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Post by: Da Boss
It sounds great. Multipart is by no means a deal breaker for me, and I know it's more popular with a lot of people so I think it's the right idea.
Also think making a really solid "box" is a good plan.
Really excited for this, though I just recently bought an engagement ring and now I'm moving house, so I'm actually cool with it not coming out on KS for a few months, because I need to put money aside for it again (my savings took a hit recently).
42013
Post by: Sinful Hero
 tre manor wrote:
I am in fact communicating with Dust Studios for the production on this project as well as the studio that handles a few other big name plastic lines. There will never be a mold line crossing a face on an RBG figure. Ever. I will take very special pains to make sure of this.
In fact I am trying to design the figures in such a way that parting lines will either be in areas where they will nto be easily visible or VERY easy to clean off. I am very well aware of the pains peopel have with PVC mold lines and I will take every effort I can to mitigate this.
Scale...... I am really nto sure that increasing the scale is really the right thing to do. However I DO see the need to change the way I do certain things to make the figure more painter friendly. CRoss compatibility is really not even a notion I have in the design for this game. It is going to be entirely it's own thing. this is nto fantasy with a new lick of paint this is a whole new sub genre with fantasy as it's root. Much in the same way that Kingdom Death of a new sub genre of Fantasy and Relic Knights is a new sub genre of Sci Fi. I do not mean to say that thsi will be SO far out of left field that you could not find uses for the figures in other games I am just saying that you will not look at these figures and think " Oh! That woudl make a great Dwarf Proxy or that woudl make a great Norse Barbarian proxy " instead you might look at these figures and think " Oh that would make a great primitive alien. " or " This will make a great Atlantean barbarian. " In some of these instances scale won't even be a consideration ( Mutants, Demons, and Lizardmen particularly ).
But just to allay any fears I am using the Zombiecide 1 figures as scale reference for the normal human proportions.
Detail in plastics........ This is something I have always harped on and been very very leery of through the metoeric rise of Kickstarter. I think that the main problem lies in design where many artists simply have not ( until recently ) had enough experience sculpting for plastic production to know how to avoid problems due to the process itself. I think that exaggerating certain features of the face ( part between the lips, depth of the cheeks from the brow and nose bridge, cut of the eyes etc ) I can avoid "nofacitis ". I have seen PVC figures with pretty damned good detail even if the detail is not as sharp as metal.
As for the figures themselves......Well some figures will be multi part kits which are goign to made in such a way as to allow people to pose and customize their forces. This has always been a goal here. I want people to tell their own stories with their war bands. I want people to look at warband creation in this game the same way a role player looks at character creation or party creation in a role playing game. Thsi will make balancing the system very difficult but I think it will be very rewarding to do so.
So a lot of the figures will be " kits " where people will be able to interchange heads, torsos ( with the upper arms attached ) hand options ( right and left forearms with weapons in hand ) legs and certain armor pieces and decorations ( shoulder armour, head dress elements, various decorative elements) etc to make their forces a bti more unique and personal.
There will usually be two or three different troop types with each of the types havign cross compatible parts. Obviously there will have to be some kits that will not interchange with ALL parts ( SOME heavy weapon fighters won;t be able to make use of all elements for example ) but or the most part all parts withint he same faction will interchange across that faction. So you could take a set of unarmoured legs and pair them with a heavy armoured torso, a bare head , one heavy armoured weapon arm on the right and an unarmored shield arm on the left and a particular back standard that might have a special game rule applied to it to grant it's wearer immunity to fire or the ability to safely leap the height of 5 men up and 5 men across once or twice per game or for a specific cost of action points ( magical jump pack ). Or maybe you give the same figure a demon mask that grants him a breath weapon attack or an aura of fear which reduces his enemies morale or melee skill?
These effects will be represented in card form BTW for some insight into how the game works. These cards will be " played " as expendable resources.
Aaaaaaaaanyhoo............. Yes there will be multipart kits to allow for customization in varying degrees. Some figures will be highly customizable and some will be less customizable ( heroes and special characters etc ) and then there will be some figures which will be single piece. These will usually be the cannon fodder figures or less prominent unit types, cultist acolytes and the Piteous Beset ( lesser undead ) for the Undead faction spring to mind.
Any multipart figures will always be fitted for easy assembly with plug an socket fittings, ball and socket fittings, piloted pin points etc.
Harder plastic weapons...... Again this is entirely possible but may ultimately depend on funding. Those harder plastic bits have to cast from a more expensive tool.
I am trying to build all costs in to the price though.
I am going to keep the price as low as possible. At first, the starter set might not seem like a fantastic deal ( I am figuring about $5.50 per figure in the starter set initially ) but if the funding allows the deal will get progressively better as more backers join in. I am going to plan that most stretch goals will add to the starter set with a very few add-on sets coming after the starter sets have been well built up and made a better value per figure. It will really all come down to the number of backers who join in. That said I am not planning this to need 1000's of backers to succeed. Right now, based on my estimates and what I plan to produce maybe 900 backers total will fund everything I have planned.
Also there WILL be early birds pledge levels. As much as I have bemoaned the practice I have come to understand it's benefit and usefulness. These early birds will offer a substantial discount on each set but will be very strictly limited and will of course grow in value with the development of the campaign.
The starter sets will include initially:
1-3 " masters " ( these are the leaders )
1-2 " greater " monster minions ( Specialists )
6-8 " lesser " minions ( grunts ) *
And if funding allows will expand with;
2-4 " lesser " monster minions
1-2 Heroes ( auxiliary leaders )*
2-4 additional alternate " lesser minions ( more grunts )*
2-4 " Greater " minions ( auxiliary specialists )*
*modularly fitted for customization.
Each figure will have a character card included with it describing it's basic game rules. There would be other decks produced for items, spells, powers, effects, events, terrain, scenarios, etc. Each faction starter would also include a few faction specific item, spell, power, event cards.
So the intial barbarian starter might look like;
Shaman x 1
Demon Summons x 1
Lesser Warriors x 6 ( sculpt a + b + x 3 )
and expand as such;
SG 1 + Lesser demons summons x 2
SG 2 + Lesser Warrior Hero x 1
SG 3 + Lesser warrior alt sculpt c
SG 4 + Berserkers x 2 ( sculpt a )
SG 5 + Lesser warriors alt sculpt d x 2 ( 8 total figures per set )
SG 6 + Berserker hero
Each Stretch Goal would also expand ALL factions in funding. So no one would be sat waiting for " their turn " at a stretch goal.
THIS IS ALL STILL A WORK IN PROGRESS based on estimates without the actual figures on hand so these plans are subject to change but this is what I am planning right now based on months of research.
So anyway I need to get back to work. These figures won;t sculpt themselves!
Cheers Yall!
Tre'
Copying over for the next page.
Just be sure to give us plenty of warning about the early birds. And no one else. 
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Post by: streetsamurai
Sounds absolutely great
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Post by: Da Boss
One question I was just mulling over: I see a lot of controversy swirling around DUST on the boards. I'm not very up to speed about it at all, but are they the same manufacturer Tre is considering? Are they reliable?
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Post by: Wehrkind
I am down for this! I look forward to seeing some concepts.
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Post by: tre manor
Dust is in fact one of the studios I have been in discussions with on this. I am very confident that they are up to this. DS handles many high profile projects and have only had difficulties with the Babylon project. Without knowing any more than what has been made public about that situation I can only surmise that it was an isolated incident stemming from a misunderstanding that had a LOT of money attached to it.
I am however in discussions with three different firms on this project so nothing is yet set in stone.
Quality and reliability are my chief concerns followed by cost.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
 Da Boss wrote:One question I was just mulling over: I see a lot of controversy swirling around DUST on the boards. I'm not very up to speed about it at all, but are they the same manufacturer Tre is considering? Are they reliable?
As a manufacturer I'd have confidence in them (they make stuff for a variety of other people too) and have no doubt about their financial stability,
It's their game that's had the issues
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Post by: RiTides
tre manor wrote:In fact I am trying to design the figures in such a way that parting lines will either be in areas where they will nto be easily visible or VERY easy to clean off. I am very well aware of the pains peopel have with PVC mold lines and I will take every effort I can to mitigate this.
Scale...... I am really nto sure that increasing the scale is really the right thing to do. However I DO see the need to change the way I do certain things to make the figure more painter friendly
In some of these instances scale won't even be a consideration ( Mutants, Demons, and Lizardmen particularly ).
But just to allay any fears I am using the Zombiecide 1 figures as scale reference for the normal human proportions.
I've pulled a few quotes regarding scale from your post, Tre, but I wanted to ask about the last line in particular.
Do you have the Zombicide Season 1 humans (I assume yes) and do you think the detail there will work for your creations in that scale? I ask because they are a little smaller, and certainly things like their swords and the like are not up to your usual criteria ( imo). The detail as you've noted is softer, too, and many of these figures do not have as much detail as yours usually do. I would note that the latest Season 3 greens have a lot of detail, it will be interesting to see how those translate into PVC.
Also, regarding this:
tre manor wrote:Detail in plastics........ This is something I have always harped on and been very very leery of through the metoeric rise of Kickstarter. I think that the main problem lies in design where many artists simply have not ( until recently ) had enough experience sculpting for plastic production to know how to avoid problems due to the process itself. I think that exaggerating certain features of the face ( part between the lips, depth of the cheeks from the brow and nose bridge, cut of the eyes etc ) I can avoid "nofacitis ". I have seen PVC figures with pretty damned good detail even if the detail is not as sharp as metal.
