And that's fine...it doesn't have to be a value for you. Perhaps you are interested in getting a product at a normal price and helping them reach their goal of producing a new line of miniatures. Kickstarter backing isn't intrinsically tied to getting the most bang for your buck.
It's not a crime that they're not throwing free stuff at people...which seems to be how a lot of people view Kickstarters nowdays with a rather immature disdain.
Elbows wrote: And that's fine...it doesn't have to be a value for you. Perhaps you are interested in getting a product at a normal price and helping them reach their goal of producing a new line of miniatures. Kickstarter backing isn't intrinsically tied to getting the most bang for your buck.
It's not a crime that they're not throwing free stuff at people...which seems to be how a lot of people view Kickstarters nowdays with a rather immature disdain.
If that was my goal (buying a box and helping them produce new Miniatures) I would buy at retail.
Unless there is significant value, it is not worth it to pledge for a product that is a year out from shipping to me, plus I would have to pay that shipping
Hmmm something is off here the total jumped over €5,000 in one go it was at €117,186 last hour now at €122,275, even the retailer pledges don't cost that much, I guess a retailer might have gone in for 50 starter sets or however many unit boxes but it seems like a big commitment 7 months out.
Yeah, I don't really see this as anything but a positive. Even if you assume the worst and they are surreptitiously donating money to their own campaign, I don't see the problem with them putting more skin in the game for an idea they believe in.
I think they are probably right that these kits will sell well at retail.
MDSW wrote: Final week and so close to funding. Everyone that has not jumped in should jump in for a box or two of SOMETHING! Plus, you can get an extra sprue of anything you want as well as some faction shields.
Not worth it with the retail price and having to wait a year. Easier to get 20% off and free shipping at retail
Sure - might be not as low as we have seen other KS prices, but still a decent deal and without helping this hit the goal it will be years if any of these get made, even if made at all. Plus, it is next May for delivery...
MDSW wrote: Final week and so close to funding. Everyone that has not jumped in should jump in for a box or two of SOMETHING! Plus, you can get an extra sprue of anything you want as well as some faction shields.
Not worth it with the retail price and having to wait a year. Easier to get 20% off and free shipping at retail
Sure - might be not as low as we have seen other KS prices, but still a decent deal and without helping this hit the goal it will be years if any of these get made, even if made at all. Plus, it is next May for delivery...
You are wrong, they have said even if they don't fund they will produce the kits
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gallahad wrote: Yeah, I don't really see this as anything but a positive. Even if you assume the worst and they are surreptitiously donating money to their own campaign, I don't see the problem with them putting more skin in the game for an idea they believe in.
I think they are probably right that these kits will sell well at retail.
If they have the skin to throw in, perhaps they should have funded the kits themselves
MDSW wrote: Final week and so close to funding. Everyone that has not jumped in should jump in for a box or two of SOMETHING! Plus, you can get an extra sprue of anything you want as well as some faction shields.
Not worth it with the retail price and having to wait a year. Easier to get 20% off and free shipping at retail
Sure - might be not as low as we have seen other KS prices, but still a decent deal and without helping this hit the goal it will be years if any of these get made, even if made at all. Plus, it is next May for delivery...
I think the value increases with the higher pledge levels. It’s not as good a deal at the lower pledge levels which I think has contributed to the slow funding, a lot of backers are going for the lower pledge levels and those levels are t the sweet spot so it’s tougher to get more backers at that level. If a large majority were backing at the two armies level, if all the EBs has been picked up the funding wouldn’t have been so slow. Maybe too many people have existing collections that are big enough to not need full armies that are as generic as humans and undead or maybe the time commitment of getting 100s of minis tabletop ready isn’t as appealing as it used to be. Clearly the campaign has t been the runaway success FireForge wanted but I’m happy it will fund and I’m happy the market will get more quality HIPs kits for fantasy.
Let's not put the horse behind the cart here. It's still not funded. Maybe it will reach its target on friday, if Fireforge doesn't throw the gauntlet on the ground before.
And I wouldn't blame them if they do, honestly.
Besides, may 2019 isn't a year later from the campaign funding, and Fireforge already throwed their money in the project since they lower the stretch goals to funding even though they say they will take it on their own company's money to make it happen, despite it costing more than the target funding in the end.
True, that's what they said and you may not believe them if you feel like it - but their word is as good as another random guy like Marcus saying their own...let's say point of view on the matter. Isn't that ?
MDSW wrote: Final week and so close to funding. Everyone that has not jumped in should jump in for a box or two of SOMETHING! Plus, you can get an extra sprue of anything you want as well as some faction shields.
Not worth it with the retail price and having to wait a year. Easier to get 20% off and free shipping at retail
Sure - might be not as low as we have seen other KS prices, but still a decent deal and without helping this hit the goal it will be years if any of these get made, even if made at all. Plus, it is next May for delivery...
I think the value increases with the higher pledge levels. It’s not as good a deal at the lower pledge levels which I think has contributed to the slow funding, a lot of backers are going for the lower pledge levels and those levels are t the sweet spot so it’s tougher to get more backers at that level. If a large majority were backing at the two armies level, if all the EBs has been picked up the funding wouldn’t have been so slow. Maybe too many people have existing collections that are big enough to not need full armies that are as generic as humans and undead or maybe the time commitment of getting 100s of minis tabletop ready isn’t as appealing as it used to be. Clearly the campaign has t been the runaway success FireForge wanted but I’m happy it will fund and I’m happy the market will get more quality HIPs kits for fantasy.
If there were a level for one or two boxes that gave a discount even including shipping costs, or enough freebies for "value", I think a lot more people would have pledged, including me. Now, I'm content to wait for retail and save 20 to 25 percent with free shipping.
MDSW wrote: Final week and so close to funding. Everyone that has not jumped in should jump in for a box or two of SOMETHING! Plus, you can get an extra sprue of anything you want as well as some faction shields.
Not worth it with the retail price and having to wait a year. Easier to get 20% off and free shipping at retail
Sure - might be not as low as we have seen other KS prices, but still a decent deal and without helping this hit the goal it will be years if any of these get made, even if made at all. Plus, it is next May for delivery...
I think the value increases with the higher pledge levels. It’s not as good a deal at the lower pledge levels which I think has contributed to the slow funding, a lot of backers are going for the lower pledge levels and those levels are t the sweet spot so it’s tougher to get more backers at that level. If a large majority were backing at the two armies level, if all the EBs has been picked up the funding wouldn’t have been so slow. Maybe too many people have existing collections that are big enough to not need full armies that are as generic as humans and undead or maybe the time commitment of getting 100s of minis tabletop ready isn’t as appealing as it used to be. Clearly the campaign has t been the runaway success FireForge wanted but I’m happy it will fund and I’m happy the market will get more quality HIPs kits for fantasy.
If there were a level for one or two boxes that gave a discount even including shipping costs, or enough freebies for "value", I think a lot more people would have pledged, including me. Now, I'm content to wait for retail and save 20 to 25 percent with free shipping.
This distills one of my main points well. Thank you
MDSW wrote: Final week and so close to funding. Everyone that has not jumped in should jump in for a box or two of SOMETHING! Plus, you can get an extra sprue of anything you want as well as some faction shields.
Not worth it with the retail price and having to wait a year. Easier to get 20% off and free shipping at retail
Sure - might be not as low as we have seen other KS prices, but still a decent deal and without helping this hit the goal it will be years if any of these get made, even if made at all. Plus, it is next May for delivery...
I think the value increases with the higher pledge levels. It’s not as good a deal at the lower pledge levels which I think has contributed to the slow funding, a lot of backers are going for the lower pledge levels and those levels are t the sweet spot so it’s tougher to get more backers at that level. If a large majority were backing at the two armies level, if all the EBs has been picked up the funding wouldn’t have been so slow. Maybe too many people have existing collections that are big enough to not need full armies that are as generic as humans and undead or maybe the time commitment of getting 100s of minis tabletop ready isn’t as appealing as it used to be. Clearly the campaign has t been the runaway success FireForge wanted but I’m happy it will fund and I’m happy the market will get more quality HIPs kits for fantasy.
If there were a level for one or two boxes that gave a discount even including shipping costs, or enough freebies for "value", I think a lot more people would have pledged, including me. Now, I'm content to wait for retail and save 20 to 25 percent with free shipping.
I'm just curious to know: where you are able to buy fireforge games products with a 25% discount?
My local FLGS regularly has sales for specific lines, as well as holidays like Black Friday, Memorial Day, etc.. For example, two weeks ago they had Warlord and Reaper minis 25% off and a similar deal on Renedra bases.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: My local FLGS regularly has sales for specific lines, as well as holidays like Black Friday, Memorial Day, etc.. For example, two weeks ago they had Warlord and Reaper minis 25% off and a similar deal on Renedra bases.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: My local FLGS regularly has sales for specific lines, as well as holidays like Black Friday, Memorial Day, etc.. For example, two weeks ago they had Warlord and Reaper minis 25% off and a similar deal on Renedra bases.
wonderful, what's the name of this shop?
You gonna threaten to not deliver to them anymore like GW?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: My local FLGS regularly has sales for specific lines, as well as holidays like Black Friday, Memorial Day, etc.. For example, two weeks ago they had Warlord and Reaper minis 25% off and a similar deal on Renedra bases.
wonderful, what's the name of this shop?
You gonna threaten to not deliver to them anymore like GW?
I'm just curious, our company was funded by someone that had experience in brick and mortar shop. What we know is that this small shops are the key to create more new hobbysts, more than clubs and gaming groups. Our company to avoid the creation of a bad market has deals and agreements that avoid sales to who discount too much our products. This means that when a brick and mortar shop or a distributor do something like a 25% discount on our products, will never get it anymore from us or from our distributors.
The idea that correct price to pay is the official price with a 25-30% discount is something wrong who damage only brick and mortar shops smallers. It does not damage distributors or companies.
So i don't care if this guy will take our products discounted (it is another question that we will not release anymore these figures without the funding of our campaign), my problem is that there is someone that is avoiding our market deals, creating a damage for other traders smaller and we don't know who is. I simply think that this guy has the hope that will find our products discounted in future...something that will not happen.
So you want him to rat out his local brick and mortar store for daring to have special in-store sale events, so you can punish them in the name of protecting brick and mortar stores?
That is some brilliant customer outreach during a Kickstarter campaign, right there.
Psychopomp wrote: So you want him to rat out his local brick and mortar store for daring to have special in-store sale events, so you can punish them in the name of protecting brick and mortar stores?
That is some brilliant customer outreach during a Kickstarter campaign, right there.
I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt (as does everyone). It isn't uncommon for retailers to set (and enforce) maximum discounts.
Bob and others, including myself, have decided that the time value and opportunity cost of our money is higher than the value Fireforge can offer for only a couple boxes. I will buy at retail, with full understanding that there is a risk they don't show up.
But Bob's not talking about ongoing dicounts, he's talking about special event sales. And the timing and blatancy of pushing for the info needed to sanction Bob's FLGS seems like a poor PR move during a Kickstarter campaign that's looking like it'll need the final 48 hour push just to make basic funding.
But back on topic, I think Fireforge may also be underestimating the impact that the Kickstarter shipping estimates are having on the (KS + international shipping) vs (retail + domesteic/free shipping) equation for folks in the RoW regions.
Psychopomp wrote: But Bob's not talking about ongoing dicounts, he's talking about special event sales. And the timing and blatancy of pushing for the info needed to sanction Bob's FLGS seems like a poor PR move during a Kickstarter campaign that's looking like it'll need the final 48 hour push just to make basic funding.
But back on topic, I think Fireforge may also be underestimating the impact that the Kickstarter shipping estimates are having on the (KS + international shipping) vs (retail + domesteic/free shipping) equation for folks in the RoW regions.
it's not something new made for bob's evil genius shop. It's our trader policy from the far 2012. What you don't understand is that final customer will always pay the shipping costs to get the products: this is why gw and all the companies have different trader form with different currencies. Just because you don't see that it does not mean that you are not paying more a product to cover shipping costs of the products. Bob will buy the models in US? Will pay them with a different exchange rate by the real exchange rate. Bob can get models discount in a good price only by resellers who do special events once or from other final customers. Shops who sell product with a 30% discount are working for a 3% net profit and this is really sad.
You're edging the numbers up, there. No one's mentioned 30% off until that post right there. Before that, Bob mentioned 20-25% off, and you focused on 25%, because Bob mentioned other company's products were on a one-off sale for that much last week.
What I see more common is 10-20% online (and you can do your own damn Google search if that's something you want to sanction stores trying to get your products into the retail market) from retailers who offer lower/combined shipping or even free shipping over a certain total order. Perhaps that's only cost-effective for domestic US shipping for US retailers - I don't know, I'm not a retailer. But as a customer, it's a very nice perk that I appreciate, and makes me more likely to buy from a retailer.
