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Magnus with a 2++?
You know the power than increased by 2 the invulnerable was a lie?

Also looks like the extra +1 on the invulnerable by the formation cant be better than a 3++?

Where you fin he is 2++???????????

also why the hell put 650 into a single model than a tau or a vainilla can kill on turn one if you can put all those points into sorcerrers of level 3 to have 83782374834 more warp dices and more powers from more disciplines?

If you throw a Grimoire on him you need Daemons. If you want to be sure you get off the Grimoire, you'll need Kairos. Unless I've missed something special, that is.

Just to get Magnus you need to take a considerable amount of points in (still) overcosted CSM/1k sons.

Sure he'll kill a fair amount of units, but just kill everything else the Chaos player brings, Magnus can't solo an entire army.

Isengard wrote:
For me he should be almost impossible to kill. He is literally one of the most powerful entities in the galaxy, a deamon primarch, not just a primarch but one pumped up with the raw power of a chaos god. His stats are stronger than those of a 30k primarch, which is right. Besides a god he is one of the very most powerful entities still active. However, in terms of game balance, he needs to be very highly costed. Comparing him to a 30k primarch I would guess he will come in at around 1000 points.

So, uh...

Why are you willing to accept him in the TTG then, if he's that overpowered? Should we be expecting starship orbital bombardments too where you spend like a thousand points and then get a bunch of OP attacks representing an overhead starship just going all-out?

 Pouncey wrote:

Isengard wrote:
For me he should be almost impossible to kill. He is literally one of the most powerful entities in the galaxy, a deamon primarch, not just a primarch but one pumped up with the raw power of a chaos god. His stats are stronger than those of a 30k primarch, which is right. Besides a god he is one of the very most powerful entities still active. However, in terms of game balance, he needs to be very highly costed. Comparing him to a 30k primarch I would guess he will come in at around 1000 points.

So, uh...

Why are you willing to accept him in the TTG then, if he's that overpowered? Should we be expecting starship orbital bombardments too where you spend like a thousand points and then get a bunch of OP attacks representing an overhead starship just going all-out?

We already had those, they used to be in Witch-Hunters and DaemonHunters.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Isengard wrote:
For me he should be almost impossible to kill. He is literally one of the most powerful entities in the galaxy, a deamon primarch, not just a primarch but one pumped up with the raw power of a chaos god. His stats are stronger than those of a 30k primarch, which is right. Besides a god he is one of the very most powerful entities still active. However, in terms of game balance, he needs to be very highly costed. Comparing him to a 30k primarch I would guess he will come in at around 1000 points.

So, uh...

Why are you willing to accept him in the TTG then, if he's that overpowered? Should we be expecting starship orbital bombardments too where you spend like a thousand points and then get a bunch of OP attacks representing an overhead starship just going all-out?

We already had those, they used to be in Witch-Hunters and DaemonHunters.

Space Marine Chapter Masters have one too.

Also, you may notice that those orbital attacks are basically as strong as a Basilisk and are limited. The Witch Hunters one had to pick a terrain piece to target for the whole game. The Chapter Master is a once-per-game thing.

Eldar can already get D-weapons coming out their ears. Last tournament I won I ran a Lynx, a Warp Hunter and a Wraithknight. Could've added Wraithguards with no scatter DS, too.

Space Marines can shoot at stuff without needing to see it, ignoring cover, throw terrain across the board and get turn 1 deathstars charging you.

Invisible 2++ or 2+ re-rollable jink and 4+++ death stars are a thing.

I won't say anything for sure until we see him in action, but Magnus doesn't seem that overwhelming to me.

GrafWattenburg wrote:
Eldar can already get D-weapons coming out their ears. Last tournament I won I ran a Lynx, a Warp Hunter and a Wraithknight. Could've added Wraithguards with no scatter DS, too.

Space Marines can shoot at stuff without needing to see it, ignoring cover, throw terrain across the board and get turn 1 deathstars charging you.

Invisible 2++ or 2+ re-rollable jink and 4+++ death stars are a thing.

I won't say anything for sure until we see him in action, but Magnus doesn't seem that overwhelming to me.

:: sighs :: I remember when Land Raiders were overpowered.

 Pouncey wrote:

GrafWattenburg wrote:
Eldar can already get D-weapons coming out their ears. Last tournament I won I ran a Lynx, a Warp Hunter and a Wraithknight. Could've added Wraithguards with no scatter DS, too.

Space Marines can shoot at stuff without needing to see it, ignoring cover, throw terrain across the board and get turn 1 deathstars charging you.

Invisible 2++ or 2+ re-rollable jink and 4+++ death stars are a thing.

I won't say anything for sure until we see him in action, but Magnus doesn't seem that overwhelming to me.

:: sighs :: I remember when Land Raiders were overpowered.

Um when was that?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

GrafWattenburg wrote:
Eldar can already get D-weapons coming out their ears. Last tournament I won I ran a Lynx, a Warp Hunter and a Wraithknight. Could've added Wraithguards with no scatter DS, too.

Space Marines can shoot at stuff without needing to see it, ignoring cover, throw terrain across the board and get turn 1 deathstars charging you.