As for the figures themselves......Well some figures will be multi part kits which are goign to made in such a way as to allow people to pose and customize their forces. This has always been a goal here. I want people to tell their own stories with their war bands. I want people to look at warband creation in this game the same way a role player looks at character creation or party creation in a role playing game. Thsi will make balancing the system very difficult but I think it will be very rewarding to do so.
So a lot of the figures will be " kits " where people will be able to interchange heads, torsos ( with the upper arms attached ) hand options ( right and left forearms with weapons in hand ) legs and certain armor pieces and decorations ( shoulder armour, head dress elements, various decorative elements) etc to make their forces a bti more unique and personal.
I don't think we've seen figures in the Zombicide Season 1 human scale that are both made in PVC and have interchangeable heads, torsos, hands/weapons, and legs. That's quite a lot of customizability to be considering, and while it sounds great, the Zombicide type small human figures are mostly single piece or in few parts, I believe.
I would really like to see a test figure done for the range to prove out what kind of quality you can expect - I think this would give both you and customers a lot more confidence in backing something like this big. I would certainly like to, but there are quite a bit of unknowns in what you're describing, so testing it out would be a huge help.
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Post by: tre manor
Excellent questions RiTdies.
Ok I do not have any of the zombiecide humans. I only have the zombies. when I say that I am using them for scale reference I ONLY Menasha I am using them as the gauge for height and proportion. That is where the guidance ends. I think the detail on the zombiecide figures is OK for a board game token but not for a minis game. As far as I am aware the zombiecode figures are cast in a softer grade PVC. This is at least partly why the figures have softer detail AND why they are cast as single piece figures. casting figures in multiple parts does not reduce their detail capacity. Many figures are cast in multiple pieces at the at the factory and then assembled before being boxed. as afar as I am informed detail is more a matter of the initial sculpting and the limitations of the medium. There will always be some loss of detail but the loss can be mitigated by working to the limitations of the manufacturing. As afro as I am told facing the detail directly in to the mold plane helps keep that detail sharp. to explain if a face is fit into one side of the mold with a slight turn that face will have a bit more distortion than a face that is turned straight into the mold.
A test run........... Yes. I would LOVE to able to make a test run but I simply cannot afford it. I am not one of these mega titan companies with an R&D war chest to tap into for flashy marketing materials and high dollar pitch videos and then turn around and claim not to have the money to make a test run. Every dime I make either is consumed by living expenses or goes toward maintaining the business. In this effort I am trusting to the history of the manufacturer and my own ability to create a successful quality product. this campaign won't be flashy and glamorous. It will be what I am able to make of it and every penny earned will go toward building a better product.
I suppose I could run a KS to fund a small test run with an unrelated product but that then puts me waiting to deliver on that before I can launch this project.
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Post by: RiTides
Those are great answers Tre, thank you! I just wasn't sure if PVC figures, since they don't come on a sprue, would lend themselves to being as multi-part as was being discussed, since (on Mantic's figures for example) there seems to be a point where they are removed from the plastic runner that isn't always perfect.
I am very much hoping for success here, and was just thinking that a test run (if it turned out fantastic) would really up how much people would dive in for. I'd certainly donate to a "let's help Tre make a PVC test figure" fund... maybe something generic or exclusive that could be cool for most anyone to have. I'm guessing, if you just needed a mold for a single figure and a few test shots of it at that (i.e. not ordering a full production run from the mold) that you could cover it with under $5K... seems like the kind of thing that would be possible to raise in the age we live in  (I'm thinking of Mark Mondragon's metal troopers Kickstarter that he ran prior to the big Leviathan one, as an example).
Just tossing out ideas, looking forward to seeing where you go with this!
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Post by: Taarnak
tre manor wrote:Ok I do not have any of the zombiecide humans. I only have the zombies.
Which season? Because that makes a pretty big difference in the quality, in my opinion. The Season 3 stuff is crisper than the Season 1 stuff.
~Eric
23932
Post by: tre manor
season 1Taarnak.
And thanks RiTides. In so far as I am informed you buy the entire mold whether you fill it up or not. Depending on the figure and it's composition I could probably get anywhere from 12 ( single piece ) to 6 ( large multi part ) figures into a tool and then you MUST buy a minimum quantity of casts. Even if I do not order the minimum I will still pay for the minimum.
I am not at all opposed to runnign a really quick and dirty KS to fill a tool and minimum order for a few figures. It certianly couldn;t hurt could it?
Question is though......what should I do for the test run?? Adventurers? Monsters? Troops?
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Post by: RiTides
Well, I'm certainly biased but I think monsters would be fantastic, and usable for many people. If you can get multiple sculpts into a tool, you'd want to try something small too (to make a good test) but that could be easy to work in - a baby monster, for instance, or monster handler. I'd be all over this!
A mix of adventurers and monsters could be even better, and they could be themed together to match. Minion Miniatures raised quite a bit without any name recognition for their monsters, and if you combined some with matching adventurers, I think it could both fit your style / theme and prove out the process for you - making some cool figures and giving you a launching pad for a bigger project in the process. Kingdom Death even did this with the "Experiment of Death" set (a big monster along with smaller figures).
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Post by: tre manor
hmmmm I will have to mull this over a bit.
If I could fund two tools I could produce a good rnge of adventurers AND a good range of monsters as well.
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Post by: Taarnak
tre manor wrote:season 1Taarnak.
And thanks RiTides. In so far as I am informed you buy the entire mold whether you fill it up or not. Depending on the figure and it's composition I could probably get anywhere from 12 ( single piece ) to 6 ( large multi part ) figures into a tool and then you MUST buy a minimum quantity of casts. Even if I do not order the minimum I will still pay for the minimum.
I am not at all opposed to runnign a really quick and dirty KS to fill a tool and minimum order for a few figures. It certianly couldn;t hurt could it?
Question is though......what should I do for the test run?? Adventurers? Monsters? Troops?
You really should try to get a look at some S3 stuff Tre. It's a big difference.
And I vote a mix of adventurers and monsters.
~Eric
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Post by: Trodax
I would throw some money into a Kickstarter for Red Box Games to do a plastic test run. If possible, a mix does indeed sound like a nice idea; some biggish monsters (as those are most likely to turn out well I think) as well as some human sized figures (as the point of the test run would kind of be to see how these ended up).
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Post by: edlowe
I definitely jump in on a test run ks, I really want your new project to suceed but the pvc does worry me a bit. It like to see the results of the new pvc casting methods.
64423
Post by: Sabotage!
Well my vote is for Aenglish troops in heavy armor with visored (closed) helms, as usual. That would be a perfect compliment to my little Aenglish warband.
That said Adventurers and monster would be cool. Both niches are pretty well filled, but I think your style is unique enough that a kickstarter would do pretty well (I certainly wouldn't complain about adventurers sculpted to your standards).
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Post by: Alpharius
Definitely a mix as I've no doubt that larger monsters will be just fine in PVC, whereas the smaller human sized figures are where you'd really need to show that everything will be able to hold your detail and expectations!
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Post by: tre manor
........It just occurred to me that PVC would make a set of cavalry very much affordable..... Hmmm.....
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Post by: RiTides
 Alpharius wrote:Definitely a mix as I've no doubt that larger monsters will be just fine in PVC, whereas the smaller human sized figures are where you'd really need to show that everything will be able to hold your detail and expectations!
The great thing with mixing them, is people will be able to be confident about how the monsters will look, and Tre can find out what he needs to about the humans at the same time. Win-win!
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Post by: Da Boss
I think a mix is the way to go, too. We will feel more confident about the whole range if we know the human sized and monster sized minis both come out well in the medium. I would pledge!
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Post by: weeble1000
Just to throw my 0.02 in here, the incident with Dust Studios is categorically not isolated. The way that the CEO behaved publicly is suggestive of personality, morals, ethics, and business philosophy in general.
It isn't so much that problems occurred that did not occur in other projects (to public knowledge, mind), but rather the manner in which those problems were handled that is of concern.
William Yao appears to be willing to publicly disclose a client's private financial details, smear trade partners in the media, withhold production, and engage in wholesale brand assassination. Not someone to go into business with lightly, especially if the actual entity you are contracting with is based in China. The opportunities for recourse are limited.
She cheated on her last boyfriend and slashed his tires when he broke up with her, but she's dated, like, five other guys and i didn't hear them complain...
Just sayin'. Caution is warranted, especially for a prospective client with proportionately less clout and less business to offer.
86099
Post by: Prestor Jon
tre manor wrote:........It just occurred to me that PVC would make a set of cavalry very much affordable..... Hmmm.....
You could include the new Helsvakt riders and jotunn so you would already have some finished sculpts for people to see and have more cavalry, Aenglish maybe, and monsters as stretch goals. Cavalry would let you do both large and human sized sculpts and you could always add additional riders as stretch goals and/or do monstrous mounts as well.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Whatever you go with you need to have at least some of the smallest/most delicate stuff your intending to do on there,
so you actually get to see what the manufacturer/material will do with them
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Post by: tre manor
duly noted Wobble.
