With the incoming releases of The Wrath of Magnus and Traitor Legions codex supplements, Chaos Space Marine players, I think, have very good reasons to be excited about the proximate future state of the game. GW is actually addressing some core problems with the CSM rules, especially the Thousand Sons legion. One of my own recommendations, in the proposed rules forum, is that Rubricae should get heavy bolters as an upgrade option. That seems to be a common refrain: "Thousand Sons need upgrade options."

And lo and behold, Thousand Sons are getting upgrade options. This is a good thing. It is cause for excitement.

"CSM need chapter tactics." Again, a common refrain. And it looks like GW might actually be addressing it in the Traitor legions supplement.

So I want to start off by saying that this thread is not a blanket condemnation of GW and the incoming GW releases. There's a lot to be excited about.

However: for all of these things that they appear to be doing right, there is also one thing that concerns me, and it is something that only continues to exacerbate 40k's problem of scale creep, power creep, etc.

Magnus the Red:

7 wounds. FMC. 4+ armor. 4++ invuln that rerolls 1s. 15 psychic powers, one of which will be a D-shot. It's going to be able to shred Wraithknights like butter in close combat. And who bloody knows what special rules and shenanigans it's going to have?

Magnus the Red is going to be a model that's going to be practically impossible to kill, but at the same time is going to have a ridiculous capacity to kill other things.

This is one of those rare cases in which seeing a 4+ on an FMC actually is a bad thing, not a good thing. That 4+ armor save isn't there to make it easier to kill. That 4+ armor makes it more resilient to grav.

It's going to be a model that, so long as it stays in the air, should be able successfully to ignore most weapons that could be fired at it. Somebody please tell me of a TAC answer to a hard to hit model with anywhere from a 2-4++ rerollable and a 4+ armor save.

Anyone?

Even grav isn't going to work wonders against that thing.

And I repeat: it's going to be so broken and OP offensively that it's going to dominate both the CQC and psychic phases. GW openly boasts that it will be able to rip and tear through wraithknights.

That kind of a model is just one of a relatively short laundry list of models that do not belong in the game.

It might even be at the head of the list. It's likely going to be so broken that it will make Wraithknights and Imperial Knights appear balanced in comparison.

CSM players, I want you to consider for a moment how much you very likely hate riptides, hive tyrants, wraithknights, etc. Consider how much you've been watching 6-7th edition unfold and watching the scale and power level of the game go completely out of control.

Were you having fun then? I bet you weren't.

Send a clear message to GW with your wallets:

Enough is enough. Boycot Magnus the Red.

What if I like the model?

No thanks.

We don't know how broken Magnus is until we see his point cost. He could be 2000 points for all we know

 General Annoyance wrote:
What if I like the model?

GW doesn't care about why you buy the model. It only cares that you do.

At the end of the day, here's the question that you should be asking yourself:

Do you care about game balance? Do you dislike the fact that there's been so much power creep and scale creep since the start of 6th edition?

If the answer is "yes," then that should be a sufficiently good reason not to buy the model, even if you otherwise think it looks cool.

Buying the model just tells GW: "BREAK THE GAME MORE! I LIKE THESE OP GIANT ROBOTS AND MONSTERS!"

Or I buy the model because I like collecting. There's much more to the GW hobby than playing with the rules attached to the models.

It's been a while since we've had one of these.

 CrownAxe wrote:
We don't know how broken Magnus is until we see his point cost. He could be 2000 points for all we know

Let's assume for a moment that Magnus is prohibitively points expensive.

The fact remains that there's still the problem of scale creep. That kind of a model simply doesn't belong in a non-apocalypse game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 General Annoyance wrote:
Or I buy the model because I like collecting. There's much more to the GW hobby than playing with the rules attached to the models.

Again, you don't fill out a survey when you buy a model. There's no box that you can check off that says: "Make more models like this, but tone down the rules."

The only way to send that message is if the model sold really well, but nobody purchased the codex supplements, which just isn't going to happen.

You can have whatever motivations you want in buying the model, but the simple fact is that GW doesn't care. It only cares about whether or not people are buying the model.

It really is a binary thing:

Either you buy the model or not. If you buy the model, you encourage GW and contribute to power/scale creep.

 Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
We don't know how broken Magnus is until we see his point cost. He could be 2000 points for all we know

Let's assume for a moment that Magnus is prohibitively points expensive.

The fact remains that there's still the problem of scale creep. That kind of a model simply doesn't belong in a non-apocalypse game.

"Scale creep" is an opinion. it's not actually bad for the game, it just makes the game different. It's not inherently bad.

I have no issues with big monsters in 40k, as long as they are balanced and brought in a friendly game. I'll bring a giant 1000 point flying bird when I start my daemons, but I'll also ask if you wanna fight it or not.

Frankly, we have no clue how insane he will be. A knight or WK is broken because they are underpriced, maybe big red will be perfectly priced, and a good counter to the garbage that is in the game, which is something chaos need, a heavy bolter on some rubric marines won't beat a wraithknight. That is not to say a heavy bolter wouldn't help rucricae, but it won't help in this specific situation, magnus might.

We don't know, but I imagine he will be toasted by his weight in Wraithknights. I don't think boycotting the CSM baddy (while NOT boycotting Eldar) is the solution.

He's a 650+ pts FMC with barely more wounds than a GUO.
He has a 4++, re-rolls 1
He knows all the Tzeentch and Change powers, plus one new power. He doesn't know any powers from any other Discplines.
He harnesses Warp Charges on a 2+ and doesn't suffer Perils ever. He is also ML5.
He has a cool melee weapon.

Depending on how the Tzeentch discipline changes, the only for for Magnus to get a 2++ re-rollable is through outside support from other Psykers.


He's powerful, but he is hardly boycott worthy. More than twice the price of a Knight (closest model survivability-wise), lacks any shooting outside of his Psychic Powers (which range from meh to short-ranged Str D) and if he is Flying he's wasting his combat stats and awesome Weapon.

Plus he isn't a GMC, so unless he has Eternal Warrior (no one with their hands on a review copy of the book has said either way afaik), he can be ID'd.


The updated Tzeentch Discipline will be the breaking point between powerful or absolutely broken. If it can buff his ++ save to a 2++ he is going to be nigh impossible to kill without D.
He'll probably be a Warp Charge void though, as most powers he'll want to cast will be WC2 or WC3. That's going to make it difficult for other TSons psykers to cast more than 1 power each per turn.

 Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
We don't know how broken Magnus is until we see his point cost. He could be 2000 points for all we know

Let's assume for a moment that Magnus is prohibitively points expensive.

The fact remains that there's still the problem of scale creep. That kind of a model simply doesn't belong in a non-apocalypse game.

You can say that about a lot of what's in 40K these days though...

I buy into GW products because I love their model work; I no longer care enough about what GW does with the ruleset since I no longer play it outside of Kill Team.

Vote by paying for Codexes, if you think it will ultimately make a difference, but people like me are not to blame for the rules being terrible because we still buy GW models. Your boycott will have next to no effect on GW as long as people like me buy models because we enjoy them. Good luck convincing collectors to boycott this.

G.A

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
He's a 650+ pts FMC with barely more wounds than a GUO.

I'm unaware of them releasing a points cost. Do you have a source for this?

He has a 4++, re-rolls 1

Cursed earth gives him a 3++ rerollable. I'm sure that somebody will be able to figure out a way to make that a 2++ rerollable.

He harnesses Warp Charges on a 2+ and doesn't suffer Perils ever. He is also ML5.

Do you have any sources for this?

If this is true, that only argues the point for me: this is patently OP.

It's going to make wraithknights and hive tyrants look underpowered in comparison.

Depending on how the Tzeentch discipline changes, the only for for Magnus to get a 2++ re-rollable is through outside support from other Psykers.

Which he'll have. That's not even a question.

Ho boy, another one of these threads. It seems very premature to assume Magnus is OP without even playing against it. Now if he were a GMC, then I could see why you could jump to conclusions to him being OP. Staying as a MC though means he's very, very vulnerable to being knocked out of the sky and mass-fired upon. Poison weapons in particular are a big weakness and S6-7 spam is so plentiful nowadays that you'll almost certainly need someone like fateweaver around to ensure he can re-roll grounding checks. He's not much tougher than a C'tan with more wounds.

 Traditio wrote:
Do you have any sources for this?

Here, from the rumour thread. Information from one of the people who got a review copy.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I have no issues with big monsters in 40k, as long as they are balanced and brought in a friendly game. I'll bring a giant 1000 point flying bird when I start my daemons, but I'll also ask if you wanna fight it or not.

Frankly, we have no clue how insane he will be. A knight or WK is broken because they are underpriced, maybe big red will be perfectly priced, and a good counter to the garbage that is in the game, which is something chaos need, a heavy bolter on some rubric marines won't beat a wraithknight. That is not to say a heavy bolter wouldn't help rucricae, but it won't help in this specific situation, magnus might.

If you legitimately think that there is too much garbage in the game, then buying MORE garbage and encouraging GW to produce MORE garbage is literally the opposite of what you should be doing.

I agree with you. Magnus is precisely the sort of thing that CSM would need to deal with something like wraithknight, a hive tyrant, a riptide, a storm surge, etc.

But do you really want a game where that's even a consideration? Where you even have to ask yourself: "How do I counter a <300 point fething wraithknight?"

If you buy Magnus, you are just encouraging GW to move the game more in that direction.

Oh good, another "if you enjoy something I don't like you're a bad person" thread from the OP. Here's an alternative point of view: buy a dozen copies of this model, because Apocalypse-scale stuff is awesome and GW should make more of it.

 Traditio wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I have no issues with big monsters in 40k, as long as they are balanced and brought in a friendly game. I'll bring a giant 1000 point flying bird when I start my daemons, but I'll also ask if you wanna fight it or not.

Frankly, we have no clue how insane he will be. A knight or WK is broken because they are underpriced, maybe big red will be perfectly priced, and a good counter to the garbage that is in the game, which is something chaos need, a heavy bolter on some rubric marines won't beat a wraithknight. That is not to say a heavy bolter wouldn't help rucricae, but it won't help in this specific situation, magnus might.

If you legitimately think that there is too much garbage in the game, then buying MORE garbage and encouraging GW to produce MORE garbage is literally the opposite of what you should be doing.

I agree with you. Magnus is precisely the sort of thing that CSM would need to deal with something like wraithknight, a hive tyrant, a riptide, a storm surge, etc.

But do you really want a game where that's even a consideration? Where you even have to ask yourself: "How do I counter a <300 point fething wraithknight?"

If you buy Magnus, you are just encouraging GW to move the game more in that direction.

That ship has sailed. Why are you only now noticing this?

Leaving CSM without their heavy, while giving it to everyone else (except Orks of course) is just bizarre. It's easy for us to have a "No LOW night" and call it done.

 Peregrine wrote:
Oh good, another "if you enjoy something I don't like you're a bad person" thread from the OP. Here's an alternative point of view: buy a dozen copies of this model, because Apocalypse-scale stuff is awesome and GW should make more of it.

I have previously seen you complain about wraithknights and riptides and how game-breakingly OP they are.

Do you really expect me to believe that you are excited about a model that will be able to blow up your leeman russes and valkeries with pretty much no possibility of you doing much of anything about it?

Quoting from the other thread:

"-Magnus is a beast at 650 points but he has some crazy powers. psyk 5, draws line of sight to any model on the battlefield, harnesses charges on 2+, never perils, 4+ invuln, and besides knowing all Tzeentch & Change spells he has that Gaze you heard about, charge 5 (but remember all bonuses TS get!) 18’ D, Ap 1, assault 1, soulblaze! His staff is S user, AP2, force, soul blaze and transmogrify. Hot."

So even if you hide your leeman russes, it doesn't matter. LOS isn't a thing.

If you run all the Leeman Russes, you can look forward to Magnus single handedly tabling you, points for point.

You're excited about this, Peregrine?

Yes he can draw los to everything, however you have to look at this in context.

His longest range shooting attacks are 24". One is Str 5 and the other is a Str D6+1 blast.

Most of his other psychic shooting attacks have a 9" or 18" range, and are WC2 or WC3. He is not a long range shooter.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Yes he can draw los to everything, however you have to look at this in context.

His longest range shooting attacks are 24". One is Str 5 and the other is a Str D6+1 blast.

Most of his other psychic shooting attacks have a 9" or 18" range, and are WC2 or WC3. He is not a long range shooter.

1. He harnesses on a 2+, is ML5, is part of an army of ALL the psykers and can't suffer perils. So fething what if he requires 2 or 3 warp charges?

2. He's an FMC with a badass melee weapon. LOS doesn't just matter in the psychic and shooting phases.

3. LOS only matters over long ranges? Again, he's an FMC. Short ranges don't matter when he can be pretty much anywhere on the table that he wants to be.

There is no other conclusion that you can draw:

This is more game breakingly OP than a wraithknight. That quite possibly might be the most OP model released to date, with the possible exception of the storm surge.

Still doesn't seem great for almost 700 points.

So how is everyone? I hope you're all doing well. I'm a bit under the weather, but you know, it's cold out, it happens. Seeing the doctor tomorrow, so hopefully that'll get sorted out.

As for this? I don't think it's really worthy of a response. I, for one, am not going to buy Magnus-not because I think he's broken (he might be-but at 650 points, probably not) but because I'm a Nurgle man myself.

Now, let's see. At 650 points, he's got 7 wounds with a 4++. He's almost certainly going to have EW, since he's a flipping Primarch, but let's see how many sniper shots it takes to kill him.

7 wounds. A 4++ makes that 14, rerolling ones makes that 16.8. Wounding on 4s makes that 33.6. Hitting on 3s makes that 50.4. So that's 51 Space Marines Scouts with Sniper Rifles to kill Magnus in one turn. That's only 612 points.

Traditio, did you bother to do the math? Because I just did. Point for point, Space Marine Scouts with Sniper Rifles kill this guy. In one turn.

Edit: Of course, he can fly to multiply the number of shots needed by 4. In which case, point for point, Space Marines Scouts with Sniper Rifles can STILL kill him, since he won't be able to wipe enough of them out before they shoot him out of the sky. It just won't happen in one turn, instead taking several.

 Traditio wrote:
It might even be at the head of the list. It's likely going to be so broken that it will make Wraithknights and Imperial Knights appear balanced in comparison.

... Imperial Knights are OP now?

 CrownAxe wrote:
Still doesn't seem great for almost 700 points.

1. Dominates the psychic phase.
2. Dominates the assault phase and can tear wraithknights to shreds
3. Practically impossible to kill.

What else do you want for 650 points?

 Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Still doesn't seem great for almost 700 points.

1. Dominates the psychic phase.
2. Dominates the assault phase and can tear wraithknights to shreds
3. Practically impossible to kill.

What else do you want for 650 points?

Did you miss my post? 612 points of Sniper Scouts kill him just fine.

 Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Still doesn't seem great for almost 700 points.

