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 IllumiNini wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
OP post is.. too radical even for my tastes, but let's not deceive ourselves: there is no deep tactics in current 40k. A bit perhaps, but is more spamhammer and gimmicks. You can often predict the outcome looking at the list. Better to do not lecture people on "combined arms warfare" with current 40k, is disingenuous, at best.

Even so, Traditio seems to be incapable of adapting to the meta and what his opponent might/will take. Traditio seems to think that all list can and should be able to be dealt with by a very limited style of list and a very limited style of play. From my understanding of what little of this thread I've actually read, this seems to be one of Traditio's fundamental flaws (and it's also a fundamental flaw that helped in the creation of this thread).

I interpreted it more as "GW is producing more and more outrageous, unbelivable BS, we should stop buying it to avoid exasperate the trend of the game toward models too big for its scale, deathstars and so on"

That is technically true, but fundamentally flawed, as we as gaming community cannot behave like a Tyranid Hive Mind and people, as they answered to similar observations of mine in another thread, could just buy the model because for them is cool (de gustibus non disputandum est) and not even plan to play with it.

So is radical, but I would not be so hard on the OP (albeit what stated is valid for things he defended in other threads, like free vehicles for a certain posterboy faction).

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
OP post is.. too radical even for my tastes, but let's not deceive ourselves: there is no deep tactics in current 40k. A bit perhaps, but is more spamhammer and gimmicks. You can often predict the outcome looking at the list. Better to do not lecture people on "combined arms warfare" with current 40k, is disingenuous, at best.

Even so, Traditio seems to be incapable of adapting to the meta and what his opponent might/will take. Traditio seems to think that all list can and should be able to be dealt with by a very limited style of list and a very limited style of play. From my understanding of what little of this thread I've actually read, this seems to be one of Traditio's fundamental flaws (and it's also a fundamental flaw that helped in the creation of this thread).

I interpreted it more as "GW is producing more and more outrageous, unbelivable BS, we should stop buying it to avoid exasperate the trend of the game toward models too big for its scale, deathstars and so on"

That is technically true, but fundamentally flawed, as we as gaming community cannot behave like a Tyranid Hive Mind and people, as they answered to similar observations of mine in another thread, could just buy the model because for them is cool (de gustibus non disputandum est) and not even plan to play with it.

So is radical, but I would not be so hard on the OP (albeit what stated is valid for things he defended in other threads, like free vehicles for a certain posterboy faction).

You'd be hard on the OP if you've read their previous threads too.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
could just buy the model because for them is cool (de gustibus non disputandum est) and not even plan to play with it.

Or play with rules that aren't actually that horrible. Any character that doesn't have near impenetrable invulnerable(4++ with reroll is max we have possible) and can be swatted by lone lascannon that gets past it has hard time being hyper broken.

So that's almost anything short of nurgle daemon character. MAYBE Magnus by sheer fact of being daemon prince might be tough enough one lascannon hit cannot swat but 2 hits through saves? Yeah maybe not by average roll but better than average and bye bye.

He costs almost as much as a Warhound Titan... I can't believe this thread is still going.

Space Marines are the most common faction in every tournament, and in the hobby in general.

WK's bend the knee to Grav. Of which, in any competitive list, there is a feckton of. They haven't been an issue in the competitive scene for a long time (in the high tables.)

Magnus won't be an issue, unless someone cooks up a build that enables you to have Magnus, few hundred points of support (that stays alive) while simultaneously able to contest objectives in hybrid scenarios (the kind you have in the most credible tournaments.)

And that is a challenging build to cook up, so we'll see if Magnus starts dominating the competitive scene.

I think he won't.

Magnus is held back by the half of the army that is CSMs.

Now if the rest of the points is piles and piles of Horrors summoning the mean Daemonic beatsticks, that might be very different....

 axisofentropy wrote:
why does this thread still exist when there's no thread about the splitting pink horrors?

Because people have no idea how the psychic phase works. The TL;DR of this thread is "People inaccurately comparing psychic powers to guns"

"Oh he's got D beam and can do a D-shot on top off that and probably cast 3 other powers blablabla"

People treat all these powers like guns and "Magnus knows 15 powers" becomes "Magnus wields 2 Str D guns and more". What they fail to take in consideration is that Magnus only generates enough dice to cast his D beam and even then >20% of the time his power won't even go off. If you want to cast anything else you'll have to pump in more dice which will deter the power of the rest of your army significantly to the point that not even every psyker can cast a power each turn.

People take a look at a power profile, see it is stronger than most weapon profiles and immediately cry wolf without ever putting a second thought to the fact that psychic powers are less reliable and harder to use correctly than weapons.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Nah. WKs totally suck against things like mobs of Boyz and such.

the stomps alone will kill 6+ boys on average - plus the 3-4 that died from your attacks...a -10 leadership test - yeah...game over ork boys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gunzhard wrote:
He costs almost as much as a Warhound Titan... I can't believe this thread is still going.

