Wow, I cant tell you how long I've been waiting for some proper looking fantasy human soldiers, and even more-so, heavy armored infantry. These models are fantastic and I fear my bank account will be sorely tested in the coming weeks.
Is there any way we could get scale shots next to LOTR minis?
Is there any way we could get scale shots next to LOTR minis?
i'm sorry i can't, i haven't them here but i can confirm you that they don't scale well with LOTR miniatures, while are perfect in the scale of warhammer fantasy
Is it limited in terms of number of slots or time?
Is there any way we could get scale shots next to LOTR minis?
i'm sorry i can't, i haven't them here but i can confirm you that they don't scale well with LOTR miniatures, while are perfect in the scale of warhammer fantasy
Is it limited in terms of number of slots or time?
Most campaigns stopped doing limited slot Early Birds a while ago, and with good reason since it makes backers angry. Some still do time-limited Early Birds which is slightly better at least.
Much as I'd love to be wrong I think that 1000 early bird slots for this will give people who want to back plenty of time to do so
It's not going to be a CMON style 30 seconds and done (and even then they stopped doing them as they didn't need them not because backers didn't like them.... generally projects since they've stopped have had fewer backers too, although I think that's more down to the projects and more KS competition than EBs)
<sighs> I was trying to find an artist to professionally draw my vision of elves for FF to possibly produce, so that we don't end up with more GW skirted/Lotr Samuraiesque clones and got sidetracked by my heart attack.
I hope FF goes with a classic medieval/fantasy non GW look for them.
<sighs> I was trying to find an artist to professionally draw my vision of elves for FF to possibly produce, so that we don't end up with more GW skirted/Lotr Samuraiesque clones and got sidetracked by my heart attack.
I hope FF goes with a classic medieval/fantasy non GW look for them.
Commander Cain wrote: Great looking models but I'm getting a dreamforge vibe of them overextending a little too much. Seems like they have 2 kickstarters worth of models atm...
Lovely looking stuff in the Kickstarter and will definitely buy into this in good measure. Any chance of any quirky extras being added in to the design process at any stage like small terrain pieces or unit fillers? (Thinking of things like dead villagers on furniture and lying against fences etc)
Was also wondering what the Dwarves will be like? What style - imperial, gw mountain clan etc?
If I may give my opinion here, I would really like to see elves, done with the aesthetics of the 'Lands of Arran' comic books series (which is great BTW).
Donomar wrote: Lovely looking stuff in the Kickstarter and will definitely buy into this in good measure. Any chance of any quirky extras being added in to the design process at any stage like small terrain pieces or unit fillers? (Thinking of things like dead villagers on furniture and lying against fences etc)
Was also wondering what the Dwarves will be like? What style - imperial, gw mountain clan etc?
we are not offering design changes or other stuff to add because in this way we will not have delays in shipment of the final products, we prefer to work step by step
about dwarves, we are still working on their design
Since you're still working on the Dwarfs, I'll make a suggestion - can they be "classic" in proportions? By which I mean something like the old GW metal Longbeards(what were they, 5th edition?).
I'm super bored of the endless parade of LotR-proportioned Dwarfs, I'd love to have access to a modern plastic range in that classic actually-look-like-another-species style rather than "normal bloke but shorter".
Yodhrin wrote: Since you're still working on the Dwarfs, I'll make a suggestion - can they be "classic" in proportions? By which I mean something like the old GW metal Longbeards(what were they, 5th edition?).
I'm super bored of the endless parade of LotR-proportioned Dwarfs, I'd love to have access to a modern plastic range in that classic actually-look-like-another-species style rather than "normal bloke but shorter".
I'd love this too. I'd definitely be in for a box or two if they were different enough (than just a 20mm-scale human...)
I like the oathmark elves and I bought a ton of them. But....my plan now is to get a ton of FF's Byzantines and put the oathmark heads on them. I like the scale mail look and overall eastern but not oriental aesthetic for elves.
Living Dead warriors finally painted and ready for #kickstarter
very nice
Fast kitbash only with glue work of our current historical plastic range with parts of our future fantasy range
hmm the more heroic scale of the fantasy parts is noticeable and doesn't scale well with the historicals the hands are below the knees (which is not a criticism of either kit just together they aren’t ideal).
Great to see that they are scaled for fantasy miniatures. Also a big step forward that they have removed the plastic surfboards from the feet. I hate those things. The living dead look great all painted up.
LAST CHANGES TO OUR KICKSTARTER CAMPAIGN!
We believe in our project and we are always ready to do the possible for a successful launch. Today we updated our campaign with the following changes:
- project funding goal decreased to 130k
- now for any pledge you will choose, you will be able to get the boxes you want, also the new plastic sets like Folk Rabble and the other factions when unlocked
- rules will be printed in following languages: english, spanish and italian
As usual, thanks for your feedbacks, check the kickstarter preview at:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/fireforgegames/927490714?ref=558303&token=630d2b53
The change makes sense otherwise there is nothing to stop a backer just dropping to a lower pledge level and adding back the €16+ to get the unlocked extra sets might as well allow all sets unlocked to be picked with the base pledge level.
A bit of greenstuff in the open wounds and this would probably be convertable back into a regular dog - although Facebook comments mentions the possibility of living dogs in future.
And I see that Folk Rabble has dropped to €230,000 as well, that €20,000 should be easy to pick back up once they unlock.
Preview of the #forgottenworldwargame orc faction design. We like them, we hope you too! Conan the barbarian main theme will be perfect for them #kickstarter #fireforgeminiatures #fantasyminiatures #9thage #fantasybattle #wargaming #tabletopgames
Those orcs are really looking good...and you're making female models too ?! Damn. First I just wanted the peasant kits (living and zombies), but I fear the hole in my wallet will be way bigger !
So many plastic miniatures to build and so little time... T-T
judgedoug wrote: Definitely a relief to see orcs not based on Kev Adams & Brian Nelson / Foundry & Citadel orcs.
Well, except for their attire. Would it be too much to ask for orcs whose equipment and raiment weren't all notched to hell? Not that it will prevent me from buying some of these minis.
I will definitely be backing this one! The Northmen & Peasants look great, I could well be tempted by the rest too, although I am a little concerned that they are trying to fund too many different kits at the same time.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: I will definitely be backing this one! The Northmen & Peasants look great, I could well be tempted by the rest too, although I am a little concerned that they are trying to fund too many different kits at the same time.
Do we know what time the KS is due to go live?
7:00p.m. Rome time (10:00a.m. Los Angeles - 1:00p.m. New York - 6:00p.m. London - September 21st 3:00a.m Sydney).
I wonder how they match up with zombicide Black Plague figures, because those men at arms are exactly what I envision for medieval soldiers and the ballista and trebuchets would work well with them.
Yep just a starter for me for now - it's only €4 than an EB and extra €16 box and you get the game and railings and gravestone set. I'm ready to add more but I'll wait until it funds first.
This is absolutely on my radar...but there is one other conflicting KS which is about to kick off --- so I might have to watch both and see which will succeed before diving into one of them. Of course...nothing I want for years and then two KS I want equally! ARRGH!
I cannot overstate how worth backing this kickstarter is, for the multipart plastic peasant/villager kits alone! (aka "Folk Rabble" in the stretch goals).
This is simply for the fact that no other company that i've found in my research, whether GW or other third party, makes such a thing!
I've been trying to accumulate resources for generic peasant/villager models for a project i'm brainstorming, and these guys would be just absolutely perfect.
And i'm sure that other fellow kitbashers and converters would find no shortage of usage for these as well.
For now, i'm backed for the zombie peasants, as they'll fit my needs with a little greenstuff - but let's get that stretch goal funded!!
Sentionaut wrote: I cannot overstate how worth backing this kickstarter is, for the multipart plastic peasant/villager kits alone! (aka "Folk Rabble" in the stretch goals).
No other company that i've found in my research, whether GW or other third party, makes such a thing!
I've been trying to accumulate resources for generic peasant/villager models for a project i'm brainstorming, and these guys would be just absolutely perfect.
For now, i'm backed for the zombie peasants, as they'll fit my needs with a little greenstuff - but let's get that stretch goal funded!!
Yeah it's a great Kickstarter and really hope it makes the goals, particularly the stretch goals to get those villagers etc!!
Went for the Early Bird myself but would like to get the Starter too; do you just increase the pledge by the amount and send them an email or how would that work?
Sentionaut wrote: I cannot overstate how worth backing this kickstarter is, for the multipart plastic peasant/villager kits alone! (aka "Folk Rabble" in the stretch goals).
No other company that i've found in my research, whether GW or other third party, makes such a thing!
I've been trying to accumulate resources for generic peasant/villager models for a project i'm brainstorming, and these guys would be just absolutely perfect.
For now, i'm backed for the zombie peasants, as they'll fit my needs with a little greenstuff - but let's get that stretch goal funded!!
Yeah it's a great Kickstarter and really hope it makes the goals, particularly the stretch goals to get those villagers etc!!
Went for the Early Bird myself but would like to get the Starter too; do you just increase the pledge by the amount and send them an email or how would that work?
Yeah just add 140 pounds to your pledge. Later you can tell them what its for
ADD-ONS
Need something else? if you want to Add-on simply increase the amount of your PLEDGE by the corresponding amount. You will confirm your choice with a post-campaign pledge manager.
Sentionaut wrote: I cannot overstate how worth backing this kickstarter is, for the multipart plastic peasant/villager kits alone! (aka "Folk Rabble" in the stretch goals).
No other company that i've found in my research, whether GW or other third party, makes such a thing!
I've been trying to accumulate resources for generic peasant/villager models for a project i'm brainstorming, and these guys would be just absolutely perfect.
For now, i'm backed for the zombie peasants, as they'll fit my needs with a little greenstuff - but let's get that stretch goal funded!!
Yeah it's a great Kickstarter and really hope it makes the goals, particularly the stretch goals to get those villagers etc!!
Went for the Early Bird myself but would like to get the Starter too; do you just increase the pledge by the amount and send them an email or how would that work?
Yeah, these types of kickstarters always have a "pledge manager" at the end, where you identify exactly what you want for your contribution.
So for now, all you have to do is just increase your pledge.
At the current spend per backer we need approximately 700 more backers to fund.
Hopefully the word gets out!
I still think they should just offer the characters in resin rather than plastic. Characters seem like the definition of what you should not try to do in plastic.
In for the early bird, I LOVE this KS, and really hope it comes through. Being able to check off my mordheim, AoS AND Feudal Astra Militarum needs in one kickstarter (and many deep dives into the old bit box, of course) feels like a coup!
Too many minis for me nowadays, but overall these look fantastic and I hope the KS does boffo cash so that Fireforge gets a good start on getting their fantasy line up and going and becomes a bigger player in the mini world. Kudos to them!
I went ahead and did an Early Bird. I'm hoping this gets pretty high but there is some good stuff in case it doesn't. 96-models for $140 is solid. Especially since the living dead would make cool skelly/grave guard counts-as for my undead
I was going to say it's a shame they weren't armoured skeletons - but we already have GWs Grave Guard and they're great models already, don't need new ones! So that's probably a good decision. For the same reason, I'm a bit skeptical towards the skeleton riders since we already have Black Knights from GW. All the models look great though, wish I could come up with a good excuse to buy them but I have no idea what I would use them for...
Following your suggestions, we just added a reward for all backers who will pledge €100 or more to the campaign! More models, more figures, more fun!
Well that's an extra 12 infantry or more Cavalry (they have different sprue layouts to Infantry). I wanted an extra 6 undead horses but don't need the extra riders so happy days.
