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 LValx wrote:

also the vast majority of competitive players take HBC over Ion due to volume of fire and better TAC.

I agree will everything else you mentioned in your post, but it has been my experience both in real life and scanning through loads of online Tau army lists that the HBC is NOT the choice of competitive players. On paper, it would be my first, but then you realize the following:

-HBC is only better than the Ion if you Nova charge it
-Nova's are better used for 3++ or Ripple fire
-the Ion doesn't really need to Nova'd to be good, thus freeing up the Nova for the above
-the majority of other units in a Tau list have volume of fire
-HBC while Nova'd is an increased chance of Gets Hot! rolls (statistically you should roll two 1s per shooting)

Then you see why the vast majority of competitive players are actually taking Ion.
And that goes double for lists using Eldar + Riptide wing. Eldar have loads of Str6 shots already, so the HBC does not add much. Eldar do not have many high strength/ low AP large blast weapons. Therefore, the Ion cannon becomes the best choice to take alongside Eldar

But I digress. I agree with all your points about Deep Striking WG. I have used this tactic several times on the same opponent who runs 3+ Riptides. It is not that hard to find a spot that is out of LoS to all but 1 Riptide (the one you drop next to) and in cover. I once did so outside of cover because all other spots were visable to the other Riptides, but my Archon was able to pass most of his saves. He eventually rolled a '1' and was Insta-killed along with 1 WG, but the other 4 were able to vaporize him afterwards. And this was before Ynnari.

-

fresus wrote:
Don't forget mirror of minds affects a single model, not a unit. An infinite loop will only kill a single model.
It's still pretty good against some MC/GMC (especially the Tau ones that have a low Ld), but it's not as versatile as psychic shriek.

Do it repeat based on the LD check or causing a unsaved wound?

How were you tanking wounds on the Archon out of deep-strike? The way 40mm bases surround the 25mm base, means that you'd lose two Wraith-Guard before he even starts making saves.

Well you guys are lucky in your area then. Here - everytime Simone tries to deepstrike next to Tau - they get gone very fast. Wwp or not. If your local meta supports it though by all means it's a badass idea. Dropping in nuking leadership then attacking it along side a bunch of D shots to boot ... scary.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
How were you tanking wounds on the Archon out of deep-strike? The way 40mm bases surround the 25mm base, means that you'd lose two Wraith-Guard before he even starts making saves.

Does the Archeon have to be the first model placed??

Any model from the unit can be placed first.

WOW.... Mind = BLOWN.

I didn't realize this, assuming as the Archon was the one granting Deepstrike, that is must be happening off of him.

Suddenly that 2+ save armor is looking valid.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
WOW.... Mind = BLOWN.

I didn't realize this, assuming as the Archon was the one granting Deepstrike, that is must be happening off of him.

Suddenly that 2+ save armor is looking valid.

2+ Invulnerable save actually. But yeah, this is the best way to prevent dropping in next to Riptides and getting removed before you even get to shoot.
The only downside is when the Archon fails the save, he usually dies because he is only T3. If he somehow survives (like if the Riptide shot with the Str5 Smart missles first) than the Invul is lost for the rest of the game.
It is still worth it and draws more than 1 Riptides worth of fire. If you are confident that you'll either roll well with the 2++ or cover, you could place them in view of severall Riptides, drawing out their fire. Then the WG kill one of them, Soulburst to shoot another unit and any surviving Riptides that Intercepted can be ignored this turn.

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 Galef wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
WOW.... Mind = BLOWN.

I didn't realize this, assuming as the Archon was the one granting Deepstrike, that is must be happening off of him.

Suddenly that 2+ save armor is looking valid.

2+ Invulnerable save actually. But yeah, this is the best way to prevent dropping in next to Riptides and getting removed before you even get to shoot.
the only downside is when the Archon fails the save, he usually dies because he is only T3. If he somehow survives (like if the Riptide shot with the Str5 Smart missles first) than the Invul is lost for the rest of the game.
It is still worth is and draws more than 1 Riptides worth of fire. If you are confident that you'll either roll well with the 2++ or cover, you could place them in view of all Riptides, drawing out the fir from several of them. Then the WG kill one of them, Soulburst to shoot on other and any surviving Riptides that Intercepted can be ignored this turn.

