Pouncey wrote:


Now imagine that Emperor Titans are standard features in army lists, and every army you're facing features something similar, and the game is written to assume they'll be on every battlefield.

.

I'd either figure out their Achilles heel, or I wouldn't play at 4000 points. It seems like some of you guys haven't figured out that winning is only a small part of the fun of 40k...

 Pouncey wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:


Cool.

So if I get, like, an Emperor Titan, and I drop it into a 2000pt game, you'd be fine with that? Me having a 5ft tall model on the table?

Imperator titans are 4000 points. Yes I'd be fine with that in a 4000 point game as long as the model was painted and based. I may not play that person again after that as long as that was in their list, but It would be amazing to see my army on the same table as an incredible model like that, and try my luck against it, just once, even if I got stomped.

Now imagine that Emperor Titans are standard features in army lists, and every army you're facing features something similar, and the game is written to assume they'll be on every battlefield.

It's alright cause everyone will have one then.
Except those xenos, but non-Imperials aren't that important at the moment either it seems.

n0t_u - Back off my nids
I enjoy the use of my over priced biotitans thank you very much!
Even if they have no strength D or ability to survive lol.

 Weboflies wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:


Now imagine that Emperor Titans are standard features in army lists, and every army you're facing features something similar, and the game is written to assume they'll be on every battlefield.

.

I'd either figure out their Achilles heel, or I wouldn't play at 4000 points. It seems like some of you guys haven't figured out that winning is only a small part of the fun of 40k...

4000pts is a standard game size though. People treat 1850pts games as really low points, so almost no one plays them.

Except 1850 is pretty much tournament standard size in most places, including here.


"big games" tend to be 2.5k+

 Pouncey wrote:


I'm okay with Primarchs in Apocalypse games, where battles get that ridiculously big.

Not in standard games.

That's the thing about 40k, and life, really... You don't have to be fine with it. There's tens or hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of players out there, and the only one who cares what you're ok with is you... just sayin'. #perspective

Nothing stopping you from organizing games with whatever restrictions or house rules you like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:


4000pts is a standard game size though. People treat 1850pts games as really low points, so almost no one plays them.

Where? Are you just making things up so you can continue to argue? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I've never even heard of anyone playing 4000 except on the internet as a one-off lark. Where on earth are you gonna play a 4000 point pick up game? Get real.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:
Yes I absolutely do think they belong in the same game. One of the coolest things about the 40k universe is the breadth of scale in the game. you can play everything from a grot or scarab up to a lord of Skulls or Warlord Titan. LoW piieces are awesome and people want to play them. If you were to break them off into a separate game with no little infantry guys for them to smoosh it wouldn't be any fun. One of the best things about the Epic game of the 90's was not the titans, but all the tiny little tanks and soldiers. Taking down a super heavy with infantry, if you can pull it off is a huge rush! The points just need to be reflective of the power level. TAC lists just need to adjust for the possibility of facing this kind of stuff., and if you've got a themed list, you might get stomped. That's been the case since Rogue Trader, and always will.

As to your boycott, good luck. People will buy this, because it's an awe inspiring model, whether they bring it to pickup games or not, and a lot of players want this kind of stuff avaialable to them in their lists, so This is a reality that you may as well resign your self to dealing with. If you just can't, wouldn't your efforts would be better spent doing something more positive like organizing a campaign, league, or tournament that doesn't allow LoW? There's a million different ways to play 40k.

Cool.

So if I get, like, an Emperor Titan, and I drop it into a 2000pt game, you'd be fine with that? Me having a 5ft tall model on the table?

Actually, an Emperor Titan model would be just a hair shy of three feet. Which is still freakin' huge when in 28mm "Heroic"

 Pouncey wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:


Cool.

So if I get, like, an Emperor Titan, and I drop it into a 2000pt game, you'd be fine with that? Me having a 5ft tall model on the table?

Imperator titans are 4000 points. Yes I'd be fine with that in a 4000 point game as long as the model was painted and based. I may not play that person again after that as long as that was in their list, but It would be amazing to see my army on the same table as an incredible model like that, and try my luck against it, just once, even if I got stomped.

Now imagine that Emperor Titans are standard features in army lists, and every army you're facing features something similar, and the game is written to assume they'll be on every battlefield.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
What reason is there to not be fine with it?

The fact that they exist in the game doesn't force you to play against them... But does allow those who want to, to do so.

I'm okay with Primarchs in Apocalypse games, where battles get that ridiculously big.

Not in standard games.

So what if they are?

If there's that much an obsession with small games, Kill team has you covered.

 Jackal wrote:
Except 1850 is pretty much tournament standard size in most places, including here.


"big games" tend to be 2.5k+

This is a hypothetical situation 15 years in the future where scale creep makes Emperor Titans a part of standard games.

Please stop bringing current standards into it.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:


Actually, an Emperor Titan model would be just a hair shy of three feet. Which is still freakin' huge when in 28mm "Heroic"

So big you would probably want to play on a table more than 4' deep. That would be so awesome...

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:
Yes I absolutely do think they belong in the same game. One of the coolest things about the 40k universe is the breadth of scale in the game. you can play everything from a grot or scarab up to a lord of Skulls or Warlord Titan. LoW piieces are awesome and people want to play them. If you were to break them off into a separate game with no little infantry guys for them to smoosh it wouldn't be any fun. One of the best things about the Epic game of the 90's was not the titans, but all the tiny little tanks and soldiers. Taking down a super heavy with infantry, if you can pull it off is a huge rush! The points just need to be reflective of the power level. TAC lists just need to adjust for the possibility of facing this kind of stuff., and if you've got a themed list, you might get stomped. That's been the case since Rogue Trader, and always will.

As to your boycott, good luck. People will buy this, because it's an awe inspiring model, whether they bring it to pickup games or not, and a lot of players want this kind of stuff avaialable to them in their lists, so This is a reality that you may as well resign your self to dealing with. If you just can't, wouldn't your efforts would be better spent doing something more positive like organizing a campaign, league, or tournament that doesn't allow LoW? There's a million different ways to play 40k.

Cool.

So if I get, like, an Emperor Titan, and I drop it into a 2000pt game, you'd be fine with that? Me having a 5ft tall model on the table?

Actually, an Emperor Titan model would be just a hair shy of three feet. Which is still freakin' huge when in 28mm "Heroic"

Well, it's tall enough that players can't see over it.

You did see that 600,000pts Apocalypse game with the two Emperor Titans, right?

Ah i see, let me just grab my crystal ball :-)

And its because you said 4k was a standard game.
Scale creep does not effect the standard points of games.
It simply makes the models in the armies stronger.


So in 50 years time around 2k will still be the normal game, much as it always has been.
The units will simply be stronger for their price.


Now, care to actually pick a valid point rather than ideas plucked from thin air?

 Jackal wrote:
n0t_u - Back off my nids
I enjoy the use of my over priced biotitans thank you very much!
Even if they have no strength D or ability to survive lol.

Really wish they fixed those so I got to see them more often. I've maybe seen one biotitan (was a flying one) to the like 2-3 warhounds, reaver, revenant and thunderhawk I can remember.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

So what if they are?

If there's that much an obsession with small games, Kill team has you covered.

Yes.

And if my involvement in this thread were about my own personal situation, I wouldn't care, since none of the person I play with plays Chaos.

 Weboflies wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:


Actually, an Emperor Titan model would be just a hair shy of three feet. Which is still freakin' huge when in 28mm "Heroic"

So big you would probably want to play on a table more than 4' deep. That would be so awesome...

Agreed. I love seeing epic huge clashes of awesome amounts of armor and firepower. It really gets the ol' juices going.

I actually agree, I've never seen a 4k point game. Usually if it's larger than 2k, it's a ridiculous amount intended for apocalypse.

The flying one would be the harridan.
About the only one i really use now.
750 points for a statline less impressive than current GC's of a much cheaper price.

Lots of S10 and flying though so atleast its safe from all the strength D blasts.


Hierophant isnt worth running as its between a warhound and reaver for cost and dies far too easily.

Larger than 2k seems to usually end up as team games, 3v3 at 6k with a decent amount of few things tends to not take up all that much space. Seen more models in 1500-2k with orks.

 Jackal wrote:
Ah i see, let me just grab my crystal ball :-)

And its because you said 4k was a standard game.
Scale creep does not effect the standard points of games.
It simply makes the models in the armies stronger.


So in 50 years time around 2k will still be the normal game, much as it always has been.
The units will simply be stronger for their price.


Now, care to actually pick a valid point rather than ideas plucked from thin air?

I played WH40k 15 years ago.

Back then, Warhound Titans and Baneblades were for Apocalypse only.

The most expensive model in a standard game was a 250 point Land Raider.

And standard games were 1500pts, not 1850.

Nowadays Titans and Baneblades have their own FOC slot. And this thread is about a 600+ pts Primarch. Back about 15 years ago the estimated points cost of an appropriate Primarch was way, way more than that.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
Except 1850 is pretty much tournament standard size in most places, including here.


"big games" tend to be 2.5k+

This is a hypothetical situation 15 years in the future where scale creep makes Emperor Titans a part of standard games.

Please stop bringing current standards into it.

Seeing as 1850 has always been the standard (with 1750 being an exception now and then) You're being ridiculous.

Hell I'd like to see 2000 be a tournament standard and see what happens.

 Pouncey wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:
Yes I absolutely do think they belong in the same game. One of the coolest things about the 40k universe is the breadth of scale in the game. you can play everything from a grot or scarab up to a lord of Skulls or Warlord Titan. LoW piieces are awesome and people want to play them. If you were to break them off into a separate game with no little infantry guys for them to smoosh it wouldn't be any fun. One of the best things about the Epic game of the 90's was not the titans, but all the tiny little tanks and soldiers. Taking down a super heavy with infantry, if you can pull it off is a huge rush! The points just need to be reflective of the power level. TAC lists just need to adjust for the possibility of facing this kind of stuff., and if you've got a themed list, you might get stomped. That's been the case since Rogue Trader, and always will.

As to your boycott, good luck. People will buy this, because it's an awe inspiring model, whether they bring it to pickup games or not, and a lot of players want this kind of stuff avaialable to them in their lists, so This is a reality that you may as well resign your self to dealing with. If you just can't, wouldn't your efforts would be better spent doing something more positive like organizing a campaign, league, or tournament that doesn't allow LoW? There's a million different ways to play 40k.

Cool.

So if I get, like, an Emperor Titan, and I drop it into a 2000pt game, you'd be fine with that? Me having a 5ft tall model on the table?

Actually, an Emperor Titan model would be just a hair shy of three feet. Which is still freakin' huge when in 28mm "Heroic"

Well, it's tall enough that players can't see over it.

You did see that 600,000pts Apocalypse game with the two Emperor Titans, right?

You talking about Apocalypticon 2013 held by miniwargaming? If so, I do recall watching it. It was pretty awesome, even if it was a lot to take in.


If I also recall, those scratch-built Emperors didn't fare too well. Nor did all many of the units within their blast radius when they went up.


Bloody-freakin'-epic.

Thats because the estimated stats of each primarch were the usual bollocks ones of 10's for everything and a stack of rules.


And its called evolution.
The game has moved on over years and has progressed with the ability to cast and produce larger models.

And apocalypse games didnt exist 15 years ago, they were just large games you agreed on with other players.
Apocalypse is a more recent add on to the core rules, which has now been blended into current rules.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
Except 1850 is pretty much tournament standard size in most places, including here.


"big games" tend to be 2.5k+

This is a hypothetical situation 15 years in the future where scale creep makes Emperor Titans a part of standard games.

Please stop bringing current standards into it.

Seeing as 1850 has always been the standard (with 1750 being an exception now and then) You're being ridiculous.

Hell I'd like to see 2000 be a tournament standard and see what happens.

1500 was the standard when I started.

 Pouncey wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
Except 1850 is pretty much tournament standard size in most places, including here.


"big games" tend to be 2.5k+

This is a hypothetical situation 15 years in the future where scale creep makes Emperor Titans a part of standard games.

Please stop bringing current standards into it.

Seeing as 1850 has always been the standard (with 1750 being an exception now and then) You're being ridiculous.

Hell I'd like to see 2000 be a tournament standard and see what happens.

1500 was the standard when I started.

That's more pickup. I'm talking tournament standard (and i still do pickups at 1850, whether I bring Lychstar or a Minotaurs Space Marine army).

 Pouncey wrote:


This is a hypothetical situation 15 years in the future where scale creep makes Emperor Titans a part of standard games.

Please stop bringing current standards into it.

This is never going to happen, for a couple reasons.

-To continue, the hobby needs to be able to bring new players in who are often kids, and often working people, with out the resources or give a feth to invest in a 4000 pt 3ft tall, $500 piece of plastic.

-Even dedicated players don't all have the money, time, storage space, transportation capability for a model like that.

-at 4000 pts the amount of models you would need to fill that list if you were gonna go with a foot/ mech inf list would be completely prohibitive. Both from a perspective of time to paint/ collect, and time to finish a game.

Even if it did happen, by that time, there would be plenty of stuff out there to counter it with, not just other models of the same scale.

They're coming out with an epic scale game again, which I really look forward to. There's limits to how much farther scale creep can possibly go in 40k

Your area plays (played) some fairly low point games then as tournaments have always been around 1850.

any lower and the game has no variety, any higher and it takes too long for some armies to actually play.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
No, i'd call BS because your massively over the points limit.
Feel free to run a reaver though as that would fit.

I actually don't know the points value for an Emperor Titan. Imagine an Emperor Titan can fit into the points value of a standard game because it's been another 15 years and scale creep has made it so an Emperor Titan fits into a standard game.

Would you be fine with that?

Assuming "scale creep" has advanced to the point where Emperor Titans fit into 2000pts games I'd have armies capable of dealing with it. So, y'know... go ahead and put your eggs in that basket.

I'm gonna give up. I don't think I can convince you guys of my point.

Thats because you would need points to convince people with.

Saying "power creep" and "in the future" do not prove any points atall.

You dont seem to understand that power creep would work on all armies.
So in say 20 years time you could fit a emperor titan power model into a 2k game, you would also have counters for it from other armies.

They wouldnt however reduce the cost of a 4k model lol.

So no, power creep wouldnt make the average games higher in points to the extent its titanicus in 40k

It would simply mean you would see alot stronger units and models on the table.



Show me some valid points and i'd be happy to agree.
We all know the power creep is there, dont get me wrong.
But it doesnt have any bearing on lowering costs of large models and raising the average points of a game.

 Pouncey wrote:

I played WH40k 15 years ago.

Back then, Warhound Titans and Baneblades were for Apocalypse only.

The most expensive model in a standard game was a 250 point Land Raider.

And standard games were 1500pts, not 1850..

The standard in 2nd edition was 2000 points. Since then, it's most commonly varied between 1500, 1750 and 1850, depending on where you play.

