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Bob's not the only one who'd buy up a bunch of nicely sculpted Asian historicals. I've been bemoaning the lack of modern scale samurai for quite some time.

I've also picked up Fireforge stuff at 25% off online. It's not often but it's not that uncommon either.

Bob's store also tends to discount closer to 20% as a one time thing, and it's not very often.

The deep discounts are often door busters on Black Friday for a limited amount of hours, having been there myself.

It does sound rather ominous (and possibly a bit petty too), doesn't it?

Odd...

Donomar wrote:

Spoiler:

Psychopomp wrote:Better. They could still win me back if they do this a few more times. I'm very frustrated, because I want to be a part of this, but it's also got to be worth my while. Maybe an Early Bird instead of the Starter Box. I honestly don't care about the game, it's the minis that interest me, and the freedom of choice could help.

'If they do this a few more times' Unreal behaviour.

Psychopomp wrote:No one has made any such claim that I've seen. Certainly not me, if that's who you've referred to.

I'm just one potential backer who gave feedback. And when I left, I explained why. Fireforge can keep adding value and maybe bring me back in but it'll be their decision to do so. I don't dictate their actions any more than they can dictate what I do with my money.

But there's still a chance in the next two weeks they'll keep adding some value and hit a threshold where I'll come back in. But there's a chance they won't. There's a lot of competition in this market right now, and they don't just have to offer me a better deal, they've got to offer me something I think beats other deals on offer.

You're not the same as a potential new backer. You joined it based on what was offered from the get go, have added plenty of 'contribution' in Fireforge's KS comment section, made a declaration of withdrawing and now are making a big deal about the level of value not being sufficient yet for you to come back in.

If you want to back Fireforge's Kickstarter please do so. If you don't want to back it then that's fine too. But please don't join and add any negativity into their comments section, Cheers. Oh and not derailing the discussion going forward here would also be cool.

Psychopomp wrote:
The sad truth is, if I can get a few of these boxes at 10% off (even with your jacked-up exchange rate to cover the international shipping) after retail and free shipping, then it'll be easier for me to pick up a few boxes as I need them later. And I'll probably end up spending even less than I would have on an awesome crazy deal, even without the kickstarter discount. You failed to offer a deal (or event just an event...this Kickstarter has been very fire-and-forget on Fireforge's part) that overrode my "rational customer" thinking, so I didn't get crazy enthusiastic and go in harder than I intended to in my excitement.

THAT is what the crazy-deal Kickstarters are about. They're fun and exciting and override the customer's rationality. That's what Mantic and CMON are good at. "Why settle for the rulebook and one force, when for just $75 more you get the rulebook, both new factions, AND this third faction made entirely of old product we've already paid the production costs for from the last kickstarter?" Value and pizzazz, and this Kickstarter failed me (oh, I'm sorry, IN MY OPINION AND MY OPINION ALONE, WHO IS THE ONLY PERSON I SPEAK FOR ON THE INTERNET, THAT BEING ME, ALONE, JUST ONE GUY WITH JUST AN OPINION) in both. And now Fireforge is cruising a discussion forum thread on it to try and ferret out maximum discount violators rather than trying to...I don't know...stir up some enthusiasm for their Kickstarter. That still hasn't actually funded right now.

But that's fine. It means I still have this month's hobby budget to spend, and Crooked Dice is starting their 7TV Apocalypse Kickstarter tonight. I bet that one will be exciting...

If you are so unhappy with Fireforge's Kickstarter, as you have previously indicated, then why the need to try and drag it down with your negativity? As I outlined previously you 'joined it based on what was offered from the get go, have added plenty of 'contribution' in Fireforge's KS comment section, made a declaration of withdrawing and now are making a big deal about the level of value not being sufficient yet for you to come back in'. Many would disagree with you on Fireforge offering a 'deal' and in fact they have reacted very positively to 'POSITIVE' customer engagement with many people commenting on this in the KS comment tread.

If this Kickstarter is not sufficiently 'crazy-deal' for you that's cool but there is zero obligation on you to buy into it. And any attempt to twist things to make out that Fireforge are acting nefariously on the tread are dishonourable; they have acted very pro-actively in regards to customer engagement and generating enthusiasm, particularly on the KS comment section. Unfortunately the kinds of tangents being opened up here make things a little more difficult..or possibly pointless in that regard which is unfortunate.

Yes we all know it still hasn't funded...but it's near and I think many wish them the best of luck in funding with every success going forward.

