CrownAxe wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
They were, however, the go-to Troop choice.

Indeed, they've actually lost utility. Without summoning, they're just an Objective-scoring Mana battery.

Has anything said they lost summoning? If not BRB says they have Malefic iirc.

The Magnus FAQ

Ahhhh ok. Well, considering summoning is built into them now, its not a huge nerf.

It's ok. Do a 9 herald formation added to 9 screamers, give them IWND and just clown around for a while. Have Fateweaver, Be'Lakor and a LoC running around with em, throwing out aerial tactical nukes and pink horrors as the batteries.

Let's also not forget that the lore of Change does have a Conjuration power, so Horrors can still summon Screamers or Tz Chariots. Not great, but still useful and annoying.

Plus imagine the look on an opponent's face when he kills the Blue Horror unit in his phase, only for the Brimstone Horror unit created to generate Gaze and subsequently blow up his Knight. Priceless

So reading this thread all I can think is .... chaos finally.... for the first time in 15+ years, get a single op unit.... and people start crying? Whut???

 Formosa wrote:
So reading this thread all I can think is .... chaos finally.... for the first time in 15+ years, get a single op unit.... and people start crying? Whut???

no, no. Not OP. Chaos finally get a P unit.


Edit: well, okay it remains to be seen

nareik wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
So reading this thread all I can think is .... chaos finally.... for the first time in 15+ years, get a single op unit.... and people start crying? Whut???

no, no. Not OP. Chaos finally get a P unit.


Edit: well, okay it remains to be seen

Haha true true

Magnus IS strong. Very strong. First of all, he knows enough blessings alone to get himself to godmode. Siphon magic first, force second, there you have your 2++ rerollable save with two WC1 powers out of the 6 he can cast. He also has two str D shots, not just one, and one of those is a beam. And he has more goodies in the form of infernal gateway, doombolt and bolt of change. He can have a very terrifying mid-range psychic dakka phase. That being said, he DOES cost two wraithknights worth of points, therefore he should be twice as terrifying as a wraithknight. And I believe he is where he should be. Playing him as a mid-range/melee threat, maybe as a shield in front of your more frail units will be his natural position. That being said, even with a 2++ rerollable, I would not send him against a D-thirster or a str D melee gargantuan. Regardless of what the fluff says, he cannot "rip a wraithknight to shreds" and all it takes is a lucky 6 roll on a D table to remove him from the game.

Magnus is a force to be reckoned with in the Thousand Son list, but not because of his stats or his str D attacks but by the way he binds the army together and enables combos. One of the strongest things TS lists can do now is cast 2-3 "Siphon Magic" powers at the beginning of the psychic phase. Once you get to three casts, you enjoy your practically unlimited warp charges, as any spell cast with 3 dice will refresh its charges to the other wizards. And having mr Magnus start this kind of dance with his standard known Siphon magic on a 2+ is the best way to make your opponents miserable.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Magnus IS strong. Very strong. First of all, he knows enough blessings alone to get himself to godmode. Siphon magic first, force second, there you have your 2++ rerollable save with two WC1 powers out of the 6 he can cast... One of the strongest things TS lists can do now is cast 2-3 "Siphon Magic" powers at the beginning of the psychic phase. Once you get to three casts, you enjoy your practically unlimited warp charges, as any spell cast with 3 dice will refresh its charges to the other wizards. And having mr Magnus start this kind of dance with his standard known Siphon magic on a 2+ is the best way to make your opponents miserable.

First, Blessing of Tzeentch is a Special Rule, as such it cannot stack with itself. So if Magnus uses Force then Siphon Magic he only gets the +1 to his invul save from Force not Siphon Magic.

Second, Siphon Magic can cascade as you said, but you are still limited by your ML and all of your Sorcs can perils. It can make for a nice "reserve" for Magnus or Arhiman but other units (Rubrics and Scarab Occult Terminators specifically) wont benefit as much from this power if at all. If you run the TS Grand Coven you do get the extra power attempt and it should ALWAYS be used for Force or some other Blessing that effects the unit. I can see HQ Sorcs using Siphon Magic but only under certain conditions. Personally not really too impressed with it, but I would totally take it over Boon of Mutation any day.

