Hits etc.
Any unit being charged can make a snap shot at BS 1. They use the full profile of the weapon. You can also use snapshot offensively, that meaning my tactical squad even if I move, I can shoot my Lascannon at BS 1. No template weapons, tanks benefit from this rule.
Run is not removed. Fleet means you can re-roll you run or re-roll one of the D6 to charge.
No assault after deepstrike.
Flyers are hit on 6's if they perform a Zoom maneuver.
Wanted to make a perhaps slightly OT observation...where are the WD leaks? Isn't it pretty typical to have a WD leak just about a week before its release?
I wonder if GW finally wisened up and decided to send everything out overnight express to stores so the rather brave store owners can't leak anything...
Tau can ally with Eldar (missing) and Kroot with everyone who is willing to pay (depends on them getting an HQ in the next Codex).
Tyranids: forever alone but replete
No assault after deep strike makes daemons sad, but I am very curious how the deep-strike mishap table has been modified, if it even exists anymore.
Also is there any real credence to these alliances we are supposing right now, or is mainly based on fluff/our hopes/logic.
I think the alliance stuff could be very very fun, but you could make some very very unbalanced armies if they do not specify the restrictions, also I doubt they will ever be used in tournaments unless it is a huge part of the game.
Courtesy of a friend from Games Workshop who has spent time with the Warhammer 40k 6th Edition rulebook. We (manager of my LGS) sent him a list of questions and these were his answers. Alot of IDK's, but some good stuff in there too.
Did the Force Org chart change?
No, the force org has not changed. It is still 1 HQ and 2 Troops. 3 Fast Attack, 3 Elites, 3 Heavy Support. Although, allies allows you in certain situati...ons to to add an HQ from another army and 1 Troop. You also, once you have satisfied the minimums can take 1 Fast, 1 Elite and 1 Heavy for you allies also. After your list is 2,000 pts, it appears you can double the Force Org chart. So up to four HQ with allies.
Is there pre-measuring for actions? (which ones?)
Pre-measure anytime and anywhere.
What AP are: Chain Swords, Power Swords, Power Fists, Chain Fists, Thunder Hammers?
I do not know.
Cover Save for: Buildings, Ruins, Area Terrain (trees and whatnot)?
Cover saves seem less forgiving. I would expect less, I know being in woods or trees is now 5+. Also, if you have (Example) 4 guys that are not in terrain. I, being the shooting player, can target just those guys that are not in cover. I have no opportunity to kill the guys in cover although. Interesting.
What is the assault / charge distance?
2D6
Do vehicles have hull points?
Yes
How are psychic powers determined?
Leadership tests, everyone can attempt to nullify a psychic power.
What is the turn sequence?
Normal?
How do rapid fire weapons work?
Rapid Fire appears to have not changed, that I saw...I don't know.
Is 'overwatch' (like Necromunda) in the rules - how does it work?
Snap Shot is the rule. Any unit being charged can make a snap shot at BS 1. They use the full profile of the weapon. You can also use snapshot offensively, that meaning my tactical squad even if I move, I can shoot my Lascannon at BS 1. No template weapons, tanks benefit from this rule.
Is there a defensive fire mechanic (snapfire) for units being assaulted in the rules - how does it work?
See above.
Can vehicles contest objectives?
I am not sure
Where does the red fern grow?
Somewhere in the Ozarks.
Will you declare and move types (like assault and/or run) in the move phase ala fantasy?
No
how will fleet usr work, especially if run is removed
Run is not removed. Fleet means you can re-roll you run or re-roll one of the D6 to charge.
Are flyers hit on 6's with shooting weapons and if true are there ways to mitigate that.
Flyers are hit on 6's if they perform a Zoom maneuver.
Details on how allies will work? Will it be on a codex by codex basis (eg CSM codex is rumored to allow IG and Chaos Demons via allies), with very specific unit allowances, more generic FOC based like the old demonhunter and witchhunter rules or fairly open ended anything goes.
There are three categories of allies. Lots of potential, I am not sure of the chart off the top of my head. CSM do get traitor guard, I also believe Demons. Tau have SM and Eldar. Lots of other arrangements. Tyranids get no one....but lots of Monstrous creature special rules added for their pleasure. Stomp, Impact Hits etc.
Details on how challeges will work? IC only? sgts and other models also involved? What about MCs and the like.
I dont know.
The AP of some other ccw's (rending, monstrous creatures, basic attacks, boneswords, two handed ccws,)
I dont know.
How will poison work in the new rules. Still rerolls if S equal or greater then T? Will the to wound number be adjusted at all (rumor that if you normally wound on 2+ then you use that number)
I dont know
Psychic defense and abilities for armies without psychers? Rumor that all units get a 6+ save against psychic powers. Another rumor that their might be ways for Tau etc to get psychers.
I believe everyone will have access to some sort of psyker. 6+ is true for everyone.
Example of new psychic power, maybe a default one and a super powerful one (assuming its like fantasy) and who would be able to take it in current codexes.
I dont know.
Whats the effect on embarked units when transport is damaged, wrecked, penned etc. Can they more easily go about their business like 5ed, or entagled like 4ed, or something in between.
Similar, not sure. Much harder to blow up vehicles. Vehicle Damage chart has change as well as Deep Strike Mishap has changed.
Affect of being open topped (good and bad)
Not sure, I believe it is the similar
Monstrous creature rules revamped at all? Like how do they get cover saves, are they more/less surviable, do they retain 2d6 pen, Ap of their cc attacks
Not sure, see above in allies for some info.
Rumor of changes to wound and to hit charts to be more like fantasy. True?
I am not sure
How will reserves work in the standard missions? Still always an option? Updates to determining when units arrive? Outflanking updated or same?
Normally it seems
Can you assault after deepstrike?
No
Changes to how units fire out of a vehicle (like say if it moves can only one model fire, is their range reduced, do they gain relentless)
None that I noticed
Does relentless add shots to weapon if statioanry and if so is it just rapid fire weapons or is it also assault
I do not know
Pistols work different now? Do they just add attack like a ccw or can they actually fire in cc.
I do not know this.
Assault weapons work different now? Can you still shoot and assault or ill they get some sort of ability to fire or affect on the charge?
In other words: More of the same thing we've been hearing, and no real confirmation. This seems to me that a lot of this stemmed from one leak, and is just being re-hashed multiple times, with each person putting their own spin on it.
Until we get concrete confirmation, it could potentially be assumed that a lot of this could simply be trolling by rumor mongers looking for attention. However, even if it's legit, the rehashing still seems to be due to the "Lookie! I have information nobody else has!" mentality of some folks. I'm just ready to get my hands on a rulebook so I can check these rules out.
I'd also like to see what the Gamer and Collector's editions look like soon...I want to know if I'm gonna want to drop that cash on it.
IdentifyZero wrote:Except for the fact that Black Templars are expressly stated in their codex as being able to ally with Grey Knights and they are the only psykers they can ally with as well. Just a fact you may not have known, otherwise nice work. Looks almost identical to the allies matrix GW published for the tournament.
Thank you, here is the final version:
Spoiler:
Imperium 1)Black Templars: can ally 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 if they don't include Psykers (except 4).
2)Blood Angels: can ally 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 (with duel), 8, 11, 13, 15
3)Dark Angels: can ally 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 if they don't include abhumans.
4)Grey Knights: can ally 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 11, 13, 14, 15
5)Imperial Guard: can ally 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, (9, 10 as traitor guard), 11, 14, 15
6)Sisters of Battle: can ally 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7
7)Space Marines: can ally 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 11, 15
8)Space Wolves: can ally 1, 2, 3 (with duel), 4, 5, 7, 11, 15
Chaos 9)Chaos Daemons: can ally 5 (as traitor guard), 10
10)Chaos Space Marines: can ally 5 (as traitor guard), 9, 12 (Salamander novels), 14
Eldar 11)Eldar: can ally 4, 5, 7, 8, 14, 15
12)Dark Eldar: can ally 10 (Salamander novels), 11(kinship), 14
Others 13)Necrons: can ally 2, 4, 13, 14, 15
14)Orks: can ally 4, 5, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15 as mercenaries.
15)Tau Empire: can ally 2, 4, 5, 7 (Ultramarines), 8, 13, 14 (not if a Farsight army).
16)Tyranids: forever alone
Who do the Sisters of Battle Ally with!?!
Speaking of Forever Alone, they are the only ones you left off!
Really, they should just separate the whole ally system from fluff to make it easier to make. A lot of the allies justifications (Necrons <3 Blood Angels, Tau <3 Space Marines) is pretty stupid to begin with. Give Nids Imperial Guard allies for all I care as long as it isn't justifited with fluff.
Milez wrote:Space wolves just need 1 ally. Enter the Emperors Champion! Hello preferred enemy!
Well, that is assuming that special rules and effects are passed between factions. I mean, it would be awesome to slap some Tau gunlines down and have an IGCCS give them orders (unfortunately, FRFSRF specifically states models with lasguns, else it would be oh so broken), and have them shoot as if TL, or have the enemy re-roll cover saves...or using markerlights to give those Guardsmen infantry blobs BS4 with FRFSRF...Hrmmmm
Davor wrote:So since Tyranids can't ally with anyone, it was said they geet MC boosts. So will these boosts be for Tyranids only?
From what I can gather from the rumor moungers, they are for MC in general. And we do not know for sure if Tyranids are on thier own...that is just speculation from non-rumor moungers.
Milez wrote:Space wolves just need 1 ally. Enter the Emperors Champion! Hello preferred enemy!
Well, that is assuming that special rules and effects are passed between factions. I mean, it would be awesome to slap some Tau gunlines down and have an IGCCS give them orders (unfortunately, FRFSRF specifically states models with lasguns, else it would be oh so broken), and have them shoot as if TL, or have the enemy re-roll cover saves...or using markerlights to give those Guardsmen infantry blobs BS4 with FRFSRF...Hrmmmm
How about anyone partnered with Necrons?
Prob not happen, but Tau + Necrons... Necrons make it nightfighting, Tau see through it easy...
Or Necrons with highly shooty armies and you use a death+despair squad and a triarch stalker.
I'm a tad concerned about the ramifications of snap fire on low-armour armies. What I mean is my ten woman squad of wyches charging into a squad of tactical marines and being blunted before even making it into base-to-base. I know the BS of the marines will be low, therefore making it hard to hit, but with only ten models in the wyches, the marines being able to fire everything bar template and blast weapons will mean only a few need to wound to hamper the wyches considerably. Horde armies could suffer the losses, wyches may well not. I'm assuming if you can fire a heavy weapon, rapid firing is allowed too. Understandably it's all out of context and perhaps the wyches being so close to the marines could well use their invulnerable save, so I'm simply worrying on the face value of the rule, but still...