I’ve backed in for a generals pledge. Loving the look of the human infantry. Large infantry army coming for me. Maybe it will even get me back in to 9th age. I know you’re releasing your own rules. I’ll play that if I find anyone locally who’ll do it.
A good chunk of change already. It should fund at least.
But I wouldn't count on the peasant rabble getting unlocked unfortunately. :( I hope there's plans to release those eventually later even if they don't get funded by this KS
I really don't understand why more people aren't backing this. the only thing I've seen is kind of a b***** attitude is that the boxes are 12 men each vs 20
lord marcus wrote: I really don't understand why more people aren't backing this. the only thing I've seen is kind of a b***** attitude is that the boxes are 12 men each vs 20
Well it's not a board game and it's not relevant to 40k, so the target audience is very limited. KoW is just about the only major (and I use the term loosly) game for these miniatures.
Market glut unfortunately. For me it's competing with stuff I want and can get now and frankly plastic fantasy humans and Undead are fairly saturated in the market. Particularly if like me you feel the smaller more gracile historical human types look more heroic compared to the Orcs etc available than the chunkier warriors.
lord marcus wrote:I really don't understand why more people aren't backing this. the only thing I've seen is kind of a b***** attitude is that the boxes are 12 men each vs 20
For me it is that I really like what GW is releasing right now... GW is currently releasing so much great stuff that I just can't spare to pledge for something I will only receive in a couple of months. Even if it looks good. Between Claymore Casting, V&V miniatures, Victrix and GW there is just no hobby money left.
Also besides painting (because they look really nice). I don't really have a use for these mini's. For fantasy my gaming needs are satisfied with AoS and Warhammer Underworlds.
If this kickstarter was released after the Old Warhammer end / AoS first release debacle. This kickstarter would reach 500000 easly. Now there is just to much cool stuff already.
With the revival of GW it's even harder to get a piece of the cake.
I really hope it funds and that everything will be eventually released.
Llamahead wrote:Market glut unfortunately. For me it's competing with stuff I want and can get now and frankly plastic fantasy humans and Undead are fairly saturated in the market. Particularly if like me you feel the smaller more gracile historical human types look more heroic compared to the Orcs etc available than the chunkier warriors.
lord marcus wrote: I really don't understand why more people aren't backing this. the only thing I've seen is kind of a b***** attitude is that the boxes are 12 men each vs 20
Well it's not a board game and it's not relevant to 40k, so the target audience is very limited. KoW is just about the only major (and I use the term loosly) game for these miniatures.
Just shy of €80,000 I think it will fund as there are 27 days left to raise €50,000 or €1,850 per day - very doable but I had hoped it would go further. If Fireforge could find some way of bringing the Folk Rabble forward that might help push things on as a lot seem to be waiting on them - that said saying and buying two different things and will it translate to a bump in pledges.
Perhaps they should post an update encouraging people to pledge for what they want based on things being unlocked, because the production is based on the demand. If a couple thousand people would be willing to spend on average of €50 each to buy boxes of miniatures when they're unlocked, but they all pledge 0 or €1 then they're not presenting their actual demand. So things which Fireforge could afford to make if backers weren't being cute will never get made because they can't just psychically know you'd buy them without you telling them.
I’ll keep an eye on this one, but right now (last few years) I have more projects than I’ll ever complete. That and old warhammer being dead and AOS not being a thing to me means these would rarely see the table. I love the look of the human faction though and think I could use some zombicide figs as heroes.
Didn't want to put this in Fireforge's thread since they are starting their own rules system, but in answer to the below I'd like to point out Kings of War for a mass fantasy battle substitute. It was written by Alessio Cavatore, Tuomas Pirinen and Rick Priestley. Yes, there are similarities to WHFB, but it is a cleaner design and better balanced. The Rules Committee tries to fix "must haves" by toning units down or tweaking rules based on tournament results. You can also try the rules for free.
Theophony wrote: I’ll keep an eye on this one, but right now (last few years) I have more projects than I’ll ever complete. That and old warhammer being dead and AOS not being a thing to me means these would rarely see the table. I love the look of the human faction though and think I could use some zombicide figs as heroes.
I'll wait for retail if it gets there as I don't have a need for their current offer.
I do have a need for peasants, though, both of the "burn the witch!" variety shown here and of a more demure demeanor. Those I would pledge for, but I can wait for another KS if they don't get there.
We just updated our project inserting a Deus Vult add-ons list, allowing to all who will pledge this project to get some of our current boxed product discounted.
I know this gets brought up a lot, and I don't really care, but did KS remove their 'policy' on stuff like this, or do they just still not care, as it gets them more in their cut in the end?
Albertorius wrote: I'll wait for retail if it gets there as I don't have a need for their current offer.
I do have a need for peasants, though, both of the "burn the witch!" variety shown here and of a more demure demeanor. Those I would pledge for, but I can wait for another KS if they don't get there.
If people who want them don't pledge, they won't get there. And there no garruntee of another Kickstarter for the same
We just updated our project inserting a Deus Vult add-ons list, allowing to all who will pledge this project to get some of our current boxed product discounted.
Now this is a better reason to look at their new offerings. With 20% off on their existing stuff these fantasy troops are more palatable. Bookmarked again.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Didn't they say their historical kits and fantasy kits are not comparable in scale?
Depends on how picky you are I guess. Here's their comparasion pic:
I'd be wary of mixing the models in the same unit, and bits from different ranges on the same model (although there were some pics earlier in the thread with kitbashed historical FF dudes and zombie bits that looked decent, though the arms were too long). I would have no problem with unit's from the different ranges in the same army though. I've mixed units from fireforge and GW in a bretonnian/brotherhood army and it doesn't look off. Especially not from across a table.
Albertorius wrote: I'll wait for retail if it gets there as I don't have a need for their current offer.
I do have a need for peasants, though, both of the "burn the witch!" variety shown here and of a more demure demeanor. Those I would pledge for, but I can wait for another KS if they don't get there.
If people who want them don't pledge, they won't get there. And there no garruntee of another Kickstarter for the same
Albertorius wrote: I'll wait for retail if it gets there as I don't have a need for their current offer.
I do have a need for peasants, though, both of the "burn the witch!" variety shown here and of a more demure demeanor. Those I would pledge for, but I can wait for another KS if they don't get there.
If people who want them don't pledge, they won't get there. And there no garruntee of another Kickstarter for the same
I am aware of the fact, and I am okay with it.
I'm in a similar boat. I've pledged, but I'm only in this for the peasants as well. If they don't fund, I'll unpledge. I wonder how many people out there are either pledged only for the peasants, or waiting for the peasants to unlock.
We believe in our kickstarter project. We decided to unlock Folk Rabble plastic set with project funding. We will pay for that production instead to raise more funds by the campaign. However this set will be available later during 2019 and will be not shipped togheter with northmen and living dead boxes.
We believe in our kickstarter project. We decided to unlock Folk Rabble plastic set with project funding. We will pay for that production instead to raise more funds by the campaign. However this set will be available later during 2019 and will be not shipped togheter with northmen and living dead boxes.
So put up or shut up . Glad they are listening to the peasant horde at their door. Also glad that it will not slow down the shipping of the rest of the Kickstarter to wait for these.
frankelee wrote: Perhaps they should post an update encouraging people to pledge for what they want based on things being unlocked, because the production is based on the demand. If a couple thousand people would be willing to spend on average of €50 each to buy boxes of miniatures when they're unlocked, but they all pledge 0 or €1 then they're not presenting their actual demand. So things which Fireforge could afford to make if backers weren't being cute will never get made because they can't just psychically know you'd buy them without you telling them.
People pledging for stretch goals that may or may not happen (in a campaign that's stalling) is a good way to almost guarantee a backslide by the end of the campaign. Also, if people are unhappy with getting 12 to a box instead of 24, then that's the market speaking to them.
I'm personally only down for a Euro right now, because I'm the figures are just okay for my own uses, and I don't especially need a bunch of very plain "fantasy" humans, (even more) undead and don't care about them being not-GoT, but if it funds, I'll probably pick up a couple of things - though as others have noted, my money is predominantly going to current, new-release GW stuff, and KS is very low on the totem pole unless it's offering something amazing.
So put up or shut up . Glad they are listening to the peasant horde at their door. Also glad that it will not slow down the shipping of the rest of the Kickstarter to wait for these.
Very much this.
FF did their end of the deal. Now it's time for all the Peasant-lovers to cash the checks their mouths were writing.
lord_blackfang wrote: I think FF will be disappointed by the numbers brought in by the Peasant Rabble.
Yeah, I'm sure people who are keen for the peasants will back it now (if they weren't already doing so), but I'm not sure if it'll be enough to make a big difference. Hopefully I'm proved wrong there, though!
Personally I am a Kings of War diehard. That rule system is perfect for mass rank and file combat.
I like the aesthetics of the FF models, just not a fan of the heroic scale used. As is I wish FF a successful campaign, but I think Oathmark will have my money, that is unless a drastic development occures.
Mymearan wrote: Aesthetics aside, Oathmark's are also heroic scale.
From all the photos I have seen they don't look to be heroic scale, but rather inline with historical scale. The weapons, hands, and heads aren't oversized.
For example their Goblins fit perfectly next to GW's Lord of the Rings Orcs. A range that is very much historical scale and not heroic.
So put up or shut up . Glad they are listening to the peasant horde at their door. Also glad that it will not slow down the shipping of the rest of the Kickstarter to wait for these.
Very much this.
FF did their end of the deal. Now it's time for all the Peasant-lovers to cash the checks their mouths were writing.
lord_blackfang wrote: I think FF will be disappointed by the numbers brought in by the Peasant Rabble.
Yeah, I'm sure people who are keen for the peasants will back it now (if they weren't already doing so), but I'm not sure if it'll be enough to make a big difference. Hopefully I'm proved wrong there, though!
It's already at $103,158 of $152,625 funding goal with after 5 days, 25 days left don't really see how it wouldn't make it, tbh
lord_blackfang wrote: I think FF will be disappointed by the numbers brought in by the Peasant Rabble.
Yeah, I'm sure people who are keen for the peasants will back it now (if they weren't already doing so), but I'm not sure if it'll be enough to make a big difference. Hopefully I'm proved wrong there, though!
It's already at $103,158 of $152,625 funding goal with after 5 days, 25 days left don't really see how it wouldn't make it, tbh
Oh, I'm sure this will be a successful campaign. I just think the roleplayers who each want one sprue of peasants won't make a big difference.
I'm in for the rabble, but I'll pull my pledge in the final days if it looks like the campaign won't hit that goal. Frankly, this campaign is doing stuff that the Dakka community would call other companies on harshly, like using existing to bump the total without adding to the funds for new product and moving stretch goals out of desperation, potentially putting Fireforge in a worse position if this campaign only makes it a bit above the funding goal.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I'm in for the rabble, but I'll pull my pledge in the final days if it looks like the campaign won't hit that goal. Frankly, this campaign is doing stuff that the Dakka community would call other companies on harshly, like using existing to bump the total without adding to the funds for new product and moving stretch goals out of desperation, potentially putting Fireforge in a worse position if this campaign only makes it a bit above the funding goal.
True, but at least FF has been around for a while and when some of those other companies get called out they are usually new companies......or Mantic .
I'm planning on backing for the peasants but really only need two boxes, one living and one undead. Do we know if we can delay shipping of the undead peasants to the later release date as I really don't want to pay shipping two times for this?
