Why You Should Boycott Magnus the Red

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**Grand.Master.Raziel**

Here's a little thought for people to consider. I've been playing this game since 3rd ed. In that time, I've seen many predictions of doom when some new thing comes out. I've also seen the system and the community absorb those things and keep trucking along. For his points, Magnus is not the worst thing I've seen come along by any stretch.

**andysonic1**

Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
Here's a little thought for people to consider. I've been playing this game since 3rd ed. In that time, I've seen many predictions of doom when some new thing comes out. I've also seen the system and the community absorb those things and keep trucking along. For his points, Magnus is not the worst thing I've seen come along by any stretch.

For his points and powers he is pretty tame and not stupidly overpowered or stupidly underpowered. It makes me hopeful for the things to come in the next year in regards to chaos.

**Melissia**

So a 700 point model is tougher when you bring ANOTHER 100 points of miniatures that really needs annother 200 points of bodyguard to support.

So a few units worth 1000 points are tough. For a thousand points, shouldn't they be?

**Talizvar**

Hmmm, Magnus, a Daemon Prince and was a freaking Primarch who was the pinnacle of psycher / magic power.
As long as a Primarch or maybe two are about an equivalent I would list that as "about right".

**Xenomancers**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Galef wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
If I knew I was facing magnus I would certainly have psilencers.

Why? Pscilencers wound him on 6s and only ever do 1 wound to him....because he is Eternal Warrior.
Which is a reason DKs would only ever try to use Sanctuary, since Force is worthless and Magnus can deny Banishment on a 3+ (+1 for Psyker, +1 for Ad Will, and +1 for being higher ML)

andysonic1 wrote:
Also, his beam is five warp charges and 18 inches, so he has to get pretty close to your models to hit them with it, putting him closer to your guns and retaliation. In fact, most of his offensive spells are 18 inches. He has to get right up to you. I have no idea where you are getting the idea that he's going to just be spamming powers like some kind of primarch of the psyker god when he takes up so much of your army and brings only 5 warp charges with him.

Magnus has 2 D powers, 3 if you have any D shooting. The D-beam, the D shot from Change lore, and the power that takes control of an enemy unit and can shoot you will it.
Magnus also harnesses WC on 2+, meaning that he really only needs to roll 1 more die per WC to reliably get off any power.
5 WC only really need 6 dice for him to succeed.

Magnus is better that 2 DPs for sure. He costs the same as Fateweaver and Belakor combined, yet can do a lot more damage that both, although FW & Bels are better support units

Eternal warrior - holy crap - this just keeps getting better and better. He is immune to all but 6's on d shots. Which he is practicaly immune to by being flying and being able to use your own D against you...jezz.

He's 650 points. Did you not expect EW or something? Like, really?

EW like a deamonprice? like FW? like Belakor?

**Waaaghpower**

Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Galef wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
If I knew I was facing magnus I would certainly have psilencers.

Why? Pscilencers wound him on 6s and only ever do 1 wound to him....because he is Eternal Warrior.
Which is a reason DKs would only ever try to use Sanctuary, since Force is worthless and Magnus can deny Banishment on a 3+ (+1 for Psyker, +1 for Ad Will, and +1 for being higher ML)

andysonic1 wrote:
Also, his beam is five warp charges and 18 inches, so he has to get pretty close to your models to hit them with it, putting him closer to your guns and retaliation. In fact, most of his offensive spells are 18 inches. He has to get right up to you. I have no idea where you are getting the idea that he's going to just be spamming powers like some kind of primarch of the psyker god when he takes up so much of your army and brings only 5 warp charges with him.

Magnus has 2 D powers, 3 if you have any D shooting. The D-beam, the D shot from Change lore, and the power that takes control of an enemy unit and can shoot you will it.
Magnus also harnesses WC on 2+, meaning that he really only needs to roll 1 more die per WC to reliably get off any power.
5 WC only really need 6 dice for him to succeed.

Magnus is better that 2 DPs for sure. He costs the same as Fateweaver and Belakor combined, yet can do a lot more damage that both, although FW & Bels are better support units

Eternal warrior - holy crap - this just keeps getting better and better. He is immune to all but 6's on d shots. Which he is practicaly immune to by being flying and being able to use your own D against you...jezz.