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Well, I tend to roll with at least one Farseer rolling on Fates, so there is a somewhat fair chance of that being a 2++, rerollable... which I imagine will tend to absorb a fair bit of fire.

Seriously though... you've got me rethinking a lot of nuance as I genuinely believed the Archon needed to be at the center of said deepstrike.

It makes sense for him to be in the middle it you have D-scythes, but he doesn't have to be.

Hey folks, got my first game in with the new Aeldari this past weekend. Very fun to play - the look of dismay on your opponent's face when you SfD on their turn is without parallel.

I am primarily a Harlequin player, so I wanted to play something that would allow the clowns to really benefit from the new detachment. I ended up getting teamed up with another player (due to lack of tables at our local GW) in a 3000 point game against a Blood Angels player. My teammate was playing Genestealer Cult, which made for kind of an amusing team. We each had a 1500 point force vs. the BA player's 3000 point army. Our opponent's list was pretty suboptimal so I can't draw a lot of conclusions from the game itself, but I did get a pretty good feel for how a melee Aeldari force could work.

First, my list:

Yvraine

Shadowseer (lv 1, Mask of Secrets, Haywire Grenade)

Wraithblades x 10 (ghost axe, shield)

Harlequin Troupe x 6
- Starweaver
- Caress x 6

Harlequin Troupe x 6
- Starweaver
- Kiss x 5
- Cegorach's Rose and Haywire Grenade on Troupe Master

Harlequin Troupe x 6
- Starweaver
- Embrace x 5
- Hungering Blade and Haywire Grenade on TM

Windriders x 3
-Scatter Lasers

Windriders x 3
-Scatter Lasers

War Walker w/Dual Bright Lance

Basically, the Wraithblades, Yvraine and the Shadowseer joined up to form a death star. Yvraine rolled on Sanctic (which is great for her in this unit) and got Sanctuary and Purge Soul. Yvraine's fixed warlord trait gives that unit a 14" Strength from Death radius, so it activates when pretty much anything dies on its side of the board. Other players suggested that I bring an Archon w/a WWP to drop that unit downfield, but I found that it was actually quite fast on foot, and I never felt like I needed it. The Shadowseer was there to cast Veil and to give the unit Hit and Run (which helps a lot, as the 'Blades rely on that Rage bonus to really do some damage).

My teammate in this game did not contribute a great deal - he was running a mech GSC force, which missed a lot with their BS3 Leman Russ, Chimera and Sentinel shots. In essence, it was really a Guard force with a few GSC units. I think his total contribution was killing a Rhino and the Tac Squad that was riding it, and killing a single unit of Terminators with a Purestrain unit after my Harlequins wrecked their Land Raider. Thus, it was basically Aeldari versus a 3000 point Blood Angels force for must of the game, and he was almost tabled by the end of Turn 4 (when we had to call it as the shop was closing).

As mentioned above, our opponent's list was pretty bad, so it is hard to draw a lot of conclusions, but here are a few of my thoughts:

The Yvraine-Blade star did work. It got pounded, including by a podded Furioso on the first turn which managed to wipe out five 5 Blades before I took it down in combat. Brutal opening which had me sweating at the end of the first turn! Yet, the Yvraine star went on to survive the entire game, shrugging off an absurd amount of firepower and killing mutiple units in combat. Having a unit like this with mxed Initiative values is a huge plus, too, as under the new FAQ it allows you to pull off a really fun trick: finishing off an enemy unit with the High I characters, then charge into another combat with all the Wraithblades' I1 attacks, potentially wiping 2 units per turn. I also had Sanctuary up on this unit for most of the game. T6 with a 3++ is a hard nut to crack!

The Caress Troupe and the Embrace Troupe were all stars, but the Kiss Troupe was a disappointment. Caresses are amazing, as always, allowing me to wreck a Land Raider in a single round of combat. The Embraces were also fantastic, allowing me to wipe a bike squad at the I10 step.

