Why You Should Boycott Magnus the Red

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**Weboflies**

Pouncey wrote:

Now imagine that Emperor Titans are standard features in army lists, and every army you're facing features something similar, and the game is written to assume they'll be on every battlefield.

.

I'd either figure out their Achilles heel, or I wouldn't play at 4000 points. It seems like some of you guys haven't figured out that winning is only a small part of the fun of 40k...

**SagesStone**

Pouncey wrote:
Weboflies wrote:
Pouncey wrote:

Cool.

So if I get, like, an Emperor Titan, and I drop it into a 2000pt game, you'd be fine with that? Me having a 5ft tall model on the table?

Imperator titans are 4000 points. Yes I'd be fine with that in a 4000 point game as long as the model was painted and based. I may not play that person again after that as long as that was in their list, but It would be amazing to see my army on the same table as an incredible model like that, and try my luck against it, just once, even if I got stomped.

Now imagine that Emperor Titans are standard features in army lists, and every army you're facing features something similar, and the game is written to assume they'll be on every battlefield.

It's alright cause everyone will have one then.

Except those xenos, but non-Imperials aren't that important at the moment either it seems.

**Jackal**

n0t_u - Back off my nids

I enjoy the use of my over priced biotitans thank you very much!
Even if they have no strength D or ability to survive lol.

**Pouncey**

Weboflies wrote:
Pouncey wrote:

Now imagine that Emperor Titans are standard features in army lists, and every army you're facing features something similar, and the game is written to assume they'll be on every battlefield.

.

I'd either figure out their Achilles heel, or I wouldn't play at 4000 points. It seems like some of you guys haven't figured out that winning is only a small part of the fun of 40k...

4000pts is a standard game size though. People treat 1850pts games as really low points, so almost no one plays them.

**Jackal**

Except 1850 is pretty much tournament standard size in most places, including here.

"big games" tend to be 2.5k+

**Weboflies**

Pouncey wrote:

I'm okay with Primarchs in Apocalypse games, where battles get that ridiculously big.

Not in standard games.

That's the thing about 40k, and life, really... You don't have to be fine with it. There's tens or hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of players out there, and the only one who cares what you're ok with is you... just sayin'. #perspective

Nothing stopping you from organizing games with whatever restrictions or house rules you like.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pouncey wrote:

4000pts is a standard game size though. People treat 1850pts games as really low points, so almost no one plays them.

Where? Are you just making things up so you can continue to argue? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. I've never even heard of anyone playing 4000 except on the internet as a one-off lark. Where on earth are you gonna play a 4000 point pick up game? Get real.

**oldravenman3025**

Pouncey wrote:
Weboflies wrote:
Yes I absolutely do think they belong in the same game. One of the coolest things about the 40k universe is the breadth of scale in the game. you can play everything from a grot or scarab up to a lord of Skulls or Warlord Titan. LoW piieces are awesome and people want to play them. If you were to break them off into a separate game with no little infantry guys for them to smoosh it wouldn't be any fun. One of the best things about the Epic game of the 90's was not the titans, but all the tiny little tanks and soldiers. Taking down a super heavy with infantry, if you can pull it off is a huge rush! The points just need to be reflective of the power level. TAC lists just need to adjust for the possibility of facing this kind of stuff., and if you've got a themed list, you might get stomped. That's been the case since Rogue Trader, and always will.

As to your boycott, good luck. People will buy this, because it's an awe inspiring model, whether they bring it to pickup games or not, and a lot of players want this kind of stuff avaialable to them in their lists, so This is a reality that you may as well resign your self to dealing with. If you just can't, wouldn't your efforts would be better spent doing something more positive like organizing a campaign, league, or tournament that doesn't allow LoW? There's a million different ways to play 40k.

Cool.

So if I get, like, an Emperor Titan, and I drop it into a 2000pt game, you'd be fine with that? Me having a 5ft tall model on the table?

Actually, an Emperor Titan model would be just a hair shy of three feet. Which is still freakin' huge when in 28mm "Heroic"

**Slayer-Fan123**

Pouncey wrote:
Weboflies wrote:
Pouncey wrote:

Cool.

