Goobi2 wrote: I am toying with an idea of running several Swooping Hawk units together. They can work together to haywire vehicles and/or mow down units with weight of fire. If they shoot a unit down, the others skyleap out. If they can survive fine after, keep them about to weaken/kill a unit (with outside help if necessary) and then jumping out until next turn.
This is a nice idea unique to Ynnari. The only real problem is Hawks can't mow down units with weight of fire. There aren't many armies that consist of small model count easy to kill units, which is all they can kill with their guns. But if you're fighting Genestealer Cults, it'd work.
And they cannot Skyleap out if they arrived that turn, although it would be interest to run 3 units together and if one of them dies in the opponents turn, the other 2 units could indeed Skyleap off the board, and have them return in your following turn. It would be fun, but I don't see it winning games (outside of capturing objectives, which Eldar have no problem doing with other units)
Goobi2 wrote: I am toying with an idea of running several Swooping Hawk units together. They can work together to haywire vehicles and/or mow down units with weight of fire. If they shoot a unit down, the others skyleap out. If they can survive fine after, keep them about to weaken/kill a unit (with outside help if necessary) and then jumping out until next turn.
This is a nice idea unique to Ynnari. The only real problem is Hawks can't mow down units with weight of fire. There aren't many armies that consist of small model count easy to kill units, which is all they can kill with their guns. But if you're fighting Genestealer Cults, it'd work.
And they cannot Skyleap out if they arrived that turn, although it would be interest to run 3 units together and if one of them dies in the opponents turn, the other 2 units could indeed Skyleap off the board, and have them return in your following turn.
It would be fun, but I don't see it winning games (outside of capturing objectives, which Eldar have no problem doing with other units)
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Yeah, I had meant if the enemy shot a unit down the others could skyleap.
But between 3 large ignore cover blasts, several (basically) storm bolter shots, and haywire that is a lot of potential damage to do. They just need to work together all the time.
And though it slightly goes against the hit and run strategy I am advocating, the Soulburst movement could really help bring down flying vehicles. Catching a flyer within 18" of Hawks can be tricky, but within 36" is much easier (assuming you have a unit to spring board off of).
Maybe pair the hawks with some scourges armed with carbines? The scourges can't skyleap but they CAN dish out a ton of fire, to help mow down that unit and trigger the burst. If you have say 3 hawks and 2 scourges, they all land and fire. Scourge 1 kills unit triggering (assuming you have 2 other units someplace) a second round of shooting for scourge 1 and 2. other players turn - they kill one of the hawks or scourges. You can then soulburst and skyleap 2 of the hawks.
One trick pony. But scourges pair well astheticly and can provide nice extra weight of fire without costing a ton.
I have an interesting question, if a ynarri unit kills another unit in assault it can soulburst. Normally if it assaulted into combat it wouldn't be able to attack because its initiative step has already passed. But what if you assault through cover against something with defensive grenades and you don't have assault grenades. Would you then get to attack at I1?
Similarly if a Autarch takes a regular weapon like a laser lance and a power axe as a second weapon (he can take up to two weapons) can he attack at his normal initiative, wipe out a unit and then charge into another unit and attack with his power axe at I1?
lambsandlions wrote: I have an interesting question, if a ynarri unit kills another unit in assault it can soulburst. Normally if it assaulted into combat it wouldn't be able to attack because its initiative step has already passed. But what if you assault through cover against something with defensive grenades and you don't have assault grenades. Would you then get to attack at I1?
Similarly if a Autarch takes a regular weapon like a laser lance and a power axe as a second weapon (he can take up to two weapons) can he attack at his normal initiative, wipe out a unit and then charge into another unit and attack with his power axe at I1?
I played my first game this past weekend using the Yncarne and Visarch in a Craftworld CAD and I had a question about using soulburst with the Yncarne.
The way we played it, after the Yncarne destroyed a unit in CC, he consolidated, than got his free action from SfD. Is this incorrect? Does he not get to consolidate and only gets the free soulburst action, or did we play this correctly.
I must say it really helped him to move across the table quickly. We played deployment on short-table edges (long ways battlefield) and he deepstuck in at the end of my opponents first turn in my deployment zone, cleaved through a CSM Bike squad+Lord, and proceeded to cleave through 2 more units and kill another with psychic, and ended the game barely outside of my enemies deployment zone.
Sadly the Visarch did NOTHING, and died a terrible death to Magnus psychic powers. Failing 3 look out-sirs made short work of him. He was with a squad of Scorpions and the only combat they got into he didnt even get to (or need to swing) as the scorpions killed the unit on their own. It is really stupid that the Visarch does not have an invul or assault grenades.
The best part of the game was the ending, where my troll rangers, who did not cause a SINGLE wound all game, took the last wound off of Magnus. It was glorious!!!
lambsandlions wrote: I have an interesting question, if a ynarri unit kills another unit in assault it can soulburst. Normally if it assaulted into combat it wouldn't be able to attack because its initiative step has already passed. But what if you assault through cover against something with defensive grenades and you don't have assault grenades. Would you then get to attack at I1?
Similarly if a Autarch takes a regular weapon like a laser lance and a power axe as a second weapon (he can take up to two weapons) can he attack at his normal initiative, wipe out a unit and then charge into another unit and attack with his power axe at I1?
Yes.
And these are two incredibly amazing ideas.
You can't soulburst if you are locked in combat.
Other units around you may soulburst, but you do not meet the criteria because, units are considered locked in combat until the end of the phase.
lambsandlions wrote: I have an interesting question, if a ynarri unit kills another unit in assault it can soulburst. Normally if it assaulted into combat it wouldn't be able to attack because its initiative step has already passed. But what if you assault through cover against something with defensive grenades and you don't have assault grenades. Would you then get to attack at I1?
Similarly if a Autarch takes a regular weapon like a laser lance and a power axe as a second weapon (he can take up to two weapons) can he attack at his normal initiative, wipe out a unit and then charge into another unit and attack with his power axe at I1?
Yes.
And these are two incredibly amazing ideas.
You can't soulburst if you are locked in combat.
Other units around you may soulburst, but you do not meet the criteria because, units are considered locked in combat until the end of the phase.
See the FAQ. They changed the wording on Soulburst so it doesn't talk about locked in combat anymore, just if any enemies are making base-to-base contact with you.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
EldarExarch wrote: I played my first game this past weekend using the Yncarne and Visarch in a Craftworld CAD and I had a question about using soulburst with the Yncarne.
The way we played it, after the Yncarne destroyed a unit in CC, he consolidated, than got his free action from SfD. Is this incorrect? Does he not get to consolidate and only gets the free soulburst action, or did we play this correctly.
I must say it really helped him to move across the table quickly. We played deployment on short-table edges (long ways battlefield) and he deepstuck in at the end of my opponents first turn in my deployment zone, cleaved through a CSM Bike squad+Lord, and proceeded to cleave through 2 more units and kill another with psychic, and ended the game barely outside of my enemies deployment zone.
Sadly the Visarch did NOTHING, and died a terrible death to Magnus psychic powers. Failing 3 look out-sirs made short work of him. He was with a squad of Scorpions and the only combat they got into he didnt even get to (or need to swing) as the scorpions killed the unit on their own. It is really stupid that the Visarch does not have an invul or assault grenades.
The best part of the game was the ending, where my troll rangers, who did not cause a SINGLE wound all game, took the last wound off of Magnus. It was glorious!!!
Consolidation comes at the end of combat and is the last step before unlocking you so your Soulburst action should happen before you consolidate.
Audustum wrote: See the FAQ. They changed the wording on Soulburst so it doesn't talk about locked in combat anymore, just if any enemies are making base-to-base contact with you.
Audustum wrote: See the FAQ. They changed the wording on Soulburst so it doesn't talk about locked in combat anymore, just if any enemies are making base-to-base contact with you.
Oh wow. Thanks!
No problem! It's opened a lot of doors for us. Very exciting.
Similarly if a Autarch takes a regular weapon like a laser lance and a power axe as a second weapon (he can take up to two weapons) can he attack at his normal initiative, wipe out a unit and then charge into another unit and attack with his power axe at I1?
Can an Autarch take a Power Axe? I thought it was a Power sword? I'll have to check my book when I get home
Similarly if a Autarch takes a regular weapon like a laser lance and a power axe as a second weapon (he can take up to two weapons) can he attack at his normal initiative, wipe out a unit and then charge into another unit and attack with his power axe at I1?
Can an Autarch take a Power Axe? I thought it was a Power sword? I'll have to check my book when I get home
Huh, interesting idea. Is there anything in the main rulebook that would prohibit a unit from attack twice like that? I'd assume not since the idea was more or less impossible when the book was written.
Nice. I'll have to start working that into my lists. Charge unit A and kill them with his Lance, Soulburst charge unit B and hit them with the Axe. Brutal.
What unit would be best for him to join?
I'm wondering on a tatic for dealing with clustered up Tau. Mainly a stormsurge and broadside/riptides in close range of it to maximize their combined overwatch. My plan:
3 raiders. All with chain snares, night fields and splinter racks.
1 of the Raiders Carries 10 warriors with a single splinter cannon. (Or if points allow, trueborn with carbines and cannons) one has 5 d cannon wraithgaurd the other 5 wraithblades. (Wraith units deploy beside it and ho in turn one then they take off.)
The idea is for the raiders to all screen each other and rip as fast as possible towards the stormsurge and tank shock it. (Assuming it's dropped anchor) - destroying it. It's death then triggers soulbursts for the wraith units to hop out and shoot or charge broad/rip tides. To make this work, and not get the raiders shot down before arrival, would need other more serious down range threats, like a wk or the Yncarne and probally some venoms or what not. But I wonder if that would be a valid trick? Edit: just realized trueborn don't have acsess tonshardcarbine. I thought they did. Still, the extra cannon for them makes it a tempting choice)
Also - I really want to have solid representation from all 3 factions but find I end up with a lot of eldar / dark eldar and only minor harlequin inclusion. That feels racist. Any suggestions on harlequin units that would help my army achieve more of a equal presence?
Caedes wrote: I'm wondering on a tatic for dealing with clustered up Tau. Mainly a stormsurge and broadside/riptides in close range of it to maximize their combined overwatch. My plan:
3 raiders. All with chain snares, night fields and splinter racks.
1 of the Raiders Carries 10 warriors with a single splinter cannon. (Or if points allow, trueborn with carbines and cannons) one has 5 d cannon wraithgaurd the other 5 wraithblades. (Wraith units deploy beside it and ho in turn one then they take off.)
The idea is for the raiders to all screen each other and rip as fast as possible towards the stormsurge and tank shock it. (Assuming it's dropped anchor) - destroying it. It's death then triggers soulbursts for the wraith units to hop out and shoot or charge broad/rip tides. To make this work, and not get the raiders shot down before arrival, would need other more serious down range threats, like a wk or the Yncarne and probally some venoms or what not. But I wonder if that would be a valid trick? Edit: just realized trueborn don't have acsess tonshardcarbine. I thought they did. Still, the extra cannon for them makes it a tempting choice)
Also - I really want to have solid representation from all 3 factions but find I end up with a lot of eldar / dark eldar and only minor harlequin inclusion. That feels racist. Any suggestions on harlequin units that would help my army achieve more of a equal presence?
Against that type of tau, veil of tears is crazy good, especially on ranged threats.
Soul burst doesn't let you disembark, or shoot out of the vehicle.
Veil of tears only really affects the shadowseer and his unit. So great for one unit of harlequins. Maybe a big troupe with attached death jester as well might make this work, but otherwise seems ... weak. If it was a blessing I could spread around then yea, totally awsome.
Unless all ynari casters can acsess phantasma discipline?
Caedes wrote: Veil of tears only really affects the shadowseer and his unit. So great for one unit of harlequins. Maybe a big troupe with attached death jester as well might make this work, but otherwise seems ... weak. If it was a blessing I could spread around then yea, totally awsome.
Unless all ynari casters can acsess phantasma discipline?
Ie warlocks, farseer, yrvaine/Yncarne etc
just put the shadowseer with a different unit. Preferably a long range shooting unit.
Alaa, Shadowseer with a gigantic scatterbike unit. Bam. Literally invincible scatterbikes against his list.
Well. As long as said scatterbikes only move 6" and don't use their jetbike move..... so you are sacrificing pretty much ALL of their mobility. - which I think is the units primary strong points.
That said, could be useful to escort a unit of foot slogging wraithgaurd.
Or stick in with dark reapers
Or attach to a weapons team...
But scatbikes? Nah. Warlock/farseer on bike make them even better then they are.
Nice. I'll have to start working that into my lists. Charge unit A and kill them with his Lance, Soulburst charge unit B and hit them with the Axe. Brutal.
What unit would be best for him to join?
I am thinking reaver jet bikes. They do most their damage at I10. If you kill the whole unit in I10, you can soulburst and have the autarch and reavers use their normal attack. If you kill them at I7 from the autarch you can soulburst, have the reavers us their regular attack and the autarch attack at I1. If the unit dies at I6 from the reavers normal attacks you still have the autarch's I1 attacks.
Visarch and yrvaine, a shadowseer are in the same unit with say incubi.
If the shadow Seer dies, it triggers a soulburst. But can both visarch and yrvaine roll for their "absoarb" abilities? With each one healing wounds and gaining attacks/psychic powers?
Personally I'm liking the idea of a unit of Wraithguard with a WWP Archon and the Armour of Misery, A Farseer rolling on Telepathy (maybe taking Guide as well), Shadowseer with Mask of Secrets rolling on Phantasmancy and maybe the Visarch for Silence.
You drop in, nuke something with Psychic Shrieke at -4 to Ld (-5 if you can get Terrify off as well) and if it's a unit the Visarch can force them to use their lowest Leadership. Thats potnetially a lot of wounds and likely a very dead Riptide squad, Stormsurge, Wraithknight, Dreadknight etc. You then Soulburst and nuke something else with the Wraithcannons and then in your shooting phase hit something else with the Wraithcannons.
Imateria wrote: Personally I'm liking the idea of a unit of Wraithguard with a WWP Archon and the Armour of Misery, A Farseer rolling on Telepathy (maybe taking Guide as well), Shadowseer with Mask of Secrets rolling on Phantasmancy and maybe the Visarch for Silence.
You drop in, nuke something with Psychic Shrieke at -4 to Ld (-5 if you can get Terrify off as well) and if it's a unit the Visarch can force them to use their lowest Leadership. Thats potnetially a lot of wounds and likely a very dead Riptide squad, Stormsurge, Wraithknight, Dreadknight etc. You then Soulburst and nuke something else with the Wraithcannons and then in your shooting phase hit something else with the Wraithcannons.