1. Dominates the psychic phase.
2. Dominates the assault phase and can tear wraithknights to shreds
3. Practically impossible to kill.

What else do you want for 650 points?

1) Many armies that dominate the psychic phase do so for 600-700 points so thats appropriate
2) I would hope so he costs twice as much as a wraithknight
3) Actually he isn't. T7 with 4+/4++ rerolling 1s is pretty tame. Its the additional psykers casting buffs on him that make him broken in which case it isn't him that's broken but the additional psykers doing it

Yeah, point for point, 6 squads of 11 Pink Horrors (594 points) gives you 12 Warp Charges to Magnus's 5.

 Traditio wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I have no issues with big monsters in 40k, as long as they are balanced and brought in a friendly game. I'll bring a giant 1000 point flying bird when I start my daemons, but I'll also ask if you wanna fight it or not.

Frankly, we have no clue how insane he will be. A knight or WK is broken because they are underpriced, maybe big red will be perfectly priced, and a good counter to the garbage that is in the game, which is something chaos need, a heavy bolter on some rubric marines won't beat a wraithknight. That is not to say a heavy bolter wouldn't help rucricae, but it won't help in this specific situation, magnus might.

If you legitimately think that there is too much garbage in the game, then buying MORE garbage and encouraging GW to produce MORE garbage is literally the opposite of what you should be doing.

I agree with you. Magnus is precisely the sort of thing that CSM would need to deal with something like wraithknight, a hive tyrant, a riptide, a storm surge, etc.

But do you really want a game where that's even a consideration? Where you even have to ask yourself: "How do I counter a <300 point fething wraithknight?"

If you buy Magnus, you are just encouraging GW to move the game more in that direction.

I don't play CSM, and I don't have any intention to. I think they are silly and can't get behind their lore.

However, I still want them to have a big centrepiece, at least let the people who like the model enjoy themselves, and let the people who have been wanting this for years have their fun.

And from the looks of it, Magnus seems balanced enough, considering he is a fething primarch and the such.

Just a bit of hilariocity, ya'll are saying it he is OP but it seems currently the best way to give him a better invuln that 4+ is cursed earth, theres no need to be so pessimistic.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So how is everyone? I hope you're all doing well. I'm a bit under the weather, but you know, it's cold out, it happens. Seeing the doctor tomorrow, so hopefully that'll get sorted out.

As for this? I don't think it's really worthy of a response. I, for one, am not going to buy Magnus-not because I think he's broken (he might be-but at 650 points, probably not) but because I'm a Nurgle man myself.

Now, let's see. At 650 points, he's got 7 wounds with a 4++. He's almost certainly going to have EW, since he's a flipping Primarch, but let's see how many sniper shots it takes to kill him.

7 wounds. A 4++ makes that 14, rerolling ones makes that 16.8. Wounding on 4s makes that 33.6. Hitting on 3s makes that 50.4. So that's 51 Space Marines Scouts with Sniper Rifles to kill Magnus in one turn. That's only 612 points.

Traditio, did you bother to do the math? Because I just did. Point for point, Space Marine Scouts with Sniper Rifles kill this guy. In one turn.

Edit: Of course, he can fly to multiply the number of shots needed by 4. In which case, point for point, Space Marines Scouts with Sniper Rifles can STILL kill him, since he won't be able to wipe enough of them out before they shoot him out of the sky. It just won't happen in one turn, instead taking several.

Did you take Hard to Hit and psychic powers into account?

Sniper are hitting him on 6s, wounding on 4s and bypassing the invuln, best case scenario, assuming a 3++ rerollable save is failed. I won't even factor in the possibility of a 2++ rerollable:

1/6 X 1/2 = 1/12. 1 in 12 sniper shots will trigger a saving throw if he's flying.

12 X 1/3 = 1/36. Only 1/36 shots will bypass the initial 3++ save. Half of those will trigger a reroll. Half of those will directly cause a wound. So 1/72 will cause a wound right off the bat. In the other half of the time, the die is getting rerolled and will only bypass the invuln 1 in 3 times. So 1/72 X 1/3 = 1/216.

That comes out to 4/216 or 2/153.

It would take roughly 75 sniper shots to cause a single unsaved wound. It would 525 sniper shots, on average, to take down Magnus the Red if he stays in the air.

But let's assume that the CSM player stupidly keeps him on the ground the whole game, and he's facing off against an army of ONLY SM scouts with sniper rifles:

2/3 X 1/2 = 1/3. Every 3rd shot triggers a saving throw. 1/3 X 1/3 = 1/9. Every 9th shot causes either a wound or a reroll. This means that every 9th shot will trigger a reroll, and every 18th shot will cause a wound.

1/18 X 1/3 = 1/54.

4/54 = 2/27. It would take more than13 shots to cause a single unsaved wound against Magnus. More than 91 shots to take him down completely.

And that's if Magnus remains on the ground and is standing right out in the open basically waving to the scouts and saying: "HI! HERE I AM! SHOOT ME! LET ME PUT A TARGET ON MY CHEST! YOU CAN DO IIIIT!" FOR THE WHOLE GAME!

Magnus is OP durable. He shouldn't be a thing.

And where are you getting a 3+ from? Magnus doesn't have Cursed Earth.

If Magnus is in the air for hard to hit then his only source of damage is witchfires which is not worth 700 points

Feel free to refuse to play against him.

As for a boycott... nah. He's awesome. He's a daemon primarch. He seems about as strong as he should be.

How about another option. That being you can buy him and not use him in casual games but include him when you are facing tau,eldar and gladius cheese. Its about time CSM got some heavy hitters.

Let's assume a 4+ rerollable.

1/6 X 1/2 = 1/12 to trigger a saving throw.

1/12 X 1/2 = 1/24 to either wound or trigger a reroll.
1/24 X 2/3 = 2/72 or 1/36 cause a wound outright.
1/72 trigger a reroll, half of which get saved. So 1/144 bypass the reroll.

Adding it up, that means that 5/144 sniper shots cause an unsaved wound against a flying Magnus.

5/144 X 1/7 = 5/1008

It would still take over 200 sniper shots to take down a flying magnus.

Grounded magnus in plain sight:

2/3 X 1/2 = 1/3.
1/3 X 1/2 = 1/6 to wound or trigger a reroll
1/6 X 2/3 = 2/18
1/18 X 1/2 = 1/36
4/36 + 1/36 = 5/36
5/36 X 1/7 = 5/192

If Magnus stays on the ground, has absolutely no buffs and is in plain sight the whole game, it would take roughly 40 shots to take Magnus down.

That said, these hypotheses are unreasonable:

1. Who takes that many snipers?
2. Who is going to run Magnus without some way to increase his invuln?

I propose that instead of boycotting Magnus, we should boycott the Wraith Knight, the Riptide, and Grav Weapons.

You know, the actual things causing the problem, not the thing that is still largely a rumor up in the air and isn't abused by anyone who can't stand the thought of losing to the point that they'd start boycotts against any remote perceived threat against.

 Traditio wrote:
I have previously seen you complain about wraithknights and riptides and how game-breakingly OP they are.

That is a problem with their point cost and specific rules, not the general concept of "giant models in 40k". If they cost 900 points each there wouldn't be a problem.

Do you really expect me to believe that you are excited about a model that will be able to blow up your leeman russes and valkeries with pretty much no possibility of you doing much of anything about it?

Again, point costs. The problem is not the existence of a model that can blow up LRBTs and Valkyries, the possible problem is if it's too cheap for the damage it can do. If it has the right point cost for its power then it's fine. It will kill lots of stuff, but it will require such a huge investment that you can win the game elsewhere.

Oh! I got it!

Two max Sternguard Squads (440 Points) and three drop pods (105 points). 545 points total. Also, they're Imperial Fists. This matters.

If they get first turn (so no chance to buff Magnus, no chance for Magnus to get in the air, etc. etc.) they deepstrike in and shoot 40 Hellfire rounds at him. 26.67 hit, and of the 13.33 that miss, 6.67 are 1s. Those get rerolled into 4.44 more hits, for 31.11 hits total. They wound on 2s, for 25.93 wounds total. Magnus saves half (12.96) and has 4.32 rerolls, for 2.16 more saves. However, 8.65 wounds go through. Enough to kill the fether.

"But wait!" you say. "That's only a 50% chance to kill Magnus!"

To which I say, you have 105 points left over. Take Coteaz, and, I dunno. Melta Bombs. Anyway, now you can reroll seizing the initiative and force your opponent to reroll his successful siezes.

So, out of 72 games, you go first in 36. In one of those 36, your opponent rolls a 6 twice in a row and siezes.

In the other 36, in which your opponent goes first, you seize in 6. Out of the remaining 30, your reroll gives you 5 more seizes. So that's 11 seized games for you, and only 1 for your opponent.

So out of 72 games, you go first (and in all likelihood, kill Magnus turn one) in 46/72 or 63.89% of all games.

As a Thousand Sons player, who has played a terrible codex and had to play against the cheese of eldar, space marines, and others, I hope to God Magnus and the entire 1ksons line is overpowered. I hope this so I can smash your wraith knights, riptides and gladiuses to pieces. Will be just desserts for the crap I've had to work with compared to your easy mode.

Azoqu wrote:
As a Thousand Sons player, who has played a terrible codex and had to play against the cheese of eldar, space marines, and others, I hope to God Magnus and the entire 1ksons line is overpowered. I hope this so I can smash your wraith knights, riptides and gladiuses to pieces. Will be just desserts for the crap I've had to work with compared to your easy mode.

This is how you make a terrible environment.

Azoqu wrote:
As a Thousand Sons player, who has played a terrible codex and had to play against the cheese of eldar, space marines, and others, I hope to God Magnus and the entire 1ksons line is overpowered. I hope this so I can smash your wraith knights, riptides and gladiuses to pieces. Will be just desserts for the crap I've had to work with compared to your easy mode.

That's not quite fair. While it might feel satisfying to say "Screw you, you bleeping bleepers, I'm the OP one now!" it's for the best as a community if everything is actually balanced.

The fact that there exists a way to (semi)-reliably kill a unit, even on turn 1, doesn't make that unit not-OP.

If I see that my opponent has a wraithknight, I can, 100% of the time, insist that he either replace the wraithknight with something else, or else, refuse the game.

That doesn't make wraithknights not a problem.

Also, this thread is arguable pointless, considering the fact that basically everyone disagrees.

I think that says something about the community, and the fact the majority of people want Magnus.

Okay. What's your point-for-point effective way to kill a Wraithknight?

Because Sternguard are not an OP unit. They're a damn good unit, but costed appropriately. What's your 300 point solution to a Wraithknight?

 Traditio wrote:
The fact that there exists a way to (semi)-reliably kill a unit, even on turn 1, doesn't make that unit not-OP.

If I see that my opponent has a wraithknight, I can, 100% of the time, insist that he either replace the wraithknight with something else, or else, refuse the game.

That doesn't make wraithknights not a problem.

Or maybe you're blowing things out of proportion. Just a tad.

I don't think anyone is really going to be convinced. Your points are well made, and you've made your case. I think we mostly just disagree with how OP he is. Formations/rules may yet prove us wrong, but so far he's legit AFAIC.

 Traditio wrote:
The fact that there exists a way to (semi)-reliably kill a unit, even on turn 1, doesn't make that unit not-OP.

If I see that my opponent has a wraithknight, I can, 100% of the time, insist that he either replace the wraithknight with something else, or else, refuse the game.

That doesn't make wraithknights not a problem.

If my DW go first, they will make mince meat out of Magnus. They will turn him inside out and dance on his corpse, they haven't done the same to a WK (but to be fair, I have only faced one with DW a few times)

I think you're overeacting a bit here. Plus you're going off on GW marketing.
I seriously doubt he's going to be cutting down wraith knights en masse based on what we know so far.
Considering his stat-line with force, he would maybe kill one....maybe. And a wraith knight only needs a single six to kill magnus, for half his points.

Magnus won't be eating baneblades for breakfast either. He'll have maybe two psychic powers with strength D. Even with harnessing on a 2+ that's substantially worse than normal ranged D. He'll need to harness the warp charges, then not get denied AND not have to deal with sisters of silence or culexus'. Only then does even get to roll to hit.
He's not ahriman either, he can only cast those two powers and that's it.

I have a sneaking suspicion that he will be more of a force multiplier with the new tzeentch powers. They seem to have a detachment based on receiving blessing and the daemon tzeentch powers don't have any. He'll probably be decent but so far I'm not getting a must-have vibe from him. Not at 650 points.

And big units isn't bad per se, I just wish they would divide 40k more clearly in scale. And unrelated to even that, it's a model of a daemon primarch...F-YEA!
Oh and I wouldn't put too much stock into him getting the FW primarch special rule gift bag. It's GW, not FW. That said, I hope he does.

Boycott things that matter. If you don't like your toys get another hobby.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay. What's your point-for-point effective way to kill a Wraithknight?

Because Sternguard are not an OP unit. They're a damn good unit, but costed appropriately. What's your 300 point solution to a Wraithknight?

Feth if I know.

But if I really need to come up with one, even if I find one, that doesn't make a wraithknight not OP.

The fact that you can pull out a random option to deal with a given unit doesn't make that unit not OP.

Yes, if you put Magnus in plain sight with absolutely nobody around to block my drop pods from being able to land within 12 inches (and if you do, then rookie move on your part), and I go first or seize the initiative (the latter is more favorable, since you're more likely to deploy Magnus aggressively), then sure, I can potentially kill Magnus on turn 1 if I take this very specific unit combination.

But why should I have to do that?

This is what annoys me about 40k players:

They talk out of both sides of their mouth:

1. I DON'T LIKE LIMITATIONS! I WANT TO PLAY WHATEVER I WANT!
2. NO COMPLAINING! IF YOU TAKE THIS VERY SPECIFIC SNOWFLAKE COMBINATION, YOU CAN DEAL WITH IT!

Two Sternguard and three Drop Pods is not overly specific. It's a great all-rounder 545 points that's capable of handling a wide variety of threats. Coteaz is a bit more niche, agreed, but then again, Magnus is a 650 point model. My local store's agreement is that no single model should ever be more than about a third of your list, so that makes Magnus only available in 1850+ games (yes, technically it should be 1950, but 1850 is a far more common number) in which you really should have the power to take him on.

Right on the bottom right of the post, there's an exalt button.

I'd boycott it on account of how absurd I think it looks- if I had any reason to buy it that is. As I don't, I couldn't care less.

 CrownAxe wrote:
"Scale creep" is an opinion. it's not actually bad for the game, it just makes the game different. It's not inherently bad.

This I would dispute. There's a ton of stuff that flows from the scale of the game. A game that creeps too far from the scale the rules are designed for risks breaking the rules. Just look at D weapons and how they ignore a bunch of traditional interactions.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Right on the bottom right of the post, there's an exalt button.

Thank You!

I just don't get this thread.

One unit of Traktor Kannons will get a wound on him, and likely land him.