Monkeysloth wrote:I'm planning on backing for the peasants but really only need two boxes, one living and one undead. Do we know if we can delay shipping of the undead peasants to the later release date as I really don't want to pay shipping two times for this?
lord marcus wrote:I would assume you can ask
I think that duplication of shipping fees is something that they will need to clarify fairly quickly as it could negate any increase in interest from this offer. I really hope that this funds, and it does look like it will, but feel that the whole Stretch Goal chart was very ambitious. If the 4 factions (from €240,000 to 400,000) was instead placed with the characters (between 130.000 and 240,000) to create a crowded table of bonuses, with every €10,000 increase, I really think this would create a huge surge in pledges.
That said it has been going up at least €5000 per day which means it should be funded within 8-10 days which leaves another 2 weeks to keep rising.
lord_blackfang wrote: I think FF will be disappointed by the numbers brought in by the Peasant Rabble.
Yeah, I'm sure people who are keen for the peasants will back it now (if they weren't already doing so), but I'm not sure if it'll be enough to make a big difference. Hopefully I'm proved wrong there, though!
I believe that the folk rabble supporters just want one box or two at most, and that the "tidal wave in pledges" they seemed to imply will not happen. They just wanted their babies coming first. Now waiting for the orc supporters to come in and do the same. Why not, after all ? They managed to get folk rabble go lower in stretch goal, right ?
Backer logic. Well, that's how kickstarter is, now. Blame the company for giving in, and blame the backers for pushing on.
lord_blackfang wrote: I think FF will be disappointed by the numbers brought in by the Peasant Rabble.
Yeah, I'm sure people who are keen for the peasants will back it now (if they weren't already doing so), but I'm not sure if it'll be enough to make a big difference. Hopefully I'm proved wrong there, though!
It's already at $103,158 of $152,625 funding goal with after 5 days, 25 days left don't really see how it wouldn't make it, tbh
Well, two ways - you can't reply on consistent pledging of a solid amount each day of a KS anymore. The spikes are at the start and at the end. Most people who will pledge have already done so. The mid-campaign doldrums tend to hit like three or four days in now.
Then people are unnecessarily skittish these days, and too many tend to pull their pledges way too early if something doesn't fund near-immediately. (and, like, you don't get charged if the campaign doesn't fund anyway!)
Actually, and linked to the second point - people who pledged with a certain stretch goal in mind tend to pull their pledge if it doesn't look like their stretch goal will be funded. This one is more reasonable, but it's the drawback to pledging for something they have on offer as a stretch. That's why they unlocked the Peasants early - to prevent that particular backslide.
Finally, there are people who pledge with the hope of "Massive Value". These are the people who pledge with the hopes of getting tons of figures, and pull their pledge (or don't pledge) unless there's an overwhelming amount of models offered. I admit this is where I fit in, though I'm down for a Euro rather than going all in with a risk of pulling it later. Mostly because I'm ambivalent about the models. They're ...fine. And I have other more pressing places to send my money.
Still, hoping it gets funded, even if I don't raise my own pledge.
Monkeysloth wrote: I'm planning on backing for the peasants but really only need two boxes, one living and one undead. Do we know if we can delay shipping of the undead peasants to the later release date as I really don't want to pay shipping two times for this?
They confirmed you can delay shipping to Gallahad’s question.
Fireforge GamesCreator
about 2 hours ago
yes of course
Mymearan wrote: Aesthetics aside, Oathmark's are also heroic scale.
From all the photos I have seen they don't look to be heroic scale, but rather inline with historical scale. The weapons, hands, and heads aren't oversized.
For example their Goblins fit perfectly next to GW's Lord of the Rings Orcs. A range that is very much historical scale and not heroic.
They are definitely oversized, just not as oversized as some other ranges. Compare them to Infinity model, or count how many heads high one of their elves are... certainly not 7-8 heads (which would be true scale).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I'm in for the rabble, but I'll pull my pledge in the final days if it looks like the campaign won't hit that goal. Frankly, this campaign is doing stuff that the Dakka community would call other companies on harshly, like using existing to bump the total without adding to the funds for new product and moving stretch goals out of desperation, potentially putting Fireforge in a worse position if this campaign only makes it a bit above the funding goal.
Well, they are an established company, so they would be more likely to have the cash on hand to invest in an extra sprue they didn't plan on funding themselves.
Monkeysloth wrote:I'm planning on backing for the peasants but really only need two boxes, one living and one undead. Do we know if we can delay shipping of the undead peasants to the later release date as I really don't want to pay shipping two times for this?
lord marcus wrote:I would assume you can ask
I think that duplication of shipping fees is something that they will need to clarify fairly quickly as it could negate any increase in interest from this offer. I really hope that this funds, and it does look like it will, but feel that the whole Stretch Goal chart was very ambitious. If the 4 factions (from €240,000 to 400,000) was instead placed with the characters (between 130.000 and 240,000) to create a crowded table of bonuses, with every €10,000 increase, I really think this would create a huge surge in pledges.
That said it has been going up at least €5000 per day which means it should be funded within 8-10 days which leaves another 2 weeks to keep rising.
Since they seem to be actually funding the tooling with the stretch goal amounts, lowering all the stretch goals like that would not cover the costs.
I am in on an early bird for this, especially with the update of free sprues if over 100 (assuming it funds.) I am really excited about the armoured zombies. I would love an extra sprue in each box so we get 18 northmen/zombie warriors per box - then it becomes a real no brainer!
lord marcus wrote: Is the issue the 12 man boxes? Its what I keep hearing.
Clearly, it's doing them no favours.
Theissue is cost per box vs number of figs right?
Hard to tell exactly, as cost per box is always skewed by Kickstarter "prices" and Kickstarter "discounts" against eventual MSRP, Kickstarter shipping, and eventual retail discounts (often with free shipping to boot). Clearly they're setting up their prices based on units for their game that people backing may or may not give two gaks about, but typically, Fireforge's plastic infantry have 25-40 models in them while their cavalry have 12 to a box. Numerically, they look like a sub-par deal compared to their own historical models (or those of the Perrys, etc). Going for 12 might stack up ok against GW's models on the surface, but these humans aren't really giving off much of a fantasy vibe, being pretty plain household troops types compared to ...well, anything GW puts out (or even used to put out before the fall of WHFB). Both the human and the Undead ultimately look ...fine.
I've got a lot of Fireforge's historical plastic figures across several ranges and time periods, and find them more inspiring than this lot of humans. And that's the thing here - for models that appear to be ...fine and don't offer amazeballs value, people will be comparing them to what they can get right now. So they're essentially competing with the Perrys' Agincourt and WotR boxes, as well as their own Historical offerings. Just because they're called "Fantasy" and are slightly more heroic (apparently) is a gakky reason to bump the price when your models are as generic as can be. Like, they're nice. The designs are fine, but they're not inspiring, and they're very generic.
I feel like to get this over the line comfortably, they need to be offering more. Since it's simply shots of a sprue and backers pay for the shipping, it seems like they're overvaluing their new Not-GoT line a bit too much - both for the KS and also for eventual retail. I think GW has also made the fantasy space more difficult for up and comers with the death of WHFB and rise of AoS. While I for one would have no problem using these guys as whatever Empire or Brettonia are called now or an opponent doing the same, those forces are very much background to the new shiny - and despie KoW being a great ruleset and 9th Age being a thing, lots of people are sheep when it comes to playing anything that GW doesn't actively support. (Just read these forums). That's all a lot for these models to overcome at a price that seems to be significantly higher than the same company's historical.
And yeah, smaller boxes as well - people hate smaller boxes - even GW backpedalled on the LotR boxes recently bumping them back up to 24 from the gakky 12 they reduced them to! I immediately bought several, and I hadn't bought a single box since the drop to 12 models. Look at how people feel about Dire Avengers being 5 to a box, or even the new Primaris vs Tactical marines.
When comparing their fantasy figures and their historical figures, you pay five euro less for the fantasy figures, get half the number of troops, but do get a banner arm, a horn arm, bases, some two handed spear arms, and a few more pouches. They (fantasy) are also slightly larger with better proportioned heads.
Some of their kits (like the Teutonic infantry) include cloaks for all the models, hand weapon, spear, crossbow arms, a two handed axe arm set, and a banner arm....along with double the number of troops. For five more euro.
The Forgotten World minis look to be cheaper than CMON's ASOIAF troops per box of 12 at retail (right? What is the projected MSRP again?), so if that is their primary competition the prices make sense, I guess.
Have we seen the prices for Conquest's fantasy troops, yet? I feel like those (and possibly Mantic's MaA) will be the real competition for Forgotten World in the market of non-GW fantasy minis.
I'd love to see a few skeleton (as opposed to zombie) options for the living dead warriors. They'd fit really nicely in with my legions of skeletons for kings of war (though I suspect I could dig up some skelly heads in my bits box, if I have to)
But I agree with some of the sentiment here - it's not a fantastic value. I suspect it will just barely fund; a disappointment as we may not see any of the stretch goals dangled in front of us... I'm in for the ~50 Euro pledge, which is really not looking like a great deal, and not excited about bumping up to 100 to take advantage of the free sprue they tossed in...
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The Forgotten World minis look to be cheaper than CMON's ASOIAF troops per box of 12 at retail (right? What is the projected MSRP again?), so if that is their primary competition the prices make sense, I guess.
Have we seen the prices for Conquest's fantasy troops, yet? I feel like those (and possibly Mantic's MaA) will be the real competition for Forgotten World in the market of non-GW fantasy minis.
Not that I have a problem with the direction they took their fantasy troops, but if they were more definitely fantasy they might have generated more interest. You'd have to be something of a Medieval history buff to see any difference between the Northmen figures and Fireforge's regular historical figures. Though I don't imagine anybody choosing between CMON and Fireforge here, if you want to play Ice and Fire you'll buy CMON, if you want plastic soldiers for most any other game you'll buy from a regular miniature manufacturer like Fireforge, Conquest, Mantic, etc.
Having thought it over $1.50 a mini ain't too bad a price, but Kickstarter is for giving people great deals or getting your little project off the ground. It's harder getting traction when you're in-between.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The Forgotten World minis look to be cheaper than CMON's ASOIAF troops per box of 12 at retail (right? What is the projected MSRP again?), so if that is their primary competition the prices make sense, I guess.
Have we seen the prices for Conquest's fantasy troops, yet? I feel like those (and possibly Mantic's MaA) will be the real competition for Forgotten World in the market of non-GW fantasy minis.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The Forgotten World minis look to be cheaper than CMON's ASOIAF troops per box of 12 at retail (right? What is the projected MSRP again?), so if that is their primary competition the prices make sense, I guess.
Have we seen the prices for Conquest's fantasy troops, yet? I feel like those (and possibly Mantic's MaA) will be the real competition for Forgotten World in the market of non-GW fantasy minis.
Do the ASOIAF come 12 to a box or 13? I bought a Lannister Halberdier box from my LGS. It had 13 guys. 12 normal guys and then a leader guy. for 13 total. Though the tray only holds 12. Not sure if it was a kickstarter thing or if all really do come with 13.
With the Fireforge Northmen, 5 boxes nets you 60 guys. So 2.5 boxes is a unit of 30.... so $58.70 for a unit of 30...
Smokestack wrote: Do the ASOIAF come 12 to a box or 13? I bought a Lannister Halberdier box from my LGS. It had 13 guys. 12 normal guys and then a leader guy. for 13 total. Though the tray only holds 12. Not sure if it was a kickstarter thing or if all really do come with 13.
With the Fireforge Northmen, 5 boxes nets you 60 guys. So 2.5 boxes is a unit of 30.... so $58.70 for a unit of 30...