Yen I will definitely have the sculpts finished before launching the KS and have a quote from the manufacturer in hand as well.
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Post by: Taarnak
tre manor wrote: duly noted Wobble.
Yen I will definitely have the sculpts finished before launching the KS and have a quote from the manufacturer in hand as well.
Also, seriously, consider making the figures a little larger. It should help with the PVC and your sales.
~Eric
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Post by: Wehrkind
Maybe the thing to do (well, definitely if you are looking to please me for some reason) is to do 1-2 models from each faction in the PVC test run. Advantages would be having a demo model of each faction right there to demonstrate aesthetics and how well they work in PVC, as well as getting backers a single model of each faction to serve as the camel's nose in the tent. Assuming the factions have different scales and sizes it should cover all your bases, and be a bit of advertising for the big KS.
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Post by: Bolognesus
However then you're stuck with a tool that's not really all that useful going forward compared to something you could keep selling as a faction box set or the like.
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Post by: RiTides
I assume anything cast here could be made usable for the new game - it definitely would make sense to do so. However, going with things that people might have another use for in the interim (monsters and adventurers) also helps, as long as it doesn't restrict your creativity / process.
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Post by: tre manor
This test run woudl be to produce somethign useful for general fantasy and not at all related to the new project. And yes it would need to be something that I could go on to sell as a regular item.
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Post by: MikeRC97
I've been lurking on these boards for years but just registered so I could join in on this discussion as I'm super excited for Tre's super duper secret project.
Regarding a KS test - I think this is the right way to start. New manufacturer, (I'm assuming) overseas production, new material, there will be a lot of first time challenges on this project, so a small test kit would be a good way to start so that you can get experience with this type of production before moving on to the super duper secret project. My wife works in product development (not for miniatures unfortunately) with Asian contractors, they work from CAD files sent electronically but the designers still need to see production samples shipped from Asia back to the US before the move into production. Takes time, especially if the sample needs revision. Then when production commences you have to work around things like Chinese New Year and worry about deliveries stuck in customs. It is a lot to manage.
I think something useful for general fantasy is the right way to go. I would like to see general fantasy adventurers, something useful for anyone running a traditional fantasy campaign. Iconic classes like fighter, wizard, rogue, cleric but in Tre's style. And of course at least one barbarian. I'm thinking like Tre's Reaper stuff but in hard PVC. And PVC is not a bad medium, when done well the details are great. I just picked up the new plastic PP Kriel Warriors and these are beautiful minis - PP has learned from previous kits, whereas the Fellblades had mold lines cutting across faces and other details, the Kriel Warriors have their heads all facing into the mold. There is still a mold line but it is on the side of the face and easy to remove (the trick is to carve like if you were carving something out of wood, not to scrape like ABS plastic). I'm sure Tre's stuff will be fantastic in PVC.
Edit: I had more to say!
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Post by: RiTides
Nice post, Mike! I like everything you said there but I'd love to see some monsters in the mix, too - Tre's take on them could be very interesting. And I think people could feel very confident about how they would look in pvc, which helps with folks backing.
Is this the kind of thing where there'd be a single pledge level for a whole set of minis, or would you want to / be able to break them out as separate items?
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Post by: Bolognesus
 RiTides wrote:I assume anything cast here could be made usable for the new game - it definitely would make sense to do so. However, going with things that people might have another use for in the interim (monsters and adventurers) also helps, as long as it doesn't restrict your creativity / process.
Sure, but you can't cast more of one part in that tool than of another, so one of each faction seems like a risky idea.
the armoured aenglish sound like a lovely boxed set for example - few people will mind buying a full set from a tool like that. If it's one model from each faction, chances are many potential customers will only like 1/3-1/2 of the set and that can torpedo the perceived value right quick.
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Post by: tre manor
Yes, this will be a singular boxed set kind of deal. One to four pledges levels depending on the theme. One pledge level if I am producing characters or uniques and more than one pledge level if I do rank and file to allow people to buy multiple sets.
And thanks Mike!
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Post by: RiTides
You're right, Bolognesus - I was mixing idea in the post you quoted, but I do like the idea of adventurers / monsters that could be used by people for many things... I think Tre wants this separate from his upcoming project and that works fine for something like that.
I don't think something like the Aenglish makes as much sense, though - I think you'd want characters that could be used by people for RPGs or the like, and the same would go for any monsters.
Anyway, looking forward to seeing things develop! And also to seeing the last KS get sent to casting, seems very close to that point now 
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Post by: Bolognesus
It would seem to me a solid box of armoured human fantasy guard would have a bigger market with less competition vs. a box of adventurers (of course me hoping for those Aenglish has nothing to do with it )
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Post by: Wehrkind
I figured the tool would produce 4 or so single models, not necessarily a boxed set. Like 1 alternate sculpt of a fairly core model for each army. Sell them individually later to the various audiences.
Granted, you could end up with 2 of the models being popular while 2 are not, and thus a big pile of extras, and that could be a big problem after a while. But unless some of the factions really are so super unique that no one would want them for other games (which is hard for me to imagine, but I love me some counts-as) it seems unlikely to work out that some out of the output from the mold is unsellable.
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Post by: RiTides
Yeah I'm up for any of it . I think Tre works best when inspired, so hopefully lightning strikes him for something that he'd like to see in his first PVC mold 
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Post by: pancakeonions
 Taarnak wrote: tre manor wrote: duly noted Wobble.
Yen I will definitely have the sculpts finished before launching the KS and have a quote from the manufacturer in hand as well.
Also, seriously, consider making the figures a little larger. It should help with the PVC and your sales.
~Eric
I agree here. Your figures are beautiful, but do run a wee bit small. Would you be open to making them a little bigger? (not much, like half-a-head's height perhaps?)
I'll also play the devil's advocate and lobby for a 'test run' KS of entirely or mostly humanoid monsters. From the RPG angle, there's a glut of heroes out there on the market (particularly after the Reaper Bones KSs) but a set of orcs, goblins, or some other such minions would make an excellent addition to any dungeon master's collection, particularly as nice as I know you can make 'em. This might also give you the option to play a bit with scale. Orcs and goblins (just to carry on with that example) can be of various sizes, but are still humanoid, so you can see how they'd look, and how they might size up if they were human (or human-ish) heroes and troops.
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Post by: Gallahad
Yes, please please sculpt them about 10-15% larger than normal, and they will come out about right in PVC. Some nice generic human or elf soldiers would doubtlessly do well.
In fact, I think that some barbarian types would do even better. There are no barbarian infantry that are both a) decent sculpts and b) affordable enough for a mass battle game available. GW Marauders are neither. The Warlord Celts are OK sculpts, but pretty stinking bland (and small) for fantasy gaming. Not really much else out there.
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Post by: Wehrkind
Some cool PVC barbarians, or some freaking samurai. There's like one plastic samurai kit extant, and it is merely ok, and past that it is Perry metals or nothing. Maddening. Automatically Appended Next Post: (You know, while we are asking for things )
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Post by: RiTides
 Gallahad wrote:Yes, please please sculpt them about 10-15% larger than normal, and they will come out about right in PVC.
Ah, I totally forgot about PVC shrinkage (particularly on smaller figures). Very good call there! You will need to upsize them even if you want them to come out exactly the same size as they are now.
pancakeonions wrote:I agree here. Your figures are beautiful, but do run a wee bit small. Would you be open to making them a little bigger? (not much, like half-a-head's height perhaps?)
I'll also play the devil's advocate and lobby for a 'test run' KS of entirely or mostly humanoid monsters. From the RPG angle, there's a glut of heroes out there on the market (particularly after the Reaper Bones KSs) but a set of orcs, goblins, or some other such minions would make an excellent addition to any dungeon master's collection, particularly as nice as I know you can make 'em. This might also give you the option to play a bit with scale. Orcs and goblins (just to carry on with that example) can be of various sizes, but are still humanoid, so you can see how they'd look, and how they might size up if they were human (or human-ish) heroes and troops.
I like where you're going with this, pancakeonions! Tre's bugbear, orcs, and gobbos are some of my favorite, and you're right, you can mess around a lot with scale on non-human things like those.
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Post by: Da Boss
I would still buy the minis if they got bigger, but honestly, Tre's stuff is exactly in proportion for what it is meant to be.
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Post by: corgan
Da Boss wrote:I would still buy the minis if they got bigger, but honestly, Tre's stuff is exactly in proportion for what it is meant to be.
I second this.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Monsters can be any size they need to be though!
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Post by: tre manor
I have seen mold tools holding as many as 12 models ( human sized 32mm ) and mold tools holding as few as 6 models of the same general size. I think it depends on who is making the tool nd the shape of the actual figures themselves. The lesser the number of figures in a tool the more often you need to be able to sell those figures in order to break even or ever turn a profit. The same goes for tools with more figures in them but maybe to a lesser extent. So adventurers in plastic either need to be part of a larger set or they need to be more expensive per part to recoup the cost of production.
I think for this test I need to produce something that can be sold as a larger set of figures. This is intended to be a test not only of quality but also of the length of time it takes to produce and deliver and the extent to which it costs to package and deliver to the end user as well.
Scale...... I do not want to change the RBG scale for the fantasy line unless I am going to go for a full on revision of EVERYTHING........... which is do-able but not the goal here. We shall just have to see what comes of this.