So if I get, like, an Emperor Titan, and I drop it into a 2000pt game, you'd be fine with that? Me having a 5ft tall model on the table?

Imperator titans are 4000 points. Yes I'd be fine with that in a 4000 point game as long as the model was painted and based. I may not play that person again after that as long as that was in their list, but It would be amazing to see my army on the same table as an incredible model like that, and try my luck against it, just once, even if I got stomped.

Now imagine that Emperor Titans are standard features in army lists, and every army you're facing features something similar, and the game is written to assume they'll be on every battlefield.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:
What reason is there to not be fine with it?

The fact that they exist in the game doesn't force you to play against them... But does allow those who want to, to do so.

I'm okay with Primarchs in Apocalypse games, where battles get that ridiculously big.

Not in standard games.

So what if they are?

If there's that much an obsession with small games, Kill team has you covered.

**Pouncey**

Jackal wrote:
Except 1850 is pretty much tournament standard size in most places, including here.

"big games" tend to be 2.5k+

This is a hypothetical situation 15 years in the future where scale creep makes Emperor Titans a part of standard games.

Please stop bringing current standards into it.

**Weboflies**

oldravenman3025 wrote:

Actually, an Emperor Titan model would be just a hair shy of three feet. Which is still freakin' huge when in 28mm "Heroic"

So big you would probably want to play on a table more than 4' deep. That would be so awesome...

**Pouncey**

oldravenman3025 wrote:
Pouncey wrote:
Weboflies wrote:
Yes I absolutely do think they belong in the same game. One of the coolest things about the 40k universe is the breadth of scale in the game. you can play everything from a grot or scarab up to a lord of Skulls or Warlord Titan. LoW piieces are awesome and people want to play them. If you were to break them off into a separate game with no little infantry guys for them to smoosh it wouldn't be any fun. One of the best things about the Epic game of the 90's was not the titans, but all the tiny little tanks and soldiers. Taking down a super heavy with infantry, if you can pull it off is a huge rush! The points just need to be reflective of the power level. TAC lists just need to adjust for the possibility of facing this kind of stuff., and if you've got a themed list, you might get stomped. That's been the case since Rogue Trader, and always will.

As to your boycott, good luck. People will buy this, because it's an awe inspiring model, whether they bring it to pickup games or not, and a lot of players want this kind of stuff avaialable to them in their lists, so This is a reality that you may as well resign your self to dealing with. If you just can't, wouldn't your efforts would be better spent doing something more positive like organizing a campaign, league, or tournament that doesn't allow LoW? There's a million different ways to play 40k.

Cool.

So if I get, like, an Emperor Titan, and I drop it into a 2000pt game, you'd be fine with that? Me having a 5ft tall model on the table?

Actually, an Emperor Titan model would be just a hair shy of three feet. Which is still freakin' huge when in 28mm "Heroic"

Well, it's tall enough that players can't see over it.

You did see that 600,000pts Apocalypse game with the two Emperor Titans, right?

**Jackal**

Ah i see, let me just grab my crystal ball :-)

And its because you said 4k was a standard game.
Scale creep does not effect the standard points of games.
It simply makes the models in the armies stronger.

So in 50 years time around 2k will still be the normal game, much as it always has been.
The units will simply be stronger for their price.

Now, care to actually pick a valid point rather than ideas plucked from thin air?

**SagesStone**

Jackal wrote:
n0t_u - Back off my nids
I enjoy the use of my over priced biotitans thank you very much!
Even if they have no strength D or ability to survive lol.

Really wish they fixed those so I got to see them more often. I've maybe seen one biotitan (was a flying one) to the like 2-3 warhounds, reaver, revenant and thunderhawk I can remember.

**Pouncey**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

So what if they are?

If there's that much an obsession with small games, Kill team has you covered.

Yes.

And if my involvement in this thread were about my own personal situation, I wouldn't care, since none of the person I play with plays Chaos.

**oldravenman3025**

Weboflies wrote:
oldravenman3025 wrote:

Actually, an Emperor Titan model would be just a hair shy of three feet. Which is still freakin' huge when in 28mm "Heroic"

So big you would probably want to play on a table more than 4' deep. That would be so awesome...

Agreed. I love seeing epic huge clashes of awesome amounts of armor and firepower. It really gets the ol' juices going.