I don't know. Simply went by what it said on the Miniature Market website. Was the box you purchased a KS box or standard retail box? Is there a difference? Still, if it is 12 trooper and a leader for 13 I don't see why CMON and any retailer would suppress that information. More bang for your buck is usually a positive selling point.
I haven’t backed yet. I like the look of the humans, but I’m not playing anything right now. I’d love a scale shot of their troops next to a zombicide Black Plague figure for scale though. Right now I’m considering using my ballista and trebuchet from there as artillery for these men at arms.
Gallahad wrote: When comparing their fantasy figures and their historical figures, you pay five euro less for the fantasy figures, get half the number of troops, but do get a banner arm, a horn arm, bases, some two handed spear arms, and a few more pouches. They (fantasy) are also slightly larger with better proportioned heads.
Some of their kits (like the Teutonic infantry) include cloaks for all the models, hand weapon, spear, crossbow arms, a two handed axe arm set, and a banner arm....along with double the number of troops. For five more euro.
There you go. I couldn't see the MSRP for the fantasy boxes. The Teutonic infantry look to be almost about as heroically scaled as these fantasy figures as well, but that's an excellent comparison - and one that I suspect Fireforge would be wise to consider themselves.
Gallahad wrote: When comparing their fantasy figures and their historical figures, you pay five euro less for the fantasy figures, get half the number of troops, but do get a banner arm, a horn arm, bases, some two handed spear arms, and a few more pouches. They (fantasy) are also slightly larger with better proportioned heads.
Some of their kits (like the Teutonic infantry) include cloaks for all the models, hand weapon, spear, crossbow arms, a two handed axe arm set, and a banner arm....along with double the number of troops. For five more euro.
There you go. I couldn't see the MSRP for the fantasy boxes. The Teutonic infantry look to be almost about as heroically scaled as these fantasy figures as well, but that's an excellent comparison - and one that I suspect Fireforge would be wise to consider themselves.
I just shared it on the kickstarter. Hopefully they respond
Smokestack wrote: Do the ASOIAF come 12 to a box or 13? I bought a Lannister Halberdier box from my LGS. It had 13 guys. 12 normal guys and then a leader guy. for 13 total. Though the tray only holds 12. Not sure if it was a kickstarter thing or if all really do come with 13.
With the Fireforge Northmen, 5 boxes nets you 60 guys. So 2.5 boxes is a unit of 30.... so $58.70 for a unit of 30...
I don't know. Simply went by what it said on the Miniature Market website. Was the box you purchased a KS box or standard retail box? Is there a difference? Still, if it is 12 trooper and a leader for 13 I don't see why CMON and any retailer would suppress that information. More bang for your buck is usually a positive selling point.
Some boxes contain 13 figures (unit of 12 plus a leader), some only contain the unit with no leader, so it's a mix.
Do the ASOIAF come 12 to a box or 13? I bought a Lannister Halberdier box from my LGS. It had 13 guys. 12 normal guys and then a leader guy. for 13 total. Though the tray only holds 12. Not sure if it was a kickstarter thing or if all really do come with 13.
With the Fireforge Northmen, 5 boxes nets you 60 guys. So 2.5 boxes is a unit of 30.... so $58.70 for a unit of 30...
It depends. Some units that have a unit commander upgrade will be 13. Umber Berserkers for example. The tray holds 12, so you replace one of the troopers with the upgrade figure.
Otherwise it's 12- that's the total amount of wounds each unit has. Cav have 3 wounds each, and 4 to a unit so = 12.
Can I change pledge level in the PM?
No, you can’t.
Last updated: Thu, September 27 2018 10:06 PM AEST
Can I pledge €1 now and still access the PM?
Only if you will increase your pledge during the campaign to get add-ons.
Last updated: Thu, September 27 2018 10:06 PM AEST
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This means that there's no "in for a buck" and bumping the pledge later on in their PM. Understandable really, since the project is uncertain to fund so they don't want people sitting on the fence until later.
So for me at least, it means I'm out. The fact that the value is merely okay, plus 30 euro shipping for stuff paid many months in advance (because Kickstarter) doesn't stack up well against the fact that I can get their stuff with a 10% discount and free shipping when it hits retail. Yes, it's very true that if people don't back the models won't get made, but (I'll repeat here, just in case), while I think the models are nice enough, I'm far from in love with them, and I really don't need any of them - so this makes me less invested than others who are right into GoT or the Peasant models, etc.
I'm not bitter or angry about their "no PM" stance at all (if that's allowed on the internet?) Like, I do hope they fund all the best to and for them, but I ultimately won't be fussed about skipping it even if it does fund.
Our historical boxed sets are lower in price than our new fantasy sets because are lower in quality.
If you buy our historical products (more than one box of course) you will notice that we usually recycle parts of one sprue to use it in other sets. This system has defects and good things of course but it worked well in historical market, so well that other companies followed our way.
But it does not means that this system solved us all the problems, we have still products that after 4 years from the release are far to be a profit for our company and are still sold in loss considering the production costs.
Our new fantasy range is born to be the best our company can do, without any compromise and the difference with our historical range are:
- not recycled parts: any sprue will be create by 0
- new proportions of the models remaining in the same scale
- more detail deepness, the definition of any details to be easier to paint and better to see (chainmail of our historical and the one you will see are completely different)
- better joint system between the different parts where possible
- a lot more single parts to assemble an higher number of different poses and customize these models with a lot of different options
- command options included in the box (many of our historical sets haven't)
and these are just some of the changes we did to our production, what is easy to see from outside as customer.
Of course this has an higher production costs and don't forget we would have been happy to defeat the other companies with a low price for our models, but simply we can not offer these models with this quality at a lower price.
user avatar
Anselmus
about 6 hours ago
I wholeheartedly agree to what FF wrote above. The pre-production examples are a big improvement to FF historicals, and laser moulding and hard plastic will transport that detail into the final product. That said, I'm also in for the historical add-ons.
And there are plenty of the Early Bird pledges still available, and unlimited Starter Box pledges. If bang for bucks is your main criteria for pledging, those are truly valuable pledge levels.
I'm still in but... 30 Euro shipping does seem a bit high. Especially as I will have to pay 30 euro for like the 12 initial boxes of the 16 in my general pledge... then have to pay again for the other 4 boxes that are part of wave 2... And since the warehouse is in Virginia it is not likely to cost anywhere near that to ship from VA to MD... I could drive and pick them up myself for like $5 worth of gas...
But I really do like the minis so...
I am glad that they did not cave in and up the boxes from 12- 18 or 24... While I would love extra models, it would cause me to doubt the plan they have or the things they have said and likely to pull out completely.
But as I said, I like the models so I am still in.
Smokestack wrote: I'm still in but... 30 Euro shipping does seem a bit high. Especially as I will have to pay 30 euro for like the 12 initial boxes of the 16 in my general pledge... then have to pay again for the other 4 boxes that are part of wave 2... And since the warehouse is in Virginia it is not likely to cost anywhere near that to ship from VA to MD... I could drive and pick them up myself for like $5 worth of gas...
But I really do like the minis so...
I am glad that they did not cave in and up the boxes from 12- 18 or 24... While I would love extra models, it would cause me to doubt the plan they have or the things they have said and likely to pull out completely.
But as I said, I like the models so I am still in.
Yeah in the Shipping section on the campaign page.
"Shipping costs are not included in your pledge and will be charged at the end of the campaign. US and EU customers will not pay custom fees thanks to our warehouses located in Italy and Virginia. The above label shows the approximate shipping costs for campaign pledges. Weight and costs may vary depending on add-ons and/or stretch goals."
Basically what I read from Fireforge's response is that they paid a lot more for sculpting than they did for their previous efforts. There aren't more mold cavities for the fantasy v historical, their aren't more options, and they are reusing the same command sprue across each faction.
The sculpting is a big step up, and these will definitely be higher quality than their current kits, but I'm not sure they are the right price to get enough people to give you their money far in advance.
I think that them working hard and being flexible to get this to fund is a sign that a significant portion of their capital for this project has already been spent on the sculpting and prep for the campaign. This isn't a bad thing, or a sign of something nefarious, it is just evidence that they paid more for sculpting, and want to recoup as much of those costs as possible.
Their response also makes me question whether they believe that these minis are indeed taller than their historical counterparts.
i will be happy to answer in a more complete way like a behind the enemy lines:
historical range vs fantasy range price
it is not a case if our company has historical medieval kits better than other companies in quality. Selling good plastic in our market could be an heavy loss for a company: the market is not enough big.
Each company, use a different strategy to avoid the failure, there is who decreases the number of figures and their quality, who simply doesn't do plastic for medieval but choose more bigger markets (like classical age), who works in china, who choose to cut discounts to retailers and so on. Each product is the result of what a company think to earn and the cost to release this product.
Our company, created a new system to make plastic products: we recycle parts of one sprue to use it in other sets. This system has defects and good things of course but it worked well, so well that other companies followed our way.
But it does not means that this system solved us all the problems, we have still products that after 4 years from the release are far to be a profit for our company and are still sold in loss considering the production costs.
Our new fantasy range is born to be something different: is the best our company can do, without any compromise.
In fantasy market we believe that Games Workshop has the best and offer the best. We tried with this project to offer our best too:
- we adjusted proportion of the models remaining in the same scale
- we improved the deepness, the definition of any details to be easier to paint and better to see (chainmail of our historical and the one you will see are completely different)
- we created a better joint system between the different parts where possible
- we inserted in the frames a lot of options (the max we can) to assemble what we think are nice figures
- we didn't recycle parts from other fantasy sets, any sprue will be create by 0
and these are just some of the changes we did to our production.
If you take our boxes from the start of our company to the fantasy (walking between our resin releases from the mongols to the amazons for fantasy football to richard the lionheart as character), you could see all the try did from our company to improve the quality of our models. You will find also some experiments (like in russians and scandinavians with spears separated by the hands to decrease the production costs a bit).
The fantasy is in absolute the best and the most expensive project we ever did and the cost we will ask to be covered with the kickstarter campaign will be not the real cost of the production, but a bit lower because our company will be able to release them also just with part of the expenses paid thanks to the backers.
I know that an huge number of zombies are used in other games, but however our products are thought for our game. Otherwise, to give you an huge number of zombies in each box, we should decrease the quality of the models
These two sets, are from 2 different companies, they seems nice sets, but what they really give to you?
Just from here you can understand the difference of quality between the two products: GW is better, simply because the hands of the model are separate parts and give you the way to do more different poses like you want.
About our peasants zombies, they will have in the box the following parts:
6 different bodies (mantic give you 3 bodies, gw give you 5 bodies): our peasants and soldiers will have the body as one piece, while mantic and gw separated the torsos by the legs to obtain more poses. We decided that gw and mantic solution could be worst for us because yes give you more poses available, but in this way we can't create female zombies (or different armour styles for the soldiers) and we decided for this solution to have a better design for the figures (i think it's easy to see how is better the shape of the bodies of our peasants than mantic and gw models)
9 different heads (mantic 6, gw 8)
18 different arms (mantic 2 - they have 2 arms attached to the bodies - gw 18): while our arms are some free (3) some with weapons or accessories (like lantern, falchion, butcher knife and cleaver) some to be attached to be equipped with 2 handed objects like schythe, showel and more.
GW zombies have a command option. We thought it was bad to see peasants with command option, so we inserted in the zombie soldiers frame the command you can use for peasants (pratically buying a box of zombie soldiers you can assemble 2 command options and use the second in a group of peasants). It also means that the money for production, instead to be spent on the peasants, for aesthetics purposes are spent on the zombie soldiers (that have a lot more options than peasants). Also the aesthetics is important for us.
