Why You Should Boycott Magnus the Red

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**Galef**

Wolfblade wrote:
Blues to horrors are 1:1 (horrors are 2W, but also T1. Good against poison, but otherwise always ID'd)

To add to this for the sake of the discussion:
1 Pink splits into 2 Blues. 1 Blue splits into 1 pair of Brimstones (a single 2w base, albeit only T1). So 10 Pinks can become 20 Blues which can themselves become 20 Brimstones. Even considering Brimstones as 1W since they get ID'd by all but Dark Eldar, that is 50 wounds for 90pts. 70 wounds against poor Dark Eldar
The Locus of Creation makes 1 Pink spilt into 4 Blues and each Blue splits into 2 pairs of Brimstones (two 2w bases)

It is worth noting that Loci only work for the unit the Herald has joined. So if the Heralds is joined to Pinks, they will "double split" but the new unit of Blues created will thus split as normal, unless the Herald moves to their unit. So those who are referring to the Loci splitting 10 Pinks into 40 Blues and 80 Brimstones need to stop exaggerating, as only 40 Brimstones will be made
And before any only mentions the Warpflame host that allows the Loci to affect all units within a range of the Herald, unless noted Blue and Brimstone horrors are NOT part of that formation even if their "parent" unit was.

-

**Xenomancers**

Matt.Kingsley wrote:
If Magnus is casting his full number of Psychic Powers (5, or 6 in the Meta Detachment), and 2 of those are the D powers, he's using at least 13/14 Warp Charges a turn to reliable get his powers off (assuming he uses 4 Warp Charges per D power to be almost sure they don't fail and is 1 dicing the WC1 powers).

The thing is though, he won;t be 1 dicing WC1 powers, he'll at the very least be 2-dicing a few WC2 powers like Infernal Gateway, or trying to cast the WC3 version of Flickering Fire. As such he's be using more like 15 Warp Charges. Where is he getting those other 10 from? The rest of the army, which stops them from casting their own powers effectively.

What's more likely is he'll cast Siphon Magic (boosting his 4++ to a 3++) and wait it out to get more WCs. Any friendly psykers in range will cast their powers until they're all done or (more likely) only 8-10 WC dice remain, then Magnus will choose 2-4 Witchfire powers to use, whether they be the short ranged D powers, a WC3 Flickering Fire and both versions of Tzeentch's Firestorm (it appears on both the Tzeentch and Change Disciplines with a slight difference each time).

If Magnus does what you propose then the rest of the army is getting heavily gimped, unless you're running a minimum CSM detachment just to take him alongside a Horror spam daemon list for the sole purpose of charging Magnus's powers. In that cast you're putting pretty much all your eggs in the one basket.

EDIT: Forgot his unique power was WC5, was treating it as being WC3 like Prismatic Gaze.

He needs about as much support as 2 flying daemons. Costs just as much and is about twice as effective and has better spells too boot.

**JimOnMars**

Lord Kragan wrote:
BoomWolf wrote:
Yep. It's a loci.

Still, a squad of 20 pinks will become 80 blues and then 160 brimes.

THE INFINITE SWARM!

Only for the INFINITE WALLET witht he INFINITE TIME! (because it would take god-fething-ever to just palce those mobs)... still it could be fun at least to see once or twice, like all forms of cheapness. Depressing that, again, we are devolving to see daemons with a bit of marines rather than the latter being able to be used standalone.

No, because there is an INFINITE WAIT, since GW apparently doesn't want to sell Blue Horrors or Brimstone horrors.

Since no one has the models, this rule is moot.

**Waaaghpower**

I personally find that balance is best when you know who you're going to be facing. Pickup games in 40k turn into Rock Paper Scissors, but when I know who I'm playing against, and they know what I'm bringing, we tend to actually have a pretty good balance and it comes down to tactics more than just having a better list than the other guy.