[10:35:09] <source> Ok
[10:35:13] <source> so GW is spoilin 6E
[10:35:15] <source> over the phone
[10:35:23] <source> allies chart is in for sure, a matrix
[10:40:13] <source> you need 1 HQ 2 Troop of your own army
[10:40:26] <source> then you can ally, need 1 HQ 1 Troop of that army
[10:40:31] <source> then may take other slots
[10:45:49] <source> it's still move shoot assault
[10:46:01] <source> "snapshop" = stand and shoot for an assaulted unit
[10:46:20] <source> BS1
[10:46:58] <source> no template or blast
[10:47:32] <source> someone gimme a BoLS link so I can confirm/deny gak
[10:48:04] <source> "schools of psychic powers"
[10:48:11] <source> not sure if its random though
[10:50:44] <source> these psychic powers are IN ADDITION to your codex powers
[10:51:11] <source> so you don't lose any of the powers in a current codex
[10:52:25] <source> premeasure all the time
[10:52:40] <source> random charges 2d6 for foot, 3d6 drop lowest for jump pack troops
[10:53:05] <source> jump pack troops get "hammer of wrath" = impact hits, 1 A @ I 10, normwal weapon normal attack
[10:53:35] <source> for jump packs, not sure about wings, maybe
[10:53:41] <source> he only got to look at the book for an hour
[10:53:46] <source> to "pick topics for customers"
[11:00:13] <source> 6 missions, and 3 deployment zones
[11:00:23] <source> primary and 3 secondary objectives
[11:00:28] <source> vps for objectives
[11:00:35] <chip> source
[11:00:37] <chip> you have the book?
[11:00:45] <chip> oh, over the phone
[11:00:48] <source> yeh
[11:01:02] <source> "first blood" = 2nd objective
[11:01:09] <source> worth 1 vp [11:01:37] <source> any questions chip?
[11:01:42] <source> I got him for like 10 mins more maybe ;p
[11:01:50] <chip> can special characters be brought as allies
[11:02:07] <source> he didn't see any limit on it no
[11:02:25] <source> no more dawn of war, no more spearhead
[11:02:41] <source> one is like triangles
[11:02:44] <source> cleanse 2?
[11:02:47] <chip> vehicle damage chart info?
[11:03:13] <source> as in?
[11:03:27] <chip> 1's stacking to destroyed? hull points?
[11:03:30] <chip> either/or/and
[11:04:20] <source> short edge to short edge deployment type
[11:04:21] <source> lol [11:04:52] <chip> no fething way
[11:05:13] <chip> Can you get info about different CCWAP values
[11:05:20] <source> he didn't look at that
[11:05:26] <source> I did ask, there is somethin about CCWs [11:05:37] <source> power weapon is AP2
[11:06:35] <chip> You sure about that? Pretty confident people said AP3
[11:07:45] <source> there is a hull point systemm, damage chart changed
[11:08:03] <source> 1-2 shaked 3 = stuned 4 = weapon destroyed 5 = wrecked 6 = kablam
[11:08:25] <source> he didnt seen an immobile on the chart
[11:08:42] <source> he just "Saw that it said AP2, not sure what it was about"
[11:09:20] <chip> oh crazy
[11:10:05] <source> terrain is a part of the FoC [11:10:13] <source> aegis defense line 50pts
[11:10:27] <source> cover is 5+
[11:11:18] <chip> wow
[11:11:21] <chip> thats way cheaper than i thought
[11:11:39] <chip> any example psychic powers?
[11:12:31] <source> nope
[11:12:42] <source> "fortifcation FOC slot"
[11:13:09] <source> 1 per game
[11:14:38] <chip> so no tables full of terrain
[11:15:57] <source> err sorry 1 per player per game
[11:16:25] <source> rapid fire is half range not 12"
[11:17:47] <chip> oh interesting
[11:17:51] <source> rapid fire isnt limited by movement
[11:17:52] <chip> but aren't rapid fire guns 24"
[11:17:55] <chip> so half range is 12"
[11:18:09] <source> snapshot is also for HWs that have moved
[11:18:52] <chip> wait, so you can fire a krak missile as a snapshot?
[11:19:06] <source> yes
[11:19:10] <source> BS1
[11:19:22] <source> heavy bolter that moves = 3 shots at BS1
[11:20:54] <chip> thats insane
Milez wrote:Space wolves just need 1 ally. Enter the Emperors Champion! Hello preferred enemy!
Funny, but no. The vows affects Black Templars Last I checked, those fanged werewolf inbred vikings, well, they were not crusading Black Templars. Even if you did that, the vows would only work on the Black Templar units.
Exact wording: "In close combat, BLACK TEMPLARS units count as having the Preferred Enemy special rule against the enemy army. Neophytes do not benefit from this vow and hit normally etc..."
just speculating, perhaps if your unit has frag grenades (or an equivalent) then they dissalow the charged unit from making a snap shot, would make sense as it would force the guys to get away from the ball of explosive death opposed to popping off shots. just speculating of course and I doubt it will happen, wonder if frag grenades will play the same role or if thye have changed a bit. suppose we'll see soon
I'll admit, the mental image of some Longfangs firing krak missiles into the face of whatever is charging them is pleasing to me, and I hate Space Wolves!
All these rumor slips are giving me a good picture of 6th, and it doesn't sound bad. However, not having the book is sheer torture. Waiting until release day is going to drive me nuts.
I would be happy if the "allied" units worked like IA 11 list for Corsairs. You can have 0-1 of X...depending on your ally status. Provides just enough difference to allow for more variety in lists (at least until Mathammer wins out).
protomane0 wrote:just speculating, perhaps if your unit has frag grenades (or an equivalent) then they dissalow the charged unit from making a snap shot, would make sense as it would force the guys to get away from the ball of explosive death opposed to popping off shots. just speculating of course and I doubt it will happen, wonder if frag grenades will play the same role or if thye have changed a bit. suppose we'll see soon
The problem is that almost every single Imperial unit, from humble Guardsmen to Stormtrooper and Sister to Space Marine has Frag grenades as basic equipment, and that would basically make snapshot pointless except against Terminators, Walkers and...most Xenos armies
Thus, we get issues of over-prevalence and imbalance.
What really concerns me is all the rumors point to shooting becoming even more deadly. Which shifts the balance even further away from assault being a viable way of running an army. GK and IG are already blowing assault armies off the table, and now with random charges, snap fire, rapid fire buffs... I have every right to be concerned about how the hundreds of dollars I've spent on Orks and Wych DE is going to perform.
Goresaw wrote:What really concerns me is all the rumors point to shooting becoming even more deadly. Which shifts the balance even further away from assault being a viable way of running an army. GK and IG are already blowing assault armies off the table, and now with random charges, snap fire, rapid fire buffs... I have every right to be concerned about how the hundreds of dollars I've spent on Orks and Wych DE is going to perform.
I get the opposite feeling. The rumors, to me, point to assault being more unavoidable and thus more deadly. If winged MC's are getting a 24" move, then they can be put into position to strike an enemy weak spot on turn 2 with little reprocusion.
Flyers getting hit on 6's from shooting will make it that much more difficult for enemies to stop flying transports from delivering their assault payload. It will be much easier for a Stormraven to get the talented furioso into the enemy lines. Necrons can deliver 10 Lytchguard and Oberon into the enemy lines on turn 2 veil to the embarked Zandreth on a Nightscythe. It will take 6's to hit the scythe to prevent this. Not an easy thing to stop.
The rumors point to winged MC's moving up to 24" and fast moving flyers only getting hit on 6's. Both units can deliver an assault faster and more reliably then what we can do now. Assault is looking good right now.
Tyranids have always been traditionally sans allies. It just doesn't fit in with the fluff. The closest you would get would be a genestealer cult infiltrating and corrupting imperial forces but by the time the Hive Fleet proper arrives its more nom nom burp next planet.....
Im quite excited by some of the rumours above. Sounds like a decent shake up and the buffs for Tyranids could 'gasp' make them a viable force again?
That said i am a little concerned that if the allies arent restricted in some way then there could be some not much fun WAAC games ahead....
I've always thought of the allies rules as a way to just sell you more models. Then they will become freakishly unbalanced and be dissalowed, but by then you've already bought your allied models, so GW wins.
That aside, I would be willing to sacrafice a few local gamers to appease the Chaos Gods if GW would bring back a legal Genestealer Cult army that wasn't "counts as".
Allies is a HUGE ploy to buy extra models. Look at some armies like Tau who haven't had new models to buy for years, for example. Now to remain able to play with any decent chance of winning I will now have to buy a HQ and possibly 1-2 Troop choices of another army. Depending on who I choose thats going to be roughly $90. And if I really want to get the good units, I would have to invest even more money which doesn't make me happy.
Secondly this is easily a ploy for people running only one army to buy and build another army. I have a lot of friends who only started collecting another army after getting some of their units. So people who buy this HQ and troops may be likely to go ahead and invest in the entire army as well. This sounds like conspiracy, but I have seen about 10 people at my local gaming store end up with two armies in this fashion.
The idea of Allies honestly sucks a lot of the fun out of the game for me. I just hope that there will be some benefit of running a single army with no allies.
Dantalian wrote: Now to remain able to play with any decent chance of winning I will now have to buy and HQ and possibly 1-2 Troop choices of another army.
Dantalian wrote: Now to remain able to play with any decent chance of winning I will now have to buy and HQ and possibly 1-2 Troop choices of another army.
What are you basing that idea on?
The current rumor that the allies matrix will require you to take an HQ and 1 to 2 troop choices (Another FOC) as previously posted.
Dantalian wrote: Now to remain able to play with any decent chance of winning I will now have to buy and HQ and possibly 1-2 Troop choices of another army.
What are you basing that idea on?
The current rumor that the allies matrix will require you to take an HQ and 1 to 2 troop choices (Another FOC) as previously posted.
That wasn't really his question. His question was "Why do you need to ally to win?"
Dantalian wrote: Now to remain able to play with any decent chance of winning I will now have to buy and HQ and possibly 1-2 Troop choices of another army.
What are you basing that idea on?
Every imperial army is benefited by making grey hunters or mech vets its basic troop.
adamsouza wrote:Hey, I know I'm missing something. Why can Tau Ally with Blood Angels and Vanilla Marines, but not the other chapters ?
Well to be fair it's only a theory list. I'm hoping that all armies can ally with each other and the fluff only effects how much you can use from another army.
Iff the allies is true stuff, and i think it is, i think we will see a BIG codex review in this book... things like tau rapid firing from 15", Nids returning to a great nidzilla theme, and space wolves costing 18 points per Grey Hunter...
Anyway, i think Nids should have the allies with something: at least Dark Eldars know how to "control them", and ordo xenos can have lots of ways to control small bands of less inteligent beasts...
I really think Dark Eldars who can not ally with Tau are a piece of sheet... Codex DE state a battle of that type :/
And to sustain the grimdark thing, all factions should have ways to ally all factions... Some times, the enemy of your enemy IS your best friend, and you can never guess who is who...
I mean, Dark Eldars can Ally with necrons to fight nids, Eldar can ally chaos marines to fight xenofobic IG, Space Wolves can ally Khorne Berzerkers to fight Dark Angels...
The "possible ally" thing just make the grimdark becoming a litle more "evil vs good"...
Dantalian wrote: Now to remain able to play with any decent chance of winning I will now have to buy and HQ and possibly 1-2 Troop choices of another army.
What are you basing that idea on?
The current rumor that the allies matrix will require you to take an HQ and 1 to 2 troop choices (Another FOC) as previously posted.
That wasn't really his question. His question was "Why do you need to ally to win?"
I assumed he wasn't asking the stupidly obvious question
I can't think of a single army that can't in some way lesson or eliminate their "weakness" with allies. For Tau this would mean armies that can shoot like Tau AND have insane melee. It's a no brainer that all armies will be a lot stronger with allies in their army, even GK.
Dantalian wrote:Allies is a HUGE ploy to buy extra models. Look at some armies like Tau who haven't had new models to buy for years, for example. Now to remain able to play with any decent chance of winning I will now have to buy a HQ and possibly 1-2 Troop choices of another army. Depending on who I choose thats going to be roughly $90. And if I really want to get the good units, I would have to invest even more money which doesn't make me happy.