**Melissia**

I actually agree, I've never seen a 4k point game. Usually if it's larger than 2k, it's a ridiculous amount intended for apocalypse.

**Jackal**

The flying one would be the harridan.
About the only one i really use now.
750 points for a statline less impressive than current GC's of a much cheaper price.

Lots of S10 and flying though so atleast its safe from all the strength D blasts.

Hierophant isnt worth running as its between a warhound and reaver for cost and dies far too easily.

**SagesStone**

Larger than 2k seems to usually end up as team games, 3v3 at 6k with a decent amount of few things tends to not take up all that much space. Seen more models in 1500-2k with orks.

**Pouncey**

Jackal wrote:
Ah i see, let me just grab my crystal ball :-)

And its because you said 4k was a standard game.
Scale creep does not effect the standard points of games.
It simply makes the models in the armies stronger.

So in 50 years time around 2k will still be the normal game, much as it always has been.
The units will simply be stronger for their price.

Now, care to actually pick a valid point rather than ideas plucked from thin air?

I played WH40k 15 years ago.

Back then, Warhound Titans and Baneblades were for Apocalypse only.

The most expensive model in a standard game was a 250 point Land Raider.

And standard games were 1500pts, not 1850.

Nowadays Titans and Baneblades have their own FOC slot. And this thread is about a 600+ pts Primarch. Back about 15 years ago the estimated points cost of an appropriate Primarch was way, way more than that.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Pouncey wrote:
Jackal wrote:
Except 1850 is pretty much tournament standard size in most places, including here.

"big games" tend to be 2.5k+

This is a hypothetical situation 15 years in the future where scale creep makes Emperor Titans a part of standard games.

Please stop bringing current standards into it.

Seeing as 1850 has always been the standard (with 1750 being an exception now and then) You're being ridiculous.

Hell I'd like to see 2000 be a tournament standard and see what happens.

**oldravenman3025**

Pouncey wrote:
oldravenman3025 wrote:
Pouncey wrote:
Weboflies wrote:
Yes I absolutely do think they belong in the same game. One of the coolest things about the 40k universe is the breadth of scale in the game. you can play everything from a grot or scarab up to a lord of Skulls or Warlord Titan. LoW piieces are awesome and people want to play them. If you were to break them off into a separate game with no little infantry guys for them to smoosh it wouldn't be any fun. One of the best things about the Epic game of the 90's was not the titans, but all the tiny little tanks and soldiers. Taking down a super heavy with infantry, if you can pull it off is a huge rush! The points just need to be reflective of the power level. TAC lists just need to adjust for the possibility of facing this kind of stuff., and if you've got a themed list, you might get stomped. That's been the case since Rogue Trader, and always will.

As to your boycott, good luck. People will buy this, because it's an awe inspiring model, whether they bring it to pickup games or not, and a lot of players want this kind of stuff avaialable to them in their lists, so This is a reality that you may as well resign your self to dealing with. If you just can't, wouldn't your efforts would be better spent doing something more positive like organizing a campaign, league, or tournament that doesn't allow LoW? There's a million different ways to play 40k.

Cool.

So if I get, like, an Emperor Titan, and I drop it into a 2000pt game, you'd be fine with that? Me having a 5ft tall model on the table?

Actually, an Emperor Titan model would be just a hair shy of three feet. Which is still freakin' huge when in 28mm "Heroic"

Well, it's tall enough that players can't see over it.

You did see that 600,000pts Apocalypse game with the two Emperor Titans, right?

You talking about Apocalypticon 2013 held by miniwargaming? If so, I do recall watching it. It was pretty awesome, even if it was a lot to take in.

If I also recall, those scratch-built Emperors didn't fare too well. Nor did all many of the units within their blast radius when they went up.

Bloody-freakin'-epic.

**Jackal**

Thats because the estimated stats of each primarch were the usual bollocks ones of 10's for everything and a stack of rules.

And its called evolution.
The game has moved on over years and has progressed with the ability to cast and produce larger models.

And apocalypse games didnt exist 15 years ago, they were just large games you agreed on with other players.
Apocalypse is a more recent add on to the core rules, which has now been blended into current rules.