Invisible 2++ or 2+ re-rollable jink and 4+++ death stars are a thing.

I won't say anything for sure until we see him in action, but Magnus doesn't seem that overwhelming to me.

:: sighs :: I remember when Land Raiders were overpowered.

Um when was that?

Like, 13-14 years ago, in 3rd edition.

I do think Thousand sons are going to give a lot of people a good run for their money because they have lots of AP3 across the board and psychic powers can easily fill the anti-vehicle holes in the list through the use of Heretech powers.

However, I don't think Magnus is going to be part of those armies simply because Thousand sons already are going to run a thinspread army because of it's elite nature so I'd say people who want a stronger amy are generally going to avoid magnus in favor of more units to hold objectives.

I could be entirely wrong however. We'll see what people cook up.

 Pouncey wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

GrafWattenburg wrote:
Eldar can already get D-weapons coming out their ears. Last tournament I won I ran a Lynx, a Warp Hunter and a Wraithknight. Could've added Wraithguards with no scatter DS, too.

Space Marines can shoot at stuff without needing to see it, ignoring cover, throw terrain across the board and get turn 1 deathstars charging you.

Invisible 2++ or 2+ re-rollable jink and 4+++ death stars are a thing.

I won't say anything for sure until we see him in action, but Magnus doesn't seem that overwhelming to me.

:: sighs :: I remember when Land Raiders were overpowered.

Um when was that?

Like, 13-14 years ago, in 3rd edition.

Seeing as Terminators weren't good back then I'm not sure how their delivery system with 3 guns that's 250 points would've been overpowered.

How does he compare to 30k Primarchs ? I'm unaaware of their porfiles.
He is really more powerful as he should be ?

We haven't gotten 30k Magnus's rules yet, but the Average Primarch Statline is roughly WS7 BS6 S6 T7 W6 I6 A5 Ld 10 With a 2+/4++.
All Primarchs in 30k also have the following special rules: Fleet, Fearless, Fear, IWND, Eternal Warior, Adamantium Will & Independent Character as well as some form of Bulky, plus their own unique rules to make them different. T
hey also typically have AP2 weapons of some kind and range from 350 (A special version of Corax representing him loosing most of his gear during the Istvaan V conflict) to 500 (Horus himself), with most of them being around the 400-450 mark.

So really, compared to the jump between Chaos Lord to Daemon Prince, it could be argued that Magnus should have an even more powerful statline (if only slightly more powerful), however given his scholarly attributes and his patron, not being WS10 makes sense.


Overall though, it's pretty fitting.

Thanks, so I'm happy.
It's a great release to my mind, but I care little of the game balance or the tournaments.
If/when someone play with Magnus The Red himself, I think it shouldn't be just a "normal" game, but special game, planned for him.

So did the guy who was mad about not being able to throw grav at everything give up at his argument yet?

Cause I can think of plenty of ways to remove magnus without grav.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Seeing as Terminators weren't good back then I'm not sure how their delivery system with 3 guns that's 250 points would've been overpowered.

Terminators and Land Raiders were good back then.

They just cost so many points it was tough to include them in an army.

Oh... CSM finally gets a rumor of a 1/2 decent model, and theres a Space Marines Cry about Boycott, F-you. Did we cry boycott about grav guns, Grey Knights, KNIGHTS, centerians, or anything TAU, nope. Im going to make sure I preorder it just to spit in your eye.

 Lunchmonkey wrote:
Oh... CSM finally gets a rumor of a 1/2 decent model, and theres a Space Marines Cry about Boycott, F-you. Did we cry boycott about grav guns, Grey Knights, KNIGHTS, centerians, or anything TAU, nope. Im going to make sure I preorder it just to spit in your eye.

Yes. You complained about all of those.

I'll buy it just to crush people, laugh and then drink their tears.

I wasn't going to buy it, but after reading this thread I think I might

 Bi'ios wrote:
I wasn't going to buy it, but after reading this thread I think I might

There's a really hilarious boycott image out there.

Video gamers were really unhappy with what they were hearing about Modern Warfare 2. So a bunch of them decided to boycott it, and formed a group on Steam called Boycott Modern Warfare 2.

The image is a screenshot of the Steam Group, its name of "Boycott Modern Warfare 2" at the top, and below is a list of about 30-40 of its online members. Over half of them were in-game playing Modern Warfare 2 at the time the screenshot was taken.

I think maybe they didn't understand the point of a boycott is to not buy the thing.

 Traditio wrote:


Do a Daemon Primarch and tactical squads belong in the same game?

A daemon primarch and chaos cultists?

What about chaos cultists and warlord titans?

Let the fluff be what it may, but you are only illustrating my point about scale creep.

A daemon primarch and guardsmen do not belong in the same game.

I don't care what the bloody points costs are.

That's why everyone should boycott things like Magnus the Red, Wraithknights Stormsurges, etc.

At this point, it's too late to send a message to GW about wraithknights, etc.