He can easily wreck a warhound titan and is virtually immune to it...what kind of sense do you have? Whats even better is he can take control of your warhound titan and shoot it at your own units. Not to mention I you can kill a warhound with practically any dedicated AT unit in a single turn (might need a little support from another unit). Magnus dying in a game is borderline impossible - It would be a series of unfortunate events.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
He costs almost as much as a Warhound Titan... I can't believe this thread is still going.

He can easily wreck a warhound titan and is virtually immune to it...what kind of sense do you have? Whats even better is he can take control of your warhound titan and shoot it at your own units. Not to mention I you can kill a warhound with practically any dedicated AT unit in a single turn (might need a little support from another unit). Magnus dying in a game is borderline impossible - It would be a series of unfortunate events.

Am I missing something here, "borderline impossible" to kill? ...with a 4++ save? ...sure it has potential for a re-roll and also potential for a 3++...

But why would the same poison or sniper shooting/attacks that wreck my monstrous creatures now, not work on him? ...and he's 650 points.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
He costs almost as much as a Warhound Titan... I can't believe this thread is still going.

He can easily wreck a warhound titan and is virtually immune to it...what kind of sense do you have? Whats even better is he can take control of your warhound titan and shoot it at your own units. Not to mention I you can kill a warhound with practically any dedicated AT unit in a single turn (might need a little support from another unit). Magnus dying in a game is borderline impossible - It would be a series of unfortunate events.

Am I missing something here, "borderline impossible" to kill? ...with a 4++ save? ...sure it has potential for a re-roll and also potential for a 3++...

But why would the same poison or sniper shooting/attacks that wreck my monstrous creatures now, not work on him? ...and he's 650 points.

Sniper and poison or not that prevalent and when you do encounter them you can just fly him in the air. Most armies barring Dark eldar don't bring poison in such a quantity that it'll bring down a FMC with 7 wounds and a 3++.

Like most FMCs, he's effectively immortal. Old news.

Fair point, but with Hive Tyrants you are usually facing several at competitive levels.

And it's not just Dark Eldar, Sternguard are everywhere now for example.

Shooting FMCs are tough to take down sure.

Melee ones have the problem where if they swoop then they can't assault for two turns. One of which they'll no longer be hard to hit. So they rarely do it, making them not much different from jump MCs.

If it has made itself hard to hit, then it has taken itself out of the fight for 1/3rd of the game.

Arson Fire wrote:
Shooting FMCs are tough to take down sure.

Melee ones have the problem where if they swoop then they can't assault for two turns. One of which they'll no longer be hard to hit. So they rarely do it, making them not much different from jump MCs.

If it has made itself hard to hit, then it has taken itself out of the fight for 1/3rd of the game.

When you can cast 5 offensive powers per turn on 2+ success - being in close combat is actually a detriment to your offensive potential. It's the same reason flying hive tyrants never come down to fight you - except this thing has lots of d strength attacks that basically auto pass their checks and can take over your best units shooting attacks. I assure - this unit alone will make people quit the game or they will be playing with one - if they haven't quit already.

If Magnus is casting his full number of Psychic Powers (5, or 6 in the Meta Detachment), and 2 of those are the D powers, he's using at least 13/14 Warp Charges a turn to reliable get his powers off (assuming he uses 4 Warp Charges per D power to be almost sure they don't fail and is 1 dicing the WC1 powers).

The thing is though, he won;t be 1 dicing WC1 powers, he'll at the very least be 2-dicing a few WC2 powers like Infernal Gateway, or trying to cast the WC3 version of Flickering Fire. As such he's be using more like 15 Warp Charges. Where is he getting those other 10 from? The rest of the army, which stops them from casting their own powers effectively.


What's more likely is he'll cast Siphon Magic (boosting his 4++ to a 3++) and wait it out to get more WCs. Any friendly psykers in range will cast their powers until they're all done or (more likely) only 8-10 WC dice remain, then Magnus will choose 2-4 Witchfire powers to use, whether they be the short ranged D powers, a WC3 Flickering Fire and both versions of Tzeentch's Firestorm (it appears on both the Tzeentch and Change Disciplines with a slight difference each time).

If Magnus does what you propose then the rest of the army is getting heavily gimped, unless you're running a minimum CSM detachment just to take him alongside a Horror spam daemon list for the sole purpose of charging Magnus's powers. In that cast you're putting pretty much all your eggs in the one basket.

EDIT: Forgot his unique power was WC5, was treating it as being WC3 like Prismatic Gaze.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
If Magnus does what you propose then the rest of the army is getting heavily gimped, unless you're running a minimum CSM detachment just to take him alongside a Horror spam daemon list for the sole purpose of charging Magnus's powers. In that cast you're putting pretty much all your eggs in the one basket.

I wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Magnus is held back by the half of the army that is CSMs.

Now if the rest of the points is piles and piles of Horrors summoning the mean Daemonic beatsticks, that might be very different....