Based on that, it's unlikely that the standard in another 15 years will be 4000 points unless the game changes significantly, at which point there is no actual basis for comparison.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:


I'm okay with Primarchs in Apocalypse games, where battles get that ridiculously big.

Not in standard games.

Then don't play against Primarchs in standard games. Done.

You're free to refuse games that you don't think you'll enjoy.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
No, i'd call BS because your massively over the points limit.
Feel free to run a reaver though as that would fit.

I actually don't know the points value for an Emperor Titan. Imagine an Emperor Titan can fit into the points value of a standard game because it's been another 15 years and scale creep has made it so an Emperor Titan fits into a standard game.

Would you be fine with that?

Oooh if that was the case we'd be back in Epic! That'd be kinda neat actually, having armies of titans and troops representing squadrons instead of single models.

 Pouncey wrote:
I'm gonna give up. I don't think I can convince you guys of my point.

I do believe a lot of them are wilfully ignoring your point.

I get it though and do agree with you. Power scale is starting to get a bit ridiculous and it's changing the nature of the 40k Tabletop game entirely. I remember when something large was a centrepiece yet could still be dealt with (with trouble but not impossible) by a TAC army. Nowadays GW is putting out large centrepieces that need your opponent to tailor their entire army to deal with.
(For those who think this is just Imperial bias against Magnus - I like 1ksons, I don't like Space Marines in general, I write TAC lists before I even know which Faction I'm playing and I have a Daemon army).

This starts bleeding into the tailoring issue which is becoming even more prevalent in the community as a whole but that's another argument for another day.

I remember when Land Raiders were almost impossible for many armies to deal with.

Those players who didn't want to tailor their armies specifically against land raiders and didn't want to face a land Raider induced pasting got around this by asking their marine opponents to not use land raiders.

There have always been OP units in this game. What's changed is simply that people don't want to discuss the game with a prospective opponent, it seems.

 insaniak wrote:
What reason is there to not be fine with it?

The fact that they exist in the game doesn't force you to play against them... But does allow those who want to, to do so.

What's the reason to not be fine with rules bloat? If someone wants to use all the rules, just don't play against them...

See, there's a certain trend here. "Avoid confrontation with stuff you don't like" is a very escapist route. It will eventually result in isolation and decline.

Hi all.

I am less concerned about Magnus and the rest of the Thousand Sons releases due to power level than I am due to End Times Syndrome.

After an almost two-year hiatus from 40K, I am looking at getting back in with the limited edition of the Magnus book, the man himself, and a ton of new models.

But.

I bought into the End Times for Warhammer and spent all that money on books that are largely useless now. Don't get me wrong, I love AoS, but that was a lot of wasted cash on books (and attendant models) that I cannot find opponents to use them with now.

I am concerned that $200 on Wrath of Magnus and the models I want to use in those rules will be cast aside similarly.

Anyone else worried about that? It makes me want to "boycott" from a usefulness perspective, not a power one.

 koooaei wrote:

"Avoid confrontation with stuff you don't like" is a very escapist route.

Seems fairly appropriate where a hobby is concerned, then.

 insaniak wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

"Avoid confrontation with stuff you don't like" is a very escapist route.

Seems fairly appropriate where a hobby is concerned, then.

Sure, i'm not telling that you should riot and emidiately gather an angry crowd to linch everyone who tries to field a wraithknight or something. But at the same time i've got a feeling that the amount of games you're going to avoid with this approach is >90%. No tournaments, no pick up games, no broken psy powers (a lot of those allready), no broken units (got to also discuss with the opponent what's broken and what's not) and so on. It's getting out of hand, really.

Oh my. I started in 3rd.

1500 was quite common back then, that's true.

Land raiders were not overpowered. As terminators, they were just a bit more usable. The power level difference was there too, but not as big and placement and tactics still had a role, so you could do something with underperforming units with a plan and skill without being shot out of the table immediately. 40k system was never good, but was better back then.

Still, Storm Shields were 4+. Ward upped them to 3+ to make the termies usable, designers spammed them everywhere, and now they are a staple for many deathstars.

Also, you did not need 7135782532785 special rules to define a chapter, often designers changed how a SM chapter or CSM legion worked just limiting the access to stuff, removing 0-1 in exchange for that, and changing the way the sergeant worked or adding a small equipment piece. The game was subtle enough that this was enough to make the units feel different.

But this does sell less model than formations with "buy 2765372653 of this model"..

Also, @koooaei : I am the biggest fanboy for CSM ever, but you do not balance the game adding more broken stuff. I have to read again "b-but eldar have D" "b-bu SM can shoot it with.." well guess what, other faction have not the tools to face all this OP garbage.

But you can now get 80 horrors out of 10. 90 models to field a 90 pt unit. Seems legit.

 koooaei wrote:
But you can now get 80 horrors out of 10. 90 models to field a 90 pt unit. Seems legit.

This kind of summoning garbage is another thing that has to go. And will not, see new AoS rules.

In 3rd you had CSM with icons to call Daemons in. You could design your strategy around vessels for Greater Daemons and icons infiltration (with calculated risks, but it was a risk, not Phill Kelly's LOLRANDUMB IS CHAOS GUYS AMRITE? hack.). The way the army played, felt, was not "SM -1".

Now I am waiting some butthurt SM fan with the inevitable "b-but 3.5 was SM+1". Come on. Come here and spam the meme. I will EAT YOU ALIVE


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sleboda wrote:
Hi all.

I am less concerned about Magnus and the rest of the Thousand Sons releases due to power level than I am due to End Times Syndrome.

To me this looks like Magnus but smells like Nagash.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
But you can now get 80 horrors out of 10. 90 models to field a 90 pt unit. Seems legit.

This kind of summoning garbage is another thing that has to go.

It's not summoning - it's rules for the unit + locus of model selling.

I think summoning is in a good spot in AoS, cause unlike 40k's summoning still, you pay for the units and its like a form of reserve pool you can pick and choose from as needed. But one you need to pay for.

 n0t_u wrote:
I think summoning is in a good spot in AoS, cause unlike 40k's summoning still, you pay for the units and its like a form of reserve pool you can pick and choose from as needed. But one you need to pay for.

I got it completemy wrong from the "add more horrors" thing, in this case I apologise. But My point for 40k is still valid.

I still don't get why everyone is soo scared of this guy

Wait until he is out then decide if he is broken

Right now looking at his stat and cost I can easily say I would prefer to fight against Magnus than 2 wraith knights


The wraith knight still takes the spot of being the most ridiculously overpowered undercosted model

Magnus not being a gargantuan creature makes a hell of a difference
He is t7 so your boltguns can at least still wound him

He cant stomp
Poison/hellfire wound him easy
Snipers wound him easy
He doesn't appear to have FNP as standard like a GC
He can fly but that's what sky fire is for
He is a great psyker but it looks like he can't take any of the generic powers just tzeentch powers and his special power, so he isn't as flexible as fate weaver when it comes to psychic powers

For now I would easily prefer to face Magnus than
2 wraith knights
or fate weaver and a fully equipped lv3 lord of change with 50 points of rewards and a relic that allows him to flip power dices making sure he can pass any spell if you use the correct amount of dice.
they both fly, they generate more warp charge, they have up to 17 powers and fate weaver can get a 2++ re-rollable save from 1 Grimore

That might change when he is out but as it stand there are much worse things out there to play against

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
I think summoning is in a good spot in AoS, cause unlike 40k's summoning still, you pay for the units and its like a form of reserve pool you can pick and choose from as needed. But one you need to pay for.

I got it completemy wrong from the "add more horrors" thing, in this case I apologise. But My point for 40k is still valid.

Definitely is, you shouldn't be able to have a daemon factory for free. I wouldn't even mind if it was even easier to summon things, just as long as they weren't free.

 koooaei wrote:

Sure, i'm not telling that you should riot and emidiately gather an angry crowd to linch everyone who tries to field a wraithknight or something. But at the same time i've got a feeling that the amount of games you're going to avoid with this approach is >90%.

This approach worked just fine for me, and for a lot of other people, back in 2nd edition. And that was in a much smaller pool of players than I have available now.

No tournaments, no pick up games, no broken psy powers (a lot of those allready), no broken units (got to also discuss with the opponent what's broken and what's not) and so on. It's getting out of hand, really.

You're assuming that the same players are going to have issues with all of those things.

If you're at the point of chopping out large chunks of the game, you're probably better off looking for a different game. What I'm talking about is simply saying to a prospective opponent 'Hey, sorry, I don't want to play against [insert unit/army/power/whatever]'... at which point the two of you can reach some sort of compromise, play the game without that thing you don't like, or both go and find different opponents. It's really not as big a deal as people want to make it out to be, and the occasional player who might gt their nose out of joint because you don't want to face their killer unit is a small price to pay for not wasting your time playing out a game you're not going to enjoy.


Although tournaments, yeah... Speaking as someone who enjoyed the hell out of tournament play up to and including 5th edition, I honestly don't know why people still bother. 6th edition saw 40K give up any remaining pretense at being a suitable game for tournaments.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
But you can now get 80 horrors out of 10. 90 models to field a 90 pt unit. Seems legit.

This kind of summoning garbage is another thing that has to go. And will not, see new AoS rules.

In 3rd you had CSM with icons to call Daemons in. You could design your strategy around vessels for Greater Daemons and icons infiltration (with calculated risks, but it was a risk, not Phill Kelly's LOLRANDUMB IS CHAOS GUYS AMRITE? hack.). The way the army played, felt, was not "SM -1".

Now I am waiting some butthurt SM fan with the inevitable "b-but 3.5 was SM+1". Come on. Come here and spam the meme. I will EAT YOU ALIVE

Yeah and free transports/upgrades for space marines/ad mech is totally fine

Summoning is the only thing daemons have to keep them in the meta with the other armies


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 n0t_u wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
I think summoning is in a good spot in AoS, cause unlike 40k's summoning still, you pay for the units and its like a form of reserve pool you can pick and choose from as needed. But one you need to pay for.

I got it completemy wrong from the "add more horrors" thing, in this case I apologise. But My point for 40k is still valid.

Definitely is, you shouldn't be able to have a daemon factory for free. I wouldn't even mind if it was even easier to summon things, just as long as they weren't free.

And you shouldn't be able to take transports for marines or admech upgrades/models for free

Rumors say that maybe the horrors will lost the option of use Daemonology.... If finally is true, will be a kick to the balls of chaos players, Since will lost the real source of summoning.


It wil lbe specially painful for chaos space marines who use daemons as allies and love summon more demons.

 insaniak wrote:
I remember when Land Raiders were almost impossible for many armies to deal with.

Haha yeh funny how things have changed.

Well. Luckily I don't particularly need to worry about this. In games we play even baneblade can be swatted by lone lascannon. Albeit odds aren't best ever but it's still possible.

Cuts down on cheese when there's nothing that takes something ridiculous like 1000+ shots to kill in average.

Meanmachine_5 wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
But you can now get 80 horrors out of 10. 90 models to field a 90 pt unit. Seems legit.

This kind of summoning garbage is another thing that has to go. And will not, see new AoS rules.

In 3rd you had CSM with icons to call Daemons in. You could design your strategy around vessels for Greater Daemons and icons infiltration (with calculated risks, but it was a risk, not Phill Kelly's LOLRANDUMB IS CHAOS GUYS AMRITE? hack.). The way the army played, felt, was not "SM -1".

Now I am waiting some butthurt SM fan with the inevitable "b-but 3.5 was SM+1". Come on. Come here and spam the meme. I will EAT YOU ALIVE

Yeah and free transports/upgrades for space marines/ad mech is totally fine

Summoning is the only thing daemons have to keep them in the meta with the other armies


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 n0t_u wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
I think summoning is in a good spot in AoS, cause unlike 40k's summoning still, you pay for the units and its like a form of reserve pool you can pick and choose from as needed. But one you need to pay for.

I got it completemy wrong from the "add more horrors" thing, in this case I apologise. But My point for 40k is still valid.

Definitely is, you shouldn't be able to have a daemon factory for free. I wouldn't even mind if it was even easier to summon things, just as long as they weren't free.

And you shouldn't be able to take transports for marines or admech upgrades/models for free

Free transports are not fine. Could you be so kind to point out WHERE in my posts I suggested this?
Free transports are the same problem. Like summoning, as koooaei pointed out above, is an excuse to force us to buy more models.

I said it many time and I will said it again: there are codices that are "have" and others that are "have-nots". Add more broken stuff does not fix the latter, it just enhances the escalation the game is suffering (it always suffered it, but now is out of control). The weakest will be left in the dust anyway.

Also, which army in 3rd had no tools to deal with land raiders

 insaniak wrote:


If you're at the point of chopping out large chunks of the game, you're probably better off looking for a different game. What I'm talking about is simply saying to a prospective opponent 'Hey, sorry, I don't want to play against [insert unit/army/power/whatever]'... at which point the two of you can reach some sort of compromise, play the game without that thing you don't like, or both go and find different opponents. It's really not as big a deal as people want to make it out to be

Here how it is here.

Sm + Libconclave psy deathstar
Ravenwing + Libconclave psy deathstar
Ravenwing + Libconclave psy deathstar + Support squadron
Khornedogs + sorconclave psy deathstar
Scatbikes + WK spam
Riptide wing + markerlights
Renegade artillery spam
Full imperial Knight army

Others play AOS.
That's what i can pick from. Unfortunately, i like 40k and footslogging orks. But i just have to pick mech + voidshields if i want to compete - running around psy deathstars waiting till they roll explictly badly and don't get invis off or i suddenly get a bunch of 6-s to deny or they die from perils - and scoring or rushing gunlines. Pretty one-dimensional. Other players don't have a lot of extra models to build alternative fun armies. One ravenwing player has a deathwing army but it looses badly to my footslogging orks and...basically anything else other than renegades as the renegade player hasn't bought enough bodies for baublewraps yet. There used to be an ork player but he shifted to SM+Libconclave. There are a few others but we don't get on time with them cause i'm working and they don't play on weekends.

The thing is there are no bad people here. Everyone's adequate and friendly but unless you invent a ton of houserules and waste a lot of time, you still can't play with 'what you like' in this enviroment. And why do you think they have all the stuff they're currently running? They wanted to buy a certain model they like and asked if it's any good. And it wasn't. They wanted to get another model and it happened to only be working if you build a list around it and it ends up as mediocre and easilly counterable - like Abaddon or any non-superheavy ork walker.

I'm trying to get some fun games off occasionally - but they usually involve either new players or killteam. I'm holding a campaing atm with some sort of scenario - i'll probably make a short report on the matter - and i've come across all the problems above. One side decided that it's campaing and it should be fun and picked all the crappy things they could master. Another side thought that it's campaing and it should be fun and picked artillery + sorconclave. It didn't end up as super fun after all. Seems that the next stage should require a ton of negotiations and restrictions for everyone to have fun.