The best scenario, of course, is a discount or sale at a FLGS, as the only shipping is that already baked - as you say - into the retail price, and you're getting a little extra off of that. I picked up some of your Teutonic boxes from a FLGS (that I sadly have moved away from) at a 10% discount because I was part of their frequent buyer program. Don't bother asking the name of that store, since they can no longer get your products after the old distributor for them folded, and even if they could, I wouldn't tell you.
The sad truth is, if I can get a few of these boxes at 10% off (even with your jacked-up exchange rate to cover the international shipping) after retail and free shipping, then it'll be easier for me to pick up a few boxes as I need them later. And I'll probably end up spending even less than I would have on an awesome crazy deal, even without the kickstarter discount. You failed to offer a deal (or event just an event...this Kickstarter has been very fire-and-forget on Fireforge's part) that overrode my "rational customer" thinking, so I didn't get crazy enthusiastic and go in harder than I intended to in my excitement.
THAT is what the crazy-deal Kickstarters are about. They're fun and exciting and override the customer's rationality. That's what Mantic and CMON are good at. "Why settle for the rulebook and one force, when for just $75 more you get the rulebook, both new factions, AND this third faction made entirely of old product we've already paid the production costs for from the last kickstarter?" Value and pizzazz, and this Kickstarter failed me (oh, I'm sorry, IN MY OPINION AND MY OPINION ALONE, WHO IS THE ONLY PERSON I SPEAK FOR ON THE INTERNET, THAT BEING ME, ALONE, JUST ONE GUY WITH JUST AN OPINION) in both. And now Fireforge is cruising a discussion forum thread on it to try and ferret out maximum discount violators rather than trying to...I don't know...stir up some enthusiasm for their Kickstarter. That still hasn't actually funded right now.
But that's fine. It means I still have this month's hobby budget to spend, and Crooked Dice is starting their 7TV Apocalypse Kickstarter tonight. I bet that one will be exciting...
Typically, the products that get such special event discounts have sat for a long time and won't sell at their suggested prices or manufacturer suggested discount anyway. Many local shops have completely stopped carrying Mantic's KoW and Deadzone products, for example.
I guess I don't know if Fireforge was ever discounted so heavily. I really haven't kept track of sales and coupons I've used. I do own several of your boxes, especially the Mongols*, so I assume some portion of them were discounted enough to entice me to buy them.
*While I have your attention, please describe for me the design decisions involved with the Mongol kits, especially their faces. The faces really hold them back from being amazing kits.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would buy the crap out of some historical Chinese or Korean minis in the same scale, especially if their heads are good and swappable.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would buy the crap out of some historical Chinese or Korean minis in the same scale, especially if their heads are good and swappable.
Bob's not the only one who'd buy up a bunch of nicely sculpted Asian historicals. I've been bemoaning the lack of modern scale samurai for quite some time.
I've also picked up Fireforge stuff at 25% off online. It's not often but it's not that uncommon either.
Bob's store also tends to discount closer to 20% as a one time thing, and it's not very often.
The deep discounts are often door busters on Black Friday for a limited amount of hours, having been there myself.
Psychopomp wrote:Better. They could still win me back if they do this a few more times. I'm very frustrated, because I want to be a part of this, but it's also got to be worth my while. Maybe an Early Bird instead of the Starter Box. I honestly don't care about the game, it's the minis that interest me, and the freedom of choice could help.
'If they do this a few more times' Unreal behaviour.
Psychopomp wrote:No one has made any such claim that I've seen. Certainly not me, if that's who you've referred to.
I'm just one potential backer who gave feedback. And when I left, I explained why. Fireforge can keep adding value and maybe bring me back in but it'll be their decision to do so. I don't dictate their actions any more than they can dictate what I do with my money.
But there's still a chance in the next two weeks they'll keep adding some value and hit a threshold where I'll come back in. But there's a chance they won't. There's a lot of competition in this market right now, and they don't just have to offer me a better deal, they've got to offer me something I think beats other deals on offer.
You're not the same as a potential new backer. You joined it based on what was offered from the get go, have added plenty of 'contribution' in Fireforge's KS comment section, made a declaration of withdrawing and now are making a big deal about the level of value not being sufficient yet for you to come back in.
If you want to back Fireforge's Kickstarter please do so. If you don't want to back it then that's fine too. But please don't join and add any negativity into their comments section, Cheers. Oh and not derailing the discussion going forward here would also be cool.
Psychopomp wrote:
The sad truth is, if I can get a few of these boxes at 10% off (even with your jacked-up exchange rate to cover the international shipping) after retail and free shipping, then it'll be easier for me to pick up a few boxes as I need them later. And I'll probably end up spending even less than I would have on an awesome crazy deal, even without the kickstarter discount. You failed to offer a deal (or event just an event...this Kickstarter has been very fire-and-forget on Fireforge's part) that overrode my "rational customer" thinking, so I didn't get crazy enthusiastic and go in harder than I intended to in my excitement.
THAT is what the crazy-deal Kickstarters are about. They're fun and exciting and override the customer's rationality. That's what Mantic and CMON are good at. "Why settle for the rulebook and one force, when for just $75 more you get the rulebook, both new factions, AND this third faction made entirely of old product we've already paid the production costs for from the last kickstarter?" Value and pizzazz, and this Kickstarter failed me (oh, I'm sorry, IN MY OPINION AND MY OPINION ALONE, WHO IS THE ONLY PERSON I SPEAK FOR ON THE INTERNET, THAT BEING ME, ALONE, JUST ONE GUY WITH JUST AN OPINION) in both. And now Fireforge is cruising a discussion forum thread on it to try and ferret out maximum discount violators rather than trying to...I don't know...stir up some enthusiasm for their Kickstarter. That still hasn't actually funded right now.
But that's fine. It means I still have this month's hobby budget to spend, and Crooked Dice is starting their 7TV Apocalypse Kickstarter tonight. I bet that one will be exciting...
If you are so unhappy with Fireforge's Kickstarter, as you have previously indicated, then why the need to try and drag it down with your negativity? As I outlined previously you 'joined it based on what was offered from the get go, have added plenty of 'contribution' in Fireforge's KS comment section, made a declaration of withdrawing and now are making a big deal about the level of value not being sufficient yet for you to come back in'. Many would disagree with you on Fireforge offering a 'deal' and in fact they have reacted very positively to 'POSITIVE' customer engagement with many people commenting on this in the KS comment tread.
If this Kickstarter is not sufficiently 'crazy-deal' for you that's cool but there is zero obligation on you to buy into it. And any attempt to twist things to make out that Fireforge are acting nefariously on the tread are dishonourable; they have acted very pro-actively in regards to customer engagement and generating enthusiasm, particularly on the KS comment section. Unfortunately the kinds of tangents being opened up here make things a little more difficult..or possibly pointless in that regard which is unfortunate.
Yes we all know it still hasn't funded...but it's near and I think many wish them the best of luck in funding with every success going forward.
Psychopomp wrote: But Bob's not talking about ongoing dicounts, he's talking about special event sales. And the timing and blatancy of pushing for the info needed to sanction Bob's FLGS seems like a poor PR move during a Kickstarter campaign that's looking like it'll need the final 48 hour push just to make basic funding.
But back on topic, I think Fireforge may also be underestimating the impact that the Kickstarter shipping estimates are having on the (KS + international shipping) vs (retail + domesteic/free shipping) equation for folks in the RoW regions.
it's not something new made for bob's evil genius shop. It's our trader policy from the far 2012. What you don't understand is that final customer will always pay the shipping costs to get the products: this is why gw and all the companies have different trader form with different currencies. Just because you don't see that it does not mean that you are not paying more a product to cover shipping costs of the products. Bob will buy the models in US? Will pay them with a different exchange rate by the real exchange rate. Bob can get models discount in a good price only by resellers who do special events once or from other final customers. Shops who sell product with a 30% discount are working for a 3% net profit and this is really sad.
I had backed your KS for a few boxes to use for an Imperial Guard conversion, however now that I've seen in writing that you advocate manufacturers telling people what they can or cannot do with products that have already been paid for I cannot in good conscience support your efforts.
I'm voting with my dollar, and it's no longer going to be a dollar you get.
Feedback explaining why Fireforge lost me and hasn't gotten me back isn't negativity. It's feedback. I'm sorry it doesn't jive with what you want to see in a big happy thread about this big, slow to fund Kickstarter, but it is what it is. I was excited by the previews of the miniatures, joined early in the hopes of seeing Fireforge but something special into this campaign, and was disappointed. And when it became apparent that little was going to change, I gave them warnings and feedback. When I left, I have them explanations and feedback. I'm sorry that for some reason this disturbs you, but I haven't said anything about hoping they don't fund. I haven't said others shouldn't have funded, if they feel its a good enough deal. I've wanted - at every turn - to see Fireforge be more proactive, make this Kickstarter more exciting, and maybe have a chance to fund more than one stretch goal...if they get that far. I have wanted nothing more than to see them do better, and have tried to make the case for how I think they could do that. I'm glad that this campaign has been "good enough" for you. I, however, think it could have been amazing, and I have been frustrated that Fireforge has limited themselves to some mediocre deals on pricing and some very basic question-answering on the Kickstarter comments.
I have tried to point out that this Kickstarter has (and continues to) move much slower than others of a similar size and goal, and explain why I think why. I've been discussing the situation. On a discussion board.
But so obviously trying to get Bob to name names to hit his store on maximum discounts? I'm not suggesting anything nefarious, I'm outright saying that given the slow campaign, maybe there's better uses of wargaming message boards right now, you know?
They confirmed in the comments that you can get more than one early bird in the same pledge. So I am at 2 early birds for 240E. That gets 2 free packs of shields, 2 free boxes, 2 free sprues, and double the characters that have been unlocked. Fingers crossed this funds....
This campaign will still have a 48 hour bump, that has not gone away from Kickstarter. That should get it well over 130k Euros.
I find it a bit odd Fireforge have a policy that forbids discounting below 20% on any of their product FOREVER, I can't imagine many stores would be willing to agree to that without some kind of buyback program, but then again I've never seen any of the stores around me carry their stuff. Now I know they never will. Unless you're GW or Magic cards, you wouldn't be worth it. But I would shy away from asking anyone to provide information to be used against their local store, what if the store found out and blamed them? Or the person in question felt bad about causing a situation? And of course, it doesn't look good to potential customers.
Sarouan wrote: And good luck finding these discounted zombie and living peasant plastic kits where you live, Lord Marcus.
Making a challenge of it? Knowing how Americans feel about bargain hunting, price fixing, and retailers, I fully expect "25% off Fireforge" to become A Thing.
Sarouan wrote: And good luck finding these discounted zombie and living peasant plastic kits where you live, Lord Marcus.
You're talking to someone who has 10,000 points of Undead for kings of War. Plus there are many other zombie kits I could use or even human kits with zombie heads. The Mantic Games omby kit for example is very modular
Making a challenge of it? Knowing how Americans feel about bargain hunting, price fixing, and retailers, I fully expect "25% off Fireforge" to become A Thing.
Oh, given what your president is doing, I'm not sure you'll find much discount when taxes will hit the exported products from the Old World, you know.
But like I said, good luck hunting that. Like Fireforge said, if the sellers don't see a profit to sell something, they just won't sell it.
You're talking to someone who has 10,000 points of Undead for kings of War. Plus there are many other zombie kits I could use or even human kits with zombie heads. The Mantic Games omby kit for example is very modular
lord marcus wrote:Good job witch hunting stores who are carrying product there, fireforge
Man the entire way the 'witch hunting' angle in this tread has unfolded is a class example of baiting and twisting.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Sarouan wrote: And good luck finding these discounted zombie and living peasant plastic kits where you live, Lord Marcus.
Making a challenge of it? Knowing how Americans feel about bargain hunting, price fixing, and retailers, I fully expect "25% off Fireforge" to become A Thing.
Is that good or bad? I like the spears well enough so wont be adding any of the weapons. I will be looking for some alternate heads for commanders and maybe an elite unit... Might make some females with some Statuesque heads as well.
Lord Ekard wrote: This means that when a brick and mortar shop or a distributor do something like a 25% discount on our products, will never get it anymore from us or from our distributors..
Nothing says 'We support your business!' better than refusing to sell to that business...
BobtheInquisitor wrote: My local FLGS regularly has sales for specific lines, as well as holidays like Black Friday, Memorial Day, etc.. For example, two weeks ago they had Warlord and Reaper minis 25% off and a similar deal on Renedra bases.
wonderful, what's the name of this shop?
You gonna threaten to not deliver to them anymore like GW?
