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I agree. What I was getting at was a solo unit coming in is deader then dead. But multiple units, at the same time force the tau to either ignore some to focus another down, or spread fire out - increasing survival odds for those units (because they are taking less fire)

So if you must deepstrike in - (and I don't like that tatic anyway cause often times you stand there like a tool to get shot to pieces) go all in and bring everything. Otherwise it's a waste of points, a free kp or 2 to the other guy and a waste of potential.

That same unit of WG + archon + Seer + characters can march up field and with psychic soulburst move twice, run and then charge. Possibly covering 18" plus charge range a turn. If you start at edge of deployment on a 6x4 table, you are now maybe one turn away from a charge. And you can use the veil of tears, invisibility and whatever else to keep you covered. - going that way seems much more .... survivable.

Caedes wrote:

On harlequin options:

Any thoughts on the heros path formation?

I played one game with this formation, paired with Illic Nightspear and a full ranger unit behind them. I really liked how it worked together, when the Shadowseer died I got a full extra round of shooting with the snipers and death jester, and summoned Yncarne where the Shadowseer was who assaulted with the Solitaire in my turn. That forced my opponent to deal with this group while the rest of my army advanced more-or-less unscathed.

So the benefits from it - the infiltrate stealth/shrouded does that pay off in exchange for not being able to join units? I guess if you have elite slot shortage it helps there.

I was thinking of using one loaded up the following way:

Solitaire with mask of secrets
Shadow Seer with star mist raiment (cause he should always be running and not shooting)
Death jester as is.

But I'm likewise tempted to just take them outside the formation and join the death jester and Seer to units to buff them up, while the solitaire hits a flank.

Caedes wrote:
I agree. What I was getting at was a solo unit coming in is deader then dead. But multiple units, at the same time force the tau to either ignore some to focus another down, or spread fire out - increasing survival odds for those units (because they are taking less fire)

So if you must deepstrike in - (and I don't like that tatic anyway cause often times you stand there like a tool to get shot to pieces) go all in and bring everything. Otherwise it's a waste of points, a free kp or 2 to the other guy and a waste of potential.

That same unit of WG + archon + Seer + characters can march up field and with psychic soulburst move twice, run and then charge. Possibly covering 18" plus charge range a turn. If you start at edge of deployment on a 6x4 table, you are now maybe one turn away from a charge. And you can use the veil of tears, invisibility and whatever else to keep you covered. - going that way seems much more .... survivable.

I think you can only soulburst once per turn even if you use the spell.
I don't have the codex but doesn't an archon have acces to a piece of wargear that gives him a 2++ until he fails a save? That could keep them alive decently if they deep strike and then if he dies the WG could shoot. Also is it worth putting the archon in the squad if you aren't deep striking them? I thought the whole point of him being there was for the WWP.

Caedes wrote:
So the benefits from it - the infiltrate stealth/shrouded does that pay off in exchange for not being able to join units? I guess if you have elite slot shortage it helps there.

I was thinking of using one loaded up the following way:

Solitaire with mask of secrets
Shadow Seer with star mist raiment (cause he should always be running and not shooting)
Death jester as is.

But I'm likewise tempted to just take them outside the formation and join the death jester and Seer to units to buff them up, while the solitaire hits a flank.

As I was using it as an Yncarne delivery system, the infiltrate was very beneficial. I need a unit to die, so the fact they can't join units actually makes that easier. Ideally, the Shadowseer or Death Jester gets killed turn one, summoning the Yncarne and giving the Solitaire a 12" Soulburst move for a turn one assault with both models (not sure I can Soulburst move the Yncarne from the death of the unit that summons him?). I added Illic and the rangers to benefit from the Soulburst and, if my opponent doesn't take the bait on the harlequin characters, to kill off an enemy unit.

 Oaka wrote:

Caedes wrote:
So the benefits from it - the infiltrate stealth/shrouded does that pay off in exchange for not being able to join units? I guess if you have elite slot shortage it helps there.

I was thinking of using one loaded up the following way:

Solitaire with mask of secrets
Shadow Seer with star mist raiment (cause he should always be running and not shooting)
Death jester as is.