In fact, some pretty darn good games I've played pretty recently was when I went through the Wulfen campaign book with a buddy. We both knew what kind of army the other player was bringing (Since you have an outline for what to bring in the mission rules), we both knew exactly what our goal was going to be, and we both tailored the heck out of our lists for that very scenario. Instead of showing up and hoping that our list would work out, we both got exactly what we were expecting, and were able to plan tactics out accordingly. In my opinion, this is the best way for 40k to be played.

And, with that in mind, I don't see a problem with Magnus. He's tough and big and scary, but only if you spring him on an unsuspecting TAC list. (If you spring him on an unsuspecting TAU list, though, you'll just be blown out of the sky.)

Pink/Blue/Brimstone Horrors, though? I have legit no idea what Games Workshop was thinking there.

**koooaei**

Bolters firing at Magnus:
1/6 to wound, 1/2 re-rolling ones - 5/12 to get past the save, 7 wounds ~ 100.8 bolter hits required to kill Magnus.

Bolters firing at pink horrors:
2/3 to wound, 1/3 re-rolling ones - 11/18 to get past the save - 2.(45) bolter hits to kill a horror.

Than it spawns 2 lesser horrors, 5/6 to wound, 11/18 to get past the save - 3.92(72) bolter hits to kill 2 lesser horrors.

Than they spawn 1 even lesser horror each - 5/6 to wound, 11/18 to get past the save - 3.92(72) bolter hits to kill 2 even lesser horrors.

Resulting in 10.3(09) bolter hits to kill one horror.

Magnus costs as much as 72.(2) horrors.
You need 744.(54) bolter hits to kill this many horrors.

Horrors are almost 7.5 times tougher than Magnus vs bolter hits.

**JohnHwangDD**

Waaaghpower wrote:
Pink/Blue/Brimstone Horrors, though? I have legit no idea what Games Workshop was thinking there.

SELL LOTS OF MODELS!

**koooaei**

Poisoned and sniper weapons need 33.6 hits to kill Magnus.
Poisoned and sniper weapons need 1649,(45) hits to kill the equivalent points in Horrors.

Horrors are 49.(09) times tougher than Magnus vs poisoned shooting and sniper weapons.

**Waaaghpower**

koooaei wrote:
Poisoned and sniper weapons need 33.6 hits to kill Magnus.
Poisoned and sniper weapons need 1649,(45) hits to kill the equivalent points in Horrors.

Horrors are 49.(09) times tougher than Magnus vs poisoned shooting and sniper weapons.

Well yeah, because the point of poisoned and sniper weapons is to kill tough targets that would not die to conventional weaponry. It's the bolter hit comparison that I'm more worried about. Bolters aren't supposed to be good at killing MCs and big tough guys.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
Pink/Blue/Brimstone Horrors, though? I have legit no idea what Games Workshop was thinking there.

SELL LOTS OF MODELS!

If that's the case... Where are the models?

**koooaei**

Waaaghpower wrote:
koooaei wrote:
Poisoned and sniper weapons need 33.6 hits to kill Magnus.
Poisoned and sniper weapons need 1649,(45) hits to kill the equivalent points in Horrors.

Horrors are 49.(09) times tougher than Magnus vs poisoned shooting and sniper weapons.

Well yeah, because the point of poisoned and sniper weapons is to kill tough targets that would not die to conventional weaponry. It's the bolter hit comparison that I'm more worried about. Bolters aren't supposed to be good at killing MCs and big tough guys.

Well, they're not good. To net this 101 bolter hits, you need half a game at best. My point is that we now have a regular troop choice that's 7.5 tougher than a t7 MC daemon primarch vs anti-infantry weapons.

**beast_gts**

Waaaghpower wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
Pink/Blue/Brimstone Horrors, though? I have legit no idea what Games Workshop was thinking there.

SELL LOTS OF MODELS!

If that's the case... Where are the models?

Currently they're in Silver Tower

(So they've got the CAD files for them - I'm wondering if we'll see a Start Collecting style box with all three types in)

**JohnHwangDD**

beast_gts wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
Pink/Blue/Brimstone Horrors, though? I have legit no idea what Games Workshop was thinking there.

SELL LOTS OF MODELS!