BomBomHotdog wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Magnus IS strong. Very strong. First of all, he knows enough blessings alone to get himself to godmode. Siphon magic first, force second, there you have your 2++ rerollable save with two WC1 powers out of the 6 he can cast... One of the strongest things TS lists can do now is cast 2-3 "Siphon Magic" powers at the beginning of the psychic phase. Once you get to three casts, you enjoy your practically unlimited warp charges, as any spell cast with 3 dice will refresh its charges to the other wizards. And having mr Magnus start this kind of dance with his standard known Siphon magic on a 2+ is the best way to make your opponents miserable.

First, Blessing of Tzeentch is a Special Rule, as such it cannot stack with itself. So if Magnus uses Force then Siphon Magic he only gets the +1 to his invul save from Force not Siphon Magic.

Second, Siphon Magic can cascade as you said, but you are still limited by your ML and all of your Sorcs can perils. It can make for a nice "reserve" for Magnus or Arhiman but other units (Rubrics and Scarab Occult Terminators specifically) wont benefit as much from this power if at all. If you run the TS Grand Coven you do get the extra power attempt and it should ALWAYS be used for Force or some other Blessing that effects the unit. I can see HQ Sorcs using Siphon Magic but only under certain conditions. Personally not really too impressed with it, but I would totally take it over Boon of Mutation any day.

Limited to ML+1 in a grand coven. I was thinking of Rehati War Sect to be honest. Forgo all non character units, purchase an msu War Cabal and go full sorcerers with spell familiars harnessing on a 3+. Therefore I would have enough spells to keep the Siphon magic cascade going. Even with only rolling the "mandatory" tzeentch spell, with 6-7 sorcs rolling I would get at least one more Siphon magic to keep it going. Then choose telepathy and ectomancy powers for the awesome primaries. I would then proceed to one die cast most of the stuff on a 3+ rerollable. Stack up dice on magnus, get your double D attacks going. Maybe add a cyclopia cabal in grand games for more free dice.

So if we did boycott Magnus from chaos armies, what will we also boycott from marines, eldar, and tau? Free transports? Wraithknight? Taunar?

Darkmind wrote:
So if we did boycott Magnus from chaos armies, what will we also boycott from marines, eldar, and tau? Free transports? Wraithknight? Taunar?

"That ship has sailed" - said Traditio.

But of course, now the Magnus ship has sailed, too, so Traditio, is, in a word, screwed.

Or you know, don't get super salty when CSM finally get something to help against GMC and FMC. It's both super fluffy and a truckload of points.

People like to whine way to much. I don't even have a real Chaos army yet and I'm just so damn excited for all the chaos players I know!

I agree with the above post , also the thing with power creep is the models that used to get stick for being used, now arnt as bad so can be used more without getting stick.

its really down to the comunity to balance games if it was as balanced as chess there would be a whole new thing created that would be handicaps . Because some people will dominate your local club and always win .then the only way he will get games is if he gives his opponate more points ect . Which will create whole threads on whats aceptable and how do you measure your own handicap .

The game can be massivly unblanced just talk about the list you have before the game and make adjustments .
Again i do relise that some people will cling to the rules and not allow extra points to be used and its a big part the hobby building the strongest list .

I would really like to see threads giving army list ratings so we can see good match ups. And if your playing a top tier army against a bottom tier army just dont be that guy or at least be humble about it . Theres nothing worse than being beaten by somebody useing an op list against a fluffy one and the op guy saying its not op all you have to do is ........

ian wrote:

I would really like to see threads giving army list ratings so we can see good match ups. And if your playing a top tier army against a bottom tier army just dont be that guy or at least be humble about it . Theres nothing worse than being beaten by somebody useing an op list against a fluffy one and the op guy saying its not op all you have to do is ........

They'd also require a lot of detalisation cause tourney eldar would smash fun eldar for half the cost. And tourney CSM (magic deathstars) would murderise 5 times it's cost in fluffy csm.

I agree but if at least its more of a known thing then hopfully people can reference there list against it and think hang on mybe a grav heavy list against nids with monsters creatures is way to strong . And i should save my grav list for wraithknights

Reavas wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Yeah, I see that a lot of people are (finally?) getting wound up over the Pink - Blue - Brimstone thing. Heh. I doubt the hard counter comes out immediately. Gotta let Chaos have a day in the sun.