Then 4 medium units of choppa boyz will finish him off. Without nobz.

For less than 600 pts...of which the vast majority of the orks will survive to kill again.

Try that against a wraithnight and it won't even get a scratch.

I think i agree with whoever made the comment somewhere that super-heavies, gargantuans and possibly flyers don't belong in normal 40k but rather epic 40k or possibly apocalypse. Sadly we have a book where you can field an army of knights if you wish. That just astounds me considering that shield that boosts defenses in one direction that i saw one with. I do agree the big stuff is kinda dumb but instead of axe it perhaps they should move it into apocalypse or something or allow people to play more normal lists. If only i could set up a game with somebody at a FLGS rather than GW and just put restrictions on Gargantuans and super heavies i'd probably be fine with most of 40k.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Two Sternguard and three Drop Pods is not overly specific. It's a great all-rounder 545 points that's capable of handling a wide variety of threats. Coteaz is a bit more niche, agreed, but then again, Magnus is a 650 point model. My local store's agreement is that no single model should ever be more than about a third of your list, so that makes Magnus only available in 1850+ games (yes, technically it should be 1950, but 1850 is a far more common number) in which you really should have the power to take him on.

How would you kill it with an Imperial Guard list (using only Codex: Astra Militarum)?

A vanilla space marine list that doesn't use drop pods (and all units must be drawn from Codex: Space Marines)?

Gray Knights (and only gray knights)?

Imperial Knights (and only imperial knights)?

Tyrranids (and only tyrranids)?

Adepta Sororitas (all models must be drawn from the codex)?

Orks (all models must be drawn from the codex)?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And again, that 4++ rerollable is a joke. We all know that's going to be a 3++ rerollable or better in practice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gummyofallbears wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
The fact that there exists a way to (semi)-reliably kill a unit, even on turn 1, doesn't make that unit not-OP.

If I see that my opponent has a wraithknight, I can, 100% of the time, insist that he either replace the wraithknight with something else, or else, refuse the game.

That doesn't make wraithknights not a problem.

If my DW go first, they will make mince meat out of Magnus. They will turn him inside out and dance on his corpse, they haven't done the same to a WK (but to be fair, I have only faced one with DW a few times)

What if you go second?

What if Magnus is placed in reserves?

Horde armies dont have anything to worry about in low to medium point games (provide magnus is around 700 points) a successful tarpit with fealess models will lose any 1000 sons player half their army, remember, in 1500 point games your opponent has sinked half their points in 1 model. So long as your not playing purge the alien I suspect you wont have a hard time. If he is flying about casting spells he is hardly worth his point value considering the final FAQ states he can only cast as many powers up to his psyker level, meaning what, 5 powers per turn? Eldar are much more formidable. Where magnus shines is his crazy combat stats, any tzeench player knows improving that 4+ to a 2+ re-rollable is easy, it only requires 1 herald and 30 points of wargear. That is if you dont get lucky with the warpstorm table, then its eaven easier. So primarily to get his value you want him in combat. And wasting 2 to 3 turns killing 100 points of fearless models, which is easy to get in most horde armies could very well lose them the game.

The only armies that need to worry are the cheesy gakky armies, what, you want to bring 2 imperial knights? Sorry they are dead. You want to bring wraithknights? Sorry, dead. Superfriends? More like super dead. Any high points sink will increase magnus' value on the board.

We shouldnt boycott magnus, we should celibrate his arrival, underpowered codexes will rejoice as fenris burns along with gakky armies.

He could be literally unkillable for free and not be OP.
We have no idea what kind of damage he is able to dish out. 5 warp charges and a few random strength psychic powers aren't exactly the most scary thing in the world for that many points.

How would you kill it with an Imperial Guard list (using only Codex: Astra Militarum)?

A vanilla space marine list that doesn't use drop pods (and all units must be drawn from Codex: Space Marines)?

Gray Knights (and only gray knights)?

Imperial Knights (and only imperial knights)?

Tyrranids (and only tyrranids)?

Adepta Sororitas (all models must be drawn from the codex)?

Orks (all models must be drawn from the codex)?

You shoot it.

I don't get why no Drop Pods was specified-Drop Pods are a damn useful tool.

Boo hoo...
I plan on buying two.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I don't get why no Drop Pods was specified-Drop Pods are a damn useful tool.

As with his other threads , he takes the well know counters to things as says you can't use them "because" and i assume its "because" it guts his entire argument
It is also is for the fact with he would have to not only buy those models but also that he refuses to change his lists in the slightest way. see his other threads where tac can't kill something its op or other such nonsense.

In addition to the traktor kannon / boy combination, any full unit of tankbustas or lootas gets 1 wound on him per turn.

And he's going to hit me with a couple of witchfires? Fry up a couple of boyz? Why would I care?

The Orks are terrified snotless of almost everything in 40k.

Magnus isn't one of them.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I don't get why no Drop Pods was specified-Drop Pods are a damn useful tool.

So you got nothing.

About as I suspected.

And for the record, even drop pods, sternguard and Coteaz isn't a real answer, if you're playing against an opponent who is even half competent.

If I have Magnus and I look at your side of the table and see that you have 2 drop pods and 20 sternguard that are coming in via deep strike, and I know that you are deploying first, I'm putting Magnus in reserves.

The sternguard trick will only work in 1/12 games, assuming you don't have anything to improve your roll to steal. And even then, if I see that you are stealing on a 4+, I'm still probably putting Magnus in reserves.

A couple of Skyfire Dunecrawlers. Done.

Admittedly, Boyz can't touch him unless they get the charge. If they do get the charge, they need...

7 wounds, 4++ rerolling 1s is 16.8, wounding on 6s is 100.8, hitting on 4s is 201.6... Is about 51 Slugga Choppa Boyz on the charge. That's only 306 points, right?

kambien wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I don't get why no Drop Pods was specified-Drop Pods are a damn useful tool.

As with his other threads , he takes the well know counters to things as says you can't use them "because" and i assume its "because" it guts his entire argument
It is also is for the fact with he would have to not only buy those models but also that he refuses to change his lists in the slightest way. see his other threads where tac can't kill something its op or other such nonsense.

Agreed. Space marines are somehow disallowed drop pods.

Oy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Admittedly, Boyz can't touch him unless they get the charge. If they do get the charge, they need...

7 wounds, 4++ rerolling 1s is 16.8, wounding on 6s is 100.8, hitting on 4s is 201.6... Is about 51 Slugga Choppa Boyz on the charge. That's only 306 points, right?

They only need 5/6 wounds with the traktor kannons...don't forget the st9 hit he takes when he faceplants on anything except a 6.

 Traditio wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I don't get why no Drop Pods was specified-Drop Pods are a damn useful tool.

So you got nothing.

About as I suspected.

And for the record, even drop pods, sternguard and Coteaz isn't a real answer, if you're playing against an opponent who is even half competent.

If I have Magnus and I look at your side of the table and see that you have 2 drop pods and 20 sternguard that are coming in via deep strike, and I know that you are deploying first, I'm putting Magnus in reserves.

The sternguard trick will only work in 1/24 games, assuming you don't have anything to improve your roll to steal. And even then, if I see that you are stealing on a 4+, I'm still probably putting Magnus in reserves.

Okay, so I wipe the rest of your army out since you have 650 points held in reserves, with no reserves manipulation. Scary!

Also, I already figured out two ways to do it with Space Marines. Just because you can't figure out how to beat Magnus with other armies doesn't mean it's impossible. Admittedly, it has a good chance of making CSM one of the "Haves" as far as armies go, and yes, there are armies that are "have-nots". And that sucks for those players, and should be rectified. But Magnus, from what we've seen, certainly ain't broken. He's an expensive model, and good at what he does, but he's far from unbeatable.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
A couple of Skyfire Dunecrawlers. Done.

What's the math on that?

 Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
A couple of Skyfire Dunecrawlers. Done.

What's the math on that?

Out of curiosity, do you actually have an argument that doesn't depend on everyone else answering your questions?

 Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
A couple of Skyfire Dunecrawlers. Done.

What's the math on that?

I don't know, but I suspect if the answer is anything less than "will RFP Magnus in a single shooting phase" you'll probably be unhappy.

Chaos players need a break. Magnus gives them one. It's not how I'd do it - I'd rewrite their Codex so it doesn't suck - but it's something. Let them be happy.

 Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
A couple of Skyfire Dunecrawlers. Done.

What's the math on that?

I dunno because I don't carry my codices everywhere with me. It fires 6 S6 shots ignoring cover, 2 TL S7 shots, and a S7 AP2 shot all at once. That's gonna ground it.

3 shots at S7, 5 at S6. Some are ignores cover, some AP2, some AP4, none of that matters because of his Invuln.

So one Onager firing (at BS 7, since you're popping your +3 BS Doctrina when Magnus comes on) is .88 hits per shot. That's 2.67 S7 hits and 4.44 S6 hits per Onager, for 1.34 wounds from the S7 and 1.48 from the S6, for .56 wounds from S7 and .62 from the S6 past his saves. So that's 1.18 per Onager, or 6 Onagers to kill Magnus.

Edit: Wait, some of that is Twin-Linked. That'll up the damage. Also, some is Interceptor, so, you know. Firing at Magnus on his turn.

What's the endgame for this thread? Convince us all you're right?

How would you kill it with an Imperial Guard list (using only Codex: Astra Militarum)?

A vanilla space marine list that doesn't use drop pods (and all units must be drawn from Codex: Space Marines)?

Gray Knights (and only gray knights)?

Imperial Knights (and only imperial knights)?

Tyrranids (and only tyrranids)?

Adepta Sororitas (all models must be drawn from the codex)?

Orks (all models must be drawn from the codex)

When the unit in question IS NOT IN THE CSM CODEX.

Tradio, what is wrong with you?

I just don't get any of this.

Do you think a 650pt model should be easy to kill? Shouldn't be hyper-competent? Who's going to take a 650pt dude that can die in a single phase? There's a reason nobody bothers with Land Raiders, y'know.

Also Imperial Knights are not even marginally OP. They're tough, scary beasts - but for what they cost I'd expect nothing less. What do you think they should be?

Let's do the math. Note that the ignore cover and AP 2 don't really matter, since he has a 4+ rerollable invuln.

Note that Magnus is T7.

Of those 6 S6 shots:

6/1 X 2/3 = 12/3 will hit.
4/1 X 1/3 = 4/3 will trigger a saving throw.

Of the 2 TL S7 shots:

2/1 X 2/3 = 4/3 will hit initially, whereas 2/3 will trigger a reroll.

Of the rerolls:

2/3 X 2/3 = 4/9 will hit on the reroll.

This means that 16/9 will hit overall.

16/9 X 1/2 = 16/18 or 8/9 will trigger a saving throw.

Of the S7 AP 2 shots:

1/1 X 2/3 = 2/3 hits
2/3 X 1/2 = 1/6 triggering a saving throw.

1/6 + 8/9 + 4/3 = 3/18 + 16/18 + 24/18 = 43/18 attacks triggering a saving throw.

43/18 X 1/2 = 43/36 will either cause a wound or trigger a reroll.
43/36 X 2/3 = 86/108 or 43/54 will cause a wound outright.
43/36 X 1/3 = 43/108 will trigger a reroll.
43/108 X 1/2 = 43/216 will bypass the reroll.

This gives us a total of 43/54 + 43/216 = 172/54 + 43/216 = 215/216

Congrats. All of those shots, and you've ALMOST caused a wound with your dunecrawler.

Magnus might have a 1/3 chance of getting grounded. Good luck.

And again, this relies on the unreasonable assumption that Magnus' invuln hasn't been buffed.

Yes. You caused slightly more than one wound on Magnus with a model that costs a fraction of his points value.

That's the game working AS INTENDED.

Edit: Also, he has a 4+ rerolling ones. Not rerolling everything.

I'm buying it cause I like the model and have a finecrap lord of change at the moment that I'd love to replace with a nice conversion model that I've built myself a bit.

I don't really care about the chaos mortals right now, but hope they get fixed nonetheless.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yes. You caused slightly more than one wound on Magnus with a model that costs a fraction of his points value.

That's the game working AS INTENDED.

Edit: Also, he has a 4+ rerolling ones. Not rerolling everything.

I factored that into the math.

JNAProductions wrote:Yes. You caused slightly more than one wound on Magnus with a model that costs a fraction of his points value.

That's the game working AS INTENDED.

Edit: Also, he has a 4+ rerolling ones. Not rerolling everything.

Did you factor in that an Onager is probably going to be BS 7 on the first turn it shoots Magnus?

 Traditio wrote:
Let's do the math.

*does math*

Dunecrawlers are minor components of an AdMech army; if these little tiddlers are doing more than one wound per turn to my 700pt Daemon Primarch, then I'm not going to take the Daemon Primarch because he is overcosted.

I get that you have a general objection to Magnus-like units in 40k, but that doesn't mean Magnus-like units are OP, or even objectionable. The problem isn't with these units - it lies with the fact that most 40k crunch is godawful 4:59pm-on-a-Friday dialled in garbage. If the rest was brought up to scratch then units like this would seem silly, but otherwise they'd fit right in.

Tradio, why are you not complaining that Tau can't hurt Magnus?

If the chaos player could field 3 Magnus's, I'll bet Tau would table him on turn 1, or certainly by turn 2.

Why are you so worried about this?

 JNAProductions wrote:

JNAProductions wrote:Yes. You caused slightly more than one wound on Magnus with a model that costs a fraction of his points value.

That's the game working AS INTENDED.

Edit: Also, he has a 4+ rerolling ones. Not rerolling everything.

Did you factor in that an Onager is probably going to be BS 7 on the first turn it shoots Magnus?

No. But the result is still going to be somewhere in between 1-2 wounds per vehicle.

How many of those things are you likely to take in a TAC list?

And again, this assumes that his invuln hasn't been buffed. This is not a reasonable assumption.

Okay. How about this? BS 7 Skitarii Vanguard-cornerstone of any TAC list made with Skitarii.

7 wounds, 16.8 through his 4+ rerolling ones, 8.4 because Rad Carbines do double damage on 6s, 50.4 hits needed, 56.7 shots needed. Or in other words, 19 Skitarii Vanguard. Not even 200 points.

Traditio you sound like a doomsayer standing on the street corner shouting at people that the end is nigh. You constantly make these threads with very inflammatory remarks (and in this case downright insulting, really stop shaming people for buying a model they like, they didn't write the rules, GW did) and you're railing against a model that isn't released and we have no confirmation of it's points cost and abilities beyond rumours and hearsay. Every thread you make you end up with almost the entirety of the thread speaking against your opinion and even showing very valid points as to why your logic is flawed (or in some cases you were outright wrong about the rules you spoke out against) and you just make up new and ever morphing reasons to try and justify yourself. At a certain point can't you just ever admit you were wrong, that the majority of posters confronting your theories and fearmongering aren't all wrong. I feel you need to take some time away from the internet and do some self reflection on your relationship with this game and its players (many of whom you insult regularly even though they have truly done you no harm). If 40k is causing you this much stress and anger might I sugest going on hiatus from it? I hear infinity or Malifaux are both very fun games with mostly (if not all) infantry and don't suffer from the scale problems 40k does currently. Perhaps when 8th edition (hopefully) hits next year it may be a more pleasant environment for you to return to. At the very least I agree with you on one thing: 40K does have some balance problems, it'll never be perfect but currently it is very out of sync. I still thoroughly enjoy the game however as I have a great group I play with and we always strive to make each match fun and enjoyable, even the ones I brought a wraithknight to (by the way I have never won any match I brought my wraithknight in, just a funny side note).

