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Pouncey wrote:Your phrasing indicates sarcasm, but your statement is factually correct. So that's a weird combination.

Yeah, see, for a lot of people, it's okay when they get to have crazy-powerful stuff, but they complain if their opponents have them and they don't.

I am being completely serious/non-sarcastic.

That's what's wrong with this game. People have a problem with cheese...when its in the opposing deployment zone.

 Traditio wrote:

Pouncey wrote:Your phrasing indicates sarcasm, but your statement is factually correct. So that's a weird combination.

Yeah, see, for a lot of people, it's okay when they get to have crazy-powerful stuff, but they complain if their opponents have them and they don't.

I am being completely serious/non-sarcastic.

That's what's wrong with this game. People have a problem with cheese...when its in the opposing deployment zone.

That's just normal human hypocrisy being applied to the game though.

Your phrasing indicates sarcasm, but your statement is factually correct. So that's a weird combination.

Yeah, see, for a lot of people, it's okay when they get to have crazy-powerful stuff, but they complain if their opponents have them and they don't.

Or the idea that something could be strong but accurately costed may be an indicator that some people may be intentionally overlooking.

Considering your previous stance on "Taking an emperor titan" to the table, there may be an overlap. The wraithknight was part of a strong army in 6th and was strong then, and instead of receiving a nerf it instead got buffed in 7th while the points cost stayed about the same while the army still got stronger.

Pouncey wrote:That's just normal human hypocrisy being applied to the game though.

What they apparently fail to grasp is that it's just temporary.

The wheel of power-creep is going to keep turning.

And they will be whining again at some point.

How long did the "HAHAHA! WE HAVE HELDRAKES!" phase last?

Yeah. That came and went.

And by purchasing the heldrake, by purchasing Magnus, by purchasing the wraithknight, by purchasing the scatter bikes, etc. with their OP rule-sets, they've just encouraged GW to keep spinning that wheel.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again:

40k players have nobody to blame for just how broken this game is but themselves.

You have a problem with a bloated rule-set? You demanded it by buying models with special snowflake special rules.

You have a problem with scale-creep? You kept buying the giant robots and monsters.

You have a problem with power creep? Well guess who voted "yes" for that power-creep with your wallet?

You have a problem with the fact that you have to go through 70 billion books just to get the rules for one army?

Well guess who kept buying those books so you could keep getting the next most broken, OP rules to date?

40k is broken because of 40k players. Its their own fault.

 Weboflies wrote:

-To continue, the hobby needs to be able to bring new players in who are often kids, and often working people, with out the resources or give a feth to invest in a 4000 pt 3ft tall, $500 piece of plastic.

$160 pieces of plastic are still pretty hefty, though. Knights and similar things are pricey and don't strike me as kid-friendly or casual purchases other than to quite well-off people. It's cool that they exist as vanity items but I'm not sure it's a good idea for them to be normal.

 insaniak wrote:

The standard in 2nd edition was 2000 points. Since then, it's most commonly varied between 1500, 1750 and 1850, depending on where you play.

Based on that, it's unlikely that the standard in another 15 years will be 4000 points unless the game changes significantly, at which point there is no actual basis for comparison.

2nd edition used fairly different rules and a basic space marine cost like 25 points. Things changing that much between now and 15 years out is plausible.

 Traditio wrote:

I've said it once, and I'll say it again:

40k players have nobody to blame for just how broken this game is but themselves.

You have a problem with a bloated rule-set? You demanded it by buying models with special snowflake special rules.

You have a problem with scale-creep? You kept buying the giant robots and monsters.

You have a problem with power creep? Well guess who voted "yes" for that power-creep with your wallet?

40k is broken because of 40k players. Its their own fault.

No, 40K is broken because the designers do a bad job. The designers aren't magically compelled to write bad rules because some models sell better than others. 40K is a competitive game so expecting people to not react to how units change in usefulness is stupid.

Rosebuddy wrote:No, 40K is broken because the designers do a bad job. The designers aren't magically compelled to write bad rules because some models sell better than others.

GW outright came out, at least once, and basically said: "Rules? Game? Lulz. We're a modeling company."

Ultimately, yes, I can and do blame 40k players.

Supply and demand is a thing.

 Traditio wrote:

Pouncey wrote:That's just normal human hypocrisy being applied to the game though.

What they apparently fail to grasp is that it's just temporary.

The wheel of power-creep is going to keep turning.

And they will be whining again at some point.

How long did the "HAHAHA! WE HAVE HELDRAKES!" phase last?

Yeah. That came and went.

And by purchasing the heldrake, by purchasing Magnus, by purchasing the wraithknight, by purchasing the scatter bikes, etc. l with their OP rule-sets, they've just encouraged GW to keep spinning that wheel.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again:

40k players have nobody to blame for just how broken this game is but themselves.

You have a problem with a bloated rule-set? You demanded it by buying models with special snowflake special rules.