 Lord Ekard wrote:

 Psychopomp wrote:
But Bob's not talking about ongoing dicounts, he's talking about special event sales. And the timing and blatancy of pushing for the info needed to sanction Bob's FLGS seems like a poor PR move during a Kickstarter campaign that's looking like it'll need the final 48 hour push just to make basic funding.

But back on topic, I think Fireforge may also be underestimating the impact that the Kickstarter shipping estimates are having on the (KS + international shipping) vs (retail + domesteic/free shipping) equation for folks in the RoW regions.

it's not something new made for bob's evil genius shop. It's our trader policy from the far 2012. What you don't understand is that final customer will always pay the shipping costs to get the products: this is why gw and all the companies have different trader form with different currencies. Just because you don't see that it does not mean that you are not paying more a product to cover shipping costs of the products. Bob will buy the models in US? Will pay them with a different exchange rate by the real exchange rate. Bob can get models discount in a good price only by resellers who do special events once or from other final customers. Shops who sell product with a 30% discount are working for a 3% net profit and this is really sad.

I had backed your KS for a few boxes to use for an Imperial Guard conversion, however now that I've seen in writing that you advocate manufacturers telling people what they can or cannot do with products that have already been paid for I cannot in good conscience support your efforts.

I'm voting with my dollar, and it's no longer going to be a dollar you get.

 Donomar wrote:

*snip the usual*

Feedback explaining why Fireforge lost me and hasn't gotten me back isn't negativity. It's feedback. I'm sorry it doesn't jive with what you want to see in a big happy thread about this big, slow to fund Kickstarter, but it is what it is. I was excited by the previews of the miniatures, joined early in the hopes of seeing Fireforge but something special into this campaign, and was disappointed. And when it became apparent that little was going to change, I gave them warnings and feedback. When I left, I have them explanations and feedback. I'm sorry that for some reason this disturbs you, but I haven't said anything about hoping they don't fund. I haven't said others shouldn't have funded, if they feel its a good enough deal. I've wanted - at every turn - to see Fireforge be more proactive, make this Kickstarter more exciting, and maybe have a chance to fund more than one stretch goal...if they get that far. I have wanted nothing more than to see them do better, and have tried to make the case for how I think they could do that. I'm glad that this campaign has been "good enough" for you. I, however, think it could have been amazing, and I have been frustrated that Fireforge has limited themselves to some mediocre deals on pricing and some very basic question-answering on the Kickstarter comments.

I have tried to point out that this Kickstarter has (and continues to) move much slower than others of a similar size and goal, and explain why I think why. I've been discussing the situation. On a discussion board.

But so obviously trying to get Bob to name names to hit his store on maximum discounts? I'm not suggesting anything nefarious, I'm outright saying that given the slow campaign, maybe there's better uses of wargaming message boards right now, you know?

-removed by insaniak-

They confirmed in the comments that you can get more than one early bird in the same pledge. So I am at 2 early birds for 240E. That gets 2 free packs of shields, 2 free boxes, 2 free sprues, and double the characters that have been unlocked. Fingers crossed this funds....

Good job witch hunting stores who are carrying product there, fireforge

And good luck finding these discounted zombie and living peasant plastic kits where you live, Lord Marcus.

This campaign will still have a 48 hour bump, that has not gone away from Kickstarter. That should get it well over 130k Euros.

I find it a bit odd Fireforge have a policy that forbids discounting below 20% on any of their product FOREVER, I can't imagine many stores would be willing to agree to that without some kind of buyback program, but then again I've never seen any of the stores around me carry their stuff. Now I know they never will. Unless you're GW or Magic cards, you wouldn't be worth it. But I would shy away from asking anyone to provide information to be used against their local store, what if the store found out and blamed them? Or the person in question felt bad about causing a situation? And of course, it doesn't look good to potential customers.

 Sarouan wrote:
And good luck finding these discounted zombie and living peasant plastic kits where you live, Lord Marcus.

Making a challenge of it? Knowing how Americans feel about bargain hunting, price fixing, and retailers, I fully expect "25% off Fireforge" to become A Thing.

 Sarouan wrote:
And good luck finding these discounted zombie and living peasant plastic kits where you live, Lord Marcus.

You're talking to someone who has 10,000 points of Undead for kings of War. Plus there are many other zombie kits I could use or even human kits with zombie heads. The Mantic Games omby kit for example is very modular

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


Making a challenge of it? Knowing how Americans feel about bargain hunting, price fixing, and retailers, I fully expect "25% off Fireforge" to become A Thing.