I'm not bitter or angry about their "no PM" stance at all (if that's allowed on the internet?) Like, I do hope they fund all the best to and for them, but I ultimately won't be fussed about skipping it even if it does fund.
Sure, it's allowed. It sounds like the better option for you is to wait when they hit retail, and see at that time if you would like to buy some.
You leaving doesn't make a difference about the funding, anyway. 1$ Pledges are useless for the campaign.
This pic from waaay back in thread is a better scale comparison imo.
To me it's pretty clear that these new models are a lot thicker than their historicals or others like the Perry ones featured, legs are almost twice as thick for one thing.
While the new models are relatively plain I think that's deliberate to widen potential usage and that we've all become so familiar with GWs flourishes and often excessive detail, that they look plainer still than we might expect.
That said, I think the sculpting quality difference between their historicals and the KS models is quite clear and shows demonstrable improvement.
The new models are definitely better than the historical ones, but I’ve decided to wait as well. The best deal to me is the early bird, but I have no need for zombies as I have plenty of zombicide zombies. I know they are different styles, but I just don’t need the undead. Also want to see how the humans line up with zombicide.
Theophony wrote: The new models are definitely better than the historical ones, but I’ve decided to wait as well. The best deal to me is the early bird, but I have no need for zombies as I have plenty of zombicide zombies. I know they are different styles, but I just don’t need the undead. Also want to see how the humans line up with zombicide.
I thought CMON's ASOIAF minis were the same size as the Zombicide minis?
Theophony wrote: The new models are definitely better than the historical ones, but I’ve decided to wait as well. The best deal to me is the early bird, but I have no need for zombies as I have plenty of zombicide zombies. I know they are different styles, but I just don’t need the undead. Also want to see how the humans line up with zombicide.
I thought CMON's ASOIAF minis were the same size as the Zombicide minis?
I couldn’t remember what size they were and didn’t see it on ASOIAF kickstart page. If they are then I think they will be fine, but for some reason I thought they were larger.
Theophony wrote: The new models are definitely better than the historical ones, but I’ve decided to wait as well. The best deal to me is the early bird, but I have no need for zombies as I have plenty of zombicide zombies. I know they are different styles, but I just don’t need the undead. Also want to see how the humans line up with zombicide.
I thought CMON's ASOIAF minis were the same size as the Zombicide minis?
I couldn’t remember what size they were and didn’t see it on ASOIAF kickstart page. If they are then I think they will be fine, but for some reason I thought they were larger.
This campaign is starting to remind me why I didn't go in on the ASOIAF game--the fantasy minis were just too bland to go all in. I might pick up some of the Tully Sworn Swords because they look like fantasy troops, but Fireforge has nothing quite so exciting on offer, other than the peasants. And I'm starting to think it might be a good idea to wait and see if the peasants even happen.
It's a real shame that folk won't even consider a KS now unless it goes through the CMoN-style pageantry of ludicrous piles of freebies and faux-stretch goals.
I want these models to exist, so I'm backing it. You know, the whole original point of crowdfunding...
Yodhrin wrote: It's a real shame that folk won't even consider a KS now unless it goes through the CMoN-style pageantry of ludicrous piles of freebies and faux-stretch goals.
I want these models to exist, so I'm backing it. You know, the whole original point of crowdfunding...
the question is not whether i want them to exist. I very much do.
The question is what does my investment get me? If I can wait and get a better deal on retail, what makes it worth my investment?
I want the peasants to exist. I don't want to accidentally subsidize the Northmen, at least not for two boxes worth plus shipping. Maybe they can run a second campaign for the peasants so we don't have to play guilty-pledge chicken.
ScarletRose wrote: Those Northmen seem like an ideal base for a medieval Imperial Guard army.
I'm tempted.
That's why I'm doing it - they're perfect for guard, for Mordheim, and for Frostgrave, all my interests for human soldier minis, specifically because they're a tremendous base model. I like that they aren't quite as beleaguered as Empire base troops, too; hardy looking fellows, simple gear. I can do the ornamenting myself. Join us!
Also, the peasants are going to be great.
I can't express how nice it has been to have them say 'no, we cant do that' where they cant, and quickly adjust to our group desires where they can - it has really improved my confidence, because they aren't selling smoke. I hope it gets done, I have such plans!
The question is what does my investment get me? If I can wait and get a better deal on retail, what makes it worth my investment?
Well, if the project doesn't fund, it's unlikely it'll hit retail at all. You know, the whole point of crowfunding it...
Otherwise, I don't think it's really a question of value first here. The project in itself is good, but well...I guess the market is really bloated with this kind of stuff now. Maybe Fireforge should just give up with this fantasy project. It would be a shame for variety, but hey, if the customers don't follow, there's no point in launching something that will put you at a clear loss.
ScarletRose wrote: Those Northmen seem like an ideal base for a medieval Imperial Guard army.
I'm tempted.
That's why I'm doing it - they're perfect for guard, for Mordheim, and for Frostgrave, all my interests for human soldier minis, specifically because they're a tremendous base model. I like that they aren't quite as beleaguered as Empire base troops, too; hardy looking fellows, simple gear. I can do the ornamenting myself. Join us!
Also, the peasants are going to be great.
I can't express how nice it has been to have them say 'no, we cant do that' where they cant, and quickly adjust to our group desires where they can - it has really improved my confidence, because they aren't selling smoke. I hope it gets done, I have such plans!
I'm tempted enough too for the same reasons to back the kickstarter and post something as well. The northmen will look great to my eye as imperial guard allied with my imperial knights.
I cooled from the kickstarter craze due to stockpiling, a failed project and edge of world shipping, but this appeals also from point of view this is crowdfunding to allow item creation (a la dreamforge ) rather than a pre-order system; the preordering is a personal peeve. Fireforge is known entity/business in wargaming so risk is much lower.
It all boils down to how much they appeal and what their use is, for me, they've met my thresholds to cough up some dough.
Yodhrin wrote: It's a real shame that folk won't even consider a KS now unless it goes through the CMoN-style pageantry of ludicrous piles of freebies and faux-stretch goals.
I want these models to exist, so I'm backing it. You know, the whole original point of crowdfunding...
the question is not whether i want them to exist. I very much do.
The question is what does my investment get me? If I can wait and get a better deal on retail, what makes it worth my investment?
Err, them existing? That's exactly what I mean - Kickstarter is not an "investment". It's not a bargain sale. Done properly, KS is a company or creator coming to the public and saying "I want to make these, if you want to buy them then I need your help to cover the setup costs.", and that's it. It's traditional to give backers a little something extra as a thank you, sure(and this KS does that with the freebie characters), but the basic core of the thing is you pay now so the models have a chance to exist later, or they don't exist at all, end of. If people all "wait and get a better deal on retail", then nobody gets a better deal on retail, because they don't get made.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I want the peasants to exist. I don't want to accidentally subsidize the Northmen, at least not for two boxes worth plus shipping. Maybe they can run a second campaign for the peasants so we don't have to play guilty-pledge chicken.
"Guilty pledge chicken" - oh please. Even if someone is the kind of person who might forget to pull a pledge intended for a stretch goal if it doesn't get hit, it sends multiple email reminders towards the end. They're launching a fantasy range, not one kit, and they've already tried to pander to the RPG/peasant fans by bumping that stretch goal further up.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I want the peasants to exist. I don't want to accidentally subsidize the Northmen, at least not for two boxes worth plus shipping. Maybe they can run a second campaign for the peasants so we don't have to play guilty-pledge chicken.
I don’t understand your issue here. FireForge already changed the KS so the peasant rabble gets made if the project hits the funding goal of 130,000 Euros, they will just ship later in a second wave. The campaign already allows you to do a 1 Euro pledge and add the cost of an add on, the peasant rabble is a 16 Euro add on per box. Pledge at the 1 Euro level but pledge $18 and you’ll get one box of peasant rabble if the project funds. You don’t have to pay for Northmen boxes if you just want peasants and if this KS funds the peasants get made.
Yeah, I don't know why but the amount of negativity I'm seeing here for a KS that is more like a proper KS, as Yodhrin said, is surprising.
Of course, theres a good amount of reasonable criticism, or analisis about how this isn't funding as fast as it could. But I don't see a problem with the "value" of this kickstarter. CMON has spoiled people, and thats why man kickstarters fail on deliver because they try to follow the same formula.
Fireforge is being honest here about what they can and can't. If that isn't enough to fund, it is fair. But it would be a shame for it to not be funded because people just want 400 minitaures for 100$.
Yodhrin wrote: It's a real shame that folk won't even consider a KS now unless it goes through the CMoN-style pageantry of ludicrous piles of freebies and faux-stretch goals.
I want these models to exist, so I'm backing it. You know, the whole original point of crowdfunding...
the question is not whether i want them to exist. I very much do.
The question is what does my investment get me? If I can wait and get a better deal on retail, what makes it worth my investment?
Err, them existing? That's exactly what I mean - Kickstarter is not an "investment". It's not a bargain sale. Done properly, KS is a company or creator coming to the public and saying "I want to make these, if you want to buy them then I need your help to cover the setup costs.", and that's it. It's traditional to give backers a little something extra as a thank you, sure(and this KS does that with the freebie characters), but the basic core of the thing is you pay now so the models have a chance to exist later, or they don't exist at all, end of. If people all "wait and get a better deal on retail", then nobody gets a better deal on retail, because they don't get made.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I want the peasants to exist. I don't want to accidentally subsidize the Northmen, at least not for two boxes worth plus shipping. Maybe they can run a second campaign for the peasants so we don't have to play guilty-pledge chicken.
"Guilty pledge chicken" - oh please. Even if someone is the kind of person who might forget to pull a pledge intended for a stretch goal if it doesn't get hit, it sends multiple email reminders towards the end. They're launching a fantasy range, not one kit, and they've already tried to pander to the RPG/peasant fans by bumping that stretch goal further up.
How is a Kickstarter not an investment into their business that doesn't gave me any Capital interest in their business? Why should any of us backers subsidize their product costs if the return is not equal to what we put in?
You know, I wonder if the marginal cost of additional sprues is higher than what often gets assumed around here of ten cents or so. On projects like this with HIPS plastic, it is always surprising to me that creators don't offer a lot more freebie sprues as a way to massively increase the value to backers while only adding a few cents to their costs.
Fireforge's current problem is that there aren't enough people willing to pay upfront a year in advance for what is basically a very small discount off retail. Yohdrin and backers like him may get enough value from the "I helped create this" warm fuzzy feelings to make it worth it, but I think there are a lot of people that say "Hey, if you want me to fund a mold that you then own and get to sell miniatures from for the next 10+ years, I want a better deal than a small discount off retail, I'm an investor not a customer." I think that is the magic of CMON campaigns. They give massive discounts in exchange for your capital, and then they go on to make money at retail off the game backers funded the production costs of.
Gallahad wrote: You know, I wonder if the marginal cost of additional sprues is higher than what often gets assumed around here of ten cents or so. On projects like this with HIPS plastic, it is always surprising to me that creators don't offer a lot more freebie sprues as a way to massively increase the value to backers while only adding a few cents to their costs.
Fireforge's current problem is that there aren't enough people willing to pay upfront a year in advance for what is basically a very small discount off retail. Yohdrin and backers like him may get enough value from the "I helped create this" warm fuzzy feelings to make it worth it, but I think there are a lot of people that say "Hey, if you want me to fund a mold that you then own and get to sell miniatures from for the next 10+ years, I want a better deal than a small discount off retail, I'm an investor not a customer." I think that is the magic of CMON campaigns. They give massive discounts in exchange for your capital, and then they go on to make money at retail off the game backers funded the production costs of.