As of now I am thinking either orcs and goblins or Anguish men at arms.
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Post by: MikeRC97
If it is between O&G or Aenglish my vote would be for Aenglish. Out of all of the existing RBG themes I think Aenglish are the most versatile. As PC/NPC types for traditional fantasy RPGs or a warband for a skirmish game like Frostgrave or SAGA, etc.
I think light / padded armor troops would be more versatile then heavy armor but maybe a mix or at least one heavily armored sargent character.
If possible modular heads and weapons as this would increase their versatility.
This is gonna be awesome...
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Post by: Sinful Hero
Keep in mind Reaper Bones- they do cheap gobbos and orcs very well. DMs can easily fill out dungeon rosters for cheap. Their adventuring minis are something to consider as well, but players are more willing to shell out for a single mini they really like versus a DM needing five goblins for an encounter.
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Post by: Da Boss
I like Aenglish, but I love your Orcs and Goblins. I would back either, and I guess you have the data to know which sells better so go with that one.
I do love your Orcs though, and having them in PVC would be awesome. Orcs + Goblins would allow you to show off two very different styles of model too- big and chunky vs. small and delicate.
But Aenglish would be good too,
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Post by: Alpharius
Agreed on making in the Aenglish - plus a big monster or two...
Maybe an Ogre or a Troll or something equivalent?
Maybe a mounted troop or two?
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Post by: Da Boss
Mounted Aenglish, even one, would make me sit the hell up and pay attention.
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Post by: corgan
Da Boss wrote:Mounted Aenglish, even one, would make me sit the hell up and pay attention.
I have to second Da BOss for the second time today!
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Post by: Sabotage!
More Aenglish would be amazing! Would love to see the current troops in PVC, and some heavy armor closed helm ones!
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Post by: Da Boss
Geeking out imagining a Tre style mounted sergeant looking all weary and determined...
 Should calm down and let the man himself make the choices. I didn't even know I wanted Red Box miniatures until I saw them
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Post by: Sinful Hero
@Tre
So Re you seriously considering the test run? Because if so that's pretty awesome. I know I'd be willing to chip in a bit to see "High-End" PVC.
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Post by: tre manor
Oh yeh the test run is going to happen. I will be finished with the sculpting from the latest KS tomorrow and then it is on to the test run figures and the other project figures. I won't launch the KS until I have heard back from the manufacturer as to how many figures / parts will fit into a tool and what the cost will be so I would imagine sometime around late August or so.
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Post by: Alpharius
But you'll let us know what the pieces on the test frame will be WAY before that, right?
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Post by: greywulf
Some female figures please tre. Thats what pulls me into your campaigns usually.
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Post by: tre manor
Oh yeh I will be sure to show tense off well before hand.
I know that figures that are similar in size to mine usually fit 8 to 10per mold if they are single piece. it is the modularity that will be the wrench in the works. I want to have a hands on quote on that before going to KS.
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Post by: MikeRC97
If it comes down to 10 unique figures or 8 modular figures, I think you should go with 8 modular and here's why - unique sculpts will appeal to collectors that buy to paint. Or if you producing a unit for existing rules where the figures should be armed to match their unit entry in the rules.
While I'm sure a lot of collectors will be interested in this box set, I think you should "cast a wider net" so to speak for the KS campaign. Modular figures with different weapons options will be of more use for RPG players wanting to make a PC/NPC or a gamer who needs a warband unit with specific weapons.
So for example a figure has options for a polearm and a shield on his back or a sword in one hand, shield in the other and a backpack.
Once you get to the super duper double secret project, then it depends on the rules you've been working on whether you make each unit unique or modular.
Just my $0.02
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Post by: Wehrkind
I agree with Mike on that one, especially as your models tend to stand out in a crowd. That is, they are sometimes hard to mix in with other random models due to scale and style. Making them modular would open up getting a set or three to do different stuff with in a given project, instead of just having a handful of guys who don't really look like anyone else in an army, except their 2-3 clones if you got multiples.
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Post by: Alpharius
So Tre - we must be due an update in here about now, yes?
Please?
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Post by: tre manor
Well production may happen faster than expected. I am tentatively scheduled to meet with them in person for a hands on quote and possibly some real time feedback as to how best to take advantage of the process for plastic production.
The rules will be much more completely realized by the time of the launch also. I am particularly eager to see how people react to the command mechanic of the game as the few people who have tried it out have REALLY liked it thus far. It still needs fine tuning and balancing but the reaction was definitely positive...... but then these were good friends of mine in a private setting so that may have been at least part of it.
Modularity may not be as varied as I had hoped as I am struggling to get the parts to work well together unless the pose is fairly undynamic. I prefer dynamic poses myself. We shall see how that develops.
I am also very seriously considering offering more than just the four initially discussed starter sets. It will really come down to what I am able to sculpt between now and the time I am ready to launch and what the moldmakers say when they have the figures in hand but I would really like to try to launch with 6 " factions " if possible...... even if 2 or 3 of them need to be stretch goals.
Of course this will mean a little less variety of expansion for the initial 4 but I think it may be easier to balance starter sets for 6 against each other than to try to balance starters AND expansions for 4.
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Post by: Wehrkind
Probably a good move. I think a decent variety of balanced starter sets helps a good bit, as there are always those who only like the aesthetics of one faction, and if that faction isn't in they aren't either. Plus I think people like to see expansions for factions come out at the same time, instead of one faction getting a bunch of stuff while the others wait. I believe people get flashbacks from GW's "support" of factions where no new models come out for years when they see 4 factions with 10 units and 2 factions with 4.
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Post by: pancakeonions
Hi Tre,
Apologies if I missed it earlier in this thread, but would you consider an open playtest period where you might share the rules with a group of folks to test it out? I'd love to partake if that might be possible. Thanks and good luck!
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Post by: greywulf
Based on what you said tre, it sounds like you've done a bit of sculpting. Any chance for a sneak peek?
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Post by: tre manor
sorry no sneak peeks before this is closer to launch. I intend to keep as much of the punch as possible for the actual launch. Though there will be some premarketing I think I FAr jumped the gun with the initial posting of this thread.
As to your question pancake onions; the initial release of rules will be an open beta test version. I do not want to publish a seet of rules and then have to rewrite and re market them two years later due to lack of thorough playtesting so the first " edition " will be a totally free " beta " edition. But do not be fooled the beta version will be a working model with certain core mechanics that will not change.
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Post by: MikeRC97
Tre seems like you're going to skip making a plastic test set of minis and go right into producing minis for the super duper secret kickstarter project?
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Post by: tre manor
Maybe maybe not it depends largely upon my meeting with the manufacturer.
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Post by: tre manor
Ok time for an update on this......
I am still in talks with a couple of different manufacturers on this but the really great news is that all of them can scan a tangible sculpt to make a digital master for hard metal tooling ( which is used to cast the harder plastics ) so I do not have to wait to learn zbrush for this project.
I am still working on this so do not fret. I am hoping to have something ready to show in the next month or so.
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Post by: Alpharius
So...it has been a while here.
Any news for us Tre?
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Post by: Alpharius
No really, is there?
(OK, I'm PMing Tre too!)
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Post by: Schmapdi
Yeah - sadness.
I was saving this to be one of my 2 KS for both 2014 and 2015!
Third time is a charm I hope. And quit giving me false hope Alph!
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Post by: plastictrees
Tre seems to be working on Norse stuff as per his Facebook updates. I think he might be going with something safe for his initial plastics foray
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Post by: Prestor Jon
This is from update #47 from Tre's last kickstarter Barbarian Hordes:
I do very sincerely apprecciate everyone's confidence, encouragement, enthusiasm and patience with me in this effort and I do very dearly hope to see you all in my next Kickstarter project set to launch in January. This next project; Warbands, will seek to fund the production of a new line of plastic figures. The first offering planned are the Njorn. 4 light armored hirdmen, 2 shield maidens, 2 archers, 2 berserkers, a Longswordsman Hero and a Wise Woman. I will also have a warband set for an opposing force ready to fund as well should the demand be sufficient. It is my intention to use this new project to also launch the beta version of the RBG skirmish rules as well. it has been a long time coming and I think now it is the most important thing I can do.
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Post by: MikeRC97
On December 3rd on the RBG facebook page, Tre posted that the opposing force that might be added to the Njorn KS would be goblins:
The next KS will fund the Njorn Army set and possibly an expansion of the Goblin army as well. The Beta rules for the game will launch with the KS and will allow for the use of any RBG figures currently in production whilst these new figures complete production.
Odd that it would be goblins because in October he previewed sculpts of modular Aenglish but I guess that faction will not be part of the KS. I'm a big fan of the Njorn models so I'm looking forward to this one, would love to see plastic Aenglish, HelsVakt and Dwarves eventually.
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Post by: RiTides
Oh my gosh, Goblins! I think it's a good idea to have a "non-human" opposing force, as well as one that could be considered slightly more of the "evil" bent... and darn I love Tre's goblins. If those unlock in any fashion, I'll totally be in for it!
Also received my Jotunn from his last campaign, and it's amazingly sculpted, as always. I think Tre has shown that in the end, he will deliver a fantastic product - just factor in some extra time for whatever the delivery date is listed as, since the campaigns have been successful and usually run late.