I just wrote a list with something similar, although I am not willing to put that many characters into 1 unit. I was thinking just the D-scythe WG, Archon & Shadowseer.
Quick question about that: The Armour of Misery says "units", the Mask of Secrets says "models". So if a unit has even 1 model outside of 12" of the Mask, does that mean it doesn't work, since the unit could still use the highest LD? Would that even affect Shriek since it isn't a true LD test (which is where is says to use the highest)? Could you use the majority LD in this case?
I'd be wary of using this tactic against Riptides though. RIptides almost always have EWO and I can say from personal experience that you will not have a unit left if you drop them anywhere a Riptide can see them. A few months ago I tried an D-scythe WG unit with a Shadowfield Archon. My opponent have a Riptide wing. I managed to drop where only 1 Riptide could see them, but it still managed to wipe the unit with 1 blast (Archon rolled a 1 on his first save). Granted it was all luck on the opponents pat, but it is possible you lose the WG before the Psychic phase can protect them. And the FAQ now confirms that you finish resolving an attack before you Soulburst, so you wouldn't have many WG left to soulburst off the dead Archon.
That would be pretty awsome. Only issue I could see - is v tau you could be facing ALOT if interceptor fire potentially getting killed before doing anything. - that unit does not have much in the way of invun saves and tau can drop a lot of str 6+ ap 1-2 shots. Especially if it's a riptide etc you are aiming for. You'd have to draw that interceptor fire off with something else - maybe a yneads net? If it works - you have jetbike squads all coming in from all sides. Then wwp in closeish to his lines but screened by the bikes. Hopefully he takes the bait and goes for the scary big bikes screaming in everywhere giving the portal team a chance.
But just solo .... showing up in a nicely bunched up circle ... just begs tau to divert ALL the ion/fusion/plasma they can. And that'll kill you off before doing anything more then whimper
This talk of attacking with the same model twice using different weapons seems wrong. You choose what weapons you are going to fight with at the beginning of combat or at least before you have to strike at that initiative. Once you have made your attacks you don´t get to attack again just because you are using a different weapon with a slower initiative.
rawne2510 wrote: This talk of attacking with the same model twice using different weapons seems wrong. You choose what weapons you are going to fight with at the beginning of combat or at least before you have to strike at that initiative. Once you have made your attacks you don´t get to attack again just because you are using a different weapon with a slower initiative.
I agree with this. The intent is clear that the model shouldn't get to attack twice, even the FAQ seems to stress this.
About the D-scythe WG vs Tau. There is absolutely no possible unit or plethora of units that would distract firepower from the WG right next to a Riptide. The Tau player will focus everything they have to intercept the heck out of those WG before they get a chance to fire.
The best bet is to place them in cover (which the Riptide is likely near) or have a Character with a decent ++ save in front to absorb some of the hits. In a prefect scenario, the Character absorbs all the hits for the first unit that intercepts so that the surviving WG can Soulburst and shoot the Riptide anyway.
rawne2510 wrote: This talk of attacking with the same model twice using different weapons seems wrong. You choose what weapons you are going to fight with at the beginning of combat or at least before you have to strike at that initiative. Once you have made your attacks you don´t get to attack again just because you are using a different weapon with a slower initiative.
I believe what this is being based on is that the unit is starting a brand new fight sub-phase, just at a different initiative level. The rules say the unit should attack in every fight sub-phase.
I agree. What I was getting at was a solo unit coming in is deader then dead. But multiple units, at the same time force the tau to either ignore some to focus another down, or spread fire out - increasing survival odds for those units (because they are taking less fire)
So if you must deepstrike in - (and I don't like that tatic anyway cause often times you stand there like a tool to get shot to pieces) go all in and bring everything. Otherwise it's a waste of points, a free kp or 2 to the other guy and a waste of potential.
That same unit of WG + archon + Seer + characters can march up field and with psychic soulburst move twice, run and then charge. Possibly covering 18" plus charge range a turn. If you start at edge of deployment on a 6x4 table, you are now maybe one turn away from a charge. And you can use the veil of tears, invisibility and whatever else to keep you covered. - going that way seems much more .... survivable.
I played one game with this formation, paired with Illic Nightspear and a full ranger unit behind them. I really liked how it worked together, when the Shadowseer died I got a full extra round of shooting with the snipers and death jester, and summoned Yncarne where the Shadowseer was who assaulted with the Solitaire in my turn. That forced my opponent to deal with this group while the rest of my army advanced more-or-less unscathed.
So the benefits from it - the infiltrate stealth/shrouded does that pay off in exchange for not being able to join units? I guess if you have elite slot shortage it helps there.
I was thinking of using one loaded up the following way:
Solitaire with mask of secrets
Shadow Seer with star mist raiment (cause he should always be running and not shooting)
Death jester as is.
But I'm likewise tempted to just take them outside the formation and join the death jester and Seer to units to buff them up, while the solitaire hits a flank.
Caedes wrote: I agree. What I was getting at was a solo unit coming in is deader then dead. But multiple units, at the same time force the tau to either ignore some to focus another down, or spread fire out - increasing survival odds for those units (because they are taking less fire)
So if you must deepstrike in - (and I don't like that tatic anyway cause often times you stand there like a tool to get shot to pieces) go all in and bring everything. Otherwise it's a waste of points, a free kp or 2 to the other guy and a waste of potential.
That same unit of WG + archon + Seer + characters can march up field and with psychic soulburst move twice, run and then charge. Possibly covering 18" plus charge range a turn. If you start at edge of deployment on a 6x4 table, you are now maybe one turn away from a charge. And you can use the veil of tears, invisibility and whatever else to keep you covered. - going that way seems much more .... survivable.
I think you can only soulburst once per turn even if you use the spell.
I don't have the codex but doesn't an archon have acces to a piece of wargear that gives him a 2++ until he fails a save? That could keep them alive decently if they deep strike and then if he dies the WG could shoot. Also is it worth putting the archon in the squad if you aren't deep striking them? I thought the whole point of him being there was for the WWP.
Caedes wrote: So the benefits from it - the infiltrate stealth/shrouded does that pay off in exchange for not being able to join units? I guess if you have elite slot shortage it helps there.
I was thinking of using one loaded up the following way:
Solitaire with mask of secrets
Shadow Seer with star mist raiment (cause he should always be running and not shooting)
Death jester as is.
But I'm likewise tempted to just take them outside the formation and join the death jester and Seer to units to buff them up, while the solitaire hits a flank.
As I was using it as an Yncarne delivery system, the infiltrate was very beneficial. I need a unit to die, so the fact they can't join units actually makes that easier. Ideally, the Shadowseer or Death Jester gets killed turn one, summoning the Yncarne and giving the Solitaire a 12" Soulburst move for a turn one assault with both models (not sure I can Soulburst move the Yncarne from the death of the unit that summons him?). I added Illic and the rangers to benefit from the Soulburst and, if my opponent doesn't take the bait on the harlequin characters, to kill off an enemy unit.
Caedes wrote: So the benefits from it - the infiltrate stealth/shrouded does that pay off in exchange for not being able to join units? I guess if you have elite slot shortage it helps there.
I was thinking of using one loaded up the following way:
Solitaire with mask of secrets
Shadow Seer with star mist raiment (cause he should always be running and not shooting)
Death jester as is.
But I'm likewise tempted to just take them outside the formation and join the death jester and Seer to units to buff them up, while the solitaire hits a flank.
As I was using it as an Yncarne delivery system, the infiltrate was very beneficial. I need a unit to die, so the fact they can't join units actually makes that easier. Ideally, the Shadowseer or Death Jester gets killed turn one, summoning the Yncarne and giving the Solitaire a 12" Soulburst move for a turn one assault with both models (not sure I can Soulburst move the Yncarne from the death of the unit that summons him?). I added Illic and the rangers to benefit from the Soulburst and, if my opponent doesn't take the bait on the harlequin characters, to kill off an enemy unit.
Don't forget you can't charge first turn if you infiltrated. That's why infiltrate isn't that good for a solitaire.
However, a death jester infiltrating in cover upfield can sometimes make a unit run off the board first turn (and shrouded helps a lot obviously).
Caedes wrote: That would be pretty awsome. Only issue I could see - is v tau you could be facing ALOT if interceptor fire potentially getting killed before doing anything. - that unit does not have much in the way of invun saves and tau can drop a lot of str 6+ ap 1-2 shots. Especially if it's a riptide etc you are aiming for. You'd have to draw that interceptor fire off with something else - maybe a yneads net? If it works - you have jetbike squads all coming in from all sides. Then wwp in closeish to his lines but screened by the bikes. Hopefully he takes the bait and goes for the scary big bikes screaming in everywhere giving the portal team a chance.
But just solo .... showing up in a nicely bunched up circle ... just begs tau to divert ALL the ion/fusion/plasma they can. And that'll kill you off before doing anything more then whimper
You need to bring a psychic support my friend. Invis/fortune are your friends.
Just want to put this out here, he killed a unit with a combination of the visarche and ynncarne, and then soulburst the ynncarne into Robutt and then took all his attacks including hammer of wrath all over again. That was two full sets of attacks from the ynncarne. And of course Robutte wiped out the avatar and visarch in one round. The guy also had a pretty good grasp of the rules, correcting everyone else, answering questions when they asked, as well.
An archon to take a portal and shadowfield is 70!! Points. And you haven't even given him a weapon yet, plus the base cost of the archon. That's a VERY expensive model to just brush off as a suicide unit to maybe kill one thing. And keep in mind - the unit portals in, then interceptor goes off and of movement phase - possibly wiping out your entire unit. There won't be anything left to soulburst with, let alone use psychic powers. Because your DED before you can do it. And yea - t6 3+ armor is easy for Tau to remove. A few riptide blasts, some plasma/fusion fire, smart missiles... and bye bye. You just dropped in and gave him a 300pt unit kill, and got nothing for it.
If you use psychic support, better off on foot. That way you can actually use the powers. And charge. Soulburst to move is almost as good. Turn 1 deploy max range out at 12". Scout move from eldrad 6". Normal move 6" then soulburst to move again, then run. Your now 30"+run range away from your table edge, 18 from the other guys side. Turn 2 - move soulburst to move and charge. Still a turn 2 charge. But on foot you get veil/invisibility to keep you safe, and can generate damage from shriek or whatever. And honestly with the amount of psykers this army gets their is no reason not to be getting veil and invisibility and the soulburst power.
Caedes wrote: An archon to take a portal and shadowfield is 70!! Points. And you haven't even given him a weapon yet, plus the base cost of the archon. That's a VERY expensive model to just brush off as a suicide unit to maybe kill one thing. And keep in mind - the unit portals in, then interceptor goes off and of movement phase - possibly wiping out your entire unit. There won't be anything left to soulburst with, let alone use psychic powers. Because your DED before you can do it. And yea - t6 3+ armor is easy for Tau to remove. A few riptide blasts, some plasma/fusion fire, smart missiles... and bye bye. You just dropped in and gave him a 300pt unit kill, and got nothing for it.
If you use psychic support, better off on foot. That way you can actually use the powers. And charge. Soulburst to move is almost as good. Turn 1 deploy max range out at 12". Scout move from eldrad 6". Normal move 6" then soulburst to move again, then run. Your now 30"+run range away from your table edge, 18 from the other guys side. Turn 2 - move soulburst to move and charge. Still a turn 2 charge. But on foot you get veil/invisibility to keep you safe, and can generate damage from shriek or whatever. And honestly with the amount of psykers this army gets their is no reason not to be getting veil and invisibility and the soulburst power.
Yeah but Eldrad is almost the cost of two shadowfield and WWP archons.
I am currently building an uber competitive tau army (double stormsurge and a riptide wing) and when you have two (as Galef proposed) units with a T6 2++ tanking, that's a lot of interceptor fire.
Eldrad almost never gets into my army lists, maybe if he is already in yours I can understand. It's a shame too, but his money comes from his warlord trait. If your pressed for HQ's then maybe he might be good, but he's too expensive for a slightly more expensive farseer with an extra mastery level.
Now that he is Ynari, giving scout to some quins isn't a bad idea... but still way too expensive.
Caedes wrote: So the benefits from it - the infiltrate stealth/shrouded does that pay off in exchange for not being able to join units? I guess if you have elite slot shortage it helps there.
I was thinking of using one loaded up the following way:
Solitaire with mask of secrets
Shadow Seer with star mist raiment (cause he should always be running and not shooting)
Death jester as is.
But I'm likewise tempted to just take them outside the formation and join the death jester and Seer to units to buff them up, while the solitaire hits a flank.
Isn't the Mask of Secrets a Shadowseer only item? OR did you mean Shadowseer with Mask and Solitaire with Starmist?
Since you can only take one relic on a dude, I'd always take the mask instead of starmist, unless it's a masque detachment and the character doesn't already have a relic.
It feels like a waste since he already has EW, and that's really the money part of the lost shroud. IWND and FnP is nice, but he doesn't get FnP against S6+ and will die in a single turn of shooting, so IWND might not always make a difference.
So, i'm getting ready for an upcoming ITC event where i'll be running some flavor of Ynnari/Tau (possibly just Riptide Wing, but I am primarily a Tau player so I have access to anything).
For our local meta there aren't too many top-tier lists which show up with one exception.... a guy running Magnus and the Sect.
Any suggestions for Eldar toys to bring which might help? I've been running Ynnari elements of my lists as two Archons with WWP, each with a D-scythe Wraithguard unit. Two min units of Scatbikes, and a Wraithknight.
kind of random, but i am going to an event shortly where we get to see the lists and check them ahead of time. I notice one of my fellow eldar players is taking a side CAD and includes the yncarne in it, is that legal? i thought you could only take it in the reborn warhost where he already has a wraithknight as his LOW?
PyrhusOfEpirus wrote: kind of random, but i am going to an event shortly where we get to see the lists and check them ahead of time. I notice one of my fellow eldar players is taking a side CAD and includes the yncarne in it, is that legal? i thought you could only take it in the reborn warhost where he already has a wraithknight as his LOW?
The Yncarn, Visarch and Yvrain can be taken in any Eldar, Dark Eldar or Harlequin FOC detachment.
Imateria wrote: Personally I'm liking the idea of a unit of Wraithguard with a WWP Archon and the Armour of Misery, A Farseer rolling on Telepathy (maybe taking Guide as well), Shadowseer with Mask of Secrets rolling on Phantasmancy and maybe the Visarch for Silence.