Just a rant.

 Jackal wrote:
Ah i see, let me just grab my crystal ball :-)

And its because you said 4k was a standard game.
Scale creep does not effect the standard points of games.
It simply makes the models in the armies stronger.


So in 50 years time around 2k will still be the normal game, much as it always has been.
The units will simply be stronger for their price.

Ummm no standard game size is not set in stone.

When I started FB was 2000, 40k 1500.

I have seen for FB also 1999, 2250, 2400 and 2500 as tournament standards.

For 40k 1750 and 1850 have been new additions.

Funny thing is except for the 1999 boom(albeit shortlived) points tend to go up...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Weboflies wrote:
-To continue, the hobby needs to be able to bring new players in who are often kids, and often working people, with out the resources or give a feth to invest in a 4000 pt 3ft tall, $500 piece of plastic.

GW's sales have been flatting out in terms of # sold so the user base isn't that much increasing. And also has been showing in GW's release schedule. Only lately with start collecting boxes and board games has GW made any attempt of recruiting new players rather than selling more for old customers.

-at 4000 pts the amount of models you would need to fill that list if you were gonna go with a foot/ mech inf list would be completely prohibitive. Both from a perspective of time to paint/ collect, and time to finish a game.

That's why you bring in more big stuff. 4000 pts goes up fast when you bring in titans.

Funny thing is while tournament point standard has gone up model count hasn't been having similar % increase...

No there's no real limit except GW's imagination.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jackal wrote:
Your area plays (played) some fairly low point games then as tournaments have always been around 1850.

any lower and the game has no variety, any higher and it takes too long for some armies to actually play.

No it hasn't been always. Your always is very short term.

And you are thinking in terms of current meta and point costs. 1500 pts(which was tournament/pick up standard when I started) had more variety. Frankly then armies weren't that much copy&paste. Albeit might have been less of rules and more of lack of internet.

 koooaei wrote:

 insaniak wrote:


If you're at the point of chopping out large chunks of the game, you're probably better off looking for a different game. What I'm talking about is simply saying to a prospective opponent 'Hey, sorry, I don't want to play against [insert unit/army/power/whatever]'... at which point the two of you can reach some sort of compromise, play the game without that thing you don't like, or both go and find different opponents. It's really not as big a deal as people want to make it out to be

Here how it is here.

Sm + Libconclave psy deathstar
Ravenwing + Libconclave psy deathstar
Ravenwing + Libconclave psy deathstar + Support squadron
Khornedogs + sorconclave psy deathstar
Scatbikes + WK spam
Riptide wing + markerlights
Renegade artillery spam
Full imperial Knight army

B-but there are no differences between 6th and 7th edition.. i-is the same game!

I'm thinking on trying a orklexus kommando by this point. Will be hard with 'one eye open' but what else can i do without cutting down on orkses severely?

Pouncey wrote:Space Marine Chapter Masters have one too.

It's not even strength D and it misses 2/3s of the time.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pouncey wrote:Yes. You complained about all of those.

Yes. Yes they did.

The same people who whined about wraithknights are going to be the people who buy Magnus.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
What reason is there to not be fine with it?

The fact that they exist in the game doesn't force you to play against them... But does allow those who want to, to do so.

Except, it potentially does. If I don't know what my opponent is playing in advance, it could very well be the case that I find myself watching my opponent deploy a Magnus.

This just increases the need to have that awkward pre-game conversation:

"Hey, want to play on so and so date?"

"Sure, what time and points limit?"

"1850 on Friday at 6 PM."

"Cool...what army are you playing?" [Note that this is already a taboo question.]

"Chaos Space Marines."

"Which faction?" [And now we're going into territory that is DEFINITELY taboo.]

"Thousand sons."

"Are you bringing Magnus?" [And now I'm asking about the details of a list. Great.]

"Yes."

"Yeah, on second thought, let's cancel that. I hear so and so is looking for a game!" [And now I look like a donkey cave.]

Boycotting Magnus is like boycotting an ig wivern.

 koooaei wrote:
Boycotting Magnus is like boycotting an ig wivern.

Hey those things are way too OP.......

 Traditio wrote:

Pouncey wrote:Yes. You complained about all of those.

Yes. Yes they did.

The same people who whined about wraithknights are going to be the people who buy Magnus.

Wait, you're going to buy Magnus too now?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay. What's your point-for-point effective way to kill a Wraithknight?

Because Sternguard are not an OP unit. They're a damn good unit, but costed appropriately. What's your 300 point solution to a Wraithknight?

Grav-cannon Skyhammer-Devs.

 Traditio wrote:

Pouncey wrote:Space Marine Chapter Masters have one too.

It's not even strength D and it misses 2/3s of the time.

You ever have a look at the Orbital Strike stuff from Witch Hunters?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pouncey wrote:Yes. You complained about all of those.

Yes. Yes they did.

The same people who whined about wraithknights are going to be the people who buy Magnus.

Your phrasing indicates sarcasm, but your statement is factually correct. So that's a weird combination.

Yeah, see, for a lot of people, it's okay when they get to have crazy-powerful stuff, but they complain if their opponents have them and they don't.

Pouncey wrote:Your phrasing indicates sarcasm, but your statement is factually correct. So that's a weird combination.

Yeah, see, for a lot of people, it's okay when they get to have crazy-powerful stuff, but they complain if their opponents have them and they don't.

I am being completely serious/non-sarcastic.

That's what's wrong with this game. People have a problem with cheese...when its in the opposing deployment zone.

 Traditio wrote:

Pouncey wrote:Your phrasing indicates sarcasm, but your statement is factually correct. So that's a weird combination.

Yeah, see, for a lot of people, it's okay when they get to have crazy-powerful stuff, but they complain if their opponents have them and they don't.

I am being completely serious/non-sarcastic.

That's what's wrong with this game. People have a problem with cheese...when its in the opposing deployment zone.

That's just normal human hypocrisy being applied to the game though.

Your phrasing indicates sarcasm, but your statement is factually correct. So that's a weird combination.

Yeah, see, for a lot of people, it's okay when they get to have crazy-powerful stuff, but they complain if their opponents have them and they don't.

Or the idea that something could be strong but accurately costed may be an indicator that some people may be intentionally overlooking.

Considering your previous stance on "Taking an emperor titan" to the table, there may be an overlap. The wraithknight was part of a strong army in 6th and was strong then, and instead of receiving a nerf it instead got buffed in 7th while the points cost stayed about the same while the army still got stronger.

Pouncey wrote:That's just normal human hypocrisy being applied to the game though.

What they apparently fail to grasp is that it's just temporary.

The wheel of power-creep is going to keep turning.

And they will be whining again at some point.

How long did the "HAHAHA! WE HAVE HELDRAKES!" phase last?

Yeah. That came and went.

And by purchasing the heldrake, by purchasing Magnus, by purchasing the wraithknight, by purchasing the scatter bikes, etc. with their OP rule-sets, they've just encouraged GW to keep spinning that wheel.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again:

40k players have nobody to blame for just how broken this game is but themselves.

You have a problem with a bloated rule-set? You demanded it by buying models with special snowflake special rules.

You have a problem with scale-creep? You kept buying the giant robots and monsters.

You have a problem with power creep? Well guess who voted "yes" for that power-creep with your wallet?

You have a problem with the fact that you have to go through 70 billion books just to get the rules for one army?

Well guess who kept buying those books so you could keep getting the next most broken, OP rules to date?

40k is broken because of 40k players. Its their own fault.

 Weboflies wrote:

-To continue, the hobby needs to be able to bring new players in who are often kids, and often working people, with out the resources or give a feth to invest in a 4000 pt 3ft tall, $500 piece of plastic.

$160 pieces of plastic are still pretty hefty, though. Knights and similar things are pricey and don't strike me as kid-friendly or casual purchases other than to quite well-off people. It's cool that they exist as vanity items but I'm not sure it's a good idea for them to be normal.

 insaniak wrote:

The standard in 2nd edition was 2000 points. Since then, it's most commonly varied between 1500, 1750 and 1850, depending on where you play.

Based on that, it's unlikely that the standard in another 15 years will be 4000 points unless the game changes significantly, at which point there is no actual basis for comparison.

2nd edition used fairly different rules and a basic space marine cost like 25 points. Things changing that much between now and 15 years out is plausible.

 Traditio wrote:

I've said it once, and I'll say it again:

40k players have nobody to blame for just how broken this game is but themselves.

You have a problem with a bloated rule-set? You demanded it by buying models with special snowflake special rules.

You have a problem with scale-creep? You kept buying the giant robots and monsters.

You have a problem with power creep? Well guess who voted "yes" for that power-creep with your wallet?

40k is broken because of 40k players. Its their own fault.

No, 40K is broken because the designers do a bad job. The designers aren't magically compelled to write bad rules because some models sell better than others. 40K is a competitive game so expecting people to not react to how units change in usefulness is stupid.

Rosebuddy wrote:No, 40K is broken because the designers do a bad job. The designers aren't magically compelled to write bad rules because some models sell better than others.

GW outright came out, at least once, and basically said: "Rules? Game? Lulz. We're a modeling company."

Ultimately, yes, I can and do blame 40k players.

Supply and demand is a thing.

 Traditio wrote:

Pouncey wrote:That's just normal human hypocrisy being applied to the game though.

What they apparently fail to grasp is that it's just temporary.

The wheel of power-creep is going to keep turning.

And they will be whining again at some point.

How long did the "HAHAHA! WE HAVE HELDRAKES!" phase last?

Yeah. That came and went.

And by purchasing the heldrake, by purchasing Magnus, by purchasing the wraithknight, by purchasing the scatter bikes, etc. l with their OP rule-sets, they've just encouraged GW to keep spinning that wheel.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again:

40k players have nobody to blame for just how broken this game is but themselves.

You have a problem with a bloated rule-set? You demanded it by buying models with special snowflake special rules.

You have a problem with scale-creep? You kept buying the giant robots and monsters.

You have a problem with power creep? Well guess who voted "yes" for that power-creep with your wallet?

You have a problem with the fact that you have to go through 70 billion books just to get the rules for one army?

Well guess who kept buying those books so you could keep getting the next most broken, OP rules to date?

40k is broken because of 40k players. Its their own fault.

I think if you saw the models in my collection you might see I don't do those things you just said.

Pouncy:

When I say "you," I don't mean you in particular. I mean 40k players in general. I mean "you, the players."

Of course I don't think that my comments apply to you personally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here are the facts, people:

It's too late to boycott wraithknights, etc.

But it would force GW to do some serious reflection if they end up spending all of that money on molds, plastics, etc. on producing copies of Magnus the Red...

...and it tanks.

Maybe then they would be more inspired to move the game in a different direction.

But no. Buy the next OP shiny.

And then complain about how broken the game is.

That's the way the 40k player base likes it, right?

 Traditio wrote:
Maybe then they would be more inspired to move the game in a different direction.

But no. Buy the next OP shiny.

And then complain about how broken the game is.

That's the way the 40k player base likes it, right?

Here's a thought. It's up to players to be affected by GW's rulewriting. I don't care what GW puts out rulewise. Doesn't affect me one bit. What I want is just good models. If rules are crap fine. That ain't problem. Lack of models is bit bigger problem though. I don't have ability to sculpt models that look anything but junk.

So I'm not too worried about supporting GW and thus "ensuring" they keep providing crap rules. Because GW is irrelevant for rules.

All it means is we'd never see a large cast like it (or other primarchs) from GW. It doesn't mean we'd get better rules,, it'd simply prove to GW that crazy formations are the way to go.

Magnus isn't nearly as terrible as you make him out to be. If he's flying, he can only cast psychic powers. If he's not flying, he gets shot up. If he's in reserves, he's a waste of points until he comes in. Compared to something like a tau'nar (cheapest Titan sized unit close to his point cost), Magnus is incredibly tame.

I agree to a point with the OP. I feel that they are clueless when it comes to actually scaling the game to an appropriate size and things like this do not help, if anything it just encourages people to play the larger games so they can field the stupid thing. I already know at least one person who refuses to play anything lower than 2000 because he is unwilling to adjust his army and have to choose between a few of the things he uses, and he doesn't even use anything to egregious.

This is a problem not because it's a bad model but because it continues the idea of making the game bigger and bigger and bigger to the point where it will never be able to be fixed. We need less of these giant overpowered things, not more

Indeed if you compare Magnus with certain gargantuan creatures as the tau or eldar ones, Magnus is even bad because his point cost. They cost the half, they at melee are even better because the stomp...No mention the firepower they have. And S D shots with no need of waste 12 warpdices (the SD power is charge 5.... xDD)

Even an IK could kill more models per turn than Magnus with his 2 shots battle cannon with a half cost (and at melee he can "stomp"


As I said, Magnust excessive cost makes him bad on the actual meta, where a pod with sternguard could barely kill him. no mention his size makes you can shot him always hahaha.

And snipers or poisons attack destroy him.

 Traditio wrote:
Pouncy:

When I say "you," I don't mean you in particular. I mean 40k players in general. I mean "you, the players."

Of course I don't think that my comments apply to you personally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here are the facts, people:

It's too late to boycott wraithknights, etc.

But it would force GW to do some serious reflection if they end up spending all of that money on molds, plastics, etc. on producing copies of Magnus the Red...

...and it tanks.

Maybe then they would be more inspired to move the game in a different direction.

But no. Buy the next OP shiny.

And then complain about how broken the game is.

That's the way the 40k player base likes it, right?

Yes. Yes it is the way we like it.

 Traditio wrote:
Pouncy:

When I say "you," I don't mean you in particular. I mean 40k players in general. I mean "you, the players."

Of course I don't think that my comments apply to you personally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here are the facts, people:

It's too late to boycott wraithknights, etc.

But it would force GW to do some serious reflection if they end up spending all of that money on molds, plastics, etc. on producing copies of Magnus the Red...

...and it tanks.

Maybe then they would be more inspired to move the game in a different direction.

But no. Buy the next OP shiny.

And then complain about how broken the game is.

That's the way the 40k player base likes it, right?

That's right, I love my Knights, Riptides, and Stormsurges.

How much time would you say you waste on Dakka making troll threads, arguing with people, and generally NOT doing anything constructive related to the hobby itself? Do you even actually play or paint? Will people even play with you anymore?

 Traditio wrote:
Pouncy:

When I say "you," I don't mean you in particular. I mean 40k players in general. I mean "you, the players."

Of course I don't think that my comments apply to you personally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here are the facts, people:

It's too late to boycott wraithknights, etc.

But it would force GW to do some serious reflection if they end up spending all of that money on molds, plastics, etc. on producing copies of Magnus the Red...

...and it tanks.

Maybe then they would be more inspired to move the game in a different direction.

But no. Buy the next OP shiny.

And then complain about how broken the game is.

That's the way the 40k player base likes it, right?