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Post by: overtyrant
I thought RBG were never going to touch plastic as it is an inferior material to metal and resin? That it couldn't hold the same details as the latter? Hopefully these will be cheaper then their current range so I can justify buying them to myself.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually thinking about it what sort of plastic will these be?
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Post by: MikeRC97
Over on the RBG facebook page Tre posted the following back in February:
I have long been told that plastic production has certain limitations. That fine detail does NOT transition well into the material. I have been highly critical of companies that show resin masters to sell the product and then deliver something that does not match the detail shown on the masters to greater or lesser degrees. This is apparently proof that I was wrong in that assertion and I must apologize for that. I have long been told that plastic production has certain limitations. That fine detail does NOT transition well into the material. I have been highly critical of companies that show resin masters to sell the product and then deliver something that does not match the detail shown on the masters to greater or lesser degrees. This is apparently proof that I was wrong in that assertion and I must apologize for that.
These are the actual plastic pieces going into the box that will be shipping to backers of the BloodRage kickstarter campaign launching on the 2nd of March. It is my understanding that these pieces are produced by the same contractors ( Dust Studios ) that will be producing the Conan boardgame recently kickstarted by Monolith and also the upcoming " the Others" board game as well.
These are highly impressive to me knowing what I know about the process and materials. The figures look great.
NOW, apology done.......this ALSO changes the Rubric for miniatures. It can no longer be said that plastics cannot compete in terms of detail with metals. While metals are still and will be for the foreseeable future a mainstay of the miniatures hobby, it appears to me that, based on the cost of plastic products and the apparent fidelity of detail that can be achieved in them, plastics MUST be considered an ideal option for new product lines.
So, as long as I am able to find a way in to the services of these producers I will certainly be looking in to plastic production for future RBG projects.
See Tre's post on page 19 of this thread (about halfway down the page) and some of his follow up replies about the RBG move to plastic.
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Post by: tre manor
Hey guys, I am sorry for the long silence on this. and thank you all for your continued interest and enthusiasm for the project. I do not intend to stretch your patience much further..
The SDSP IS still underway. I wanted to launch a smaller project first so that I can get a FIRM grasp on the process of plastic production and establish a relationship with a reputable plastics manufacturer. not to mention get a feel for the various peripheral expenses and efforts i.e. packaging, postage from China, setting up foreign fulfillment centers etc. So if you can bear with me a little further....hopefully no further than May 2016, then the SDAP will finally launch!
As for the next RBG project; Warbands of the Cold North yes it launches in January and will look to fund the first set of RBG fantasy plastics. The Njorn are the first up for funding. The campaign will begin by funding the Hirdmen ( semi modular lightly armoured footmen) first and one limited edition Priestess / female wizard type figure. The LE will be a kickstarter exclusive cast in high quality resin. After the footmen fund then we will move on to the various other troops in the Njorn army such as Berserkers, Huscarls ( armoured fighters ), Huntsmen, Shield Maidens, personalities, and villagers. Each of these will be it's own set funded individually.
There will be printed boxes for each of the sets when they ship. And a Campaign T-shirt reward as well..... the design for the T shirt is still WIP but REALLY damned cool thus far.
there will be three early bird levels that will offer either 1 set of hirdmen and 1 LE, or 2 sets of hirdmen and 1 LE, or 3 sets of hirdmen and 1 LE with each level offering a special early bird discount but there will only be a strictly limited number of EB's available.
As for plastics.......The process and techniques have come a VERY long way in the past year or two BUT there are still limitations to what can and cannot be captured well in plastic. I intend to keep this thought in mind in the design and sculpting of any RBG piece intended for plastic production. That said I have been VERY impressed with the pieces I have seen and handled in the past several months and I am very confident that RBG figures will come out fantasticly in plastic!
Cheers yall!
Tre'
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Post by: overtyrant
I'm very impressed you have decided to and have the patience to run a KS to test out a plastic kit/manufacturer before your main one. I will back this.
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Post by: RiTides
Agreed, I think that's really smart. Sounds like it would have to really take off for another faction to make it in, but if it's goblins I'll be all over it (not pushing for it though - you should do whatever is most popular and makes the most sense!)
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Post by: tre manor
Well if this KS only funds the Njorn that just means I have to run a future KS for each of the factions.
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Post by: MikeRC97
Yes please!!! My preference would be (in this order) Aenglish, HelsVakt, Dwarves and Elves.
So will you also run separate kickstarters for expansions to each faction like you mentioned for the Njorn?
I can see so many uses for RBG warbands right now - Frostgrave, Song of Blades and Heroes, Dragon Rampant and your own rules you've mentioned on facebook.
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Post by: tre manor
Yes. This is really a test for the format of product and a test of the plastics production process. So if this one goes well there will be follow up campaigns for each of the factions until all of them are fully expanded in plastic.
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Post by: Bolognesus
Any chance some of the old trollcast helsvakt (the armoured ones and the cavalry) might show up in PVC some day? I'm sort of kicking myself over not getting any of those and PVC quality would be fine on those for me.
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Post by: RiTides
I personally hope to see something new, Helvakt have gotten so much attention (even in more recent campaigns).
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Post by: tre manor
Yes the Gynnade will eventually come back. plastic makes them and other bulky figures like them much more feasible as units.
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Post by: Bolognesus
Awesome, great to hear. Really looking forward to some of that cavalry actually being available again.
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Post by: Binabik15
Aww yiss, sounds delightful.
My GF *really* wants me to do a small warband of female warriors and full clothing and a Viking theme would preferred,so I hope the shieldmaidens wear full outfits and fund. If they'd wear swan masks like the one I made her for Halloween it'd be even better
After that Goblins should be next, I never got to buy all the Nosebiter ones or whatever the buff ones are called.
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Post by: RiTides
I believe the word you're looking for is "Bonebacks"
And I have... well, let's just say a rather large stash  but will hopefully finally have them on the table for a Kings of War army in 2016!
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Post by: Binabik15
Yeah, that sounds right. I always wanted some, but my Orcs n Gobbos are pirate-themed. Arrr.
And my stash of minis I have left to be worked on, oh well
But I'd still get some great shieldmaidens and stuff to make swan valkyries. Which I will paint. To my usual quality, so I'll finish one or two a year, but they'll look lovely.
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Post by: Da Boss
Looking forward to this.
Glad you're gonna iron the kinks out before going for the Big Project, even if it means waiting a while longer.
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Post by: pancakeonions
Yes please for orcs and/or goblins! Either way, I'm backing this. Very excited to see where it goes, good luck!
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Post by: ATXMILEY
Interesting redbox is making miniature games now
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Post by: RiTides
Just one, I think and it's really welcome because then it's not about trying to fit his models into other systems, but using them in their own. A simple skirmish ruleset with a bit of magic would be awesome!
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Post by: MattW
Any word on a launch date? We were told January, but that's nearly over...
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Post by: Grot 6
Binabik15 wrote:Yeah, that sounds right. I always wanted some, but my Orcs n Gobbos are pirate-themed. Arrr.
And my stash of minis I have left to be worked on, oh well
But I'd still get some great shieldmaidens and stuff to make swan valkyries. Which I will paint. To my usual quality, so I'll finish one or two a year, but they'll look lovely.
I had a batch from a clowns on Indiegogo...
If they could get together, I know we wouldn't be disappointed.
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Post by: Alpharius
Are you sure that was meant to be posted in this thread?
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Post by: tre manor
hey guys, sorry this is taking so long. The super modularity does not work the way i wanted it to so I have had to go back and resculpt the figures intended for the offering.
So rather than dividing them into 5 parts these will be divided into 3 parts, body, head, and weapon hand. The super modular Njorn required far too many compromises in the quality of the figures themselves as Norse design typically do not have completely separate layers where you can make a divide. Too many over lapping elements.
The first goal will seek to fund a box which will have 5 semi modular footmen with weapon and shield repeated twice in the box, and one archer repeated twice. The archer won't be modular unfortunately. There will also be a KS exclusive female magic user cast in resin.
The campaign WILL be live by the end of the week. I had been also waiting to have all of the still remaining KS rewards packages shipped this week as well.
Sorry this is taking so long yall.
But speaking to the original intent of the thread the SDSP is STILL coming. This KS is primarily a test for the process and format. The offering for the SDSP will depend largely upon what I learn from this KS. I am very very eager to get to it but I want to be certain that I get it right. It is goign to be a much larger project and I think it wise to get a first hand experience in plastic production and distribution with a " smaller " project before launching the SDSP.
I will be SO glad when I can finally start calling the SDSP by it's actual name.
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Post by: Lovejoy
Well whatever name you use, the initials had better spell out SDSP - I've got used to saying that...
Looking forward to the plastic footmen; it's pretty exciting stuff! I'll be backing for sure.
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Post by: tre manor
Thanks man! and Best fo luck with your HiSS KS!
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Post by: Da Boss
Still excited for this - this will be my main KS this year I believe unless the SDSP releases in 2016 as well.
I am (probably unlike most customers) happier with "semi modularity" or even monopose in a nice plastic medium than with true multi part sculpts. My favourite thing about your line is the dynamism and purpose of the sculpts - you get so much expression into the posture and bearing of your stuff that is not at all easy for a mediocre modeller like me to replicate with multipart stuff, and there's always a compromise anyway.
So I am honestly MORE interested after hearing the changes (which I know were probably frustrating as hell for you) than I was before. But I may be in the minority there!