Secondly this is easily a ploy for people running only one army to buy and build another army. I have a lot of friends who only started collecting another army after getting some of their units. So people who buy this HQ and troops may be likely to go ahead and invest in the entire army as well. This sounds like conspiracy, but I have seen about 10 people at my local gaming store end up with two armies in this fashion.
The idea of Allies honestly sucks a lot of the fun out of the game for me. I just hope that there will be some benefit of running a single army with no allies.
I think it's a great thing. Obviously GW is trying to encourage us to buy more stuff (though the absolute necessity of it is still in question), but I think this is a great move by GW. Being able to "think outside your codex" is part of what made Apocalypse such a big sales earner for GW (that and not having any limits...and having access to big kits), so it's very fair for them to extend this mindset, however limited it may be, to regular games. From a sales perspective, it also encourages players to take baby steps into making an entirely new army, too - GW knows that most players won't go out and buy whole new armies, but those people now have a reason to at least buy something most months.
I really don't see how that's a conspiracy on GW's part, either; this kind of cross-selling is common in all retail businesses (I work in retail, I see it all the time). IMHO, it's a great sales strategy, and one that I still heartily approve of as a customer.
It might not be a really bad thing for players, either. How long has it been since your codex gained an update, either in rules or in model waves? For my Chaos, there's been little since its codex release. But with an allies system, I can start looking forward to IG and Daemon releases as well (never mind that I already have armies for both of those...but you get my point).
There's about one thing from all this that I wouldn't approve of: 7th edition taking away allies, leaving all those players with half-started armies just begging to be completed. It'd be the Chaos Space Marine/Chaos Daemon codex split net rage all over again
Personally I like the idea of allies, from a New Army Concept. I currently play Imperial Guard and Marines, but I would like to give Tau, Chaos Marines and Necron. I like to play WYSIWYG and hate using proxies. I also cannot afford a whole new army. This would allow me to pick up and try new units and not be bothered by WYSIWYG.
Cheexsta wrote:It might not be a really bad thing for players, either. How long has it been since your codex gained an update, either in rules or in model waves?
So being possibly forced into buying models to meet a new standard is better than not wanting to buy models and waiting for an update? If you really want new models, then buy yourself a new army. I for one truly dislike the other armies in 40k, and thats why I haven't bought another army over the last 12 years. There shouldn't be a rule that makes this choice for you if you are to buy new models or not.
Dantalian wrote:\I assumed he wasn't asking the stupidly obvious question
I can't think of a single army that can't in some way lesson or eliminate their "weakness" with allies. For Tau this would mean armies that can shoot like Tau AND have insane melee. It's a no brainer that all armies will be a lot stronger with allies in their army, even GK.
I'll re-state the question then: What rules are you basing that on?
All we know for sure so far is that armies have the ability to take allies, and that there are some FoC requirements for this. We don't know yet if that is the full story, or if there are other rules that go along with it.
Cheexsta wrote:It might not be a really bad thing for players, either. How long has it been since your codex gained an update, either in rules or in model waves?
So being possibly forced into buying models to meet a new standard is better than not wanting to buy models and waiting for an update? If you really want new models, then buy yourself a new army. I for one truly dislike the other armies in 40k, and thats why I haven't bought another army over the last 12 years. There shouldn't be a rule that makes this choice for you if you are to buy new models or not.
Insaniak answers this better than I could have.
If this allies system is balanced properly, then you won't need to use them at all. But the option is there, because lets face it, codices will have long gaps between updates. The allies system simply gives everyone an opportunity to make use of something new nearly all the time.
Of course, I'm making just as many assumptions as you are, so I'll leave it at that until the actual rules are in my hands. You may very well be right; the allies system may be broken, to the point where not taking allies might be a huge disadvantage. I'm saying that it's just as likely that they'll just end up as another nice option that you can take or leave.
(For what it's worth, the current rumour is that you'll have a separate FOC for allies, with a minimum of 1 HQ and 1 Troop if you decide to take them. It seems that you might be limited to spending up to 30% of your army's total on allies, too. I can't cite specific sources for this because they're all over the place, though.)
Dantalian wrote:\I assumed he wasn't asking the stupidly obvious question
I can't think of a single army that can't in some way lesson or eliminate their "weakness" with allies. For Tau this would mean armies that can shoot like Tau AND have insane melee. It's a no brainer that all armies will be a lot stronger with allies in their army, even GK.
I'll re-state the question then: What rules are you basing that on?
All we know for sure so far is that armies have the ability to take allies, and that there are some FoC requirements for this. We don't know yet if that is the full story, or if there are other rules that go along with it.
The sky is not falling just yet.
No, but there are some pretty frightening cracks in the ceiling.
Fafnir wrote:This sounds quite interesting on one side, since it means I could potentially be able to play the Inquisitional army that I always wanted.
Or, if you look at it from my point of view, the Inquisitorial army that we used to be able to field.
Fafnir wrote:This sounds quite interesting on one side, since it means I could potentially be able to play the Inquisitional army that I always wanted.
Or, if you look at it from my point of view, the Inquisitorial army that we used to be able to field.
Well, I have a few extra things that I want to throw in, in addition to the old toys...
Although I still miss the armoury. I did really enjoy gussying up my Inquisitors however the hell I wanted. The statline may have sucked, but they always did pretty well when they were pampered. I still have the fond memory of one of my Inquisitors taking up an eviscerator and single-handedly tearing through the better half of a Space Marine army all by his lonesome.
I doubt the "everyone wounds on a 6" rumour, as it will break the game, particularly when combined with the snapfire rumour and the "relentless grants an additional shot to RF" rumour. You would never, ever want to even try to assault a 20-man squad of Necron Warriors. And I shudder to think about an IG power blob.
Also: Traitor Guard + Demon Princes is the most horrifying idea ever. The mere thought of an IG parking lot with a Khorne-filled surprise inside is nightmare fuel.
However, we're all assuming that allies will cost their base points. What if allies end up costing a premium price? For example, if I wanna grab Meph and a unit of BA troops to fist-bump with my Necrons, what if Meph and the BA cost 700 points? That would give me the option of diversity, while seriously taking away the ability to spam cheap units. Like Long Fangs. At 280 points a squad (ML spam, of course), they're not the best deal in the game, but they do still offer that excellent option if your army desperately needs it.
I haven't seen this here yet, but apparently its a scan of the psychic powers chart for 6th edition. Seems legit, and matches the powers in the DHrp etc:
Out of interest, were random charge distances part of any other edition of Warhammer? I know 40K's never had them (I don't think RT had them, and I know 2nd-5th didn't). What about Fantasy?
H.B.M.C. wrote:Out of interest, were random charge distances part of any other edition of Warhammer? I know 40K's never had them (I don't think RT had them, and I know 2nd-5th didn't). What about Fantasy?
Only in 8th for WHFB. Until then charges were primarily double movement. Random movement has been around for a little but though.
7th through to the early editions I am sure never used random charge distance.
insaniak wrote:
I'll re-state the question then: What rules are you basing that on?
All we know for sure so far is that armies have the ability to take allies, and that there are some FoC requirements for this. We don't know yet if that is the full story, or if there are other rules that go along with it.
The sky is not falling just yet.
So your posting the "it's just a rumor" card in a thread dedicated to rumors. Supposing that the posted rumors are true then what I have stated is not wrong. Shuma is right, if any of what is being said is true then the sky is about to fall pretty hard on a lot of players.
AethyrKnight wrote:I haven't seen this here yet, but apparently its a scan of the psychic powers chart for 6th edition. Seems legit, and matches the powers in the DHrp etc:
What is the Space Marines? Everything but the Second One? What is the second one in English, does anyone know?
McNinja wrote:Everything can wound anything on a six? So Fire Warriors could wound a C'tan? Ha.
No.
Sorry, but I don't think that a piddly 2x4 rifle should be able to even slightly scratch the Necrodermis of the C'tan.
Um... I hate to break it to you but Fire Warriors have ALWAYS been able to wound a C'tan. The rule of always wounding on a 6 doesn't change anything for firewarriors unless T9+ units come out.
Luke_Prowler wrote:8th edition does have random charge distances, I remember the discussions about it when it was in the works. Can't say about the others
I'm more asking about the ones prior to 8th. I'm 99.9% certain that 5th-7th didn't have them, and as 2nd Ed 40K was based on 4th Ed, I'd say 4th Ed didn't have 'em as well. I just can't speak for 1st-3rd Ed Fantasy.
Luke_Prowler wrote:8th edition does have random charge distances, I remember the discussions about it when it was in the works. Can't say about the others
I'm more asking about the ones prior to 8th. I'm 99.9% certain that 5th-7th didn't have them, and as 2nd Ed 40K was based on 4th Ed, I'd say 4th Ed didn't have 'em as well. I just can't speak for 1st-3rd Ed Fantasy.
Random charge distances likely came from War of the Ring (along with a few others)
AethyrKnight wrote:I haven't seen this here yet, but apparently its a scan of the psychic powers chart for 6th edition. Seems legit, and matches the powers in the DHrp etc:
What is the Space Marines? Everything but the Second One? What is the second one in English, does anyone know?
In order
Space Marines
Space Wolves
Dark Angels
Blood Angels
Grey Knights
Black Templars
Chaos Space Marines
Demons of Chaos
Tau Empire
Eldar
Dark Eldar
Sisters of Battle
Necrons
Orks
Imperial Guard
Tyranids
Thunderfrog wrote:Besides, charging in fantasy has random elements.
It isn't completely random.
My Warriors have a base move of 4. Ogres have a base move of 6. Thus there is a minimum of 6 for Warriors and 8 for ogres.
It adds.. (oh crap) an element of risk and reward rather than just pure randomness.
Honestly, there's plenty of risk and reward already in the game, and plenty of better ways to implament it than in movement elements.
A lot of the fun, at least for me, in 40k comes through maneuvering to set up that perfect charge that'll win the game. Having to get rid of that element of tactics to throw it all on some dice is... not fun.
Huh. The Seismic Crucible (Necron wargear that reduces a unit's charge range, but by a set amount determined ahead of time) makes more sense now. I wonder if that will be useful
azazel the cat wrote:I doubt the "everyone wounds on a 6" rumour, as it will break the game, particularly when combined with the snapfire rumour and the "relentless grants an additional shot to RF" rumour. You would never, ever want to even try to assault a 20-man squad of Necron Warriors. And I shudder to think about an IG power blob.
Necrons wound most units in the game on a 6 or less anyway...
Dantalian wrote:So your posting the "it's just a rumor" card in a thread dedicated to rumors.
Yes, I am. Because people seem to be forgetting that rumours quite often don't give the whole picture. So complaining that a given rumoured rule is game breaking is slightly premature. All you can really say on the basis of the rumours so far is that there will be allies. Discussing the potential ramifications of that with any degree of accuracy is impossible until we get further information on just how it actually works.
Supposing that the posted rumors are true then what I have stated is not wrong. Shuma is right, if any of what is being said is true then the sky is about to fall pretty hard on a lot of players.
And supposing they're not true, or not the complete story, then it's not.
Unless you're actively trying to give yourself an ulcer, what point is there in complaining about it on the basis of an incomplete rumour?
Thunderfrog wrote:Besides, charging in fantasy has random elements.
It isn't completely random.
My Warriors have a base move of 4. Ogres have a base move of 6. Thus there is a minimum of 6 for Warriors and 8 for ogres.