But I'm likewise tempted to just take them outside the formation and join the death jester and Seer to units to buff them up, while the solitaire hits a flank.

As I was using it as an Yncarne delivery system, the infiltrate was very beneficial. I need a unit to die, so the fact they can't join units actually makes that easier. Ideally, the Shadowseer or Death Jester gets killed turn one, summoning the Yncarne and giving the Solitaire a 12" Soulburst move for a turn one assault with both models (not sure I can Soulburst move the Yncarne from the death of the unit that summons him?). I added Illic and the rangers to benefit from the Soulburst and, if my opponent doesn't take the bait on the harlequin characters, to kill off an enemy unit.

Don't forget you can't charge first turn if you infiltrated. That's why infiltrate isn't that good for a solitaire.
However, a death jester infiltrating in cover upfield can sometimes make a unit run off the board first turn (and shrouded helps a lot obviously).

Tonight at 6:30 GMT on warhammer live, you get to see the 3 Triumvirate boxes go at it. Gee, I wonder which one will win....

Caedes wrote:
That would be pretty awsome. Only issue I could see - is v tau you could be facing ALOT if interceptor fire potentially getting killed before doing anything. - that unit does not have much in the way of invun saves and tau can drop a lot of str 6+ ap 1-2 shots. Especially if it's a riptide etc you are aiming for. You'd have to draw that interceptor fire off with something else - maybe a yneads net? If it works - you have jetbike squads all coming in from all sides. Then wwp in closeish to his lines but screened by the bikes. Hopefully he takes the bait and goes for the scary big bikes screaming in everywhere giving the portal team a chance.

But just solo .... showing up in a nicely bunched up circle ... just begs tau to divert ALL the ion/fusion/plasma they can. And that'll kill you off before doing anything more then whimper

You need to bring a psychic support my friend. Invis/fortune are your friends.

Just want to put this out here, he killed a unit with a combination of the visarche and ynncarne, and then soulburst the ynncarne into Robutt and then took all his attacks including hammer of wrath all over again. That was two full sets of attacks from the ynncarne. And of course Robutte wiped out the avatar and visarch in one round. The guy also had a pretty good grasp of the rules, correcting everyone else, answering questions when they asked, as well.

An archon to take a portal and shadowfield is 70!! Points. And you haven't even given him a weapon yet, plus the base cost of the archon. That's a VERY expensive model to just brush off as a suicide unit to maybe kill one thing. And keep in mind - the unit portals in, then interceptor goes off and of movement phase - possibly wiping out your entire unit. There won't be anything left to soulburst with, let alone use psychic powers. Because your DED before you can do it. And yea - t6 3+ armor is easy for Tau to remove. A few riptide blasts, some plasma/fusion fire, smart missiles... and bye bye. You just dropped in and gave him a 300pt unit kill, and got nothing for it.

If you use psychic support, better off on foot. That way you can actually use the powers. And charge. Soulburst to move is almost as good. Turn 1 deploy max range out at 12". Scout move from eldrad 6". Normal move 6" then soulburst to move again, then run. Your now 30"+run range away from your table edge, 18 from the other guys side. Turn 2 - move soulburst to move and charge. Still a turn 2 charge. But on foot you get veil/invisibility to keep you safe, and can generate damage from shriek or whatever. And honestly with the amount of psykers this army gets their is no reason not to be getting veil and invisibility and the soulburst power.

Caedes wrote:
An archon to take a portal and shadowfield is 70!! Points. And you haven't even given him a weapon yet, plus the base cost of the archon. That's a VERY expensive model to just brush off as a suicide unit to maybe kill one thing. And keep in mind - the unit portals in, then interceptor goes off and of movement phase - possibly wiping out your entire unit. There won't be anything left to soulburst with, let alone use psychic powers. Because your DED before you can do it. And yea - t6 3+ armor is easy for Tau to remove. A few riptide blasts, some plasma/fusion fire, smart missiles... and bye bye. You just dropped in and gave him a 300pt unit kill, and got nothing for it.