He's 650 points. Did you not expect EW or something? Like, really?

EW like a deamonprice? like FW? like Belakor?

A Deamonprince of Belakor both cost half what he does, and aren't Primarchs. Also, I wouldn't say he's 'Immune' to all but 6s on D shots, since he still has to pass an invuln. (Admittedly, he's got about a 2/3rds shot of passing that invuln, but still.)

**jhe90**

Melissia wrote:
So a 700 point model is tougher when you bring ANOTHER 100 points of miniatures that really needs annother 200 points of bodyguard to support.

So a few units worth 1000 points are tough. For a thousand points, shouldn't they be?

Plus troops and objective grabbers... What 500 + transport

Maybe 1500 before you even wanna top up for flavour, fun or cheese...

**Insectum7**

Xenomancers wrote:

Magnus is easily the most broken unit "rules wise" that GW has ever laid on 40k. That much is already quite clear. In case you havnt seen - change has a beam D shot (meaning autohit - ignores cover and can bypass invis) - in the same turn he can shoot your best unit at your next best unit and possibly cast some novas and witch-fires after. Easily capable of destroying 400 points a turn or more starting at turn 1. Anything a flying daemon could do before Magnus is doing about twice as good.

Having fought against Warhound and Reaver Titans, as well as a Stompa loaded up with Mechaniks in pick up games, I really can't get behind the whole "Magnus is the most broken unit evar" thing.

Also the whole emphasis on D being super nasty is generally over done, IMO. While D is powerful, unless it rolls a 6 it's defensible, and it's rare that the 6 roll really has a worthwhile target. Unless the other player is bringing big, nasty, multi-hundredpoint models like Knights, WK etc, in which case D feels like a reasonable counter.

**JohnHwangDD**

Insectum7 wrote:
Having fought against Warhound and Reaver Titans, as well as a Stompa loaded up with Mechaniks in pick up games, I really can't get behind the whole "Magnus is the most broken unit evar" thing.

Also the whole emphasis on D being super nasty is generally over done, IMO. While D is powerful, unless it rolls a 6 it's defensible, and it's rare that the 6 roll really has a worthwhile target. Unless the other player is bringing big, nasty, multi-hundredpoint models like Knights, WK etc, in which case D feels like a reasonable counter.

The thing is, most players want to bring their mega-point cheese and have it run roughshod over the opponent. S(D) puts a stop to that in a pretty elegant way, esp. if backed by Stomp 6. That's why SMs are so adamantly against WKs - WKs were specifically designed and costed as hard counters to those crutch units.

**CrownAxe**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Having fought against Warhound and Reaver Titans, as well as a Stompa loaded up with Mechaniks in pick up games, I really can't get behind the whole "Magnus is the most broken unit evar" thing.

Also the whole emphasis on D being super nasty is generally over done, IMO. While D is powerful, unless it rolls a 6 it's defensible, and it's rare that the 6 roll really has a worthwhile target. Unless the other player is bringing big, nasty, multi-hundredpoint models like Knights, WK etc, in which case D feels like a reasonable counter.

The thing is, most players want to bring their mega-point cheese and have it run roughshod over the opponent. S(D) puts a stop to that in a pretty elegant way, esp. if backed by Stomp 6. That's why SMs are so adamantly against WKs - WKs were specifically designed and costed as hard counters to those crutch units.

That inadvertently makes WKs a hard counter to everything in the game

**JohnHwangDD**

Nah. WKs totally suck against things like mobs of Boyz and such.

**Ashiraya**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Nah. WKs totally suck against things like mobs of Boyz and such.

I dunno about that. It'll sweep them rather quickly.

**Slayer-Fan123**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Nah. WKs totally suck against things like mobs of Boyz and such.

In what universe?

**Matt.Kingsley**

Waaaghpower wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Galef wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
If I knew I was facing magnus I would certainly have psilencers.

Why? Pscilencers wound him on 6s and only ever do 1 wound to him....because he is Eternal Warrior.
Which is a reason DKs would only ever try to use Sanctuary, since Force is worthless and Magnus can deny Banishment on a 3+ (+1 for Psyker, +1 for Ad Will, and +1 for being higher ML)

andysonic1 wrote:
Also, his beam is five warp charges and 18 inches, so he has to get pretty close to your models to hit them with it, putting him closer to your guns and retaliation. In fact, most of his offensive spells are 18 inches. He has to get right up to you. I have no idea where you are getting the idea that he's going to just be spamming powers like some kind of primarch of the psyker god when he takes up so much of your army and brings only 5 warp charges with him.