It adds.. (oh crap) an element of risk and reward rather than just pure randomness.
Honestly, there's plenty of risk and reward already in the game, and plenty of better ways to implament it than in movement elements.
A lot of the fun, at least for me, in 40k comes through maneuvering to set up that perfect charge that'll win the game. Having to get rid of that element of tactics to throw it all on some dice is... not fun.
Nono! Please don't misunderstand. I like Fantasy because it blends a little risk with a no-gak base charge movement. I hate the idea of completely random 2d6 charging.
I dislike random movement elements at all, really. Perhaps it's just the control freak in me, but I enjoy planning things out and watching them unfold, or watching my opponent pry through the holes to my horror (and amusement).
Hm, chaos marines, the guys who are supposed to follow chaos gods, including the god of the secrets, lord of fate, master of change... dont have divination? Ok, GW dont love tzentch...
"Mysterious Objectives". If these are what I think they are it could be cool; actual, delineated objectives that offer a tangible bonus or penalty (and a battle storyline for the fluff bunnies).
I suppose they could also be objectives that pop up out of terrain when that terrain is entered & defined, and if that's the case the tourney/fixed values crowd is gonna be pulling out their hair in rage.
The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Hm, chaos marines, the guys who are supposed to follow chaos gods, including the god of the secrets, lord of fate, master of change... dont have divination? Ok, GW dont love tzentch...
Tzeentch is lord of change and schemes, not necessarily knowledge. But now that you mention it, the race who invented the psychic powers of "let's burn stuff with our fury" and "lightning rains from the sky" as well as "push EVERYTHING" (the last one from Dawn of War) have neither telekinesis nor pyromancy... and a whole bunch of imperial psychers suddenly got the ability to foresee the future, gee where were their psychers during any number of conflicts where they could've told them about just about anything useful?
The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Hm, chaos marines, the guys who are supposed to follow chaos gods, including the god of the secrets, lord of fate, master of change... dont have divination? Ok, GW dont love tzentch...
Tzeentch is lord of change and schemes, not necessarily knowledge. But now that you mention it, the race who invented the psychic powers of "let's burn stuff with our fury" and "lightning rains from the sky" as well as "push EVERYTHING" (the last one from Dawn of War) have neither telekinesis nor pyromancy... and a whole bunch of imperial psychers suddenly got the ability to foresee the future, gee where were their psychers during any number of conflicts where they could've told them about just about anything useful?
Tzeentch is also known as the Architect of Fate, which follows some sort of Divination to "arrange" certain realities to come to fruition. It's very similar to the Eldar Farseers who pick through the skeins of time threads to find an alternative path that allows them and their race to assert their agenda.
Being the Changer of Ways or the Architect of Fate has nothing to do with knowledge but manipulating events/futures to his/its whim.
To me, Divination seems to fit this criteria, allowing Tzeentch to "see" the different realities he can "change".
Luke_Prowler wrote:8th edition does have random charge distances, I remember the discussions about it when it was in the works. Can't say about the others
I'm more asking about the ones prior to 8th. I'm 99.9% certain that 5th-7th didn't have them, and as 2nd Ed 40K was based on 4th Ed, I'd say 4th Ed didn't have 'em as well. I just can't speak for 1st-3rd Ed Fantasy.
If I'm remember correctly, random charge distances were introduces in LotR 'War of the Ring'. I have not played it myself, but many players regard it as one of the better rulesets GW has published so far. The question remains of course if random charge distances will work 40k as well as the do in War of the Ring.
azazel the cat wrote:
Also: Traitor Guard + Demon Princes is the most horrifying idea ever. The mere thought of an IG parking lot with a Khorne-filled surprise inside is nightmare fuel.
Khorne Flakes, a surprise in every box...
All jokes aside though, allies and being able to take fortifications seems a bit over powered, the game will devolve in to broken combinations of armies or games in which people are taking turns to assault the other person's castle.
The new Chaos Codex might let Chaos Sorcerers that have different Marks access to different Lores.
The given table might just be for Undivided and/or a get-you-by list.
Seriously though, given A Thousand Sons, Tzeentch Sorcerers should have access to all lores.
Fafnir wrote:Furthermore, I'm still incredibly irate about random charge distanceb.
It's not that bad. Terrain is already a factor in half the charges I try, and most my CC units have fleet and depend on run rolls - I have learned to deal with both just fine. You get as close as you can, and oftentimes you can get close enough that even the worst roll can't stop your charge (within 1-2"). The charge roll as rumored is FAR better than charging through terrain is - 2 dice smoothes out the chances of a really bad roll, and the majority of the possible rolls are as good or better than the best possible current charge on open ground. Assuming a base 6" move, a non-fleet CC unit has a possible kill range of up to 18". You can stick to cover in the middle of the board, roll charges until you get a great roll and then whip halfway across the field to gak someone. It's tactically different, but it isn't the end of the world.
The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Hm, chaos marines, the guys who are supposed to follow chaos gods, including the god of the secrets, lord of fate, master of change... dont have divination? Ok, GW dont love tzentch...
Tzeentch is lord of change and schemes, not necessarily knowledge. But now that you mention it, the race who invented the psychic powers of "let's burn stuff with our fury" and "lightning rains from the sky" as well as "push EVERYTHING" (the last one from Dawn of War) have neither telekinesis nor pyromancy... and a whole bunch of imperial psychers suddenly got the ability to foresee the future, gee where were their psychers during any number of conflicts where they could've told them about just about anything useful?
Well he does own a library of almost all knowledge ever......so yeah
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Hollowman wrote:
Fafnir wrote:Furthermore, I'm still incredibly irate about random charge distanceb.
It's not that bad. Terrain is already a factor in half the charges I try, and most my CC units have fleet and depend on run rolls - I have learned to deal with both just fine. You get as close as you can, and oftentimes you can get close enough that even the worst roll can't stop your charge (within 1-2"). The charge roll as rumored is FAR better than charging through terrain is - 2 dice smoothes out the chances of a really bad roll, and the majority of the possible rolls are as good or better than the best possible current charge on open ground. Assuming a base 6" move, a non-fleet CC unit has a possible kill range of up to 18". You can stick to cover in the middle of the board, roll charges until you get a great roll and then whip halfway across the field to gak someone. It's tactically different, but it isn't the end of the world.
But it does hurt and makes planing a bitch. You nearly always have to be planning for failure now
H.B.M.C. wrote:But it's 6th remember, so chances are Chaos players will need to roll for their powers after deployment. RandomHammer is fun!!!!!
Just wait for one of these jokers to come exlaiming that the game is more strategic when you've no accurate idea what your units are capable of. You have to make a contingency for the event that your world destroying Sorcerer Lord is a gibbering monkey for the duration of the battle.
The new psychic powers are probably the next most tragic addition to the game after allies and purchaseable custom castle terrain. It seems they only exist to give Marine and IG players a boost since practically noone else gets anything.
I quite like the direction of these rules, but then I'm a bit bored anyway and I'm looking forward to learning a whole new set of tactics (and forcing the veteran players to do the same )
Also jump infantry look like they are getting some much needed attention, if the fleet re-rolls and JI rules are true my Hellions can now reliably charge 24-30 inches and are way harder hitting with the free attacks
Allies is weird, every faction has its weaknesses and it seems quite cheap that now you just switch a codex rather than find a way to mitigate that with good playing...
Cheexsta wrote:There's a Biomancy power that sounds exactly like a Nurgle power to me...
Biomancy is the control of bio-electrical energy and cell manipulation. It'd be used for things like creating lightning, changing your appearance, healing and boiling the blood of others.
I refer you to the Games Workshop final solution for ultimate balance where every player has to random roll their army book, units and weapon options before the battle. If you don't own the models you rolled your roll is wasted.
Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Blood Angels, masters of the Flamethrower Tank, don't get Pyromancy? HMMMMMMM.
Not sure why you would think Blood Angels would be pyromancy based off a simple vehicle modification.
If anything, that distinction should go to the Salamanders and maybe others including the Fire Hawks, etc..
Blood Angels should have Divination as it was their primarch's main power.
................... you'll be random rolling at the end of the game anyway who won because in 40K moral victories are what count. 1-2 player A won, 3-4 player B won, 5 draw, 6 Jervis Johnson won.
Your kidding right? Everyone knows that GW wins od a 1+!
AethyrKnight wrote:I haven't seen this here yet, but apparently its a scan of the psychic powers chart for 6th edition. Seems legit, and matches the powers in the DHrp etc:
Translation:
Codex: Blood Angels
The Blood Angels bibliothecaries may use the magic lores in the 40k rulebook instead of their own. If they choose to do so they generate 2 powers from their lores before battle.
Matt says: Blood Angels benefit a lot from biomancy, they have a couple spells to improve CC (Iron Hand and "something" speed) and they also have some nifty psykic firepower (Hemorrhage and Overlife)
Codex: Chaos Space Marines
All the chaos space marines with access to psykic powers may choose to use a power from their lore instead of their normal powers, they get 1 lore power for each power they bought, they may choose to roll on different lores. Tyfus get's 2, Ahriman 3.
Matt says: It's better for chaos space marines to focus on psykic fire power or in psychological war.
Overwatch is basically a stand and shoot reaction to charging at BS1, there's a psychic power called foreboding which gives overwatch at full BS and counter attack.
The highest LDHQ is the Warlord and gets to roll on a Warlord Trait table, before the game you roll on one of 3 tables - Command, Personal or Strategic Traits, 2 examples are Inspiring Presence; Units within 12" use the Warlords LD. Another is Immovable Object allowing the Warlord to capture objectives solo.
Flying Monstrous creatures can swoop 24" and perform a Vector Strike which is D3+1 hits at it's strength on a unit it flies over (in the example it says D3+2 I don't know if that's specific to Daemon princes as used in the boxed example or an error)
The Fortifications have special rules too, the Bastion in the Bat rep had a quad gun which has the Interceptor rule which allows it to shoot at a unit as it arrives from reserve and the Skyfire rule which allows it to shoot flyers at normal BS rather than BS1.
Monstrous creatures get the Smash ability which allows them to halve their attacks but strike at double strength.
Bastions have AV14 all round and have a heavy bolter on each facing, they're automated and target the nearest enemy unit, can have a comms relay or a heavy weapon on the battlement.
Tank traps are impassable terrain to all non skimmer vehicles, bikes can attempt to pass on a successful difficult terrain test, models behind it can get a 4+ cover save.
Aegis defence lines are a 4+cover save but models behind it get +2 to cover save if they go to ground behind it.
Mysterious forests are 5+ cover save, as soon as you enter you roll on the table to see what happens.
Ruins are difficult terrain and a 4+ cover save.
Wild undergrowth is a 5+ cover save and difficult terrain.
Imperial Statuary is all imperial models within 2" of the terrain piece are fearless.
Fuel Reserves 5+ cover save, each successful cover save roll a D6, on a 1 a barrel explodes doing a strength 3 hit on any models nearby.
Impact craters are a 5+ cover save if the unit is within it's boundaries.
Psykers can mix and match the new Psychic Disciplines, using the ones in their codex or by using the ones in the new rulebook, the example given is if space marine army had 2 librarians one could take codex powers and the other could take rulebook powers.
Originally Posted by paultwilson
It says fly over the unit so I'd guess that would mean that the model would go past the unit, kinda like the DE vane blades thing.
Monstrous creatures are AP2, haven't been able to gleam anything else.