I'm just curious, our company was funded by someone that had experience in brick and mortar shop. What we know is that this small shops are the key to create more new hobbysts, more than clubs and gaming groups. Our company to avoid the creation of a bad market has deals and agreements that avoid sales to who discount too much our products. This means that when a brick and mortar shop or a distributor do something like a 25% discount on our products, will never get it anymore from us or from our distributors.
The idea that correct price to pay is the official price with a 25-30% discount is something wrong who damage only brick and mortar shops smallers. It does not damage distributors or companies.
So i don't care if this guy will take our products discounted (it is another question that we will not release anymore these figures without the funding of our campaign), my problem is that there is someone that is avoiding our market deals, creating a damage for other traders smaller and we don't know who is. I simply think that this guy has the hope that will find our products discounted in future...something that will not happen.
I'm just here to say this is an incredibly, INCREDIBLY stupid PR move by a company. You really need to rethink this approach.
Wait, isn't that the same thing that apple, Nintendo, Asmodee (and thus FFG), Privateer, and countless others do? Also every book publisher also sets a max discount price and they do enforce it.
When rich, powerful companies abuse their customers and front line retailers, it doesn't mean we have to like it, and it doesn't make it right. Smaller companies shouldn't be surprised that they don't have the clout or advantage to get away with it--when they try they just piss people off.
I understand people not liking it but I pretty much feal like this is the same song-and-dance that happens every 4-6 months. Someone sets up a max discount like CMoN. People here get upset and say they're done with the company, nothing really changes as ultimately no one really cares and just like venting on a forum.
Doing so must not hurt overall sales as more and more small companies are doing this, it's not just something for the big players.
I suspect it has more to do with most small companies not really complying, and custom continuing as usual.
Although I understand The War Store and MM have been badly hit with diminishing sales since they slowed the discount train. It's almost like customers just aren't interested in these products at the prices manufacturers insist on.
That maybe the case (and probably is) but I vote with my wallet and my vote says no. Will it cause the world to quake? No. Will I go on an internet crusade with flaming e-torches? No. But I am not so desperate for toys that I have to give money to companies whose policies I don't like (or whose communication I find distasteful). YMMV.
I want to address the idea that the critics of this kickstarter have been unfair. Some in this thread seem to think that the creator-pledger relationship should be mostly one way and passive, that we should either pay up or shut up. But that is not what Kickstarter is for, and not even really what Fireforge wants it to be. Kickstarter is a platform for creators to publicize their projects, fire up potential customers, gain feedback, and then convince people all over the world fund their project if they find it worthy. Kickstarter is not a standard retailer-customer venue and it is a waste of time to approach it like it is. When creators come hat in hand to beg for money they had better prepare to sing and dance. If a company wants to reap the benefits of having a successful, high profile kickstarter campaign, they need to be willing to play the kickstarter game. And they need to realize that failure on Kickstarter is not measured by how many posters criticize your project but rather by how few are engaged enough to care. So put on your game face, because kickstarter is supposed to get rough. To paraphrase Q, there are rewards to satiate creators both subtle and gross, but it is not for the timid.
Fireforge is an established company with many plastic kits already on the market. This affects how potential backers see them. They can't expect to play in the small pool with Heresy Lab, Tre Manor, Slumbering Oblivion and the like. Fireforge fits in the big pool, with Mantic, CMON and even Shieldwolf. In the big pool, the rules are different. When Shieldwolf made their plastic orcs, they played the kickstarter game, took all kinds of criticism and feedback, offered value, and succeeded. When they made their Shieldmaidens, they played the kickstarter game and took their lumps. When Shieldwolf made their plastic Sisters, they saw they couldn't afford to play the kickstarter game, so they didn't launch a kickstarter. The lesson: know what you're getting into and walk away if you can't afford to play.
Now look at Mantic. Mantic wasn't any bigger than Fireforge when they started playing the kickstarter game. But Mantic played the game and played well. If you look at any of their campaigns, you'll see all manner of demands and harsh words, but you'll also see Mantic take it and play the kickstarter game. Sometimes Mantic screwed up big, but they always moved to make it up to the customers, to keep their customers placated. Mantic is simultaneously known as a serial bungler of kickstarters and as one of our most beloved kickstarter companies. Because Mantic always comes prepared to play the kickstarter game. The lesson: come prepared if you want to play the kickstarter game, and never lose your cool. Any screw up, even if it isn't your fault, is yours to atone for.
Look at CMON. I don't know if anyone is actually rooting for that company. I feel dirty every time I pledge with them. But CMON are masters of the kickstarter game because they play to win. They thrive on giving value for money. The lesson: the perceived value and exciting pageantry of a well-played kickstarter game will forgive many, many sins in the eyes of potential backers. Corollary: upstanding righteousness will win you no kickstarter game if you don't bring sufficient value for enough backers. And it becomes evident that Fireforge is lacking on that metric, too.
In conclusion, we have not been harsh to Fireforge. We have been trying to engage with Fireforge. We tried to help them play the kickstarter game. Instead, they scored an own goal and snarled at us when we gasped.
Going back to the MSRP enforcement, you lot realize this policy exists entirely to protect the FLGS? The manufacturer gets no direct benefit, they get the same wholesale price either way.
lord_blackfang wrote: Going back to the MSRP enforcement, you lot realize this policy exists entirely to protect the FLGS? The manufacturer gets no direct benefit, they get the same wholesale price either way.
Mandating the minimum price someone is allowed to sell your product for doesn't protect them from anything. It just removes their ability to sell below that price, and potentially removes their ability to compete with those who ignore the rules.
What it does do is allow the manufacturer to control the perceived value of their product, because potential customers won't see it deeply discounted as often.
Going back to the MSRP enforcement, you lot realize this policy exists entirely to protect the FLGS? The manufacturer gets no direct benefit, they get the same wholesale price either way.
It's also Market standardization... which leads to a lack of competition. Which has a medium to high probability of sufficient retail sales, due to a lack of discounts and "deals" which provide momentum for sales and the possibility of impulse buys by the consumer
lord_blackfang wrote: Going back to the MSRP enforcement, you lot realize this policy exists entirely to protect the FLGS? The manufacturer gets no direct benefit, they get the same wholesale price either way.
Mandating the minimum price someone is allowed to sell your product for doesn't protect them from anything. It just removes their ability to sell below that price, and potentially removes their ability to compete with those who ignore the rules.
What it does do is allow the manufacturer to control the perceived value of their product, because potential customers won't see it deeply discounted as often.
Online discounters can always discount deeper than a brick and mortar store, on account of lower overheads. Ergo, limiting discounters levels the playing field in favour of brick and mortars. This isn't a complex concept.
Going back to the MSRP enforcement, you lot realize this policy exists entirely to protect the FLGS? The manufacturer gets no direct benefit, they get the same wholesale price either way.
I still don’t see that as protecting the FLGS. Not when I can get the same discount from my FLGS ( and pay local taxes 8ish percent) or get it for the same discount online from a discounter who has a points rewards program, free shipping and not pay taxes. Sure I have to wait longer (3-4 days), but I can usually preorder it from them and get it same day as my shop.
Manufacturers need to worry about their sales and not worry about local shops. If the local shops can grow the culture and get people in they will survive and thrive, there will be competition, but nothing is a given.
Online discounters can always discount deeper than a brick and mortar store, on account of lower overheads. Ergo, limiting discounters levels the playing field in favour of brick and mortars. This isn't a complex concept.
It's certainly a concept that gets trotted out every time this sort of topic comes up, but it runs smack into the problem that over the last couple of decades several of the largest online discounters have been brick and mortar stores.
But even ignoring that, it doesn't 'level' the playing field at all. If the online discounter has lower overheads and makes more profit as a result, that's still going to be true regardless of where you choose to set the price. It will also be true for any brick and mortar store than has lower overheads than others. It's not as simple as 'online discounters vs B&M stores'.
It's certainly a concept that gets trotted out every time this sort of topic comes up, but it runs smack into the problem that over the last couple of decades several of the largest online discounters have been brick and mortar stores.
But even ignoring that, it doesn't 'level' the playing field at all. If the online discounter has lower overheads and makes more profit as a result, that's still going to be true regardless of where you choose to set the price. It will also be true for any brick and mortar store than has lower overheads than others. It's not as simple as 'online discounters vs B&M stores'.
I don't care if an online discounter makes more profit than my local B&M when they both sell at the same price. I care that my B&M can't even make a sale if people can buy the same thing for 20% less online. And if the online discounter happens to be a B&M store that's halfway around the world from me, that's really not a factor for me. If I can't go there and play, they're an online discounter for all intents and purposes.
It's certainly a concept that gets trotted out every time this sort of topic comes up, but it runs smack into the problem that over the last couple of decades several of the largest online discounters have been brick and mortar stores.
But even ignoring that, it doesn't 'level' the playing field at all. If the online discounter has lower overheads and makes more profit as a result, that's still going to be true regardless of where you choose to set the price. It will also be true for any brick and mortar store than has lower overheads than others. It's not as simple as 'online discounters vs B&M stores'.
I don't care if an online discounter makes more profit than my local B&M when they both sell at the same price. I care that my B&M can't even make a sale if people can buy the same thing for 20% less online. And if the online discounter happens to be a B&M store that's halfway around the world from me, that's really not a factor for me. If I can't go there and play, they're an online discounter for all intents and purposes.
Then your FLGS should be competitive with the free market.
IMO, setting a minimum retail price is an absolutely legitimate business strategy for a manufacturer - and one that I expect most miniature manufacturers engage in.
On the other hand, people who are apparently company representatives getting into internet forum arguments about the practice is poor marketing, especially during a kickstarter. I'd recommend the good folks at Fireforge to get their marketing and PR house in order because they're not doing themselves any favour.
While I personally think setting a minimum retail price is perfectly legit, arguing about it here (or anywhere for that matter) can only serve to drive away some subset of potential customers for zero gain.
I don't care if an online discounter makes more profit than my local B&M when they both sell at the same price.
That's odd... I could have sworn that the fact that the B&M store has a lower margin was the whole problem you were claiming this was supposed to address...
I care that my B&M can't even make a sale if people can buy the same thing for 20% less online.
Ignoring for a moment this logic would mean that no B&M stores for, like, anything should still exist, there's always the option for your B&M store to choose to price their goods more competitively. They don't even have to match the online discount, they just have to make the difference small enough to balance out shipping time.
And if the online discounter happens to be a B&M store that's halfway around the world from me, that's really not a factor for me. If I can't go there and play, they're an online discounter for all intents and purposes.
So, wait - are we protecting the B&M stores, or are we protecting your personal interests? Because what it looks like you're saying is that everyone else should have to pay more if your chosen B&M happens to have higher overheads than everyone else.
lord marcus wrote: It seems that you cannot find a fault in my argument, so you bring up politics to redirect.
Your argument is plenty flawed. In a free market a manufacturer is completely free to put conditions on the sale of their goods - such as minimum retail prices - and they are completely free to stop selling their product to retailers and distributors who violate those clauses. This is common across pretty much any industry that involves the selling of goods that are not directly from manufacturer to consumers - from cars to soda to solar panels to beauty products to miniatures and so on.
And - in a free market - it is absolutely within the rights of a manufacturer to develop a strategy that involves preferential sales and pricing structures to various business partners - and if that means setting price floors (super common) or giving better prices to distributors or retailers they think will grow the market for their product (also super common) so be it. Conversely, distributors and retailers are within their rights to negotiate the best possible contracts or not buy product if they don't like the conditions of sale (the Walmart model). The degree to which any given company can influence the nature of their contracts due to their willingness to buy or sell the product and their desirability as a partner is called market power. Understanding market power and applying it appropriately is fundamental to success as a business entity in a free market.
A manufacturer (such as a miniature producer) cutting off supply to one retailer they don't like (such as an online retailer) in favour of another they like better (such as an FLGS) lies at the very heart of the free market, and it happens all the time. Whether any given such decision is a good idea comes down to the specifics and the result.
A customer deciding that they'd rather buy miniatures (potentially at a premium) at an FLGS where they can game is a rational and allowed act in a free market. An FLGS saying to a manufacturer "I won't carry your product if you can't guarantee me a profit margin of X% per unit, and stop us from being undercut by online discounters" is a perfectly legit move in a free market. And a manufacturer deciding that they'd rather have their product sold by the FLGS rather than online discounters because they think it'll grow their market faster is a perfectly legitimate business decision to maker in a free market.
The fault with your argument (such as it is) is that makes no sense in the context of the free market. FLGS influencing (directly or indirectly) the manufacturers to choke off supply to discounters is how the the free market works.
And this is why I dropped my pledge - because of the hypocrisy that belies the 'muh free market but extortion is somehow ok' strain of capitalist thought. Freedom isn't extortion no matter how many Orwellian arguments can be made about it.