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Post by: tre manor
Thanks boos!!
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Post by: RiTides
Da Boss wrote:Still excited for this - this will be my main KS this year I believe unless the SDSP releases in 2016 as well.
I am (probably unlike most customers) happier with "semi modularity" or even monopose in a nice plastic medium than with true multi part sculpts. My favourite thing about your line is the dynamism and purpose of the sculpts - you get so much expression into the posture and bearing of your stuff that is not at all easy for a mediocre modeller like me to replicate with multipart stuff, and there's always a compromise anyway.
So I am honestly MORE interested after hearing the changes (which I know were probably frustrating as hell for you) than I was before. But I may be in the minority there!
That's a great point, Da Boss! And I agree, Tre's sculpting (awesomeness) definitely lends itself to dynamic poses, and makes true multi part sculpts somewhat impractical and even a waste. I am totally fine with semi modularity, and will definitely be pledging for your next project for you to try out the medium. I am looking forward to seeing the results, and if it works for you, bigger things to come in the material!
I will say that I think any of these plastics lend themselves to slightly beefier models, so I hope you don't go too "lithe" with them, again just due to the material. But results have looked better and better in these previously shunned plastics, and I am hoping that having a masterpiece of a starting model will help the end product turn out on the high end of the results spectrum, too
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Post by: Da Boss
Hey, not to necro, but I am wondering if there is any news on this? I can imagine there were some hiccups with getting started, but I'm looking forward to backing this and we're well past January by now.
Hope everything is alright!
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Post by: tre manor
Had a long spell of burn out and artist's block, on top of all the difficulties wrapping up fulfillment on my last KS has just put me long off schedule. i have however mostly finished the first offering figures and now only need to finish editing the photos and tidying up the KS page and get on the first stretch goal figures.
The campaign will launch on the 25th of February at 3:00 pm US eastern time and will run to the 18th of March at 4:00pm eastern time.
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Post by: Alpharius
Finally!!!
Woo hoo!
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Post by: greywulf
Exciting!
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Post by: Schmapdi
*falls over dead*
So is this the ACTUAL super duper secret project launching on the 25th? Or is it the test project for the new material launching?
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Post by: plastictrees
Test I think, 'warbands of the cold north' so Norse or Helsvakt...or both?
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Post by: tre manor
Yep, just the test project for now. The SDSP will get a bit more front loading before it's launch..
and JUST the Njorn for now. I will have the Halsvakt ready but there are a few items ahead of a second warband.
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Post by: RiTides
As long as it's in the new material, that's awesome . Looking forward to the launch!
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Post by: Da Boss
Great news! Can't wait to put my money down.
Sorry about the burnout dude! I hope I'm not contributing to it by nagging about the project - I'm just super excited for the next RBG thing!
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Post by: tre manor
Yep new material. The boxed sets will contain 15 figures and sell for $45 during the KS. The boxes will contain 4 footmen with weapon and shield fitted for universally interchangeable heads and weapons and one ranger fitted for universally interchangeable head. these will be repeated in the box 3 times.
as funding allows I will hope to add a few figures to the KS box either replacing repeats or expanding the offering with additional figures.
IF the funding really goes berserk I will begin adding either booster sets of ally figures or I might add a new Theme set to the offering.
That is a narrow if though. I MUST make the funding goals to afford the expansions in plastic. There is zero room for adjustment.
Oh no not at all Boss!
Ever since the first KS I have been fighting varying degrees of burnout. It has been worse before, but this year was partly more difficult due to trying to wait out the delviery of the last KS. stretching resources as thin as I have had to to do that has meant concentrating on work and being creative has been VERY difficult if not all together impossible at times.
This is no small factor in the reason that delivery ont he last KS has dragged out for so long. The KS money itself was gone before the fulfillment began and I have been using my income to supplement the fulfillment and pay off the production debt. During the KS I unlocked more than was wise depending on the post KS sales to pay me for the sculpting and effort. The problem is that the longer it took for those items to become available for sale through the store the less impact they had and the further I had to stretch my income in the meantime. Add to that that most people who were going to buy the stuff had already done so during the KS.
It has been difficult to say the least but we are nearly there now. just waiting for a restock of a few items to cover the last of the orders sat waiting to deliver.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
I hope you set funding at a level that's enough to do things comfortably for you Tre.
Happy to keep supporting!
15 guys sounds like a perfect pile of guys to use in Frostgrave for the time being too...
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Post by: RiTides
Well I love the target goal, and also want you to avoid more burnout! Keeping this manageable to test the material and be a simple-to-have-cast offering is the way to go, I think. Will definitely be backing!
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Post by: tre manor
That was pretty much the aim. Until I can get the rules for my own game finished that is.
and yeh the initial goal is $40K, that will cover paying for everything; sculpting, art assets for the KS and packaging, tooling, casting, postage from China, customs fees, taxes, kickstarter's fee, printing and shipping the packages, sorting and processing orders, storage of the items, the purchase of extra items to replace any mispacks or missing items or miscasts, a restock of the product sold ( VERY important ) and give me a small amount of incidental cash to cover anything I might not be able to foresee.
$40K seems like a lot, and it certainly is, but it gets gobbled up REALLY quickly.
Even with this KS being successful though I will still need to rely on more regular metal and resin releases for an income So that route is not entirely abandoned.
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Post by: Da Boss
Well, like the others I am hoping for a nice tight KS that makes you some money and irons out the kinks in the production!
I can totally understand burnout in your position. The market is really saturated with Kickstarters promising the moon and gobbling up a lot of available money and then souring people when they don't deliver. I know you've had your share of bumps and lumps with KS, but you've always delivered and I really respect that. All the same I can really imagine it taking a toll. I hope you can keep the chin up and make some decent money on this - an artist of your talent does deserve a living!
I've just started painting my RBG norse that I got from one of the previous KS and it just makes me so excited to get some more because they are just gorgeous minis. I'm even more excited by your next project and will be waiting to support that too.
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Post by: Binabik15
I'm interested as well, but your campaigns are always at a bad time for me 
Edt: Top of the page post twice in a row...what are the odds
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Post by: MindwormGames
Alright! Good luck Tre, and I'm glad to see more products out of Red Box games!
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Post by: Fugazi
Looking forward to it.
If anyone out there is on the fence, buy Tre's stuff. The sculpts are excellent. They do not disappoint.
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Post by: RiTides
tre manor wrote:The campaign will launch on the 25th of February at 3:00 pm US eastern time and will run to the 18th of March at 4:00pm eastern time.
Is this timing still on track Tre, I'm guessing it would need to be submitted by now? Looking forward to it
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Post by: tre manor
already submitted and approved. I am just trying to get a little more ahead of the game.
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Post by: plastictrees
Looking forward to getting some awesome vikings for Darklands.
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Post by: RiTides
Excellent news, thanks Tre!
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Post by: Fugazi
Tre, I know this has been said before: when you post an update to your most recent KS about your upcoming KS, you should really post an update to all your former KSers to reach more people. Cut and paste, man.
Anyway, it's supposed to go live today. Good luck Tre.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Not sure if I've got the money to back properly, but i'm in to support the project
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Post by: Da Boss
Backed. Perhaps we should make a new thread to advertise the KS a bit better?
Hope this goes well!
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Post by: jorny
I really shouldn't buy any more hobby stuff, but this I back without hesitation!
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Post by: tre manor
thanks yall! Every thing helps!
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Post by: pancakeonions
I just posted a "news" thread, hope that's OK.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/681643.page#8482494
Tre: you really should post a "hi, check out my new... blablabla" on all your older KSers. I'd love to see this one get the love and recognition it deserves!
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Post by: tre manor
will be doing so tonight! thanks!
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Post by: Wehrkind
Aaaaand backed! I am really liking the price point on these! Not quite as spendy as the super elite models; 3$ a pop for RedBox quality is a good deal!
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Post by: Alpharius
tre manor wrote:I am actually considering the SDSP in metal now more than ever. I won;t commit it to that yet, but it is a possibility.
Pleasepleaseplease make it so!
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Post by: pancakeonions
Hurumph. If that's the only way to make it happen, I'll be in.
But plastic > metal, every time, all the time
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Post by: Alpharius
HIPs > metal? Sure, usually!
"Plastic" (PVC) > metal? Eh, maybe, depending, but most times not.
It is pretty good for 'larger' figures, so maybe the aforementioned 'big beasties' here could be in PVC and the infantry in metal?
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Post by: RiTides
I thought it might be worth compiling the pictures Tre has teased in this thread . Note the last sculpt shown here was from a year and a half ago - he has been really patient with this project, but these greens are amazing! Would love to see them get cast . Possibly in metal, and beasts in PVC if things go well, or even resin like Mierce Miniatures beasts?
Here are the pics!
tre manor wrote:I know i have been trying to keep this firmly under wraps btu i think ti might be worth while to make sure that I am on the right track with this by posting a bit of a sneak peek into the direction I am traveling.
Below is the first of one of the human faction's grunt figures. This guy is intentionally simple because I plan to engineer some cross compatible modularity into as many of the figures as possible.
Also I have pictured the very beginning stages of one of the game's big beastie creatures. This thing will be the mount for a faction champion. It is for a different faction than the grunt pictured here but I felt it would be handy to give a bit of breadth to the concept so you might be able to better picture where I am going with it.