Daemons are one of the best armies in the game. they didn't need a buff

Daemons in general are good, horrors were always lacking in regards to their usefulness

You've got to be kidding. They are a troop infantry unit that is hard to destroy with shooting that puts out more than decent psychic shooting or generates tons of warp-dice for other units that need them. Statwise they apear to be quite tame but when you load them into daemon lists - they are the most useful support unit in the game.

Let’s also not forget people. Magnus might make CSM competitive but what he does to daemon list is what you should be concerned about. With the amount of WC dice Daemon lists put out – it well within reason that Magnus will be able to cast 5 offensive spells a turn (and since he gets spells off on a 2+ there will still be WC dice left over to do daemon housekeeping spells like cursed earth and summon some units.) This will be comparable to an anchored flying stormsurge moving over your army – obliterating gak at will with no chance at retaliation (lets just hope you don’t actually have a storm surge in you list because then it will be comparable to 2 of them.) With my experience fighting daemons – if your strategy is to destroy his horrors in a few turns – you have already lost the game. Horrors are actually really hard to kill and they have only become better in this regard.

 JimOnMars wrote:
. . . Traditio, is, in a word, screwed.

If that were the case, maybe he'd be a little less whiny.

I just think it's amusing that he's gone from hating on everything he's already lost against, to hating on things that he's going to lose against.

I like how he's flipped from demanding that FMC's get armour capped at 4+ to nerf them to complaining that it's unfair.

Darkmind wrote:
So if we did boycott Magnus from chaos armies, what will we also boycott from marines, eldar, and tau? Free transports? Wraithknight? Taunar?

He gets it.

So, long ago it hit that critical point where Traditio refuses to admit he's wrong, and everyone disagreeing with him, so he just stops posting. Any guesses on how long until a lock comes along? I'm guessing by the 23rd page.

 Wolfblade wrote:
So, long ago it hit that critical point where Traditio refuses to admit he's wrong, and everyone disagreeing with him, so he just stops posting. Any guesses on how long until a lock comes along? I'm guessing by the 23rd page.

Should we make a poll for it?

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
So, long ago it hit that critical point where Traditio refuses to admit he's wrong, and everyone disagreeing with him, so he just stops posting. Any guesses on how long until a lock comes along? I'm guessing by the 23rd page.

Should we make a poll for it?

Only if its worded in such a way as to confuse others into selecting the option that supports my stance. If it doesn't work, I'll make a new poll with even more confusing wording.

Do we get to ignore the majority of votes if they don't vote the way that we want them to? OMG, the majority is trolling....

At least I've never made a BA poll.

 Wolfblade wrote:
So, long ago it hit that critical point where Traditio refuses to admit he's wrong, and everyone disagreeing with him, so he just stops posting. Any guesses on how long until a lock comes along? I'm guessing by the 23rd page.

If only he were the only one. I can name 5 other users who do the exact same thing.

OT, I agree, we should only boycott Magnus if we boycott Wraithknights, Stormsurges, and all the other crazy batgak that gets put out. That, or roll with the new nonsense.

 EnTyme wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
So, long ago it hit that critical point where Traditio refuses to admit he's wrong, and everyone disagreeing with him, so he just stops posting. Any guesses on how long until a lock comes along? I'm guessing by the 23rd page.

Should we make a poll for it?

Only if its worded in such a way as to confuse others into selecting the option that supports my stance. If it doesn't work, I'll make a new poll with even more confusing wording.

Of course, and just make sure there's like 8 poll options, and 5 of them favor your side, 2 are neutral positions, and then one that mildly disagrees with you for a small reason (but otherwise agrees with you). Obviously leave out the option most people might select.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Do we get to ignore the majority of votes if they don't vote the way that we want them to? OMG, the majority is trolling....

Well obviously. And even if they weren't the minority is a large minority that still needs to be catered to!

Martel732 wrote:
At least I've never made a BA poll.

You won a decurion with angel's blade. Got no right to complain now.

 koooaei wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At least I've never made a BA poll.

You won a decurion with angel's blade. Got no right to complain now.