You drop in, nuke something with Psychic Shrieke at -4 to Ld (-5 if you can get Terrify off as well) and if it's a unit the Visarch can force them to use their lowest Leadership. Thats potnetially a lot of wounds and likely a very dead Riptide squad, Stormsurge, Wraithknight, Dreadknight etc. You then Soulburst and nuke something else with the Wraithcannons and then in your shooting phase hit something else with the Wraithcannons.
I just wrote a list with something similar, although I am not willing to put that many characters into 1 unit. I was thinking just the D-scythe WG, Archon & Shadowseer.
Quick question about that: The Armour of Misery says "units", the Mask of Secrets says "models". So if a unit has even 1 model outside of 12" of the Mask, does that mean it doesn't work, since the unit could still use the highest LD? Would that even affect Shriek since it isn't a true LD test (which is where is says to use the highest)? Could you use the majority LD in this case?
I'd be wary of using this tactic against Riptides though. RIptides almost always have EWO and I can say from personal experience that you will not have a unit left if you drop them anywhere a Riptide can see them. A few months ago I tried an D-scythe WG unit with a Shadowfield Archon. My opponent have a Riptide wing. I managed to drop where only 1 Riptide could see them, but it still managed to wipe the unit with 1 blast (Archon rolled a 1 on his first save). Granted it was all luck on the opponents pat, but it is possible you lose the WG before the Psychic phase can protect them.
And the FAQ now confirms that you finish resolving an attack before you Soulburst, so you wouldn't have many WG left to soulburst off the dead Archon.
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I'm guessing you'd need the full enemy unit to be within 12" to get the full -2 Ld benefit. Still, with no scatter deep strike thats not exactly a hard thing to pull off unless your after a massive blob, in which case they probably shouldn't be the target of the the psychic attacks.
It should kind of go without saying that this is not a tactic to use against Tau, their mass interceptor is just too dangerous. The only kind of defence I can think of is having Yvrain and the Visarch in the unit as well, carefully placing them for Look Out, Sir shenanigans between them and the Archon with Shadowfield. You are now, of course, looking at running a Reborn Warhost with the Triumvirate of Ynnead formation and probably a second Warhost to get an Autarch for reserve manipulation, we are no looking at well over 1000pts for 16 models and questionable survivability against all lists. On top of that, whilst you can comfortably nuke three enemy units (provided they are close enough to each other) on the turn you deep strike, you now have a very large, slow moving target.
Definitely not a list you'd take to a tournament, there are far too many counters to it, but for a semi competative friendly game, sure I'm going to use it.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: So, i'm getting ready for an upcoming ITC event where i'll be running some flavor of Ynnari/Tau (possibly just Riptide Wing, but I am primarily a Tau player so I have access to anything).
For our local meta there aren't too many top-tier lists which show up with one exception.... a guy running Magnus and the Sect.
Any suggestions for Eldar toys to bring which might help? I've been running Ynnari elements of my lists as two Archons with WWP, each with a D-scythe Wraithguard unit. Two min units of Scatbikes, and a Wraithknight.
I think I'd do something like:
Riptide Wing - 2 VT, 3 EWO, 1 stims - 630
Drone Net - 224
Your eldar as listed above
Imateria wrote: Personally I'm liking the idea of a unit of Wraithguard with a WWP Archon and the Armour of Misery, A Farseer rolling on Telepathy (maybe taking Guide as well), Shadowseer with Mask of Secrets rolling on Phantasmancy and maybe the Visarch for Silence.
You drop in, nuke something with Psychic Shrieke at -4 to Ld (-5 if you can get Terrify off as well) and if it's a unit the Visarch can force them to use their lowest Leadership. Thats potnetially a lot of wounds and likely a very dead Riptide squad, Stormsurge, Wraithknight, Dreadknight etc. You then Soulburst and nuke something else with the Wraithcannons and then in your shooting phase hit something else with the Wraithcannons.
Thats what i was thinking about, if Shadowseer gets Miror of Minds you roll 1 on d6 + 10Ld = 11, they roll 6 on d6 + 10Ld - 5 penalty = 11. Infinite Loop until they die, no matter what saves they have (unless its Girlyman and his plot armor, or unit is stubborn)
Imateria wrote: Personally I'm liking the idea of a unit of Wraithguard with a WWP Archon and the Armour of Misery, A Farseer rolling on Telepathy (maybe taking Guide as well), Shadowseer with Mask of Secrets rolling on Phantasmancy and maybe the Visarch for Silence.
You drop in, nuke something with Psychic Shrieke at -4 to Ld (-5 if you can get Terrify off as well) and if it's a unit the Visarch can force them to use their lowest Leadership. Thats potnetially a lot of wounds and likely a very dead Riptide squad, Stormsurge, Wraithknight, Dreadknight etc. You then Soulburst and nuke something else with the Wraithcannons and then in your shooting phase hit something else with the Wraithcannons.
Thats what i was thinking about, if Shadowseer gets Miror of Minds you roll 1 on d6 + 10Ld = 11, they roll 6 on d6 + 10Ld - 5 penalty = 11. Infinite Loop until they die, no matter what saves they have (unless its Girlyman and his plot armor, or unit is stubborn)
Stubborn only effects Moral, Fear and Pinning checks, just like Fearless. As for Girlyman, yeah, it would be pretty stupid to target him with the leadership based psychic attacks.
Stubborn only effects Moral, Fear and Pinning checks, just like Fearless. As for Girlyman, yeah, it would be pretty stupid to target him with the leadership based psychic attacks.
Heh, totally missed that one. So it will work on mirror Ynnari wraithknights and stuff.
Don't forget mirror of minds affects a single model, not a unit. An infinite loop will only kill a single model.
It's still pretty good against some MC/GMC (especially the Tau ones that have a low Ld), but it's not as versatile as psychic shriek.
This still won't work against Tau - but yea. armor of misery, mask of secrets combined with shriek is sweet. And the visarch synergies well making the squad leader or attached character almost useless.
Quick question about that: The Armour of Misery says "units", the Mask of Secrets says "models". So if a unit has even 1 model outside of 12" of the Mask, does that mean it doesn't work, since the unit could still use the highest LD? Would that even affect Shriek since it isn't a LD test (which is where we use the highest)? Could you use the majority LD in this case?
Galef wrote: Quick question about that: The Armour of Misery says "units", the Mask of Secrets says "models". So if a unit has even 1 model outside of 12" of the Mask, does that mean it doesn't work, since the unit could still use the highest LD?
Would that even affect Shriek since it isn't a LD test (which is where we use the highest)? Could you use the majority LD in this case?
As far as I know, a unit's Ld is never defined in the rules. So it's unclear which Ld should be used for psychic shriek.
I think majority Ld makes most sense since it's how mixed values are usually handled when you attack a unit.
How does deepstriking in - and drawing ALL OF THE INTERCEPTOR work? For the points cost of this unit
(Archon 165 wraith guard 160, shadowseer 85, = 400+ not counting visarch ,...
I'm assuming this is a 1500 game or more. But even then tau can have 2 riptides for the same cost as this unit.
Step1: you roll For reserves and make it.
Step 2; you place unit down no scattering pointed at juicy target
Step 3: end of movement he intercepts with ALL THE GUNS
You are nice and bunched up. He has large blasts all over the place, plus smart missiles, plasma, fusion and potentially stormsurge weapons.
Step4: you take off your models
Guess what: no psychic phase. No shenanigans. LD doesn't come into play because you don't get to do anything with it. You also don't get to shoot anything, or soulburst off yourself or anything. Because if a blast weapon hits you have to resolve that weapons attacks before soilbursting. And if you tank on a shadow field archon and he fails just one, he's dead and the rest of the wounds go into the unit. They die cause no invun. If something is left - soulburst away. But then he finishes interceptor and your dead. This is a great way to just waste 400+points against Tau. Vrs other armies, with less interceptor - totally awsome. But tau eat this for breakfast and say thanks for the free meal.
Caedes wrote: How does deepstriking in - and drawing ALL OF THE INTERCEPTOR work? For the points cost of this unit
(Archon 165 wraith guard 160, shadowseer 85, = 400+ not counting visarch ,...
I'm assuming this is a 1500 game or more. But even then tau can have 2 riptides for the same cost as this unit.
Step1: you roll For reserves and make it.
Step 2; you place unit down no scattering pointed at juicy target
Step 3: end of movement he intercepts with ALL THE GUNS
You are nice and bunched up. He has large blasts all over the place, plus smart missiles, plasma, fusion and potentially stormsurge weapons.
Step4: you take off your models
Guess what: no psychic phase. No shenanigans. LD doesn't come into play because you don't get to do anything with it. You also don't get to shoot anything, or soulburst off yourself or anything. Because if a blast weapon hits you have to resolve that weapons attacks before soilbursting. And if you tank on a shadow field archon and he fails just one, he's dead and the rest of the wounds go into the unit. They die cause no invun. If something is left - soulburst away. But then he finishes interceptor and your dead. This is a great way to just waste 400+points against Tau. Vrs other armies, with less interceptor - totally awsome. But tau eat this for breakfast and say thanks for the free meal.
What exactly are you trying to prove? We all know what Interceptor on Riptides and the Stormsurge does and how it would effect this unit.
Imateria wrote: Personally I'm liking the idea of a unit of Wraithguard with a WWP Archon and the Armour of Misery, A Farseer rolling on Telepathy (maybe taking Guide as well), Shadowseer with Mask of Secrets rolling on Phantasmancy and maybe the Visarch for Silence.
You drop in, nuke something with Psychic Shrieke at -4 to Ld (-5 if you can get Terrify off as well) and if it's a unit the Visarch can force them to use their lowest Leadership. Thats potnetially a lot of wounds and likely a very dead Riptide squad, Stormsurge, Wraithknight, Dreadknight etc. You then Soulburst and nuke something else with the Wraithcannons and then in your shooting phase hit something else with the Wraithcannons.
I just wrote a list with something similar, although I am not willing to put that many characters into 1 unit. I was thinking just the D-scythe WG, Archon & Shadowseer.
Quick question about that: The Armour of Misery says "units", the Mask of Secrets says "models". So if a unit has even 1 model outside of 12" of the Mask, does that mean it doesn't work, since the unit could still use the highest LD? Would that even affect Shriek since it isn't a true LD test (which is where is says to use the highest)? Could you use the majority LD in this case?
I'd be wary of using this tactic against Riptides though. RIptides almost always have EWO and I can say from personal experience that you will not have a unit left if you drop them anywhere a Riptide can see them. A few months ago I tried an D-scythe WG unit with a Shadowfield Archon. My opponent have a Riptide wing. I managed to drop where only 1 Riptide could see them, but it still managed to wipe the unit with 1 blast (Archon rolled a 1 on his first save). Granted it was all luck on the opponents pat, but it is possible you lose the WG before the Psychic phase can protect them.
And the FAQ now confirms that you finish resolving an attack before you Soulburst, so you wouldn't have many WG left to soulburst off the dead Archon.
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Dropping in near Riptides is fine... you should have majority T6, you SHOULD be able to land in cover and even possibly out of LOS of some riptides. With no scatter deepstrike and fair terrain it is very easy to defend yourself. If your opponent is running mostly Ion then you should make sure to land in terrain, they wont be ignoring cover so it isnt a big deal at all, also the vast majority of competitive players take HBC over Ion due to volume of fire and better TAC. Assuming HBC and SMS the chances of doing any damage to T6 with 3+ or better is very low. In return you should almost certainly nuke 1 or more Riptides depending on how they deployed. Having used a Craftworlds + DE list and testing the WWP Wraithguard, I can say that ive never had the entire or even majority of the unit wiped due to Tau interceptor and I always DS aggressively.
Example math, assume all 3 Riptides shoot:
36 Str 6 shots, 18 hits, 9W
12 Str 5 with RR, 9 hit, 3W for a total of 12W
Between ICs and regular saves youll likely lose 2 Wraithguard and 2W on ICs. I usually take a 6-8 man squad of WG so that is hardly a killing blow and keeps the Ripwing from shooting in their following turn. I also havent had situations where all three Riptides were able to shoot the unit at the same time.
also the vast majority of competitive players take HBC over Ion due to volume of fire and better TAC.
I agree will everything else you mentioned in your post, but it has been my experience both in real life and scanning through loads of online Tau army lists that the HBC is NOT the choice of competitive players. On paper, it would be my first, but then you realize the following:
-HBC is only better than the Ion if you Nova charge it -Nova's are better used for 3++ or Ripple fire -the Ion doesn't really need to Nova'd to be good, thus freeing up the Nova for the above -the majority of other units in a Tau list have volume of fire -HBC while Nova'd is an increased chance of Gets Hot! rolls (statistically you should roll two 1s per shooting)
Then you see why the vast majority of competitive players are actually taking Ion. And that goes double for lists using Eldar + Riptide wing. Eldar have loads of Str6 shots already, so the HBC does not add much. Eldar do not have many high strength/ low AP large blast weapons. Therefore, the Ion cannon becomes the best choice to take alongside Eldar
But I digress. I agree with all your points about Deep Striking WG. I have used this tactic several times on the same opponent who runs 3+ Riptides. It is not that hard to find a spot that is out of LoS to all but 1 Riptide (the one you drop next to) and in cover. I once did so outside of cover because all other spots were visable to the other Riptides, but my Archon was able to pass most of his saves. He eventually rolled a '1' and was Insta-killed along with 1 WG, but the other 4 were able to vaporize him afterwards. And this was before Ynnari.
fresus wrote: Don't forget mirror of minds affects a single model, not a unit. An infinite loop will only kill a single model.
It's still pretty good against some MC/GMC (especially the Tau ones that have a low Ld), but it's not as versatile as psychic shriek.
Do it repeat based on the LD check or causing a unsaved wound?
How were you tanking wounds on the Archon out of deep-strike? The way 40mm bases surround the 25mm base, means that you'd lose two Wraith-Guard before he even starts making saves.
Well you guys are lucky in your area then. Here - everytime Simone tries to deepstrike next to Tau - they get gone very fast. Wwp or not. If your local meta supports it though by all means it's a badass idea. Dropping in nuking leadership then attacking it along side a bunch of D shots to boot ... scary.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: How were you tanking wounds on the Archon out of deep-strike? The way 40mm bases surround the 25mm base, means that you'd lose two Wraith-Guard before he even starts making saves.
Does the Archeon have to be the first model placed??
I didn't realize this, assuming as the Archon was the one granting Deepstrike, that is must be happening off of him.
Suddenly that 2+ save armor is looking valid.