The Embrace's stock has definitely risen, in my opinion, if you run it in a Reborn Warhost. You can charge a vehicle with the Embrace (like, say, an enemy transport), wreck it with the hammer of wrath attacks, and then charge the disembarking passengers and still have all of the unit's regular attacks. Brutal . I like to have a Haywire Grenade on the Troupe Masters (except for the Caress TM, for whom it is kind of redundant) so that I can finish any vehicles off that are left on 1 HP, then SfD to charge into then next unit. I will probably run a very similar list next time, except cutting out the Kiss Troupers and switching over to purely Caresses and Embraces (maybe 3~ of each in each squad) and see if I like that better.

Using Strength from Death to activate Scatrider shooting, even with just a 3 bike unit, feels almost unfair. I kept the bikes behind my main battle line, and advanced them along with the rest of the army, so they got to fire on my opponent's turn quite a bit. They started out with both units within 7" of the War Walker, which was basically just there to give my opponent a tempting target (as well as a little extra anti-tank) that would allow me to activate SfD. I liked it quite a bit, and would definitely consider putting a few of them in a USF at higher point levels.

Finally, I was very pleased with Yvraine. She seems pretty expensive, but she synced up really well with the 'Blades, and having a 14" radius for SfD makes it a lot easier to keep them moving up the board. Her extra psychic dice came in very handy (although I got quite lucky and rolled a 5 or 6 almost every turn). I was basically able to give my teammate all of the psychic dice from the regular D6 (he was summoning), just keeping the Warp Charge generated by my own Psykers, and felt like I had plenty of dice to get off a power every turn. She is no slouch in combat either, IDing a couple of BA characters. I wish her weapon was AP2, but oh well, that's what the Wraithblades are for.

Overall, I was very happy with the list. I'd be interested to hear how others who have tried out Harlequins in a Reborn Warhost have fared.

So... here's a question as I am really min-maxing my list and trying to squeeze in everything i'd like to...

If I have to, for points, drop one Wraithguard unit down to Cannons instead of D-scythes, and without a WWP Archon... are they even worth taking?

Foot-slogging with the 12" shot seems pretty mediocre, but I don't know what to do with the 150pts otherwise. I'm already using every Scat-bike I own at present, and have no more HQ slots free to play with.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
So... here's a question as I am really min-maxing my list and trying to squeeze in everything i'd like to...

If I have to, for points, drop one Wraithguard unit down to Cannons instead of D-scythes, and without a WWP Archon... are they even worth taking?

Foot-slogging with the 12" shot seems pretty mediocre, but I don't know what to do with the 150pts otherwise. I'm already using every Scat-bike I own at present, and have no more HQ slots free to play with.

Unless you have a Shadowseer with them casting Veil of Tears, I really don't see any point in footslogging WG.

I also just thought of a fun way to get the most of WWP D-Scythe WG. If you take a Shadowseer with Shriek, drop in next to 2 units and the Shriek kills one of the units, instead or using the Soulburst to shoot at the other unit. you could move instead, spreading out the models to get all 5 template onto the unit when your normal shooting comes around.
This is a good idea when there are only 2 units close enough. If there are 3 units, or Shriek fails to kill the whole unit, then Soulburst to shoot again is a good idea.

-

I realize this might be better suited for YMDC... but I could make it work, and provide an Archon with WWP IF I could take an Allied Ynnari detachment.

Can Ynnari even take CADs and Allied detachments???

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I realize this might be better suited for YMDC... but I could make it work, and provide an Archon with WWP IF I could take an Allied Ynnari detachment.

Can Ynnari even take CADs and Allied detachments???

No, sadly.

It needs to be a reborn warhost or one of the Ynari formations.

 gummyofallbears wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I realize this might be better suited for YMDC... but I could make it work, and provide an Archon with WWP IF I could take an Allied Ynnari detachment.

Can Ynnari even take CADs and Allied detachments???

No, sadly.

It needs to be a reborn warhost or one of the Ynari formations.

And this is because there are no "natural" Ynnari Troops to fill Allied and CADs. Only the Ynnari Formations and the Reborn Warhost makes units have the Ynnari faction
At this point, I am seeing the majority of Ynnari lists being double Reborn Warhost.

Fragile wrote:

fresus wrote:
Don't forget mirror of minds affects a single model, not a unit. An infinite loop will only kill a single model.
It's still pretty good against some MC/GMC (especially the Tau ones that have a low Ld), but it's not as versatile as psychic shriek.