Oh, given what your president is doing, I'm not sure you'll find much discount when taxes will hit the exported products from the Old World, you know.

But like I said, good luck hunting that. Like Fireforge said, if the sellers don't see a profit to sell something, they just won't sell it.

 lord marcus wrote:


You're talking to someone who has 10,000 points of Undead for kings of War. Plus there are many other zombie kits I could use or even human kits with zombie heads. The Mantic Games omby kit for example is very modular

Good, be happy with those then.

lord marcus wrote:Good job witch hunting stores who are carrying product there, fireforge

Man the entire way the 'witch hunting' angle in this tread has unfolded is a class example of baiting and twisting.

BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:
And good luck finding these discounted zombie and living peasant plastic kits where you live, Lord Marcus.

Making a challenge of it? Knowing how Americans feel about bargain hunting, price fixing, and retailers, I fully expect "25% off Fireforge" to become A Thing.

Ah come on, no need for that us vs them stuff!!

There was not an update about it, but Fireforge added their plastic weapons as add-ons. You can get lances and Bardiches etc...

That's about a quarter per halberd

Is that good or bad? I like the spears well enough so wont be adding any of the weapons. I will be looking for some alternate heads for commanders and maybe an elite unit... Might make some females with some Statuesque heads as well.

 Lord Ekard wrote:
This means that when a brick and mortar shop or a distributor do something like a 25% discount on our products, will never get it anymore from us or from our distributors..

Nothing says 'We support your business!' better than refusing to sell to that business...

 Lord Ekard wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:

 Lord Ekard wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
My local FLGS regularly has sales for specific lines, as well as holidays like Black Friday, Memorial Day, etc.. For example, two weeks ago they had Warlord and Reaper minis 25% off and a similar deal on Renedra bases.

wonderful, what's the name of this shop?

You gonna threaten to not deliver to them anymore like GW?

I'm just curious, our company was funded by someone that had experience in brick and mortar shop. What we know is that this small shops are the key to create more new hobbysts, more than clubs and gaming groups. Our company to avoid the creation of a bad market has deals and agreements that avoid sales to who discount too much our products. This means that when a brick and mortar shop or a distributor do something like a 25% discount on our products, will never get it anymore from us or from our distributors.
The idea that correct price to pay is the official price with a 25-30% discount is something wrong who damage only brick and mortar shops smallers. It does not damage distributors or companies.
So i don't care if this guy will take our products discounted (it is another question that we will not release anymore these figures without the funding of our campaign), my problem is that there is someone that is avoiding our market deals, creating a damage for other traders smaller and we don't know who is. I simply think that this guy has the hope that will find our products discounted in future...something that will not happen.

I'm just here to say this is an incredibly, INCREDIBLY stupid PR move by a company. You really need to rethink this approach.

Yep, there goes my pledge. Was willing to pay for the excessive lead time and harsh shipping to support a company I like, that's no longer the case.

Wait, isn't that the same thing that apple, Nintendo, Asmodee (and thus FFG), Privateer, and countless others do? Also every book publisher also sets a max discount price and they do enforce it.

We're long past this being a new thing.

When rich, powerful companies abuse their customers and front line retailers, it doesn't mean we have to like it, and it doesn't make it right. Smaller companies shouldn't be surprised that they don't have the clout or advantage to get away with it--when they try they just piss people off.

I understand people not liking it but I pretty much feal like this is the same song-and-dance that happens every 4-6 months. Someone sets up a max discount like CMoN. People here get upset and say they're done with the company, nothing really changes as ultimately no one really cares and just like venting on a forum.

Doing so must not hurt overall sales as more and more small companies are doing this, it's not just something for the big players.

I suspect it has more to do with most small companies not really complying, and custom continuing as usual.

Although I understand The War Store and MM have been badly hit with diminishing sales since they slowed the discount train. It's almost like customers just aren't interested in these products at the prices manufacturers insist on.

That maybe the case (and probably is) but I vote with my wallet and my vote says no. Will it cause the world to quake? No. Will I go on an internet crusade with flaming e-torches? No. But I am not so desperate for toys that I have to give money to companies whose policies I don't like (or whose communication I find distasteful). YMMV.