To address your original post: The problem is not players buying OP models, it's GW writing imbalanced rules. Don't blame the players for something that GW did. Secondly you don't know the final rules for magnus, no one except a select few do, so how about you wait till after he releases to rail against him if he deserves it then. Lastly regardless of his rules if he costs a lot of points he can be balanced, he's still one model and in larger games you will always outnumber him and his forces, even if you can't kill him reliably you can focus his more vulnerable units and win the game on objectives.

 Traditio wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Two Sternguard and three Drop Pods is not overly specific. It's a great all-rounder 545 points that's capable of handling a wide variety of threats. Coteaz is a bit more niche, agreed, but then again, Magnus is a 650 point model. My local store's agreement is that no single model should ever be more than about a third of your list, so that makes Magnus only available in 1850+ games (yes, technically it should be 1950, but 1850 is a far more common number) in which you really should have the power to take him on.

How would you kill it with an Imperial Guard list (using only Codex: Astra Militarum)?

Conscripts

A vanilla space marine list that doesn't use drop pods (and all units must be drawn from Codex: Space Marines)?

MSU, 5 random powers is not that scary.

Gray Knights (and only gray knights)?

Can't think of anything.

Tyrranids (and only tyrranids)?

Termagaunts

Adepta Sororitas (all models must be drawn from the codex)?

Not sure.

Orks (all models must be drawn from the codex)?

Traktor cannons and a bunch of boys.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And again, that 4++ rerollable is a joke. We all know that's going to be a 3++ rerollable or better in practice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gummyofallbears wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
The fact that there exists a way to (semi)-reliably kill a unit, even on turn 1, doesn't make that unit not-OP.

If I see that my opponent has a wraithknight, I can, 100% of the time, insist that he either replace the wraithknight with something else, or else, refuse the game.

That doesn't make wraithknights not a problem.

If my DW go first, they will make mince meat out of Magnus. They will turn him inside out and dance on his corpse, they haven't done the same to a WK (but to be fair, I have only faced one with DW a few times)

What if you go second?

What if Magnus is placed in reserves?

Then you have a gak load of points in reserve?

If I go second as DW against an army with so many buffs via the Psychic phase I'm screwed anyways, not just because of magnus.

And I would like to thank IF for his awesome post!

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Traditio you sound like a doomsayer standing on the street corner shouting at people that the end is nigh. You constantly make these threads with very inflammatory remarks (and in this case downright insulting, really stop shaming people for buying a model they like, they didn't write the rules, GW did) and you're railing against a model that isn't released and we have no confirmation of it's points cost and abilities beyond rumours and hearsay. Every thread you make you end up with almost the entirety of the thread speaking against your opinion and even showing very valid points as to why your logic is flawed (or in some cases you were outright wrong about the rules you spoke out against) and you just make up new and ever morphing reasons to try and justify yourself. At a certain point can't you just ever admit you were wrong, that the majority of posters confronting your theories and fearmongering aren't all wrong. I feel you need to take some time away from the internet and do some self reflection on your relationship with this game and its players (many of whom you insult regularly even though they have truly done you no harm). If 40k is causing you this much stress and anger might I sugest going on hiatus from it? I hear infinity or Malifaux are both very fun games with mostly (if not all) infantry and don't suffer from the scale problems 40k does currently. Perhaps when 8th edition (hopefully) hits next year it may be a more pleasant environment for you to return to. At the very least I agree with you on one thing: 40K does have some balance problems, it'll never be perfect but currently it is very out of sync. I still thoroughly enjoy the game however as I have a great group I play with and we always strive to make each match fun and enjoyable, even the ones I brought a wraithknight to (by the way I have never won any match I brought my wraithknight in, just a funny side note).

To address your original post: The problem is not players buying OP models, it's GW writing imbalanced rules. Don't blame the players for something that GW did. Secondly you don't know the final rules for magnus, no one except a select few do, so how about you wait till after he releases to rail against him if he deserves it then. Lastly regardless of his rules if he costs a lot of points he can be balanced, he's still one model and in larger games you will always outnumber him and his forces, even if you can't kill him reliably you can focus his more vulnerable units and win the game on objectives.

The players cannot directly be blamed for the fact that GW writes bad rules and has a poorly balanced game.

The players are not responsible for the rules writing.

That said, nobody forced you to buy a wraithknight. Nobody forced you to play eldar.

That decision was on you.

That's the thing about the free market.

You can't pick and choose what does and doesn't get offered for sale.

However, you can indirectly influence marketing and sales decisions based on what purchases you do and do not make.

If Barbara's Best Burgers (a made up restaurant) decides to stop offering burgers and instead decides to offer fish heads, the whole fish heads and nothing but the fish heads, then no amount of customer complaining can force them to start offering burgers again.

But if nobody buys those fish heads, then BBB is forced to make a decision: offer what the customer wants, or else, go out of business.

So no, you aren't responsible for GW's bad rules writing. You are, however, indirectly responsible for, literally, buying into it.

You can't, in one and the same breath, complain about 40k being broken, GW writing bad rules, scale creep, power creep, etc. and then tell me that you think it's a good idea to buy a model like Magnus, a Wraithknight, an Imperial Knight, etc.

Either power creep and scale creep are a problem or not.

If they're a problem, then why are you monetarily encouraging GW to make these problems worse?

And, a forteriori, if you are a CSM player who has been complaining about power creep and scale creep for the last 2 editions, and you intend to buy that Magnus?

Shame.

Shame.

Shame.

What's wrong with fishheads?

If you played Eldar before and had the OP stuff pushed on you from an update, then how would it be the player's fault for having an existing army like that before it? It's not entirely the players fault or entirely GW's fault, it's a mix and it's GW who ultimately have balance control over the game and could have kept it creeping along tamer.

Can we rename the thread Why you should never hit "Show This Post " ?

Dude, he is not overpowered.

He isn't perfect but I fail to see the issue here.

This entire post is four pages of everybody disagreeing with you.

Drop it.

 n0t_u wrote:
If you played Eldar before and had the OP stuff pushed on you from an update, then how would it be the player's fault for having an existing army like that before it? It's not entirely the players fault or entirely GW's fault, it's a mix and it's GW who ultimately have balance control over the game and could have kept it creeping along tamer.

Even then, the responsibility partly and indirectly falls on the consumers.

Your decision to purchase, say, 5th edition eldar indirectly contributed to GW's decision to make future Eldar releases.

Understand, I don't mean by this that 5th edition eldar players are somehow responsible for wraithknights and scatter bikes.

But yes, by making 5th edition eldar purchases, you sent GW a message with your wallet: "MORE ELDAR!!!!"

 Traditio wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
If you played Eldar before and had the OP stuff pushed on you from an update, then how would it be the player's fault for having an existing army like that before it? It's not entirely the players fault or entirely GW's fault, it's a mix and it's GW who ultimately have balance control over the game and could have kept it creeping along tamer.

Even then, the responsibility partly and indirectly falls on the consumers.

Your decision to purchase, say, 5th edition eldar indirectly contributed to Eldar's decision to make future Eldar releases.

Understand, I don't mean by this that 5th edition eldar players are somehow responsible for wraithknights and scatter bikes.

But yes, by making 5th edition eldar purchases, you send GW a message with your wallet: "MORE ELDAR!!!!"

So buy running foot eldar in early 5th/late 4th and getting a bunch of wraithguard later cause I thought they were cool, I encouraged GW to make me shelve a 4-5k army when I later decided to get a pre-gmc wraithknight to centerpiece it?

Pretty sure you're overreacting quite a lot with this thread.

n0t_u wrote:So buy running foot eldar in early 5th/late 4th and getting a bunch of wraithguard later cause I thought they were cool, I encouraged GW to make me shelve a 4-5k army when I later decided to get a pre-gmc wraithknight to centerpiece it?

Pretty sure you're overreacting quite a lot with this thread.

The circumstances are much clearer here. GW is basically advertising Magnus as: "HEY! LOOK AT HOW OP THIS MODEL IS! TOTALLY AWESOME, RIGHT?"

They're advertising outright that they are selling a bad product.

It's on the consumer either to encourage it or not.

Except it's not. It has less than half the warp charges of 56 less points of Tzeentch daemons, it's killable by less than 200 points of Skitarii in one turn, it's mediocre, point for point, in CC...

 Traditio wrote:

n0t_u wrote:So buy running foot eldar in early 5th/late 4th and getting a bunch of wraithguard later cause I thought they were cool, I encouraged GW to make me shelve a 4-5k army when I later decided to get a pre-gmc wraithknight to centerpiece it?

Pretty sure you're overreacting quite a lot with this thread.

The circumstances are much clearer here. GW is basically advertising Magnus as: "HEY! LOOK AT HOW OP THIS MODEL IS! TOTALLY AWESOME, RIGHT?"

They're advertising outright that they are selling a bad product.

It's on the consumer either to encourage it or not.

Boycotts have been a traditionally kneejerk overreaction to GW stuff that have never actually worked anyway. Don't worry your grav shots still mess up a crapton more of the game instead.

 Traditio wrote:

n0t_u wrote:So buy running foot eldar in early 5th/late 4th and getting a bunch of wraithguard later cause I thought they were cool, I encouraged GW to make me shelve a 4-5k army when I later decided to get a pre-gmc wraithknight to centerpiece it?

Pretty sure you're overreacting quite a lot with this thread.

The circumstances are much clearer here. GW is basically advertising Magnus as: "HEY! LOOK AT HOW OP THIS MODEL IS! TOTALLY AWESOME, RIGHT?"

They're advertising outright that they are selling a bad product.

It's on the consumer either to encourage it or not.

The website brags about how awesome every unit is. Just please stop.

Traditio even you have to know that that's not even a remotely possible comparison to make. I'm not even going to insult this threads intelligence by trying to explain to you why a burger joint swapping to fish heads is a pointless example.

What's rule number one when buying an army? It's to buy what appeals to you. Knowing nothing about how to build an Eldar force I bought rangers, some jetbikes a vyper and a farseer. I loved the models, there was no other reason behind my purchase. I bought the codex later. I read the fluff first and loved the story of the Eldar, who they are, what they do, the side irony of their fall. Everything about the army appealed to me, no single unit seemed silly or weird (like the way I feel about the chaos heldrake). I painstakingly painted it, converted models and based everything because I wanted to make it look as good on the table as I imagined it in my mind. At no point did I purchase any of my models and think "I'm sure glad this model is OP so I can dominate my opponents on the tabletop". The thought didn't even cross my mind once. I bought them cause I loved them. I bought a WK long after it came out, I knew the rules for it were good but I didn't care, I wasn't ready to build and paint one yet. When I did buy it though I didn't buy it to win games, I bought it because I legitimately feel it is one of the most beautiful models GW has ever created. It's a brilliant centrepiece even on display.

The crux of this story is that I got my army because I loved the lore, the models and I found it fun to play on the tabletop because it had such flavour. I had no control over the rules my force was given when GW swapped my codex to the new 7th editon dex (I started my eldar in 6th), I already owned the models and I wasn't going to stop playing them just because GW let a couple OP units through in the new dex. What did I do? I refused to field scatbikes in my lists and if I did put special weapons on my bikes it was using the 1 in 3 can be upgraded rule just like the 6th edition dex had. I never use warp spider spam and I only own one WK and I only bring it into games of 1850 or more. I self governed myself to not abuse rules that I didn't agree with that would give me, what I felt, were unfair advantages. I still get to play the army I love and none of the local players hate me for playing Eldar despite bringing the occasional WK to a match.

It NOT my responsibility to stop playing/collecting an army I love just because GW writes some bad rules. I will NOT take responsibility for GW writing bad rules and no one else should either, not the Tau riptide/stormsurge users, not the vanilla marines free ride users and not the SW/DA superfriends users. It's not unreasonable to ask GW to write better, more balanced rules but it is absolutely unreasonable to ask people to stop buying/playing the army they love under ANY circumstances.

Traditio in this matter you are without a doubt, unequivocally, indisputably wrong.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

n0t_u wrote:So buy running foot eldar in early 5th/late 4th and getting a bunch of wraithguard later cause I thought they were cool, I encouraged GW to make me shelve a 4-5k army when I later decided to get a pre-gmc wraithknight to centerpiece it?

Pretty sure you're overreacting quite a lot with this thread.

The circumstances are much clearer here. GW is basically advertising Magnus as: "HEY! LOOK AT HOW OP THIS MODEL IS! TOTALLY AWESOME, RIGHT?"

They're advertising outright that they are selling a bad product.

It's on the consumer either to encourage it or not.

The website brags about how awesome every unit is. Just please stop.

An example to support this.

Smaller and physically weaker than their cousins the Orruks, Grots make up for their diminutive stature with pure nastiness. An individual Grot makes for an unimposing warrior. However, when gathered into Gitmobs, they can drag down even the largest of creatures. As befits their wicked nature, Grots prefer to pick on enemies they outnumber or who are at a disadvantage, making them especially fond of ambushes.

 Traditio wrote:
Even then, the responsibility partly and indirectly falls on the consumers.

Then by that standard you are just as guilty. You buy 40k stuff, you post about 40k, you contribute to the idea that the current direction is worth continuing. GW doesn't see "well, this guy deliberately avoided Eldar and only bought tactical marines", they just see that 40k is continuing to sell. Either stop buying, playing, and discussing 40k or drop this ridiculous attempt to blame the customers for GW's actions.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Except it's not. It has less than half the warp charges of 56 less points of Tzeentch daemons, it's killable by less than 200 points of Skitarii in one turn, it's mediocre, point for point, in CC...

This happens in literally every thread that anyone has ever made about about any 40k model being OP.

Model x has A, B and C problems which make it OP.

A vocal number of dissenters: but it won't literally ensure that you win 100 percent of your games, table your opponent on turn 1 or literally be unable to be removed from play. It's not able to dominate every single phase of the game and have every USR from the BRB plus 5 more.

Seriously. Go back and read threads from back when 7th ed. Eldar codex was about to be released.

People defended wraithknights. People defended scatter bikes. People defended wraithguard.

People defended storm surges. People defended riptides.

They still do.

People probably defended Heldrakes when they first dropped.

People defended IG back in 5th edition.

You get the point.

The simple fact is, I can tell you right now what's going to happen:

Magnus is regularly going to be played in such a way as to give him a 2++ to 3++ rerollable invuln.