Yeah I'm not really sure where this attitude that "pEopLE ArE SpOiLED!" because they don't throw money at you when you come begging for it started, but I don't think it's a very good look. You want your product line to exist, okay, that's nice, what are you offering me to help make your dream a reality? If the answer is, "Not that much because you've just been SPOILED by my competitors!" then it's time to go get another job. Using your hands.
I think Fireforge did an okay job setting up this campaign, they didn't show a strong grasp of 'what Kickstarter is for,' but the value and offering is still okay. And I think if they manage to get 1,500 people for a miniature wargame line, that's pretty good. This isn't a board game like CMON would make, it's a line of fantasy-historical models, a much smaller Kickstarter market.
Yodhrin wrote: It's a real shame that folk won't even consider a KS now unless it goes through the CMoN-style pageantry of ludicrous piles of freebies and faux-stretch goals.
I want these models to exist, so I'm backing it. You know, the whole original point of crowdfunding...
the question is not whether i want them to exist. I very much do.
The question is what does my investment get me? If I can wait and get a better deal on retail, what makes it worth my investment?
Err, them existing? That's exactly what I mean - Kickstarter is not an "investment". It's not a bargain sale. Done properly, KS is a company or creator coming to the public and saying "I want to make these, if you want to buy them then I need your help to cover the setup costs.", and that's it. It's traditional to give backers a little something extra as a thank you, sure(and this KS does that with the freebie characters), but the basic core of the thing is you pay now so the models have a chance to exist later, or they don't exist at all, end of. If people all "wait and get a better deal on retail", then nobody gets a better deal on retail, because they don't get made.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I want the peasants to exist. I don't want to accidentally subsidize the Northmen, at least not for two boxes worth plus shipping. Maybe they can run a second campaign for the peasants so we don't have to play guilty-pledge chicken.
"Guilty pledge chicken" - oh please. Even if someone is the kind of person who might forget to pull a pledge intended for a stretch goal if it doesn't get hit, it sends multiple email reminders towards the end. They're launching a fantasy range, not one kit, and they've already tried to pander to the RPG/peasant fans by bumping that stretch goal further up.
How is a Kickstarter not an investment into their business that doesn't gave me any Capital interest in their business? Why should any of us backers subsidize their product costs if the return is not equal to what we put in?
Because it's not an investment, and you evidently know that since you state the reason why right there: you don't get any capital return. You don't get any stock. You get the product that otherwise wouldn't exist, but by paying for that product up-front you enable the company to make it. That is the sum-total of the core relationship in crowdfunding, and that is a return that's equal to what you put in; money becomes product, time waiting for the product to arrive is the cost of its existence.
What you want is a return that is greater than your "investment", you want the company to be grateful to you and express that gratitude with free stuff. Which this KS is still doing, but you've decided it's not enough free stuff.
And as for:
frankelee wrote: Yeah I'm not really sure where this attitude that "pEopLE ArE SpOiLED!" because they don't throw money at you when you come begging for it started, but I don't think it's a very good look. You want your product line to exist, okay, that's nice, what are you offering me to help make your dream a reality?.
See above. Crowdfunding is about combining the creators "dream" with the customer's desire for that dream to exist for their gratification. It's not altruism, but it's not sodding venture capital either, the point is supposed to be symbiosis. But sadly, a few companies realised they could make a mint catering to people who don't particularly care about any of these projects and just have money to burn chucking it at whoever offers them the biggest pile of stuff by running glorified preorder campaigns for stuff that's already funded and ready for production under the guise of crowdfunding, and now when genuine creators come along actually trying to pay for the thing they want to create there's always some chucklemonkey who'll come along and start spouting their Wolf of Wall Street rhetoric and demanding the Earth and why don't they throw in the Moon while they're at it, the bloody beggars
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I want the peasants to exist. I don't want to accidentally subsidize the Northmen, at least not for two boxes worth plus shipping. Maybe they can run a second campaign for the peasants so we don't have to play guilty-pledge chicken.
I don’t understand your issue here. FireForge already changed the KS so the peasant rabble gets made if the project hits the funding goal of 130,000 Euros, they will just ship later in a second wave. The campaign already allows you to do a 1 Euro pledge and add the cost of an add on, the peasant rabble is a 16 Euro add on per box. Pledge at the 1 Euro level but pledge $18 and you’ll get one box of peasant rabble if the project funds. You don’t have to pay for Northmen boxes if you just want peasants and if this KS funds the peasants get made.
I thought the peasants were the next goal after funding is achieved. And I had a higher pledge level to help "do my part" to make sure they happen. But if the peasants will happen anyway with funding, then I suppose there is less pressure for me to help fund their goal. So I might as well drop down to a euro pledge and bump up in the pledge manager guilt free.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I want the peasants to exist. I don't want to accidentally subsidize the Northmen, at least not for two boxes worth plus shipping. Maybe they can run a second campaign for the peasants so we don't have to play guilty-pledge chicken.
I don’t understand your issue here. FireForge already changed the KS so the peasant rabble gets made if the project hits the funding goal of 130,000 Euros, they will just ship later in a second wave. The campaign already allows you to do a 1 Euro pledge and add the cost of an add on, the peasant rabble is a 16 Euro add on per box. Pledge at the 1 Euro level but pledge $18 and you’ll get one box of peasant rabble if the project funds. You don’t have to pay for Northmen boxes if you just want peasants and if this KS funds the peasants get made.
I thought the peasants were the next goal after funding is achieved. And I had a higher pledge level to help "do my part" to make sure they happen. But if the peasants will happen anyway with funding, then I suppose there is less pressure for me to help fund their goal. So I might as well drop down to a euro pledge and bump up in the pledge manager guilt free.
Bob, so you want the peasant rabble to fund, and will back I. The pledge manager but don’t want your money to actually be used to fund anything?
I can understand if you can pledge now for financial reasons, but from your statement before it sounds like you specifically don’t want to pledge because your money will help fund other things (subsidize) that you don’t want.
I lean more on Yodrin’s side here. I understand that everyone backs for different reasons. The only time I really backed because I believed in helping a creator and was t really interested in the game was my only real failed Kickstarter... Torn Armor...
Failed
I back plenty of smaller campaigns to help smaller players in the field. I don't really feel like Fireforge are a small player. I've bought plenty of their ever-expanding range of plastics at retail, so I mentally consider them closer to the CMON side of the Kickstarter scale.
Money is tight right now because I pledged for Heresylab, Imoact! And others. I have only the barest interest in the Northmen (enough to trade for a sprue or two when it hits retail) and none at all in their zombies. If I make a plate to support the peasants, and they don't fund, I'll be stuck with funds that have to be spent on miniatures I don't want for a price I consider unattractive. If the peasants are funding anyway, then why should I keep my uncomfortably high pledge in when it isn't needed? If I thought it was needed to get the peasants made, I'd leave it (unless their prospects looked bad at the last minute), but this new information indicates the campaign doesn't work how I thought it did.
My apologies. I misunderstood then. I had thought that you were backing in the pledge manager specifically so money would not go to fund things you didn’t want.
Because it's not an investment, and you evidently know that since you state the reason why right there: you don't get any capital return. You don't get any stock. You get the product that otherwise wouldn't exist, but by paying for that product up-front you enable the company to make it. That is the sum-total of the core relationship in crowdfunding, and that is a return that's equal to what you put in; money becomes product, time waiting for the product to arrive is the cost of its existence.
What you want is a return that is greater than your "investment", you want the company to be grateful to you and express that gratitude with free stuff. Which this KS is still doing, but you've decided it's not enough free stuff.
And as for:
frankelee wrote: Yeah I'm not really sure where this attitude that "pEopLE ArE SpOiLED!" because they don't throw money at you when you come begging for it started, but I don't think it's a very good look. You want your product line to exist, okay, that's nice, what are you offering me to help make your dream a reality?.
See above. Crowdfunding is about combining the creators "dream" with the customer's desire for that dream to exist for their gratification. It's not altruism, but it's not sodding venture capital either, the point is supposed to be symbiosis. But sadly, a few companies realised they could make a mint catering to people who don't particularly care about any of these projects and just have money to burn chucking it at whoever offers them the biggest pile of stuff by running glorified preorder campaigns for stuff that's already funded and ready for production under the guise of crowdfunding, and now when genuine creators come along actually trying to pay for the thing they want to create there's always some chucklemonkey who'll come along and start spouting their Wolf of Wall Street rhetoric and demanding the Earth and why don't they throw in the Moon while they're at it, the bloody beggars
I understand that you are passionate about this topic, but calling people who disagree with you chucklemonkey bloody beggars won't win you any converts.
To use your language, not enough people want to enter into a symbiotic relationship with Fireforge to produce these miniatures, because the symbiosis feels lopsided, or compares unfavourably with lots of other potential symbiotic relationships available to them. There are lots of very cool miniatures that currently don't exist in my collection. I can enter into immediate symbiotic relationships with their creators, at a smaller time and money cost than what Fireforge is offering. That is why my pledge remains modest.
They've already confirmed you won't get access to the PM if you pledge just €1 you need to buy something in the KS even it that's just €16 for 1 box or €8 for a Hero. So really €8 is you cheapest buy in here.
Heroes will be available to buy even if their stretch goal isn't met - the stretch goal just gets them included free at certain pledges
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I back plenty of smaller campaigns to help smaller players in the field. I don't really feel like Fireforge are a small player. I've bought plenty of their ever-expanding range of plastics at retail, so I mentally consider them closer to the CMON side of the Kickstarter scale.
Money is tight right now because I pledged for Heresylab, Imoact! And others. I have only the barest interest in the Northmen (enough to trade for a sprue or two when it hits retail) and none at all in their zombies. If I make a plate to support the peasants, and they don't fund, I'll be stuck with funds that have to be spent on miniatures I don't want for a price I consider unattractive. If the peasants are funding anyway, then why should I keep my uncomfortably high pledge in when it isn't needed? If I thought it was needed to get the peasants made, I'd leave it (unless their prospects looked bad at the last minute), but this new information indicates the campaign doesn't work how I thought it did.
Just be aware that Fireforge stated that you can't bump your pledge up in the pledge manager. The money you put in now is the money you will have to spend if it funds. The peasants unlock when the campaign funds just like the other human and undead units.
DaveC wrote: They've already confirmed you won't get access to the PM if you pledge just €1 you need to buy something in the KS even it that's just €16 for 1 box or €8 for a Hero. So really €8 is you cheapest buy in here.
Heroes will be available to buy even if their stretch goal isn't met - the stretch goal just gets them included free at certain pledges
I thought they said you couldn’t change pledge levels but you could still add stuff as add ins? I can’t see the FAQ from my phone. I thought you couldn’t switched from veteran to general for example, but if your in for a $1 you could add as much as you want?
I am in for the General level but debating on dropping to early bird and going in for another early bird on my son’s account.
Gallahad you can bump your pledge and add more in the PM you just can't change pledge level or only pledge €1 - you can choose the €1 pledge to access add ons but you have to buy at least 1 add on during the campaign.
Will there be a Pledge Manager and can I add more funds in the PM?
Yes, we will do a post campaign, pledge manager to modify or add more funds to your order.
Can I change pledge level in the PM?
No, you can’t.
Can I pledge €1 now and still access the PM?
Only if you will increase your pledge during the campaign to get add-ons.