ScarletRose wrote: And this is why I dropped my pledge - because of the hypocrisy that belies the 'muh free market but extortion is somehow ok' strain of capitalist thought. Freedom isn't extortion no matter how many Orwellian arguments can be made about it.
Kind of harsh, but above all, wrong. Unless they are "obtaining money, property, or services from an individual or institution, through coercion", whatever this is certainly is not extortion. The correct term would be "price fixing", I believe.
Personally, I have dropped my pledge because in the end I am only interested in one thing out of all the ones they are doing, so I'd rather wait for retail.
ScarletRose wrote: And this is why I dropped my pledge - because of the hypocrisy that belies the 'muh free market but extortion is somehow ok' strain of capitalist thought. Freedom isn't extortion no matter how many Orwellian arguments can be made about it.
This thread is out of control.
I decided I was in when i saw the sculpts, i am still in regardless of some clumsy forum posting.
Up €3,000 in one go on one new backer after back sliding all morning. I hope if it’s Fireforge they aren’t over extending themselves, if it’s a new retailer happy days if it’s someone else manipulating the total to get it funded and then will start backing the money out as the total grows they aren’t really doing anyone any favours and funds get locked in at the 48 hour mark as you can’t withdraw funds if it would cause a project to unfund.
This €8,000 jump in the last 2 days concerns me large jumps from single backers are one of my red flags for projects.
There might be a 48 hour bump there could also be a correction if people take out funds they had in for later goals. I still think this will fund but I’m sure how much beyond it will go.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: My local FLGS regularly has sales for specific lines, as well as holidays like Black Friday, Memorial Day, etc.. For example, two weeks ago they had Warlord and Reaper minis 25% off and a similar deal on Renedra bases.
wonderful, what's the name of this shop?
You gonna threaten to not deliver to them anymore like GW?
I'm just curious, our company was funded by someone that had experience in brick and mortar shop. What we know is that this small shops are the key to create more new hobbysts, more than clubs and gaming groups. Our company to avoid the creation of a bad market has deals and agreements that avoid sales to who discount too much our products. This means that when a brick and mortar shop or a distributor do something like a 25% discount on our products, will never get it anymore from us or from our distributors.
The idea that correct price to pay is the official price with a 25-30% discount is something wrong who damage only brick and mortar shops smallers. It does not damage distributors or companies.
So i don't care if this guy will take our products discounted (it is another question that we will not release anymore these figures without the funding of our campaign), my problem is that there is someone that is avoiding our market deals, creating a damage for other traders smaller and we don't know who is. I simply think that this guy has the hope that will find our products discounted in future...something that will not happen.
Guys do not say these things publicly please. Minimum resale price policy is a clear violation of EU competition law rules (see Regulation 330/2010). Please ask a competition lawyer relevantly.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: My local FLGS regularly has sales for specific lines, as well as holidays like Black Friday, Memorial Day, etc.. For example, two weeks ago they had Warlord and Reaper minis 25% off and a similar deal on Renedra bases.
wonderful, what's the name of this shop?
You gonna threaten to not deliver to them anymore like GW?
I'm just curious, our company was funded by someone that had experience in brick and mortar shop. What we know is that this small shops are the key to create more new hobbysts, more than clubs and gaming groups. Our company to avoid the creation of a bad market has deals and agreements that avoid sales to who discount too much our products. This means that when a brick and mortar shop or a distributor do something like a 25% discount on our products, will never get it anymore from us or from our distributors. The idea that correct price to pay is the official price with a 25-30% discount is something wrong who damage only brick and mortar shops smallers. It does not damage distributors or companies. So i don't care if this guy will take our products discounted (it is another question that we will not release anymore these figures without the funding of our campaign), my problem is that there is someone that is avoiding our market deals, creating a damage for other traders smaller and we don't know who is. I simply think that this guy has the hope that will find our products discounted in future...something that will not happen.
Guys do not say these things publicly please. Minimum resale price policy is a clear violation of EU competition law rules (see Regulation 330/2010). Please ask a competition lawyer relevantly.
Indeed... what Fireforge are doing is illegal in the EU. Seems like it's allowed in the US since a ruling in 2007 though, before that it wasn't allowed there either.
This. Also - about $100 from funding - grats to Fireforge. These aren't for me, but glad to see they're being made. Looking forward to see more races in the future
BobtheInquisitor wrote: My local FLGS regularly has sales for specific lines, as well as holidays like Black Friday, Memorial Day, etc.. For example, two weeks ago they had Warlord and Reaper minis 25% off and a similar deal on Renedra bases.
wonderful, what's the name of this shop?
You gonna threaten to not deliver to them anymore like GW?
I'm just curious, our company was funded by someone that had experience in brick and mortar shop. What we know is that this small shops are the key to create more new hobbysts, more than clubs and gaming groups. Our company to avoid the creation of a bad market has deals and agreements that avoid sales to who discount too much our products. This means that when a brick and mortar shop or a distributor do something like a 25% discount on our products, will never get it anymore from us or from our distributors.
The idea that correct price to pay is the official price with a 25-30% discount is something wrong who damage only brick and mortar shops smallers. It does not damage distributors or companies.
So i don't care if this guy will take our products discounted (it is another question that we will not release anymore these figures without the funding of our campaign), my problem is that there is someone that is avoiding our market deals, creating a damage for other traders smaller and we don't know who is. I simply think that this guy has the hope that will find our products discounted in future...something that will not happen.
Guys do not say these things publicly please. Minimum resale price policy is a clear violation of EU competition law rules (see Regulation 330/2010). Please ask a competition lawyer relevantly.
Indeed... what Fireforge are doing is illegal in the EU. Seems like it's allowed in the US since a ruling in 2007 though, before that it wasn't allowed there either.
It may be ilegall but I dare you find a discounted apple product. Legality means little when you have enough lawyers.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: My local FLGS regularly has sales for specific lines, as well as holidays like Black Friday, Memorial Day, etc.. For example, two weeks ago they had Warlord and Reaper minis 25% off and a similar deal on Renedra bases.
wonderful, what's the name of this shop?
You gonna threaten to not deliver to them anymore like GW?
I'm just curious, our company was funded by someone that had experience in brick and mortar shop. What we know is that this small shops are the key to create more new hobbysts, more than clubs and gaming groups. Our company to avoid the creation of a bad market has deals and agreements that avoid sales to who discount too much our products. This means that when a brick and mortar shop or a distributor do something like a 25% discount on our products, will never get it anymore from us or from our distributors.
The idea that correct price to pay is the official price with a 25-30% discount is something wrong who damage only brick and mortar shops smallers. It does not damage distributors or companies.
So i don't care if this guy will take our products discounted (it is another question that we will not release anymore these figures without the funding of our campaign), my problem is that there is someone that is avoiding our market deals, creating a damage for other traders smaller and we don't know who is. I simply think that this guy has the hope that will find our products discounted in future...something that will not happen.
Guys do not say these things publicly please. Minimum resale price policy is a clear violation of EU competition law rules (see Regulation 330/2010). Please ask a competition lawyer relevantly.
Indeed... what Fireforge are doing is illegal in the EU. Seems like it's allowed in the US since a ruling in 2007 though, before that it wasn't allowed there either.
It may be ilegall but I dare you find a discounted apple product. Legality means little when you have enough lawyers.
And that is gaming the system because you don't like it
Wow this thread got aggressively stupid real quick when FF got directly involved with a loaded shotgun and accidentally pointed it downwards at their own feet with their twitchy finger still on the trigger...
Also looks suspiciously like FF are "helping" their own project get funded.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I want to address the idea that the critics of this kickstarter have been unfair. Some in this thread seem to think that the creator-pledger relationship should be mostly one way and passive, that we should either pay up or shut up. But that is not what Kickstarter is for, and not even really what Fireforge wants it to be. Kickstarter is a platform for creators to publicize their projects, fire up potential customers, gain feedback, and then convince people all over the world fund their project if they find it worthy. Kickstarter is not a standard retailer-customer venue and it is a waste of time to approach it like it is. When creators come hat in hand to beg for money they had better prepare to sing and dance. If a company wants to reap the benefits of having a successful, high profile kickstarter campaign, they need to be willing to play the kickstarter game. And they need to realize that failure on Kickstarter is not measured by how many posters criticize your project but rather by how few are engaged enough to care. So put on your game face, because kickstarter is supposed to get rough. To paraphrase Q, there are rewards to satiate creators both subtle and gross, but it is not for the timid.
Fireforge is an established company with many plastic kits already on the market. This affects how potential backers see them. They can't expect to play in the small pool with Heresy Lab, Tre Manor, Slumbering Oblivion and the like. Fireforge fits in the big pool, with Mantic, CMON and even Shieldwolf. In the big pool, the rules are different. When Shieldwolf made their plastic orcs, they played the kickstarter game, took all kinds of criticism and feedback, offered value, and succeeded. When they made their Shieldmaidens, they played the kickstarter game and took their lumps. When Shieldwolf made their plastic Sisters, they saw they couldn't afford to play the kickstarter game, so they didn't launch a kickstarter. The lesson: know what you're getting into and walk away if you can't afford to play.
Now look at Mantic. Mantic wasn't any bigger than Fireforge when they started playing the kickstarter game. But Mantic played the game and played well. If you look at any of their campaigns, you'll see all manner of demands and harsh words, but you'll also see Mantic take it and play the kickstarter game. Sometimes Mantic screwed up big, but they always moved to make it up to the customers, to keep their customers placated. Mantic is simultaneously known as a serial bungler of kickstarters and as one of our most beloved kickstarter companies. Because Mantic always comes prepared to play the kickstarter game. The lesson: come prepared if you want to play the kickstarter game, and never lose your cool. Any screw up, even if it isn't your fault, is yours to atone for.
Look at CMON. I don't know if anyone is actually rooting for that company. I feel dirty every time I pledge with them. But CMON are masters of the kickstarter game because they play to win. They thrive on giving value for money. The lesson: the perceived value and exciting pageantry of a well-played kickstarter game will forgive many, many sins in the eyes of potential backers. Corollary: upstanding righteousness will win you no kickstarter game if you don't bring sufficient value for enough backers. And it becomes evident that Fireforge is lacking on that metric, too.
In conclusion, we have not been harsh to Fireforge. We have been trying to engage with Fireforge. We tried to help them play the kickstarter game. Instead, they scored an own goal and snarled at us when we gasped.
Great post Bob. The comparison to a pageant was apt. I think some creators underestimate the pageant part, which is why picking the right campaign length is important, and why momentum is so important to succeed. You can't have long intermissions without losing backer interest.
The lesson: the perceived value and exciting pageantry of a well-played kickstarter game will forgive many, many sins in the eyes of potential backers.
Sure, but as backers I think this is a stupid thing to encourage. Mantic has delivered some truly garbage product with several of their kickstarters, but they keep being successful with them because of the showmanship and pangeantry and everything EXCEPT making good products. So maybe we SHOULD start placing more value on getting exciting new products we want made a reality, and less on getting a big pile of cheap junk we'll never use.
Well Forgotten World has funded, it could well be from calling in to retailers they know and getting them to pledge, so it's not necessarily illegitimate.
The people here trying to defend minimum MSRP have done a great job making the other side look beyond 100% right. I don't see it as a terrible thing, for brand new products over say the first three to six months. But the idea that you're supporting a brick and mortar store by forcing them to do things instead of letting them run their own store... well I would have thought any adult would be smart enough to see that's a pretty obtuse statement. With Fireforge being a small company I think they had better get more savvy about business should they ever wish to grow, or just get used to distributing straight to eBay stores. Because it's gonna be one or the other.
And I'm also beginning to wonder if there just shouldn't be a sticky post explaining how threads about Kickstarters involve both positive and negative assessments and conversations. I mean, how many times did it really need to be explained in this thread about a little KS campaign? It's unproductive, low quality whining about the meta of the boards.
The lesson: the perceived value and exciting pageantry of a well-played kickstarter game will forgive many, many sins in the eyes of potential backers.
Sure, but as backers I think this is a stupid thing to encourage. Mantic has delivered some truly garbage product with several of their kickstarters, but they keep being successful with them because of the showmanship and pangeantry and everything EXCEPT making good products. So maybe we SHOULD start placing more value on getting exciting new products we want made a reality, and less on getting a big pile of cheap junk we'll never use.
Well, a lot of that value is relative. For example, I am very happy with all of Mantic's HIPS kits, with the old Men at Arms being their lowest point and still providing excellent weapons and bodies for use in conversions or with large bits boxes. If I had paid more than $1 per mini, that calculus would be different for me, and I understand why others feel differently. That's probably why Mantic gets so much negative feedback, which they handle well. People who are completely fed up with Mantic typically don't pledge any more and also typically don't engage in the Kickstarter game with them. People like me who find value in Mantic's products, even excluding their obvious misses, keep coming back because either the product is worth it or the Kickstarter experience is worth it.