Anyway I hope you guys like where this is going but please tell me if you think this is a waste of time.
Images are copyright Red Box Games 2009-2014
tre manor wrote:
Alright y'all. HEre is a small peek at two of the nine. These will have hand weapons and shields. The equipment will be suitably worn. The weapons will probably be some sort of short swords and the shields will be round shields of some kind of metal sheet so not very big. These will represent the most basic form of melee grunts. I am hoping as this effort develops to have the opportunity to follow a few other ideas I have for various types of undead, but for the beginning this is the offering.
There will be nine of these " grunts " ( never fear I have a better term for them int he rules and fiction ) in the starter set along with a pair of living cultist acolytes and a somewhat more vital undead warrior hero and a controlling NEcromancer. The undead in this game are going to be FAR more powerful of an enemy than what is typically seen in gaming and fiction in general. Undead always terrified me as a kid because I wondered how you can kill something that is already dead. The undead of contemporary fiction have definitely lost that kind of ominence. I want the undead fo this world setting to bring that back in spades.
tre manor wrote:
Ok Y'all, here are the new preview pics...... I am not sure I am 100 % sold on the lizardman design. It is still a little too anthropomorphic for what I was aiming for...BUT this would be one of the lesser lizardman warrior minions. This kit would be part at the top of the neck and at the waist and at the left elbow IF I go modular. There would be 2 options each for legs, torso, head, shield, and weapon at least to start out with.
Then there is the Beta Mutant warrior. This kit would part at the top of the neck and at the waist. There would be 3 options for legs and torsos and four options for heads and weapons as at least one of the torsos would have a two necks. These guys are going to define bizarre. The entire faction will as a matter of fact. This head option has one eye, there will be another option with three eyes, and another with four eyes, and another with two. This torso has three arms, there will others with four, or just two, or three with one on the opposite side. Their skin textures will each be unique as well.
That may be going out on the limb a bit too far but the hell with it, I want to create an opportunity for artists to really just go berserk and truly be creative. That is really the overall driving ethic behind the design of the project as a whole. I really want people to feel encouraged to write their own visual stories in this game / world. I want to see artists REALLY being artists free from the constraints of " painting by the numbers " so-to-speak......That really comes across wrong...... what I mean is to say that I do not want to confine artists to the standards of the " real world". I want people to feel absolutely free to paint the skin of their barbarians Purple with green hair if they want. Freedom to be freaky and have FUN with their creations.
anyway these are the candidates for the third faction in the first KS. It may be that both fo them get included btu I am goign to concetrate my efforts on one or the other first and once that one is done, if the funding allows the opportunity then the other will be included.
Ok here they are..........
tre manor wrote:
Time for another preview??
This is the first of the greater Undead Warriors. These are Undead whose spirits are more tightly bound to their mummified remains and generally act as the personal guard of the Liche Priest hood or High ranking cultists. They are smarter and stronger and more co-ordinated than the lesser undead. They are not totally autonomous but they also do not need the same level of management by the necromancer or the closer proximity to the animating necromancer either.
I have plans to make 3 or 4 of these and then a cultist hero to lead them in battle.
tre manor wrote:
New PReivew Time!
This is the Liche Priestess who animates the undead warrirors previewed thus far.
And this is one of the art element WIPs for the undead faction for the campaign page and rules book.
tre manor wrote:
As promised. This is one of the Bua Bua or Mutant " faction ". This woudl be a middle ranking grunt.
I am JUST abotu to head otu to dinner with the family but I will eb back to answer questions as needed.
Cheers!
Tre'
If you want to see the preceding or following discussion for any of these posts, just click on tre's name at the top of the quote!
I really want those mutants...
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Post by: Alpharius
Infantry in Metal and Big Beasts in Resin (real) or PVC would work for me.
It seems as if it would be a good way to get this campaign running sooner too.
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Post by: MLaw
Thanks for compiling those (first post compile would probably be helpful too if that's even possible..
Is the plan for the lizards to have a warband? If so please make the minions more like D&D troglodytes and not little frog people or kobolds or snakes or something.. The only people making troglodytes I'd ever consider buying is Anti-Matter and frankly, seeing some from RBG would have me throwing money at my computer, stuffing it in the cd-tray, possibly trying to cram it into the powersupply or modem..
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Post by: RiTides
Good idea - I've updated the OP with the images!
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Post by: Alpharius
I think making the SDSNRBG Project Lizard Men look like AD&D...Lizard Men would be best!
Tre's preview sculpt is actually quite awesome and if they all look similar to that, well that would be fantastic!
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Post by: MLaw
Alpharius - Oh absolutely.. I think I might've jumped to a conclusion that there would be a few regular lizardfolk supported by weaker minions.. hence the trog suggestion. I was thinking along the lines of Gangers and Juves in Necromunda..
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Post by: pancakeonions
Aw man, when he comes back, let's convince him to put the lizards, or the mutant faction up as a KS! I would buy more of 'em than just one box.
As others have noted, I'm a bit sated on the vikings front... There's lots of 'em out there already.
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Post by: Da Boss
The Lizardmen are supposedly a slave faction for Amazon magic users, I think? It's in the thread somewhere. I too am mostly excited for the Lizardmen and barbarians.
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Post by: Ian Sturrock
So, the mods have suggested we take general discussion of Tre's awesome work here rather than the now-cancelled KS thread.
For me, speaking as a Reaper Bones fan, the big strength of PVC minis is big critters. (I would say this also holds true with the Blood Rage PVC minis -- though the human-sized Vikings from Blood Rage are way better than any human-size Bones, IMO, the giants and trolls from Blood Rage are absolutely amazing).
I also think this is an area a lot of people don't already have a load of minis of, partly because they tend to be metal (except Bones / Blood Rage). But also, a lot of big creatures are either generic fantasy in style, or specific to a particular world (e.g. GW's or Mantic's ogres, trolls, etc.). Some Norse-mythology-inspired trolls and giants though? Especially if multi-part? I would pledge for those. I don't think anyone else is making them.
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Post by: Wehrkind
Yea, I would love a range of trolls and giants in the same vein as Blood Rage's big beasties, especially if they are in high quality and low price PVC. Or HIPS, or Resin... just not metal
(and not as expensive as Mierce)
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
It feels like Norse and/or Brian Froud style trolls and giants are the standard outside of GW and Mantic. There's clearly a market.
I won't buy any, though, as I can't stand that aesthetic.
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Post by: MLaw
I'm not really sure what you guys are meaning when you say norse style.
I have always pictured giants closer to how Reaper portrays them. I grew up seeing trolls portrayed soooo many different ways though. The troll under the bridge from the Three Billy Goats Gruff all the way to the weird long nosed ones from D&D or the weird furry things in Willow..
I have seen Troll Hunter (the movie) is that the type of thing you guys are talking about?
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Post by: streetsamurai
Wow. This 4 arms mutant is really something. Wasnt too sure about the first mutant shown, but this one really nails it. Guess mutants will be my first faction. Still hoping for an eventual ant man factions Slightly off topic question. Is there a big difference between castin models in metal and in resin ? Im asking cause it seems that a lot of persons seems pretty averse to metal or resin, so i guess you would maximise your sales by offering both choice
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Post by: Azazelx
 Alpharius wrote:I think making the SDSNRBG Project Lizard Men look like AD&D...Lizard Men would be best!
Tre's preview sculpt is actually quite awesome and if they all look similar to that, well that would be fantastic!
Really? That AD&D Lizardman looks awful. Tre's sculpt looks far, far better. Unless you simply mean "not Mesoamerican" in which case, I concur.
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Post by: plastictrees
 streetsamurai wrote:Wow. This 4 arms mutant is really something. Wasnt too sure about the first mutant shown, but this one really nails it. Guess mutants will be my first faction. Still hoping for an eventual ant man factions Slightly off topic question. Is there a big difference between castin models in metal and in resin ? Im asking cause it seems that a lot of persons seems pretty averse to metal or resin, so i guess you would maximise your sales by offering both choice
You can't do both from the same mold and casters that do one well seem to only do one or the other. Offering models in resin and metal would increase the initial cost per model for Tre.
I really think the metal line with PVC big guys could be a great middle ground for Tre.
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Post by: RiTides
I too prefer Tre's Lizardmen! He's got the best parts of oldschool modeling, without it feeling too, well, oldschool
 plastictrees wrote:I really think the metal line with PVC big guys could be a great middle ground for Tre.
I'm also wondering if this might lower the initial costs a bit, if he only commits to say a single monster in PVC and two warbands in metal to start with (and expands to four warbands if things go well).
I definitely think your unique sculpts are the way to go - if it was lizardmen versus mutants, I'd get both factions! But if only one can make it to start, I really think those Mutants should be in
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Post by: Alpharius
Well, the key part re; Lizard-Men really was:
Alpharius wrote:
Tre's preview sculpt is actually quite awesome and if they all look similar to that, well that would be fantastic!
...so I've no concerns there.
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Post by: tre manor
hahaha I am trying to avoid distracting myself from getting the Njorn Metal campaign taken care of with too much talk of the SDSP but I will say that whatever material I end up launching with there will be representatives of at least 6 factions available from the start. Whether as full faction starter lists or as merceanry ally units. The Mutants and the Lizardmen will be definties along with a third trope that I have never said anything about that i think ( desperately hope ) will make people's heads pop.