So one euro gets me nothing in the PM? This is getting convoluted. And frustrating. If they didn't want to Kickstarter, they shouldn't have kickstartered.
Correct - you can choose the €1 pledge level to access add ons but you must buy at least one add on during the KS to get access to the PM - cheapest option is a hero on foot €8. Or pledge €16 during the KS (€1 pledge level) and pick a box of peasants in the PM as they are unlocked as soon as the KS funds at €130,000.If it funds you get your Peasants if it doesn't there's no charge anyway so no great risk. As you have access to the PM through buying an add on you could then buy more later in PM.
Aside from that from reading the recent KS comments it sounds like they might be planning to add more value with more free sprues.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: So one euro gets me nothing in the PM? This is getting convoluted. And frustrating. If they didn't want to Kickstarter, they shouldn't have kickstartered.
You have to purchase as least 1 add on item via the 1 Euro pledge to have PM access. I don't know why they chose to make it be like that either.
I think they wanted to crowdfund these fantasy kits to make sure there was enough demand to make the launch successful and Kickstarter has become the most viable and visible crowdfunding site so that forces projects to conform to Kickstarter policies even when sometimes that creates a poor fit.
I'm in for the 3 box pledge for zombies. I really don't need a massive amount of minis but three boxes for less than $60 that gets me armoured and unarmored infantry plus a cavalry unit in a unified aesthetic gives me a core force that's plenty big for games and to which I can add the Frostgrave cultists and zombies I made from that box and the two boxes of old GW zombies plus the Zombicide games. Plus I can always add a few boxes of their historical kits for $23 each via the PM if I decide I can afford it later.
From my viewpoint it seems like the market is just catching up to the fact that 28mm or 32mm scale isn't a great scale for mass battles. Its a good scale to make nice miniatures and mass battles in that scale certainly look awesome and are fun to play they just aren't fun to find storage room for everything and invest the time required to get everything painted. I enjoy CMON's Zombicide games and the amount of stuff you from the KS campaigns is good value but it's also a difficult volume to deal with in a lot of ways. Value is good but how much value is there in hero models that rarely if ever get used or extra zombies that rarely get used all at once?
frankelee wrote: Yeah I'm not really sure where this attitude that "pEopLE ArE SpOiLED!" because they don't throw money at you when you come begging for it started, but I don't think it's a very good look. You want your product line to exist, okay, that's nice, what are you offering me to help make your dream a reality?.
See above. Crowdfunding is about combining the creators "dream" with the customer's desire for that dream to exist for their gratification. It's not altruism, but it's not sodding venture capital either, the point is supposed to be symbiosis. But sadly, a few companies realised they could make a mint catering to people who don't particularly care about any of these projects and just have money to burn chucking it at whoever offers them the biggest pile of stuff by running glorified preorder campaigns for stuff that's already funded and ready for production under the guise of crowdfunding, and now when genuine creators come along actually trying to pay for the thing they want to create there's always some chucklemonkey who'll come along and start spouting their Wolf of Wall Street rhetoric and demanding the Earth and why don't they throw in the Moon while they're at it, the bloody beggars
Heheheh, it seems you want it a lot of different ways all at once. Unfortunately, your "symbiosis" is a little too black and white to survive first contact with reality. I think helping them make their project, as a company you appreciate, is definitely a part of crowd-funding, but it is only just a part. When you call consumers "spoiled" however you are not seeing it as a part, you are making it the end all and be all.
I feel the tug of supporting Fireforge myself, but if you were to theoretically need 100 Motivation Points within someone to get them to pledge, I'd say the desire to see their new line come out is worth about 20 Motivation Points to me. Leaving a decent amount remaining to be fulfilled through other means, such as models I really want at prices that make up for the long delay and extra shipping costs. Telling people that they're "SPOILED!!!111!!!" because they need more than just the smile on your face when your project gets funded is unrealistic and missing the reality of crowdfunding altogether.
These companies want an interest free, year plus long loan, of course the consumer is right to ask "what are you going to do for me?" Because fact is the people like you who are satisfied with the warm fuzzy feeling of paying for somebody's tooling costs are insufficient in number to fund these six and seven figure campaigns. Including this one. I'm afraid your sense of balance as to who gets a fair deal is delusionally skewed toward one side, which makes you see the middle as being a bunch of Jordan Belforts.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: So one euro gets me nothing in the PM? This is getting convoluted. And frustrating. If they didn't want to Kickstarter, they shouldn't have kickstartered.
Maybe if you don't want to kickstart, you shouldn't kickstart? Your entitlement is getting a bit grating. Realize that we were spoiled by amazing "preorder" type kickstarters where the targets, stretch goals and rewards have more to do with buyer psychology than any real economics. And now we're seeing an actual textbook campaign and complaining about how bad it is when it's really exactly what Kicstarters were supposed to be like. You don't get discounted prices later just for throwing a single euro at the campaign? Boo freakin' hoo.
frankelee wrote: Yeah I'm not really sure where this attitude that "pEopLE ArE SpOiLED!" because they don't throw money at you when you come begging for it started, but I don't think it's a very good look. You want your product line to exist, okay, that's nice, what are you offering me to help make your dream a reality?.
See above. Crowdfunding is about combining the creators "dream" with the customer's desire for that dream to exist for their gratification. It's not altruism, but it's not sodding venture capital either, the point is supposed to be symbiosis. But sadly, a few companies realised they could make a mint catering to people who don't particularly care about any of these projects and just have money to burn chucking it at whoever offers them the biggest pile of stuff by running glorified preorder campaigns for stuff that's already funded and ready for production under the guise of crowdfunding, and now when genuine creators come along actually trying to pay for the thing they want to create there's always some chucklemonkey who'll come along and start spouting their Wolf of Wall Street rhetoric and demanding the Earth and why don't they throw in the Moon while they're at it, the bloody beggars
Heheheh, it seems you want it a lot of different ways all at once. Unfortunately, your "symbiosis" is a little too black and white to survive first contact with reality. I think helping them make their project, as a company you appreciate, is definitely a part of crowd-funding, but it is only just a part. When you call consumers "spoiled" however you are not seeing it as a part, you are making it the end all and be all.
I feel the tug of supporting Fireforge myself, but if you were to theoretically need 100 Motivation Points within someone to get them to pledge, I'd say the desire to see their new line come out is worth about 20 Motivation Points to me. Leaving a decent amount remaining to be fulfilled through other means, such as models I really want at prices that make up for the long delay and extra shipping costs. Telling people that they're "SPOILED!!!111!!!" because they need more than just the smile on your face when your project gets funded is unrealistic and missing the reality of crowdfunding altogether.
These companies want an interest free, year plus long loan, of course the consumer is right to ask "what are you going to do for me?" Because fact is the people like you who are satisfied with the warm fuzzy feeling of paying for somebody's tooling costs are insufficient in number to fund these six and seven figure campaigns. Including this one. I'm afraid your sense of balance as to who gets a fair deal is delusionally skewed toward one side, which makes you see the middle as being a bunch of Jordan Belforts.
It's not a loan, it's a prepayment to help fund the cost of manufacturing the produce that will be sent you upon the successful conclusion of the process. That's what you get from funding the KS, the product that is manufactured by the KS creator. The elasticity of the price of demand for the product is always going to be determined by a host of factors that differ with each individual perspective backer. If you don't have a high interest in the product then it's going to be extremely difficult for the creator to convince you to back the project. If you have a strong desire to own the product that the creator wants to make then there should be KS pledge level that the creator can have for the project that is worth it for you to pay for the quantity of the product you wish to purchase.
I don't know we keep rehashing the same discussion every time a KS thread goes more than a few pages. This isn't complicated stuff, it's the most basic economic principles.
frankelee wrote: Yeah I'm not really sure where this attitude that "pEopLE ArE SpOiLED!" because they don't throw money at you when you come begging for it started, but I don't think it's a very good look. You want your product line to exist, okay, that's nice, what are you offering me to help make your dream a reality?.
See above. Crowdfunding is about combining the creators "dream" with the customer's desire for that dream to exist for their gratification. It's not altruism, but it's not sodding venture capital either, the point is supposed to be symbiosis. But sadly, a few companies realised they could make a mint catering to people who don't particularly care about any of these projects and just have money to burn chucking it at whoever offers them the biggest pile of stuff by running glorified preorder campaigns for stuff that's already funded and ready for production under the guise of crowdfunding, and now when genuine creators come along actually trying to pay for the thing they want to create there's always some chucklemonkey who'll come along and start spouting their Wolf of Wall Street rhetoric and demanding the Earth and why don't they throw in the Moon while they're at it, the bloody beggars
Heheheh, it seems you want it a lot of different ways all at once. Unfortunately, your "symbiosis" is a little too black and white to survive first contact with reality. I think helping them make their project, as a company you appreciate, is definitely a part of crowd-funding, but it is only just a part. When you call consumers "spoiled" however you are not seeing it as a part, you are making it the end all and be all.
I feel the tug of supporting Fireforge myself, but if you were to theoretically need 100 Motivation Points within someone to get them to pledge, I'd say the desire to see their new line come out is worth about 20 Motivation Points to me. Leaving a decent amount remaining to be fulfilled through other means, such as models I really want at prices that make up for the long delay and extra shipping costs. Telling people that they're "SPOILED!!!111!!!" because they need more than just the smile on your face when your project gets funded is unrealistic and missing the reality of crowdfunding altogether.
These companies want an interest free, year plus long loan, of course the consumer is right to ask "what are you going to do for me?" Because fact is the people like you who are satisfied with the warm fuzzy feeling of paying for somebody's tooling costs are insufficient in number to fund these six and seven figure campaigns. Including this one. I'm afraid your sense of balance as to who gets a fair deal is delusionally skewed toward one side, which makes you see the middle as being a bunch of Jordan Belforts.
It's not a loan, it's a prepayment to help fund the cost of manufacturing the produce that will be sent you upon the successful conclusion of the process. That's what you get from funding the KS, the product that is manufactured by the KS creator. The elasticity of the price of demand for the product is always going to be determined by a host of factors that differ with each individual perspective backer. If you don't have a high interest in the product then it's going to be extremely difficult for the creator to convince you to back the project. If you have a strong desire to own the product that the creator wants to make then there should be KS pledge level that the creator can have for the project that is worth it for you to pay for the quantity of the product you wish to purchase.
I don't know we keep rehashing the same discussion every time a KS thread goes more than a few pages. This isn't complicated stuff, it's the most basic economic principles.
A prepayment for something that has not been manufactured yet is a loan in advance to cover partial manufacturing costs
Galas wrote: Yeah, I don't know why but the amount of negativity I'm seeing here for a KS that is more like a proper KS, as Yodhrin said, is surprising.
Of course, theres a good amount of reasonable criticism, or analisis about how this isn't funding as fast as it could. But I don't see a problem with the "value" of this kickstarter. CMON has spoiled people, and thats why man kickstarters fail on deliver because they try to follow the same formula.
Fireforge is being honest here about what they can and can't. If that isn't enough to fund, it is fair. But it would be a shame for it to not be funded because people just want 400 minitaures for 100$.
It doesn't need to offer crazytown numbers of models like a CMON campaign, but it should still offer a noticeably better value than waiting for retail when all is said and done - that's part of the expected deal of laying down a hundred bucks or more many months out and the payment for the risk that backers take. Fireforge is a business, not a charity.
As for their track record, yep, they're established, but so is/was Palladium, or for a track record producing the same minis the campaign promised: so were DUST and GF9/Battlefront Miniatures. So was Baker Company. Or Trollforged. There's always a risk, and there's no end of people that will happily chime in when a project fails to remind those backers that KS is always a risk...