Do it repeat based on the LD check or causing a unsaved wound?

Both "models" roll a D6 and add their Leadership. If there is a tie, or the Shadowseer wins, target model suffers a Wound. Repeat until target model dies or wins. If you knock the Leadership low enough, then the Shadowseer cannot lose and you either waste time rolling or just remove the model as a casualty.

 Galef wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I realize this might be better suited for YMDC... but I could make it work, and provide an Archon with WWP IF I could take an Allied Ynnari detachment.

Can Ynnari even take CADs and Allied detachments???

No, sadly.

It needs to be a reborn warhost or one of the Ynari formations.

And this is because there are no "natural" Ynnari Troops to fill Allied and CADs. Only the Ynnari Formations and the Reborn Warhost makes units have the Ynnari faction
At this point, I am seeing the majority of Ynnari lists being double Reborn Warhost.

Oh, I absolutely would have. Double Warhost is easy to do thanks to the best troops in the game, and desirable HQ slots. I just could not make the points and was hoping to eek something out.

 Galef wrote:

 LValx wrote:

also the vast majority of competitive players take HBC over Ion due to volume of fire and better TAC.

I agree will everything else you mentioned in your post, but it has been my experience both in real life and scanning through loads of online Tau army lists that the HBC is NOT the choice of competitive players. On paper, it would be my first, but then you realize the following:

-HBC is only better than the Ion if you Nova charge it
-Nova's are better used for 3++ or Ripple fire
-the Ion doesn't really need to Nova'd to be good, thus freeing up the Nova for the above
-the majority of other units in a Tau list have volume of fire
-HBC while Nova'd is an increased chance of Gets Hot! rolls (statistically you should roll two 1s per shooting)

Then you see why the vast majority of competitive players are actually taking Ion.
And that goes double for lists using Eldar + Riptide wing. Eldar have loads of Str6 shots already, so the HBC does not add much. Eldar do not have many high strength/ low AP large blast weapons. Therefore, the Ion cannon becomes the best choice to take alongside Eldar

But I digress. I agree with all your points about Deep Striking WG. I have used this tactic several times on the same opponent who runs 3+ Riptides. It is not that hard to find a spot that is out of LoS to all but 1 Riptide (the one you drop next to) and in cover. I once did so outside of cover because all other spots were visable to the other Riptides, but my Archon was able to pass most of his saves. He eventually rolled a '1' and was Insta-killed along with 1 WG, but the other 4 were able to vaporize him afterwards. And this was before Ynnari.

-

All true but worth pointing out that if the Tau player is taking a Riptide Wing, there's a decent chance that he may also take a Drone Net (which grants all the drones Interceptor as well). So be careful about what "cover" you think you have. But it is true that the riptides with majority AP 4 won't really matter (because truly, the HBC are far superior to the ion cannon). But you'll still have a ton of saves to make and possibly ignores cover rends to worry about. Definitely pray for the 2++ to work well and make judicious use of LOS if you can take your 3+ save

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
So... here's a question as I am really min-maxing my list and trying to squeeze in everything i'd like to...

If I have to, for points, drop one Wraithguard unit down to Cannons instead of D-scythes, and without a WWP Archon... are they even worth taking?

Foot-slogging with the 12" shot seems pretty mediocre, but I don't know what to do with the 150pts otherwise. I'm already using every Scat-bike I own at present, and have no more HQ slots free to play with.

If you buy a raider as a FA option then turn 1 jump them in a turbo boost 24" across the table into your opponents deployment zone they are scary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 luke1705 wrote:


All true but worth pointing out that if the Tau player is taking a Riptide Wing, there's a decent chance that he may also take a Drone Net (which grants all the drones Interceptor as well). So be careful about what "cover" you think you have. But it is true that the riptides with majority AP 4 won't really matter (because truly, the HBC are far superior to the ion cannon). But you'll still have a ton of saves to make and possibly ignores cover rends to worry about. Definitely pray for the 2++ to work well and make judicious use of LOS if you can take your 3+ save

The HBC is only good when being used with skyfire and interceptor on FMC and flyers. Otherwise the Ion cannon is far superior in all other aspects with Str 8 large blasts at AP2 usually ID on most models in game.