If you are playing all kinds of OP cheese yourself, or else, if you play with a codex and an army which just so happens to be good against things like Magnus, you'll likely have decent games.

If you play a non-optimized to semi-optimized TAC list with most armies, Magnus is going to be essentially impossible to kill, unless you just so happened to bring that 1 special snowflake unit, piece of wargear or combination thereof. Magnus is going to be similar to the flyrant, except he's going to be more durable and have potentially equal to better fire power.

Of course, he'll be more expensive. But then, he'll be stronger, more durable, etc.

So yes, if I run an optimized, tailored cheese list, Magnus has a decent chance at going down.

If I run leeman russes, a whole army of leeman russes and nothing but the leeman russes, then I'm not going to have a fun game. At all.

And if I run assault marines, devastators and tactical marines in a CAD, well, so much for killing Magnus.

If that comes to pass, I will be thrilled. Orks will finally be able to break out in that meta, as Magnus is so easy to kill.

That's what happens when you run Tactical Marines, a unit that was good in maybe 1 edition.

And once again Traditio also cherry picks which posts he wants to answer...

It was nice having a break from his nonsensical threads, I guess he woke up from hibernation.

If that comes to pass, I will be thrilled. Orks will finally be able to break out in that meta, as Magnus is so easy to kill.

I like how he hasn't addressed this either. Orks are oddly enough one of the factions best suited to taking him out with traktor kannons followed by mass loota or tankbusta support. Does this make Orks OP too by comparison since we can take out Magnus?

Is it a boycott if I wasn't going to buy him anyways and didn't remember what you were talking about?

Also, isn't Magnus the Red a Primarch? Are there Primarchs in WH40k now?

Grimskul wrote:I like how he hasn't addressed this either. Orks are oddly enough one of the factions best suited to taking him out with traktor kannons followed by mass loota or tankbusta support. Does this make Orks OP too by comparison since we can take out Magnus?

No.

I mean, I don't really have any comment on this. If orks just so happen to be particularly good against Magnus, then that's interesting, I suppose, but it doesn't really affect my points.

If tactical marines with bolters had a special rule: "wound wraithknights on 2s, have a range of 72 inches against wraithknights, have AP 2 against wraithknights, do not require line of sight against wraithknights, ignore invulns against wraithknights, have the instant death special rule against wraithknights, always are able to rapid fire against wraithknights, regardless of range, and ignore cover against wraithknights," that would make tactical marines really, really good against wraithknights.

Wraithknights would still be OP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:
Is it a boycott if I wasn't going to buy him anyways and didn't remember what you were talking about?

Also, isn't Magnus the Red a Primarch? Are there Primarchs in WH40k now?

He's a fething daemon primarch.

 Traditio wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:
Is it a boycott if I wasn't going to buy him anyways and didn't remember what you were talking about?

Also, isn't Magnus the Red a Primarch? Are there Primarchs in WH40k now?

He's a fething daemon primarch.

So yes, he's a Primarch.

Also, my level of ignorance only sounds weird until you realize I don't care enough about Space Marine lore to even learn the names of all the Legions or Primarchs.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:
Is it a boycott if I wasn't going to buy him anyways and didn't remember what you were talking about?

Also, isn't Magnus the Red a Primarch? Are there Primarchs in WH40k now?

He's a fething daemon primarch.

So yes, he's a Primarch.

Also, my level of ignorance only sounds weird until you realize I don't care enough about Space Marine lore to even learn the names of all the Legions or Primarchs.

4 of them are alive as daemon primarchs but in lore have been too lazy doing whatever on their own planets in the eye of terror.

Seems everyone forgot about the Cullexus.

 Traditio wrote:

Grimskul wrote:I like how he hasn't addressed this either. Orks are oddly enough one of the factions best suited to taking him out with traktor kannons followed by mass loota or tankbusta support. Does this make Orks OP too by comparison since we can take out Magnus?

No.

I mean, I don't really have any comment on this. If orks just so happen to be particularly good against Magnus, then that's interesting, I suppose, but it doesn't really affect my points.

If tactical marines with bolters had a special rule: "wound wraithknights on 2s, have a range of 72 inches against wraithknights, have AP 2 against wraithknights, do not require line of sight against wraithknights, ignore invulns against wraithknights, have the instant death special rule against wraithknights, always are able to rapid fire against wraithknights, regardless of range, and ignore cover against wraithknights," that would make tactical marines really, really good against wraithknights.

Wraithknights would still be OP.

Exactly. If there is only 1 unit that can harm him, that would not be enough. But Orks have 4 units that will outright kill him, or whittle him down. Fething Orks! Tau will erase him (note you haven't even acknowledge that Tau is a faction in this discussion) Necrons will ignore him Space marines will Drop Pod him Eldar will do any of 10 things to him Dark Eldar will poison him Knights will stomp him and Wulfen will eat him alive. Grey knights will Nova/shriek him, Deamons will out-dice him and chaos will....Magnus him.

Not sure yet what sisters will do...they might have to wait until January, and then they will probaby out-pray him.

Every army has a counter. It is not one unit that hurts him, but dozens.

That's why the people have risen up against you (haven't you noticed? Or are you oblivious to that, too?)

HE IS A GOOD UNIT FOR HIS POINTS.

HE IS NOT OP, like a Wraithknight, Riptide, Canoptek Harvest or Scatbikes. There is a clear difference.

BTW, what army do you play? You seem to be having so much trouble with him, maybe we can help you.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Grimskul wrote:I like how he hasn't addressed this either. Orks are oddly enough one of the factions best suited to taking him out with traktor kannons followed by mass loota or tankbusta support. Does this make Orks OP too by comparison since we can take out Magnus?

No.

I mean, I don't really have any comment on this. If orks just so happen to be particularly good against Magnus, then that's interesting, I suppose, but it doesn't really affect my points.

If tactical marines with bolters had a special rule: "wound wraithknights on 2s, have a range of 72 inches against wraithknights, have AP 2 against wraithknights, do not require line of sight against wraithknights, ignore invulns against wraithknights, have the instant death special rule against wraithknights, always are able to rapid fire against wraithknights, regardless of range, and ignore cover against wraithknights," that would make tactical marines really, really good against wraithknights.

Wraithknights would still be OP.

Exactly. If there is only 1 unit that can harm him, that would not be enough. But Orks have 4 units that will outright kill him, or whittle him down. Fething Orks! Tau will erase him (note you haven't even acknowledge that Tau is a faction in this discussion) Necrons will ignore him Space marines will Drop Pod him Eldar will do any of 10 things to him Dark Eldar will poison him Knights will stomp him and Wulfen will eat him alive. Grey knights will Nova/shriek him, Deamons will out-dice him and chaos will....Magnus him.

Not sure yet what sisters will do...they might have to wait until January, and then they will probaby out-pray him.

Every army has a counter. It is not one unit that hurts him, but dozens.

That's why the people have risen up against you (haven't you noticed? Or are you oblivious to that, too?)

HE IS A GOOD UNIT FOR HIS POINTS.

HE IS NOT OP, like a Wraithknight, Riptide, Canoptek Harvest or Scatbikes. There is a clear difference.

BTW, what army do you play? You seem to be having so much trouble with him, maybe we can help you.

He plays vanilla marines, but refuses to use anything people advise him to try out, instead wanting to shift the entire meta on his preconceived and frankly antiquated notions of what marine armies should look like (which is basically a 5th ed list with tacs and devastators). Notice how he deliberately omits drop pods out of the equation in the previous part of the thread for no good reasons as to why "marines are screwed" even though even sternguard would have an easy time against magnus with hellfire rounds once he's grounded (again not that hard with if you're using your own flyers/AA).

Really folks, this is the person whose last thread was that flying creatures shouldn't have armor better than 4+. This thing shows up and he knowingly and willingly moves the goalposts.

 Stormonu wrote:
Really folks, this is the person whose last thread was that flying creatures shouldn't have armor better than 4+. This thing shows up and he knowingly and willingly moves the goalposts.

Magnus only has a 4+. GW listened!

This guy complains a lot. I'm playing with dark eldar. Whenever i face against Tau it's a freaking nightmare (i may need to do the coven list but i don't know that i want to). Marine, eldar, tau and other top tier problems are very nearly like First World Problems.

I can only hope dark eldar get attention. Maybe.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Except it's not. It has less than half the warp charges of 56 less points of Tzeentch daemons, it's killable by less than 200 points of Skitarii in one turn, it's mediocre, point for point, in CC...

I am so sick of these posts. As stupid as a boycott is, and it is stupid, the idea that Magnus WON'T be crazy powerful off of what we've seen so far is asinine. If you don't think he's gamebreaking that's fine, if you have good reasoning for why he's not broken, such as 'The army around him will be easy to kill because it's only 1200 points' or 'You have to run Tsons to unlock him so not all strats will work with him' you'd have a reasonable argument, and probably be right. If you're just not good enough at theoryhammer or 40k in general to see the ridiculous combo potential Magnus has, especially because it's already been confirmed that the Tsons detachment will up his Invul anyway, please don't spout useless 'in a vacuum' stats as if that's representative of real 40k.

I remember once when Tau players (on dakka) complained that stormsurge would suck. A guy at my store runs 2 with 2 ghostkeels, a riptide and stealth suits. Almost nobody plays him now because he's such a power gamer with em.

Anyway give it time. Don't shout OP or UP until the rules are on hand and some months of game playing.

I'm still wondering why GW made this model.
It looks terrible and has some weird rules.

Really not that big of a deal.. looking at him from a competitive standpoint.. Unless he gets Invis off im gonna be laughing as I 1 shot him out of the sky every time.. Sure he's scary in combat and by himself.. but you have an entire army to deal with him.. He's a huge investment and he SHOULD slaughter anybody he touches.. the point being IF he can touch them.. Any competent general can outplay a single model and completely deny him any chance to attack.

From a casual game standpoint? Your opponent better tell you he's bringing this guy beforehand. I would refuse to play a casual game if my opponent tried to spring this guy on me unannounced.

 Dioxalyn wrote:
Really not that big of a deal.. looking at him from a competitive standpoint..

Let me translate what you just said:

"Really not that big of a deal...when you look at him from the perspective of all of the OP, undercosted bullgak that you could cheese out your lists with."

. Any competent general can outplay a single model and completely deny him any chance to attack.

He's an FMC. FMCs can move.

From a casual game standpoint? Your opponent better tell you he's bringing this guy beforehand. I would refuse to play a casual game if my opponent tried to spring this guy on me unannounced.

Should there really be a divide between competitive and casual play?

Or should the game just be balanced so that you don't have to have a 30 minute discussion and establish a fething safe word just so that you can play an enjoyable game?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Even then, the responsibility partly and indirectly falls on the consumers.

Then by that standard you are just as guilty. You buy 40k stuff, you post about 40k, you contribute to the idea that the current direction is worth continuing. GW doesn't see "well, this guy deliberately avoided Eldar and only bought tactical marines", they just see that 40k is continuing to sell. Either stop buying, playing, and discussing 40k or drop this ridiculous attempt to blame the customers for GW's actions.

So we have a restaurant, let's say:

Barbara's Best Burgers.

They sell burgers and fish heads.

Nobody buys fish heads.

People buy tons of burgers.

You think that they're going to keep selling fish heads for long?

 Traditio wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Even then, the responsibility partly and indirectly falls on the consumers.

Then by that standard you are just as guilty. You buy 40k stuff, you post about 40k, you contribute to the idea that the current direction is worth continuing. GW doesn't see "well, this guy deliberately avoided Eldar and only bought tactical marines", they just see that 40k is continuing to sell. Either stop buying, playing, and discussing 40k or drop this ridiculous attempt to blame the customers for GW's actions.

So we have a restaurant, let's say:

Barbara's Best Burgers.

They sell burgers and fish heads.

Nobody buys fish heads.

People buy tons of burgers.

You think that they're going to keep selling fish heads for long?

Except that for warhammer plenty of people are buying the fish heads. Nothing that GW puts out goes completely unsold

Well, all we know right now is the statline for the carriage (t7, w7, rerollable 2++, flying ability - pretty much unkillable). So the main question how hard he will hit and will it be possible to ignor, or at least tarpit him for 6 turns. Also important to know, will he be able to cast this 2++ himself, or via heralds ally/csm psyker. In second case there will be chance to focus them first.

So I don't know if anyone already made this point, but...

He's a Daemon Primarch.

You shouldn't be able to take him out with tactical squads.

It's about time some of this stuff in the game started living up to the lore.

Hopefully he'll be a prohibitive amount of points, and if he isn't, hopefully ITC, and other tourneys will ban it.

Owning a model like that if the points aren't a reflection of it's power level will be a test of character. If (when?) I end up owning that, I wouldn't bring it to a pickup game unless I had another list without it, and gave my opponent the option to play whichever list he likes.

 Weboflies wrote:
So I don't know if anyone already made this point, but...

He's a Daemon Primarch.

You shouldn't be able to take him out with tactical squads.

Do a Daemon Primarch and tactical squads belong in the same game?

A daemon primarch and chaos cultists?

What about chaos cultists and warlord titans?

Let the fluff be what it may, but you are only illustrating my point about scale creep.

A daemon primarch and guardsmen do not belong in the same game.

I don't care what the bloody points costs are.

That's why everyone should boycott things like Magnus the Red, Wraithknights Stormsurges, etc.

At this point, it's too late to send a message to GW about wraithknights, etc.

But Magnus hasn't come out yet.

Just say no.

For the good of the game, just. say. no.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

CrownAxe wrote:You think that they're going to keep selling fish heads for long?

Except that for warhammer plenty of people are buying the fish heads. Nothing that GW puts out goes completely unsold

If he was a fgmc I'd understand the kneejerk a bit more and maybe join in, as he is it's like a daemon prince+. Will be annoying to deal with, but not a super game ender.

 n0t_u wrote:
If he was a fgmc I'd understand the kneejerk a bit more and maybe join in, as he is it's like a daemon prince+. Will be annoying to deal with, but not a super game ender.

The fact that he isn't a FGMC or have a 3+ or better armor save doesn't make him worse.

The fact that he doesn't have a 3+ or better armor save just makes him more resilent against grav, and the fact that he's not a FGMC just means that GW can get away with giving him a lower points cost.

Oddly enough, these things don't make him less of a problem. They make him more of a problem.

 Traditio wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
If he was a fgmc I'd understand the kneejerk a bit more and maybe join in, as he is it's like a daemon prince+. Will be annoying to deal with, but not a super game ender.

The fact that he isn't a FGMC or have a 3+ or better armor save doesn't make him worse.

The fact that he doesn't have a 3+ or better armor save just makes him more resilent against grav, and the fact that he's not a FGMC just means that GW can get away with giving him a lower points cost.

Oddly enough, these things don't make him less of a problem. They make him more of a problem.

...Are you serious?

ZebioLizard2 wrote:...Are you serious?

Completely serious. Think about it.