(For the curious and as a point of curiosity out of (theoretically) 22 standalone 40k Codexes three (SM, CSM, Daemons) have multiple meta-detachments, nine (Eldar, Guard, BA, DA, Wolves, Necrons, Deathwatch, Genestealer Cult, Tau) have one meta-detachment, and ten (GK, Inquisition, Cult Mechanicus, Skitarii, MT, Sisters, Orks, DE, Harlequins, Tyranids) have no meta-detachments.)

(Imperial Knights and Renegade Knights have been excluded because cost-wise giving them a meta-detachment would amount to giving each single Knight an extra special rule, Thousand Sons and KDK have been excluded as special cases of CSM/Daemons, and the Assassinorium has been excluded because nobody in their right mind would try to field them as a stand-alone army. Fifteen FW lists have been excluded, since FW designs their armies to work without meta-detachments including them would skew the data without giving any information.)

I am sooooooooooooooo buying him

 koooaei wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At least I've never made a BA poll.

You won a decurion with angel's blade. Got no right to complain now.

It's a really awful decurion in comparison, though.

Martel732 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At least I've never made a BA poll.

You won a decurion with angel's blade. Got no right to complain now.

It's a really awful decurion in comparison, though.

Oh, boo-hoo. Spend a week playing Grey Knights where the only formation your army's got has a minimum cost of over 2,300pts and permits you to use exactly one non-tax model and then start whining at me that your free stuff isn't as nice as other peoples'.

That's just it. There's no free stuff in the BA decurion.

And that's why you should play Red Marine Gladius, not BA...

I could probably do that, actually. I would just need the vanilla codex, that radioactive cheese book.

Martel732 wrote:
radioactive cheese

Careful with that stuff, you might grow nipple horns.

Magnus, when it's really, really cold outside!

Getting back to Red Marines vs BA - it's a question of how important winning is vs theme.

Magnus sounds like he was designed by Timmy: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709799.page

Id have to say my favorite part of the Magnus model is the wings. Not only do they have a nice aesthetic look but the way they go into the back of the torso is perfect. Once I get him primed for painting I wont have to worry about pinning or magnetizing the wings for transport. They slide in and out easily and stick no problem.

Hate the horn nipples. Going to green stuff the chest plate so its smooth. Going to keep the horns for when I build my TS Renegade Knight ally.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Magnus, when it's really, really cold outside!

Getting back to Red Marines vs BA - it's a question of how important winning is vs theme.

If its not cold, he is just REALLY excited. Like he could cut terminator armor with those things. Really he only has 5 attacks, those 2 diamond cutters are his last 2.

Double horny for furry vengeance.

Martel732 wrote:
That's just it. There's no free stuff in the BA decurion.

...Start over. How many points are you paying for +I on the charge, 6" scout moves on everyone (which stack with real Scout, so your Lucifer Armoured Task Force gets to go 18" before the game starts), +1A for all your Death Company, rerollable Reserves starting turn one and d6" scatter for your Veterans/Terminators, and the ability to make all your Dreadnaughts get a free phase of attacking at the start of one turn?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's just it. There's no free stuff in the BA decurion.

...Start over. How many points are you paying for +I on the charge, 6" scout moves on everyone (which stack with real Scout, so your Lucifer Armoured Task Force gets to go 18" before the game starts), +1A for all your Death Company, rerollable Reserves starting turn one and d6" scatter for your Veterans/Terminators, and the ability to make all your Dreadnaughts get a free phase of attacking at the start of one turn?

Still more than standard Space Marines, not even including the free stuff. Death Company are WAY more expensive, and most of the reserves manipulators were rules Blood Angels had in previous codex without having to field a massive 'gladius tax'. The Blood Angels remain one of the weakest SM armies, until you scale up to about 2500 point games - but that isn't very helpful in "competitive" 40k.

Looks like you got a lot of those rules wrong too in fact.

 pumaman1 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Magnus, when it's really, really cold outside!

Getting back to Red Marines vs BA - it's a question of how important winning is vs theme.

If its not cold, he is just REALLY excited. Like he could cut terminator armor with those things. Really he only has 5 attacks, those 2 diamond cutters are his last 2.

It's both. He is excited to be on cold, cold Fenris.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's just it. There's no free stuff in the BA decurion.