You have a problem with scale-creep? You kept buying the giant robots and monsters.

You have a problem with power creep? Well guess who voted "yes" for that power-creep with your wallet?

You have a problem with the fact that you have to go through 70 billion books just to get the rules for one army?

Well guess who kept buying those books so you could keep getting the next most broken, OP rules to date?

40k is broken because of 40k players. Its their own fault.

I think if you saw the models in my collection you might see I don't do those things you just said.

Pouncy:

When I say "you," I don't mean you in particular. I mean 40k players in general. I mean "you, the players."

Of course I don't think that my comments apply to you personally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here are the facts, people:

It's too late to boycott wraithknights, etc.

But it would force GW to do some serious reflection if they end up spending all of that money on molds, plastics, etc. on producing copies of Magnus the Red...

...and it tanks.

Maybe then they would be more inspired to move the game in a different direction.

But no. Buy the next OP shiny.

And then complain about how broken the game is.

That's the way the 40k player base likes it, right?

 Traditio wrote:
Maybe then they would be more inspired to move the game in a different direction.

But no. Buy the next OP shiny.

And then complain about how broken the game is.

That's the way the 40k player base likes it, right?

Here's a thought. It's up to players to be affected by GW's rulewriting. I don't care what GW puts out rulewise. Doesn't affect me one bit. What I want is just good models. If rules are crap fine. That ain't problem. Lack of models is bit bigger problem though. I don't have ability to sculpt models that look anything but junk.

So I'm not too worried about supporting GW and thus "ensuring" they keep providing crap rules. Because GW is irrelevant for rules.

All it means is we'd never see a large cast like it (or other primarchs) from GW. It doesn't mean we'd get better rules,, it'd simply prove to GW that crazy formations are the way to go.

Magnus isn't nearly as terrible as you make him out to be. If he's flying, he can only cast psychic powers. If he's not flying, he gets shot up. If he's in reserves, he's a waste of points until he comes in. Compared to something like a tau'nar (cheapest Titan sized unit close to his point cost), Magnus is incredibly tame.

I agree to a point with the OP. I feel that they are clueless when it comes to actually scaling the game to an appropriate size and things like this do not help, if anything it just encourages people to play the larger games so they can field the stupid thing. I already know at least one person who refuses to play anything lower than 2000 because he is unwilling to adjust his army and have to choose between a few of the things he uses, and he doesn't even use anything to egregious.

This is a problem not because it's a bad model but because it continues the idea of making the game bigger and bigger and bigger to the point where it will never be able to be fixed. We need less of these giant overpowered things, not more

Indeed if you compare Magnus with certain gargantuan creatures as the tau or eldar ones, Magnus is even bad because his point cost. They cost the half, they at melee are even better because the stomp...No mention the firepower they have. And S D shots with no need of waste 12 warpdices (the SD power is charge 5.... xDD)

Even an IK could kill more models per turn than Magnus with his 2 shots battle cannon with a half cost (and at melee he can "stomp"


As I said, Magnust excessive cost makes him bad on the actual meta, where a pod with sternguard could barely kill him. no mention his size makes you can shot him always hahaha.

And snipers or poisons attack destroy him.

 Traditio wrote:
Pouncy:

When I say "you," I don't mean you in particular. I mean 40k players in general. I mean "you, the players."

Of course I don't think that my comments apply to you personally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here are the facts, people:

It's too late to boycott wraithknights, etc.

But it would force GW to do some serious reflection if they end up spending all of that money on molds, plastics, etc. on producing copies of Magnus the Red...

...and it tanks.

Maybe then they would be more inspired to move the game in a different direction.

But no. Buy the next OP shiny.

And then complain about how broken the game is.

That's the way the 40k player base likes it, right?

Yes. Yes it is the way we like it.

 Traditio wrote:
Pouncy:

When I say "you," I don't mean you in particular. I mean 40k players in general. I mean "you, the players."

Of course I don't think that my comments apply to you personally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here are the facts, people:

It's too late to boycott wraithknights, etc.

But it would force GW to do some serious reflection if they end up spending all of that money on molds, plastics, etc. on producing copies of Magnus the Red...

...and it tanks.

Maybe then they would be more inspired to move the game in a different direction.

But no. Buy the next OP shiny.

And then complain about how broken the game is.

That's the way the 40k player base likes it, right?

That's right, I love my Knights, Riptides, and Stormsurges.

How much time would you say you waste on Dakka making troll threads, arguing with people, and generally NOT doing anything constructive related to the hobby itself? Do you even actually play or paint? Will people even play with you anymore?

 Traditio wrote:
Pouncy:

When I say "you," I don't mean you in particular. I mean 40k players in general. I mean "you, the players."

Of course I don't think that my comments apply to you personally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here are the facts, people:

It's too late to boycott wraithknights, etc.

But it would force GW to do some serious reflection if they end up spending all of that money on molds, plastics, etc. on producing copies of Magnus the Red...