They would just not do Thousand Sons again. If multiple massive and expensive models already sell well enough and one of them is a flop, they won't stop making large models. They'll stop doing whichever sub-faction the flopped model belongs to.

If GW doesn't want to write good rules, boycotting individual models won't change anything. You'd need a systemic boycott of every GW product and a list of demands presented collectively.

Don't forget, gamers would need to buy stock as well. Why listen to anyone who isn't a shareholder?

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
That's right, I love my Knights, Riptides, and Stormsurges.

How much time would you say you waste on Dakka making troll threads, arguing with people, and generally NOT doing anything constructive related to the hobby itself? Do you even actually play or paint? Will people even play with you anymore?

I can't speak for him, but if you want my answer to that question, well, you might be underestimating how much free time I have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Verviedi wrote:
Don't forget, gamers would need to buy stock as well. Why listen to anyone who isn't a shareholder?

So how much GW stock do I have to buy before I can convince them to make or not make models at my behest?

 Verviedi wrote:
Don't forget, gamers would need to buy stock as well. Why listen to anyone who isn't a shareholder?

The only tenable political solution is obviously to storm GW headquarters and collectivize the company by force. Grots for everyone! To each according to their points limit!

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
Don't forget, gamers would need to buy stock as well. Why listen to anyone who isn't a shareholder?

The only tenable political solution is obviously to storm GW headquarters and collectivize the company by force. Grots for everyone! To each according to their points limit!

I think an armed rebellion would just get us thrown in prison.

Let's try sending them angry e-mails instead.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
That's right, I love my Knights, Riptides, and Stormsurges.

How much time would you say you waste on Dakka making troll threads, arguing with people, and generally NOT doing anything constructive related to the hobby itself? Do you even actually play or paint? Will people even play with you anymore?

I can't speak for him, but if you want my answer to that question, well, you might be underestimating how much free time I have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Verviedi wrote:
Don't forget, gamers would need to buy stock as well. Why listen to anyone who isn't a shareholder?

So how much GW stock do I have to buy before I can convince them to make or not make models at my behest?

Enough so that the amount of stock you buy compensates for the amount of money that you would lose the company. If you have to ask, you can't afford it.

Currently sums up my feelings towards 40k from this thread.

 Verviedi wrote:
Enough so that the amount of stock you buy compensates for the amount of money that you would lose the company. If you have to ask, you can't afford it.

So if you know I can't afford it, why did you suggest buying enough stock to make GW listen to me?

Oh, don't compare 40k to Global Thermonuclear War. At least 40k has replay value.

 HANZERtank wrote:
Currently sums up my feelings towards 40k from this thread.

Wow. That's an incredibly old computer interface. That's like DOS, if DOS were blue.

I don't think calling for a boycott will do anything. Players will buy the model for any number of reasons, and all of them are valid for those people. The people buying it for collecting/painting are especially inclined to keep buying stuff like that as clearly they enjoy collecting and painting large, cool looking models.

If you don't like the direction of the company or this particular release, then just don't fething buy it. You'll probably get as much traction trying to change GW by e-mailing them repeatedly (or posting on their new social media stuff) then you will desperately trying to convince the ~30ish people frequenting this thread to not buy a model most of them either have already bought or planned on buying.

Your time and effort is better spent fixing the game yourself, or fostering a gaming community that you enjoy.

Judging by your posting history though, it seems like your idea of a perfect 40k game is yourself playing against yourself.

Addendum because ninja.
Because you can't expect a corporation to follow your every request without significant amounts of money. If that plan were implemented, it would involve mass quantities of people buying stock, and you not necessarily getting your every request fulfilled.

 Verviedi wrote:
Addendum because ninja.
Because you can't expect a corporation to follow your every request without significant amounts of money. If that plan were implemented, it would involve mass quantities of people buying stock, and you not necessarily getting your every request fulfilled.

Do you think I can convince enough people to buy enough GW stock to get GW to listen to the group's collective demands?

 Pouncey wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
Addendum because ninja.
Because you can't expect a corporation to follow your every request without significant amounts of money. If that plan were implemented, it would involve mass quantities of people buying stock, and you not necessarily getting your every request fulfilled.

Do you think I can convince enough people to buy enough GW stock to get GW to listen to the group's collective demands?

Nope.

No. I am demonstrating the futility of that endeavor. Not enough people share your... unique idea of what this game should be.

 Verviedi wrote:
No. I am demonstrating the futility of that endeavor. Not enough people share your... unique idea of what this game should be.

So then nothing I can do will result in change.

But I'm still upset.

So all I can do is whine fruitlessly on Internet message boards because I lack the power to actually get things to change.

 insaniak wrote:
What reason is there to not be fine with it?

The fact that they exist in the game doesn't force you to play against them... But does allow those who want to, to do so.

Thats nice and dandy if theres are large communities close by where you can pick and choose opponents, its utterly condescending to anyone spread out thin with limited communities.

A boat dosent float better if you start drilling additional holes in the hull to let the water out.

 Bishop F Gantry wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
What reason is there to not be fine with it?

The fact that they exist in the game doesn't force you to play against them... But does allow those who want to, to do so.

Thats nice and dandy if theres are large communities close by where you can pick and choose opponents, its utterly condescending to anyone spread out thin with limited communities.

A boat dosent float better if you start drilling additional holes in the hull to let the water out.

Have you heard of submarine ballast tanks?

Well, as for the rules, you can always change them yourself to suit your needs better.

For models, plenty of 3rd party miniatures out there.

For the whole game, there are literally dozens of amazing wargames out there. 40k fills a partticular niche of being a 28mm game at the company level, which is attractive to many as vehicles and larger models are cool, and most 28mm games are skirmish oriented.

 Pouncey wrote:
So all I can do is whine fruitlessly on Internet message boards because I lack the power to actually get things to change.

So by your own admission, your whining about SoB is not intended to be a productive force?

Maybe it's time to invest in another wargame...

You know, i saw this thread and though, "Maybe there is a valid reason behind this." Nope just random bitching.

Pretty sure this was the argument when Knights first came out. It's amazing how people ALWAYS claim doom and gloom whenever something new happens or something changes, before they've even had the chance to see it in action.

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
So all I can do is whine fruitlessly on Internet message boards because I lack the power to actually get things to change.

So by your own admission, your whining about SoB is not intended to be a productive force?

Maybe it's time to invest in another wargame...

...Maybe you should think about what I just said.

There is no productive force I can do.

No option to make it better.

Every complaint about imbalanced rules and overpowered units on this forum is the same. All of it fruitless whining.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
You know, i saw this thread and though, "Maybe there is a valid reason behind this." Nope just random bitching.

And thankfully you came to rescue with such high-quality content!

Eternally in debt buddy!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nintura wrote:
Pretty sure this was the argument when Knights first came out. It's amazing how people ALWAYS claim doom and gloom whenever something new happens or something changes, before they've even had the chance to see it in action.

If this is supposed to be an argument against, it fails spectacularly. I agree with the basic point, tough.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
You know, i saw this thread and though, "Maybe there is a valid reason behind this." Nope just random bitching.

And thankfully you came to rescue with such high-quality content!

Eternally in debt buddy!

Not a problem with super productive remarks like that, we are on our way to fixing the threads

 Pouncey wrote:


...Maybe you should think about what I just said.

There is no productive force I can do.

No option to make it better.

Every complaint about imbalanced rules and overpowered units on this forum is the same. All of it fruitless whining.

There's one thing you can do - quit complaining and then either:

- Stop playing 40k until it improves
- Move to another game system

Just because other people are pointlessly complaining, doesn't mean you need to join in.

 Pouncey wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
So all I can do is whine fruitlessly on Internet message boards because I lack the power to actually get things to change.

So by your own admission, your whining about SoB is not intended to be a productive force?

Maybe it's time to invest in another wargame...

...Maybe you should think about what I just said.

There is no productive force I can do.

No option to make it better.

Every complaint about imbalanced rules and overpowered units on this forum is the same. All of it fruitless whining.

I dont agree with this guy much on things, but this is one of the cases.

All this is, is kicking and screaming about new toys coming out that are not for your faction, thats really what this all boils down to in the end.

I think, scratch that know, OP is doing just that. Magnus and the thousand sons, along with war zone fenris is one of the best things to happen to warhammer 40k for a few reasons.

1)Chaos Space marines might not actually suck now

2) This is a good sign we are getting some of the good parts of AoS in 40k (IE factions and doing away with ally table which is almost unarguably the cause for most problems in the game, but neither here nor there.)

3) THE STORY IS FINALLY MOVING ALONG!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:


...Maybe you should think about what I just said.

There is no productive force I can do.

No option to make it better.

Every complaint about imbalanced rules and overpowered units on this forum is the same. All of it fruitless whining.

There's one thing you can do - quit complaining and then either:

- Stop playing 40k until it improves
- Move to another game system

Just because other people are pointlessly complaining, doesn't mean you need to join in.

This is also very true, bitching does nothing in the long run.

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:


...Maybe you should think about what I just said.

There is no productive force I can do.

No option to make it better.

Every complaint about imbalanced rules and overpowered units on this forum is the same. All of it fruitless whining.

There's one thing you can do - quit complaining and then either:

- Stop playing 40k until it improves
- Move to another game system

Just because other people are pointlessly complaining, doesn't mean you need to join in.

You remember all the complaints about Finecast?

All the complaints about the 5e Grey Knights?

All the legitimate complaints about serious problems?

All of it. Useless, wasted effort that didn't change anything.

 Pouncey wrote:


You remember all the complaints about Finecast?

All the complaints about the 5e Grey Knights?

All the legitimate complaints about serious problems?

All of it. Useless, wasted effort that didn't change anything.

Okay. So..?

That doesn't validate your whining if that's what you're trying to say.

1) in case is "Chaos Marines would not suck deploying a single broken model, leading to an updated version of the Mace Prince, but up to 11"

3) "the story moving along" is not necessarily good for everyone.

People whine because is human. Is a way to show distress (adjusted for the context ) , but is a warning to other humans, too. Is a way to say "that thing sucks, stay away from that".

Also, after some whining there is quitting. Enjoy your progressively shrinking echo-chamber, then.

 General Annoyance wrote:
Okay. So..?

That doesn't validate your whining if that's what you're trying to say.

You didn't have a problem with the Finecast complaints.

You didn't have a problem with the complaints about the GK codex.

You only call my posts "pointless whining" because you disagree with me.

 Pouncey wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:


...Maybe you should think about what I just said.

There is no productive force I can do.

No option to make it better.

Every complaint about imbalanced rules and overpowered units on this forum is the same. All of it fruitless whining.

There's one thing you can do - quit complaining and then either:

- Stop playing 40k until it improves
- Move to another game system

Just because other people are pointlessly complaining, doesn't mean you need to join in.

You remember all the complaints about Finecast?

All the complaints about the 5e Grey Knights?

All the legitimate complaints about serious problems?

All of it. Useless, wasted effort that didn't change anything.

wellllll to be fair, those are not really good arguments for an example of wining is ok and works because

Finecast: was a wine with our wallets, no one bought it, and thats the real way to get a company to listen, not send in email after email, but to speak with you wallet. The reason they went away from fine cast is because no one bought it because it was pure crap. Also, Gw got a LOT better at making their plastic molds which basically made fine crap obsolete at that point for them.

Grey knights 5e: that changed not because of wining, that changed because of the drump truck of literally death threats sent to matt ward over the codex. It was not wining it was literally death threats that forced GW to change their policy for writing rule book where they never say who the author is.

so i mean unless you back that kindda action, death threats to get your way, then sure wining does stuff.

If you really wanna get GW to listen vote with your wallet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
1) in case is "Chaos Marines would not suck deploying a single broken model, leading to an updated version of the Mace Prince, but up to 11"

3) "the story moving along" is not necessarily good for everyone.

People whine because is human. Is a way to show distress (adjusted for the context ) , but is a warning to other humans, too. Is a way to say "that thing sucks, stay away from that".

Also, after some whining there is quitting. Enjoy your progressively shrinking echo-chamber, then.

Not looking at just magnus, with the drop of this they are also putting out traitor legion codexes, which is a good sign that CSM are getting a rework that im stoked for.

eh, im getting really tired of the same story, never going any were but thats personal opinion so, not a really a point i can argue for or against since neither of us would be right or wrong on it.

 Pouncey wrote:


You didn't have a problem with the Finecast complaints.

You didn't have a problem with the complaints about the GK codex.

You only call my posts "pointless whining" because you disagree with me.

And how did you come to the conclusion that I didn't have a problem with those complaints then?

(actually, I didn't have a problem with Finecast as that was a more genuine quality issue, that was resolved by GW in the end)

By your own admission your posts are pointless whining - just because I may not agree with your point (to an extent I actually agree with your point) doesn't change that.

All the whining just makes me want to buy it more.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
wellllll to be fair, those are not really good arguments for an example of wining is ok and works because

Finecast: was a wine with our wallets, no one bought it, and thats the real way to get a company to listen, not send in email after email, but to speak with you wallet. The reason they went away from fine cast is because no one bought it because it was pure crap. Also, Gw got a LOT better at making their plastic molds which basically made fine crap obsolete at that point for them.

Grey knights 5e: that changed not because of wining, that changed because of the drump truck of literally death threats sent to matt ward over the codex. It was not wining it was literally death threats that forced GW to change their policy for writing rule book where they never say who the author is.

so i mean unless you back that kindda action, death threats to get your way, then sure wining does stuff.

If you really wanna get GW to listen vote with your wallet.

Exactly. The complaints here didn't get anything to change. Other stuff did.

Every complaint on this forum hasn't changed a damned thing.

But you're okay with those complaints and not mine, because you either don't like me, or don't like my complaint. It's not because the complaint isn't going to get anything done, because you're okay with other complaints that don't get anything done when you agree with them.

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
All the whining just makes me want to buy it more.

My finger is over the buy button emperor help me

To the OP:

Considering that this model is not even out yet, let's not jump the gun to quickly here. Also, have you seen some of the rules for the primarches in 30k? Oh and all of them can have bodyguard units. Magnus can not.

If you are so against some stuff, then don't play it. Personally for me, outside of tournaments I will not play eldar unless they use the old distort rules for their distort weapons, instead of str D. Yep, I got a friend that does not mind doing that at all. What I'm trying to say is if you don't like what your opponent brings either ask them to change something about their list and come to a compromise or be a better general and learn how to adept and over come.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
wellllll to be fair, those are not really good arguments for an example of wining is ok and works because

Finecast: was a wine with our wallets, no one bought it, and thats the real way to get a company to listen, not send in email after email, but to speak with you wallet. The reason they went away from fine cast is because no one bought it because it was pure crap. Also, Gw got a LOT better at making their plastic molds which basically made fine crap obsolete at that point for them.