If a Ynari unit contains both Ynari and non-Ynari ICs (farseer from a CAD), can Ynari models from that unit still benefit from SfD?

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
If a Ynari unit contains both Ynari and non-Ynari ICs (farseer from a CAD), can Ynari models from that unit still benefit from SfD?

No. SfD specifically states that units that contain all models with this rule get to Soulburst.

 Galef wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
WOW.... Mind = BLOWN.

I didn't realize this, assuming as the Archon was the one granting Deepstrike, that is must be happening off of him.

Suddenly that 2+ save armor is looking valid.

2+ Invulnerable save actually. But yeah, this is the best way to prevent dropping in next to Riptides and getting removed before you even get to shoot.
The only downside is when the Archon fails the save, he usually dies because he is only T3. If he somehow survives (like if the Riptide shot with the Str5 Smart missles first) than the Invul is lost for the rest of the game.
It is still worth it and draws more than 1 Riptides worth of fire. If you are confident that you'll either roll well with the 2++ or cover, you could place them in view of severall Riptides, drawing out their fire. Then the WG kill one of them, Soulburst to shoot another unit and any surviving Riptides that Intercepted can be ignored this turn.

-

Yes, but critically, and I didn't realize this until just recently: The shadowfield is not gone the first time you fail it, it's gone after any phase where you took one or more wounds from it.

Doesn't really help vs Iontides or other S6+ stuff, but vs mass S5 like most of the tau small arms, it's a BIG deal to get the full shooting phase's oomph out of the Shadowfield.

 rawne2510 wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:


All true but worth pointing out that if the Tau player is taking a Riptide Wing, there's a decent chance that he may also take a Drone Net (which grants all the drones Interceptor as well). So be careful about what "cover" you think you have. But it is true that the riptides with majority AP 4 won't really matter (because truly, the HBC are far superior to the ion cannon). But you'll still have a ton of saves to make and possibly ignores cover rends to worry about. Definitely pray for the 2++ to work well and make judicious use of LOS if you can take your 3+ save

The HBC is only good when being used with skyfire and interceptor on FMC and flyers. Otherwise the Ion cannon is far superior in all other aspects with Str 8 large blasts at AP2 usually ID on most models in game.

Far superior? With a large blast you usually max out at 5 hits IF you don't scatter. Let's say you also spent 2 ML to ignore cover. So yeah you've got a nice pie plate that probably killed 4 models (still have to wound). That's best-case scenario. Or you got lucky and got one pen (unlikely as it's no better than a standard missile launcher, which can scatter easily)

With HBC you can easily get 10 hits, so say 2 rends and probably 2 failures to wound, but 6 more AP 4 wounds. If you're ignoring cover, it's only worse against 2+ saves (and even then only by 1 on average)

TLDR: HBC gets more wounds on average, gets more possible wounds, is better against vehicles, flyers and literally anything except 2+ armor when you use ignores cover AND score a direct hit on scatter. If that's not the definition of "better in every way", you'll have to explain to me what is. T4 multi wound models are a lot less common nowadays because of the advent of a ton of str 8+ shooting, so your dream scenario hardly ever happens. And oh how I wish it did. I miss my paladins

The tournament scene just doesn´t support you claims that the HBC is better.

Using your nova to boost the 12 shots means you aren´t allowing yourself the option of other support where as the Ion cannon does.

Don´t forget if I nova the Ion cannon I get Str 9 ordanance so mush better chance of Penetrating vehicles and I have a chance of blowing it up. The HBC has no hope of doing that.

Your assessment of the burst cannon getting more wounds means you are using ML to buff BS and then ignoring cover so you are now using 4 ML to the 2 ML the ion cannon is using.

You don´t get to buff your Inv or fire the support weapon twice or boost your jet pack movement because you want to gain the rending option. If you do choose something else then the TBC is just worse again.

I reiterate the only reason competative players put a TBC in a riptide wing is to improve anti flyer capability

 rawne2510 wrote:
The tournament scene just doesn´t support you claims that the HBC is better.