If he had a 2+ armor, that means that grav wounds him on 2s and he saves on a 4++ rerollable or better.

The fact that he has a 4+ armor means that grav wounds him on 4s and he saves on a 4++ rerollable or better.

And yes, the fact that he's an FMC and not a FGMC could mean the difference between giving him a points cost that allows more people to play with him at a lower points cost...or not.

 Traditio wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
If he was a fgmc I'd understand the kneejerk a bit more and maybe join in, as he is it's like a daemon prince+. Will be annoying to deal with, but not a super game ender.

The fact that he isn't a FGMC or have a 3+ or better armor save doesn't make him worse.

The fact that he doesn't have a 3+ or better armor save just makes him more resilent against grav, and the fact that he's not a FGMC just means that GW can get away with giving him a lower points cost.

Oddly enough, these things don't make him less of a problem. They make him more of a problem.

No, they really don't.
As a fgmc he'd be a nightmare, as a fmc he's an annoyance to all but the lowest armies which need help for other reasons to begin with. I'd be more worried to see a chaos knight most of the time.


Also if it's the tzeench daemon rerolls then it's only on 1s. Granted grimoire can boost it to a 2++ rerollable, but that's hardly a new strategy with tzeentch daemons and I'm sure people have picked that apart by now enough to be able to figure this one out shortly after his release.

Mwha ha ha ha sorry but nope.
I am not going to boycot something just because you don't like it. I not you, some anonymous guy on the other side of the world decide what toys I play with ; )

 n0t_u wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
If he was a fgmc I'd understand the kneejerk a bit more and maybe join in, as he is it's like a daemon prince+. Will be annoying to deal with, but not a super game ender.

The fact that he isn't a FGMC or have a 3+ or better armor save doesn't make him worse.

The fact that he doesn't have a 3+ or better armor save just makes him more resilent against grav, and the fact that he's not a FGMC just means that GW can get away with giving him a lower points cost.

Oddly enough, these things don't make him less of a problem. They make him more of a problem.

No, they really don't.
As a fgmc he'd be a nightmare, as a fmc he's an annoyance to all but the lowest armies which need help for other reasons to begin with. I'd be more worried to see a chaos knight most of the time.

Neither chaos knights nor a fething daemon primarch belongs in regular, non-apocalypse games.

#BoycottAllOfIt

 Traditio wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
If he was a fgmc I'd understand the kneejerk a bit more and maybe join in, as he is it's like a daemon prince+. Will be annoying to deal with, but not a super game ender.

The fact that he isn't a FGMC or have a 3+ or better armor save doesn't make him worse.

The fact that he doesn't have a 3+ or better armor save just makes him more resilent against grav, and the fact that he's not a FGMC just means that GW can get away with giving him a lower points cost.

Oddly enough, these things don't make him less of a problem. They make him more of a problem.

No, they really don't.
As a fgmc he'd be a nightmare, as a fmc he's an annoyance to all but the lowest armies which need help for other reasons to begin with. I'd be more worried to see a chaos knight most of the time.

Neither chaos knights nor a fething daemon primarch belongs in regular, non-apocalypse games.

#BoycottAllOfIt

Was I saying they did? I was saying there was already far more worrying things in the game at the moment than what caused this little overreaction which seems to boil down to "omg my grav weapons can't kill it in one turn". Which honestly is the problem of the lazy grav weapons to begin with, they act as a crutch.

Also its not up to any space marine player to complain about over the top rules of chaos space marine supplements.

 Traditio wrote:
Neither chaos knights nor a fething daemon primarch belongs in regular, non-apocalypse games.

#BoycottAllOfIt

In your opinion.

GW appears to disagree.
GW are making the models and rules.
You are attempting to persuade a small portion of the GW community to follow your option, with seemingly lacklustre results.

I think GW's direction might be the more powerful one here.

Guys, Traditio is a well established troll that ignores every comment that destroys his poorly articulated arguments. Ignore him and move on. Unlike some other threads, practically no-one agrees with him here so it's clearly not worth pursuing.

And for the record, using all of the leaks we have so far, Magnus looks pretty cool but I wouldn't say he's over powered. Even if he's flying around, is 650 points worth it just for witchfire spam?

So I'm seeing a lot of discussion on Magnus' save.

To be clear his 4++ comes from his "Crown" so it is not limited to 3++ the via MoT.

Next the Primas Power seems to be legit except it is +1 to invul saves.

There appears to be a formation that adds a +1 to your invul save if you have a "blessing" on any thousand Sons unit.

This means he can probably get a 2++ fairly easily and already rerolls 1's.

Assuming all the above is true it will take 252 caused wounds to kill Magnus.

To put that into perspective if you have 74 lascannons shooting at BS 5 it would take you 5 turns to kill him.

Just fruit for thought.

I'd say he's a bit overpriced. At least compared to an underpriced Wraith knight.

Then again, I do wonder what kind of Psychic Powers are available? If gaze of Magnus is one Str D. Maybe there's another Str D on the Tzeentch table to have. And that's 2 shots of Sunny Ds hitting on 2s on a mobile platform that always has line of sight to everything.

It's be a balance trying to maximize what other 3 powers to use after them.

His points cost doesn't seem that low. Horus is 500 points in 30k. Primarchs are supposed to be tough to deal with.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
So I'm seeing a lot of discussion on Magnus' save.

To be clear his 4++ comes from his "Crown" so it is not limited to 3++ the via MoT.

Next the Primas Power seems to be legit except it is +1 to invul saves.

There appears to be a formation that adds a +1 to your invul save if you have a "blessing" on any thousand Sons unit.

This means he can probably get a 2++ fairly easily and already rerolls 1's.

Assuming all the above is true it will take 252 caused wounds to kill Magnus.

To put that into perspective if you have 74 lascannons shooting at BS 5 it would take you 5 turns to kill him.

Just fruit for thought.

Thats true, but we should wait and see will he be able to recoup his point price. Ofc if he will smash with d-str in melee and cast some insane amount of dmg he will be not "just annoing".

 Weboflies wrote:
So I don't know if anyone already made this point, but...

He's a Daemon Primarch.

You shouldn't be able to take him out with tactical squads.

It's about time some of this stuff in the game started living up to the lore.

Hopefully he'll be a prohibitive amount of points, and if he isn't, hopefully ITC, and other tourneys will ban it.

Owning a model like that if the points aren't a reflection of it's power level will be a test of character. If (when?) I end up owning that, I wouldn't bring it to a pickup game unless I had another list without it, and gave my opponent the option to play whichever list he likes.

3rd edition daemon princes had T4 and a 5++ save. They could be boltered down easily. It kinda sucks but it is also kinda cool that tactical marines could genuinely stand up to something horrible. Flattening the power curve isn't always so bad. Plus the mismatch between the historical background and the actual reality is nice on its own. I think that part of the point of 40k should be that events have been twisted and exaggerated or outright fabricated over the thousands and thousands of years.

This thread made me pre-order so hard.

*Puts on her tinfoil hat* What if Traditio is a GW plant sent here to trick us all into buying anything BUT space marines? Think about it...he pushes how OP everything else is compared to his generic marine mens every time something new comes out.

On topic though, I really feel like Magnus is going to cost a ton of points and easily be taken down by an Imperial Knight or two anyhow. I'm not afraid of it at all. They've already said he's the size of one which usually means a pretty hefty cost points-wise.

 SicSemperTyrannis wrote:
This thread made me pre-order so hard.

Tempted to buy 2 now myself.

 wuestenfux wrote:
I'm still wondering why GW made this model.
It looks terrible and has some weird rules.

Is the opposite of what is a model I would buy, but many people loved it.

My curiosity lies n the TS themselves and if they re-did the rules, and are viable without formations. I have 3 old metal sorcerers, I could do something with the new releases.

Another productive thread from OP.

I'm sure this will fit nicely in your collection of locked threads.

 Blacksails wrote:
Another productive thread from OP.

I'm sure this will fit nicely in your collection of locked threads.

Traditio is a bit extremist but we players have a guilt for all the crap GW churns out. They went full giant models because people jumped at them.

Is difficult because people want different thing from this game, so many would not care for an overpowered or sucky Magnus because they would play once per year and mainly paint. Cannot blame them!

So even if traditio is radical, is analysis of the consequences of us buying this kind of stuff kind of rings true.

My only fear is GW stupidity. You see that if you boycott something that does not work, like happened with WHFB, they do not react fixing it. Is really frustrated, deal with GW is like dealing with an autistic child.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:
So I don't know if anyone already made this point, but...

He's a Daemon Primarch.

You shouldn't be able to take him out with tactical squads.

It's about time some of this stuff in the game started living up to the lore.

Hopefully he'll be a prohibitive amount of points, and if he isn't, hopefully ITC, and other tourneys will ban it.

Owning a model like that if the points aren't a reflection of it's power level will be a test of character. If (when?) I end up owning that, I wouldn't bring it to a pickup game unless I had another list without it, and gave my opponent the option to play whichever list he likes.

3rd edition daemon princes had T4 and a 5++ save. They could be boltered down easily. It kinda sucks but it is also kinda cool that tactical marines could genuinely stand up to something horrible. Flattening the power curve isn't always so bad. Plus the mismatch between the historical background and the actual reality is nice on its own. I think that part of the point of 40k should be that events have been twisted and exaggerated or outright fabricated over the thousands and thousands of years.

Took me a moment to realize what you were talking about, the problem with such is that the idea of a Daemon Prince has changed since that time. Though I prefer 3.5's idea that its the amount of gifts that bolsters one up to the rank.

Traditio, I find it really entertaining how GW gave you the boost you wanted for flakk missiles and skyfire autocannons but you realise the very specific thing you asked for (4+ armour FMCs) is really just a nerf on grav.

Nothing personal, but it is a great example of 'be careful what you wish for'. Sooo Tzeentchian .

Could someone provide a link to the boycott the Wraithknight/Riptide/Stormsurge/all superheavies/Tesseract Vault etc?

No takers? Thought not.

If people want to use the bigger and more powerful units in their games let them. You don't HAVE to play against Magnus, Riptide Wing etc., if you don't want to. Some people however do.

The fish heads clearly are being purchased by some even though they attract a significant mark up to compensate for lower sales.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Could someone provide a link to the boycott the Wraithknight/Riptide/Stormsurge/all superheavies/Tesseract Vault etc?

No takers? Thought not.

If people want to use the bigger and more powerful units in their games let them. You don't HAVE to play against Magnus, Riptide Wing etc., if you don't want to. Some people however do.

The fish heads clearly are being purchased by some even though they attract a significant mark up to compensate for lower sales.

Before clicking, guess who started it:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/691903.page

(not calling for a boycott explicitly, but implicitly)

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
So I'm seeing a lot of discussion on Magnus' save.

To be clear his 4++ comes from his "Crown" so it is not limited to 3++ the via MoT.

Next the Primas Power seems to be legit except it is +1 to invul saves.

There appears to be a formation that adds a +1 to your invul save if you have a "blessing" on any thousand Sons unit.

This means he can probably get a 2++ fairly easily and already rerolls 1's.

Assuming all the above is true it will take 252 caused wounds to kill Magnus.

To put that into perspective if you have 74 lascannons shooting at BS 5 it would take you 5 turns to kill him.

Just fruit for thought.

I'm pretty sure it's any thousand sons unit with a blessing gets +1 invulnerable save, not if any unit has a blessing they all get +1.

If that's what you meant, wording!

 Wolfblade wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Could someone provide a link to the boycott the Wraithknight/Riptide/Stormsurge/all superheavies/Tesseract Vault etc?

No takers? Thought not.

If people want to use the bigger and more powerful units in their games let them. You don't HAVE to play against Magnus, Riptide Wing etc., if you don't want to. Some people however do.

The fish heads clearly are being purchased by some even though they attract a significant mark up to compensate for lower sales.

Before clicking, guess who started it:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/691903.page

(not calling for a boycott explicitly, but implicitly)

Sorry but that is a legitimate question, albeit for the best of GW and of people that like the models, the best option would be have reasonable rules (along less rerolls, deathstars and so on). But still, the game went bonkers and one of the reasons is how big models were handled.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Could someone provide a link to the boycott the Wraithknight/Riptide/Stormsurge/all superheavies/Tesseract Vault etc?

No takers? Thought not.

If people want to use the bigger and more powerful units in their games let them. You don't HAVE to play against Magnus, Riptide Wing etc., if you don't want to. Some people however do.

The fish heads clearly are being purchased by some even though they attract a significant mark up to compensate for lower sales.

Before clicking, guess who started it:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/691903.page

(not calling for a boycott explicitly, but implicitly)

Sorry but that is a legitimate question, albeit for the best of GW and of people that like the models, the best option would be have reasonable rules (along less rerolls, deathstars and so on). But still, the game went bonkers and one of the reasons is how big models were handled.

If you read the thread you'd that ALL superheavies are OP including things like the malcador. As for balancing, that's obvious, but this is 40k, a game not exactly known for having high quality rules, and its FAQs consistently requiring FAQs. The game was broken long before SHVs, LoW and GMCs

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
If people want to use the bigger and more powerful units in their games let them. You don't HAVE to play against Magnus, Riptide Wing etc., if you don't want to. Some people however do.

You might however not have many left to actually play the game against if you don't want epic-scaled models in 40k. People tend to want to actually use the $160 single models they buy.


This is entirely aside from any issues with designing a scale that allows for both individual grots and individual titans.

I wanna play this guy in 1,000 point matches and always run magnus

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I wanna play this guy in 1,000 point matches and always run magnus

You Sir/Madam get a +1.

Even better, use 999pts of Aetos'Rau'Keres (haven't got the book in front of me so apologies for the spelling) from IA13 and suckle upon the tears. Or refuse to play, one of the two.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I wanna play this guy in 1,000 point matches and always run magnus

You Sir/Madam get a +1.

Even better, use 999pts of Aetos'Rau'Keres (haven't got the book in front of me so apologies for the spelling) from IA13 and suckle upon the tears. Or refuse to play, one of the two.

You cant bring daemon lords under 4 times their price points limit, 4000 for Aetaos

Wait for sm getting skyfiring D-dreadknight manned by three centurions with shield that has -1 against D hits

Why you shouldn't boycott Magnus: It'd annoy Traditio.

A thought occurs.

Maybe if you don't like something GW does, you should post it here for us to discuss, then also go send them an e-mail about it so the people who actually make the game also know how you feel.

Even if they ignore it, it's at least more likely to get something changed, right?

I am sure plenty a person has disregarded the limits on deamon lords like Cheetos'Tau'Peres.

Interesting question, with Aeot (I give up trying to spell it) and his rules if Magnus were the closest daemon, not sure how deamon primarch works with this, bird face and Magnus would potentially have to scrap it out. Hmmmmm. Who would win and does that put Magnus in perspective regarding OP or otherwise?