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ecurtz wrote: How quickly would this thread have been locked if it had degenerated into fighting about GW's pricing rules?
I like the "retro" design of these and may back it to go with my Frostgrave stuff.
They have stated that the scale is different from most historical kits, which means the new Fireforge fantasy plastics won't match with the Frostgrave plastics. Their historical kits would probably work better.
Also, is locking threads over GW pricing a thing that happens on Dakka? That seems like more of a Warseer thing.
ecurtz wrote: How quickly would this thread have been locked if it had degenerated into fighting about GW's pricing rules?
I like the "retro" design of these and may back it to go with my Frostgrave stuff.
They have stated that the scale is different from most historical kits, which means the new Fireforge fantasy plastics won't match with the Frostgrave plastics. Their historical kits would probably work better.
Less words, more pictures :
They will look fine with Frostgrave miniatures. Maybe a bit bigger, but since in life there are small and big men, it can give a nice variation on that matter. Not a game breaking issue for sure.
I see you can't give up on the bone even when dropping the Kickstarter. To me, it really looks like the people having a grudge is not Fireforge or their backers, but you needing to find excuses and justifications for this sad thread.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Also, is locking threads over GW pricing a thing that happens on Dakka? That seems like more of a Warseer thing.
They seem to try and keep things on topic in News and Rumors. I was thinking more that and Rule 1 than pricing discussion per se. And yes, pricing is at least arguably on topic for a Kickstarter thread, but it's clearly past the point where it's productive.
I already mix some Fireforge historical parts with my Frostgrave, so the scale isn't an issue for me. Gives it that authentic 80s randomly sized limbs feeling.
I was debating purchasing their products (and backing their KS) but won't give money to a company I dislike - nor my FLGS, who have dozens of historical wargamers. The models look nice, but I disagree with their ethics.
I see you can't give up on the bone even when dropping the Kickstarter. To me, it really looks like the people having a grudge is not Fireforge or their backers, but you needing to find excuses and justifications for this sad thread.
Ultimately, it's about context and quality of posts. Dakka isn't a tightly-moderated, happy-posts-only, forum or facebook group. It's a much more open forum. It means you get much more open discussion, which includes both positive and negative comments on whatever the topic is, as long as it's kept civil. The discussion in this thread has actually been higher than in most, because it's only been a couple of people who have felt the need to stoop to insulting people who disagree with them - and if you need to polarise that characterisation, it's mostly been people on the "positive" side that have done that. Psychopomp and Bob's post in particular have been calm, rational discussion - which is entirely on-topic here.
If you wish to control the conversation, or keep it to positive discussion only, then there are ways to do that - you could set up your own forum where you're the admin/moderator (tapatalk for example), there are facebook groups, as noted earlier, or you could set up your own wordpress or blogger blog and control discussion in that way.
But that's not how this forum works. You don't get to moderate based on what you personally want from a discussion on Dakka. If people are trolling, badly, they get asked to tone it down. But the fact is that a lot is let alone here. There are still too-regular comments in AoS threads by (seemingly the same few) people that essentially amount to trolling because AoS killed WHFB. At that point, in my opinion, people are just trolling or pissing on others' enjoyment for their own enjoyment/selfish need to vent.
But that's not happening here.
Here, in this current thread for a currently-running KS that has been ...underwhelmingly managed, where a company rep did a moderately damaging but incredibly stupid thing, people aren't trolling. The "Negative" people have been (mostly) offering feedback about the campaign and engaging in (mostly) rational discussion with the (mostly) mature "Positive" people. There have only been a few outliers trying to turn it into a childish slapfight with "waaaaa, entitled, bitches" level posts.
Pricing is arguably on topic for a KS thread? Arguably?
Past the point of being productive? Do you think that the fifteen or so max active people in this thread over the last week or so have been especially "productive". It's a discussion forum. That's the product. Fireforge clearly listened to ...the numbers. Not people or their comments. Except Bob's, which one company rep did. Which was just
It shows they're watching/reading occasionally, even if not actively responding.
So, Fireforge guy - that was a fething stupid (and apparently illegal in the EU) thing to do. It won't make a difference in this campaign, but some people now won't purchase your products. You'll probably not ever actually notice it (how do you notice or not notice a few dozen - or even a few hundred boxes not being sold? Especially over a period of time). But the internet will remember, and it'll be a joke that people roll out from time to time to poke fun at you.
Oh, and it's probably worth pointing out - I'm not a "hater" or your "enemy". I'm a customer. I've purchased more than 20 boxes of your historical figures over the years, and my opinion of this KS was that while the models didn't grab me personally enough to tip the balance for that value proposition this far out (+ the great unknown of shipping) I've always said that I hoped the campaign would fund. After that stupid move, will I "boycott" Fireforge? Probably not, if the kits are good enough - but if there's a choice on what to purchase (and there always is - because time and money) then you've bumped the likelihood of me buying a thing from you or from another company (Conquest? Warlord? Gripping Beast? Perry? Northstar?) in the competition's direction. Which is a shame.
ecurtz wrote: How quickly would this thread have been locked if it had degenerated into fighting about GW's pricing rules?
If GW were actually posting in the thread trying to justify their pricing policies, probably more quickly than this one due to how quickly it would have turned into World War 3...
The discussion here is the direct result of communication from Fireforge, so the ensuing discussion is understandable, and fine so long as it stays civil.
Phobos wrote: This is one of the worst Kickstarters I have seen in a while.
20% off and I have to pay shipping and wait a year with no guarantee I will even get anything?
Oh yeah, sign me up lol. NOT.
20% off for lower pledges (like a single box), the higher pledges have a better discount... The Early bird being 51% off currently. Shipping is in May which is 8 months, not a year. Though like most kickstarters I would not be surprised if that shipping date slips. As far as the guarantee you will get anything though, isn't that kind of kickstarter in general? There is no guarantee on any kickstarter. Some (like CMON) are pretty much a given that you will get your stuff, but even those that you think will (like Soda Pop back in the day) don't necessarily mean they actually will. Fireforge being a pretty established company means it is more likely than not to deliver... but there is of course a chance they wont.
Look, I get that Lord Ekard making the statement asking about Who Bob's LGS was... not smart.... but I don't know if that one thing is enough to now warn people off of the whole company with statements like they don't have integrity and the like. People have been saying that the discount is not enough and they will wait till retail where they can get a bigger discount... Fireforge must be looking at this saying "our kickstarter is not doing well because people are offering bigger discounts than what we have been allowing" I am sure the response by Lord Ekard was an emotional one... not smart but I don't think its a big enough deal to write off the company as unethical.
I like the models, I think the discount is good enough for the level I am at (51% off). I don't know enough about the company to say they are unethical. So I am still in.
Phobos wrote: This is one of the worst Kickstarters I have seen in a while.
20% off and I have to pay shipping and wait a year with no guarantee I will even get anything?
Oh yeah, sign me up lol. NOT.
This is, succinctly, the problem with the kickstarter
Depending on the bundle, the discount is now/can be quite a bit more. But there is still shipping which may or may not resemble the current estimates by the time the product ships. Something to bear in mind, certainly, but that's not something unique to this campaign.
Phobos wrote: This is one of the worst Kickstarters I have seen in a while.
20% off and I have to pay shipping and wait a year with no guarantee I will even get anything?
Oh yeah, sign me up lol. NOT.
20% off for lower pledges (like a single box), the higher pledges have a better discount... The Early bird being 51% off currently. Shipping is in May which is 8 months, not a year. Though like most kickstarters I would not be surprised if that shipping date slips. As far as the guarantee you will get anything though, isn't that kind of kickstarter in general? There is no guarantee on any kickstarter. Some (like CMON) are pretty much a given that you will get your stuff, but even those that you think will (like Soda Pop back in the day) don't necessarily mean they actually will. Fireforge being a pretty established company means it is more likely than not to deliver... but there is of course a chance they wont.
Look, I get that Lord Ekard making the statement asking about Who Bob's LGS was... not smart.... but I don't know if that one thing is enough to now warn people off of the whole company with statements like they don't have integrity and the like. People have been saying that the discount is not enough and they will wait till retail where they can get a bigger discount... Fireforge must be looking at this saying "our kickstarter is not doing well because people are offering bigger discounts than what we have been allowing" I am sure the response by Lord Ekard was an emotional one... not smart but I don't think its a big enough deal to write off the company as unethical.
I like the models, I think the discount is good enough for the level I am at (51% off). I don't know enough about the company to say they are unethical. So I am still in.
This is why the discussion is allowed to continue and isn't being heavily moderated. (doesn't mean the mods aren't watching, as you've seen).
Calm, reasoned, rational discussion. Can't argue those Soda Pop/DUST&GF9 points. Those guys were hardly Defiance games or the HeroQuest 25 people.
Do remind as well that the representative of Fireforge clearly has difficulties to speak english. So some words he used may have been not that appropriate for you americans.
And yes, you can calmly talk about demolishing the company for your perceived outrage. But honestly, it seems quite clear to me that the people more vocal here have already picked their side (and got out of this Kickstarter for a while). So their advice to "uninformed" potential backers has to be warned to be biased.
On the other hand, I fully understand it's not interesting to pledge from the other side of the sea, since it's an European project and well...shipping taxes suck hard, yes. If it can make you feel better, do know that I'm often being hit the same when I want to pledge for a US based company's Kickstarter. You don't see me whining about how unfair it is...that's just how the real world works.
Sarouan wrote: Do remind as well that the representative of Fireforge clearly has difficulties to speak english. So some words he used may have been not that appropriate for you americans.
And yes, you can calmly talk about demolishing the company for your perceived outrage. But honestly, it seems quite clear to me that the people more vocal here have already picked their side (and got out of this Kickstarter for a while). So their advice to "uninformed" potential backers has to be warned to be biased.
On the other hand, I fully understand it's not interesting to pledge from the other side of the sea, since it's an European project and well...shipping taxes suck hard, yes. If it can make you feel better, do know that I'm often being hit the same when I want to pledge for a US based company's Kickstarter.
Sarouan wrote: Do remind as well that the representative of Fireforge clearly has difficulties to speak english. So some words he used may have been not that appropriate for you americans.
And yes, you can calmly talk about demolishing the company for your perceived outrage. But honestly, it seems quite clear to me that the people more vocal here have already picked their side (and got out of this Kickstarter for a while). So their advice to "uninformed" potential backers has to be warned to be biased.
On the other hand, I fully understand it's not interesting to pledge from the other side of the sea, since it's an European project and well...shipping taxes suck hard, yes. If it can make you feel better, do know that I'm often being hit the same when I want to pledge for a US based company's Kickstarter.
You Americans?
really?
Given the lil flag of a lot of people saying shipping taxes suck for this project, yes, them americans indeed. They live in America, I believe. That's why the flag is for, most of the time, just like my flag shows I'm from Belgium. You know.
It doesn't apply to you, of course, but well...I wasn't talking about you here.
1) Consumer A looks at Kickstarter and thinks it doesn't warrant enough for him to pledge...based on his own criteria.
2) Consumer A then says the Kickstarter sucks, it's a crap business, the value is garbage, why would he ever pledge, etc.
Unfortunately those two have nothing to do with eachother. A Kickstarter could be run with zero benefits...solely asking if people are interested in pre-ordering stuff, with no discount. That doesn't make it a bad Kickstarter. It makes it a Kickstarter that doesn't interest Consumer A. But, this is the internet, where Consumer A's opinion is put forward as some kind of fact. Consumer A may be basing his expectations off of other companies Kickstarters - but those have nothing to do with this company's Kickstarter. Rather than simply say "This doesn't interest me enough, or offer enough for me." and move on like an adult, Consumer A needs to rant and rave for pages and pages over why his value judgment trumps the validity of the Kickstarter to other buyers.
I didn't even buy into this Kickstarter, but I'm so tired of seeing people parade around as if their opinion matters.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Also, is locking threads over GW pricing a thing that happens on Dakka? That seems like more of a Warseer thing.
They seem to try and keep things on topic in News and Rumors. I was thinking more that and Rule 1 than pricing discussion per se. And yes, pricing is at least arguably on topic for a Kickstarter thread, but it's clearly past the point where it's productive.
I already mix some Fireforge historical parts with my Frostgrave, so the scale isn't an issue for me. Gives it that authentic 80s randomly sized limbs feeling.
Well, a Kickstarter campaign is a bit like a bazaar; creators hawk their wares directly to the customer, and negotiation is a key aspect of that. And since we know Fireforge is following the conversation, it is in our own interest to state clearly the price or value that would get us to hand over our money. Fireforge is learning a lot from this campaign and will almost certainly run another campaign later, so the conversation is still productive.
Randomized limb sizes are one of those things I find amusing in a single mini but tend not to splurge on.