Let's say we took Magnus and a couple minimum CSM squads - that's 850 pts, leaving 1,000 pts to spend on things that make more magic (i.e. Horrors). Worst case, Magnus dies at some point, and then you have 1,000 pts of Psykers and 2 tiny squad camping on backfield objectives. It's not like those Psykers do nothing - they have their own powers. Maybe somebody transforms into a named Bloodthirster or something. Maybe both.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I won't lie, the OP is kind of my favorite troll. He's some mix of not quite smart enough to understand big picture and angry enough to let that enrage him.

He's earned the official title of Dakka's Fovourite Troll for a good reason, and this thread exemplifies why.

And of course, there's my favourite part of the original post:

Traditio wrote: Somebody please tell me of a TAC answer to a hard to hit model with anywhere from a 2-4++ rerollable and a 4+ armor save.

I don't have the words to express how stupidly constricting this question is let alone what the question says about Traditio.

That he needs to learning the meaning of "combined arms warfare?"

OP post is.. too radical even for my tastes, but let's not deceive ourselves: there is no deep tactics in current 40k. A bit perhaps, but is more spamhammer and gimmicks. You can often predict the outcome looking at the list. Better to do not lecture people on "combined arms warfare" with current 40k, is disingenuous, at best.

This is the guy who expects to take down EVERYTHING with bolters. I understand perfectly that some weapon load-outs (grav, d-scythes and scatlasers to name a few) are too patently broken but if you're going to bother making a non-broken list, make a REAL list: don't just bring tacticals with bolters, a flamer and a missile launcher, don't combat squad them AND expect to take everything down. As far as I remember there's tanks and other heavy weapon choices in the marine range, not just tacticals and missile devs.

OPs opinion is off the rookery by and large, after a ban, guy demanded the mods apologize to him and that, to quote:the moderator in question receive swift and harsh discipline for a clear case of bias and abusing his authority. When everyone and their mother (and most likely the granny's cat) knew full well the one that had overstepped had been him. It goes downhill from there.

Oh god I'd forgotten about those threads (as there were multiple of them about different mods and different infractions).

So, who else is going to run Magnus with three DPs to use as summoning bots?

Magnus flies around and hurts things, the DPs summon horrors! Rinse and repeat.

 Crazyterran wrote:
So, who else is going to run Magnus with three DPs to use as summoning bots?

Magnus flies around and hurts things, the DPs summon horrors! Rinse and repeat.

That actually sounds interesting, and by turn 3 you'd have WCs a plenty, me thinks.

And the board crowded with all sorts of horrors rushing into melee to split up even more. It'd look like Magnus farting horrors.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
If Magnus does what you propose then the rest of the army is getting heavily gimped, unless you're running a minimum CSM detachment just to take him alongside a Horror spam daemon list for the sole purpose of charging Magnus's powers. In that cast you're putting pretty much all your eggs in the one basket.

I wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Magnus is held back by the half of the army that is CSMs.

Now if the rest of the points is piles and piles of Horrors summoning the mean Daemonic beatsticks, that might be very different....

Let's say we took Magnus and a couple minimum CSM squads - that's 850 pts, leaving 1,000 pts to spend on things that make more magic (i.e. Horrors). Worst case, Magnus dies at some point, and then you have 1,000 pts of Psykers and 2 tiny squad camping on backfield objectives. It's not like those Psykers do nothing - they have their own powers. Maybe somebody transforms into a named Bloodthirster or something. Maybe both.

Wrong you still need an HQ since Magnus is a LoW. Given, this can be a sorcerer but I'm just saying for the sake of correctness.

DaPino wrote:
Wrong you still need an HQ since Magnus is a LoW. Given, this can be a sorcerer but I'm just saying for the sake of correctness.

Are there any formation of pink horrors?

Magnus formation from the codex, cabal formation for sorcerers, then formation for pink horrors, done.

There is, but it requires 9 units of Pink Horrors/Flamers/Exalted Flamers and a Herald of Tzeentch.

You wouldn't be able to fit all that in an 1850 list easily, if at all.

Isn't there a new formation that is just pink Harris, and doubles the amount they split?

No there isn't as far as I am aware.

There's a Daemonic Locus (wargear item for a Herald) that does that though.

Yep. It's a loci.

Still, a squad of 20 pinks will become 80 blues and then 160 brimes.

THE INFINITE SWARM!

Blues to horrors are 1:1 (horrors are 2W, but also T1. Good against poison, but otherwise always ID'd)

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yep. It's a loci.

Still, a squad of 20 pinks will become 80 blues and then 160 brimes.

THE INFINITE SWARM!

Only for the INFINITE WALLET witht he INFINITE TIME! (because it would take god-fething-ever to just palce those mobs)... still it could be fun at least to see once or twice, like all forms of cheapness. Depressing that, again, we are devolving to see daemons with a bit of marines rather than the latter being able to be used standalone.

The yellow horrors are just t1, so even if they have 2 wounds, is like if only have 1 since every attack on the game will be instadeath for them.