Magnus has 2 D powers, 3 if you have any D shooting. The D-beam, the D shot from Change lore, and the power that takes control of an enemy unit and can shoot you will it.
Magnus also harnesses WC on 2+, meaning that he really only needs to roll 1 more die per WC to reliably get off any power.
5 WC only really need 6 dice for him to succeed.

Magnus is better that 2 DPs for sure. He costs the same as Fateweaver and Belakor combined, yet can do a lot more damage that both, although FW & Bels are better support units

Eternal warrior - holy crap - this just keeps getting better and better. He is immune to all but 6's on d shots. Which he is practicaly immune to by being flying and being able to use your own D against you...jezz.

He's 650 points. Did you not expect EW or something? Like, really?

EW like a deamonprice? like FW? like Belakor?

A Deamonprince of Belakor both cost half what he does, and aren't Primarchs. Also, I wouldn't say he's 'Immune' to all but 6s on D shots, since he still has to pass an invuln. (Admittedly, he's got about a 2/3rds shot of passing that invuln, but still.)

Also Be'lakor has Eternal Warrior anyway. So yes, like Be'lakor

**CrownAxe**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Nah. WKs totally suck against things like mobs of Boyz and such.

It's got Stomp and it doesn't need to roll a 6 to kill all the boys it steps on

**Grimskul**

CrownAxe wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Nah. WKs totally suck against things like mobs of Boyz and such.

It's got Stomp and it doesn't need to roll a 6 to kill all the boys it steps on

Not to mention that the boyz themselves can't even hurt the damn thing, outside of strength buffs from things like hammerhand which is hard to get and pull off with Weirdboyz. Boyz mobz literally have to rely on characters or their Nobz with PK's to do anything against a WK, who can stomp them out of the unit if they roll that 6.

**JNAProductions**

Or if they roll a 2-5. S6 AP4 won't one-shot a nob, but all it takes is two stomps...

**JimOnMars**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Nah. WKs totally suck against things like mobs of Boyz and such.

Since a unit of nobs are a significant portion or exceeds the cost of a WK, and all the nobs die in one phase against it, I don't know how you figure this.

**Martel732**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Nah. WKs totally suck against things like mobs of Boyz and such.

No they don't. You're nuts. Or in denial. WK are massively undercosted.

"That's why SMs are so adamantly against WKs"

Only in your mind.

**axisofentropy**

why does this thread still exist when there's no thread about the splitting pink horrors?

**timetowaste85**

Just ordered the model AND the book to spite the original poster. No, actually, I loved the look of the model. But someone telling us to boycott it even if we like it? Balderdash and horse pucky. We're all adults (well, most of us) on here. We can all make our own purchase decisions on our own. And I am SERIOUSLY looking forward to building and painting Magnus.

**JohnHwangDD**

axisofentropy wrote:
why does this thread still exist when there's no thread about the splitting pink horrors?

Because OP is actually tactically terrible, and doesn't know what's really broken?

As opposed to guys like me who no longer care, as long as we push models around and make pew-pew noises.

**axisofentropy**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
axisofentropy wrote:
why does this thread still exist when there's no thread about the splitting pink horrors?

Because OP is actually tactically terrible, and doesn't know what's really broken?

As opposed to guys like me who no longer care, as long as we push models around and make pew-pew noises.

It's true, OP is a bad poster.

Now someone start a thread panicking about THE HORRORs!

**HuskyWarhammer**

I won't lie, the OP is kind of my favorite troll. He's some mix of not quite smart enough to understand big picture and angry enough to let that enrage him.

**IllumiNini**

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I won't lie, the OP is kind of my favorite troll. He's some mix of not quite smart enough to understand big picture and angry enough to let that enrage him.

He's earned the official title of Dakka's Fovourite Troll for a good reason, and this thread exemplifies why.