And I still plan to buy some of their peasants, and maybe not-Lannisters or dwarfs when they hit American-style retail. Despite the drama, I still like Fireforge better than CMON.
Sarouan wrote: Do remind as well that the representative of Fireforge clearly has difficulties to speak english. So some words he used may have been not that appropriate for you americans.
And yes, you can calmly talk about demolishing the company for your perceived outrage. But honestly, it seems quite clear to me that the people more vocal here have already picked their side (and got out of this Kickstarter for a while). So their advice to "uninformed" potential backers has to be warned to be biased.
On the other hand, I fully understand it's not interesting to pledge from the other side of the sea, since it's an European project and well...shipping taxes suck hard, yes. If it can make you feel better, do know that I'm often being hit the same when I want to pledge for a US based company's Kickstarter.
You Americans?
really?
Given the lil flag of a lot of people saying shipping taxes suck for this project, yes, them americans indeed. They live in America, I believe. That's why the flag is for, most of the time, just like my flag shows I'm from Belgium. You know.
It doesn't apply to you, of course, but well...I wasn't talking about you here.
His words were read by all of us here. In English. They were a poor choice regardless of where they were read. A generalised statement about "you Americans" is pretty insulting to, you know, those of us not from there. It's (possibly) like if I decided to call you a Frenchman or something.
As for the rest - "Demolishing" the company? Hyperbole much? I'm sure they're in no immediate danger of going out of business, but the simple, blunt fact is that poor English or not (and his English was pretty bloody good, quite frankly) he made the choice to post that. It was a bad choice. There will be a reaction from different people, and the nature and severity of that reaction will vary. It won't put them out of business, but it's certainly not going to help them. He (and any others) would probably do well to not repeat that particular foolish choice.
Elbows wrote: The issue is the usual one with Kickstarters.
1) Consumer A looks at Kickstarter and thinks it doesn't warrant enough for him to pledge...based on his own criteria.
2) Consumer A then says the Kickstarter sucks, it's a crap business, the value is garbage, why would he ever pledge, etc.
Unfortunately those two have nothing to do with eachother. A Kickstarter could be run with zero benefits...solely asking if people are interested in pre-ordering stuff, with no discount. That doesn't make it a bad Kickstarter. It makes it a Kickstarter that doesn't interest Consumer A. But, this is the internet, where Consumer A's opinion is put forward as some kind of fact. Consumer A may be basing his expectations off of other companies Kickstarters - but those have nothing to do with this company's Kickstarter. Rather than simply say "This doesn't interest me enough, or offer enough for me." and move on like an adult, Consumer A needs to rant and rave for pages and pages over why his value judgment trumps the validity of the Kickstarter to other buyers.
I didn't even buy into this Kickstarter, but I'm so tired of seeing people parade around as if their opinion matters.
Except most people here are just saying 1) and not moving to 2).
As for your last line. Pot meet kettle. Why are you posting on forums at all in that case?
Sarouan wrote: And good luck finding these discounted zombie and living peasant plastic kits where you live, Lord Marcus.
Making a challenge of it? Knowing how Americans feel about bargain hunting, price fixing, and retailers, I fully expect "25% off Fireforge" to become A Thing.
Azazelx wrote:
Sarouan wrote: Do remind as well that the representative of Fireforge clearly has difficulties to speak english. So some words he used may have been not that appropriate for you americans.
And yes, you can calmly talk about demolishing the company for your perceived outrage. But honestly, it seems quite clear to me that the people more vocal here have already picked their side (and got out of this Kickstarter for a while). So their advice to "uninformed" potential backers has to be warned to be biased.
On the other hand, I fully understand it's not interesting to pledge from the other side of the sea, since it's an European project and well...shipping taxes suck hard, yes. If it can make you feel better, do know that I'm often being hit the same when I want to pledge for a US based company's Kickstarter.
You Americans?
really?
Nice baiting there but the American reference was already introduced earlier by one of your mates
Azazelx wrote:
Also looks suspiciously like FF are "helping" their own project get funded.
As for your last line. Pot meet kettle. Why are you posting on forums at all in that case?
In this sea of people moaning, there are sometimes useful information and news you don't get elsewhere. That's why I keep coming here, Dakkadakka still gives a nice point of view worldwide IMHO. You just have to adapt to the vibe. I'm not gentle either, I admit.
Elbows wrote: But, this is the internet, where Consumer A's opinion is put forward as some kind of fact.
I generally find the best solution for this is to stop interpreting clear statements of opinion as statements of fact...
I didn't even buy into this Kickstarter, but I'm so tired of seeing people parade around as if their opinion matters.
Discussion forums are a venue for people to share their opinions on discussion topics. If that's not something you find value in, it's possible that forums just aren't for you.
So, how about we move the topic back past how horrible it is that some people have opinions that differ from our own, and back to the Kickstarter?
Sarouan wrote: Do remind as well that the representative of Fireforge clearly has difficulties to speak english. So some words he used may have been not that appropriate for you americans.
You Americans?
really?
Nice baiting there but the American reference was already introduced earlier by one of your mates
No baiting. However, the onus is on the writer to ensure that their meaning is clear. The words that the Fireforge rep used were not "appropriate" for anyone and Sarouan's comment was (and is) easily interpreted as directed at anyone that took issue with the Fireforge rep's words.
Donomar wrote:
Azazelx wrote:
Also looks suspiciously like FF are "helping" their own project get funded.
Any actual proof of the snide aspersion above?
Proof? This isn't court. I'm allowed to think that something that looks suspicious is suspicious. There's no burden of proof on a thought. If you don't mind or care, then more power to you.
I didn't even buy into this Kickstarter, but I'm so tired of seeing people parade around as if their opinion matters.
As for your last line. Pot meet kettle. Why are you posting on forums at all in that case?
In this sea of people moaning, there are sometimes useful information and news you don't get elsewhere. That's why I keep coming here, Dakkadakka still gives a nice point of view worldwide IMHO. You just have to adapt to the vibe. I'm not gentle either, I admit.
That's fine. That question was clearly directed singularly at Elbows' amusingly hypocritical comment. I generally agree on Dakka, though seemingly every time I get involved in a thread, I find a person or two to be so obtuse or stupid, often without any redeeming features that I have to add them to my ignore list. Nature of the internet. Nature of forums. More people should do the same and save themselves some aggravation. (And even better if people I'm ignoring add me so there's even less I have to do with them!)
I don't agree with everything that you say, or even the way you say them, but you're not on that list.
With regard to the “self funding” I observed the total jump €5,000 in one go the other day and €6,500 today in 3 increments with only 1 new backer at that time how people interpret that is up to them but it’s something potential backers should be aware of if it’s not genuine (and I’m not saying it isn’t) it may affect the project creators ability to deliver if they end up with less funds than expected.
I’ve put forward 3 possibilities
A) Fireforge did it themselves in which case I hope they aren’t over extending themselves but putting in €11k to get €120k back I could see why they might do that plus they can default on the payment after the KS so there’s no real cost and the project is still deemed to be funded.
B) A few retailers did genuinely go in for some huge pledges 50 starters or 200+ boxes each that’s a big commitment of cash flow 8 months out but if so happy days it’s getting good retailer support
C) some backers are manipulating the total to get it funded and will then lower their pledge as it picks up momentum in the last 48 hours. Fireforge can see all backer pledges and can spot anomalous pledges. You can’t reduce a pledge in the last 48 hours if it drops the total below the funding level but you can default on payment.
Another option is some or all of the above. No idea which it is but there is €11,500 in there that’s out of the ordinary.
KS themselves also have the option to withhold funds if they suspect something is off if there’s a large default in payments that might trigger it. There is always a percentage of pledges that are never collected.
Personally I’m still in for a few boxes but had to scale back as I only have a €200 games budget this month and it’s got spread very thin. Zealot took some so did GW. Hopefully the PM is someway off and I might have extra funds then.
Sarouan wrote: But honestly, it seems quite clear to me that the people more vocal here have already picked their side (and got out of this Kickstarter for a while). So their advice to "uninformed" potential backers has to be warned to be biased.
Back to this - why does there need to be a "side"?
I (and others) have stated a bunch of times that we don't hate Fireforge. We don't hope the campaign doesn't fund. We're customers. But then not everyone finds the value in this particular project to be worthwhile, and then they explain why. I'll take Psychopomp and Bobs' posts for example - now think about them calmly and rationally. Do you think they're trolling, or are they offering feedback - as if their opinion (as customers) matters? They're hardly "u suk lol" posts, or "these fethers don't deserve to fund" posts. They're customer feedback.
Despite calls to keep the conversation wholly positive, an echo chamber doesn't achieve anything really. Endorphins due to reinforcement theory. As I've said, that's a think that can be done in groups set up for that purpose, but it's not the nature of discussion forums. Bob and PP may not be backing at this time, but they're somewhat engaged with the project as opposed to indifferent. As a company, would you prefer such non-trolly feedback from consumers - even if it wasn't all positive - or indifference?
The human interaction (albeit digitally) is also entertainment of a sort. Otherwise, they'd just read and lurk and probably not bother posting. And neither would you. Or I.
Phobos wrote: This is one of the worst Kickstarters I have seen in a while.
20% off and I have to pay shipping and wait a year with no guarantee I will even get anything?
Oh yeah, sign me up lol. NOT.
This is, succinctly, the problem with the kickstarter
I've found FireForge's historical kits on The War Store website at a 12% discount from MSRP. It appears that Miniature Market, Noble Knight and Brigade Games don't carry Fire Forge products. I've found Fire Forge kits on Ebay but the average price is usually MSRP or higher plus shipping. Getting the new fantasy kits at 20% off or better through the KS seemed like a better deal than waiting for retail.
Unfortunately I've had to drop my pledge but I did so because GW managed to time the relaunch of the LotR SBG with our kids reading the books so now we're playing the game at home so I unearthed all my LotR stuff and moved it out of the closet to a more readily accessible location to finish painting it all which prompted my wife to ask me just how many toy soldiers I had. Since I need to buy more MESBG kits for Xmas I dropped this pledge since it was mainly an impulse buy and I didn't back Tre's relaunched KS either (which unfortunately broke a string of backing a half dozen consecutive RBG projects).
I looked at the project. It seems....alright. But the value isn't good enough to suck the money out my wallet, and the product isn't unique enough to care if it doesn't fund.
That all having been said, hearing that they're playing the GW game with regards to supply/demand has given their name (previously a rather faceless bland one to me) a slightly sour connotation now. Nothing I'm going to actively boycott for, but as someone else said; if it's their 'generic plastic human soldiers' or someone like Shieldwolf's in future? I know which company I like more now. So there is that.
Biggest thing holding me back still is getting enough bang for my buck.
Bob really hit the nail on the head. There's a bit of showmanship and pageantry involved in running a successful kickstarter, not to mention that sense of excitement of seeing new bonus items unlock and get added to your pledge.
Always good to have more options out there, especially in plastic. Fireforge has created quite a few plastic historical kits which is great, always good to see more historical stuff especially in new periods. Generic plastic fantasy stuff is not as exciting in that regard since there is also Mantic and Frostgrave stuff out there, but I'm glad this funded. It's always good to have more options, and these look better than Mantics stuff and more like soldiers vs. the Frostgrave adventurers.
Glad it funded. I added and dropped twice but I'm glad these will hit the market. Just worried my interest of the moment won't be there in 6+ months so I'm cool with any additional cost I might pay at retail.
Hulksmash wrote: Glad it funded. I added and dropped twice but I'm glad these will hit the market. Just worried my interest of the moment won't be there in 6+ months so I'm cool with any additional cost I might pay at retail.
Yeah... If I am honest with myself, I have no need for these at this time. I can make use of them, but no real need. I am kind of a hoarder when it comes to minis. I fully expect to assemble all of them, out them in units with cool leaders that I name... and then put them on a shelf in my basement unpainted.
I tend to look at minis in kickstarters as stuff I "could" have a use for in the future, and would rather have them on hand if I do... That is why I dropped $1000 on Bones 4... Wow, that just depressed me.
Hulksmash wrote: Glad it funded. I added and dropped twice but I'm glad these will hit the market. Just worried my interest of the moment won't be there in 6+ months so I'm cool with any additional cost I might pay at retail.
I'm kind of in the same boat.
Pledged the starter box, was disappointed by the state of the rules that could be barely called a first draft, dropped down to the 8 box pledge and now down to just the two KS exclusives.
No doubt the zombies, folk rabble and Northmen will eventually find their way into my collection for various skirmisher, but right now, I better invest in Zealot Miniatures Backerkit and upcoming Relicblade KS.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Always good to have more options out there, especially in plastic. Fireforge has created quite a few plastic historical kits which is great, always good to see more historical stuff especially in new periods. Generic plastic fantasy stuff is not as exciting in that regard since there is also Mantic and Frostgrave stuff out there, but I'm glad this funded. It's always good to have more options, and these look better than Mantics stuff and more like soldiers vs. the Frostgrave adventurers.