What are you basing that on? Here's a recent ITC result for an example https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/01/25/the-goldensprue-cup-gt-aftermath/

There were 3 riptide wings in the top 8 and every single one of the riptides (10 total) ran a HBC.

 rawne2510 wrote:

Spoiler:

The tournament scene just doesn´t support you claims that the HBC is better.

Using your nova to boost the 12 shots means you aren´t allowing yourself the option of other support where as the Ion cannon does.

Don´t forget if I nova the Ion cannon I get Str 9 ordanance so mush better chance of Penetrating vehicles and I have a chance of blowing it up. The HBC has no hope of doing that.

Your assessment of the burst cannon getting more wounds means you are using ML to buff BS and then ignoring cover so you are now using 4 ML to the 2 ML the ion cannon is using.

You don´t get to buff your Inv or fire the support weapon twice or boost your jet pack movement because you want to gain the rending option. If you do choose something else then the TBC is just worse again.

I reiterate the only reason competative players put a TBC in a riptide wing is to improve anti flyer capability

I agree with all of this. 90% of the Riptide Wing lists I have seen prefer the Ion. At best you see 2 Ions & 1 HBC. But the main point is that the HBC has to be augmented by Nova Charge and MLs. The Ion memely needs to be overcharged, thus allowing your Nova charge and MLs to be used for other things (like 3++ and Ignores cover).
I would also argue that the Ion is very decent against Flyers as the higher Str and guaranteed AP2 will make more Flyers & FMCs Jink.

Getting slightly back on Ynnari topic, taking a Ridtide Wing alongside Ynnari, you'll want the Ions as well, since the "competitive" shooting units are all RoF weapons, not Large Blasts. They give use options we just don't have otherwise, and Intercepting a Blast is pretty deadly against Deep strikers.



I finally got a game in with the Reborn Host the other day. It was sadly an unsatisfying experience. I took 2 Hosts + USF. My opponent was Guard with 2 Punishers (1 with Pask) and 2 separate Leman Russ tanks with Plasma cannon (not sure the name). He also have 2 Chimera Vet units, a few 3-man Psyker suqads and a HUGE mega-blob with Inquisitors.
The reason the game was unsatisfying is because I didn't get a single Soulburst all game.
There was a ton of LoS blocking terrain, so he could barely shoot any of my units. By turn 3 he hadn't killed a single model of mine (not even the USF Vypers in his deployment) so he forfeit.

It was mostly just bad rolls on his part, not having good targets and me rolling hot on my WKs FNP and the Vypers Jink.
But something important I learned is that castling is not as easy as I thought it would be, and even with an Autarch you can still roll 1s for Reserve (so relying on units to come in can be dangerous)

-

I just want to make sure you guys aren't planning for the wrong thing. I'm checking every tournament result with lists provided on it that I can find and so far I've only found 1 single riptide with an Ion Cannon and that was from the most recent LVO. The other 5 riptides in the top eight were still HBC.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
The tournament scene just doesn´t support you claims that the HBC is better.

What are you basing that on? Here's a recent ITC result for an example https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/01/25/the-goldensprue-cup-gt-aftermath/

There were 3 riptide wings in the top 8 and every single one of the riptides (10 total) ran a HBC.

And the reason for that is that none of those armies needed the Large Blast at any point.

2 were non tau lists with Skatarch WK with flamestorm templates and the other was a tau list with 2 in your face Y-Tides that wanted non scatter shooting. I have to admit that ITC in america generally seems to prefer HBC. Maybe its an ITC thing. every riptide wing I have seen in UK tournaments run 2 Ion and 1 HBC maybe.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I just want to make sure you guys aren't planning for the wrong thing. I'm checking every tournament result with lists provided on it that I can find and so far I've only found 1 single riptide with an Ion Cannon and that was from the most recent LVO. The other 5 riptides in the top eight were still HBC.

That's news to me then. And certainly makes WWP D-scythe WG a much more powerful option if you don't have to worry about that AP2 Blast that wounds them on 2+ immediately after they drop. I'd gladly face 1-2 Rending wounds (and the rest only wounding on 4+ AP4) over that.

I highly anticipate the Reborn Host to dramatically affect tourney results in the coming months. WWP WG are a pretty hard counter to Riptides, especially if they aren't intercepting with Ion.

-