I think that's the case, only choose between book or codex for each psyker, but I could be wrong, WD doesn't give a lot away.
From reading it basically says that there's an extra bit to the FOC allies and Fortifications, doesn't say how many slots only that (Jervis Johnson) "We expanded the Force Organisation Chart.." to allow players to use "two rival factions -engaging a mutual foe in battle"
Doesn't mention turn order as far as I can see but Assault is 2D6" fleet gets to reroll.
Afraid I can't really see anything, GW keeping tight lipped until next week I think!
Do have some more snippets from random boxes and stuff...
HQ's can challenge in single combat,
Jump packs get to re-roll charge rolls, Jet packs get to "scoot" up to 2D6" away in the assault phase,
Rage is +2 attacks on the charge
Dreadnoughts have 3 Hull points, Soul grinder, Ghost Arks and Land raiders have 4,
Land Speeders get Jink for a +5 cover save or 4+ if flat out,
There's a pic of a Beastman Imperial Guardsman "A type of abhuman designated Homo Sapien varatius in the rulebook's appendix,
Snipers can select targets if they roll a 6 to hit,
Gauss weapons remove a hull point on a hit of a 6, tesla works with the overwatch (needing 6's to hit at BS1) nicely (any sixes to hit are 2 hits),
Some Psychic powers marked as number 6 on what I would assume is a random table (looking at a picture of the cards all fanned out, can only see the top card)
Discipline of Biomancy - Haemorrage, warp charge 1, range 12". Haemorrage is a Focused witchfire power with a range of 12". The Target must pass a toughness test or suffer a wound with no armour saves or cover saves allowed. If the target is slain randomly select another model (friend or foe) within 2" of him. That model must pass a toughness test or suffer a wound with no armour or cover saves allowed. If that model dies, continue the process until a model survives or there are no suitable targets within range.
Discipline of Divination - Scrier's Gaze, Warp charge 1. Scrier's Gaze is a Blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, you can roll 3 dice and choose the result you want when rolling for reserves, outflank or mysterious terrain.
Discipline of Pyromancy - Molten Beam, warp charge 2, range 12". Molten beam is a Beam with the following profile - S8 AP1 Assault, melta
Discipline of Telekinesis - Vortex of Doom, warp charge 2, range 12". Vortex of doom is a Witchfire power with the following profile - S10 AP1, Heavy1, Blast* *If the psychic test is failed centre the template on the psyker, it does not scatter.
Discipline of Telepathy - Hallucination, warp charge 2, range 24". Hallucination is a Malediction that targets a single enemy unit within 24". Roll immediately to determine the manner of hallucinations the target is suffering from (roll once for the whole unit)
d6 1-2 - Unit is pinned, unless it automatically passes pinning tests or is locked in close combat, in which case there is no effect.
3-4 - The unit cannot shoot, run, declare charges or strike blows in close combat whilst the power is in effect.
5-6 - Every Model in the unit immediately inflicts a single hit on it's own unit, resolved at that models own strengths, but using the strength bonuses, AP values and special rules of the most powerful close combat weapons (if they have any)
Right, I'm going to bed now, I got back up to post this after checking my phone for updates on here!!
I haven't seen this here yet, but apparently its a scan of the psychic powers chart for 6th edition. Seems legit, and matches the powers in the DHrp etc:
Translation:
Codex: Blood Angels
The Blood Angels bibliothecaries may use the magic lores in the 40k rulebook instead of their own. If they choose to do so they generate 2 powers from their lores before battle.
Matt says: Blood Angels benefit a lot from biomancy, they have a couple spells to improve CC (Iron Hand and "something" speed) and they also have some nifty psykic firepower (Hemorrhage and Overlife)...
I bet that'll be 'Blood Boil' in the English rules.
That's the one I was referring to that sounds like a Nurgle-style power. Don't know about the other Biomancy powers, but IMHO that one would fit right in...
McNinja wrote:Everything can wound anything on a six? So Fire Warriors could wound a C'tan? Ha.
No.
Sorry, but I don't think that a piddly 2x4 rifle should be able to even slightly scratch the Necrodermis of the C'tan.
Um... I hate to break it to you but Fire Warriors have ALWAYS been able to wound a C'tan. The rule of always wounding on a 6 doesn't change anything for firewarriors unless T9+ units come out.
Now, now, don;t let rules and logic come into play here.
WE are all doomed, this edition ruins everything *TABLEFLIP*
I for one welcome allies, I've got lots of models from tons of armies, a lot custom converted, this will allow me to use them in something other than count-as necromunda gangs etc.
Scottywan82 wrote:And you all keep avoiding the idea that random IS risk. Investing is risky because the market is volatile. War is risky because battles are not always predictable. Randomness is almost synonymous with risk.
risk [risk] Show IPA
noun
1.
exposure to the chance of injury or loss; a hazard or dangerous chance: It's not worth the risk.
2.
Insurance .
a.
the hazard or chance of loss.
Why did I have to post this a second time? Risk is "exposure to chance". Risk is not chance. There is no risk reward scenario without the opt in or opt out of chance. How can you not understand what is fundamental to the basic definition of the term that you keep constructing arguments around...? Stop that.
For crying out loud. As someone who has studied this very topic and uses it to a degree in my work life. Let me explain to both of you what risks are.
A risk is the possibility of something happening, this is usually used in a negative sense. For instance you run the risk of being hit by a train if you cross the train tracks. The term Risk Management is used to try to quantify the liklihood that these events could take place and then mitigate when possible. The word risk does include an event which has a chance of happening.
On the other hand, a hazard is the word that is used to describe the negative event that actually happens. So when you say that "risk is not a chance", well you're not exactly correct. For instance in the above example the hazard of crossing the train tracks is being hit by a train.
Now there are ways of dealing with risks & hazards i.e. remove the hazard where possible, reduce the risk of the hazard happening.
A quick check on google and you can find sources that say this.
agius.com wrote: Hazard is the potential to cause harm; risk on the other hand is the likelihood of harm (in defined circumstances, and usually qualified by some statement of the severity of the harm).
I haven't been able to see them over in this thread yet (possibly because most image sites are filtered at my work, so I apologise if they have been posted). I'll copy across the images from the recently locked thread just incase there are any other people that are work blocked
After reading the intro of the cards section I can confirm that Matt Ward has written the codex, it says something along the lines of "the powers are briefly explained in the next page and explained in more detail by Ward in page 961 (so it is gonna be quite long
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Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
What is the Space Marines? Everything but the Second One? What is the second one in English, does anyone know?
No offense man but it's only Spanish, I mean if it was in Russian or Chinese it would be tough but come on, it's Marines Espaciales!
BTW I added this to the gallery for the work blocked.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oops, ninja'd!
I think he means the second lore, in which case it would be "Foreseeing"
Confirmation of AP1/2/3 damage dice for those interested in actual information
Thanks, i believe this picture was on an earlier page in the thread (or the other 6th ed thread that's now locked, it's hard to remember which).
So it looks like the white dwarf is out of the bag, now for the real deep details we all must wait patiently until the 30th....*twitch*....
I'm sure every day next week, their will be an article on whats new today, explaining some of the many new rules and changes, how can we pre-order something, if we have no idea whats in it?
Confirmation of AP1/2/3 damage dice for those interested in actual information
I'll hazard a completely unfounded and wild guess, that AP1 is +1 to damage table, AP2 dice is the normal damage table and AP3 (and higher) are -1 to the damage table. Close combat weapons having AP values now can use the same dice for determining damage results.
Allied Battle Report per chance?
This crap just gets from bad to worse to disastrous. Not only did they introduce some absolutely broken and ridiculous rules which clearly aren't optional in GW's eyes they're actually trying to push everyone into using them in their games. Whenever allies are allowed there's simply no point whatsoever playing anything else than the Imperium.
I just need confirmation now that you can ally with a faction from your own codex so that you get double the force organisation for no drawback whatsoever and then I'm done.
Quick people, start assembling your own custom castles that are so high that models deployed in them are unassaultable, have positions for tanks to be deployed in towers etc, provide 4+ cover and have line of sight on the whole field. 40K team fortress.
This crap just gets from bad to worse to disastrous. Not only did they introduce some absolutely broken and ridiculous rules which clearly aren't optional in GW's eyes they're actually trying to push everyone into using them in their games. Whenever allies are allowed there's simply no point whatsoever playing anything else than the Imperium.
I just need confirmation now that you can ally with a faction from your own codex so that you get double the force organisation for no drawback whatsoever and then I'm done.
As someone already said in this thread, detachments already exist in the 5th BRB -- allies might not be anything more than additional rules for Detachments. Given that this was a 2500pt game, it would be reasonable to use detachments to expand the FOC for both players.
Considering that both of them are absolutely awful army lists and that the designers and employees of Games Workshop promote a game that is supposed to be played drunk and with the intention of losing in bizarre and random and funny ways anything can happen.
H.B.M.C. wrote:I find it really odd that the Eldar cannot get Telekinesis.
It's hysterial, apparently Marines and IG are now the greatest psykers in the galactic universe!
Ya know I was thinking the same thing. My Eldar however dont seem to be as smart in the Psy world hehe.
The tape measure is cool but the first guy (and every person for that matter) that drops that on the table or my models is going to get punched in the whooty whoo....
Not sure this is up here yet, in a rush will mod myself if repeating lol
Blood of kittens...
- Hull Points are in, it is stated that Ghost Arks, Land Raiders, and Defilers each have 4 Hull Points apiece. Necrons have the ability to strip hull points for each roll of a 6 to penetrate/glance vehicles, making rapid-firing gauss weaponry very powerful at removing armour.
– Speaking of rapid fire, you can indeed move and fire once up to the full range of the weapon (it is explicitly stated that Fire Warriors can fire their weapons up to 30″ away), no confirmation on the 3x fire for Relentless at half range though.
– Assault moves are indeed 2d6″, but added together. Units equipped with jump packs can re-roll the dice to see how far they charge.
– The Rage USR gives you +2 attacks on the charge
– All flying monstrous creatures have the ability to fly 24″, doing something called a “Vector Strike”, which is a certain amount of automatic hits to a unit they fly over, at the base strength of the creature.
– Monstrous creatures’ attacks are explicitly AP 2
– Every army must select a “Warlord” or single general to lead the army, this leader gets an ability. They can choose between three different types of abilities, “Personal”, “Inspirational” or “Strategic”. They then roll on one of those charts to see what ability it is. The two examples given were a Grand Master giving all friendlies within 12″ his Ld of 10 (Inspirational), and a Chaos Lord being a scoring unit (Personal, the ability itself was called “Immovable Object”)
– Flyers are a specific type of unit, and it is somewhat unclear as to the rules for shooting at them. Either all units require a 6 to hit them (unless they have a special rule called Skyfire), or this is still the case but only if those flyers move flat-out. Monstrous creatures with the ability to Fly also get this “6-to-hit” rule.
– You have the ability to buy different terrain (it even has its own slot on the new FOC), e.g, you can buy a Bastion with a Quad-Gun (which has the aforementioned Skyfire USR). There seem to be quite a few options for what terrain you can buy, but naturally most of them are typically represented by terrain kits GW sells.
– Now we’re on the topic of the FOC, the rules for allies weren’t laid out specifically, but it is heavily implied that its not the same as in WHFB. They refer to allied units as “Detachments”, and there is an example of a player with a Chaos Space Marine force having some detachments of Chaos Daemons in his army. Basically, I was given the impression that it is far more common (and frequent) for a detachment from another 40k army to join a larger one, than it is for a Fantasy army to have Allies. Think more along the lines of the Storm of Magic rules for using TK, VC, or Daemons.