Pledged the starter box, was disappointed by the state of the rules that could be barely called a first draft, dropped down to the 8 box pledge and now down to just the two KS exclusives.
No doubt the zombies, folk rabble and Northmen will eventually find their way into my collection for various skirmisher, but right now, I better invest in Zealot Miniatures Backerkit and upcoming Relicblade KS.
Yeah, the rules were disappointing.
I was hoping to see the old Warhammer Strength v Toughness table.
I am still happy with my Earlybird, I was thinking about bumping for the rulebook but the rules need so much work that I will wait for reviews.
7 hours to go currently at €139,545 resin mounted heroes at €140,000 so they are all but guaranteed and that's it barring any last minute change by Fireforge or an exodus of funds. Plastic heroes at €180,000 are to far a way, at the start I would have thought they would be a given but it didn't pan out that way. but Fireforge has a solid base to build on for the future.
I hope the 102 backers at €1 know that they won't get access to the pledge manager with just €1 they need to buy something now.
No sign of a final 48 bump but it got it's bump 6 and 4 days out €150,000 is still possible
DaveC wrote: 7 hours to go currently at €139,545 resin mounted heroes at €140,000 so they are all but guaranteed and that's it barring any last minute change by Fireforge or an exodus of funds. Plastic heroes at €180,000 are to far a way, at the start I would have thought they would be a given but it didn't pan out that way. but Fireforge has a solid base to build on for the future.
I hope the 102 backers at €1 know that they won't get access to the pledge manager with just €1 they need to buy something now.
No sign of a final 48 bump but it got it's bump 6 and 4 days out €150,000 is still possible
If they don't know that's going to be a lot of pissed-off pledgers
Not sure if that was in any of the updates or not. I certainly found out via the discussions. Still, if they don't allow €1 backers access to the PM (out of a similar sort of attitude that we saw here to Bob) then that's their choice, as ultimately they'll be leaving money on the table.
Still regardless of all the rest and even the potential funding shenanigans, it's good to see that this was successful in the end.
Oh, I've missed some drama here. Such sad, much disappoint. Well, there goes my interest in any project consisting of Fireforge miniatures - down the drain. Congratulations on reaching their goal, that's sure, but I'll never be their customer. Maybe I would not go as far as openly ridiculing anyone even mentioning their company name... I am lazy and not that vocal.
Considering the amount of KSes that lately fail to reach even much smaller goals this was still a remarkable campaign to watch.
Everything negative about Fireforge aside that's been said these last few pages, the do listen to backers.
Latest update has a change of heart about 1€ pledges: you can swap now in Pledge Manager to a higher pledge and late pledges will also be available.
We'll see if they allow for stretchgoals to be unlocked with this. Depends on the demand I guess.
So the whole "no PM" thing was an attempt to force the hand of backers who were on the fence, and now that it's funded (with those large pledges) they're not only going back on that - as I said - people not knowing and money left on the table regardless - they're also allowing late pledges of people.
I guess you can look at one or both as listening to the people, or you can view it a bit (or a lot) more cynically. The late pledges thing really puts it towards the latter.
Makes sense to allow €1 backers to up their pledge as they are nearly 10% of backers - they will be treated as late backers but the update doesn’t say anything about other backers changing pledge level.
We will also allow to who pledged supporter with just 1€ to join late pledge (we discovered that in the last 48hrs, most of them didn't know that we don't allow pledge changes like we wrote in the faqs)
No PayPal in the PM only credit card through Stripe - that shouldn’t be an issue for KS backers as you have to use a credit card to pay KS anyway.
Update in full the Wolf and Dragon shield icons are facing the wrong way they should face the enemy
Spoiler:
Greetings backers!
We are working to start the production as soon as possible. We still have to adjust and fix something (like someone saw about the faction shield, we did a mistake on the side where are turned the symbols). So, what will happen now?
As soon as possible we will launch our post pledge campaign, probably with pledge-manager.com
With Pledge Manager, you will let us know which products taken with your pledge and you will be able to pay for the shipping costs. Probably payments will be processed by Stripe, it will be not possible by Paypal.
With pledge manager we will open for a late pledge to all who asked in these days who didn't joined in time on the campaign.
We will also allow to who pledged supporter with just 1€ to join late pledge (we discovered that in the last 48€, most of them didn't know that we don't allow pledge changes like we wrote in the faqs)
Someone asked about folk rabble: we are still working on them, we are trying to obtain a plastic set that will be useful to get angry peasants/rabble levies and normal villagers to be used in roleplaying games. Naturally we want launch pledge manager only once we will have their layout to show, so everyone will be able to choose folk rabble among their boxes
The same for free frames: we are still in production progress, so the layout can suffer small changes. We will show the final layout of the frames in pledge manager so you will be able to get the frame you need
We are almost ready with starting beta of the rules, everyone who backed for forgotten world starter set or forgotten world rulebook will get an invitation and will receive a pdf with the beta rules.
If you have further infos please write here so we will be able to answer to everyone and everyone will be able to read our answer.
Greetings backers! Our work on folk rabble plastic set is now complete and following there are some example of the assembled models
The box will content enough parts to assemble normal villagers or rioters, perfect to create your levy unit or for your roleplaying games.
It has been not easy to create a multi-part kit like this, but you will be able to assemble your paesants entirely like workers or fighters, depending by your need.
We will plan after their release some other resin figures to expand your village taking inspiration by your suggestions (children for example).
Nice “dual” kit the extra bits should mix well with the zombies too.
KS is definitely 18 per box. It will be interesting to see the sprue layout to see how they got all the extras on 1 sprue although the other unit sprues are also packed with extras so shouldn’t be an issue. They can do 18 per box for zombies and Folk Rabble as it’s just 1 sprue 3 times - no command sprue.
Greetings backers! Our work on folk rabble plastic set is now complete and following there are some example of the assembled models
The box will content enough parts to assemble normal villagers or rioters, perfect to create your levy unit or for your roleplaying games.
It has been not easy to create a multi-part kit like this, but you will be able to assemble your paesants entirely like workers or fighters, depending by your need.
We will plan after their release some other resin figures to expand your village taking inspiration by your suggestions (children for example).
Nice “dual” kit the extra bits should mix well with the zombies too.
Well, I will be needing fethtons of those!
EDIT: Profanity erased, the filter didn't catch it ^^
Can we just take a moment...to celebrate how f-ing pissed off the woman sweeping the floor (bottom right) is? What a great figure. I will agree, any fantasy or historical gamer is going to definitely consider these. I think peasants capable of being armed, or not...is something the gaming community could absolutely find a use for.
I like the gal holding the tray. Think of that on a zombie with extra guts and heads on it like a waitress . Perfect for a zombie leader trying to entice its rabble lot forward into the next line of defenders.
Neither do I they are perfectly crisp and clear. but seriously they are on non-detailed areas so would be easy to remove without having to resort to greenstuff or loosing details.
So the extra plastic frame I get is just that...a single frame. So if I wanted cavalry I have the option of the horse sprue or the rider sprue. Not 3 whole models
Yep 1 frame, cavalry come on 2 frames you're better off using it to round up infantry I'm getting 3 boxes of Zombies (54) plus the extra frame of 6 rounds them up nicely to 60.
PM is out but there's a few issues being reported.
The Folk Rabble adds €8 supplement per box for later shipping which makes them €24 each more than the €20 MSRP quoted and makes them a better buy at retail. I've asked if the shipping supplement can be adjusted to account for multiple purchases and FF said they'd look into it. Failing that I'll just pick more from the current 6 boxes and get the Rabble online later. Otherwise shipping is close to estimates.
DaveC wrote: Yep 1 frame, cavalry come on 2 frames you're better off using it to round up infantry
Agreed. Since I'm only using this for skirmish RPG it isn't a big deal any way. Probably just go for a frame of Archers and use their box slot for something else.
Question. Do the stretch goals cost extra shipping and can I opt out of them? They don't really appeal to me and the pledge manager is confusing me.
You can't opt out of the stretch goals they are a permanent part of your pledge and are locked. I guess they listed them all separately in the summary so you can see exactly what you get. Your pledge total includes an additional credit which exactly covers the cost of all the stretch goals and can't otherwise be allocated.
On their own they are €9 in shipping (Europe) Each box you add then adds €1 in shipping. I guess even if you somehow could opt out there would still be a minimum shipping cost and you wouldn't really save anything.
Mine comes to €17 €9 base plus 8 boxes at €8 the EB pledge estimate was €15 for Europe so €17 is close enough.
Completed my pledge manager. They have to manually add the rewards if you do a double pledge. I did 2X Early bird. My shipping came out to 45 Euros to the US.
1 Early bird was estimated at 21 Euro so, the 2 add 45 is about what I was expecting.
Kinda peeved that shipping literally doubled from what was estimated for my location, from 7€ to 14€ for 4 boxes, so I'm definitely paying more than retail from Wayland or the like.
This was the kit I was most interested in for sure. I decided to wait as well, I selected things that I think will be ready to go soon(ish). Folk rabble will be a while...
I LIKE. These would make a fantastic basis for some Feudal World Imperial Guard! Add some Cadian Lasgun arms or some from Anvil Industry et voila! I'll take 8 Boxes plslol
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Posted by Fireforge GamesCreator
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Finally we are starting to ship the first products. Tomorrow, some of you will receive an email from our shipping company with the tracking for their parcel.
This shipping phase will take time. We are still waiting for the printing of some products by factories from different EU countries (like for example the living dead warriors, still not ready).
We will then start sending stuff to who backed for northmen range (and just some living dead) and as soon as we will receive the missing items we are waiting for (like the rulebooks, the cartoon boxes and tokes for the starter set etc) we will send the stuff also to the others.
Naturally, there will not be an official release in stores until the end of shipments but we will start to taking pre-orders of some of the new stuff on our webstore (not at the price taken on the kickstarter and that will not be shipped until the official release in stores as usual policy for our company).
We will be happy to read your opinions when the first of you will receive their models to understand if you are happy of our work with these figures.
We worked really hard to start shippings within may as announced and we are really satisfied that at the end we did it! 2 projects launched, 2 projects founded, 2 projects shipped following the estimate date announced fixing any iussues in few time.
Obviously, we will be here to help in any case, and we will continue to answer your emails. If you sent us an email in the past 2 weeks and you still haven't received an answer, don't worry we will read that email in following days. If you sent an email during the past months and you never got an answer, please send this mail again to info@fireforge-games.com to avoid any mistake
I was a late pledge on this, but so excited to get in on this. I think these will be excellent kits from all the sneak peaks. I went in for the Northmen and the Undead warriors.
"Hello Backers, DON'T PANIC! (you will excuse us for quoting Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy )
we are working to ensure that shipments proceed as quickly as possible, avoiding any sort of error or mistake in the assembly of your orders.
As far as possible, we are trying to send the goods to the first backers in order of time they participated in our campaign.
In the following photos you can see the preparation of the packages containing the requested material, when still open and finally closed and ready to be labeled after the last check carried out to be sure that all the requested goods were inside the right package.
Fireforge Games is a small company. We are not using external companies for the creation and packaging of goods (as do many other companies larger than ours), this because we want to be sure that the work is done like we want and that in case of errors the responsibility is only ours . We are guilty of a communication not like other kickstarters, we do not use external (as often happens) to constantly follow the project and respond promptly to all your comments, but we are always here and as soon as possible we respond to comments, emails, messages via social media and more. However, our priority will always be to process the orders received as quickly as possible, sacrificing timely communication even if this could annoy someone.
We are proud of the fact that compared to other campaigns by other companies, for the second time our company has kept its word, starting to ship the goods in the scheduled times. It was not at all easy, many things did not go as planned but further efforts by our team allowed this success.
This phase is extremely delicate. Many things can go wrong, many backers constantly require changes to their orders and we do our best to satisfy them hoping that the package in question has not already been entrusted to a courier. The fact that there were only 2 acknowledgments of receipt (not 1 as mentioned by some in the comments) does not mean that others have not received their own goods. Many backersstop following the kickstarter once they have received their order and do not share their experience.
Your patience (and your confidence) will be well rewarded: making miniatures is our job and our passion "
I have not received a shipping notice yet. DaveC was backer one, and I was backer three, but the resin shields we chose have caused a slight delay, Fireforge said that mine should ship next week, so here is hoping.