I want to address the idea that the critics of this kickstarter have been unfair. Some in this thread seem to think that the creator-pledger relationship should be mostly one way and passive, that we should either pay up or shut up. But that is not what Kickstarter is for, and not even really what Fireforge wants it to be. Kickstarter is a platform for creators to publicize their projects, fire up potential customers, gain feedback, and then convince people all over the world fund their project if they find it worthy. Kickstarter is not a standard retailer-customer venue and it is a waste of time to approach it like it is. When creators come hat in hand to beg for money they had better prepare to sing and dance. If a company wants to reap the benefits of having a successful, high profile kickstarter campaign, they need to be willing to play the kickstarter game. And they need to realize that failure on Kickstarter is not measured by how many posters criticize your project but rather by how few are engaged enough to care. So put on your game face, because kickstarter is supposed to get rough. To paraphrase Q, there are rewards to satiate creators both subtle and gross, but it is not for the timid.

Fireforge is an established company with many plastic kits already on the market. This affects how potential backers see them. They can't expect to play in the small pool with Heresy Lab, Tre Manor, Slumbering Oblivion and the like. Fireforge fits in the big pool, with Mantic, CMON and even Shieldwolf. In the big pool, the rules are different. When Shieldwolf made their plastic orcs, they played the kickstarter game, took all kinds of criticism and feedback, offered value, and succeeded. When they made their Shieldmaidens, they played the kickstarter game and took their lumps. When Shieldwolf made their plastic Sisters, they saw they couldn't afford to play the kickstarter game, so they didn't launch a kickstarter. The lesson: know what you're getting into and walk away if you can't afford to play.

Now look at Mantic. Mantic wasn't any bigger than Fireforge when they started playing the kickstarter game. But Mantic played the game and played well. If you look at any of their campaigns, you'll see all manner of demands and harsh words, but you'll also see Mantic take it and play the kickstarter game. Sometimes Mantic screwed up big, but they always moved to make it up to the customers, to keep their customers placated. Mantic is simultaneously known as a serial bungler of kickstarters and as one of our most beloved kickstarter companies. Because Mantic always comes prepared to play the kickstarter game. The lesson: come prepared if you want to play the kickstarter game, and never lose your cool. Any screw up, even if it isn't your fault, is yours to atone for.

Look at CMON. I don't know if anyone is actually rooting for that company. I feel dirty every time I pledge with them. But CMON are masters of the kickstarter game because they play to win. They thrive on giving value for money. The lesson: the perceived value and exciting pageantry of a well-played kickstarter game will forgive many, many sins in the eyes of potential backers. Corollary: upstanding righteousness will win you no kickstarter game if you don't bring sufficient value for enough backers. And it becomes evident that Fireforge is lacking on that metric, too.

In conclusion, we have not been harsh to Fireforge. We have been trying to engage with Fireforge. We tried to help them play the kickstarter game. Instead, they scored an own goal and snarled at us when we gasped.

Heh, fair enough.

Going back to the MSRP enforcement, you lot realize this policy exists entirely to protect the FLGS? The manufacturer gets no direct benefit, they get the same wholesale price either way.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Going back to the MSRP enforcement, you lot realize this policy exists entirely to protect the FLGS? The manufacturer gets no direct benefit, they get the same wholesale price either way.

Mandating the minimum price someone is allowed to sell your product for doesn't protect them from anything. It just removes their ability to sell below that price, and potentially removes their ability to compete with those who ignore the rules.

What it does do is allow the manufacturer to control the perceived value of their product, because potential customers won't see it deeply discounted as often.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Heh, fair enough.

Going back to the MSRP enforcement, you lot realize this policy exists entirely to protect the FLGS? The manufacturer gets no direct benefit, they get the same wholesale price either way.

It's also Market standardization... which leads to a lack of competition. Which has a medium to high probability of sufficient retail sales, due to a lack of discounts and "deals" which provide momentum for sales and the possibility of impulse buys by the consumer

 insaniak wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Going back to the MSRP enforcement, you lot realize this policy exists entirely to protect the FLGS? The manufacturer gets no direct benefit, they get the same wholesale price either way.

Mandating the minimum price someone is allowed to sell your product for doesn't protect them from anything. It just removes their ability to sell below that price, and potentially removes their ability to compete with those who ignore the rules.

What it does do is allow the manufacturer to control the perceived value of their product, because potential customers won't see it deeply discounted as often.

Online discounters can always discount deeper than a brick and mortar store, on account of lower overheads. Ergo, limiting discounters levels the playing field in favour of brick and mortars. This isn't a complex concept.