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Post by: Ian Sturrock
I like Reaper's Frost and Fire giants and trolls... but I like Blood Rage's ones better, and am confident Tre would do better one still.
Personally I'm not thinking fairytale style or Froud style, but the kind of monsters that Viking grandmothers would terrify their grandkids with... the Frost Giants are frightening because they're pretty much like Vikings only bigger and tougher, maybe uglier, and with that frost affinity. Fire Giants are even more badass and even more supernaturally powerful because they don't show up at all till Ragnarok. Trolls live in the mountains and will mess you up with rocks and/or evil magic.
Now WTF all this looks like, I don't quite know. But I do know I trust Tre to make it look awesome.
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Post by: Wehrkind
 MLaw wrote:I'm not really sure what you guys are meaning when you say norse style.
I have always pictured giants closer to how Reaper portrays them. I grew up seeing trolls portrayed soooo many different ways though. The troll under the bridge from the Three Billy Goats Gruff all the way to the weird long nosed ones from D&D or the weird furry things in Willow..
I have seen Troll Hunter (the movie) is that the type of thing you guys are talking about?
Yes, the Froud look is closer to the Norse/Northern Euopean aesthetic seen in Trollhunter (love that movie) and sort of Blood Rage. Sort of big, rougher looking humans with big noses. Sort of like crude or half finished humans. I don't really know where the old AD&D lanky, rubbery troll concept comes from, maybe an attempt to distinguish them from ogres (sort of western European versions of trolls).
I personally like the crude humanoid look best, but I can understand if some don't. It does make trolls sort of cute in a way, although Trollhunter dispels a lot of that
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Post by: Yodhrin
Alpharius wrote:Infantry in Metal and Big Beasts in Resin (real) or PVC would work for me.
It seems as if it would be a good way to get this campaign running sooner too.
I'd go for that, especially if those mutants make an appearance. I get that Tre would be disappointed to not do the infantry in PVC, but I personally will never back a PVC/restic-related project unless there are detailed photos of final-quality production proofs(not resin casts of the master model, not the original sculpts - actual PVC proofs). It's not a comment on the people who might be running such a project in future, I've just been burned on PVC models before and refuse to be again.
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Post by: Da Boss
I'd just be cautious about the PVC-metal thing because co-ordinating it could become a problem especially if the models are mixed into sets (as I assume they would be).
It would be frustrating to have the project held up by problems with one or other producer. But I guess that can happen anyway. Big beasties in PVC would be awesome.
I have some of Tre's Trolls btw. They're nice minis, basically like bigger versions of his Orcs. They were the first RBG minis I bought because I love Trolls.
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Post by: Prestor Jon
I think doing the monsters in pvc makes the most sense. Backers will back large pic models more readily and if they come well which they likely will, it will make it easier for Tre to move the whole line to PVC once people have proof in their hands that it can be done well.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
PVC might be preferable to resin or even metal (if the big stuff isn't too big)
but paying for moulds for PVC is going to go right back to the reason the last one had to be cancelled, They cost a lot of cash and have minimum runs that will cost plenty too
so you either have a high initial target (Tre can't lowball it as he doesn't have the money to pay $10-20K if the project doesn't explode) or do them as a stretch after funding the metal stuff which again will be big
and if the big beasties are a key part of the game he's got the get them out
so resin/metal is probably going to be the way to go
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Post by: RiTides
That's a good point Orlando - but hopefully a single model in PVC wouldn't be as expensive of a mold, even if it's a bit of a larger sculpt. The manufacturer might even offer a single cavity mold at a good price for businesses to test out their service, before committing to more expensive tooling. I'm not sure on PVC but this is definitely true for the molding I've experienced. You can go with a cheaper single cavity mold, and end up with a higher cost per part, but it's a great option if you need/want to spend a lot less on the tooling.
Just as an example for the ModCube we ended up going with only a 2 cavity mold because we paid for half of the tool upfront before running the campaign... we considered 4 and 8, but even with getting over 50,000 cube halves made in the end, it was pretty equal in final cost between a 2 and 4 cavity mold after the production run (less on the tooling, slightly more per part). This can make it a safer option to start with, and if things go well a higher number of cavities can be chosen instead since you wouldn't be tooling until after the campaign... but it gives you an option for a lower volume at lower tooling cost.
Note this again wasn't with PVC, but just sharing this in case it's helpful! I would be happy to talk about things behind the scenes Tre, although I have a feeling you have more relevant contacts that have tooled for PVC. But for a monster that you can sell at quite a high cost, you don't need the cost-per-part to be nearly so low, so could get away with a 1 or 2 cavity mold and lower initial goal.
Also, if you're offering several faction starters in metal your appeal will already be much wider, so even if the goal is a similar level it will likely get more traction!
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Post by: Artemis Black
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Post by: MLaw
I feel like a tool.. I keep getting confused and thinking Redbox sells the fantasy figures with big noses.. that's Statuesque.. looks like I'm digging through RBG for some adventurers and whatnot
Also.. Tre.. I really really really really hope the faction you haven't discussed is Hobgoblins. I haven't found ANYONE that makes Hobgoblins that don't suck... Even the upcoming ones from Reaper are kinda "meh"...
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Post by: Da Boss
Maybe a little OT but I use LOTR Uruks as Hobgoblins. I think they work pretty well in the role.
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Post by: RiTides
I'm guessing it's more far afield than that - I can't see hobgoblins "making people's heads pop" like Tre said above!
My favorite hobgoblins are from Heresy miniatures, btw - in spoilers below:
My favorite pure goblins are all Tre's, though, particularly the Bonebacks since they're a little bigger than his actual goblins, so more like regular goblin sized
The Heresy ones above are extremely tall for a goblin, so even though they're not listed as hobgoblins, that's what they should be called, imo!
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Post by: MLaw
 RiTides wrote:I'm guessing it's more far afield than that - I can't see hobgoblins "making people's heads pop" like Tre said above!
My favorite hobgoblins are from Heresy miniatures, btw - in spoilers below:
My favorite pure goblins are all Tre's, though, particularly the Bonebacks since they're a little bigger than his actual goblins, so more like regular goblin sized
The Heresy ones above are extremely tall for a goblin, so even though they're not listed as hobgoblins, that's what they should be called, imo!
I agree on the heads pop.. although.. it would probably have to be something pretty crazy to get a massive reaction.. OR.. something really popular that everyone else has already done but would prefer Tre's version of..
Thanks for the suggestion. I like to throw Andy business when I can but I'm trying to find ones that look more like the more modern interpretations from D&D. Goblins, Hobgoblins, Bugbears.. there's actually a kind of progression. Unlike GW's fluff where goblins and orcs are related(ish).
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Post by: Da Boss
Tre's Bonebacks are the only Goblins of his that I don't have. I must order some from Hasslefree when the second set come back in stock!
I love the smaller goblins he does though. They're on my "to paint" list for the second half of this year. Once I get a skin tone worked out for them.
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Post by: Artemis Black
Da Boss wrote:Tre's Bonebacks are the only Goblins of his that I don't have. I must order some from Hasslefree when the second set come back in stock!
I love the smaller goblins he does though. They're on my "to paint" list for the second half of this year. Once I get a skin tone worked out for them.
There's actually another 4 bonebacks, the original ones, that we plan on bringing back, plus a boneback spellcaster.
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Post by: RiTides
Whaaaat!? That spellcaster! I have all 8 bonebacks, but didn't even know that model existed.
Is there any way at all to buy one? I'm actually sending out my bonebacks to be painted as part of a converted abyssal dwarf army next week, and would love to include that one!
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Post by: Artemis Black
RiTides wrote:Whaaaat!? That spellcaster! I have all 8 bonebacks, but didn't even know that model existed.
Is there any way at all to buy one? I'm actually sending out my bonebacks to be painted as part of a converted abyssal dwarf army next week, and would love to include that one!
There are 12 bonebacks, the 4 I mentioned were out at the same time as the spellcaster.
I'll see if we have any spare. PM incoming.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
weren't the bear riders bonebacks too?
I've got the rest but they were always out of stock whenever I remembered to try buying them anywhere
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Post by: MindwormGames
 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:weren't the bear riders bonebacks too? I've got the rest but they were always out of stock whenever I remembered to try buying them anywhere
Yea, there was a boneback riding a bear.
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Post by: Artemis Black
Yup, working on resurrecting that too
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Post by: RiTides
Ah I totally forgot how many sculpts there were! I had nabbed 20 and the bear rider, will definitely post up pics in this thread when they are painted shortly (not by me, but that's a good thing )
Would love to include the spellcaster in that batch so here's hoping! Replied to the PM Artemis and if you are able to resurrect the other boneback sculpts that aren't currently being offered, I would love to get more. That bear rider is one of my all-time favorite minis!
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Post by: tre manor
you know I have always intedned to expand the goblins again with more bonebacks. The bear rider was suppoed to be unique though.
Maybe I could revisit that idea again.
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Post by: RiTides
Well I would certainly not be opposed . But I do think resurrecting your old sculpts, and then focusing on the new universe and new factions you have sculpted and come up with for this project (any name pending other than "SDSP" ) is the way to go. Those mutants have gotten a fantastic response!
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