Grey knights 5e: that changed not because of wining, that changed because of the drump truck of literally death threats sent to matt ward over the codex. It was not wining it was literally death threats that forced GW to change their policy for writing rule book where they never say who the author is.

so i mean unless you back that kindda action, death threats to get your way, then sure wining does stuff.

If you really wanna get GW to listen vote with your wallet.

Exactly. The complaints here didn't get anything to change. Other stuff did.

Every complaint on this forum hasn't changed a damned thing.

But you're okay with those complaints and not mine, because you either don't like me, or don't like my complaint. It's not because the complaint isn't going to get anything done, because you're okay with other complaints that don't get anything done when you agree with them.

Oh yeah yeah, if we are talking about just complains on these forms, then yeah those are worth gak, voting with your wallet is a good way to get listened to. I just detenst most whining on here because no one actually produces a real viable solution just WAHHHHHH THIS SUCKS SCREW GW!

And its just like....ok kid, you feel better now?

 Backspacehacker wrote:


Oh yeah yeah, if we are talking about just complains on these forms, then yeah those are worth gak, voting with your wallet is a good way to get listened to. I just detenst most whining on here because no one actually produces a real viable solution just WAHHHHHH THIS SUCKS SCREW GW!

And its just like....ok kid, you feel better now?

So don't single me out, when everyone else is doing the exact same thing.

 Backspacehacker wrote:


Not looking at just magnus, with the drop of this they are also putting out traitor legion codexes, which is a good sign that CSM are getting a rework that im stoked for.

"the past FIVE CSM books are a borderline parody, BUT THIS ONE WILL BE GOOD I AM SURE!!!!"

let's wait and see (because is true that before whining we have to wait, see and play). I would never be so happy of being wrong

There's a whole spectrum of difference between whining and having some intelligent discourse about something you may dislike.

OP, for example, who has a long history of ranty, non-sensical, whining posts is considered to be a whiner because the posts are filled with nonsense and are abrasive to all, even the people who may agree with the premise.

So yeah, feel free to point out the problems with GW. You'll find plenty of company here. Its how you do it that matters.

There's a world of difference between "GW prices make me mad and you should all boycott them!" and "I feel GW's prices are hurting the community as a barrier to entry for newer players, does anyone have any alternatives or ways to lessen this?"

 Pouncey wrote:

So all I can do is whine fruitlessly on Internet message boards because I lack the power to actually get things to change.

You could invest a lot of time and effort in house-ruling stuff to death and finding like-minded people.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

My finger is over the buy button emperor help me

In a way, the emperor did help.

Still think people make a way to big fuss about it. It's just a game. If you don't to play with or against Magnus... don't?

Realistically things like this just show why GW's rules are absolute junk, and why until they actually try to fix it nothing will save them. Sure you have the few diehard "fanboys" like jah-joshua who is like "I love the GW aesthetic, everything else isn't as good because it's not exactly GW aesthetic" but most of us seem to actually want a good game, and GW repeatedly fails to deliver. It seems though the masses only care about "zomg shiny new model" and will blissfully ignore gak rules as long as they get their cool looking models.

I don't get it. I've only recently looked at coming back to GW and dropped more than I should have on a few things, and while the models are nice, every single time I see a game or play a game I think to myself "what the feth am I doing wasting my time with this trainwreck of a game" when I play other games that have models I also like (albeit not the sheer quality of GW) and much better rules that I actually enjoy playing.

Yet I frequently see people defend the game. The models I get, they are cool and have a relatively unique aesthetic that you can't find elsewhere. But the game is straight garbage, and I can't fathom how anyone, especially people who have played other games, can say that GW rules are anything but trash. I get playing because it lets you use the cool figures, but at least accept that the rules are bad and should change; instead I see people actual laud the GW rules and condemn other, better games, and cannot figure out why.

The model is awesome. The rules are junk. It seems GW games really do attract those who care more about buying/painting/collecting the models than actually playing a game; sort of like a twisted parody of Gundams and other model kits, where you buy it because it's a cool model, and no other reason factors in.

Now, I like whining as much as the next guy, but isn't this getting a bit out of hand?

I mean, it's your hobby. You can do what you want. It's perfectly fine to seek out like-minded people and play the kind of games you want to play. It's perfectly fine to throw out the rules entirely and make your own, or use another game alongside your 40k minis. It's also fine to just read pre-3rd ed fluff. Or pretend Ward never worked for GW, or that CS Goto wrote for Warmachine.

Seriously, guys, it's toy soldiers and your hobby. Take some ownership of it and find a way to enjoy yourself. Jesus.

 koooaei wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

So all I can do is whine fruitlessly on Internet message boards because I lack the power to actually get things to change.

You could invest a lot of time and effort in house-ruling stuff to death and finding like-minded people.

...You understand my issue is about not having plastic models, right? You can't house-rule new models into existence.

Also, if you wanna look up my early posts on this forum from about 5 1/2 years ago, you'll see me being the most optimistic Sisters of Battle player on this forum. You'll also see other Sisters of Battle players arguing with me about how the situattion wasn't bad.

 Sasori wrote:
I ordered Magnus at a 25% discount.

Sasori, living the dream!

 Thud wrote:
Now, I like whining as much as the next guy, but isn't this getting a bit out of hand?

I mean, it's your hobby. You can do what you want. It's perfectly fine to seek out like-minded people and play the kind of games you want to play. It's perfectly fine to throw out the rules entirely and make your own, or use another game alongside your 40k minis. It's also fine to just read pre-3rd ed fluff. Or pretend Ward never worked for GW, or that CS Goto wrote for Warmachine.

Seriously, guys, it's toy soldiers and your hobby. Take some ownership of it and find a way to enjoy yourself. Jesus.

And when thats not an option, when friendly casual games arent realistic? The rules arent there for casual games the rules are there so the game still work in Non-casual games!

The game works perfectly fine for pickups. It is your own fault whether your list is garbage or not.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The game works perfectly fine for pickups. It is your own fault whether your list is garbage or not.

The thread needed a little comedy. Thanks for giving us all a laugh.

Magnus is a Daemon Primarch he is the second most powerful Psyker in 40K. I expect him to eat knights for breakfast and to burn everything within several lightyears with warpfire.

I hope, OP, that you own neither a Wraithknight, Scatterbikes, Tau, Skyhammer formation or Necrons. Because otherwise your post just ends up as "I don't want someone to out-cheese my cheese!"



----All is Dust----

 Thud wrote:


Seriously, guys, it's toy soldiers and your hobby. Take some ownership of it and find a way to enjoy yourself. Jesus.

I honestly believe that OP's way to enjoy the hobby is posts like this.

I laugh at anyone saying "he won't get his strength D beam gaze cause 5 war charges" that he gets on 2's... that he can throw 5 dice at and have the most likely chance of successfully manifesting. Haha, I laugh at this thread

Well......to be fair, he's a freaking demon primarch. he probably should be able to rip through wraithknights like butter, though I'm not certain how a FMC would accomplish that, at least from the air, one shot D beam with a -2 modifier to the D chart notwithstanding.

And depending on his toughness, I would argue that he's probably easier to kill than a wraithknight, as he's got fewer wounds and isn't a GMC.

I doubt he's going to be a pushover, but he really REALLY shouldn't be.

7 wounds. FMC. 4+ armor. 4++ invuln that rerolls 1s.

He's not a GMC, though.

Need 6s to wound it with bolters. Has a 50% chance of failing each wound, with a 1/3 chance of rerolling each failure for another 50% chance to fail each wound.

Necron Deathmarks wound him on 2's.

All of the Dark Eldars can poison him like he owes them money.

Eldar Scatter-Bikes wound on 5's. They usually come with Divination, so they can more reliably hit and ground him if he's flying.

He's certainly powerful with his psychic powers. He's going to land nearly everything he tries to cast.

But he can be killed, and he's 650 points in one ball of fun!

FMCs OP, but at least he costs 650pts.

While I think the OP is a bit silly...I can't fault the underlying thought process. However, there is an easier solution: don't play the game.

I haven't played 40K since edition 3.5, and while I love the genre/fluff, Games Workshop has long since lost my interest with the direction they went with rules. So, *gasp*, I stopped playing. There is no version of this where Games Workshop has some weird 180-degree turn and makes the game something I'd like the play again (I didn't enjoy 3-3.5, more of a 2nd fan).

"Lock her up!"

lol you're a bad poster

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I laugh at anyone saying "he won't get his strength D beam gaze cause 5 war charges" that he gets on 2's... that he can throw 5 dice at and have the most likely chance of successfully manifesting. Haha, I laugh at this thread

Oh and he gets access to another D shot, you know, just in case the beam somehow missed or didn't wound. Still he's "reasonably" priced, me thinks.

I'm not going to boycott Magnus because I think he's OP. It's too soon to know one way or the other, for one thing. For another, he's just the first of many Primarchs coming out, both loyal and traitor, and you can be dang sure I'm picking up Lion El'Jonson when he comes out.

I am, however, not going to buy Magnus, because I'm not a Tzeench guy and because of the nipple horns. I mean, seriously, nipple horns? Whose bright idea was that?

Looks like it's time to rebase and spiff up my old Culexes Assassin though.

Also, my group has a house rule - psykers can only use their own Warp Dice and those generated by the Harness the Warp roll at the beginning of the psychic phase. Tones down the excesses of the psychic phase a bit.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:


I am, however, not going to buy Magnus, because I'm not a Tzeench guy and because of the nipple horns. I mean, seriously, nipple horns? Whose bright idea was that?

The original artwork's and all that followed it in the last years thereafter.

 Blacksails wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The game works perfectly fine for pickups. It is your own fault whether your list is garbage or not.

The thread needed a little comedy. Thanks for giving us all a laugh.

Yeah, I mean, I basically exist in the ideal situation for making WH40k rules work. I have one opponent who I play at home with in a private setting, and she and I can make WH40k's rather-shoddy ruleset work for us by just ignoring or altering anything we don't like. Magnus the Red and scale creep isn't an issue I ever have to face, because I buy all the models me and my mom use, she just uses whatever I have in my collection, so I don't ever have to deal with him myself. My mom even plays Orks, I play Sisters of Battle, and I don't have to deal with the problems of using an army with no Skyfire going up against an army with multiple Flyer options, because we just never use flyers. The worst complaint I have about WH40k that applies to my personal situation is that there aren't plastic models for me to make conversions from for my army.

But I recognize that not everyone's in my situation. Not everyone can so easily decide to not play with stuff. Not everyone can just decide not to play with something built into the standard game rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
While I think the OP is a bit silly...I can't fault the underlying thought process. However, there is an easier solution: don't play the game.

I haven't played 40K since edition 3.5, and while I love the genre/fluff, Games Workshop has long since lost my interest with the direction they went with rules. So, *gasp*, I stopped playing. There is no version of this where Games Workshop has some weird 180-degree turn and makes the game something I'd like the play again (I didn't enjoy 3-3.5, more of a 2nd fan).

I imagine the shift from wacky, hilarious, non-serious 2e to super-serious, grim 3e lore was a big shock too?

 Pouncey wrote:
...Maybe you should think about what I just said.

There is no productive force I can do.

No option to make it better.

Every complaint about imbalanced rules and overpowered units on this forum is the same. All of it fruitless whining.

If you decide so.

Funny our games don't get screwed by GW the way yours are.

Difference? We decided to do something about it.

tneva82 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
...Maybe you should think about what I just said.

There is no productive force I can do.

No option to make it better.

Every complaint about imbalanced rules and overpowered units on this forum is the same. All of it fruitless whining.

If you decide so.

Funny our games don't get screwed by GW the way yours are.

Difference? We decided to do something about it.

One post up, buddy. Just read one post up.

I understand the argument, but I'm already boycotting Magnus (and much of the new range) because of the ridiculous price, rather than just the (potential) rules.

Even if fears over broken rules turn out to be just that, fears, I still wouldn't be interested. But hey, that's my personal feeling towards the whole GW beast at the moment.

I'm a long-time Thousand Sons player and collector - I'm already curious as to if the new expansion will invalidate (or seriously cripple) by existing forces without buying loads of the new sets. We'll see either way - no point wringing our hands and furrowing our brows with concern before we know what the situation is.

 Pouncey wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

So all I can do is whine fruitlessly on Internet message boards because I lack the power to actually get things to change.

You could invest a lot of time and effort in house-ruling stuff to death and finding like-minded people.

...You understand my issue is about not having plastic models, right? You can't house-rule new models into existence.

Also, if you wanna look up my early posts on this forum from about 5 1/2 years ago, you'll see me being the most optimistic Sisters of Battle player on this forum. You'll also see other Sisters of Battle players arguing with me about how the situattion wasn't bad.

why don't you get 3-d party

 koooaei wrote:


why don't you get 3-d party

From reading all of his posts, I think Pouncey's issue with GW is not the models, it's the rules.

 kronk wrote:

 koooaei wrote:


why don't you get 3-d party

From reading all of his posts, I think Pouncey's issue with GW is not the models, it's the rules.

You're a fast reader.

Took you no time at all to read three thousand one hundred and eighty nine posts.

Erm, three thousand one hundred and ninety now.

Your reading comprehension could use a lot of work though.

Traditio wrote:
40k players have nobody to blame for just how broken this game is but themselves.
40k is broken because of 40k players. Its their own fault.

By this "logic" Traditio then no company is ever responsible for anything they do. That is in point of fact false. Here's an example: GW writes poor rules for a unit, for this example let's assume they make an OP unit. Now players buy this model, some buy to build and paint it, others to use it for conversions to make something different. Some purchases will be as a gift for a b-day or xmas by friends and family who don't know the game and some sales will be from people just getting started in the game and who don't know the rules yet or haven't bought their codex. Some people will buy the model knowing it's OP but plan to houserule it with their friends to make it more fair because they still think the model looks good and is fun to use and lastly some people (and I believe this is a minority here) will buy it because it's OP and they want to win. Regardless of why you bought it however GW didn't have to write bad rules. In fact it would be better for GW sales if they wrote good rules because a good, balanced game is a better marketing tool than the bad rep you get for writing terrible, unbalanced rules. Ultimately a company is responsible for what they do and the product they put forward. Saying otherwise is like blaming a rape victim for their own rape because they "decided to leave their house that day".

Traditio wrote:

I've said it once, and I'll say it again:

40k players have nobody to blame for just how broken this game is but themselves.

You have a problem with a bloated rule-set? You demanded it by buying models with special snowflake special rules.

You have a problem with scale-creep? You kept buying the giant robots and monsters.

You have a problem with power creep? Well guess who voted "yes" for that power-creep with your wallet?

You have a problem with the fact that you have to go through 70 billion books just to get the rules for one army?

Well guess who kept buying those books so you could keep getting the next most broken, OP rules to date?

40k is broken because of 40k players. Its their own fault.

Two things here: Firstly you're using the same flawed "logic" you've been using all thread. It doesn't work that way. And secondly you keep lumping ALL 40k players into one basket, as if we're some kind of hive mind that moves forward with one purpose. We aren't like that however and we all play for different reasons.