2+ Invulnerable save actually. But yeah, this is the best way to prevent dropping in next to Riptides and getting removed before you even get to shoot. The only downside is when the Archon fails the save, he usually dies because he is only T3. If he somehow survives (like if the Riptide shot with the Str5 Smart missles first) than the Invul is lost for the rest of the game. It is still worth it and draws more than 1 Riptides worth of fire. If you are confident that you'll either roll well with the 2++ or cover, you could place them in view of severall Riptides, drawing out their fire. Then the WG kill one of them, Soulburst to shoot another unit and any surviving Riptides that Intercepted can be ignored this turn.
I didn't realize this, assuming as the Archon was the one granting Deepstrike, that is must be happening off of him.
Suddenly that 2+ save armor is looking valid.
2+ Invulnerable save actually. But yeah, this is the best way to prevent dropping in next to Riptides and getting removed before you even get to shoot.
the only downside is when the Archon fails the save, he usually dies because he is only T3. If he somehow survives (like if the Riptide shot with the Str5 Smart missles first) than the Invul is lost for the rest of the game.
It is still worth is and draws more than 1 Riptides worth of fire. If you are confident that you'll either roll well with the 2++ or cover, you could place them in view of all Riptides, drawing out the fir from several of them. Then the WG kill one of them, Soulburst to shoot on other and any surviving Riptides that Intercepted can be ignored this turn.
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Well, I tend to roll with at least one Farseer rolling on Fates, so there is a somewhat fair chance of that being a 2++, rerollable... which I imagine will tend to absorb a fair bit of fire.
Seriously though... you've got me rethinking a lot of nuance as I genuinely believed the Archon needed to be at the center of said deepstrike.
Hey folks, got my first game in with the new Aeldari this past weekend. Very fun to play - the look of dismay on your opponent's face when you SfD on their turn is without parallel.
I am primarily a Harlequin player, so I wanted to play something that would allow the clowns to really benefit from the new detachment. I ended up getting teamed up with another player (due to lack of tables at our local GW) in a 3000 point game against a Blood Angels player. My teammate was playing Genestealer Cult, which made for kind of an amusing team. We each had a 1500 point force vs. the BA player's 3000 point army. Our opponent's list was pretty suboptimal so I can't draw a lot of conclusions from the game itself, but I did get a pretty good feel for how a melee Aeldari force could work.
First, my list:
Yvraine
Shadowseer (lv 1, Mask of Secrets, Haywire Grenade)
Wraithblades x 10 (ghost axe, shield)
Harlequin Troupe x 6
- Starweaver
- Caress x 6
Harlequin Troupe x 6
- Starweaver
- Kiss x 5
- Cegorach's Rose and Haywire Grenade on Troupe Master
Harlequin Troupe x 6
- Starweaver
- Embrace x 5
- Hungering Blade and Haywire Grenade on TM
Windriders x 3
-Scatter Lasers
Windriders x 3
-Scatter Lasers
War Walker w/Dual Bright Lance
Basically, the Wraithblades, Yvraine and the Shadowseer joined up to form a death star. Yvraine rolled on Sanctic (which is great for her in this unit) and got Sanctuary and Purge Soul. Yvraine's fixed warlord trait gives that unit a 14" Strength from Death radius, so it activates when pretty much anything dies on its side of the board. Other players suggested that I bring an Archon w/a WWP to drop that unit downfield, but I found that it was actually quite fast on foot, and I never felt like I needed it. The Shadowseer was there to cast Veil and to give the unit Hit and Run (which helps a lot, as the 'Blades rely on that Rage bonus to really do some damage).
My teammate in this game did not contribute a great deal - he was running a mech GSC force, which missed a lot with their BS3 Leman Russ, Chimera and Sentinel shots. In essence, it was really a Guard force with a few GSC units. I think his total contribution was killing a Rhino and the Tac Squad that was riding it, and killing a single unit of Terminators with a Purestrain unit after my Harlequins wrecked their Land Raider. Thus, it was basically Aeldari versus a 3000 point Blood Angels force for must of the game, and he was almost tabled by the end of Turn 4 (when we had to call it as the shop was closing).
As mentioned above, our opponent's list was pretty bad, so it is hard to draw a lot of conclusions, but here are a few of my thoughts:
The Yvraine-Blade star did work. It got pounded, including by a podded Furioso on the first turn which managed to wipe out five 5 Blades before I took it down in combat. Brutal opening which had me sweating at the end of the first turn! Yet, the Yvraine star went on to survive the entire game, shrugging off an absurd amount of firepower and killing mutiple units in combat. Having a unit like this with mxed Initiative values is a huge plus, too, as under the new FAQ it allows you to pull off a really fun trick: finishing off an enemy unit with the High I characters, then charge into another combat with all the Wraithblades' I1 attacks, potentially wiping 2 units per turn. I also had Sanctuary up on this unit for most of the game. T6 with a 3++ is a hard nut to crack!
The Caress Troupe and the Embrace Troupe were all stars, but the Kiss Troupe was a disappointment. Caresses are amazing, as always, allowing me to wreck a Land Raider in a single round of combat. The Embraces were also fantastic, allowing me to wipe a bike squad at the I10 step.
The Embrace's stock has definitely risen, in my opinion, if you run it in a Reborn Warhost. You can charge a vehicle with the Embrace (like, say, an enemy transport), wreck it with the hammer of wrath attacks, and then charge the disembarking passengers and still have all of the unit's regular attacks. Brutal . I like to have a Haywire Grenade on the Troupe Masters (except for the Caress TM, for whom it is kind of redundant) so that I can finish any vehicles off that are left on 1 HP, then SfD to charge into then next unit. I will probably run a very similar list next time, except cutting out the Kiss Troupers and switching over to purely Caresses and Embraces (maybe 3~ of each in each squad) and see if I like that better.
Using Strength from Death to activate Scatrider shooting, even with just a 3 bike unit, feels almost unfair. I kept the bikes behind my main battle line, and advanced them along with the rest of the army, so they got to fire on my opponent's turn quite a bit. They started out with both units within 7" of the War Walker, which was basically just there to give my opponent a tempting target (as well as a little extra anti-tank) that would allow me to activate SfD. I liked it quite a bit, and would definitely consider putting a few of them in a USF at higher point levels.
Finally, I was very pleased with Yvraine. She seems pretty expensive, but she synced up really well with the 'Blades, and having a 14" radius for SfD makes it a lot easier to keep them moving up the board. Her extra psychic dice came in very handy (although I got quite lucky and rolled a 5 or 6 almost every turn). I was basically able to give my teammate all of the psychic dice from the regular D6 (he was summoning), just keeping the Warp Charge generated by my own Psykers, and felt like I had plenty of dice to get off a power every turn. She is no slouch in combat either, IDing a couple of BA characters. I wish her weapon was AP2, but oh well, that's what the Wraithblades are for.
Overall, I was very happy with the list. I'd be interested to hear how others who have tried out Harlequins in a Reborn Warhost have fared.
So... here's a question as I am really min-maxing my list and trying to squeeze in everything i'd like to...
If I have to, for points, drop one Wraithguard unit down to Cannons instead of D-scythes, and without a WWP Archon... are they even worth taking?
Foot-slogging with the 12" shot seems pretty mediocre, but I don't know what to do with the 150pts otherwise. I'm already using every Scat-bike I own at present, and have no more HQ slots free to play with.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: So... here's a question as I am really min-maxing my list and trying to squeeze in everything i'd like to...
If I have to, for points, drop one Wraithguard unit down to Cannons instead of D-scythes, and without a WWP Archon... are they even worth taking?
Foot-slogging with the 12" shot seems pretty mediocre, but I don't know what to do with the 150pts otherwise. I'm already using every Scat-bike I own at present, and have no more HQ slots free to play with.
Unless you have a Shadowseer with them casting Veil of Tears, I really don't see any point in footslogging WG.
I also just thought of a fun way to get the most of WWP D-Scythe WG. If you take a Shadowseer with Shriek, drop in next to 2 units and the Shriek kills one of the units, instead or using the Soulburst to shoot at the other unit. you could move instead, spreading out the models to get all 5 template onto the unit when your normal shooting comes around.
This is a good idea when there are only 2 units close enough. If there are 3 units, or Shriek fails to kill the whole unit, then Soulburst to shoot again is a good idea.
I realize this might be better suited for YMDC... but I could make it work, and provide an Archon with WWP IF I could take an Allied Ynnari detachment.
Can Ynnari even take CADs and Allied detachments???
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I realize this might be better suited for YMDC... but I could make it work, and provide an Archon with WWP IF I could take an Allied Ynnari detachment.
Can Ynnari even take CADs and Allied detachments???
No, sadly.
It needs to be a reborn warhost or one of the Ynari formations.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I realize this might be better suited for YMDC... but I could make it work, and provide an Archon with WWP IF I could take an Allied Ynnari detachment.
Can Ynnari even take CADs and Allied detachments???
No, sadly.
It needs to be a reborn warhost or one of the Ynari formations.
And this is because there are no "natural" Ynnari Troops to fill Allied and CADs. Only the Ynnari Formations and the Reborn Warhost makes units have the Ynnari faction
At this point, I am seeing the majority of Ynnari lists being double Reborn Warhost.
fresus wrote: Don't forget mirror of minds affects a single model, not a unit. An infinite loop will only kill a single model.
It's still pretty good against some MC/GMC (especially the Tau ones that have a low Ld), but it's not as versatile as psychic shriek.
Do it repeat based on the LD check or causing a unsaved wound?
Both "models" roll a D6 and add their Leadership. If there is a tie, or the Shadowseer wins, target model suffers a Wound. Repeat until target model dies or wins. If you knock the Leadership low enough, then the Shadowseer cannot lose and you either waste time rolling or just remove the model as a casualty.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I realize this might be better suited for YMDC... but I could make it work, and provide an Archon with WWP IF I could take an Allied Ynnari detachment.
Can Ynnari even take CADs and Allied detachments???
No, sadly.
It needs to be a reborn warhost or one of the Ynari formations.
And this is because there are no "natural" Ynnari Troops to fill Allied and CADs. Only the Ynnari Formations and the Reborn Warhost makes units have the Ynnari faction
At this point, I am seeing the majority of Ynnari lists being double Reborn Warhost.
Oh, I absolutely would have. Double Warhost is easy to do thanks to the best troops in the game, and desirable HQ slots. I just could not make the points and was hoping to eek something out.
also the vast majority of competitive players take HBC over Ion due to volume of fire and better TAC.
I agree will everything else you mentioned in your post, but it has been my experience both in real life and scanning through loads of online Tau army lists that the HBC is NOT the choice of competitive players. On paper, it would be my first, but then you realize the following:
-HBC is only better than the Ion if you Nova charge it
-Nova's are better used for 3++ or Ripple fire
-the Ion doesn't really need to Nova'd to be good, thus freeing up the Nova for the above
-the majority of other units in a Tau list have volume of fire
-HBC while Nova'd is an increased chance of Gets Hot! rolls (statistically you should roll two 1s per shooting)
Then you see why the vast majority of competitive players are actually taking Ion.
And that goes double for lists using Eldar + Riptide wing. Eldar have loads of Str6 shots already, so the HBC does not add much. Eldar do not have many high strength/ low AP large blast weapons. Therefore, the Ion cannon becomes the best choice to take alongside Eldar
But I digress. I agree with all your points about Deep Striking WG. I have used this tactic several times on the same opponent who runs 3+ Riptides. It is not that hard to find a spot that is out of LoS to all but 1 Riptide (the one you drop next to) and in cover. I once did so outside of cover because all other spots were visable to the other Riptides, but my Archon was able to pass most of his saves. He eventually rolled a '1' and was Insta-killed along with 1 WG, but the other 4 were able to vaporize him afterwards. And this was before Ynnari.
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All true but worth pointing out that if the Tau player is taking a Riptide Wing, there's a decent chance that he may also take a Drone Net (which grants all the drones Interceptor as well). So be careful about what "cover" you think you have. But it is true that the riptides with majority AP 4 won't really matter (because truly, the HBC are far superior to the ion cannon). But you'll still have a ton of saves to make and possibly ignores cover rends to worry about. Definitely pray for the 2++ to work well and make judicious use of LOS if you can take your 3+ save
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: So... here's a question as I am really min-maxing my list and trying to squeeze in everything i'd like to...
If I have to, for points, drop one Wraithguard unit down to Cannons instead of D-scythes, and without a WWP Archon... are they even worth taking?
Foot-slogging with the 12" shot seems pretty mediocre, but I don't know what to do with the 150pts otherwise. I'm already using every Scat-bike I own at present, and have no more HQ slots free to play with.
If you buy a raider as a FA option then turn 1 jump them in a turbo boost 24" across the table into your opponents deployment zone they are scary.
All true but worth pointing out that if the Tau player is taking a Riptide Wing, there's a decent chance that he may also take a Drone Net (which grants all the drones Interceptor as well). So be careful about what "cover" you think you have. But it is true that the riptides with majority AP 4 won't really matter (because truly, the HBC are far superior to the ion cannon). But you'll still have a ton of saves to make and possibly ignores cover rends to worry about. Definitely pray for the 2++ to work well and make judicious use of LOS if you can take your 3+ save
The HBC is only good when being used with skyfire and interceptor on FMC and flyers. Otherwise the Ion cannon is far superior in all other aspects with Str 8 large blasts at AP2 usually ID on most models in game.
SonsofVulkan wrote: If a Ynari unit contains both Ynari and non-Ynari ICs (farseer from a CAD), can Ynari models from that unit still benefit from SfD?
No. SfD specifically states that units that contain all models with this rule get to Soulburst.
I didn't realize this, assuming as the Archon was the one granting Deepstrike, that is must be happening off of him.
Suddenly that 2+ save armor is looking valid.
2+ Invulnerable save actually. But yeah, this is the best way to prevent dropping in next to Riptides and getting removed before you even get to shoot.
The only downside is when the Archon fails the save, he usually dies because he is only T3. If he somehow survives (like if the Riptide shot with the Str5 Smart missles first) than the Invul is lost for the rest of the game.
It is still worth it and draws more than 1 Riptides worth of fire. If you are confident that you'll either roll well with the 2++ or cover, you could place them in view of severall Riptides, drawing out their fire. Then the WG kill one of them, Soulburst to shoot another unit and any surviving Riptides that Intercepted can be ignored this turn.
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Yes, but critically, and I didn't realize this until just recently: The shadowfield is not gone the first time you fail it, it's gone after any phase where you took one or more wounds from it.