If that's the case... Where are the models?

Currently they're in Silver Tower

Exactly. Pay 2 Win, please.

**Xenomancers**

koooaei wrote:
Bolters firing at Magnus:
1/6 to wound, 1/2 re-rolling ones - 5/12 to get past the save, 7 wounds ~ 100.8 bolter hits required to kill Magnus.

Bolters firing at pink horrors:
2/3 to wound, 1/3 re-rolling ones - 11/18 to get past the save - 2.(45) bolter hits to kill a horror.

Than it spawns 2 lesser horrors, 5/6 to wound, 11/18 to get past the save - 3.92(72) bolter hits to kill 2 lesser horrors.

Than they spawn 1 even lesser horror each - 5/6 to wound, 11/18 to get past the save - 3.92(72) bolter hits to kill 2 even lesser horrors.

Resulting in 10.3(09) bolter hits to kill one horror.

Magnus costs as much as 72.(2) horrors.
You need 744.(54) bolter hits to kill this many horrors.

Horrors are almost 7.5 times tougher than Magnus vs bolter hits.

Vacum comparison. Magnus will be flying - multiply his toughness vs bolters by approx a factor of 4.

This is already a number of bolter hits that would take 4-5 turns. Nothing the uses a bolter will last 2 turns against magnus.

**AnomanderRake**

Xenomancers wrote:
koooaei wrote:
Bolters firing at Magnus:
1/6 to wound, 1/2 re-rolling ones - 5/12 to get past the save, 7 wounds ~ 100.8 bolter hits required to kill Magnus.

Bolters firing at pink horrors:
2/3 to wound, 1/3 re-rolling ones - 11/18 to get past the save - 2.(45) bolter hits to kill a horror.

Than it spawns 2 lesser horrors, 5/6 to wound, 11/18 to get past the save - 3.92(72) bolter hits to kill 2 lesser horrors.

Than they spawn 1 even lesser horror each - 5/6 to wound, 11/18 to get past the save - 3.92(72) bolter hits to kill 2 even lesser horrors.

Resulting in 10.3(09) bolter hits to kill one horror.

Magnus costs as much as 72.(2) horrors.
You need 744.(54) bolter hits to kill this many horrors.

Horrors are almost 7.5 times tougher than Magnus vs bolter hits.

Vacum comparison. Magnus will be flying - multiply his toughness vs bolters by approx a factor of 4.

This is already a number of bolter hits that would take 4-5 turns. Nothing the uses a bolter will last 2 turns against magnus.

He's done the computation based on hits, ignoring the to-hit roll. Assuming BS4 models (as well you might) it's going to take 600-odd shots to down Magnus if he's in the air and closer to 15.5 shots to kill one Horror, adjusting for cost that's 1,115 shots to kill enough Horrors to equal Magnus' cost.

So Pink Horrors are about twice as tough as Magnus versus bolter shots.

That said if you're trying to kill either by throwing hundreds of bolters at them something has gone horribly wrong in the first place.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

koooaei wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
koooaei wrote:
Poisoned and sniper weapons need 33.6 hits to kill Magnus.
Poisoned and sniper weapons need 1649,(45) hits to kill the equivalent points in Horrors.

Horrors are 49.(09) times tougher than Magnus vs poisoned shooting and sniper weapons.

Well yeah, because the point of poisoned and sniper weapons is to kill tough targets that would not die to conventional weaponry. It's the bolter hit comparison that I'm more worried about. Bolters aren't supposed to be good at killing MCs and big tough guys.

Well, they're not good. To net this 101 bolter hits, you need half a game at best. My point is that we now have a regular troop choice that's 7.5 tougher than a t7 MC daemon primarch vs anti-infantry weapons.

Versus anti-infantry weapons that aren't particularly good at killing them. I haven't seen the specific rules so I can't do the math on it but I suspect if you pointed flamers at them you'd have more luck.