...Start over. How many points are you paying for +I on the charge, 6" scout moves on everyone (which stack with real Scout, so your Lucifer Armoured Task Force gets to go 18" before the game starts), +1A for all your Death Company, rerollable Reserves starting turn one and d6" scatter for your Veterans/Terminators, and the ability to make all your Dreadnaughts get a free phase of attacking at the start of one turn?

Still more than standard Space Marines, not even including the free stuff. Death Company are WAY more expensive, and most of the reserves manipulators were rules Blood Angels had in previous codex without having to field a massive 'gladius tax'. The Blood Angels remain one of the weakest SM armies, until you scale up to about 2500 point games - but that isn't very helpful in "competitive" 40k.

Looks like you got a lot of those rules wrong too in fact.

I'm challenging the assertion that Blood Angels have 'no free stuff' by comparison to armies that have no formations, not that their formation benefits are worse than the vanilla Marine book. We know their stuff is worse than getting free transports. I'm saying it's better than being GK or Orks and not having any free stuff at all.

Also I'm skeptical about your position on Death Company; they may be 20pts/model, but find me another Marine unit that's packing a Veteran statline, Fearless, Furious Charge, FNP, Rage, and a formation that gives a fairly persistent +1A for anywhere near that cost. (When Death Company get the melee weapon price drop that's been slowly rippling through Marine books and hasn't quite caught up to SW/BA yet they're going to be challenging Wulfen for the title of strongest melee unit in the Imperium, as is they're just good.)

I'm looking at the Red Thirst edition BA book and describing individual formation benefits as well as detachment benefits. I'm fairly certain I'm not reading any of them incorrectly (though as of the current FAQ your Fast Super-Scouting Land Raiders aren't giving you charges on units 13" into the enemy deployment zone turn one, so that's a downside).

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's just it. There's no free stuff in the BA decurion.

...Start over. How many points are you paying for +I on the charge, 6" scout moves on everyone (which stack with real Scout, so your Lucifer Armoured Task Force gets to go 18" before the game starts), +1A for all your Death Company, rerollable Reserves starting turn one and d6" scatter for your Veterans/Terminators, and the ability to make all your Dreadnaughts get a free phase of attacking at the start of one turn?

Still more than standard Space Marines, not even including the free stuff. Death Company are WAY more expensive, and most of the reserves manipulators were rules Blood Angels had in previous codex without having to field a massive 'gladius tax'. The Blood Angels remain one of the weakest SM armies, until you scale up to about 2500 point games - but that isn't very helpful in "competitive" 40k.

Looks like you got a lot of those rules wrong too in fact.

I'm challenging the assertion that Blood Angels have 'no free stuff' by comparison to armies that have no formations, not that their formation benefits are worse than the vanilla Marine book. We know their stuff is worse than getting free transports. I'm saying it's better than being GK or Orks and not having any free stuff at all.

Also I'm skeptical about your position on Death Company; they may be 20pts/model, but find me another Marine unit that's packing a Veteran statline, Fearless, Furious Charge, FNP, Rage, and a formation that gives a fairly persistent +1A for anywhere near that cost. (When Death Company get the melee weapon price drop that's been slowly rippling through Marine books and hasn't quite caught up to SW/BA yet they're going to be challenging Wulfen for the title of strongest melee unit in the Imperium, as is they're just good.)

I'm looking at the Red Thirst edition BA book and describing individual formation benefits as well as detachment benefits. I'm fairly certain I'm not reading any of them incorrectly (though as of the current FAQ your Fast Super-Scouting Land Raiders aren't giving you charges on units 13" into the enemy deployment zone turn one, so that's a downside).

If you're comparing BA to Orks and Grey Knights then that's just silly - the BA JUST got an update, neither of those codex have (yet) and they're totally different animals. As for Death Company - IF they get the melee weapon price drop which seems unlikely as they JUST got an update, and regardless they don't have it now, you can't judge them on possible futures. Also the "disordered charge" mechanic does negate several of their bonuses, something that regular Space Marines don't have to worry about.

And the DC formation, which is the cheapest of the BA "core" formations is still really expensive and requires a DC dreadnought. The +1A is only if they stick close to their Chaplain which makes no sense for a drop assault type army.

None of the dreadnoughts get an extra attack on turn 1 unless they all deploy on the table, at which point only the shooty dreads benefit, not the "BA" dreads.