Sonic Keyboard wrote:
Wait for sm getting skyfiring D-dreadknight manned by three centurions with shield that has -1 against D hits

Magnus in the baby-carrier harness of an Imperial Knight-sized Daemon Engine. Coming to an 8th Edition near you soon.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
I am sure plenty a person has disregarded the limits on deamon lords like Cheetos'Tau'Peres.

I think you're making that name up, but after hearing about Inquisitor Obi-Wan Sherlock Cleuseau, I'm not so sure anymore.

@Pouncey - purely made up best guess at phonetic spelling.

I don't even play Chaos, but I might pick up Magnus anyway.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
@Pouncey - purely made up best guess at phonetic spelling.

Close 'nuff then. : D

Oh look, another one of these threads.

You are right traditio, it is impossible to kill.
That is once you have applied your own "restrictions" on what people can use against it.
Ie: The best units from each army.


Recently you complained about MC's having 3+ saves.
They gave this one a 4+ as you suggested and you complain about that now.

However, its also T7, so not even as tough as a WK.
Its vulnerable to being shot by nearly every weapon in 40k, including poison.

Yes, it is strong, but for its cost it better bloody be.
For 100 more you can throw in a warhound that will do alot more damage from better range with 2 turbo lasers.



I think your still stuck a few editions back with your army and you expect everyone to revert back, rather than moving forward yourself
Yes the game has changed and yes, there is power creep, but there always has been.

You also dont seem to realise that casual AND competative gaming exist.
By all means refuse to play it in a casual pickup game, but in a tournament?
Good luck with that.

You dont go to a tournament expecting cute and fluffy lists.




I also like that chaos (tzeentch) finally get a useable LOW choice atlast.



So yes he is strong, but still limited to what he can do and mainly by his points cost.

 War Kitten wrote:
I don't even play Chaos, but I might pick up Magnus anyway.

May as well - it'd certainly make no difference in the long run

I personally want Tzaangors though. They look fantastic



Mmm, something about a model boycott?

 Jackal wrote:
Oh look, another one of these threads..

It ain't Dakka without a Traditio thread bemoaning that any army apart from his is overpowered, broken and needs to be nerfed into the ground.

The fact he's turned this approach to Chaos Space Marines - widely regarded as being the bottom of the scrap pile in terms of their base power level and needing sooooo many books and supplements to even be on base level to SM is some amazing mental gymnastics.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
I am sure plenty a person has disregarded the limits on deamon lords like Cheetos'Tau'Peres...

...So the discussion has now become "cheating is overpowered"? "I choose to disregard my Warboss' Wounds total. He's magic and can't die. Orks OP, pls nerf." Really?

I was referring to the snack "Cheetos", crisps as we call them in Blightey. Not cheating.

Nice try, but fail nonetheless.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
I was referring to the snack "Cheetos", crisps as we call them in Blightey. Not cheating.

Nice try, but fail nonetheless.

Umm... Aren't Cheetos those orange styrofoamy things that stain people's fingers?

I thought crisps in Britain were those thinly-sliced deep-fried potatoes that we call chips in Canada.

 Pouncey wrote:

Umm... Aren't Cheetos those orange styrofoamy things that stain people's fingers?

I thought crisps in Britain were those thinly-sliced deep-fried potatoes that we call chips in Canada.

Technically they're cheese puffs, but nobody has time for that technicality

Crisps are the thinly sliced potatoes you get in a snack packet, chips are the things on your plate when you order a steak or cook a roast dinner on Sunday night

A space marine player crying about Magnus being OP, lol. I guess you think all those free rhinos/transports in the Demi Company are cool though. We totally shouldn't ban Demi Company because that's your codex. And crying about grav not working? I choked up a little there.

Seriously, the Chaos Marines have been consistently voted as the worse codex for a few years now. Then GW shows some love which might make them half way competitve. Or if nothing else, they gave us some really awesome models.

If anything should be boycotted, it the ridiculous Space Marine Formations. That crap breaks the game, sweeps tournaments, and is broken as all hell. It's so broken that even adding Magnus to the mix actually dials back the power creep...that's how broken Demi Company is.

@Pouncey (yet again) - nah, bit of a catch all generic term over here.

But yes, they are orangey styrofoam things, like Wottsits, which get awful orange colouring everywhere.

Slightly off topic so I will be quiet.

Back to why Magnus should not be bought if you have passion for the game and want balance...

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
I was referring to the snack "Cheetos", crisps as we call them in Blightey. Not cheating.

Nice try, but fail nonetheless.

I was referring to you trying to make a statement about the cheesiness of Aetaos'rau'keres (I'm slightly dismayed that I know how to spell it off the top of my head) based on ignoring a sentence in his rules, not about your specific mocking nickname.

@Anomander - No offence was intended and I wasn't referring to Big Bird being cheesy. You may be reading into that one a bit too much mate.

I just find it funny someone starts a thread about an OP sub-1000pts LoW when you have [insert name] running around dropping pie plates like Xmas.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Why you shouldn't boycott Magnus: It'd annoy Traditio.

My thoughts exactly.

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Umm... Aren't Cheetos those orange styrofoamy things that stain people's fingers?

I thought crisps in Britain were those thinly-sliced deep-fried potatoes that we call chips in Canada.

Technically they're cheese puffs, but nobody has time for that technicality

Crisps are the thinly sliced potatoes you get in a snack packet, chips are the things on your plate when you order a steak or cook a roast dinner on Sunday night

Yeah, in Canada we call crisps, potato chips, and we call chips, french fries.

Because different words mean different things in different countries.

Here is a pertinent question, I hope. So, if this trend continues, and we have a SM player on the soapbox about daemon primarchs, will we see this same thread in relation to Dorn, the Lion, Rowboat?

Why would you put chips with a roast dinner?

What is wrong with the world?

 welshhoppo wrote:
Why would you put chips with a roast dinner?

What is wrong with the world?

Wedges are better, but sometimes you gotta compromise

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Here is a pertinent question, I hope. So, if this trend continues, and we have a SM player on the soapbox about daemon primarchs, will we see this same thread in relation to Dorn, the Lion, Rowboat?

Well, I mean, about 5 years ago Primarchs were thought to be too powerful to ever include in a non-Apocalypse game of 40k. Estimated points values for them were in the multiple thousands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Why would you put chips with a roast dinner?

What is wrong with the world?

Well, the world doesn't see a problem with selling soft drinks even though they are incredibly unhealthy for humans and offer no benefits over drinking just the water that went into them without all the extra stuff.

So, a lot.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
@Anomander - No offence was intended and I wasn't referring to Big Bird being cheesy. You may be reading into that one a bit too much mate.

I just find it funny someone starts a thread about an OP sub-1000pts LoW when you have [insert name] running around dropping pie plates like Xmas.

Entirely possible.

The truth of the LoW situation is that most of them aren't actually that powerful, but folks with a skewed understanding of the game seem to think that the LoW label or the Superheavy/Gargantuan types is inherently OP and should be banned outright. (I suspect the fact that the four superheavy plastic kits GW has put out happen to contain between them four of the seven most broken superheavies in all of 40k (and only seven of the thirty-odd normal/playable ones) is part of the problem.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Here is a pertinent question, I hope. So, if this trend continues, and we have a SM player on the soapbox about daemon primarchs, will we see this same thread in relation to Dorn, the Lion, Rowboat?

Well, I mean, about 5 years ago Primarchs were thought to be too powerful to ever include in a non-Apocalypse game of 40k. Estimated points values for them were in the multiple thousands...

'Estimated points values' for the Primarchs were also based on silly peoples' 10s-across-the-board rerollable-2++ homemade statlines. If they'd paid attention to the bits in Chaos fluff talking about the relationship between Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons they'd have ended up with statlines and rules aiming for where a Daemon Prince special character would sit, at somewhere around the 450pt mark.

And lo and behold, guess what Forge World gave us?

(GW deciding to toss out all sense for the sake of making Magnus 2-2.5x as big as he ought to be is another reason the core team should pack up shop and put the FW writers in charge.)

 Bach wrote:
A space marine player crying about Magnus being OP, lol. I guess you think all those free rhinos/transports in the Demi Company are cool though. We totally shouldn't ban Demi Company because that's your codex. And crying about grav not working? I choked up a little there.

Seriously, the Chaos Marines have been consistently voted as the worse codex for a few years now. Then GW shows some love which might make them half way competitve. Or if nothing else, they gave us some really awesome models.

If anything should be boycotted, it the ridiculous Space Marine Formations. That crap breaks the game, sweeps tournaments, and is broken as all hell. It's so broken that even adding Magnus to the mix actually dials back the power creep...that's how broken Demi Company is.

You'll enjoy this
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/680586.page

I know I'm enjoying it.

 Lou_Cypher wrote:
I'd say he's a bit overpriced. At least compared to an underpriced Wraith knight.

Then again, I do wonder what kind of Psychic Powers are available? If gaze of Magnus is one Str D. Maybe there's another Str D on the Tzeentch table to have. And that's 2 shots of Sunny Ds hitting on 2s on a mobile platform that always has line of sight to everything.

It's be a balance trying to maximize what other 3 powers to use after them.

Gaze of Magnus is beam D spell, I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
So I'm seeing a lot of discussion on Magnus' save.

To be clear his 4++ comes from his "Crown" so it is not limited to 3++ the via MoT.

Next the Primas Power seems to be legit except it is +1 to invul saves.

There appears to be a formation that adds a +1 to your invul save if you have a "blessing" on any thousand Sons unit.

This means he can probably get a 2++ fairly easily and already rerolls 1's.

Assuming all the above is true it will take 252 caused wounds to kill Magnus.

To put that into perspective if you have 74 lascannons shooting at BS 5 it would take you 5 turns to kill him.

Just fruit for thought.

I'm pretty sure it's any thousand sons unit with a blessing gets +1 invulnerable save, not if any unit has a blessing they all get +1.

If that's what you meant, wording!

What you said


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Silver144 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
So I'm seeing a lot of discussion on Magnus' save.

To be clear his 4++ comes from his "Crown" so it is not limited to 3++ the via MoT.

Next the Primas Power seems to be legit except it is +1 to invul saves.

There appears to be a formation that adds a +1 to your invul save if you have a "blessing" on any thousand Sons unit.

This means he can probably get a 2++ fairly easily and already rerolls 1's.

Assuming all the above is true it will take 252 caused wounds to kill Magnus.

To put that into perspective if you have 74 lascannons shooting at BS 5 it would take you 5 turns to kill him.

Just fruit for thought.

Thats true, but we should wait and see will he be able to recoup his point price. Ofc if he will smash with d-str in melee and cast some insane amount of dmg he will be not "just annoing".

I think he will, since gaze of magnus lets cleave through many units at the same time, and his ability to fly will allow him to position himself well.

 General Annoyance wrote:
What if I like the model?

I love the taunar titan model. Do you think anyone would let me put it on the board?

 Orock wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:
What if I like the model?

I love the taunar titan model. Do you think anyone would let me put it on the board?

Put it in a 3k-pt-+ game and warn me ahead of time and I'd be completely fine with it, so long as you accepted a bit of tailoring to make sure the game wasn't a one-sided stomp.

 Orock wrote:
I love the taunar titan model. Do you think anyone would let me put it on the board?

Yes?

Even if people are reluctant to play against certain units, the point of my statement was that I want to buy the model because I like it; for me, at least, the model always comes before the rules attached to it, even more so now since I don't play 40k.

I would be more than happy to play againt a Tuna (yes, yes I don't know how to spell it) as I would be interested to see what it can do. Even if I get tabled turn 1.

People seem to forget that outside tournies it is all just about rolling dice and shuffling plastic i.e. fun.

I just ordered 3 Magnus so I can use all three heads. I will name the Cyclopes one Traditio.

 kronk wrote:
I just ordered 3 Magnus so I can use all three heads. I will name the Cyclopes one Traditio.

Do it. Buy magnets for them too, just for the sake of it.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Why would you put chips with a roast dinner?

What is wrong with the world?

Chips on a Sunday roast I can just about cope with. Those fried slices of parsnip that look like chips until you bite into them? Whoever started that gak needs to get in the sea.

 BBAP wrote:
Chips on a Sunday roast I can just about cope with. Those fried slices of parsnip that look like chips until you bite into them? Whoever started that gak needs to get in the sea.

Parsnip and sweet potato cuts are the best when you mix them with chips.

Fight me

 Pouncey wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Umm... Aren't Cheetos those orange styrofoamy things that stain people's fingers?

I thought crisps in Britain were those thinly-sliced deep-fried potatoes that we call chips in Canada.

Technically they're cheese puffs, but nobody has time for that technicality

Crisps are the thinly sliced potatoes you get in a snack packet, chips are the things on your plate when you order a steak or cook a roast dinner on Sunday night

Yeah, in Canada we call crisps, potato chips, and we call chips, french fries.

Because different words mean different things in different countries.

 BBAP wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Why would you put chips with a roast dinner?

What is wrong with the world?

Chips on a Sunday roast I can just about cope with. Those fried slices of parsnip that look like chips until you bite into them? Whoever started that gak needs to get in the sea.

Wish I could exalt this more than once.

 General Annoyance wrote:

 BBAP wrote:
Chips on a Sunday roast I can just about cope with. Those fried slices of parsnip that look like chips until you bite into them? Whoever started that gak needs to get in the sea.

Parsnip and sweet potato cuts are the best when you mix them with chips.

Fight me

Sweet potato is fine because I can tell by looking it's not a proper chip and dispose of it accordingly. Parsnips are chamaeleonic impostors.

Spam Sisters of Silence squads.
If any are within 12" of hi he is at -3 LD. Get a number of them within 6" and throw as many psychic grenades as possible, you will need about eighteen.
18 grenades at BS4 = 12 its. That is twelve rolls on the Perils table, and at least two of those should come up a '1'. Magnus then takes his LD check at -3. LD 7 means he passes 50% of them time. So, with eighteen Sisters of Silence units you can kill Magnus without ever firing a shot.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Spam Sisters of Silence squads.
If any are within 12" of hi he is at -3 LD. Get a number of them within 6" and throw as many psychic grenades as possible, you will need about eighteen.
18 grenades at BS4 = 12 its. That is twelve rolls on the Perils table, and at least two of those should come up a '1'. Magnus then takes his LD check at -3. LD 7 means he passes 50% of them time. So, with eighteen Sisters of Silence units you can kill Magnus without ever firing a shot.

Magnus is immune to perils.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Spam Sisters of Silence squads.
If any are within 12" of hi he is at -3 LD. Get a number of them within 6" and throw as many psychic grenades as possible, you will need about eighteen.
18 grenades at BS4 = 12 its. That is twelve rolls on the Perils table, and at least two of those should come up a '1'. Magnus then takes his LD check at -3. LD 7 means he passes 50% of them time. So, with eighteen Sisters of Silence units you can kill Magnus without ever firing a shot.

According to rules leaks, Magnus ignore perils

I'm buying Magnus. I love the model, and I like the gravitas of the Daemon Primarchs. I have no issue with it.