And of course, there's my favourite part of the original post:

Traditio wrote: Somebody please tell me of a TAC answer to a hard to hit model with anywhere from a 2-4++ rerollable and a 4+ armor save.

I don't have the words to express how stupidly constricting this question is let alone what the question says about Traditio.

**Lord Kragan**

IllumiNini wrote:
HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I won't lie, the OP is kind of my favorite troll. He's some mix of not quite smart enough to understand big picture and angry enough to let that enrage him.

He's earned the official title of Dakka's Fovourite Troll for a good reason, and this thread exemplifies why.

And of course, there's my favourite part of the original post:

Traditio wrote: Somebody please tell me of a TAC answer to a hard to hit model with anywhere from a 2-4++ rerollable and a 4+ armor save.

I don't have the words to express how stupidly constricting this question is let alone what the question says about Traditio.

That he needs to learning the meaning of "combined arms warfare?"

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Yes he can draw los to everything, however you have to look at this in context.

His longest range shooting attacks are 24". One is Str 5 and the other is a Str D6+1 blast.

Most of his other psychic shooting attacks have a 9" or 18" range, and are WC2 or WC3. He is not a long range shooter.

Note that I'm not saying that magnus is OP (He's well balanced IMO) but you're making a wrong assumption: he's 9-18-24 of range PLUS his movement, and he'll move at least 12'', so he actually has a nice threat-range once you factorize that.

**BoomWolf**

Didn't get the model.
Setteled for a limited edition instead.

Maybe I'll get the model at some future point, but first I need 2 more tartaros squads to build a full war coven out of my BoP set.

**IllumiNini**

Lord Kragan wrote:
IllumiNini wrote:
And of course, there's my favourite part of the original post:

Traditio wrote: Somebody please tell me of a TAC answer to a hard to hit model with anywhere from a 2-4++ rerollable and a 4+ armor save.

I don't have the words to express how stupidly constricting this question is let alone what the question says about Traditio.

That he needs to learning the meaning of "combined arms warfare?"

Pretty much. Needs to learn that there's more than one list and one type of tactics he can run haha.

Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Yes he can draw los to everything, however you have to look at this in context.

His longest range shooting attacks are 24". One is Str 5 and the other is a Str D6+1 blast.

Most of his other psychic shooting attacks have a 9" or 18" range, and are WC2 or WC3. He is not a long range shooter.

I'm still kicking myself that every time I read WC on this forum, I think Warcraft (as in the game) instead of Warp Charge haha

On the original topic: I'd buy the model since it's a cool-ass model that looks bloody awesome when assembled and painted. Spiting Traditio via such a purchase is just a bonus haha. But alas, I need to buy more Black Templars.

**Kaiyanwang**

Lord Kragan wrote:
IllumiNini wrote:
HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I won't lie, the OP is kind of my favorite troll. He's some mix of not quite smart enough to understand big picture and angry enough to let that enrage him.

He's earned the official title of Dakka's Fovourite Troll for a good reason, and this thread exemplifies why.

And of course, there's my favourite part of the original post:

Traditio wrote: Somebody please tell me of a TAC answer to a hard to hit model with anywhere from a 2-4++ rerollable and a 4+ armor save.

I don't have the words to express how stupidly constricting this question is let alone what the question says about Traditio.

That he needs to learning the meaning of "combined arms warfare?"

OP post is.. too radical even for my tastes, but let's not deceive ourselves: there is no deep tactics in current 40k. A bit perhaps, but is more spamhammer and gimmicks. You can often predict the outcome looking at the list. Better to do not lecture people on "combined arms warfare" with current 40k, is disingenuous, at best.

**IllumiNini**

Kaiyanwang wrote:
OP post is.. too radical even for my tastes, but let's not deceive ourselves: there is no deep tactics in current 40k. A bit perhaps, but is more spamhammer and gimmicks. You can often predict the outcome looking at the list. Better to do not lecture people on "combined arms warfare" with current 40k, is disingenuous, at best.

Even so, Traditio seems to be incapable of adapting to the meta and what his opponent might/will take. Traditio seems to think that all list can and should be able to be dealt with by a very limited style of list and a very limited style of play. From my understanding of what little of this thread I've actually read, this seems to be one of Traditio's fundamental flaws (and it's also a fundamental flaw that helped in the creation of this thread).