Finally I challenge you to actually build an 1850 (or 1650 the currently trending tournament size game) which stacks those benefits and is even a remotely balanced force. This codex is amazing at 2500+ but otherwise, no ...still the worst of the Space Marines.

We're arguing different points. Martel asserted that 'there's no free stuff in the BA decurion'. I'm trying to point out that there's a lot of free stuff and a lot of it's pretty useful.

You're trying to argue that it's still worse than the other Marine books. I'm not disputing that point.

(As for the 'just got an update' problem, the last time CSM got an update was the same time as the last BA update and they're getting another one now, so...)

 AnomanderRake wrote:
We're arguing different points. Martel asserted that 'there's no free stuff in the BA decurion'. I'm trying to point out that there's a lot of free stuff and a lot of it's pretty useful.

You're trying to argue that it's still worse than the other Marine books. I'm not disputing that point.

(As for the 'just got an update' problem, the last time CSM got an update was the same time as the last BA update and they're getting another one now, so...)

Ok gotcha -- though I'd say the CSM "Legions" is also quite a different animal than previous CSM updates.

As far as your other point goes -- the reason I tend to agree with Martel is because of the enormous 'tax' on the BA decurions. You absolutely get some benefits and special rules (no free units anyway), but they come at a great cost and they lose Objective Secured as well.

Like I said, building a 1650 list (or even 1850) that can actually take advantage of the BA "Free stuff" is really the challenge though.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
We're arguing different points. Martel asserted that 'there's no free stuff in the BA decurion'. I'm trying to point out that there's a lot of free stuff and a lot of it's pretty useful.

You're trying to argue that it's still worse than the other Marine books. I'm not disputing that point.

(As for the 'just got an update' problem, the last time CSM got an update was the same time as the last BA update and they're getting another one now, so...)

Ok gotcha -- though I'd say the CSM "Legions" is also quite a different animal than previous CSM updates.

As far as your other point goes -- the reason I tend to agree with Martel is because of the enormous 'tax' on the BA decurions. You absolutely get some benefits and special rules (no free units anyway), but they come at a great cost and they lose Objective Secured as well.

Like I said, building a 1650 list (or even 1850) that can actually take advantage of the BA "Free stuff" is really the challenge though.

The Death Company metaformation is quite a lot better than the base Angel's Blade one, if you wanted to use the Angel's Blade detachment I will concede you'd almost certainly be better off dropping the meta-formation and building a multiple-detachment army out of the component formations.

Building an army out of the component formations still gets you quite a lot of free stuff. And within the Death Company metaformation the wall of Fast Flamestorm cannons with 18" of Scout move are quite capable of making scatterbikes s**t themselves and run for the hills.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
We're arguing different points. Martel asserted that 'there's no free stuff in the BA decurion'. I'm trying to point out that there's a lot of free stuff and a lot of it's pretty useful.

You're trying to argue that it's still worse than the other Marine books. I'm not disputing that point.

(As for the 'just got an update' problem, the last time CSM got an update was the same time as the last BA update and they're getting another one now, so...)

Ok gotcha -- though I'd say the CSM "Legions" is also quite a different animal than previous CSM updates.

As far as your other point goes -- the reason I tend to agree with Martel is because of the enormous 'tax' on the BA decurions. You absolutely get some benefits and special rules (no free units anyway), but they come at a great cost and they lose Objective Secured as well.

Like I said, building a 1650 list (or even 1850) that can actually take advantage of the BA "Free stuff" is really the challenge though.

The Death Company metaformation is quite a lot better than the base Angel's Blade one, if you wanted to use the Angel's Blade detachment I will concede you'd almost certainly be better off dropping the meta-formation and building a multiple-detachment army out of the component formations.

Building an army out of the component formations still gets you quite a lot of free stuff. And within the Death Company metaformation the wall of Fast Flamestorm cannons with 18" of Scout move are quite capable of making scatterbikes s**t themselves and run for the hills.

More than before Angel's Blade absolutely but when you break it down... just doing component formations you lose Red Thirst, and the "free stuff" / formation special rules are on already expensive and situational units like Terminators, Sanguinary Guard, Landraiders and short-ranged Baal Predators.

The DC formation with the Baal/Landraider formation is crazy expensive. As I've said - this codex is awesome at 2500+ or higher, it's really just great - but for smaller point games, you can't build a balanced list than is truly competitive using any of the Angel's Blade stuff.