I'm all about the peasant zombies- wishing I had those now for use in Rangers of Shadow Deep. I had to make do with the dire Games Workshop zombies I had in storage :(
Yeah got an email that I under paid shipping. I paid 45 Euro for my 2 early birds which was already more than the shipping they quoted in the campaign. Now they want 35 euro more 3 weeks after shipping has started, more than 6 months after I filled out the pledge manager where you told me that my shipping was paid... and add insult to injury you reset my pledge manager and tell me to fill it out again, but only put one of my rewards in it because "double early bird" has to be manually loaded. This is a joke. WTF!!!
If my shipping really is 80 euro then I will be asking for a refund.
I got the email as well (as did a lot of others) but as it was just €1.50 extra I paid it. But I wouldn't be happy about my postage nearly doubling either.
They've handled this badly and should have notified backers in advance rather than sending a private message. I actually thought it was a scam email at first but all the details checked out in my saved PM link.
I get that miscalculating shipping can sink a project but there must have been a better cheaper way of compromising with international backers.
UPDATE: Fireforge say they didn't send it, Pledgemanager are now saying they will cover the extra shipping with an additional credit you just need to reconfirm your pledge something odd going on at Pledgemanager?
I was already charged double what the listed estimate was on the campaign page and now I am supposed to add another 50%.
Fireforge has been aware of the issue for a few hours now, if they didn't sent this email then their FIRST action should be sending out a KS update warning people not to pay. Not sitting around "investigating" while people who didn't check KS comments are inputting their credit card info again.
long story short they discovered that the PM under charged some backers by up to half of what their shipping costs. It appears that Pledge Manager did not input the correct shipping costs FF sent them. It's enough to put them under financial pressure so they asked Pledge Manager to seek additional Voluntary payments from backers to cover the short fall. Pledge Manager issued the email before FF had a chance to communicate this to backers and they omitted the voluntary part. Basically if you want to pay it pay it if not contact Pledge Manager and they will apply a credit to cancel the additional charge. This will not affect your shipping. If you paid and want it back contact Pledge Manager about it.
I'm a UK backer on a 3 box pledge = €1 more for me. I don't mind paying that. Although I feel for those in the US with massive increases.
The main problem: I know my credit card will now get put on cancel as my bank seems to *always* view $1.00/$€1.00 transactions from abroad as test payments for stolen credit card numbers.
I'm off to await my next payment anywhere being cancelled and a long phone call to the bank. :-(
They look very good but the 2 non wizard heroes look very out of scale with the plastics? I'll have mine tomorrow so I'll have a proper look then. I got this for plastics so the resin heroes don't bother me one way or another but it would be nice if they matched size wise.
I’d love to see some pics with a couple of standard GW figures to get a good sense of scale. Definitely planning on picking up some of the range when they hit retail
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: I’d love to see some pics with a couple of standard GW figures to get a good sense of scale. Definitely planning on picking up some of the range when they hit retail
Here is a dark elf executioner on a 30mm base, a manticores fish guy on 30mm, and 2 nemarti on 32mm bases. And a gw greatsworn in a 25mm base.
They're definitely "Oldhammer" scale (i.e. larger than some...but will all be dwarfed by AoS size increases). They showcased old Empire minis next to them when they launched the Kickstarter. Their chunky/heroic proportions are extremely GW-esque too (not a bad thing, personally). I want several boxes for kitbashing for dungeon crawls.
Elbows wrote: They're definitely "Oldhammer" scale (i.e. larger than some...but will all be dwarfed by AoS size increases). They showcased old Empire minis next to them when they launched the Kickstarter. Their chunky/heroic proportions are extremely GW-esque too (not a bad thing, personally). I want several boxes for kitbashing for dungeon crawls.
So, next to a Stormcast they are definitely tiny. But next to a chaos guy they aren’t bad. I put him on top of s 30mm base to that the base heights would be the same.
I backed this to get the not-Starks as my generic men at arms for D&D, and my peasants and zombie peasants for same. Through the zombie peasants might get redirected to serve as extra fodder for my Vampire Counts army.
I nearly pre-ordered the "peasants" box to find out to my horror it's the ZOMBIE peasants (but you can't see that unless you really zoom in). I would have been so freakin' mad if, in a few month's time, I got a box of zombies instead of (what I assumed I was ordering) the peasants...!!!
Kid_Kyoto wrote: So are the Revolting Peasants up for preorder or not?
No only the Living Dead Peasants (Zombies) are up for preorder, Backers are due to get the Folk Rabble (Living Peasants) late 2019 as they are in wave 2 so it could be early 2020 before they go on general release. Fireforge haven't called them anything other than Folk Rabble and the Zombies as Living Dead Peasants so from their point of view the website is correct but I can see how it would cause confusion.
I had placed a hefty order during the KS, but the pledge manager screwed it all up and I was kicked out!! Luckily, I was able to place all as a late pledge (with the KS exclusive goodies), but now that I no longer have a backer number, I have no clue when I will get mine - and, for insult to injury, I cannot even add comments on their KS page, since I am no longer considered a backer.
I just received my package. I only ordered the KS exclusives. The human is fine, but the Wight King is 3D printed with a FDM printer and then cast in resin. WTF? I could have done this myself with such a gakky quality.
Hanskrampf wrote: I just received my package. I only ordered the KS exclusives.
The human is fine, but the Wight King is 3D printed with a FDM printer and then cast in resin. WTF? I could have done this myself with such a gakky quality.
Looks like the cloak is the worst area, a wash will pick that texture up. I wonder if an extra heavy primer coat on that part will help.
I've been painting some printed prototype stuff for Wargames Atlantic and surprisingly to me the obviously printed areas don't look bad at all when painted up.
Have not yet looked too closely at the resin pieces, but am really liking the plastic northmen. Very basic, but done well, so easy to paint. Which is what I prefer. Wish there were more head options though.
Conquest is a totally different, much larger scale, so they will not be compatible with them.
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Hanskrampf wrote: I just received my package. I only ordered the KS exclusives.
The human is fine, but the Wight King is 3D printed with a FDM printer and then cast in resin. WTF? I could have done this myself with such a gakky quality.
Ouf that is really terrible. Why oh why would they even print in on FDM printer?
Hanskrampf wrote: I just received my package. I only ordered the KS exclusives. The human is fine, but the Wight King is 3D printed with a FDM printer and then cast in resin. WTF? I could have done this myself with such a gakky quality.
resin printers can have lines like that too if you don't place the part correctly on the build plate or if you don't cure the resin enough between layers. But this looks like just a normal cheap resin printer as you may not see them at the time of printing, and primer will cover them up, but the sub 2k printers aren't good for making parts for molds as there's always this imperfection in them that requires finishing work. I'm assuming this is what happened more then actual true print lines from a miss print.
The pic of the resins with the print lines seems broken for me - can anyone re-post or place another pic? I would like to see what i can expect to get.
MDSW wrote: The pic of the resins with the print lines seems broken for me - can anyone re-post or place another pic? I would like to see what i can expect to get.
AegisGrimm wrote: What the heck did they do? Just go right from the printer into making a master cast of it, with no bother to clean/smooth the lines?
Its possible. They were running late and looks like they rushed to be able to say they started shipping on time.
I really love the plastics, but the resins were not great. The Not-Mormont guy is the only one i kept. I put the Rob Stark head on my second copy. There are pics of both in this thread a page back. He was not as bad as the others.
Are the layers thick enough to show through primer and a few layers of paint? If so, I'd be willing to discuss a trade for an unwanted Digital Necromancer.
My issue has been resolved, Fireforge refunded the money for the undead guy. So if you're unsatisfied too, write them an email with pics. Let them know that this quality is not okay.
I recieved my pledge the other day. Overall I am pretty pleased with it. I even went a bit crazy and made a 40 minute video review of the kits and stuck it up on youtube, lol.
Some of the resin characters look badly 3D printed which is disappointing. There are layer lines which look like they would show through a paint job and catch washes. Does anyone have a suggestion on how to fix that? I was thinking of painting a thin layer of some kind of filler like green stuff to fill the lines. Or maybe sanding it. I suppose I could get refund but I would rather have a replacement, as I still want the models.
SolarCross wrote: I recieved my pledge the other day. Overall I am pretty pleased with it. I even went a bit crazy and made a 40 minute video review of the kits and stuck it up on youtube, lol.
Some of the resin characters look badly 3D printed which is disappointing. There are layer lines which look like they would show through a paint job and catch washes. Does anyone have a suggestion on how to fix that? I was thinking of painting a thin layer of some kind of filler like green stuff to fill the lines. Or maybe sanding it. I suppose I could get refund but I would rather have a replacement, as I still want the models.
If they haven't done a proper master in the first place, there is no way they are doing one now, so each replacement will be just as bad. Get your money back and then try to save what you can of the bad models.
My shipment arrived today. You guys weren't kidding about those lines! The 3d printed Heroforge figure I ordered had less pronounced lines than these FF character models. At least the plastics are fine. While I will try to make do with the character models, I will express my distaste; they are making it easy as a "Rate your transaction with Fireforge Games" just popped up as I started typing.
Bought a box of the Undead Peasants from Cavalier Books in the UK and they really are nice. They are going to make a lovely unit of Zombies for Kings of War.
Wow, never really saw a comparison before. Those would really make for some beautiful Old World setting Empire humans in a pinch, or Bretonnian Men at Arms/Archers.
Nice. Certainly getting a box of these. I'm finding the Forgotten World stuff serves my old world needs better than the GW lines.
Same here, I've been using them along with older GW for Rangers of Shadow Deep.
I've been meaning to pick that book up.
I've been mixing my Northmen from the Kickstarter with Empire heads with some success. I like the "grimdark" aspect of the Old World, but it got a little too over the top toward the end. I prefer models with far less bling.
Yeah, Fireforge is looking like the best of "fantasy....just". The undead models are looking good, the peasants are great, etc. Really digging the aesthetics. Nicer materials/sculpts than Mantic, etc. Huge fan. Waiting on a box of zombies to show up!
The Northmen warriors are lovely, chunky models. Definitely fantasy/AoS scale rather than Fireforge's historicals.
I find the head to torso join a bit clumsy, and the mould lines are more prominent than with many other plastics- although in fairness, with the Northmen warriors at least it's obvious that where the lines would be was thought about- you won't lose any details shaving them off.
I'm using mine- with the odd conversion here and there and Warhammer thickness bases- as chaos 'marauders'- the mortal retinue of a nurgle lord. Very happy with them overall
It looks like the undead peasants have a body with neck and separate head, while the living ones a head with neck and separate body.
It's probably to make each kit looks better on its on but feels a bit like a missed opportunity to not make them fully compatible.
Gallahad wrote: WHY? Why do they do stuff like that? They were already on the bottom range of acceptable heights for modern fantasy miniatures.
Do stuff like what?
Make fantasy kits compatible with 28mm historicals rather than other fantasy kits. Or make kits within the same line different heights.
The comparison there looks to be between a male undead soldier and a female peasant, and as pointed out the peasant has no neck while the soldier does.
Unless they randomly re-scaled the CAD files before cutting the molds for the living peasants relative to the dead ones, they're not scaled to historicals, they're a pretty much spot-on match for GW Empire. Certainly a better match than other plastic stuff floating about like Frostgrave.
I actually saw a rumour floating about that is very probably just some numpty screaming nonsense into the void, but in case anyone from FF is browsing here: is it true you guys are working on a Skeletons box in the Forgotten World scale?
Because depending on a few details, that is something I would be *extremely* interested in.
Some pics on the Forgottenworlf face book page of the orcs they are planning. They had said these will be a plastic kit with both male and female orcs in the same box. They had Ilos said previously there will be an infantry set and a beast riders set. The orcs on their world are big and the miniatures will be primaris size.
I like that they are primaris sized it sets them apart. Overall I like them the fur needs work it’s too chunky it needs to be finer but I’d get a box or 2. I assume it will be 12 to a box like the other ranges 4 male and 2 female per sprue. €20 per box.The quality of the fantasy plastics is great overall.
I am a fan of their Northmen (especially the Folk Rabble) and Living Dead (especially Peasants) lines but these are not to my taste (and yes, I like GW orcs/orks with no females).
It might just be old trauma from D&D but yeah, once you decide that Orcs (etc) have women and children and villages and such then you create situations where our 'heroes' adopt genocidal tactics against a whole species.
I kind of prefer the idea of evil wizards make them come out of the ground.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: It might just be old trauma from D&D but yeah, once you decide that Orcs (etc) have women and children and villages and such then you create situations where our 'heroes' adopt genocidal tactics against a whole species.
I kind of prefer the idea of evil wizards make them come out of the ground.
I hear what you are saying, but I also like to think that the Orcs are also trying to genocide humans, so it is kind of a "genocide or be genocided" kind of situation, which only ever gets resolved with violence.
Back on topic, I really dislike those! I'm not sure if it is the size or the style but they are not working for me.
Looking good to make it past the line now which is great for Fireforge
toy soldiers I had. Since I need to buy more 
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