– Here’s a biggie: Units -can- go on Overwatch, giving them the ability to fire upon an enemy unit which charges them, but at BS 1. Eldar (and any other army with access to the Clairvoyance psychic power set) can use a psychic power to give a unit the ability to fire at their usual BS.
– Monstrous Creatures have access to a special “Smash” attack, allowing them to halve their attacks, but double their strength. It mentions that this gives them the ability to destroy tanks more easily.
– It’s somewhat hinted that AP will have some kind of affect against vehicles. This is because part of the Munitorum dice set includes vehicle damage dice. It specifies that some of the dice are “AP 1, AP 2, and AP 3 Damage dice”, or something to that effect.
– 4 Disciplines of Psychic powers, basically what we were thinking in terms of Clairvoyance, Biomancy, etc etc. There’s a chart near the back of the WD detailing which (if any) psychic disciplines a particular army gains access to. It’s interesting to see that a large amount of armies don’t have access to any at all. - Land Speeders have the special rule “Jink”, which gives them a 5+ save all the time, this changes to 4+ if they go flat out. (I’m reasonably sure all fast skimmers get this, I’m not sure whether it’s a USR or just a quality Fast Skimmers get)
-Also,models are taken from the front when they’re shot. Or, to put it another way, when a unit gets shot at, models from the part of the unit closest to the firer are removed first.
H.B.M.C. wrote:I find it really odd that the Eldar cannot get Telekinesis.
It's hysterial, apparently Marines and IG are now the greatest psykers in the galactic universe!
Ya know I was thinking the same thing. My Eldar however dont seem to be as smart in the Psy world hehe.
The tape measure is cool but the first guy (and every person for that matter) that drops that on the table or my models is going to get punched in the whooty whoo....
As pointed out on Warseer, one must remeber there are easily many other aspects above and beyond this.
The warp cost, for example - likely linked to Psyker level (a psyker lvl3 can cast 3 warp 1 abilities, or 1 warp 2 ability, and 1 warp 1 ability, or a single warp 3 ability). As an example it's possible Eldar treat all warp costs as Warp 1.
Past the chart we've seen, we know nothing - we can't really judge entire army capabilities on this.
Remember again - these abilites are choices in addition to the ones in the respective codex.
3 new dice sets? Are they going be required to play? I was hopign to get away with just buying the rulebook and keep using my green templates and normal dice.
MajorTom11 wrote:– Flyers are a specific type of unit, and it is somewhat unclear as to the rules for shooting at them. Either all units require a 6 to hit them (unless they have a special rule called Skyfire), or this is still the case but only if those flyers move flat-out. Monstrous creatures with the ability to Fly also get this “6-to-hit” rule.
Praxiss wrote:3 new dice sets? Are they going be required to play? I was hopign to get away with just buying the rulebook and keep using my green templates and normal dice.
You don't need any special dice to play the game beyond a scatter die really.. Even the artillery die from WFB is still a d6 (multiple die roll x2 and 6 = misfire)
Great googly moogly, that report! What it might mean..
On the one hand, I'm afraid armies are about to lose all style. As in:
-"Sure, my GK are strong, but they lack long-range artillery...except when I bring my allied IG baslisks, I mean!"
or
-"Yeah, us orks are all about CC and close-range dakka, but we sure lack antitank. Which is why we hired two DE Ravagers to crack the beakies' Land Raiders!"
It may also be a big shrug regarding codex balance. Vanilla Assault Marines suck? Eh, just borrow some from Blood angels. Hate your tacticals? Why, go for SW Grey Hunters instead!
It could also be a lot of fun if implemented cautiously. For instance, there really should be some advantage to NOT having a split force.
How the allies table works is a hige deal too. My fear is all Imperial armies being best buds and everyone else having maybe one or two sub-optimal choices.
N.I.B. wrote:You can buy a Bastion that drops from the sky, guns blazing?
I.. I don't know what to say.
It's because in the grim darkness of the near future there's a civil war in the Imperium. Allied forced of various Imperial armies take battle against eachother in their own cities shooting from bastion to bastion. Only the side that designs the most cunningly impregnable fortification can endure. The xenos and Chaos threat was eradicated after the Imperium finally came to understand that they can ally the troops from different factions to make undefeatable armies. The root cause behind the civil war is boredom.
Pre-measuring? Cool. I think pre-measuring in 40k should have always been there. You're telling me a Space Marine or a tank doesn't have a distance display in their HUD?
Random charge distances? Cool. Perfect way to counter pre-measuring and it actually seems more realistic especially if they add Snap Fire. That hail of bullets might have just been a little much and caused the chargers to keep their heads down just enough. Knowing exactly how far a bullet will go is understandable. Knowing exactly how far you can charge every. single. time. is not understandable. In 5th why can you Charge exactly 6 inches but if you chose to run it's random? It's essentially the same move! You have to make charges random if you allow pre-measuring.
Buying Buildings with points? Totally ignorable! Just don't play with those rules! We already do it with the building rules in 5th!
Random Terrain Effects? Same as the buildings, just ignore them!
Allies? Fun for casual games! All a Tournament needs to do is say NO ALLIES! and poof, no more Allies! They do it right now in 5th Ed in regards to buildings! It doesn't matter if they are dedicated FOC slots for them because you can just ignore them!
Hull Points? Thats cool! More realistic and you don't need to have a pen and paper to keep track because you would keep track of it like you do with multi-wound models by using counters or dice.
N.I.B. wrote:You can buy a Bastion that drops from the sky, guns blazing?
I.. I don't know what to say.
It's the next logical step from Land Raiders that drop out of the sky, guns blazing
The fortifications don't really bother me much, and I kind of like the ability to customize the battlefield a bit, as long as it stays fairly balanced. I'm curious to see how you deploy them. Hopefully you deploy them before either player starts putting regular models on the board.
MajorTom11 wrote:– Flyers are a specific type of unit, and it is somewhat unclear as to the rules for shooting at them. Either all units require a 6 to hit them (unless they have a special rule called Skyfire), or this is still the case but only if those flyers move flat-out. Monstrous creatures with the ability to Fly also get this “6-to-hit” rule.
Winged Hive Tyrants HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Yeah, and I wouldn't be surprised if to reap the benefits of 'Zoom' they must forgo all shooting attacks and cannot engage in close combat. All they can do is Vector Strike. So they will either be able to contribute offensively, or stay alive. Also we don't know if the 1D3+1 'Vector Strikes' will benefit from AP2 and 2D6 pen against vehicles. Actually, for all we know MC's might have lost their +2D6 to pen vehicles, in substitue for 'Smash!' (half attacks at double strenght). Which in the end would be a huge nerf to MC's. At this point flying MC's sounds like a poor man's Necron Overlord on Command Barge (with mandatory broken Mindshackles).
N.I.B. wrote:You can buy a Bastion that drops from the sky, guns blazing?
I.. I don't know what to say.
It's the next logical step from Land Raiders that drop out of the sky, guns blazing
The fortifications don't really bother me much, and I kind of like the ability to customize the battlefield a bit, as long as it stays fairly balanced. I'm curious to see how you deploy them. Hopefully you deploy them before either player starts putting regular models on the board.
Fortifications don't bother me either. They seem to be fairly point-intensive. And they are actually quite easy to explain: someone just took a strong point right before the battle and reinforced it with weapons/walls/whatever. Even Nids know enough to do that.
Though I can foresee some HQs (IG maybe?) that are famous for fortifying everything Stalingrad,-style and either get extra fortifications or buy them at a discount.
MajorTom11 wrote:– Flyers are a specific type of unit, and it is somewhat unclear as to the rules for shooting at them. Either all units require a 6 to hit them (unless they have a special rule called Skyfire), or this is still the case but only if those flyers move flat-out. Monstrous creatures with the ability to Fly also get this “6-to-hit” rule.
Winged Hive Tyrants HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Yeah, and I wouldn't be surprised if to reap the benefits of 'Zoom' they must forgo all shooting attacks and cannot engage in close combat. All they can do is Vector Strike. So they will either be able to contribute offensively, or stay alive. Also we don't know if the 1D3+1 'Vector Strikes' will benefit from AP2 and 2D6 pen against vehicles. Actually, for all we know MC's might have lost their +2D6 to pen vehicles, in substitue for 'Smash!' (half attacks at double strenght). Which in the end would be a huge nerf to MC's. At this point flying MC's sounds like a poor man's Necron Overlord on Command Barge (with mandatory broken Mindshackles).
On the upside, they mentioned in that battle report that FnP was a 5+ and was ignored by instant death wounds. There was no mention of AP 1-2 or armor ignoring weapons bypassing it, so there is a possibility that catalyst might be a little more useful for TMCs.
Purchasing terrain for points is a fantastic idea, love it. Already one in most IA scenarios, they give 'defenders' less army points than 'attackers' but a crap load of defensive fortifications. Makes for some really fun and diverse games, which will only be better now that you can buy and customise your own fortifications. Definitely something that will require a bit of pre-match chat with your opponent so you can create an exciting mission rather than a lame stalemate.
Allies are rad, opens up a huge number of options for diversifying different armies (proper traitor Guard!, old-school Daemonhunters! CSM/Daemons again!) and makes the mage a hell of a lot more fun by adding in that unexpected factor. Games get predictable when you know you are facing Marines, or Eldar or Imperial Guard etc but now you will have to adapt tactics on the fly when you are faced with a Guardsman gunline covering the advance of several squads of Terminators, or deep striking Obliterators hitting your unguarded flanks as you try to out-maneuvre your Dark Eldar enemy.
Considering that both of them are absolutely awful army lists and that the designers and employees of Games Workshop promote a game that is supposed to be played drunk and with the intention of losing in bizarre and random and funny ways anything can happen.
Oh come now, the lists aren't that bad, they are just not totally optimised, some people do like to play diverse lists where evey unit doesnt have a Powerfist and Meltagun, admittedly the stormtroopers and veterans are a bit under-equipped and i would have given the chaos lord better gear but there isnt anything there that really stands out, especially considering some of the WD battle report lists i have seen over the years.
Eldar will probably get X number of new powers for every codex power they buy or will get better versions in a new codex, people need to stop behaving like Chicken Littles already.
I have some thoughts to contribute on the topic of random charge distances. These come from the moderate amount of games I've played of 8th ed. Fantasy.
1.) I think the 2D6" charge distance is a buff, although I'm not sure it's enough of a buff to counteract the rumored wound allocation system (casualties taken from the front). There will be times you roll low, and don't make the charge, but they very fact that you have a non-trivial chance to make a long charge will add to the threat value of your chargers. No longer will heavy fire units be able to say "I'm outside of 12, no need to move, unload everything". They'll have to take into account that there's a real chance that at 14" or 15", they'll still get hit by assaulters, and keep moving (cutting down on firepower).
2.) I've seen a few people mentioning the 8th ed. system of assault as better, because there is a flat movement minimum plus a random element, and this is better than the completely random 2D6" charge rumored in 6th. This is a silly complaint, because in 40k, you already get the 6" of movement in the movement phase, so there is a minimum charge distance.
3.) If psykic powers go the way of 8th, with the "big 6" super spells. That could be frustrating, but it would also destroy the validity of deathstar units in one go. Opinions may vary one whether that is a good thing.