...and it tanks.

Maybe then they would be more inspired to move the game in a different direction.

But no. Buy the next OP shiny.

And then complain about how broken the game is.

That's the way the 40k player base likes it, right?

They would just not do Thousand Sons again. If multiple massive and expensive models already sell well enough and one of them is a flop, they won't stop making large models. They'll stop doing whichever sub-faction the flopped model belongs to.

If GW doesn't want to write good rules, boycotting individual models won't change anything. You'd need a systemic boycott of every GW product and a list of demands presented collectively.

Don't forget, gamers would need to buy stock as well. Why listen to anyone who isn't a shareholder?

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
That's right, I love my Knights, Riptides, and Stormsurges.

How much time would you say you waste on Dakka making troll threads, arguing with people, and generally NOT doing anything constructive related to the hobby itself? Do you even actually play or paint? Will people even play with you anymore?

I can't speak for him, but if you want my answer to that question, well, you might be underestimating how much free time I have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Verviedi wrote:
Don't forget, gamers would need to buy stock as well. Why listen to anyone who isn't a shareholder?

So how much GW stock do I have to buy before I can convince them to make or not make models at my behest?

 Verviedi wrote:
Don't forget, gamers would need to buy stock as well. Why listen to anyone who isn't a shareholder?

The only tenable political solution is obviously to storm GW headquarters and collectivize the company by force. Grots for everyone! To each according to their points limit!

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
Don't forget, gamers would need to buy stock as well. Why listen to anyone who isn't a shareholder?

The only tenable political solution is obviously to storm GW headquarters and collectivize the company by force. Grots for everyone! To each according to their points limit!

I think an armed rebellion would just get us thrown in prison.

Let's try sending them angry e-mails instead.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
That's right, I love my Knights, Riptides, and Stormsurges.

How much time would you say you waste on Dakka making troll threads, arguing with people, and generally NOT doing anything constructive related to the hobby itself? Do you even actually play or paint? Will people even play with you anymore?

I can't speak for him, but if you want my answer to that question, well, you might be underestimating how much free time I have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Verviedi wrote:
Don't forget, gamers would need to buy stock as well. Why listen to anyone who isn't a shareholder?

So how much GW stock do I have to buy before I can convince them to make or not make models at my behest?

Enough so that the amount of stock you buy compensates for the amount of money that you would lose the company. If you have to ask, you can't afford it.

Currently sums up my feelings towards 40k from this thread.

 Verviedi wrote:
Enough so that the amount of stock you buy compensates for the amount of money that you would lose the company. If you have to ask, you can't afford it.

So if you know I can't afford it, why did you suggest buying enough stock to make GW listen to me?

Oh, don't compare 40k to Global Thermonuclear War. At least 40k has replay value.

 HANZERtank wrote:
Currently sums up my feelings towards 40k from this thread.

Wow. That's an incredibly old computer interface. That's like DOS, if DOS were blue.

I don't think calling for a boycott will do anything. Players will buy the model for any number of reasons, and all of them are valid for those people. The people buying it for collecting/painting are especially inclined to keep buying stuff like that as clearly they enjoy collecting and painting large, cool looking models.

If you don't like the direction of the company or this particular release, then just don't fething buy it. You'll probably get as much traction trying to change GW by e-mailing them repeatedly (or posting on their new social media stuff) then you will desperately trying to convince the ~30ish people frequenting this thread to not buy a model most of them either have already bought or planned on buying.

Your time and effort is better spent fixing the game yourself, or fostering a gaming community that you enjoy.

Judging by your posting history though, it seems like your idea of a perfect 40k game is yourself playing against yourself.

Addendum because ninja.
Because you can't expect a corporation to follow your every request without significant amounts of money. If that plan were implemented, it would involve mass quantities of people buying stock, and you not necessarily getting your every request fulfilled.

 Verviedi wrote:
Addendum because ninja.
Because you can't expect a corporation to follow your every request without significant amounts of money. If that plan were implemented, it would involve mass quantities of people buying stock, and you not necessarily getting your every request fulfilled.

Do you think I can convince enough people to buy enough GW stock to get GW to listen to the group's collective demands?

 Pouncey wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
Addendum because ninja.
Because you can't expect a corporation to follow your every request without significant amounts of money. If that plan were implemented, it would involve mass quantities of people buying stock, and you not necessarily getting your every request fulfilled.

Do you think I can convince enough people to buy enough GW stock to get GW to listen to the group's collective demands?

Nope.

No. I am demonstrating the futility of that endeavor. Not enough people share your... unique idea of what this game should be.

 Verviedi wrote:
No. I am demonstrating the futility of that endeavor. Not enough people share your... unique idea of what this game should be.

So then nothing I can do will result in change.

But I'm still upset.

So all I can do is whine fruitlessly on Internet message boards because I lack the power to actually get things to change.