If you use psychic support, better off on foot. That way you can actually use the powers. And charge. Soulburst to move is almost as good. Turn 1 deploy max range out at 12". Scout move from eldrad 6". Normal move 6" then soulburst to move again, then run. Your now 30"+run range away from your table edge, 18 from the other guys side. Turn 2 - move soulburst to move and charge. Still a turn 2 charge. But on foot you get veil/invisibility to keep you safe, and can generate damage from shriek or whatever. And honestly with the amount of psykers this army gets their is no reason not to be getting veil and invisibility and the soulburst power.

Yeah but Eldrad is almost the cost of two shadowfield and WWP archons.

I am currently building an uber competitive tau army (double stormsurge and a riptide wing) and when you have two (as Galef proposed) units with a T6 2++ tanking, that's a lot of interceptor fire.

Eldrad almost never gets into my army lists, maybe if he is already in yours I can understand. It's a shame too, but his money comes from his warlord trait. If your pressed for HQ's then maybe he might be good, but he's too expensive for a slightly more expensive farseer with an extra mastery level.

Now that he is Ynari, giving scout to some quins isn't a bad idea... but still way too expensive.

Caedes wrote:
So the benefits from it - the infiltrate stealth/shrouded does that pay off in exchange for not being able to join units? I guess if you have elite slot shortage it helps there.

I was thinking of using one loaded up the following way:

Solitaire with mask of secrets
Shadow Seer with star mist raiment (cause he should always be running and not shooting)
Death jester as is.

But I'm likewise tempted to just take them outside the formation and join the death jester and Seer to units to buff them up, while the solitaire hits a flank.

Isn't the Mask of Secrets a Shadowseer only item? OR did you mean Shadowseer with Mask and Solitaire with Starmist?

Solitare can't take the mask, only shadowseers

Since you can only take one relic on a dude, I'd always take the mask instead of starmist, unless it's a masque detachment and the character doesn't already have a relic.

Usually I give the mask to the shadowseer. Solitaire doesn't need anything imho since he's fast, tanky and has a good save.

Maybe the lost shroud to make him more survivable. Since he's gotta be on his own anyway.

It feels like a waste since he already has EW, and that's really the money part of the lost shroud. IWND and FnP is nice, but he doesn't get FnP against S6+ and will die in a single turn of shooting, so IWND might not always make a difference.

So, i'm getting ready for an upcoming ITC event where i'll be running some flavor of Ynnari/Tau (possibly just Riptide Wing, but I am primarily a Tau player so I have access to anything).

For our local meta there aren't too many top-tier lists which show up with one exception.... a guy running Magnus and the Sect.

Any suggestions for Eldar toys to bring which might help? I've been running Ynnari elements of my lists as two Archons with WWP, each with a D-scythe Wraithguard unit. Two min units of Scatbikes, and a Wraithknight.

kind of random, but i am going to an event shortly where we get to see the lists and check them ahead of time. I notice one of my fellow eldar players is taking a side CAD and includes the yncarne in it, is that legal? i thought you could only take it in the reborn warhost where he already has a wraithknight as his LOW?

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:
kind of random, but i am going to an event shortly where we get to see the lists and check them ahead of time. I notice one of my fellow eldar players is taking a side CAD and includes the yncarne in it, is that legal? i thought you could only take it in the reborn warhost where he already has a wraithknight as his LOW?

The Yncarn, Visarch and Yvrain can be taken in any Eldar, Dark Eldar or Harlequin FOC detachment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
Personally I'm liking the idea of a unit of Wraithguard with a WWP Archon and the Armour of Misery, A Farseer rolling on Telepathy (maybe taking Guide as well), Shadowseer with Mask of Secrets rolling on Phantasmancy and maybe the Visarch for Silence.

You drop in, nuke something with Psychic Shrieke at -4 to Ld (-5 if you can get Terrify off as well) and if it's a unit the Visarch can force them to use their lowest Leadership. Thats potnetially a lot of wounds and likely a very dead Riptide squad, Stormsurge, Wraithknight, Dreadknight etc. You then Soulburst and nuke something else with the Wraithcannons and then in your shooting phase hit something else with the Wraithcannons.