But I do have a problem. My problem is that it appears that in order to use him, I'd have to buy a US $75 two book set!! That ain't happening. That's my personal boycott.

I just spent some time flipping through the WD (and it's a nice one, thanks GW for making WD a somewhat reasonable purchase again.) The Legions book is US 35$, softcover. A very appealing purchase, so I ordered that through my local game store, as well as Magnus. Wrath of Magnus is two books, one campaign book, and one rule book, and is more than twice the cost of the Legions book, for potentially less of the content game-wise. I just can't imagine it's a worthwhile purchase for me.

Maybe GW is trying to sell these books in the same vein as the Forge World campaign books? (which I also don't buy). I can sort of understand it, but it's not for me.

 DeffDred wrote:
Seems everyone forgot about the Cullexus.

Right? Or the Sisters of Silence.

From what I can figure with Magnus in-game, I think for a lot of armies the play will be to ignore Magnus himself, and kill the rest of the army. As you drop the other Sorcerors in the Tsons force, Magnus is going to lose Warp Charge, and won't be able to buff so much. Then you'll have a better time taking him out (if you actually need to). 600+ points is a lot of points for a single model.


Also: Has anyone else noticed that the Forge World Berserker conversion kit is no longer available? I wonder if it's a sign for new plastics from GW.

 BBAP wrote:
Sweet potato is fine because I can tell by looking it's not a proper chip and dispose of it accordingly. Parsnips are chamaeleonic impostors.

Guess I'm in the minority for roast vegetables with Sunday dinner then. Exalted nonetheless

In the rumor thread about him it stated he is 650 pts if anyone is wondering

Who need a big red guy, i want sneke fulgrim model and noise renagade knights for the D strength mega wubs

 Lamoura wrote:
Who need a big red guy, i want sneke fulgrim model and noise renagade knights for the D strength mega wubs

Bah, renegade knights! We have our own Slaaneshi Knightly order of the House Devine with their Hell-Knights!

 Insectum7 wrote:
Right? Or the Sisters of Silence.

Did they start selling them by themselves yet, or will I have to pay 20 dollars per model because you get 5 of them in a box set that costs 100 dollars?

 JimOnMars wrote:
Not sure yet what sisters will do...they might have to wait until January

1: Meltaspam probably. It's pretty much how we deal with anything bigger than a tactical marine at this point. That, exorcists, or allied units.
2: Yeah no, we're not getting anything new in Jan. I expect, at MOST, a rehash of what we already have, and probably weaker than what we used to have still, just like our current list.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Right? Or the Sisters of Silence.

Did they start selling them by themselves yet, or will I have to pay 20 dollars per model because you get 5 of them in a box set that costs 100 dollars?

I've found they go for around $25 usd on ebay. Before shipping of course.

 Melissia wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Not sure yet what sisters will do...they might have to wait until January

1: Meltaspam probably.
2: Yeah no, we're not getting anything new in Jan.

2. Probably GW will go under before plastic Sisters... don't come out ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mmzero252 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Right? Or the Sisters of Silence.

Did they start selling them by themselves yet, or will I have to pay 20 dollars per model because you get 5 of them in a box set that costs 100 dollars?

I've found they go for around $25 usd on ebay. Before shipping of course.

So I can get them cheaper by just buying the box sets and avoiding eBay?

 Pouncey wrote:
So I can get them cheaper by just buying the box sets and avoiding eBay?

I meant for 5 of them o.o

 Pouncey wrote:
2. Probably GW will go under before plastic Sisters... don't come out ever.

GW won't release plastic Sisters until GW hires/promotes someone who cares about Sisters and gives them the leeway needed to completely relaunch the army.

So yeah probably.

 mmzero252 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
So I can get them cheaper by just buying the box sets and avoiding eBay?

I meant for 5 of them o.o

Doesn't matter.

I had a look at the picture on GW's site. They don't look like Sisters of Battle. Not even interested if they were free.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
2. Probably GW will go under before plastic Sisters... don't come out ever.

GW won't release plastic Sisters until GW hires/promotes someone who cares about Sisters and gives them the leeway needed to completely relaunch the army.

So yeah probably.

On the plus side, I don't ever need to buy any new models for my army because I have enough already and that will never change.

 Pouncey wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
So I can get them cheaper by just buying the box sets and avoiding eBay?

I meant for 5 of them o.o

Doesn't matter.

I had a look at the picture on GW's site. They don't look like Sisters of Battle. Not even interested.

Of course they don't look like Sisters of Battle. They're Sisters of Silence. They're two entirely different things. But honestly the Silence models look really nice and have some rather powerful rules to back them up.

 Melissia wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Not sure yet what sisters will do...they might have to wait until January

1: Meltaspam probably. It's pretty much how we deal with anything bigger than a tactical marine at this point. That, exorcists, or allied units.
2: Yeah no, we're not getting anything new in Jan. I expect, at MOST, a rehash of what we already have, and probably weaker than what we used to have still, just like our current list.

Super-rending? FotL-style double-tap attacks? Special flamer ammo. Storm bolters stock on everyone. Flamestorm cannons on Immolators?

It turns out when the thematic weapon design space is "the holy trinity of flamers, melta, and bolters" there's not a lot to do. Hopefully some sort of blessed bolter ammo will make an appearance, at least.

 mmzero252 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
So I can get them cheaper by just buying the box sets and avoiding eBay?

I meant for 5 of them o.o

Doesn't matter.

I had a look at the picture on GW's site. They don't look like Sisters of Battle. Not even interested.

Of course they don't look like Sisters of Battle. They're Sisters of Silence. They're two entirely different things. But honestly the Silence models look really nice and have some rather powerful rules to back them up.

Yeah, but I want to play Sisters of Battle, not Sisters of Silence.

Dark Angels models look really nice and they have some powerful rules, but if I really like playing Space Wolves I wouldn't start playing Dark Angels just because they're also superhuman dudes in power armor with bolters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Not sure yet what sisters will do...they might have to wait until January

1: Meltaspam probably. It's pretty much how we deal with anything bigger than a tactical marine at this point. That, exorcists, or allied units.
2: Yeah no, we're not getting anything new in Jan. I expect, at MOST, a rehash of what we already have, and probably weaker than what we used to have still, just like our current list.

Super-rending? FotL-style double-tap attacks? Special flamer ammo. Storm bolters stock on everyone. Flamestorm cannons on Immolators?

It turns out when the thematic weapon design space is "the holy trinity of flamers, melta, and bolters" there's not a lot to do. Hopefully some sort of blessed bolter ammo will make an appearance, at least.

We also have a rocket launcher and a variety of melee weapons, and grenades you know.

 Pouncey wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Not sure yet what sisters will do...they might have to wait until January

1: Meltaspam probably. It's pretty much how we deal with anything bigger than a tactical marine at this point. That, exorcists, or allied units.
2: Yeah no, we're not getting anything new in Jan. I expect, at MOST, a rehash of what we already have, and probably weaker than what we used to have still, just like our current list.

Super-rending? FotL-style double-tap attacks? Special flamer ammo. Storm bolters stock on everyone. Flamestorm cannons on Immolators?

It turns out when the thematic weapon design space is "the holy trinity of flamers, melta, and bolters" there's not a lot to do. Hopefully some sort of blessed bolter ammo will make an appearance, at least.

We also have a rocket launcher and a variety of melee weapons, and grenades you know.

Indeed we do. Any time I try and write in more tanks, nicer planes, and more ways to use said melee weapons I get accused of trying to turn Sisters into Marines, which ends up making the whole problem doubly annoying since Sisters are in playstyle basically T3 Salamanders already (only better at being Salamanders than Salamanders since they can have heavy flamers in their Troops squads). It may have made me a little shy of trying to expand their portfolio (Space Marines do sort of do everything).

I do like the FotL idea, though (squad fires bolters twice while standing still, but can't shoot next turn if they do so). I'd come up with those in about fifteen seconds as a spattering of random suggestions but that one might actually work.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Not sure yet what sisters will do...they might have to wait until January

1: Meltaspam probably. It's pretty much how we deal with anything bigger than a tactical marine at this point. That, exorcists, or allied units.
2: Yeah no, we're not getting anything new in Jan. I expect, at MOST, a rehash of what we already have, and probably weaker than what we used to have still, just like our current list.

Super-rending? FotL-style double-tap attacks? Special flamer ammo. Storm bolters stock on everyone. Flamestorm cannons on Immolators?

It turns out when the thematic weapon design space is "the holy trinity of flamers, melta, and bolters" there's not a lot to do. Hopefully some sort of blessed bolter ammo will make an appearance, at least.

We also have a rocket launcher and a variety of melee weapons, and grenades you know.

Indeed we do. Any time I try and write in more tanks, nicer planes, and more ways to use said melee weapons I get accused of trying to turn Sisters into Marines, which ends up making the whole problem doubly annoying since Sisters are in playstyle basically T3 Salamanders already (only better at being Salamanders than Salamanders since they can have heavy flamers in their Troops squads). It may have made me a little shy of trying to expand their portfolio (Space Marines do sort of do everything).

I do like the FotL idea, though (squad fires bolters twice while standing still, but can't shoot next turn if they do so). I'd come up with those in about fifteen seconds as a spattering of random suggestions but that one might actually work.

Why can't the Holy Trinity thing work like Dark Angels plasma weapons fixation? Where Sisters love Bolters, Meltas and Flamers and use them wherever possible, but are practical enough to use other weapons when they'd clearly be more effective? That'd probably be what'd happen, and already does happen given the Exorcist and melee weapons. Just because they really love those three weapon types hasn't stopped them from using other stuff too.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Super-rending? FotL-style double-tap attacks? Special flamer ammo. Storm bolters stock on everyone. Flamestorm cannons on Immolators?

It turns out when the thematic weapon design space is "the holy trinity of flamers, melta, and bolters" there's not a lot to do. Hopefully some sort of blessed bolter ammo will make an appearance, at least.

Oh no, I know there's possibilities.

I just have no faith in GW to deliver on them. They'll just give us a lame rehash of what we already ahve and no plastics.

Forgot the promise of progress and science . There is no hope. There is only stagnation amidst the laughter of thirsting gods.

Just wait for Traitor Legions to blow through before you Sisters players start counting your chickens.

If it's amazing and makes Chaos players happy then that bodes very well for Sisters.

If it's a steaming pile of Traitor's Hate gak then it may be time to start shoving chickens back into eggs.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Just wait for Traitor Legions to blow through before you Sisters players start counting your chickens.

If it's amazing and makes Chaos players happy then that bodes very well for Sisters.

If it's a steaming pile of Traitor's Hate gak then it may be time to start shoving chickens back into eggs.

Us chaos players really just need the options. You know how boring CAD Plague Marines is? Or doing Termicide?

I love how this thread just went from a stupid rant by everyone's favorite troll to a discussion about what to call french fries and potato chips, and now a discussion about the possible release of new Sisters stuff. Only on Dakka...

My response to the OP: No one's gonna boycott Magnus, he's just too cool of a model. I'm probably not getting him, but that's because I don't intend to start a Thousand Sons army. Honestly, your complaining about every unit that bothers you in 40k is just ridiculous, so why not put a (dread)sock in it? The crazy stuff is here to stay, at least in competitive play, so GET OVER IT!

My response to everyone else: I think there is something in the Dakka Guidelines about "don't feed the trolls" so why waste time with this guy? Oh wait, looks like I did it too. My bad.

I dunno, I might get Magnus just to run a Magnus +3 Daemon Princes list.

Seems like us ork players have one option here:

LOOTED MAGNUS.


Chaos get one good unit and everyone loses their minds lol. At least they have a model in lore thats intimidating, whereas the scariest ork in lore is ghazgkull the overcosted powerfist. Heck, I wish I had a new model that could reliably kill anything. Maybe I should just start allying tau and eldar with my orks. Monstrous Critter master race apparently is the only way to play.

Hopefully in 8th edition they'll remember orks exist and make them into a subfaction for space marines or something.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

(GW deciding to toss out all sense for the sake of making Magnus 2-2.5x as big as he ought to be is another reason the core team should pack up shop and put the FW writers in charge.)

IDK that he's bigger than he ought to be. Daemonhood can confer some pretty major size changes and since Magnus was both a primarch (one of the bigger ones, too) and the most rewarded of Tzeentch's underlings you can argue basically any size for him. Plus his own size-changing abilities and that he's now a creature of arbitrary physical dimensions anyway.

As far as game scale and playability goes he may well be much too big but as far as the background goes he's in the clear.

I wasn't going to buy him, but now I will because I want to spite Traditio

Id get magnus. If I could afford him...

Or, if it was in rational scale for a 1ksons army, in 650 points its simply not.

In order to get your +1 invul save from your core, you need to spend AT LEAST 3 units of scarabs at 250 each, 3 units of rubrics at 150 each and 3 sorcerers at 60 each.
That's 1380 points, before you get into ANY kind of upgrades (like mastery levels, guns, discs, squad members, etc.
Magnus on top of that is 650 points IIRC?
So you hit 1930 points. before even looking at auxiliary choices.

This is NOT a regular game.
Sure, you can CAD him, or take non-maxed formations-but then you get subpar 1ksons. they really need to max formations to be good.

And after you CAD him, you still need a daemon CAD, because you are going to need them horrors and heralds to pump up your warp pool. Magnus might be the best USER of warp dice in the game, but when it comes to generation, he's one of the worst.
5 dice at 650 points is 1 dice per 130 points. that's horrible.
Other units can get as good as 35 and less points per dice (cheapest i think is the new brimes, at 30. level 3 heralds compete with 31.66 and farseers has 33.33)

As as Magnus alone can and should be eating about 25-30 dice every turn to maximize his potential, that means you need to generate around 20 from your horrors. and said horrors do nothing BUT zone control and provide warp dice.
So you need to invest about as much as magnus himself in the battery. Magnus "actually" costs about 1300.

TLR
Magnus is not even GOOD on his own, let alone OP.
He gets strong when properly supported by psychic batteries, but paying for both him and a decent battery leaves you with little else.

You're forgetting that Magnus harnesses the warp on 2+ and ignores perils. He is getting a lot more mileage out of those 5 dice than any other unit.

I ordered Magnus at a 25% discount.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

(GW deciding to toss out all sense for the sake of making Magnus 2-2.5x as big as he ought to be is another reason the core team should pack up shop and put the FW writers in charge.)

IDK that he's bigger than he ought to be. Daemonhood can confer some pretty major size changes and since Magnus was both a primarch (one of the bigger ones, too) and the most rewarded of Tzeentch's underlings you can argue basically any size for him. Plus his own size-changing abilities and that he's now a creature of arbitrary physical dimensions anyway.

As far as game scale and playability goes he may well be much too big but as far as the background goes he's in the clear.

You know what I'd do if I was a demon that could change my size at will?

Make myself large enough that my enemies' weapons were useless against me.

Like, so big that when they shove their whole power sword into me, it doesn't even pierce my armor because my armor is thicker than their sword is long.

Then I'd just step on them.