The only BA formation with truly free stuff is the Archangel sanguine wing. Which is why its still in my arsenal.

The DC formation is really not as good as everyone thinks, imo. Especially if you try to combine with something like LATF. The game has just passed DC by.

A big problem with BA, in my estimation. Is how much this edition punish's assault.

*BA not DA. Damn letters!

Unless you can get a Death Company Marine for 10 points, all those fancy rules mean pretty much nothing at 1850 points, when your opponent rolls in with a Gladius and 2260 points. This DA list won the Bay Area Open:

Lion’s Blade Strike Force
Company Master: (Warlord) Fist, Artificer Armor
Chaplain: Bike, Auspex
Tactical Squad: Rhino, Grav-Cannon,
Tactical Squad: Rhino, Multi-Melta
Tactical Squad: Razorback (HB), Heavy Bolter
Tactical Squad: Razorback (HB)
Tactical Squad: Razorback (HB)
Tactical Squad: Pod, Melta/Combi-Melta
Assault Squad: 2x Flamers, Pod
Assault Squad: 2x Flamers, Pod
Devastator Squad: Rhino, Grav-Cannon
Devastator Squad: Rhino, Grav-Cannon
Scouts
Ravenwing Strike Force
Techmarine: Bike, Auspex
Ravenwing Command Squad: 5 Black Knights, Apothecary, 5 Plasma Talons, Grenade Launcher
Ravenwing Black Knight Squad: 5 Black Knights, Huntmaster, 5 Plasma Talons, Grenade Launcher
Ravenwing Darkshroud

He rolled 2,260 points in an 1.850 tournament using ITC rules. Everything in the Lion Blade detachment received Grim Resolve, meaning full BS in Overwatch. Then all the Ravenwing bikes get a +1 BS for shooting at the same unit another Ravenwing unit has hit. All units in the Battle Demi-Companies have Objective Secured- so that's all the Tactical Squads, Assault Squads, Devastaror Squads, Scouts, Ravenwing Bikes...

Death Company has a Vet statline (what, 2 attacks makes for a Vet statline? OK...), Fearless, Furious Charge, FNP, Rage, Relentless, and +1 attack. What's telling here is the rules not present: Objective Secured, any kind of movement bonus, any kind of good close combat (no power weapons, fists, rending, anything to make them ignore armor saves...) BA have to pay for everything. DC are awesome when they charge, but if they don't charge, then they are a very expensive Space Marine unit with FNP and fearless. They can't even take an objective or contest one vs. someone with Objective Secured.

Imperials taking over a thread about Magnus the Red, whining about whose list is worse while they are SM. Right.

 Tamwulf wrote:


He rolled 2,260 points in an 1.850 tournament using ITC rules. Everything in the Lion Blade detachment received Grim Resolve, meaning full BS in Overwatch. Then all the Ravenwing bikes get a +1 BS for shooting at the same unit another Ravenwing unit has hit. All units in the Battle Demi-Companies have Objective Secured- so that's all the Tactical Squads, Assault Squads, Devastaror Squads, Scouts, Ravenwing Bikes...

A bunch of that information is incorrect. The Lion's Blade gets full BS Overwatch from the Supreme Fire Discipline rule, not Grim Resolve. The Ravenwing Strike Force is not an auxiliary to the Lion's Blade, but an separate detachment, so they don't get Supreme Fire Discipline or Objective Secured. They also don't get any BS boosts for shooting at units that have been shot at by other Ravenwing units. That is a rule in the Ravenwing Attack Squadron, which consists of a Bike Squad (NOT Black Knights) and a Land Speeder. If the Bike Squad shoots at a unit the Land Speeder has shot at, it gets +1 BS, but that's not the same as RW units daisy-chaining BS boosts to each other.

Which is not to say Blood Angels didn't get shafted with their Battle Company formation, but it seems like somebody always has to get the shaft from GW.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:

Which is not to say Blood Angels didn't get shafted with their Battle Company formation, but it seems like somebody always has to get the shaft from GW.

...and this shafted guy is NEVER imperial. It's always either Tyranid, Ork or Chaos. Don't fret that your dudes don't have broken stuff when other armies don't even have stuff in the first place...