I just wrote a list with something similar, although I am not willing to put that many characters into 1 unit. I was thinking just the D-scythe WG, Archon & Shadowseer.

Quick question about that: The Armour of Misery says "units", the Mask of Secrets says "models". So if a unit has even 1 model outside of 12" of the Mask, does that mean it doesn't work, since the unit could still use the highest LD? Would that even affect Shriek since it isn't a true LD test (which is where is says to use the highest)? Could you use the majority LD in this case?

I'd be wary of using this tactic against Riptides though. RIptides almost always have EWO and I can say from personal experience that you will not have a unit left if you drop them anywhere a Riptide can see them. A few months ago I tried an D-scythe WG unit with a Shadowfield Archon. My opponent have a Riptide wing. I managed to drop where only 1 Riptide could see them, but it still managed to wipe the unit with 1 blast (Archon rolled a 1 on his first save). Granted it was all luck on the opponents pat, but it is possible you lose the WG before the Psychic phase can protect them.
And the FAQ now confirms that you finish resolving an attack before you Soulburst, so you wouldn't have many WG left to soulburst off the dead Archon.

-

I'm guessing you'd need the full enemy unit to be within 12" to get the full -2 Ld benefit. Still, with no scatter deep strike thats not exactly a hard thing to pull off unless your after a massive blob, in which case they probably shouldn't be the target of the the psychic attacks.

It should kind of go without saying that this is not a tactic to use against Tau, their mass interceptor is just too dangerous. The only kind of defence I can think of is having Yvrain and the Visarch in the unit as well, carefully placing them for Look Out, Sir shenanigans between them and the Archon with Shadowfield. You are now, of course, looking at running a Reborn Warhost with the Triumvirate of Ynnead formation and probably a second Warhost to get an Autarch for reserve manipulation, we are no looking at well over 1000pts for 16 models and questionable survivability against all lists. On top of that, whilst you can comfortably nuke three enemy units (provided they are close enough to each other) on the turn you deep strike, you now have a very large, slow moving target.

Definitely not a list you'd take to a tournament, there are far too many counters to it, but for a semi competative friendly game, sure I'm going to use it.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
So, i'm getting ready for an upcoming ITC event where i'll be running some flavor of Ynnari/Tau (possibly just Riptide Wing, but I am primarily a Tau player so I have access to anything).

For our local meta there aren't too many top-tier lists which show up with one exception.... a guy running Magnus and the Sect.

Any suggestions for Eldar toys to bring which might help? I've been running Ynnari elements of my lists as two Archons with WWP, each with a D-scythe Wraithguard unit. Two min units of Scatbikes, and a Wraithknight.

I think I'd do something like:

Riptide Wing - 2 VT, 3 EWO, 1 stims - 630
Drone Net - 224
Your eldar as listed above

 Imateria wrote:
Personally I'm liking the idea of a unit of Wraithguard with a WWP Archon and the Armour of Misery, A Farseer rolling on Telepathy (maybe taking Guide as well), Shadowseer with Mask of Secrets rolling on Phantasmancy and maybe the Visarch for Silence.

You drop in, nuke something with Psychic Shrieke at -4 to Ld (-5 if you can get Terrify off as well) and if it's a unit the Visarch can force them to use their lowest Leadership. Thats potnetially a lot of wounds and likely a very dead Riptide squad, Stormsurge, Wraithknight, Dreadknight etc. You then Soulburst and nuke something else with the Wraithcannons and then in your shooting phase hit something else with the Wraithcannons.

Thats what i was thinking about, if Shadowseer gets Miror of Minds you roll 1 on d6 + 10Ld = 11, they roll 6 on d6 + 10Ld - 5 penalty = 11. Infinite Loop until they die, no matter what saves they have (unless its Girlyman and his plot armor, or unit is stubborn)

DarkPhoenix wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
Personally I'm liking the idea of a unit of Wraithguard with a WWP Archon and the Armour of Misery, A Farseer rolling on Telepathy (maybe taking Guide as well), Shadowseer with Mask of Secrets rolling on Phantasmancy and maybe the Visarch for Silence.