TechMarine1 wrote:So...why, exactly, can't a space marine librarian divine the future?
He probably can, just not in any way that is meaningful on the battlefield (e.g. through dreams, hallucinatory visions, etc. - not the sort of thing that's useful in combat). That's kind of the whole "thing" for Farseers: that they can cast a few runes and have a gander at a few strands of fate, all at a whim; something a Space Marine is probably not trained to do.
N.I.B. wrote:You can buy a Bastion that drops from the sky, guns blazing?
I.. I don't know what to say.
It's the next logical step from Land Raiders that drop out of the sky, guns blazing
The fortifications don't really bother me much, and I kind of like the ability to customize the battlefield a bit, as long as it stays fairly balanced. I'm curious to see how you deploy them. Hopefully you deploy them before either player starts putting regular models on the board.
Fortifications don't bother me either. They seem to be fairly point-intensive. And they are actually quite easy to explain: someone just took a strong point right before the battle and reinforced it with weapons/walls/whatever.
It's the idea I have a problem with. The idea of a thousand ton of stone dropping from space with pin-point precision, takes no damage and immediately start to shoot stuff. I rather have a building crash on top of the enemy.
Updated tyhe rumor tracking thread with the WD confirmations. Looks like the person who posted the BoK rumors earlier was just a C&P from someone else.
I doubt you'll see it in a competitive army. First you have to give up your codex.powers (which if you ask any BA, SW, GK etc... they're already happy with). Second you have to roll on a chart and hope you even get what you want. Then you have to roll again to determine a result which may not be useful. Then I'm sure all codexes will at least get a chance to nullify all powers so that's ANOTHER check against it. Sure its deadly when it works, but the chances aren't great.
I'm very disappointed though. The leaks basically don't tell us anything. Its all flash. Its like showing that a new car has backup cameras, heated seats, cooled cupholders etc; but doesn't tell us its engine, gas mileage, or cost. I guess the only way to know what's REALLY changed is to wait till the 30th
Sorry if I missed this, has there been any specifics at all regarding the restrictions on allies (besides the aforementioned HQ/2 Troops unlock).
Although I hated playing Clan War, any army could take allies from any other list- with a percentage increase depending on the relationship between the factions. So, you could use that cool unit you wanted, but you had to decide if it was worth that 20% increase.
I suspect it will end up being similar to the Codex:Witch Hunters allies allocation scheme though.
N.I.B. wrote:You can buy a Bastion that drops from the sky, guns blazing?
I.. I don't know what to say.
It's the next logical step from Land Raiders that drop out of the sky, guns blazing
The fortifications don't really bother me much, and I kind of like the ability to customize the battlefield a bit, as long as it stays fairly balanced. I'm curious to see how you deploy them. Hopefully you deploy them before either player starts putting regular models on the board.
Fortifications don't bother me either. They seem to be fairly point-intensive. And they are actually quite easy to explain: someone just took a strong point right before the battle and reinforced it with weapons/walls/whatever.
It's the idea I have a problem with. The idea of a thousand ton of stone dropping from space with pin-point precision, takes no damage and immediately start to shoot stuff. I rather have a building crash on top of the enemy.
Well, like Sephyr said, I don't think it's representing an air-dropped bastion. It's representing a structure that has been there all along, that you have occupied, manned, and supplied.
Biophysical wrote:I have some thoughts to contribute on the topic of random charge distances. These come from the moderate amount of games I've played of 8th ed. Fantasy.
1.) I think the 2D6" charge distance is a buff, although I'm not sure it's enough of a buff to counteract the rumored wound allocation system (casualties taken from the front). There will be times you roll low, and don't make the charge, but they very fact that you have a non-trivial chance to make a long charge will add to the threat value of your chargers. No longer will heavy fire units be able to say "I'm outside of 12, no need to move, unload everything". They'll have to take into account that there's a real chance that at 14" or 15", they'll still get hit by assaulters, and keep moving (cutting down on firepower).
2.) I've seen a few people mentioning the 8th ed. system of assault as better, because there is a flat movement minimum plus a random element, and this is better than the completely random 2D6" charge rumored in 6th. This is a silly complaint, because in 40k, you already get the 6" of movement in the movement phase, so there is a minimum charge distance.
I disagree with the 2D6" being a buff.
I feel that the chance of your unit rolling low and being stranded in the open outweighs a potentially longer assault range (whilst the average is only 7", compared to the current 6" anyway).
I like your idea of making units more than 12" away have to think about their options, but I don't think the action of sitting and shooting will change. I believe the chance that you'll move your assault unit into Rapid Fire or counter-charge range, only for them to be unable to charge is too big a loss compared to the potentially increased charge range.
Arguably, I shouldn't really be complaining as a Space Wolf player, as the buffs to rapid fire and [arguable] nerf to assaulting benefits my Wolves, who receive a charge, rather than commit one. This will be even nastier if Counter-charge can combine with Snap Fire...
I'm not really sure why I torture myself reading rumors, who knows where the game is really going... That being said, my biggest issue right now is allies. I can deal with pretty much everything that has been put forward, random charge distances and the like wouldn't really bother me. Allies (assuming it's a standard part of the game, not some sort of optional detachment rule) is so completely open to abuse, especially if special character's special rules affect allies. Example: As a lover of Papa Nurgle, I've long dreamed of taking Epidemius alongside my Death Guard. Putting aside that the game is crazy un-balanced, every army is designed to have strengths and weaknesses, which allies completely breaks.
Honestly, I'm just really excited to see what REALLY happens with 6th. I've more or less given up on 40k for the time being, and I'm hoping that a new edition (as well as a new 'dex for my beloved CSM) will get me playing again.
IronNerd wrote:I'm not really sure why I torture myself reading rumors, who knows where the game is really going... That being said, my biggest issue right now is allies. I can deal with pretty much everything that has been put forward, random charge distances and the like wouldn't really bother me. Allies (assuming it's a standard part of the game, not some sort of optional detachment rule) is so completely open to abuse, especially if special character's special rules affect allies. Example: As a lover of Papa Nurgle, I've long dreamed of taking Epidemius alongside my Death Guard. Putting aside that the game is crazy un-balanced, every army is designed to have strengths and weaknesses, which allies completely breaks.
Honestly, I'm just really excited to see what REALLY happens with 6th. I've more or less given up on 40k for the time being, and I'm hoping that a new edition (as well as a new 'dex for my beloved CSM) will get me playing again.
That's pretty much where I'm at as well. Allies makes me nervous as hell (mainly because the two armies I play with are the two most likely to be left out in the cold by it).
In 5th you didn't know if your charge was going to make it since there was no pre-measuring. People got good at eyeballing it, but there was always the possibility that your charge was going to leave you out in the open.
If pre-measuring is in then you actually take away a random element of the game, so by making the charge 2D6 it adds randomness back to the game. It doesn't really add that much additional randomness IMO.
One thing I've noticed is that the rules for Warlocks states that they do not need to take psychic tests and that their powers are permanently available. Doubtless this will be FAQ'd, but until then, surely RAW Warlocks may always use these new powers without a test?
Maelstrom808 wrote:Well, like Sephyr said, I don't think it's representing an air-dropped bastion. It's representing a structure that has been there all along, that you have occupied, manned, and supplied.
Ah, I see. I misread the battle report, 'as it arrives from reserves' apparently referred to an enemy unit.
Just Dave wrote:
I disagree with the 2D6" being a buff.
I feel that the chance of your unit rolling low and being stranded in the open outweighs a potentially longer assault range (whilst the average is only 7", compared to the current 6" anyway).
As a Tyranid player, it's a huge buff. Considering more than 50% of my current charges are 1D6" (through terrain), as I have crap armour saves and no offensive grenades, I will welcome 2D6" with open arms.
See, I feel like some of you are complaining about all the wrong stuff.
Sure, the terrain and allies rules will be problematic. It'll create some interesting store gaming conversations. But they're easy enough to ban in your clubs or events. I just don't see them having a major impact on the way a lot of vets play the game.
What's disappointing to me is that pancake edition showed a GW willing to address the creaky core of their game -- the basic move-shoot-assault mechanics. And all that stuff just kinda rolled back with the final 6th edition ruleset. Pancake still needed work, but the approach they took was a breath of fresh air. The final 6th edition ruleset..well, it's just smelling a little musty to me. They've tried to cover the mold smell by squirting some perfume in the air (psychics, terrain, allies), but the mold's still there.
I'm sure I'll have fun playing 6th edition, but it really feels like a squandered opportunity to me.
Has anyone read anything about reserves? At this point I'm guessing they're staying more or less the same as in 5th.
Maelstrom808 wrote:Well, like Sephyr said, I don't think it's representing an air-dropped bastion. It's representing a structure that has been there all along, that you have occupied, manned, and supplied.
Exactly.
There is nothing "dropping out of the sky", and it is one piece of terrain per player per game.
Dr Mathias wrote:Sorry if I missed this, has there been any specifics at all regarding the restrictions on allies (besides the aforementioned HQ/2 Troops unlock).
No one has posted any details on how it works. the posted Battle report army lists do not stick to 1 HQ and 2 Troops for the allied army though...
N.I.B. wrote:As a Tyranid player, it's a huge buff. Considering more than 50% of my current charges are 1D6" (through terrain), as I have crap armour saves and no offensive grenades, I will welcome 2D6" with open arms.
I'd be amazed if assaulting through terrain is done the same way as assaulting over open ground. I'd guess its 2D6" in the open or 1D6" if assaulting through cover, just like it is now.
nkelsch wrote:Nice, I don't have to buy the spell deck! Orks apparently still suck at psychic powers!
My Hive Tyrant saved your Weirdboy a seat at the kids table.
This is odd. It limits them to their book-based powers, but I can't see why orks who love fire so much wouldn't get some pyromancy (finally an orky melta!), and nids are ALL about biomancy!
4oursword wrote:One thing I've noticed is that the rules for Warlocks states that they do not need to take psychic tests and that their powers are permanently available. Doubtless this will be FAQ'd, but until then, surely RAW Warlocks may always use these new powers without a test?
Doubtful,that they will be able to use any of the Psychic Power cards as they do not have the Psyker Special rule in their current codex.
N.I.B. wrote:As a Tyranid player, it's a huge buff. Considering more than 50% of my current charges are 1D6" (through terrain), as I have crap armour saves and no offensive grenades, I will welcome 2D6" with open arms.
I'd be amazed if assaulting through terrain is done the same way as assaulting over open ground. I'd guess its 2D6" in the open or 1D6" if assaulting through cover like it is now.
And it was rarely the 1d6" that bugged me about assaulting through terrain, it was the going last.
gorgon wrote:
Sure, the terrain and allies rules will be problematic. It'll create some interesting store gaming conversations. But they're easy enough to ban in your clubs or events. I just don't see them having a major impact on the way a lot of vets play the game.
You know you're just cracking into an age old can of worms here... A lot of people (myself included) don't *want* to ban a part of the core rules. I'm playing a game with a standardized rule set for a reason, it assures me that I get the same game against anyone I play across the globe. It's the same deal with fan codices and the like... Good, bad, or indifferent, I'm going to play the game by the official rules or I'm not going to play, simple as that. I think this point has been argued ad nauseum, so I'll stop now.
So far i'm a bit confused why the space marine factions have the most lore for psykers, except the really psychic ones?????
next you GW my tyranids should be able to Allie to Imperial guard as least to represent genestealer cults!