Doesn't really help vs Iontides or other S6+ stuff, but vs mass S5 like most of the tau small arms, it's a BIG deal to get the full shooting phase's oomph out of the Shadowfield.
All true but worth pointing out that if the Tau player is taking a Riptide Wing, there's a decent chance that he may also take a Drone Net (which grants all the drones Interceptor as well). So be careful about what "cover" you think you have. But it is true that the riptides with majority AP 4 won't really matter (because truly, the HBC are far superior to the ion cannon). But you'll still have a ton of saves to make and possibly ignores cover rends to worry about. Definitely pray for the 2++ to work well and make judicious use of LOS if you can take your 3+ save
The HBC is only good when being used with skyfire and interceptor on FMC and flyers. Otherwise the Ion cannon is far superior in all other aspects with Str 8 large blasts at AP2 usually ID on most models in game.
Far superior? With a large blast you usually max out at 5 hits IF you don't scatter. Let's say you also spent 2 ML to ignore cover. So yeah you've got a nice pie plate that probably killed 4 models (still have to wound). That's best-case scenario. Or you got lucky and got one pen (unlikely as it's no better than a standard missile launcher, which can scatter easily)
With HBC you can easily get 10 hits, so say 2 rends and probably 2 failures to wound, but 6 more AP 4 wounds. If you're ignoring cover, it's only worse against 2+ saves (and even then only by 1 on average)
TLDR: HBC gets more wounds on average, gets more possible wounds, is better against vehicles, flyers and literally anything except 2+ armor when you use ignores cover AND score a direct hit on scatter. If that's not the definition of "better in every way", you'll have to explain to me what is. T4 multi wound models are a lot less common nowadays because of the advent of a ton of str 8+ shooting, so your dream scenario hardly ever happens. And oh how I wish it did. I miss my paladins
The tournament scene just doesn´t support you claims that the HBC is better.
Using your nova to boost the 12 shots means you aren´t allowing yourself the option of other support where as the Ion cannon does.
Don´t forget if I nova the Ion cannon I get Str 9 ordanance so mush better chance of Penetrating vehicles and I have a chance of blowing it up. The HBC has no hope of doing that.
Your assessment of the burst cannon getting more wounds means you are using ML to buff BS and then ignoring cover so you are now using 4 ML to the 2 ML the ion cannon is using.
You don´t get to buff your Inv or fire the support weapon twice or boost your jet pack movement because you want to gain the rending option. If you do choose something else then the TBC is just worse again.
I reiterate the only reason competative players put a TBC in a riptide wing is to improve anti flyer capability
The tournament scene just doesn´t support you claims that the HBC is better.
Using your nova to boost the 12 shots means you aren´t allowing yourself the option of other support where as the Ion cannon does.
Don´t forget if I nova the Ion cannon I get Str 9 ordanance so mush better chance of Penetrating vehicles and I have a chance of blowing it up. The HBC has no hope of doing that.
Your assessment of the burst cannon getting more wounds means you are using ML to buff BS and then ignoring cover so you are now using 4 ML to the 2 ML the ion cannon is using.
You don´t get to buff your Inv or fire the support weapon twice or boost your jet pack movement because you want to gain the rending option. If you do choose something else then the TBC is just worse again.
I reiterate the only reason competative players put a TBC in a riptide wing is to improve anti flyer capability
I agree with all of this. 90% of the Riptide Wing lists I have seen prefer the Ion. At best you see 2 Ions & 1 HBC. But the main point is that the HBC has to be augmented by Nova Charge and MLs. The Ion memely needs to be overcharged, thus allowing your Nova charge and MLs to be used for other things (like 3++ and Ignores cover). I would also argue that the Ion is very decent against Flyers as the higher Str and guaranteed AP2 will make more Flyers & FMCs Jink.
Getting slightly back on Ynnari topic, taking a Ridtide Wing alongside Ynnari, you'll want the Ions as well, since the "competitive" shooting units are all RoF weapons, not Large Blasts. They give use options we just don't have otherwise, and Intercepting a Blast is pretty deadly against Deep strikers.
I finally got a game in with the Reborn Host the other day. It was sadly an unsatisfying experience. I took 2 Hosts + USF. My opponent was Guard with 2 Punishers (1 with Pask) and 2 separate Leman Russ tanks with Plasma cannon (not sure the name). He also have 2 Chimera Vet units, a few 3-man Psyker suqads and a HUGE mega-blob with Inquisitors. The reason the game was unsatisfying is because I didn't get a single Soulburst all game. There was a ton of LoS blocking terrain, so he could barely shoot any of my units. By turn 3 he hadn't killed a single model of mine (not even the USF Vypers in his deployment) so he forfeit.
It was mostly just bad rolls on his part, not having good targets and me rolling hot on my WKs FNP and the Vypers Jink. But something important I learned is that castling is not as easy as I thought it would be, and even with an Autarch you can still roll 1s for Reserve (so relying on units to come in can be dangerous)
I just want to make sure you guys aren't planning for the wrong thing. I'm checking every tournament result with lists provided on it that I can find and so far I've only found 1 single riptide with an Ion Cannon and that was from the most recent LVO. The other 5 riptides in the top eight were still HBC.
There were 3 riptide wings in the top 8 and every single one of the riptides (10 total) ran a HBC.
And the reason for that is that none of those armies needed the Large Blast at any point.
2 were non tau lists with Skatarch WK with flamestorm templates and the other was a tau list with 2 in your face Y-Tides that wanted non scatter shooting. I have to admit that ITC in america generally seems to prefer HBC. Maybe its an ITC thing. every riptide wing I have seen in UK tournaments run 2 Ion and 1 HBC maybe.
lessthanjeff wrote: I just want to make sure you guys aren't planning for the wrong thing. I'm checking every tournament result with lists provided on it that I can find and so far I've only found 1 single riptide with an Ion Cannon and that was from the most recent LVO. The other 5 riptides in the top eight were still HBC.
That's news to me then. And certainly makes WWP D-scythe WG a much more powerful option if you don't have to worry about that AP2 Blast that wounds them on 2+ immediately after they drop. I'd gladly face 1-2 Rending wounds (and the rest only wounding on 4+ AP4) over that.
I highly anticipate the Reborn Host to dramatically affect tourney results in the coming months. WWPWG are a pretty hard counter to Riptides, especially if they aren't intercepting with Ion.
The wraithknights do not have the flamestorm templates. The inferno lance is the melta shot one so the presence of other templates did not affect those decisions.
Either way, if the discussion is about preparing for the riptide wing as you'll face it on top tables shouldn't the discussion be about which variant you see regardless of what the army's faction counts as?
If you have some other tournament results for counter examples I'd be interested to see them regardless of format.
lessthanjeff wrote: I just want to make sure you guys aren't planning for the wrong thing. I'm checking every tournament result with lists provided on it that I can find and so far I've only found 1 single riptide with an Ion Cannon and that was from the most recent LVO. The other 5 riptides in the top eight were still HBC.
That's news to me then. And certainly makes WWP D-scythe WG a much more powerful option if you don't have to worry about that AP2 Blast that wounds them on 2+ immediately after they drop. I'd gladly face 1-2 Rending wounds (and the rest only wounding on 4+ AP4) over that.
I highly anticipate the Reborn Host to dramatically affect tourney results in the coming months. WWPWG are a pretty hard counter to Riptides, especially if they aren't intercepting with Ion.
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Agree. WG are going to destroy riptide wings in the new warhost. That may change the meta of riptides over the next 2-3 months maybe
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lessthanjeff wrote: The wraithknights do not have the flamestorm templates. The inferno lance is the melta shot one so the presence of other templates did not affect those decisions.
Either way, if the discussion is about preparing for the riptide wing as you'll face it on top tables shouldn't the discussion be about which variant you see regardless of what the army's faction counts as?
If you have some other tournament results for counter examples I'd be interested to see them regardless of format.
Just to add some in: I tried this out in a semi competitive game and it worked awsome.
5 WG /cannons, 1 shadowseer at lvl 2 with mask of secrets (take shriek and veil) and another character with good save to tank wounds. Yrvaine works awsome here. (The 4++ and EW) load them into a wave serpent. Drive up shooting as you go, or flat out to get there faster. Jump out, get within 12" of 2 units
Psychic phase
Shadowseer uses veil of tears for defense just in case. Then hits a unit with psychic shriek. (Target at -2ld) it should seriously mess up a unit. Yrvaine can hopefully finish off any survivors with rev shooting attacks. Shooting phase nuke unit the second with d cannons. Soulburst to get back in the serpent, then repeat. If you fail to get a soulburst you have veil protection, and yrvaine can tank saves passing offf with LOS to the WG, healing when they die. It's super effective fast and not horribly expensive.
I see nothing that says you can't use soulburst to get into a transport, however he wouldn't be able to do this tatcic in particular because you can't both enter and exit a transport in a single turn.
Just came back from a 16 player ITC event... and man... my Ynnari were almost "feel bad" brutal. The event was a mix of some very meta/competitive lists, and some for fun players, but I ended up playing all "serious" gamers. Ended up coming in 2nd without any losses, because it was only three rounds so the other undefeated guy just rolled all of his opponents and was unreachable for over-all points.
I ran a Riptide Wing with Ion and EWO, two Archons with WWP, a Sword Wraithknight, two min Scat bikes, two min Kabalites, a Farseer, an Archon, and two Wraith Guard (one with Cannon, one with Scythe), plus a suicide Khymaera puppy.
The big take away I wanted to contribute to this thread was that against an army with Deep Strike... Interceptor/Soul Burst is a horrific demoralizing combo. In my game against a Skyhammer and the whole Shadowstrike Kill team, I turtled up, bubble wrapped the good stuff with bikes/kabalites, and used interceptor to focus down one Grav-unit. The way my two Warhosts were divided yielded me THREE soul-bursts off that kill alone.
It felt like I ended up playing more of my opponents turn then they did throughout the event. And even my game against Warcon would've been a tabling if we went another turn, as Basilius Cawl was all that was left.
I can't state enough for those here who haven't tried Ynnari yet... how almost impossibly good of an army it is. The tournament even had a CWE player, Forgeworld Knights, etc... and just the lack of Soulburst made a top-tier (or close) army look competitively terrible.
Top 3 ended up being a really ecclectic Coteaz/Thunderfire-Cannon/FW Artillery list, myself, and a top-tier Warcon player (strong list, and probably the best actually player there).
Just came back from a 16 player ITC event... and man... my Ynnari were almost "feel bad" brutal. The event was a mix of some very meta/competitive lists, and some for fun players, but I ended up playing all "serious" gamers. Ended up coming in 2nd without any losses, because it was only three rounds so the other undefeated guy just rolled all of his opponents and was unreachable for over-all points.
I ran a Riptide Wing with Ion and EWO, two Archons with WWP, a Sword Wraithknight, two min Scat bikes, two min Kabalites, a Farseer, an Archon, and two Wraith Guard (one with Cannon, one with Scythe), plus a suicide Khymaera puppy.
The big take away I wanted to contribute to this thread was that against an army with Deep Strike... Interceptor/Soul Burst is a horrific demoralizing combo. In my game against a Skyhammer and the whole Shadowstrike Kill team, I turtled up, bubble wrapped the good stuff with bikes/kabalites, and used interceptor to focus down one Grav-unit. The way my two Warhosts were divided yielded me THREE soul-bursts off that kill alone.
It felt like I ended up playing more of my opponents turn then they did throughout the event. And even my game against Warcon would've been a tabling if we went another turn, as Basilius Cawl was all that was left.
I can't state enough for those here who haven't tried Ynnari yet... how almost impossibly good of an army it is. The tournament even had a CWE player, Forgeworld Knights, etc... and just the lack of Soulburst made a top-tier (or close) army look competitively terrible.
Top 3 ended up being a really ecclectic Coteaz/Thunderfire-Cannon/FW Artillery list, myself, and a top-tier Warcon player (strong list, and probably the best actually player there).
That's pretty amazing to hear. I have a tourney in 2 weeks that I am bringing my Ynnari to. I keep getting tempted by the Riptide wing, but sadly it's a big investment for me (not only for the Riptides, but for BOTH books that have the Tau rules and the formation rules) Would you say that the Riptides made a huge impact on your games, or would more bikes and possibly a USF be able to fill in? I know Riptides are amazing, but I'd like to stay 100% Aeldari
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: ...The way my two Warhosts were divided yielded me THREE soul-bursts off that kill alone...
How are you getting 3 soulburst out of 1 unit's death? In the BRB somewhere (do not have a rulebook in hand) it states that the same special rule does not stack unless otherwise specified. Similar to having two drone-net for tau does not give the drones +2BS. So the way I am interpreting it is that even with 2 Reborn Warhost Detachment you can only soulburst 2 unit max out of 1 unit's death... Would love to be wrong but that is how I am interpreting it.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: ...The way my two Warhosts were divided yielded me THREE soul-bursts off that kill alone...
How are you getting 3 soulburst out of 1 unit's death? In the BRB somewhere (do not have a rulebook in hand) it states that the same special rule does not stack unless otherwise specified. Similar to having two drone-net for tau does not give the drones +2BS. So the way I am interpreting it is that even with 2 Reborn Warhost Detachment you can only soulburst 2 unit max out of 1 unit's death... Would love to be wrong but that is how I am interpreting it.
The way I interpret this is that if a unit from Reborn Host A soulbursts, another unit from Host A also get to, but a unit from Host B cannot The extra Soulburst must be from the same Host because Command Benefits only affect units in the same detachment.
I have seen tons of players think you get 3 Soulburst off the same kill, but I just do not see how that is possible unless you ignore the Command Benefit rules. Ignoring that would be like claiming my WIndrider Host Scatterbikes gain Obsec because I took a CAD too.
Just came back from a 16 player ITC event... and man... my Ynnari were almost "feel bad" brutal. The event was a mix of some very meta/competitive lists, and some for fun players, but I ended up playing all "serious" gamers. Ended up coming in 2nd without any losses, because it was only three rounds so the other undefeated guy just rolled all of his opponents and was unreachable for over-all points.
I ran a Riptide Wing with Ion and EWO, two Archons with WWP, a Sword Wraithknight, two min Scat bikes, two min Kabalites, a Farseer, an Archon, and two Wraith Guard (one with Cannon, one with Scythe), plus a suicide Khymaera puppy.
The big take away I wanted to contribute to this thread was that against an army with Deep Strike... Interceptor/Soul Burst is a horrific demoralizing combo. In my game against a Skyhammer and the whole Shadowstrike Kill team, I turtled up, bubble wrapped the good stuff with bikes/kabalites, and used interceptor to focus down one Grav-unit. The way my two Warhosts were divided yielded me THREE soul-bursts off that kill alone.