Some people, not all, have issues with rules bloat. Their opinion is no more or less valid than those who think there is a healthy amount of rules in 40k currently, neither is to blame for rules bloat. It is possible to write fun, lore-driven units with special rules that represent their abilities on the TT without bloating the game. I personally feel that GW has not met that goal, but that's just my opinion. Some units actually are in a good place in this regard however, they have fun rules that make them stand out on the TT without making them feel too cumbersome. "Snowflake" rules aren't inherently a bad thing if written correctly and remember that not all 40K players demanded them.

Scale creep is very divisive, lots of players like the bigger units and lots don't. Neither is right or wrong in their opinion, it's just the way the game progressed either way. The scale creep wouldn't be nearly as bad however if certain large models had their rules reigned in a bit to better balance them on the TT. For some I'm sorry the game's scale went up and you don't like it, I sincerely hope you can find opponents who like to play without those larger models and I also hope the larger stuff gets adjusted to fit more balanced in games so no one has issues playing with them. Again however, not all players asked for this but it was delivered because many did want it.

As for power creep I really feel that wasn't asked for at all by most of the player base, it just kinda happened right around the necron codex release. You can't blame the players at all for this however, I was an Eldar player before 7th edition dropped and I sure ain't gunna shelve my army and start from scratch just because my codex got a couple OP units in the new edition. I wouldn't expect anyone to quit their army because it got a couple OP units or formations at all. It sucks for players who have lower tier codexes right now (I'm in that boat with my DE and chaos) and I wish that GW would handle rules releases more clearly so that no codexes get left behind the way they have been since 6th. That's not my fault, or any other 40k player though, that's on GW.

What armies have lots of books Traditio? Chaos marines and nids. Both are codexes locked in 6th edition with nothing but supplements. That was all that was offered to them to "keep them up" with the rest and they were forced to take what they could get. They didn't ask for peanuts while others got steak dinners (knowing that BA,orks and DE didn't get treated much better) and no one wished that upon them but that's what GW gave them. They were forced to eat supplements just to have a semblance of the new things others had been given. I'm sure a great majority of 40K players would be happier if chaos and nids had just gotten proper 7th edition codexes like everyone else. Once again, not the players fault, GW made the decision not to make proper 7th edition dexes. What was the last supplement with all these "OP" rules you speak of Traditio? Because near as I can tell all the OP units people complain about are all in the core books of their respective armies. I don't think people were buying supplement books to be OP, I think they bought them to try not to fall too far behind the actual OP lists.

40K is not broken because of the players Traditio, it's broken because GW refuses to fix it. There are tons of games out there that sell incredibly well and have fairly solid rule sets that very few complain about. Writing good rules is not the responsibility of the players and it certainly isn't their fault they got bad rules. If 40k bothers you so much Traditio once again I suggest you find a new game to play.

 koooaei wrote:
why don't you get 3-d party

You mean why don't I play video games?

I, uh, do. A lot.

 kronk wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
I ordered Magnus at a 25% discount.

Sasori, living the dream!

Just ballin' out of control here.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
I'm not going to boycott Magnus because I think he's OP. It's too soon to know one way or the other, for one thing. For another, he's just the first of many Primarchs coming out, both loyal and traitor, and you can be dang sure I'm picking up Lion El'Jonson when he comes out.

I am, however, not going to buy Magnus, because I'm not a Tzeench guy and because of the nipple horns. I mean, seriously, nipple horns? Whose bright idea was that?

Looks like it's time to rebase and spiff up my old Culexes Assassin though.

Also, my group has a house rule - psykers can only use their own Warp Dice and those generated by the Harness the Warp roll at the beginning of the psychic phase. Tones down the excesses of the psychic phase a bit.

That is a pretty loaded house rule imho. Unless you also house rule the other forms of cheddar.....ie Wraith Knight point cost, riptide wings, super heavy antics and so on. The psychic phase is no more abusive than the previously mentioned content.

 Pouncey wrote:


You're a fast reader.

Took you no time at all to read three thousand one hundred and eighty nine posts.

Erm, three thousand one hundred and ninety now.

Your reading comprehension could use a lot of work though.

Wouldn't it have been faster to just say "No, kronk - actually I'm more concerned with the lack of model options I have" than spin out sarcastic spiel?

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:


You're a fast reader.

Took you no time at all to read three thousand one hundred and eighty nine posts.

Erm, three thousand one hundred and ninety now.

Your reading comprehension could use a lot of work though.

Wouldn't it have been faster to just say "No, kronk - actually I'm more concerned with the lack of model options I have" than spin out sarcastic spiel?

Because this post:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/420/709306.page#9045469

Is on this very page.

 Pouncey wrote:


You're a fast reader.

Took you no time at all to read three thousand one hundred and eighty nine posts.

Erm, three thousand one hundred and ninety now.

Your reading comprehension could use a lot of work though.

+5 points for using the correct "You're"! Honestly, that was refreshing on a forum!

If I was unclear on your needs, wants and desires, it's probably because you never make them known!

You should tell us if you are upset with GW. And if you are, why are you? I'm unclear.

Table wrote:

That is a pretty loaded house rule imho. Unless you also house rule the other forms of cheddar.....ie Wraith Knight point cost, riptide wings, super heavy antics and so on. The psychic phase is no more abusive than the previously mentioned content.

It's specifically aimed at negating Daemonfarming, but it also prevents shenanigans like the OP was concerned about, throwing all the warp charge dice at one caster so he can reliably get off multiple high-charge cost powers.

Our other house rules are a 40% Troops requirement and no Allies, which doesn't directly address things like Riptide Wings or Wraithknight spam, but they do cause players to have less points to spend on such things, and prevents people exploiting unintended synergies between armies.

This thread made me chuckle right from the get-go.

 Pouncey wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:


You're a fast reader.

Took you no time at all to read three thousand one hundred and eighty nine posts.

Erm, three thousand one hundred and ninety now.

Your reading comprehension could use a lot of work though.

Wouldn't it have been faster to just say "No, kronk - actually I'm more concerned with the lack of model options I have" than spin out sarcastic spiel?

Because this post:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/420/709306.page#9045469

Is on this very page.

So, in other words, "no, it would not have been faster to correct him, I would prefer to appear pretentious."

 kronk wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:


You're a fast reader.

Took you no time at all to read three thousand one hundred and eighty nine posts.

Erm, three thousand one hundred and ninety now.

Your reading comprehension could use a lot of work though.

+5 points for using the correct "You're"! Honestly, that was refreshing on a forum!

If I was unclear on your needs, wants and desires, it's probably because you never make them known!

You should tell us if you are upset with GW. And if you are, why are you? I'm unclear.

You've read my posts. You should know what I want and why I want it. I haven't been subtle.

 kronk wrote:

 koooaei wrote:


why don't you get 3-d party

From reading all of his posts, I think Pouncey's issue with GW is not the models, it's the rules.

The Sisters codex is midtier. It is super mono build but Ruleswise it is leagues ahead of CSM, Orks, Blood Angels, and Guard. Price is an issue but eBay and third parties exist.

Jacksmiles wrote:
So, in other words, "no, it would not have been faster to correct him, I would prefer to appear pretentious."

More like: "Correcting him is pointless, he's not reading what I'm saying, I'm gonna have some fun instead."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 koooaei wrote:


why don't you get 3-d party

From reading all of his posts, I think Pouncey's issue with GW is not the models, it's the rules.

The Sisters codex is midtier. It is super mono build but Ruleswise it is leagues ahead of CSM, Orks, Blood Angels, and Guard. Price is an issue but eBay and third parties exist.

Price isn't an issue. I already have enough Sisters minis to field any army I want.

 cvtuttle wrote:
This thread made me chuckle right from the get-go.

I thought the 3 pages about Crisps and Chips was golden.

Golden Brown.

Like Fries!

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

Table wrote:

That is a pretty loaded house rule imho. Unless you also house rule the other forms of cheddar.....ie Wraith Knight point cost, riptide wings, super heavy antics and so on. The psychic phase is no more abusive than the previously mentioned content.

It's specifically aimed at negating Daemonfarming, but it also prevents shenanigans like the OP was concerned about, throwing all the warp charge dice at one caster so he can reliably get off multiple high-charge cost powers.

Our other house rules are a 40% Troops requirement and no Allies, which doesn't directly address things like Riptide Wings or Wraithknight spam, but they do cause players to have less points to spend on such things, and prevents people exploiting unintended synergies between armies.

I can certainly get behind a 40% troop req and no allies. As long as wraith Knight points get roughly doubled and riptide wing is handled I think it would be a fun game to play

 Pouncey wrote:

Price isn't an issue. I already have enough Sisters minis to field any army I want.

Why are you bitching?

"I have all of the models I will ever need, but they should make new models!"

That's really telling GW! You be you, Pouncey!

Table wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
I'm not going to boycott Magnus because I think he's OP. It's too soon to know one way or the other, for one thing. For another, he's just the first of many Primarchs coming out, both loyal and traitor, and you can be dang sure I'm picking up Lion El'Jonson when he comes out.

I am, however, not going to buy Magnus, because I'm not a Tzeench guy and because of the nipple horns. I mean, seriously, nipple horns? Whose bright idea was that?

Looks like it's time to rebase and spiff up my old Culexes Assassin though.

Also, my group has a house rule - psykers can only use their own Warp Dice and those generated by the Harness the Warp roll at the beginning of the psychic phase. Tones down the excesses of the psychic phase a bit.

That is a pretty loaded house rule imho. Unless you also house rule the other forms of cheddar.....ie Wraith Knight point cost, riptide wings, super heavy antics and so on. The psychic phase is no more abusive than the previously mentioned content.

it is. Probably you haven't faced enough 1-st turn assault invisible deathstars yet.

 kronk wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Price isn't an issue. I already have enough Sisters minis to field any army I want.

Why are you bitching?

"I have all of the models I will ever need, but they should make new models!"

That's really telling GW! You be you, Pouncey!

This is what I like to do with my plastic models:

http://i.imgur.com/vz481VT.jpg

That is the most fun part of WH40k for me. Even more fun than gaming.

That is what I cannot do with metal models. That is what I cannot do with Sisters of Battle infantry.

Magnus is 700 points.

700 is 35% of a 2k list.

Thats one third in one model that's gonna be bracketed by every single heavy weapon the other player has.

7 wounds even with the high level saves.
If someone decides he wants to die then there a good chance he will.

Add in various backups and augments mentioned to boost saves higher and up ability then its on for 1000 or 50% for one model and its support models.

 Pouncey wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Price isn't an issue. I already have enough Sisters minis to field any army I want.

Why are you bitching?

"I have all of the models I will ever need, but they should make new models!"

That's really telling GW! You be you, Pouncey!

This is what I like to do with my plastic models:

http://i.imgur.com/vz481VT.jpg

That is the most fun part of WH40k for me. Even more fun than gaming.

That is what I cannot do with metal models. That is what I cannot do with Sisters of Battle infantry.

Except you can. I've seen it done with metal, I've done it myself with metal, what's the issue?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jhe90 wrote:
Magnus is 700 points.

700 is 35% of a 2k list.

Thats one third in one model that's gonna be bracketed by every single heavy weapon the other player has.

7 wounds even with the high level saves.
If someone decides he wants to die then there a good chance he will.

Add in various backups and augments mentioned to boost saves higher and up ability then its on for 1000 or 50% for one model and its support models.

Yeah, if he isn't a GMC, I immediately lost interest. I have a hard enough time losing my Bloodthirsters/Great Unclean Ones to Instant Death, this would be overkill.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Except you can. I've seen it done with metal, I've done it myself with metal, what's the issue?

YOU can. OTHERS can.

I CAN'T.

 jhe90 wrote:
Magnus is 700 points.

700 is 35% of a 2k list.

Thats one third in one model that's gonna be bracketed by every single heavy weapon the other player has.

7 wounds even with the high level saves.
If someone decides he wants to die then there a good chance he will.

Add in various backups and augments mentioned to boost saves higher and up ability then its on for 1000 or 50% for one model and its support models.

This. And okay, let's say through the interactions of other powers and rules in the army, he's stupid-durable. He's still only apt to be able to kill one unit a turn. If with your 700pts of non-Magnus units, you completely ignore Magnus and can kill 1+ other units a turn, you're coming out ahead in the exchange.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
Accidental double-post. Sorry, gentle friends.

Exactly...

One unit, half your list is built round one unit that cost 50% of the points value.

The rest of the list is basically back up to prevent him being mono targeted plus troops you need to claim objectives.

Now maybe 75% is tied up?

Ita not looking like you have much room to flex when your tiring up 1500 points in mega man, support and objective support.

...

Now suddenly he looks far less OP
When 1000 is getting on for what 2-3 wraithknights. ?

Far less scary....

I don't get how Magnus gets the hate and 90 horrors for 90 points don't.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Sisters codex is midtier

Hey, whatever you have to tell yourself to sleep at night, man.

 koooaei wrote:
I don't get how Magnus gets the hate and 90 horrors for 90 points don't.

What is drives me nuts about Tradio's "argument" is that 10 bolters get 1 wound on a gliding Magnus in rapid fire. If Magnus is buffed or swooping then the wound total is less than 1, but there's still a chance to ping him.

Those same bolteres will get exactly zero glances on a chaos rhino. Why is Tradio not ranting that chaos rhinos are overpowered?

 jhe90 wrote:
Magnus is 700 points.

Well, that kinda makes him not overpowered at all. I could think of, for numerous armies, 700 points of stuff that would crush him completely in one turn (two tops). and could still be used on the rest of the CSM army.

 Melissia wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Magnus is 700 points.

Well, that kinda makes him not overpowered at all. I could think of, for numerous armies, 700 points of stuff that would crush him completely in one turn. and could still be used on the rest of the CSM army.

Space Marine Sniper Scouts.
Space Marine Sternguard in Drop Pods.
Wulfen plus a Librarius Conclave.
Skitarii Vanguard.

Admittedly, three of those four examples are from very high tier codecs, but the point still stands. While it does point to a balance issue in 40k, it certainly won't bring CSM to top-tier.

Edit: Wulfen math, since I didn't do it yet!

5 Wulfen with TH/SS on the charge put out 25 attacks, even if some die, thanks to Death Frenzy. They hit on 4s, for 12.5 hits, wounding on 2s, for 10.42 wounds, for around 4.8 wounds after all is said and done. So they won't one-turn him, like I thought, but Magnus is only S8. (Unless, was his Staff SD? I'll assume it is.) He has 6 attacks, hitting on 3s, for 4 hits. That's .67 6s on the D table, and 2.67 regular D hits, for 1.56 dead Wulfen. We'll round that up to 2.