You drop in, nuke something with Psychic Shrieke at -4 to Ld (-5 if you can get Terrify off as well) and if it's a unit the Visarch can force them to use their lowest Leadership. Thats potnetially a lot of wounds and likely a very dead Riptide squad, Stormsurge, Wraithknight, Dreadknight etc. You then Soulburst and nuke something else with the Wraithcannons and then in your shooting phase hit something else with the Wraithcannons.

Thats what i was thinking about, if Shadowseer gets Miror of Minds you roll 1 on d6 + 10Ld = 11, they roll 6 on d6 + 10Ld - 5 penalty = 11. Infinite Loop until they die, no matter what saves they have (unless its Girlyman and his plot armor, or unit is stubborn)

Stubborn only effects Moral, Fear and Pinning checks, just like Fearless. As for Girlyman, yeah, it would be pretty stupid to target him with the leadership based psychic attacks.

 Imateria wrote:

Stubborn only effects Moral, Fear and Pinning checks, just like Fearless. As for Girlyman, yeah, it would be pretty stupid to target him with the leadership based psychic attacks.

Heh, totally missed that one. So it will work on mirror Ynnari wraithknights and stuff.

Don't forget mirror of minds affects a single model, not a unit. An infinite loop will only kill a single model.
It's still pretty good against some MC/GMC (especially the Tau ones that have a low Ld), but it's not as versatile as psychic shriek.

This still won't work against Tau - but yea. armor of misery, mask of secrets combined with shriek is sweet. And the visarch synergies well making the squad leader or attached character almost useless.

^Certainly will work against Tau.

Quick question about that: The Armour of Misery says "units", the Mask of Secrets says "models". So if a unit has even 1 model outside of 12" of the Mask, does that mean it doesn't work, since the unit could still use the highest LD?
Would that even affect Shriek since it isn't a LD test (which is where we use the highest)? Could you use the majority LD in this case?

 Galef wrote:
Quick question about that: The Armour of Misery says "units", the Mask of Secrets says "models". So if a unit has even 1 model outside of 12" of the Mask, does that mean it doesn't work, since the unit could still use the highest LD?
Would that even affect Shriek since it isn't a LD test (which is where we use the highest)? Could you use the majority LD in this case?

As far as I know, a unit's Ld is never defined in the rules. So it's unclear which Ld should be used for psychic shriek.
I think majority Ld makes most sense since it's how mixed values are usually handled when you attack a unit.

How does deepstriking in - and drawing ALL OF THE INTERCEPTOR work? For the points cost of this unit
(Archon 165 wraith guard 160, shadowseer 85, = 400+ not counting visarch ,...
I'm assuming this is a 1500 game or more. But even then tau can have 2 riptides for the same cost as this unit.
Step1: you roll For reserves and make it.
Step 2; you place unit down no scattering pointed at juicy target
Step 3: end of movement he intercepts with ALL THE GUNS
You are nice and bunched up. He has large blasts all over the place, plus smart missiles, plasma, fusion and potentially stormsurge weapons.
Step4: you take off your models

Guess what: no psychic phase. No shenanigans. LD doesn't come into play because you don't get to do anything with it. You also don't get to shoot anything, or soulburst off yourself or anything. Because if a blast weapon hits you have to resolve that weapons attacks before soilbursting. And if you tank on a shadow field archon and he fails just one, he's dead and the rest of the wounds go into the unit. They die cause no invun. If something is left - soulburst away. But then he finishes interceptor and your dead. This is a great way to just waste 400+points against Tau. Vrs other armies, with less interceptor - totally awsome. But tau eat this for breakfast and say thanks for the free meal.