It felt like I ended up playing more of my opponents turn then they did throughout the event. And even my game against Warcon would've been a tabling if we went another turn, as Basilius Cawl was all that was left.
I can't state enough for those here who haven't tried Ynnari yet... how almost impossibly good of an army it is. The tournament even had a CWE player, Forgeworld Knights, etc... and just the lack of Soulburst made a top-tier (or close) army look competitively terrible.
Top 3 ended up being a really ecclectic Coteaz/Thunderfire-Cannon/FW Artillery list, myself, and a top-tier Warcon player (strong list, and probably the best actually player there).
That's pretty amazing to hear. I have a tourney in 2 weeks that I am bringing my Ynnari to. I keep getting tempted by the Riptide wing, but sadly it's a big investment for me (not only for the Riptides, but for BOTH books that have the Tau rules and the formation rules)
Would you say that the Riptides made a huge impact on your games, or would more bikes and possibly a USF be able to fill in? I know Riptides are amazing, but I'd like to stay 100% Aeldari
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I would think the intercepting deep striking units that stray a little to close to the yannari units which then get soul burst activated would be scary good.
Just came back from a 16 player ITC event... and man... my Ynnari were almost "feel bad" brutal. The event was a mix of some very meta/competitive lists, and some for fun players, but I ended up playing all "serious" gamers. Ended up coming in 2nd without any losses, because it was only three rounds so the other undefeated guy just rolled all of his opponents and was unreachable for over-all points.
I ran a Riptide Wing with Ion and EWO, two Archons with WWP, a Sword Wraithknight, two min Scat bikes, two min Kabalites, a Farseer, an Archon, and two Wraith Guard (one with Cannon, one with Scythe), plus a suicide Khymaera puppy.
The big take away I wanted to contribute to this thread was that against an army with Deep Strike... Interceptor/Soul Burst is a horrific demoralizing combo. In my game against a Skyhammer and the whole Shadowstrike Kill team, I turtled up, bubble wrapped the good stuff with bikes/kabalites, and used interceptor to focus down one Grav-unit. The way my two Warhosts were divided yielded me THREE soul-bursts off that kill alone.
It felt like I ended up playing more of my opponents turn then they did throughout the event. And even my game against Warcon would've been a tabling if we went another turn, as Basilius Cawl was all that was left.
I can't state enough for those here who haven't tried Ynnari yet... how almost impossibly good of an army it is. The tournament even had a CWE player, Forgeworld Knights, etc... and just the lack of Soulburst made a top-tier (or close) army look competitively terrible.
Top 3 ended up being a really ecclectic Coteaz/Thunderfire-Cannon/FW Artillery list, myself, and a top-tier Warcon player (strong list, and probably the best actually player there).
That's pretty amazing to hear. I have a tourney in 2 weeks that I am bringing my Ynnari to. I keep getting tempted by the Riptide wing, but sadly it's a big investment for me (not only for the Riptides, but for BOTH books that have the Tau rules and the formation rules)
Would you say that the Riptides made a huge impact on your games, or would more bikes and possibly a USF be able to fill in? I know Riptides are amazing, but I'd like to stay 100% Aeldari
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Without question the Riptides provided value, but it was disproportionate due to my pairings. I happened to face two deep-strike-centric armies, which meant Interceptor immediately undid them when paired with Soul Burst from the Ynnari units.
That said, their value beyond that was relatively insignificant. They're huge targets/distractions but in my last game they provided no kills. Durable, distractions are a value all their own, but a million more bikes would've done even more work, I suspect, versus most opponents.
Edit: As I played it, I would get two soul-bursts from units from the larger formation (which had seven units, thus the command benefit), and one unit could soul-burst from my second Warhost. So it wasn't three soul-bursts, period across my list, so much as, if the positioning of specific units from the specific detachments allowed, UP to three, in ideal circumstances, could.
My understanding was you get 1 soulburst per kill no matter how many detachments you have. Then when you have more than 7 units in the warhost that allows you to soulburst an extra unit per death.
rawne2510 wrote: My understanding was you get 1 soulburst per kill no matter how many detachments you have. Then when you have more than 7 units in the warhost that allows you to soulburst an extra unit per death.
Well if you take 2 Formations doesnt each formation get its benefit? Same thing
So if you take the Demi-Company to get free transports and you take a 2nd one, does the 2nd one not get free transports too?
It stats "if this detachment" so if I take 2 detachments, then Each one would get 1 Soulburst action.
So if i take 3 war hosts with 7 units each I can get 6 units soulbursting in 1 go??
Automatically Appended Next Post: or just 4 because each detachment gains a second soulburst for free
Automatically Appended Next Post: The free transport example would require 4 demi companies to do that with 2 auxilliares set up within 2 Gladius detachments. that is a different setup completely.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But I still don´t get how he got 3 soulbursts as I only count 12 units not 14
A unit dies. Pick ONE Ynnari unit within 7" to Soulburst. (Strength From Death rule) Now an additional unit FROM THAT SAME DETACHMENT may also Soulburst. (Reborn Host command benefit)
If the first unit you picked to Soulburst was from Host A, how the heck are allowed to pick the second unit for Host B? The second unit from Host B cannot Soulburst because another unit already did, and because it wasn't from Host B, no bonus is given. The COMMAND BENEFIT is allowed within the detachment.
Think of this scenario: Host A has 7+ units. Host B has LESS than 7 units If you have a units from both Hosts near a unit that is destroyed, what happens? If the Host B unit Soulbursts, does that allow the Host A unit to Soulburst? or Vice Versa? One of the Hosts does not meet the requirements, so a second unit cannot be chosen unless it is from the same Host that does meet the requirement Since the rules for SfD only normally allow 1 unit to Soulburst, Host A & B CANNOT Soulburst off the same kill, meaning a MAX of 2 Soulbursts.....EVER
Using the Gladius free transport bonus is a poor analogy because having 2 Demi Companies + Auxiliary combine into a SINGLE detachment made up of multiple detachments. 2 Reborn Warhosts are always 2 separate detachments.
Just to add a little the discussion: I have been playing the triumvirate formation in almost every game, specifically yrvaine + the visarch in a huge unit of Kymeara. It works wonderfully, it's stupidly tough against small arms fire and also Large guns, it does suffer against cancer guns but so does almost everything with a T value.
And my thought was: I originally didn't like Santic on yrvaine because of he lack of a ghost helm, but thinking about it, some of santic powers would be awesome on the unit. Hammerhand would make the visarch the proper Melee beast he should be, and sanctuary would be incredible, 3++ on yrvaine and 4++ on puppies? Yes please!
gummyofallbears wrote: Just to add a little the discussion: I have been playing the triumvirate formation in almost every game, specifically yrvaine + the visarch in a huge unit of Kymeara. It works wonderfully, it's stupidly tough against small arms fire and also Large guns, it does suffer against cancer guns but so does almost everything with a T value.
And my thought was: I originally didn't like Santic on yrvaine because of he lack of a ghost helm, but thinking about it, some of santic powers would be awesome on the unit. Hammerhand would make the visarch the proper Melee beast he should be, and sanctuary would be incredible, 3++ on yrvaine and 4++ on puppies? Yes please!
Add a Shadowseer to this for Hit & Run, more access to Sacntic (or Telepathy for Invisible Khymera) and yet another high Initiative set of attack (with Fleshbane, yay!)
gummyofallbears wrote: Just to add a little the discussion: I have been playing the triumvirate formation in almost every game, specifically yrvaine + the visarch in a huge unit of Kymeara. It works wonderfully, it's stupidly tough against small arms fire and also Large guns, it does suffer against cancer guns but so does almost everything with a T value.
And my thought was: I originally didn't like Santic on yrvaine because of he lack of a ghost helm, but thinking about it, some of santic powers would be awesome on the unit. Hammerhand would make the visarch the proper Melee beast he should be, and sanctuary would be incredible, 3++ on yrvaine and 4++ on puppies? Yes please!
Works even better if you ad Yvraine to a unit of warlocks! Basically double the units wounds and get lvl 4 yvraine easily. Rolling on sanctic with the warlocks works best - as when they die they just give yvraine another power and mastery level. Sanctic primarus totally sucks too if you aren't playing against daemons so if you get the power you want just roll on runes after and you lose nothing.
gummyofallbears wrote: Just to add a little the discussion: I have been playing the triumvirate formation in almost every game, specifically yrvaine + the visarch in a huge unit of Kymeara. It works wonderfully, it's stupidly tough against small arms fire and also Large guns, it does suffer against cancer guns but so does almost everything with a T value.
And my thought was: I originally didn't like Santic on yrvaine because of he lack of a ghost helm, but thinking about it, some of santic powers would be awesome on the unit. Hammerhand would make the visarch the proper Melee beast he should be, and sanctuary would be incredible, 3++ on yrvaine and 4++ on puppies? Yes please!
Works even better if you ad Yvraine to a unit of warlocks! Basically double the units wounds and get lvl 4 yvraine easily. Rolling on sanctic with the warlocks works best - as when they die they just give yvraine another power and mastery level. Sanctic primarus totally sucks too if you aren't playing against daemons so if you get the power you want just roll on runes after and you lose nothing.
I have run 3 games with my new beastpack - 12 Khymera, The Visarch, Yvraine, 2 Shadowseers, 2 Farseer on Jetbikes.... I have been able to pull off 3 first turn assaults using word of the phoenix. Not to mention this unit can hunker down and take wounds if it needs to..
I am playing again tonight and hopefully will have continued success with it. Been debating on splitting up the Eldar super friends and taking 2 units of 12 khymera each with a shadowseer and 2 farseers on jb... itd be quick and potentially would lock up a bunch of units, but it loses a lot of teeth and survivability so idk. Word of the phoneix with 12" movement... rocks so hard!
Glad to hear the beast pack has been doing so well. I think beasts are extremely underrated unit, especially in ynari where a soul burst can put them very far across the board. The idea of adding characters is intriguing but I wonder if yvaine/visarch are the best characters. Together they are 350 points. With the beast pack you are up to 470 which is 1/3-1/4 of your army. An autarch with a jetbike, laser lance and banshee mask clocks in at exactly 100 points. Against sv3+ or worst targets he is actually better than the visarch (visarch will not be getting rampage in a beast pack) He also doesn't slow down the pack. While he can not take wounds and regain them, he gives you reserve manipulation and leaves you with 50 more points to work with. And how many wounds are yvaine and visarch actually tanking? They more 6" so they will always be in the back of the pack unless you are moving very slowly. With the points saved by taking a autarch and farseer you could buy another khymera unit. Have the khymera tank wounds for the farseer/autarch and if you need to you can move and join the other khymera unit.
Caedes wrote: Just to add some in: I tried this out in a semi competitive game and it worked awsome.
5 WG /cannons, 1 shadowseer at lvl 2 with mask of secrets (take shriek and veil) and another character with good save to tank wounds. Yrvaine works awsome here. (The 4++ and EW) load them into a wave serpent. Drive up shooting as you go, or flat out to get there faster. Jump out, get within 12" of 2 units
Psychic phase
Shadowseer uses veil of tears for defense just in case. Then hits a unit with psychic shriek. (Target at -2ld) it should seriously mess up a unit. Yrvaine can hopefully finish off any survivors with rev shooting attacks. Shooting phase nuke unit the second with d cannons. Soulburst to get back in the serpent, then repeat. If you fail to get a soulburst you have veil protection, and yrvaine can tank saves passing offf with LOS to the WG, healing when they die. It's super effective fast and not horribly expensive.
The one thing to be careful about this is that the Shadowseer can't start the game in the Wave Serpant.
gummyofallbears wrote: Just to add a little the discussion: I have been playing the triumvirate formation in almost every game, specifically yrvaine + the visarch in a huge unit of Kymeara. It works wonderfully, it's stupidly tough against small arms fire and also Large guns, it does suffer against cancer guns but so does almost everything with a T value.
And my thought was: I originally didn't like Santic on yrvaine because of he lack of a ghost helm, but thinking about it, some of santic powers would be awesome on the unit. Hammerhand would make the visarch the proper Melee beast he should be, and sanctuary would be incredible, 3++ on yrvaine and 4++ on puppies? Yes please!
Works even better if you ad Yvraine to a unit of warlocks! Basically double the units wounds and get lvl 4 yvraine easily. Rolling on sanctic with the warlocks works best - as when they die they just give yvraine another power and mastery level. Sanctic primarus totally sucks too if you aren't playing against daemons so if you get the power you want just roll on runes after and you lose nothing.
I have run 3 games with my new beastpack - 12 Khymera, The Visarch, Yvraine, 2 Shadowseers, 2 Farseer on Jetbikes.... I have been able to pull off 3 first turn assaults using word of the phoenix. Not to mention this unit can hunker down and take wounds if it needs to..
I am playing again tonight and hopefully will have continued success with it. Been debating on splitting up the Eldar super friends and taking 2 units of 12 khymera each with a shadowseer and 2 farseers on jb... itd be quick and potentially would lock up a bunch of units, but it loses a lot of teeth and survivability so idk. Word of the phoneix with 12" movement... rocks so hard!
That is a great point. A really great point. I never really considered it BUT a unit of swooping hawks can potentially charge almost any unit on the table with this ability. An autarc and/or Baharoth along for the ride and you could potentially do some serious damage to a key shooting unit (think artillery). What would you arm them with?
Probably just give the autarch (banshee mask) and exarch a power weapon maybe a soulsnare or shard of arnis - hope you roll the furious charge warlord trait. Could be fun. would work good in an alpha strike list with uthwe strike force maybe.
Call me crazy but I just pull off those same word of the phoenix shenanigans with my sword and board WK....he is pretty good in assault from my personal experience
luke1705 wrote: Call me crazy but I just pull off those same word of the phoenix shenanigans with my sword and board WK....he is pretty good in assault from my personal experience
Indeed he is and much more potent - a 36 inch charge can be deployed against though. A 48 incher - that is just unavoidable. I've never run the WK with the reborn-warhost because I'm usually taking the Yncarne (just to be nice).
Galef wrote: This is how multiple Reborn Hosts works:
A unit dies. Pick ONE Ynnari unit within 7" to Soulburst. (Strength From Death rule)
Now an additional unit FROM THAT SAME DETACHMENT may also Soulburst. (Reborn Host command benefit)
If the first unit you picked to Soulburst was from Host A, how the heck are allowed to pick the second unit for Host B?
The second unit from Host B cannot Soulburst because another unit already did, and because it wasn't from Host B, no bonus is given.