Yes I absolutely do think they belong in the same game. One of the coolest things about the 40k universe is the breadth of scale in the game. you can play everything from a grot or scarab up to a lord of Skulls or Warlord Titan. LoW piieces are awesome and people want to play them. If you were to break them off into a separate game with no little infantry guys for them to smoosh it wouldn't be any fun. One of the best things about the Epic game of the 90's was not the titans, but all the tiny little tanks and soldiers. Taking down a super heavy with infantry, if you can pull it off is a huge rush! The points just need to be reflective of the power level. TAC lists just need to adjust for the possibility of facing this kind of stuff., and if you've got a themed list, you might get stomped. That's been the case since Rogue Trader, and always will.

As to your boycott, good luck. People will buy this, because it's an awe inspiring model, whether they bring it to pickup games or not, and a lot of players want this kind of stuff avaialable to them in their lists, so This is a reality that you may as well resign your self to dealing with. If you just can't, wouldn't your efforts would be better spent doing something more positive like organizing a campaign, league, or tournament that doesn't allow LoW? There's a million different ways to play 40k.

 Weboflies wrote:
Yes I absolutely do think they belong in the same game. One of the coolest things about the 40k universe is the breadth of scale in the game. you can play everything from a grot or scarab up to a lord of Skulls or Warlord Titan. LoW piieces are awesome and people want to play them. If you were to break them off into a separate game with no little infantry guys for them to smoosh it wouldn't be any fun. One of the best things about the Epic game of the 90's was not the titans, but all the tiny little tanks and soldiers. Taking down a super heavy with infantry, if you can pull it off is a huge rush! The points just need to be reflective of the power level. TAC lists just need to adjust for the possibility of facing this kind of stuff., and if you've got a themed list, you might get stomped. That's been the case since Rogue Trader, and always will.

As to your boycott, good luck. People will buy this, because it's an awe inspiring model, whether they bring it to pickup games or not, and a lot of players want this kind of stuff avaialable to them in their lists, so This is a reality that you may as well resign your self to dealing with. If you just can't, wouldn't your efforts would be better spent doing something more positive like organizing a campaign, league, or tournament that doesn't allow LoW? There's a million different ways to play 40k.

Cool.

So if I get, like, an Emperor Titan, and I drop it into a 2000pt game, you'd be fine with that? Me having a 5ft tall model on the table?

No, i'd call BS because your massively over the points limit.
Feel free to run a reaver though as that would fit.

 Jackal wrote:
No, i'd call BS because your massively over the points limit.
Feel free to run a reaver though as that would fit.

I actually don't know the points value for an Emperor Titan. Imagine an Emperor Titan can fit into the points value of a standard game because it's been another 15 years and scale creep has made it so an Emperor Titan fits into a standard game.

Would you be fine with that?

 Pouncey wrote:


Cool.

So if I get, like, an Emperor Titan, and I drop it into a 2000pt game, you'd be fine with that? Me having a 5ft tall model on the table?

Imperator titans are 4000 points. Yes I'd be fine with that in a 4000 point game as long as the model was painted and based. I may not play that person again after that as long as that was in their list, but It would be amazing to see my army on the same table as an incredible model like that, and try my luck against it, just once, even if I got stomped.

What reason is there to not be fine with it?

The fact that they exist in the game doesn't force you to play against them... But does allow those who want to, to do so.

 Pouncey wrote:


So, uh...

Why are you willing to accept him in the TTG then, if he's that overpowered? Should we be expecting starship orbital bombardments too where you spend like a thousand points and then get a bunch of OP attacks representing an overhead starship just going all-out?

Off table support stuff in the game would be a lot of fun as well, so long as the points were balanced. Bear in mind that stores, campaigns, leagues, and tournament are always free to ban that sort of stuff with their own house rules, and unless it's a tourney, you don't have to play against any list you don't want to.

 Weboflies wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:


Cool.

So if I get, like, an Emperor Titan, and I drop it into a 2000pt game, you'd be fine with that? Me having a 5ft tall model on the table?

Imperator titans are 4000 points. Yes I'd be fine with that in a 4000 point game as long as the model was painted and based. I may not play that person again after that as long as that was in their list, but It would be amazing to see my army on the same table as an incredible model like that, and try my luck against it, just once, even if I got stomped.

Now imagine that Emperor Titans are standard features in army lists, and every army you're facing features something similar, and the game is written to assume they'll be on every battlefield.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
What reason is there to not be fine with it?

The fact that they exist in the game doesn't force you to play against them... But does allow those who want to, to do so.

I'm okay with Primarchs in Apocalypse games, where battles get that ridiculously big.

Not in standard games.

I actually don't know the points value for an Emperor Titan. Imagine an Emperor Titan can fit into the points value of a standard game because it's been another 15 years and scale creep has made it so an Emperor Titan fits into a standard game.

Would you be fine with that?

Then maybe you should actually research a little about what your saying, before going off on a rant with no facts or information to begin with?
If thats the case then the scale creep would also work on other armies, so i'd simply play the game as i always have done.

Warhammer 40k is about the battles in 40k (shock)
In said battles they ranged from small patrols of men fighting it out, to planet wide wars with starships.
So titans fit into the game just fine.
Always have done since armorcast first threw out the warhound and revenant titan.