Speaking of which Sisters of Silence are a convenient counter to Pink Horror-spam, 17pts/model for squads of models with flamers that are immune to their offensive powers and shut down other psychic effects pretty handily. Convenient, the incredibly powerful tool showing up right next to the release of the easily-accessible counter, isn't it?

(If GW doesn't release the Sisters of Silence frames separately soon you may point and laugh at my failure to use Heinlein's Law (never ascribe to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity) to the situation.)

**koooaei**

I'm more afraid of horrors than Magnus.

**Xenomancers**

koooaei wrote:
I'm more afraid of horrors than Magnus.

Fair enough - doubt you end up seeing one without the other at least until 8th drops.

**Nurglitch**

So snipe the Heralds and roll up the rest with an assault. They're kind of pillow-fisted in the combat sub-phase and they suffer terribly from Daemonic Instability.

**BoomWolf**

Yea, horrors are insane against most guns.

But are easy to take out in CC. they WILL lose combat, and the instability WILL take it's toll (and no splitting on instability!)

**CrownAxe**

BoomWolf wrote:
Yea, horrors are insane against most guns.

But are easy to take out in CC. they WILL lose combat, and the instability WILL take it's toll (and no splitting on instability!)

Except that they are easy enough to kill in close combat that they will probably get wiped out from close combat attacks alone before even getting to demonic instabilty. And when that happens they still get to split.

**Martel732**

This looks like a job for tac marines.

**StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds**

Martel732 wrote:
This looks like a job for tac marines.

Its never a job for tac marines

**BoomWolf**

A reason why people think CC is not a thing in 7th-they fail to realize you don't need to dominate the assault phase, just to slightly outpreform your opponent.

Heck, my tau pull of assaults every other game XD its just a matter of timing it and choosing the right targets.

**timetowaste85**

CC is still powerful, if you know what you're doing. I play an assault Daemon list and have only lost a single game (6-8 on objectives) at my local. Everyone there is amazed I don't do tourneys anymore. My daemons are on you from jump. Enjoy your first round of shooting. It's the only relevant round you get. Then again, I don't have the same play style as most. So...what do I know?

**AnomanderRake**

Side prediction: After looking over the Split rule and the day-1 FAQs about it I'm guessing when Imperial Agents hits they'll give GK some way to force Daemonic Instability tests (which are explicitly the only thing that prevents splitting) as part of the release broken unit -> release hard counter plan.

**JohnHwangDD**

Yeah, I see that a lot of people are (finally?) getting wound up over the Pink - Blue - Brimstone thing. Heh. I doubt the hard counter comes out immediately. Gotta let Chaos have a day in the sun.

**CrownAxe**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Yeah, I see that a lot of people are (finally?) getting wound up over the Pink - Blue - Brimstone thing. Heh. I doubt the hard counter comes out immediately. Gotta let Chaos have a day in the sun.

Daemons are one of the best armies in the game. they didn't need a buff

**Reavas**

CrownAxe wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Yeah, I see that a lot of people are (finally?) getting wound up over the Pink - Blue - Brimstone thing. Heh. I doubt the hard counter comes out immediately. Gotta let Chaos have a day in the sun.

Daemons are one of the best armies in the game. they didn't need a buff

Daemons in general are good, horrors were always lacking in regards to their usefulness

**Matt.Kingsley**

They were, however, the go-to Troop choice.

Indeed, they've actually lost utility. Without summoning, they're just an Objective-scoring Mana battery.

**Wolfblade**

Matt.Kingsley wrote:
They were, however, the go-to Troop choice.

Indeed, they've actually lost utility. Without summoning, they're just an Objective-scoring Mana battery.

Has anything said they lost summoning? If not BRB says they have Malefic iirc.

**CrownAxe**

Wolfblade wrote:
Matt.Kingsley wrote:
They were, however, the go-to Troop choice.

Indeed, they've actually lost utility. Without summoning, they're just an Objective-scoring Mana battery.

Has anything said they lost summoning? If not BRB says they have Malefic iirc.

The Magnus FAQ

**BoomWolf**

Yep, horrors are now a better battery and horde then they used to be, but not the stand-alone factory they used to be.