The COMMAND BENEFIT is allowed within the detachment.
Think of this scenario: Host A has 7+ units. Host B has LESS than 7 units
If you have a units from both Hosts near a unit that is destroyed, what happens? If the Host B unit Soulbursts, does that allow the Host A unit to Soulburst? or Vice Versa?
One of the Hosts does not meet the requirements, so a second unit cannot be chosen unless it is from the same Host that does meet the requirement
Since the rules for SfD only normally allow 1 unit to Soulburst, Host A & B CANNOT Soulburst off the same kill, meaning a MAX of 2 Soulbursts.....EVER
Using the Gladius free transport bonus is a poor analogy because having 2 Demi Companies + Auxiliary combine into a SINGLE detachment made up of multiple detachments.
2 Reborn Warhosts are always 2 separate detachments.
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I agree with all of this. Over at the Dark City someone came up with an outlier. how would you rule?
from Dumpeal at the Dark City
"But if you choose a unit that is composed of model from several detachment for the first soulburst?
exemple:
warhost 1:
archon
3 reavers
5 wyches
(and more stuff irrelevant to the exemple)
Warhost 2
5 kabalites
5 scourges
(and more stuff irrelevant to the exemple)
-The archon is with the kabalite unit.
-every units is in 7'' to simplify the exemple
1- The ennemy kills the reavers.
2- You select your kabalite-archon unit to trigger it's SFD rule.
3- You activate the rule from warhost 1 and trigger an additionnal soulburst to the wyches.
4- You activate the rule from warhost 2 and trigger an additionnal soulburst to the scourge.
Action 3 is confined within the same detachment
Action 4 is confined within the same detachment
Very situational, but I don't see why it shouldn't work."
I see where the additional unit needs to be from the detachment that gives the bonus since command benefits are by detachment, but where did it say the additional needs to be from the same detachment the first soulburst?
Fhionnuisce wrote: I see where the additional unit needs to be from the detachment that gives the bonus since command benefits are by detachment, but where did it say the additional needs to be from the same detachment the first soulburst?
Detachment benefits do not acknowledge the existence of other Detachments. The rule even says if "the detachment" or "the reborn host" (I can't remember which, but either works) consists of 7+ units, than you may pick an addition unit to Soulburst. I am paraphrasing because I do not have my book with me.
Since the rule does not specifically provide an exception to the BRB rules for Command benefits (which says the rules only apply to units in the detachment) than we do not have permission to apply said rules to any units outside that detachment. I.e. both the first and second Soulburst must be from the same detachment, or the rule breaks down
As for units containing models from 2 Reborn hosts, that's simple. If an IC from Host A is joined to a unit from Host B, then that unit is from Host B for all rules purposes.
The IC becomes part of the unit form Host B and will only trigger the option for a second Soulburst in other units from Host B, even if units from Host A are present.
No. You can take Black Guardian units in the Reborn Host (to give them the Ynnari Faction) but the USF is not a detachment that is allowed in the Reborn Host.
Honestly, the USF is the best way to take BG units because they keep Battle Focus and get to deep strike turn 1. And since you have to be 9" away when they drop, you aren't abel to Soulburst with them anyway
kaintxu wrote: What I want is turn 1 bikes for alpha strike, so battle focus is useless for them but soul bursting would be great
Sadly there is no way to achieve this. You either get the T1 deep strike from the USF, or the ability to Soulburst from the Reborn Host But like, I said above, even if you could take a USF in the Reborn Host, you would not get to Soulburst on the turn they Deep Strike in, because the Webway Assault rule says you cannot place them within 9" of enemy models. You need to be within 7" of a unit that dies to Soulburst.
My idea is not to activate them when I will, but when my you it is killed. My plan was taking 2 groups of 3x3 scat bikes. If you kill a unit of 3, the other 2 units get to shoot at you, so kill 3 bikes, take 24S6 shots
With the DS I could make sure I take vehicles back or side and with that activate sould burst in things like my WK or other things
My idea is not to activate them when I will, but when my you it is killed. My plan was taking 2 groups of 3x3 scat bikes. If you kill a unit of 3, the other 2 units get to shoot at you, so kill 3 bikes, take 24S6 shots
With the DS I could make sure I take vehicles back or side and with that activate sould burst in things like my WK or other things
Most people first think of dropping in, killing a unit, then Soulbursting off that unit. Being outside 9" means you will not be within 7" to gain that Soulburst. That is what says you cannot. But it a moot point, since the USF cannot be taken in the Reborn Host, thus there is no way to give units in a USF the SfD rule.
You could take 3 Elite choice Black Gaurdian Windriders in the Reborn Host though, but they will not come in until Turn 2 at the earliest. If you are OK with that, than go for it. Getting the Souburst from your units being killed is a hella fun way to punish your opponent I would rather have my 24+ Str6 shots on the table turn 1 though
Been lurking reading this for a bit, really interested Galef on how your strategy works, I saw the lists you posted but want to understand better how you use your soulburst actions? Great stuff so far btw.
Cult of My Boy Blue wrote: Been lurking reading this for a bit, really interested Galef on how your strategy works, I saw the lists you posted but want to understand better how you use your soulburst actions? Great stuff so far btw.
So basically since Vypers do not ever get a Soulburst, putting them in an USF gives them much needed versatility. The rest of my list is in the Reborn Host (so those units get to Soulburst)
The plan is to drop the Vypers in on turn 1, within 18-19" of my Windriders. The Vypers try to get into Side Armour if possible (cuz rear armour shots are unlikely if the opponent doesn't move forward) or get the Vypers to be able to shoot at any MSU Marine units, or really any other unit that doesn't want AP2 pointed at it. The Windriders than move up next to the Vypers (so they are now within 6-7"). The Vypers shoot, the Windriders shoot, etc.
Now the opponent has a hard choice. Kill a bike unit, thereby setting off a Soulburst or 2 from other bike units near them. Or Kill the Vyper, which will be easier to kill than the bikes, but will set off 2 Soulbursts from the bikes. The Vypers have guaranteed AP2 and thus cannot be ignore If the Vypers die, I get to retaliate. If they live, they will earn their points worth from the drop and subsequent turns and will act as a permanent escort for the Windriders (as the fluff intends them to be). This tactic can work with War Walkers too, but it limits the overall movement of the group due to the WW not being able to move 12" or move flatout. And Vypers are cheaper
Worst case scenario, the opponent kills the bike units in a way that only grants 1 Soulburst, then once the bikes are dead, they kill the Vyper. But if the opponent has the fire power to do that in 1 shooting phase, tactics are irrelevant at that point
Cult of My Boy Blue wrote: Been lurking reading this for a bit, really interested Galef on how your strategy works, I saw the lists you posted but want to understand better how you use your soulburst actions? Great stuff so far btw.
So basically since Vypers do not ever get a Soulburst, putting them in an USF gives them much needed versatility.
The rest of my list is in the Reborn Host (so those units get to Soulburst)
The plan is to drop the Vypers in on turn 1, within 18-19" of my Windriders. The Vypers try to get into Side Armour if possible (cuz rear armour shots are unlikely if the opponent doesn't move forward) or get the Vypers to be able to shoot at any MSU Marine units, or really any other unit that doesn't want AP2 pointed at it.
The Windriders than move up next to the Vypers (so they are now within 6-7"). The Vypers shoot, the Windriders shoot, etc.
Now the opponent has a hard choice. Kill a bike unit, thereby setting off a Soulburst or 2 from other bike units near them. Or Kill the Vyper, which will be easier to kill than the bikes, but will set off 2 Soulbursts from the bikes. The Vypers have guaranteed AP2 and thus cannot be ignore
If the Vypers die, I get to retaliate. If they live, they will earn their points worth from the drop and subsequent turns and will act as a permanent escort for the Windriders (as the fluff intends them to be). This tactic can work with War Walkers too, but it limits the overall movement of the group due to the WW not being able to move 12" or move flatout. And Vypers are cheaper
Worst case scenario, the opponent kills the bike units in a way that only grants 1 Soulburst, then once the bikes are dead, they kill the Vyper. But if the opponent has the fire power to do that in 1 shooting phase, tactics are irrelevant at that point
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Great answer and explained very well, why not take two sets of Wraiths? with two archons? in the games you have played how are you using your Wraith Guard? Just go for the most potent enemy unit and wipe it? My unit is 5 scythes WG, archon with WWP, Shadow field, two shadow seers, having both the mask and armor to affect leaderships, looking for anything to use those leadership buffs for my shadowseer powers, its a point sink and means I am not running a Wraith knight, but looking for in game feedback as I don't get to play that often and usually when I do its a tourney!
Wraiths are great too, but they don't come in turn 1, so pairing them with a USF is tricky. You need an Autarch to -1 a reserve roll and keep one of the Vypers off the board.
In a recent game I took 5 D-scythe WG, and WWP Archon with Armout of Misery and a Shadowseer with Mask of Secrets. They dropping in front of St Celestine joined to a SM bike command unit with Grav. I tried Shriek first, but could not get enough wounds to get through Celestine's 4++ and FNP. I only managed to kill 1 of her side-kicks. But once I dropped the templates (4 total due to placement), I manage to get 19 hits, which blew through her and the entire bike unit. The best part was that she roll an 8 for her LD to come back to life. Because the Armour & Mask were giving her a -4LD, that was a fail, so she did not come back.
Galef wrote: Wraiths are great too, but they don't come in turn 1, so pairing them with a USF is tricky. You need an Autarch to -1 a reserve roll and keep one of the Vypers off the board.
In a recent game I took 5 D-scythe WG, and WWP Archon with Armout of Misery and a Shadowseer with Mask of Secrets.
They dropping in front of St Celestine joined to a SM bike command unit with Grav. I tried Shriek first, but could not get enough wounds to get through Celestine's 4++ and FNP. I only managed to kill 1 of her side-kicks.
But once I dropped the templates (4 total due to placement), I manage to get 19 hits, which blew through her and the entire bike unit.
The best part was that she roll an 8 for her LD to come back to life. Because the Armour & Mask were giving her a -4LD, that was a fail, so she did not come back.
Best 440pts in my list that game.
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Everytime I think about doing exactly this I think...... Tau Interceptor Fire. Thats why Tau are the worst. They ruin everything. lol
Seriously though, what are you doing tactically to prevent getting removed in the movement phase due to intercepting suits?
Fragile wrote: Tau kills a unit, others soul burst, getting to shoot.
Exactly. Remember that Intercept happens at the end of you movement phase. With Eldar mobility, that gives you plenty of time to get 2-3 Ynnari units in range of anything that just Webway'd in. And if Tau use their Intercept on a Vyper, who really just won that exchange? This is how that goes:
Step 1: Several single Vypers drop in Step 2: Windrider move in 7" to them Step 3: Tau intercept and kill Vypers Step 4: Scatterbikes get to Soulburst Step 5: You get to shoot again with the Scatterbikes in the shooting phase, ignoring any units that Intercepted because you know those units won't be able to shoot in the Tau turn Step 6: Profit
If you do the above right, the Tau will have a pretty crappy shooting phase because they got greedy with their Intercept and you killed things that didn't Intercept.
Galef wrote: Wraiths are great too, but they don't come in turn 1, so pairing them with a USF is tricky. You need an Autarch to -1 a reserve roll and keep one of the Vypers off the board.
In a recent game I took 5 D-scythe WG, and WWP Archon with Armout of Misery and a Shadowseer with Mask of Secrets.
They dropping in front of St Celestine joined to a SM bike command unit with Grav. I tried Shriek first, but could not get enough wounds to get through Celestine's 4++ and FNP. I only managed to kill 1 of her side-kicks.
But once I dropped the templates (4 total due to placement), I manage to get 19 hits, which blew through her and the entire bike unit.
The best part was that she roll an 8 for her LD to come back to life. Because the Armour & Mask were giving her a -4LD, that was a fail, so she did not come back.
Best 440pts in my list that game.
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How do the 2 relics effect the leadership? There is no model on the board within range to be effected. Asking out of curiosity rather than argument as not 100% sure how the relics interact with models that aren´t there.
Galef wrote: Wraiths are great too, but they don't come in turn 1, so pairing them with a USF is tricky. You need an Autarch to -1 a reserve roll and keep one of the Vypers off the board.
In a recent game I took 5 D-scythe WG, and WWP Archon with Armout of Misery and a Shadowseer with Mask of Secrets.
They dropping in front of St Celestine joined to a SM bike command unit with Grav. I tried Shriek first, but could not get enough wounds to get through Celestine's 4++ and FNP. I only managed to kill 1 of her side-kicks.
But once I dropped the templates (4 total due to placement), I manage to get 19 hits, which blew through her and the entire bike unit.
The best part was that she roll an 8 for her LD to come back to life. Because the Armour & Mask were giving her a -4LD, that was a fail, so she did not come back.
Best 440pts in my list that game.
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How do the 2 relics effect the leadership? There is no model on the board within range to be effected. Asking out of curiosity rather than argument as not 100% sure how the relics interact with models that aren´t there.
The Mask affects models within 12", the Armour affects units within 6". Celestine takes the LD test prior to being removed as a casualty, if she fails she is removed as normal, if passed place a counter for her to come back in her next turn.
So she was definitely on the board when she takes the LD test and since my unit was within 1" of her, she was definitely suffering -4LD from the Mask & Armour combined
For the Mask to work on Shriek though, I think the whole unit must be within 12". Had 1 model been out of range, it's LD could effectively cancel out the affect of the -2LD on the other models in the unit. But the Armour only needs 1 model in range for the whole unit to have -2LD.
rawne2510 wrote: Ok my understanding was that you place a marker when she dies and the leadership test was in the next turn.
That is what I thought too, but he had the rules and it only makes sense to take the LD before placing the counter. How could she take an LD test at all if she isn't on the table.
Galef wrote: For the Mask to work on Shriek though, I think the whole unit must be within 12". Had 1 model been out of range, it's LD could effectively cancel out the affect of the -2LD on the other models in the unit. But the Armour only needs 1 model in range for the whole unit to have -2LD.
Is there a definitive answer on which Ld value to use for shriek? I always thought majority Ld made more sense, in which case the mask only needs to cover half the unit.
Galef wrote: For the Mask to work on Shriek though, I think the whole unit must be within 12". Had 1 model been out of range, it's LD could effectively cancel out the affect of the -2LD on the other models in the unit. But the Armour only needs 1 model in range for the whole unit to have -2LD.
Is there a definitive answer on which Ld value to use for shriek? I always thought majority Ld made more sense, in which case the mask only needs to cover half the unit.