Next turn, Magnus swings again, but again, the Wulfen still attack even if they die. So that's 9 attacks, 4.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, for about 1.7 wounds after saves, leaving Magnus on .5 wounds. Magnus swings, killing 1 this time (1.56*2 is barely over 3, after all), leaving 2 left alive.

That's 6 attacks, 3 hits, 2.5 wounds, around 1 or so after saves, so Magnus dies. It does take 3 rounds of combat (assuming you don't pop another Wulfen squad in there to deal with him) but Magnus can't do jack in that time.

Also, I didn't even factor in the Wulfen Murderpack bonus, which would probably drop him in two turns.

 Pouncey wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Except you can. I've seen it done with metal, I've done it myself with metal, what's the issue?

YOU can. OTHERS can.

I CAN'T.

So what's the issue? You said you have enough models to field any army. Either GW will release Sisters with a new plastic line or they won't. I don't see how them reproducing metal models in plastic is something to hold against them, when the models themselves are 10+ years old and in need of an update.

Yeah, Magnus is good. I wouldn't want him in my games (though I wouldn't make it a "no, never, ever" thing, just a "please don't let me see him every goddamn time I fight a CSM army" thing) mostly because I hate 30k and find it terribly boring and the changes to how the primarchs are portrayed is the most obvious symbol of this... but as far as game balance goes I don't really see much wrong with him for htat cost.

 jhe90 wrote:
Magnus is 700 points.

700 is 35% of a 2k list.

Seems legit to me. I think I can take him with a couple WKs firing S(D) guns.

I typically play 1,500, so 700 pts would be basically half of an army. Is he worth half? Probably not.

If anything, Magnus is overpriced and underpowered. The OP needs to learn to play better.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Seems legit to me. I think I can take him with a couple WKs firing S(D) guns.

Only if you get first turn though. Magnus has a str D Beam that is 18". It's WC5, but considering he harnesses WC on a 2+, about 7 dice ought to make that.
All Magnus has to do is fly up and beam both WKs and it's over. So you definitely want to spread out the WKs

Having personally played against 6 Flying Hive tyrants with 3 WKs, I can tell you from experience that getting a D hit on a FMC is not that easy
But considering the Magnus coast as much as Fateweaver & Belakor COMBINED, I feel that he is priced accordingly. Tsons are already an elite army, so fielding Magnus will be tricky and having 33% of your eggs in the same basket is rarely a good idea.

Magnus's power level is not a valid reason to boycott the supplement. The Horrors "Split" rule on the other hand....

...will depend on if they can use Daemonology. The absence of the rule on their datasheet does NOT prevent access to the rule as the BRB gives specific permission to use it.
Their datacheets must say something to the effect of "cannot manifest Deamonology" or "generates powers ONLY from Change" or some such wording. As the Datasheets for Blue & Brimstone Horrors have been leaked and no such verbiage exists, RAW Horrors can use Daemonology.
Daemon Factor just got a whole lot easier.

-

 Galef wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Seems legit to me. I think I can take him with a couple WKs firing S(D) guns.

Only if you get first turn though. Magnus has a str D Beam that is 18". It's WC5, but considering he harnesses WC on a 2+, about 7 dice ought to make that.
All Magnus has to do is fly up and beam both WKs and it's over. So you definitely want to spread out the WKs

Having personally played against 6 Flying Hive tyrants with 3 WKs, I can tell you from experience that getting a D hit on a FMC is not that easy
But considering the Magnus coast as much as Fateweaver & Belakor COMBINED, I feel that he is priced accordingly. Tsons are already an elite army, so fielding Magnus will be tricky and having 33% of your eggs in the same basket is rarely a good idea.

Magnus's power level is not a valid reason to boycott the supplement. The Horrors "Split" rule on the other hand....

...will depend on if they can use Daemonology. The absence of the rule on their datasheet does NOT prevent access to the rule as the BRB gives specific permission to use it.
Their datacheets must say something to the effect of "cannot manifest Deamonology" or "generates powers ONLY from Change" or some such wording. As the Datasheets for Blue & Brimstone Horrors have been leaked and no such verbiage exists, RAW Horrors can use Daemonology.
Daemon Factor just got a whole lot easier.

-

That's only if he rolls two 6s on the D Beam. That will instagib the Wraithknights, but the odds of that happening are 1/36. He does have an 11/36 chance of gibbing ONE Wraithknight, but not likely to do both. And if you deploy them far away from each other, he can't even hit both.

Yup. If he were "only" 500 pts, that'd raise an eyebrow. But at 700 pts? Eh.

Agreed that the unending recursive Horrors are the real threat. But the number of models you'd need to buy to make that work? Who'd do that?

 JNAProductions wrote:

That's only if he rolls two 6s on the D Beam. That will instagib the Wraithknights, but the odds of that happening are 1/36. He does have an 11/36 chance of gibbing ONE Wraithknight, but not likely to do both. And if you deploy them far away from each other, he can't even hit both.

Sorry for not being clear. My point was that once Magnus is in the air, the WKs will not be able to reliably hurt him, even with a Guide Seer. Magnus will thus have multiple turns to beam them or other targets.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Agreed that the unending recursive Horrors are the real threat. But the number of models you'd need to buy to make that work? Who'd do that?

I would do that, at least with 1 unit of Pinks. I suspect GW will soon release a box that contains 10 Blue horrors & 10 Brimstone horror bases. Until then, I am busy planning conversions

-

Magnus costs the same as Fateweaver and Belakor combined?

Hmm, that's my 1500 point unbound army sorted.

The Three Magicseers!

 Galef wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Agreed that the unending recursive Horrors are the real threat. But the number of models you'd need to buy to make that work? Who'd do that?

I would do that, at least with 1 unit of Pinks. I suspect GW will soon release a box that contains 10 Blue horrors & 10 Brimstone horror bases. Until then, I am busy planning conversions

Overhead at GWHQ...
- cha-ching!

Which, BTW is totally fine.

What with the Tzeentch focus, I wonder with the next M2O sale might bring back from the vaults...

Am I the only one who would treat fighting him like a boss battle? We be interesting to see how he does in 1250-1500 since it would make his significance to the army much more imposing.

 Melissia wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Sisters codex is midtier

Hey, whatever you have to tell yourself to sleep at night, man.

Play it as MSU Melta and Exorcist spam (and maybe a couple of Flamers) instead of going all out. The army suddenly makes sense. Leagues ahead of Blood Angels, CSM, Guard, DE, and Orks.

Or you think those armies are better somehow?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Except you can. I've seen it done with metal, I've done it myself with metal, what's the issue?

YOU can. OTHERS can.

I CAN'T.

If I can work with metal you can too. No excuse outside you don't want to practice.

It's silly to think boycotting buying the models will have any impact at all on game balance.

GW sales have been declining for years, they took a huge hit when warmahordes came out because privateer press did this thing GW used to do called supporting the community, and they actually playtested their rules and made sure they worked. GW still didn't figure it out.

If writing god awful rules that a tuna fish sandwich could see were broken and driving customers away was going to be realized by them they'd have noticed by now. They literally don't even have QA for rules. But nope, they just keep lowering points so you need more models, making formations that are laughably OP but only if you buy 3 of every kit to be able to run them, ect.

That's the corporate world. My company (not GW) has been losing ground for 10 years, it's plain as day, our customers tell us exactly why they hate us, the employees and analysts tell the leadership exactly what the problem is. And instead of doing anything about it we crank our prices up by huge percentages every year and lower the quality of our product instead of actually trying to earn people's business.

Magnus can be killed with a single Stomp/D-shot. He costs over 600 points.

He might be cheese in an upcoming tournament build that someone surely will cook up, but there are worse things out there, point for point.

If anything is problematic in the new release, it's the Pink Horrors and what happens when you take them to the extreme. Magnus isn't an issue.

 Pouncey wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
...Maybe you should think about what I just said.

There is no productive force I can do.

No option to make it better.

Every complaint about imbalanced rules and overpowered units on this forum is the same. All of it fruitless whining.

If you decide so.

Funny our games don't get screwed by GW the way yours are.

Difference? We decided to do something about it.

One post up, buddy. Just read one post up.

Nothing up that proves your faulty logic that there's nothing you can do.

You can do. If you want. We decided we wanted to do something. As a result GW's bad rules don't affect us and we play 40k with more enjoyment than ever before.

Difference between you and me? We wanted to do something. You just hide on false claim there's nothing you can do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:

 koooaei wrote:


why don't you get 3-d party

From reading all of his posts, I think Pouncey's issue with GW is not the models, it's the rules.

Which doesn't mean there's nothing he can do.

Actually that makes it EASIER. Miniatures can be lot harder to sort than rules depending on how specific your tastes are. At worst there would be literally no option but to make them yourself which is something most cannot do to level they are happy.

 Runic wrote:
Magnus can be killed with a single Stomp/D-shot. He costs over 600 points.

He might be cheese in an upcoming tournament build that someone surely will cook up, but there are worse things out there, point for point.

If anything is problematic in the new release, it's the Pink Horrors and what happens when you take them to the extreme. Magnus isn't an issue.

Hard to stomp him tho because he flies and strikes first. That Eldar flyer with D weapons might become more popular.

Agreedo the pink horrors are the worst and have potential to really break the game.

 axisofentropy wrote:
Hard to stomp him tho because he flies and strikes first. That Eldar flyer with D weapons might become more popular.

The problem with that Eldar Flyer is A) Death from the Skies makes it an Attack flyer and thus it loses Skyfire or B) The final draft FAQ removes the ability for skyfire blasts to hit FMCs

I thought of another reason why 2 WKs are actually bad against Magnus: Treason of Tzeentch. Magnus can "take control" of one WK to shoot at the other. Then he can D-beam that same WK and other targets.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Sisters codex is midtier

Hey, whatever you have to tell yourself to sleep at night, man.

Play it as MSU Melta and Exorcist spam (and maybe a couple of Flamers) instead of going all out. The army suddenly makes sense. Leagues ahead of Blood Angels, CSM, Guard, DE, and Orks.

Or you think those armies are better somehow?

This, basically. I take Retributors with Heavy Flamers instead of the Exorcists, though the Exorcists would probably be better. Full TLMM Immolators as transports. No Celestine, no Priests, no stupid CC units, just guns everywhere. You can squeeze 12 Immos in at 1850pts, half of which are ObSec carrying ObSec Sisters.

Built like that they're perfectly capable of giving any midtier armies a seriously bad day - in fact they're probably near the very top of midtier, able to smush similarly sub-optimal lists with ease. A few top tier builds are probably beatable with mech Sisters, but it'll be a seriously difficult matchup, and the likes of Taudar are out of your league - but that's how it goes if you choose to play a midtier army.

If I can work with metal you can too. No excuse outside you don't want to practice.

In fairness, converting metal models is an expensive thing to practise, and it's really easy to mess up. I've killed a fair few metal Kasrkins, Grey Knights and Dark Angels Vets in my time, but that was back in the days when metal minis weren't vastly more expensive than plastic ones; nowadays the same mistakes would cost me an arm and a leg.

okay so can I have a fmc dreadknight? So I can bitch slap magnus the red out of the sky with my greyknights?

 Xenomancers wrote:
okay so can I have a fmc dreadknight? So I can bitch slap magnus the red out of the sky with my greyknights?

I would be interested to see a fight between Magnus and 3 decked out DKs. My guess is that Magnus would still win.

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
okay so can I have a fmc dreadknight? So I can bitch slap magnus the red out of the sky with my greyknights?

I would be interested to see a fight between Magnus and 3 decked out DKs. My guess is that Magnus would still win.

Just 1 - invis force and nullzone up. He will be a coward and fire d blast from the air though :(

Magnus strikes first, at S8 AP2, with 6 attacks (I'm assuming neither side charged, somehow). 4 hit, 3.33 wound, 2.22 go through their Invuln.

The Dreadknights then strike, with 4 attacks each, so 12 total, hitting on 4s for 6 hits, 5 wounds, 2.08 go through his saves.

The Dreadknights then strike first, since I gave them Hammers, and the math stays the same. 2.08 more wounds, Magnus is down to 2.84.

Magnus strikes back, with Force active this time (he didn't think to do it beforehand, or couldn't for some reason) and does another 2.22 wounds, downing two of the Dreadknights.

The last Dreadknight then strikes, 2 hits, 1.67 wounds, .70 through his save. Magnus is down to 2.14.

Magnus then murders the last Dreadknight.

Overall, ON AVERAGE, Magnus can win the fight with Force. If he (somehow) fails to get Force off, or more likely, gets a little unlucky or the GK player gets lucky with saves, it becomes less likely.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Magnus strikes first, at S8 AP2, with 6 attacks (I'm assuming neither side charged, somehow). 4 hit, 3.33 wound, 2.22 go through their Invuln.

The Dreadknights then strike, with 4 attacks each, so 12 total, hitting on 4s for 6 hits, 5 wounds, 2.08 go through his saves.

The Dreadknights then strike first, since I gave them Hammers, and the math stays the same. 2.08 more wounds, Magnus is down to 2.84.

Magnus strikes back, with Force active this time (he didn't think to do it beforehand, or couldn't for some reason) and does another 2.22 wounds, downing two of the Dreadknights.

The last Dreadknight then strikes, 2 hits, 1.67 wounds, .70 through his save. Magnus is down to 2.14.

Magnus then murders the last Dreadknight.

Overall, ON AVERAGE, Magnus can win the fight with Force. If he (somehow) fails to get Force off, or more likely, gets a little unlucky or the GK player gets lucky with saves, it becomes less likely.

And this is not taking it account the various spells Magnus can use other than Force, and the fact that the DKs would not use Force at all, but would try Banishment or Sanctuary.
I still think Magnus wins as I ma sure he gets some sort of awesome buff for himself. I'll have to check.

yeah - with magnus having force it's kind a done deal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Magnus strikes first, at S8 AP2, with 6 attacks (I'm assuming neither side charged, somehow). 4 hit, 3.33 wound, 2.22 go through their Invuln.

The Dreadknights then strike, with 4 attacks each, so 12 total, hitting on 4s for 6 hits, 5 wounds, 2.08 go through his saves.

The Dreadknights then strike first, since I gave them Hammers, and the math stays the same. 2.08 more wounds, Magnus is down to 2.84.

Magnus strikes back, with Force active this time (he didn't think to do it beforehand, or couldn't for some reason) and does another 2.22 wounds, downing two of the Dreadknights.

The last Dreadknight then strikes, 2 hits, 1.67 wounds, .70 through his save. Magnus is down to 2.14.

Magnus then murders the last Dreadknight.

Overall, ON AVERAGE, Magnus can win the fight with Force. If he (somehow) fails to get Force off, or more likely, gets a little unlucky or the GK player gets lucky with saves, it becomes less likely.