Next i really don't mind random charges to much as we get per-measuring and my opponents normally hide in terrain as well =)
hopefully the psychic powers are decent for my tyranids to use them, as i really hope to have some sort of movement base power to force people out of cover so i could charge them =D
and finally buildings, i love the concept but i feel like this is to sell their models......which are imperial only, i wonder if i build a bunch of ork stuff would it be fair? or do you think my local games workshop will say to only use there terrain models?
Is there any chance the whole Allies thing is an overreaction, and it's basically a 'rule' in the same way Multiple Detachments and such have been in various versions? I remember using that rule maybe once in 3rd edition... It was marked as a rule that required opponent's consent (so out for most tournament play) and was little more than some vague guidelines anyway, as I remember.
nkelsch wrote:Nice, I don't have to buy the spell deck! Orks apparently still suck at psychic powers!
My Hive Tyrant saved your Weirdboy a seat at the kids table.
Got room there for my Overlord?
No, but he can go out the back door and smoke a cigarette with my Overlord. That's where the kids that are too cool for psychic powers hang out. I think the Archon is bringing a bottle of vodka that he stole from his dad's liquor cabinet.
Testify wrote:I thought assaulting through difficult terrain was a normal difficult terrain test, i.e. 2D6 and pick the highest?
You're right, I'm not sure why but I was thinking of running Still, at the moment it gives you a value of 1-6" rather than 2-12", so it wouldn't be a buff.
It could be that open ground is 2D6" added together and difficult terrain is 2D6" using the dice with the highest (or maybe lowest) value.
Therion wrote:Considering that both of them are absolutely awful army lists and that the designers and employees of Games Workshop promote a game that is supposed to be played drunk and with the intention of losing in bizarre and random and funny ways anything can happen.
That's hardly surprising. GW sample lists and BatReps lists always consist of units that might as well have been chosen at random, picked to show as much "stuff" as possible rather than for a cohesive strategy. Remember that for years they had Dev and Havoc units with multiple different heavy weapon types.
But do you notice something about the Chaos army?
Heavy Support: 1. Chaos Predator 2. Defiler 3. Land Raider
Then... Heavy Support again, for a fourth time, with the allied Soul Grinder. So that's four HS slots thanks to allies. Hmm...
Therion wrote:Considering that both of them are absolutely awful army lists and that the designers and employees of Games Workshop promote a game that is supposed to be played drunk and with the intention of losing in bizarre and random and funny ways anything can happen.
That's hardly surprising. GW sample lists and BatReps lists always consist of units that might as well have been chosen at random, picked to show as much stuff rather than for a cohesive strategy. Remember that for years they had Dev and Havoc units with multiple different heavy weapon types.
But do you notice something about the Chaos army?
Heavy Support:
1. Chaos Predator
2. Defiler
3. Land Raider
Then... Heavy Support again, for a fourth time, with the allied Soul Grinder. So that's four HS slots thanks to allies. Hmm...
Charax wrote:
3 HQ slots as well, seems like ally FOC slots are in addition to the primary force.
Makes you wonder what the downside is
I'm betting the two forces act independently. No benefitting form transports, special rules, etc. No benefitting from the "Warlord" rules of the main force. No separate "Warlord" for the allies....
First time I have wanted to buy a White Dwarf in a while. Seeing the allied Chaos army has our household in full celebration mode, not having to wait for Legions or other nonsense to get our real Daemons back is awesome!!!
Charax wrote:
3 HQ slots as well, seems like ally FOC slots are in addition to the primary force.
Makes you wonder what the downside is
I'm betting the two forces act independently. No benefitting form transports, special rules, etc. No benefitting from the "Warlord" rules of the main force. No separate "Warlord" for the allies....
still those sides aren't especially "down" but hell ive always been in favour of allies in any case, I genarally only play with firends and have always allowed acceptable allies in 40k games, if your playing with the kind of people who are likely to abuse these new rules, you have to think should you really be playing with them at all?
This looks really good, the idea of 'Psychic power cards' means my Chaos Sorcerers and Daemon Princes may not be as weak as they are now in the Psychic power department!
Can't believe I have to remind everyone of this but... Keep in mind that WD Battle Reports often do not actually showcase the rules as written. I wouldn't use the lists or BR to try to predict anything about 6th.
Charax wrote:
3 HQ slots as well, seems like ally FOC slots are in addition to the primary force.
Makes you wonder what the downside is
Scottywan82 wrote:
I'm betting the two forces act independently. No benefitting form transports, special rules, etc. No benefitting from the "Warlord" rules of the main force. No separate "Warlord" for the allies....
still those sides aren't especially "down" but hell ive always been in favour of allies in any case, I genarally only play with firends and have always allowed acceptable allies in 40k games, if your playing with the kind of people who are likely to abuse these new rules, you have to think should you really be playing with them at all?
Well, we're not sure how much of a perk it is wit those Warlord rules, nor if I'm right about the only limitations. There could be others I don't know about.
So... about Fortifications. I know I'm most likely wrong on this, but does anyone feel that GW has seen Battlefront's 'Battlefield in a Box' series (and by expansion, buying Fortifications for lists in-game) and said, 'Hey, we can do that, too'?
tuiman wrote:
Untill the new codex arrives shortly after 6th, and they get nerfed
More likely Noise Marines get buffed I think.
I agree with you.
I have ALWAYS thought that is how it should have been. Keeping all those guys still just to shoot a ML, please. If I had an assault rifle in a fortified building I would get at least two shots off through the scope before moving, and one while moving.
Thousand Sons are the Bolt-gun Champions, improving how they are used is buffing up the Thousand Sons. I don't see them used much and this will make Chaos players what to buy them and shift their lists for the better shooter.
Thinking like GW, Thousands are metal, so they cost a ton more. Meaning GW makes more money. Tons of new tank rules will shift players back to infantry meaning, more infantry on the table, more money. The tank markers might be incorporated but it won't be necessary. Kinda like how the much older starter box had trees and ruins. Maybe GW will put tank markers in the 6th Ed Starter box instead.
I miss allies rules. I got into 40K with 2nd edition when I had a small Space Marine force, which then had a Battle Sister contingent that grew into a full army, and an Eldar contingent that grew into a new army. In 3rd I started over with a Chaos force that went on to have Kroot allies
I *love* that allies rules are back, and that they don't seem to have any crippling downsides. Allies encourage the building of new armies, which in turn net GW more money, and they mean people don't have to wait a huge amount of time for new stuff because they can add new units to an allied force when it gets updated.
I like the ally rules from a modeling perspective. Sure it may horrible abuse the metabase, but I am excited for the possibilities of small 1HQ/1Troop additions.
Has there been a link to an ally matrix or something? I haven't been able to find a link, and scrolling through 30 pages while I'm at work...
Also, I too am having trouble with the ally rules as a concept. In addition to my IoM armies, I field Tyranids and Orks, neither of whom would have any obvious allies. It just feels like those armies (with Orks being my focus lately) get a whole lot less out of what we've "seen" of 6th...
streamdragon wrote:Has there been a link to an ally matrix or something? I haven't been able to find a link, and scrolling through 30 pages while I'm at work...
streamdragon wrote:
Also, I too am having trouble with the ally rules as a concept. In addition to my IoM armies, I field Tyranids and Orks, neither of whom would have any obvious allies. It just feels like those armies (with Orks being my focus lately) get a whole lot less out of what we've "seen" of 6th...
I wouldn't worry about it. This is GW we're talking about. If they've got to twist the fluff to give them an advantage in the game (and in sales), you'll probably see at least Orks allying with someone. I'd even put money down on Tyranids getting at least 1 ally.
Most people are basing it off of an Allies matrix that was in a somewhat recent doubles tournament pack on their website. But nobody really knows so far what is actually in the new book.
streamdragon wrote:Has there been a link to an ally matrix or something? I haven't been able to find a link, and scrolling through 30 pages while I'm at work...
Not yet.
There is also a matrix in the back of the apocalypse rule book that might be give you a rough idea. Obviously that's rather old and it's completely possible that it will be different in the 6th rulebook though.
streamdragon wrote:
Also, I too am having trouble with the ally rules as a concept. In addition to my IoM armies, I field Tyranids and Orks, neither of whom would have any obvious allies. It just feels like those armies (with Orks being my focus lately) get a whole lot less out of what we've "seen" of 6th...
I wouldn't worry about it. This is GW we're talking about. If they've got to twist the fluff to give them an advantage in the game (and in sales), you'll probably see at least Orks allying with someone.
Orks "allying" with people isn't actually unheard of. They'll work as mercenaries for shiny things/guns--and then use those after the battle to beat you upside the head.
I'd even put money down on Tyranids getting at least 1 ally.
I wouldn't. The only way you'll see something even remotely close to Tyranids "allying" is that old method of "Two enemies fighting in the same time/place".
I like this one a bit more. While there's a lot of rehashed art, there's also some fabulous new artwork displayed.
While I like the artwork, this is a lot of buildup for just an announcement. Who ever heard of announcements for an announcement? Wouldn't it be simpler to just say the followign items will be on sale on the 23rd and do one big announcement on or before that day?
I'd even put money down on Tyranids getting at least 1 ally.
I wouldn't. The only way you'll see something even remotely close to Tyranids "allying" is that old method of "Two enemies fighting in the same time/place".
Genestealer cults exist in Human, Ork and Tau societies, and they fight alongside Tyranids in the early stages of an invasion (before they get nommed for biofuel)
Not that I imagine for one moment GW will actually remember this, or acknowledge it in rules form
Do you know what I find funny? Even with all this leaked stuff floating around the forums GW is still releasing teaser videos. Here is the link to the newest video. Enjoy
I'd even put money down on Tyranids getting at least 1 ally.
I wouldn't. The only way you'll see something even remotely close to Tyranids "allying" is that old method of "Two enemies fighting in the same time/place".
Genestealer cults exist in Human, Ork and Tau societies, and they fight alongside Tyranids in the early stages of an invasion (before they get nommed for biofuel)
Not that I imagine for one moment GW will actually remember this, or acknowledge it in rules form
GW remembers Genestealer Cults.
It's just they likely remember how silly they were as well, with limos on the battlefield and fat guys in chairs commanding mutants with sunglasses on.
H.B.M.C. wrote: But do you notice something about the Chaos army?
Heavy Support: 1. Chaos Predator 2. Defiler 3. Land Raider
Then... Heavy Support again, for a fourth time, with the allied Soul Grinder. So that's four HS slots thanks to allies. Hmm...
3 HQ slots as well, seems like ally FOC slots are in addition to the primary force.
Makes you wonder what the downside is
Probably just the annual price adjustments to the models' costs.
H.B.M.C. wrote:And people used to bitch about Iron Warriors.
L-O-fething-L!
And they had good reason AT THAT TIME. It's not valid to bring up decade old complaints against a build using a codex and rules two editions out of date and compare it to what you don't even currently have yet. I personally don't like the introduction of allies to the normal/standard 40k game but, like other gamers, I'll simply have to get used to it.
Synister_Intent wrote:Do you know what I find funny? Even with all this leaked stuff floating around the forums GW is still releasing teaser videos. Here is the link to the newest video. Enjoy
Do you know what I find funny? Even with the video already posted only half a page above you, you still think you were being clever. Here is the link to the guy who beat you to it. Enjoy!
It's just they likely remember how silly they were as well, with limos on the battlefield and fat guys in chairs commanding mutants with sunglasses on.
Careful... thems fightin' words up in Canada with MajorTom!
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