Caedes wrote:
How does deepstriking in - and drawing ALL OF THE INTERCEPTOR work? For the points cost of this unit
(Archon 165 wraith guard 160, shadowseer 85, = 400+ not counting visarch ,...
I'm assuming this is a 1500 game or more. But even then tau can have 2 riptides for the same cost as this unit.
Step1: you roll For reserves and make it.
Step 2; you place unit down no scattering pointed at juicy target
Step 3: end of movement he intercepts with ALL THE GUNS
You are nice and bunched up. He has large blasts all over the place, plus smart missiles, plasma, fusion and potentially stormsurge weapons.
Step4: you take off your models

Guess what: no psychic phase. No shenanigans. LD doesn't come into play because you don't get to do anything with it. You also don't get to shoot anything, or soulburst off yourself or anything. Because if a blast weapon hits you have to resolve that weapons attacks before soilbursting. And if you tank on a shadow field archon and he fails just one, he's dead and the rest of the wounds go into the unit. They die cause no invun. If something is left - soulburst away. But then he finishes interceptor and your dead. This is a great way to just waste 400+points against Tau. Vrs other armies, with less interceptor - totally awsome. But tau eat this for breakfast and say thanks for the free meal.

What exactly are you trying to prove? We all know what Interceptor on Riptides and the Stormsurge does and how it would effect this unit.

 Galef wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
Personally I'm liking the idea of a unit of Wraithguard with a WWP Archon and the Armour of Misery, A Farseer rolling on Telepathy (maybe taking Guide as well), Shadowseer with Mask of Secrets rolling on Phantasmancy and maybe the Visarch for Silence.

You drop in, nuke something with Psychic Shrieke at -4 to Ld (-5 if you can get Terrify off as well) and if it's a unit the Visarch can force them to use their lowest Leadership. Thats potnetially a lot of wounds and likely a very dead Riptide squad, Stormsurge, Wraithknight, Dreadknight etc. You then Soulburst and nuke something else with the Wraithcannons and then in your shooting phase hit something else with the Wraithcannons.

I just wrote a list with something similar, although I am not willing to put that many characters into 1 unit. I was thinking just the D-scythe WG, Archon & Shadowseer.

Quick question about that: The Armour of Misery says "units", the Mask of Secrets says "models". So if a unit has even 1 model outside of 12" of the Mask, does that mean it doesn't work, since the unit could still use the highest LD? Would that even affect Shriek since it isn't a true LD test (which is where is says to use the highest)? Could you use the majority LD in this case?

I'd be wary of using this tactic against Riptides though. RIptides almost always have EWO and I can say from personal experience that you will not have a unit left if you drop them anywhere a Riptide can see them. A few months ago I tried an D-scythe WG unit with a Shadowfield Archon. My opponent have a Riptide wing. I managed to drop where only 1 Riptide could see them, but it still managed to wipe the unit with 1 blast (Archon rolled a 1 on his first save). Granted it was all luck on the opponents pat, but it is possible you lose the WG before the Psychic phase can protect them.
And the FAQ now confirms that you finish resolving an attack before you Soulburst, so you wouldn't have many WG left to soulburst off the dead Archon.

-

Dropping in near Riptides is fine... you should have majority T6, you SHOULD be able to land in cover and even possibly out of LOS of some riptides. With no scatter deepstrike and fair terrain it is very easy to defend yourself. If your opponent is running mostly Ion then you should make sure to land in terrain, they wont be ignoring cover so it isnt a big deal at all, also the vast majority of competitive players take HBC over Ion due to volume of fire and better TAC. Assuming HBC and SMS the chances of doing any damage to T6 with 3+ or better is very low. In return you should almost certainly nuke 1 or more Riptides depending on how they deployed. Having used a Craftworlds + DE list and testing the WWP Wraithguard, I can say that ive never had the entire or even majority of the unit wiped due to Tau interceptor and I always DS aggressively.

Example math, assume all 3 Riptides shoot:
36 Str 6 shots, 18 hits, 9W
12 Str 5 with RR, 9 hit, 3W for a total of 12W
Between ICs and regular saves youll likely lose 2 Wraithguard and 2W on ICs. I usually take a 6-8 man squad of WG so that is hardly a killing blow and keeps the Ripwing from shooting in their following turn. I also havent had situations where all three Riptides were able to shoot the unit at the same time.