**Pouncey**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Pouncey wrote:
Jackal wrote:
Except 1850 is pretty much tournament standard size in most places, including here.

"big games" tend to be 2.5k+

This is a hypothetical situation 15 years in the future where scale creep makes Emperor Titans a part of standard games.

Please stop bringing current standards into it.

Seeing as 1850 has always been the standard (with 1750 being an exception now and then) You're being ridiculous.

Hell I'd like to see 2000 be a tournament standard and see what happens.

1500 was the standard when I started.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Pouncey wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Pouncey wrote:
Jackal wrote:
Except 1850 is pretty much tournament standard size in most places, including here.

"big games" tend to be 2.5k+

This is a hypothetical situation 15 years in the future where scale creep makes Emperor Titans a part of standard games.

Please stop bringing current standards into it.

Seeing as 1850 has always been the standard (with 1750 being an exception now and then) You're being ridiculous.

Hell I'd like to see 2000 be a tournament standard and see what happens.

1500 was the standard when I started.

That's more pickup. I'm talking tournament standard (and i still do pickups at 1850, whether I bring Lychstar or a Minotaurs Space Marine army).

**Weboflies**

Pouncey wrote:

This is a hypothetical situation 15 years in the future where scale creep makes Emperor Titans a part of standard games.

Please stop bringing current standards into it.

This is never going to happen, for a couple reasons.

-To continue, the hobby needs to be able to bring new players in who are often kids, and often working people, with out the resources or give a feth to invest in a 4000 pt 3ft tall, $500 piece of plastic.

-Even dedicated players don't all have the money, time, storage space, transportation capability for a model like that.

-at 4000 pts the amount of models you would need to fill that list if you were gonna go with a foot/ mech inf list would be completely prohibitive. Both from a perspective of time to paint/ collect, and time to finish a game.

Even if it did happen, by that time, there would be plenty of stuff out there to counter it with, not just other models of the same scale.

They're coming out with an epic scale game again, which I really look forward to. There's limits to how much farther scale creep can possibly go in 40k

**Jackal**

Your area plays (played) some fairly low point games then as tournaments have always been around 1850.

any lower and the game has no variety, any higher and it takes too long for some armies to actually play.

**BBAP**

Pouncey wrote:
Jackal wrote:
No, i'd call BS because your massively over the points limit.
Feel free to run a reaver though as that would fit.

I actually don't know the points value for an Emperor Titan. Imagine an Emperor Titan can fit into the points value of a standard game because it's been another 15 years and scale creep has made it so an Emperor Titan fits into a standard game.

Would you be fine with that?

Assuming "scale creep" has advanced to the point where Emperor Titans fit into 2000pts games I'd have armies capable of dealing with it. So, y'know... go ahead and put your eggs in that basket.

**Pouncey**

I'm gonna give up. I don't think I can convince you guys of my point.

**Jackal**

Thats because you would need points to convince people with.

Saying "power creep" and "in the future" do not prove any points atall.

You dont seem to understand that power creep would work on all armies.
So in say 20 years time you could fit a emperor titan power model into a 2k game, you would also have counters for it from other armies.

They wouldnt however reduce the cost of a 4k model lol.

So no, power creep wouldnt make the average games higher in points to the extent its titanicus in 40k

It would simply mean you would see alot stronger units and models on the table.

Show me some valid points and i'd be happy to agree.
We all know the power creep is there, dont get me wrong.
But it doesnt have any bearing on lowering costs of large models and raising the average points of a game.

**insaniak**

Pouncey wrote:

I played WH40k 15 years ago.

Back then, Warhound Titans and Baneblades were for Apocalypse only.

The most expensive model in a standard game was a 250 point Land Raider.

And standard games were 1500pts, not 1850..

The standard in 2nd edition was 2000 points. Since then, it's most commonly varied between 1500, 1750 and 1850, depending on where you play.

Based on that, it's unlikely that the standard in another 15 years will be 4000 points unless the game changes significantly, at which point there is no actual basis for comparison.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pouncey wrote:

I'm okay with Primarchs in Apocalypse games, where battles get that ridiculously big.

Not in standard games.

Then don't play against Primarchs in standard games. Done.

You're free to refuse games that you don't think you'll enjoy.