And this is not taking it account the various spells Magnus can use other than Force, and the fact that the DKs would not use Force at all, but would try Banishment or Sanctuary.
I still think Magnus wins as I ma sure he gets some sort of awesome buff for himself. I'll have to check.

pretty sure force is your best bet. it's a 1 shot kill. not to mention - if you have psilencers you can attempt to get lucky twice. If I knew I was facing magnus I would certainly have psilencers.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Magnus strikes first, at S8 AP2, with 6 attacks (I'm assuming neither side charged, somehow). 4 hit, 3.33 wound, 2.22 go through their Invuln.

The Dreadknights then strike, with 4 attacks each, so 12 total, hitting on 4s for 6 hits, 5 wounds, 2.08 go through his saves.

The Dreadknights then strike first, since I gave them Hammers, and the math stays the same. 2.08 more wounds, Magnus is down to 2.84.

Magnus strikes back, with Force active this time (he didn't think to do it beforehand, or couldn't for some reason) and does another 2.22 wounds, downing two of the Dreadknights.

The last Dreadknight then strikes, 2 hits, 1.67 wounds, .70 through his save. Magnus is down to 2.14.

Magnus then murders the last Dreadknight.

Overall, ON AVERAGE, Magnus can win the fight with Force. If he (somehow) fails to get Force off, or more likely, gets a little unlucky or the GK player gets lucky with saves, it becomes less likely.

Don't forget that if Magnus activates Force on himself, he gets +1 to his Invulnerable Save when part of a Grand Cabal because of the "Blessing of Tzeentch" rule(Anything with Veterans of the Long War affected by a Blessing gets +1 Invulnerable Save).

 JimOnMars wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I don't get how Magnus gets the hate and 90 horrors for 90 points don't.

What is drives me nuts about Tradio's "argument" is that 10 bolters get 1 wound on a gliding Magnus in rapid fire. If Magnus is buffed or swooping then the wound total is less than 1, but there's still a chance to ping him.

Those same bolteres will get exactly zero glances on a chaos rhino. Why is Tradio not ranting that chaos rhinos are overpowered?

Next thread: "Why You Should Boycott Chaos Rhinos"

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Magnus strikes first, at S8 AP2, with 6 attacks (I'm assuming neither side charged, somehow). 4 hit, 3.33 wound, 2.22 go through their Invuln.

The Dreadknights then strike, with 4 attacks each, so 12 total, hitting on 4s for 6 hits, 5 wounds, 2.08 go through his saves.

The Dreadknights then strike first, since I gave them Hammers, and the math stays the same. 2.08 more wounds, Magnus is down to 2.84.

Magnus strikes back, with Force active this time (he didn't think to do it beforehand, or couldn't for some reason) and does another 2.22 wounds, downing two of the Dreadknights.

The last Dreadknight then strikes, 2 hits, 1.67 wounds, .70 through his save. Magnus is down to 2.14.

Magnus then murders the last Dreadknight.

Overall, ON AVERAGE, Magnus can win the fight with Force. If he (somehow) fails to get Force off, or more likely, gets a little unlucky or the GK player gets lucky with saves, it becomes less likely.

Don't forget that if Magnus activates Force on himself, he gets +1 to his Invulnerable Save when part of a Grand Cabal because of the "Blessing of Tzeentch" rule(Anything with Veterans of the Long War affected by a Blessing gets +1 Invulnerable Save).

SO all magus needs to have a 2++ save. Is to activate force on himself and be inside cursed earth? The is straight idiotic. 1/36 chance of anything wounding him and most everything is going to be hitting on 6's (functionally indestructible). Lets cap it off with the ability to cast 5 spells with 2+ success rate - the rules for this model are everything that is wrong with the game wrapped into one. Tradito is right - a boycot is necessary - and if you are buying this gak - you are actually the problem.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Magnus strikes first, at S8 AP2, with 6 attacks (I'm assuming neither side charged, somehow). 4 hit, 3.33 wound, 2.22 go through their Invuln.

The Dreadknights then strike, with 4 attacks each, so 12 total, hitting on 4s for 6 hits, 5 wounds, 2.08 go through his saves.

The Dreadknights then strike first, since I gave them Hammers, and the math stays the same. 2.08 more wounds, Magnus is down to 2.84.

Magnus strikes back, with Force active this time (he didn't think to do it beforehand, or couldn't for some reason) and does another 2.22 wounds, downing two of the Dreadknights.

The last Dreadknight then strikes, 2 hits, 1.67 wounds, .70 through his save. Magnus is down to 2.14.

Magnus then murders the last Dreadknight.

Overall, ON AVERAGE, Magnus can win the fight with Force. If he (somehow) fails to get Force off, or more likely, gets a little unlucky or the GK player gets lucky with saves, it becomes less likely.

Don't forget that if Magnus activates Force on himself, he gets +1 to his Invulnerable Save when part of a Grand Cabal because of the "Blessing of Tzeentch" rule(Anything with Veterans of the Long War affected by a Blessing gets +1 Invulnerable Save).

SO all magus needs to have a 2++ save. Is to activate force on himself and be inside cursed earth? The is straight idiotic. 1/36 chance of anything wounding him and most everything is going to be hitting on 6's (functionally indestructible). Lets cap it off with the ability to cast 5 spells with 2+ success rate - the rules for this model are everything that is wrong with the game wrapped into one. Tradito is right - a boycot is necessary - and if you are buying this gak - you are actually the problem.

You're not actually thinking about the model on the field. If he's swooping, all he's doing is using psykic powers, and he only has 5 WD by himself. It's like, ok sure he's flying around going pew pew, for 650 points. You can do a lot more with a lot less if you want something flying around shooting things. He's much better on the ground where he can charge and smash things with his staff while casting powers, thus making him more vulnerable but actually getting your points worth for him.

Honestly I don't know why I'm restating what's been said for pages on pages now. Just read through the thread, he really isn't that bad on paper. If you're insistent on killing him over objective secured units or other threats, maybe you need to rethink your strats.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Magnus strikes first, at S8 AP2, with 6 attacks (I'm assuming neither side charged, somehow). 4 hit, 3.33 wound, 2.22 go through their Invuln.

The Dreadknights then strike, with 4 attacks each, so 12 total, hitting on 4s for 6 hits, 5 wounds, 2.08 go through his saves.

The Dreadknights then strike first, since I gave them Hammers, and the math stays the same. 2.08 more wounds, Magnus is down to 2.84.

Magnus strikes back, with Force active this time (he didn't think to do it beforehand, or couldn't for some reason) and does another 2.22 wounds, downing two of the Dreadknights.

The last Dreadknight then strikes, 2 hits, 1.67 wounds, .70 through his save. Magnus is down to 2.14.

Magnus then murders the last Dreadknight.

Overall, ON AVERAGE, Magnus can win the fight with Force. If he (somehow) fails to get Force off, or more likely, gets a little unlucky or the GK player gets lucky with saves, it becomes less likely.

Don't forget that if Magnus activates Force on himself, he gets +1 to his Invulnerable Save when part of a Grand Cabal because of the "Blessing of Tzeentch" rule(Anything with Veterans of the Long War affected by a Blessing gets +1 Invulnerable Save).

SO all magus needs to have a 2++ save. Is to activate force on himself and be inside cursed earth? The is straight idiotic. 1/36 chance of anything wounding him and most everything is going to be hitting on 6's (functionally indestructible). Lets cap it off with the ability to cast 5 spells with 2+ success rate - the rules for this model are everything that is wrong with the game wrapped into one. Tradito is right - a boycot is necessary - and if you are buying this gak - you are actually the problem.

You're not actually thinking about the model on the field. If he's swooping, all he's doing is using psykic powers, and he only has 5 WD by himself. It's like, ok sure he's flying around going pew pew, for 650 points. You can do a lot more with a lot less if you want something flying around shooting things. He's much better on the ground where he can charge and smash things with his staff while casting powers, thus making him more vulnerable but actually getting your points worth for him.

Honestly I don't know why I'm restating what's been said for pages on pages now. Just read through the thread, he really isn't that bad on paper. If you're insistent on killing him over objective secured units or other threats, maybe you need to rethink your strats.

Magnus is easily the most broken unit "rules wise" that GW has ever laid on 40k. That much is already quite clear. In case you havnt seen - change has a beam D shot (meaning autohit - ignores cover and can bypass invis) - in the same turn he can shoot your best unit at your next best unit and possibly cast some novas and witch-fires after. Easily capable of destroying 400 points a turn or more starting at turn 1. Anything a flying daemon could do before Magnus is doing about twice as good.

Why does the beam ignore cover?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Magnus strikes first, at S8 AP2, with 6 attacks (I'm assuming neither side charged, somehow). 4 hit, 3.33 wound, 2.22 go through their Invuln.

The Dreadknights then strike, with 4 attacks each, so 12 total, hitting on 4s for 6 hits, 5 wounds, 2.08 go through his saves.

The Dreadknights then strike first, since I gave them Hammers, and the math stays the same. 2.08 more wounds, Magnus is down to 2.84.

Magnus strikes back, with Force active this time (he didn't think to do it beforehand, or couldn't for some reason) and does another 2.22 wounds, downing two of the Dreadknights.

The last Dreadknight then strikes, 2 hits, 1.67 wounds, .70 through his save. Magnus is down to 2.14.

Magnus then murders the last Dreadknight.

Overall, ON AVERAGE, Magnus can win the fight with Force. If he (somehow) fails to get Force off, or more likely, gets a little unlucky or the GK player gets lucky with saves, it becomes less likely.

Don't forget that if Magnus activates Force on himself, he gets +1 to his Invulnerable Save when part of a Grand Cabal because of the "Blessing of Tzeentch" rule(Anything with Veterans of the Long War affected by a Blessing gets +1 Invulnerable Save).

SO all magus needs to have a 2++ save. Is to activate force on himself and be inside cursed earth? The is straight idiotic. 1/36 chance of anything wounding him and most everything is going to be hitting on 6's (functionally indestructible). Lets cap it off with the ability to cast 5 spells with 2+ success rate - the rules for this model are everything that is wrong with the game wrapped into one. Tradito is right - a boycot is necessary - and if you are buying this gak - you are actually the problem.

You're not actually thinking about the model on the field. If he's swooping, all he's doing is using psykic powers, and he only has 5 WD by himself. It's like, ok sure he's flying around going pew pew, for 650 points. You can do a lot more with a lot less if you want something flying around shooting things. He's much better on the ground where he can charge and smash things with his staff while casting powers, thus making him more vulnerable but actually getting your points worth for him.

Honestly I don't know why I'm restating what's been said for pages on pages now. Just read through the thread, he really isn't that bad on paper. If you're insistent on killing him over objective secured units or other threats, maybe you need to rethink your strats.

Magnus is easily the most broken unit "rules wise" that GW has ever laid on 40k. That much is already quite clear. In case you havnt seen - change has a beam D shot (meaning autohit - ignores cover and can bypass invis) - in the same turn he can shoot your best unit at your next best unit and possibly cast some novas and witch-fires after. Easily capable of destroying 400 points a turn or more starting at turn 1. Anything a flying daemon could do before Magnus is doing about twice as good.

So, anything one FMC at 300~ points each can do, Magnus can do for 650? Assuming two FMC DPs with ML3, they get 6 warp charges combined compared to Magnus' 5, and can get some different powers compared to him filling a different roll each compared to him being just an offensive psyker. Also, his beam is five warp charges and 18 inches, so he has to get pretty close to your models to hit them with it, putting him closer to your guns and retaliation. In fact, most of his offensive spells are 18 inches. He has to get right up to you. I have no idea where you are getting the idea that he's going to just be spamming powers like some kind of primarch of the psyker god when he takes up so much of your army and brings only 5 warp charges with him.

 Xenomancers wrote:
If I knew I was facing magnus I would certainly have psilencers.

Why? Pscilencers wound him on 6s and only ever do 1 wound to him....because he is Eternal Warrior.
Which is a reason DKs would only ever try to use Sanctuary, since Force is worthless and Magnus can deny Banishment on a 3+ (+1 for Psyker, +1 for Ad Will, and +1 for being higher ML)

 andysonic1 wrote:
Also, his beam is five warp charges and 18 inches, so he has to get pretty close to your models to hit them with it, putting him closer to your guns and retaliation. In fact, most of his offensive spells are 18 inches. He has to get right up to you. I have no idea where you are getting the idea that he's going to just be spamming powers like some kind of primarch of the psyker god when he takes up so much of your army and brings only 5 warp charges with him.

Magnus has 2 D powers, 3 if you have any D shooting. The D-beam, the D shot from Change lore, and the power that takes control of an enemy unit and can shoot you will it.
Magnus also harnesses WC on 2+, meaning that he really only needs to roll 1 more die per WC to reliably get off any power.
5 WC only really need 6 dice for him to succeed.

Magnus is better that 2 DPs for sure. He costs the same as Fateweaver and Belakor combined, yet can do a lot more damage that both, although FW & Bels are better support units

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
If I knew I was facing magnus I would certainly have psilencers.

Why? Pscilencers wound him on 6s and only ever do 1 wound to him....because he is Eternal Warrior.
Which is a reason DKs would only ever try to use Sanctuary, since Force is worthless and Magnus can deny Banishment on a 3+ (+1 for Psyker, +1 for Ad Will, and +1 for being higher ML)

 andysonic1 wrote:
Also, his beam is five warp charges and 18 inches, so he has to get pretty close to your models to hit them with it, putting him closer to your guns and retaliation. In fact, most of his offensive spells are 18 inches. He has to get right up to you. I have no idea where you are getting the idea that he's going to just be spamming powers like some kind of primarch of the psyker god when he takes up so much of your army and brings only 5 warp charges with him.

Magnus has 2 D powers, 3 if you have any D shooting. The D-beam, the D shot from Change lore, and the power that takes control of an enemy unit and can shoot you will it.
Magnus also harnesses WC on 2+, meaning that he really only needs to roll 1 more die per WC to reliably get off any power.
5 WC only really need 6 dice for him to succeed.

Magnus is better that 2 DPs for sure. He costs the same as Fateweaver and Belakor combined, yet can do a lot more damage that both, although FW & Bels are better support units

Eternal warrior - holy crap - this just keeps getting better and better. He is immune to all but 6's on d shots. Which he is practicaly immune to by being flying and being able to use your own D against you...jezz.

You know Magnus doesn't know Cursed Earth, right? So best he's getting, by himself, is a 4+ rerolling 1s. If taken in a formation, he can give himself a 3+ rerolling 1s with any Blessing (Force comes to mind), but he absolutely requires support to net a 2+ rerollable. And if he has that support, it has to be able to keep up, meaning Magnus is either on the ground, or you dropped around 300 points on a flying Cursed Earth caster.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Tradito is right - a boycot is necessary - and if you are buying this gak - you are actually the problem.

Nah. I don't particularly care since even if I were to buy that model the rules would be irrelevant for our games.

Now the reason I don't buy him at least currently are a) his price b) oversized horns c) primarch sized models are too big for 40k games.

But what do we care about GW's crappy rules when there's better option available for 40k...