No there is no official answer. You only use the highest LD for LD tests, but since Shriek isn't one of those, it is up in the air. However, the vast, VAST majority of players insist on using the unit's highest LD, so I just roll with that rather than get into a discussion about it. Even though I feel that majority LD should be used in this situation, just like Toughness.
Galef wrote: For the Mask to work on Shriek though, I think the whole unit must be within 12". Had 1 model been out of range, it's LD could effectively cancel out the affect of the -2LD on the other models in the unit. But the Armour only needs 1 model in range for the whole unit to have -2LD.
Is there a definitive answer on which Ld value to use for shriek? I always thought majority Ld made more sense, in which case the mask only needs to cover half the unit.
No there is no official answer. You only use the highest LD for LD tests, but since Shriek isn't one of those, it is up in the air. However, the vast, VAST majority of players insist on using the unit's highest LD, so I just roll with that rather than get into a discussion about it. Even though I feel that majority LD should be used in this situation, just like Toughness.
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Given how important shriek is to many competitive lists I'm surprised ITC and Nova haven't included it in their FAQs or have they?
Galef wrote: For the Mask to work on Shriek though, I think the whole unit must be within 12". Had 1 model been out of range, it's LD could effectively cancel out the affect of the -2LD on the other models in the unit. But the Armour only needs 1 model in range for the whole unit to have -2LD.
Is there a definitive answer on which Ld value to use for shriek? I always thought majority Ld made more sense, in which case the mask only needs to cover half the unit.
No there is no official answer. You only use the highest LD for LD tests, but since Shriek isn't one of those, it is up in the air. However, the vast, VAST majority of players insist on using the unit's highest LD, so I just roll with that rather than get into a discussion about it. Even though I feel that majority LD should be used in this situation, just like Toughness.
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Given how important shriek is to many competitive lists I'm surprised ITC and Nova haven't included it in their FAQs or have they?
Klowny wrote: So I just checked the BRBFAQ, and I still dont have an answer to my question.
An archon with a shadow field is blessed with sanctuary. Is it possible to have a 1++?
I remember reading something somewhere that states this can never be the case but cant seem to find the ruling?
I believe the BRB states that saves can never be brought below 2+. That may be in reference to a particular type of save (like cover).
But even if this is not the case, a natural roll of '1' is always a failure anyway*, so it does not matter.
*except in cases where '6' is a auto-fail, such as characteristic tests.
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Maximum Save
Some models gain additional benefits from rules that may increase any of their saves by +1 or +2 or even more. However, no save (armour, cover or invulnerable) can ever be improved beyond 2+.
Hey guys, so I have a couple of basic questions. I play necrons, so having fragile models and the psychic phase are totally foreign to me.
What are the most potent spells/what are the best trees to roll on?
Are there different strategies the more psykers you have? I have eldrad, a shadowseer, farseer on a jetbike and the triumvarate so far, so there is a lot of different options for trees.
Does the -Ld strat work ok? I love the look of the incubi so I have been playing around with mini death star with them, eldrad, yvraine, the visarch, a shadowseer and an autarch. Between all three factions there are numerous different -Ld weapons/psychic abilities, and enough psykers to buff the incubi to stay reasonably protected, as well as using yvraine and the visarch to tank with their wound regen?
What do people think of starweavers?
I adore the models, best looking jetbikes IMO, but...
They are very expensive, 1 with a zepherglaive and haywire cannon is almost the same cost 3 scat bikes, and as a result they are not that optimal.
Would a big squad of them with a farseer on a jetbike be effective in an army? Or is there anyway to get the blades of fate in a Warhost?
With 8th ed coming out soon I don't want to build a super competitive army yet and what drew me to playing ynnari in the first place is loving the harlies/DE models, and now there is a way to combine them, so I'm just building/painting what I like the look of so far.
I just got back from a 80 person team tournament (4 per team), we finished third and i went undefeated 4-0-1. ETC rules so full strength D allowed and multiple wraithknights allowed if they have different weapon loadouts (most the other eldar went this route)
This was my list briefly
jetseer/autarch on jetbike
6x3 windriders
3x3 black guardian windriders
3x1 D artillery
ulthwe strikeforce 4x3 windriders
First game was vs a lions blade with a riptide wing, i went second and was doing very badly on maelstrum but managed a 10-10 draw thanks to killpoints.
Second game was vs a more fluffy type guard player with no tanks, tabled him in 4 turns.
Third game was against the guys who won the tournament and really good players including a top LVO finisher as team captain . There ynarri player rolled with double knight and 6 units of warp spiders. I castled up basically out of his range most the game, killed his melee knight first turn, and his reserves came in slowly so i was able to focus each element down individually, while mainting a bubble wrap of bikes around my knight not allowing the spiders a spot to land and even engage my knight. I ended up tabling the guy in the 5th round.
Fourth round was vs a guy named logan who does podcasts in our area (ontario). Another good player, he had a surge, riptide wing, couple skyrays, couple broadsides in a bunker. I went first and we basically spent the first coule turns trying to avoid having a big unit wiped out by the opposing forces D weapons. Eventually i won a combat with my knight vs a culuxis assasin that left me exposed and he vaped my knight out and i thought it was over. i battled back and used my mobility to stay alive, we almost ran out of time and agreed to call it after 5, and i just had to many bikes left and took 3 of the 4 end of game onbjectives (while contesting the fourth), and i took the game down 24-21.
My final game was vs a salamanders army who admitidly basically took one for his team vs me because none of the other lists on his squad liked the matchup vs me. Great guy and player, but just overmatched and i basically used his own drops pods in my deployment zone to constantly trigger soulburts and i tabled him on turn 5.
Ended up with 82/100 battle points, we also had the highest painted score but cant win both the third place prize and best painted prize.
Loved the nature of this event and we had to submit lists only 1 week after the ynarri book was released so there was actually a ton of eldar variety there, but i really felt i had the best eldar list there and proved it on the table. It was nice to not have any established net lists to draw from and to make a new list for once.
I played in an RTT last weekend ans took the Yncarne. I was underwhelmed. He beats up weak units just fine, but can't really stand up to big baddies. Doubt I'll be taking him competitvely again.
With the release of the brilliant Gathering Storm books I've decided to return to 40k after a short break and enter a few local competitions. So I have a few thoughts I would like your opinions on. The local meta will be hardcore Magnus / daemon summoning, Crons, Nids with G.S.C, Tau with Riptide group, and a few SM. We will be playing I.T.C rules most of the time I think.
When playing C.E previously I had great success with Warp Hunters. So in your opinion is it worth allying in a normal C.E cad? I see them, when guided as a great way of deleting Grounded Magnus, Heralds, Cron spiders, Riptides etc. Perhaps in a VSG bubble to protect from Tau guns, Magnus D beams etc. Perhaps even a Culexus close by to protect from spells. A C.E cad could also give 2 extra HQs such as a guide Farseer and an Autarch, a couple of Obj sec. bike units. Also a Skathach Wk with Deathshrouds would seem, on paper at least, a great counter to many of the troops in this meta. Do you guys agree? Or is a Soul bursting Wk with sword and board much better?
Many thanks for your help in advance, also any tips or tactics would greatly be appreciated.
Yes it is worth taking an Eldar CAD alongside a Reborn Host.
There are just so many good units that cannot be taken as Ynnari.
I am a big fan of the Inferno Lance WK, Hornets and either a Landing Pad or Void Shield Generator. None are allowed in a Reborn host.
Reborn Host + Eldar CAD seems to be the most competitive way to exploit all the best the Aeldari have to offer.
Yes I do like the Inferno lances, and with that many shots it could help take down fliers too. I just think in my particular meta, the ignore cover and shred maybe more useful especially with large numbers of troops with 4+ saves or invuns. I do like the Warp Hunter due to it's reach and not needing l.o.s which could help vs Riptides. I was thinking min Eldar cad 1-2 W. Hunters and then a Reborn host, ideally with a deep striking W.G bomb but it might be tricky to get it all in. I'll have a play around with it and see what I can come up with.
Galef wrote: Yes it is worth taking an Eldar CAD alongside a Reborn Host.
There are just so many good units that cannot be taken as Ynnari.
I am a big fan of the Inferno Lance WK, Hornets and either a Landing Pad or Void Shield Generator. None are allowed in a Reborn host.
Reborn Host + Eldar CAD seems to be the most competitive way to exploit all the best the Aeldari have to offer.
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According to you perhaps (in regards to what is the most competitive way to play Aeldari), i think its far to early to make that kind of bold statement. I posted my results from a ITC major tourney on the previous page, i certainly didnt need a CAD to go 4-0-1. Strength from Death is the most powerful rule in 40k, and you cant exploit it in a CAD.
Yea Pyrhus you did really well! I do take your point. My pairings will differ a little from yours and I think including things like Warp Hunters with L.O.S ignoring D weapons with a longish reach could help force things like Riptides to move from their spots of comfort on the field and come out and play - making it easier for jetbikes etc to get at them. Also I could take out the Cron Spiders/ W.C generators early on to minimise their influence. The Fw Wk would be handy for horde control but I have yet to decide if it's better than a soul bursting sword board Wk.
What do you guys think of using a Lynx as a possible counter to flying MCs/ Magnus? (Itc rules for ranged D apply) It's good for a lot of other things too of course.
Fair points. I know i always brought a warp hunter previous to this new book coming out to my games, was always a huge fire magnet and had tons of utility with the barrage weapon on things outside LOS as you said.
Just some of the other stuff Galef had mentioned i dont think are going to be considered top tier for eldar going forward. the VSG being affected by grav per the FAQ really limits its value to me, the only time i bring my skyshield is when im bringing my revenant titan (and only in Apoc). Eldar are about mobility.
Even hornets which i also used almost every game previously, are just outclassed now by frankly scat bikes which can take advantage of strength from death. Without the hornets though my list is weak in regards to AP2 weapons, ive been thinking of how and where i could mix in some shurikan cannons instead to fill that role, prolly on some of the black guardian windriders as the limited range on them wont be asmuch of a factor when i can no scatter deepstrike.
Yea you are right about them being fire magnets - but I would also use them as bait in a trap when playing against the drop pod type lists, which would probably work even better now with the sfd rule. I also think having a back field presence is handy to sit on objectives and also force your opponent to move. D also helps with fnp which seems to be everywhere these days and I know I will be facing 3 cron armies plus Tau Riptides.
I have been out of the 40k loop for a while - I was told the FAQ said that the VSG were unaffected by grav, did that actually mean the shots just pass straight through them? Though I will only face maybe one grav list so perhaps not too much of a worry.
I agree with what you are saying about how good the scat bikes are now but yes AP2 is certainly needed. I guess it depends on what you intend to do with black guardians as they come in. If it's to pop light vehicles- perhaps the scatter laser's extra shot is more useful? If AP2 is needed then maybe vypers dropping in or even WW - at least with battle focus they can move after they shoot even in deep strike?
Are stock wraith cannon knights possibly better in ynnari or at least a good option there. Soul bursting would allow you to double tap with the D unlike the restrictions a sword and board faces based on the faq.
I realise D is gone from the game, but now IC's cant join units the WWP wraithguard double tap is gone.
Their guns will be strong, but do you think they will be worth the investment this edition? I know its all speculation at this point, but do you think removing their precision deep strike mobility will hamper them?
Klowny wrote: I realise D is gone from the game, but now IC's cant join units the WWP wraithguard double tap is gone.
Their guns will be strong, but do you think they will be worth the investment this edition? I know its all speculation at this point, but do you think removing their precision deep strike mobility will hamper them?
It might still work. Depends on the rules for Webway Portals.
Klowny wrote: I realise D is gone from the game, but now IC's cant join units the WWP wraithguard double tap is gone.
Their guns will be strong, but do you think they will be worth the investment this edition? I know its all speculation at this point, but do you think removing their precision deep strike mobility will hamper them?
It might still work. Depends on the rules for Webway Portals.
I'm almost positive that WWPs will work similarly to the Trygon Tunnel rule. Character pops out of WWP, followed by a unit of your choice within 3"
Distort weapons are likely going to do multiple damage, or even Mortal wounds.
Wraithguard are also likely to have 2 wounds.
So yeah, I think they'll be worth it in this edition.
Klowny wrote: I realise D is gone from the game, but now IC's cant join units the WWP wraithguard double tap is gone.
Their guns will be strong, but do you think they will be worth the investment this edition? I know its all speculation at this point, but do you think removing their precision deep strike mobility will hamper them?
It might still work. Depends on the rules for Webway Portals.
I'm almost positive that WWPs will work similarly to the Trygon Tunnel rule. Character pops out of WWP, followed by a unit of your choice within 3"
Distort weapons are likely going to do multiple damage, or even Mortal wounds.
Wraithguard are also likely to have 2 wounds.
So yeah, I think they'll be worth it in this edition.
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Agree, now that the trygon's rule has come out, can see something similar for the WWP.
With the removal of formations, and the warhost only having a few HQ slots, I feel ynnari have been given a slight buff. The fact the HQ slot was hotly contested meant double warhosts/severely limited options. Now with the ability to bring multiple detachments, gives us more choices/options for combo's.
Also, with the changes to vehicles, and CC now being much more lethal, do we reckon that troupe's in starweavers be more prominent? Its hard to realistically think about them in 7th as scatbikes are so powerful, but if they have been scaled down in 8th, troupe's look like a good alternative. While Initiative is gone, they should still be able to get the charge off, and their CC punch coupled with however SfD works now in regards to CC means they could be an efficient CC threat that ynnari was lacking in 7th.
Klowny wrote: I realise D is gone from the game, but now IC's cant join units the WWP wraithguard double tap is gone.
Their guns will be strong, but do you think they will be worth the investment this edition? I know its all speculation at this point, but do you think removing their precision deep strike mobility will hamper them?
It might still work. Depends on the rules for Webway Portals.
I'm almost positive that WWPs will work similarly to the Trygon Tunnel rule. Character pops out of WWP, followed by a unit of your choice within 3"
Distort weapons are likely going to do multiple damage, or even Mortal wounds.
Wraithguard are also likely to have 2 wounds.
So yeah, I think they'll be worth it in this edition.
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WWP will work probably only for units within the detach of that IC who has it... so only DE units.
Should we start a new thread for 8th edition Ynnari? Skimming through the leaked rules, I've found some neat new synergies that I would like to discuss.
and Purge Soul. Yvraine's fixed warlord trait gives that unit a 14" Strength from Death radius, so it activates when pretty much anything dies on its side of the board. Other players suggested that I bring an Archon w/a 