I thought the peasants were the next goal after funding is achieved. And I had a higher pledge level to help "do my part" to make sure they happen. But if the peasants will happen anyway with funding, then I suppose there is less pressure for me to help fund their goal. So I might as well drop down to a euro pledge and bump up in the pledge manager guilt free.
No. They've explicitly said that you cant do that.
You would have to go for a 1 euro pledge level, but actually pledge the full amount for the models that you want. So, 16euros x however many you want. So if you want 2 boxes of rabble, you click the 1 euro pledge level but type 32euro into it. Then add the shipping later.
I'm not bitter or angry about their "no PM" stance at all (if that's allowed on the internet?) Like, I do hope they fund all the best to and for them, but I ultimately won't be fussed about skipping it even if it does fund.
Sure, it's allowed. It sounds like the better option for you is to wait when they hit retail, and see at that time if you would like to buy some.
You leaving doesn't make a difference about the funding, anyway. 1$ Pledges are useless for the campaign.
I think you misunderstand. I'm only in for $1 because the value isn't looking like it'll be better than waiting for retail. If it looked like it would be significantly better than retail (it would need to offset those shipping costs for starters) then I'd probably be in for a hundred euro or so. The "price" to backers is still higher than it needs to be. I'm sure they don't sell to retailers at MSRP-20% (and that's without taking retail VAT into consideration, which non-EU people don't need to pay.) I presume that when they sell product to retailers and distributors they still make a profit from it, so a small discount from their eventual MSRP/RRP, plus a hefty shipping cost isn't doing them a huge number of favours.
I still offering extra sprues is the way to go for stretches.
Heck, make the boxes for the KS include an extra set of figures compared to retail. I'm firmly in the camp that would like a bit better deal than retail. We're helping fund its creation, throw a few more bits of plastic our way!
It looks like they may be going in that direction:
legione
about 23 hours ago
Hello Fireforge games! would it make sense to add stretch goals that increase the number of sprues given out to the backers? I'm assuming that a single sprue doesn't cost very much (in material) and it might be a big boost for the project...
Something along the lines of
- once we reach X amount all the backers over 100 euro will get 1 additional sprue of human soldiers per box
- once we reach Y amount all the backers over 100 euro will get 1 additional sprue of undead soldiers per box
and so on
Reply Fireforge GamesCreator
about 22 hours ago
we are working on this way, next week we will show more
They may want to change any other free sprues up to people who spend over 150. That way they get people to get a pledge level and at least an extra box before they toss more free stuff at them. That would alleviate some of the drop off like what was said above.
People who whine about not getting retail packaging can suck it as far as I'm concerned. When you end up getting a damned good deal, that should be the least of your concerns.
I'll forever look to my crazy OG Minecart for Shadows of Brimstone as proof of that.
Happy to see they're considering throwing more bonus sprues in. I think that's the right path. Turning again to Shieldwolf as an example, I was able to recoup almost my entire pledge by trading and selling off individual sprues, none of which had retail packaging, with very little effort. In the end I still got to keep plenty of figures, more than enough to chop up and experiment with, paint for various games, give to friends and family, plus still have a good amount of resins to paint up for fun. Shieldwolf also got to get their figures out to market where they seem to be getting decent sales. Now if they'd stuck with one type of Sister model this last time around...
I'm hoping this gets funded soon though! There's a lot of neat stuff waiting for us!
I'm hoping this gets funded soon though! There's a lot of neat stuff waiting for us!
Me too!
I upped my initial pledge from 64euro to 120euro, kinda wish i had just gone for the early bird from the start but anyway i think i've worked out correctly that i can possibly get 7 boxes for my money as opposed to the early bird deal of 8 for that same amount pledged... Plus a couple of free frames thrown in so i think its all still pretty good value
But really i'm not that bothered with the freebies or what i've missed out on i just want to see it succeed!
£20k still needed with 20 days to go, lets hope so...
Has anyone else noticed on the armoured undead warriors sprue there's a distinct 3rd style of armour? Breastplate and chainmail skirt; could this be potentially another human faction in the future? Or the Elves???
I upped my initial pledge from 64euro to 120euro, kinda wish i had just gone for the early bird from the start but anyway i think i've worked out correctly that i can possibly get 7 boxes for my money as opposed to the early bird deal of 8 for that same amount pledged... Plus a couple of free frames thrown in so i think its all still pretty good value
But really i'm not that bothered with the freebies or what i've missed out on i just want to see it succeed!
£20k still needed with 20 days to go, lets hope so...
Has anyone else noticed on the armoured undead warriors sprue there's a distinct 3rd style of armour? Breastplate and chainmail skirt; could this be potentially another human faction in the future? Or the Elves???
There are still 588 Early Birds left just pick that level it's not restricted - mange your pledge to change level might as well get all the benefits while it's still available.
I upped my initial pledge from 64euro to 120euro, kinda wish i had just gone for the early bird from the start but anyway i think i've worked out correctly that i can possibly get 7 boxes for my money as opposed to the early bird deal of 8 for that same amount pledged... Plus a couple of free frames thrown in so i think its all still pretty good value
But really i'm not that bothered with the freebies or what i've missed out on i just want to see it succeed!
£20k still needed with 20 days to go, lets hope so...
Has anyone else noticed on the armoured undead warriors sprue there's a distinct 3rd style of armour? Breastplate and chainmail skirt; could this be potentially another human faction in the future? Or the Elves???
There are still 588 Early Birds left just pick that level it's not restricted - mange your pledge to change level might as well get all the benefits while it's still available.
DaveC thanks man, yeah i've done just that, I didn't think you were able to switch pledge levels but it looks like you can, hurrah!
The pledge and reward levels don't really seem to result in much reward for handing your money over a year early, ignoring the potential risk that it never delivers at all. I want to want it but despite the nice sculpts I'm going to sit on the sideline for now.
It is starting to look like 'waiting for retail' might be the best way if you're not completely convinced by what's on offer here.
I kind of like it all, but not sure if I like it enough to commit here, a lot, this far in advance, especially with other attractive prospects looming large as well.
My internet skills failed me while skim reading as much as I could...
Has there been any mention of the races/factions in the rulebook?
Obviously there's the Northmen and Undead, but another human faction and orcs are mentioned in the stretch goals.
Will there be lots of races all in the main rulebook or is this going to be a 'buy the army book' kind of game if the new models are released?
Dwarf preview - continuing with the inclusion of female variants
If the campaign funds then these will be worked on during 2019 if it doesn’t then resources will go back to releasing the Northerners and Living Dead. So it looks like they’ll press on whether funded or not but it will take a lot longer to release everything.
@Gimgamgoo Alpha rules should be out this week and it looks like they plan to cover later races as well (Orcs, Dwarfs, Elves, “Southern” Humans)
Fireforge GamesCreator
about 18 hours ago
on the alpha we will show next week, you will be able to see the new factions and their units listed. Updates to the rules and to the factions (for example new units) will be released on our website as free pdf to download
I am still on a fence about this. On one hand, I want to cave in and spend a 100... on their old historical boxes only, or mostly - possibly getting a single box of living peasants. On the other - while 20% discount is good, shipping may outweigh it and waiting a long time for these peasants to be ready...
New boxes are not shiny enough neither cheap enough to fill the rank-and-file for KoW and for skirmishes I really don't need more than a box or two of generic MaAs, even with command group. :( Although these dworfs... they look interesting but chances of them happening right now are so slim. Even more sad face. :(
Funding has dipped negative for the day. Hopefully they come out swinging tommorow.
I think it is a mistake to show things like the dwarves and orcs that are 100k+ euro away. The ol' "Here is something you may want, but to get it you first have to help us raise money for all these things you don't want" plea never seems very convincing for new backers, and any that do back for the orcs etc just end up pulling their pledges when funding doesn't go to the Moon.
If it keeps on it's current course it won't fund the last 4 days have been sub €1,000 there's 17 days to go and €32,000 still to fund.
It was no. 19 on the Hotlist yesterday but has dropped off when I went looking for it now.
Last 48 hour rushes are largely a thing of the past and if it's not funded by then I think lot of funds that people put in hoping for stuff that unlocks later will be withdrawn this might well happen even if it does fund.
It's hit the mid campaign doldrums but without being funded and without any way to drive more pledges/funds it's not really going anywhere.
Today's update says there will be an additional reward for backers tomorrow, I think this needs Mantic levels of mid campaign correction.
Ordinarily I'd say not putting out Alpha rules yet would hurt a campaign but only 160 backers of 845 are even getting the rules so it's not really an issue here.
I was originally in at the early bird level. I was hoping that more of the stretch goals would be hit, and there would be a bunch of stuff to chose from.
It doesn't look like we're going to hit that level, and I dropped down to the 2 box pledge to try and get a couple of the peasant sets.
I think they may have been over optimistic about what stretch goals they could hit.
I'm starting to think they were over-optimistic about how little value they could offer as a Kickstarter lure. I'm also starting to think they're a little over-optimistic about the retail prices, honestly.
People shouldn't panic yet. The reason CMON has massive openings and tiny closes is because they advertise the hell out of their projects and 80%+ of their backers have backed their projects previously and receive messages/updates that include info on new releases. If you look at smaller projects or ones that lack much upfront advertising they still tend to have traditional strong endings.
Again, they sort of missed out on "what Kickstarter is for," and aren't offering the correct deals to maximize their backer support. People will whinge endlessly if you try to explain it to them, but that's just how it works, it's not a debate. They could still get through their stretch goal characters.
Psychopomp wrote: I'm starting to think they were over-optimistic about how little value they could offer as a Kickstarter lure. I'm also starting to think they're a little over-optimistic about the retail prices, honestly.
No, retail prices are fine. It's just not fit for Kickstarter, that's all.
Time where it was used for funding is gone. It's now a gigantic pre-order shop, mainly for boardgames using PVC monopose miniatures.
People talking about "adding more value" just don't see where's the problem here. People just don't want generic human/undead miniatures using hips, no matter the quality. They want cheap, mantic level stuff, while forgetting it also comes with gak material and low to non-existent modularity.
To get all the bonus stuff you have to pledge for the full starter set - which is a fairly high buy in cost - whereas if a pledge of closer to £50 got you all rewards for both factions I think it would have done better. It doesn't help that whilst nice, the sculpts on both sides are fairly generic. Landsknechts vs undead, for example, might have had me throwing money at the kickstarter.
Well that's great eh, now there's a decent chance we'll miss out on the first decent plastic zombies because people now expect to be showered with freebies to a completely unsustainable degree.
Psychopomp wrote: I'm starting to think they were over-optimistic about how little value they could offer as a Kickstarter lure. I'm also starting to think they're a little over-optimistic about the retail prices, honestly.
No, retail prices are fine. It's just not fit for Kickstarter, that's all.
Time where it was used for funding is gone. It's now a gigantic pre-order shop, mainly for boardgames using PVC monopose miniatures.
People talking about "adding more value" just don't see where's the problem here. People just don't want generic human/undead miniatures using hips, no matter the quality. They want cheap, mantic level stuff, while forgetting it also comes with gak material and low to non-existent modularity.
Too bad, it was a nice project.
I don't know where you get off slamming Mantic product line. Their new Warpath stuff has been pretty awesome so far. Furthermore the modularity is there as well generally speaking although they don't have that many options on the sprue itself the convertibility and kitbashing option is there.
And the plastic for those sprue is not PVC it's Hips.
I think they are likely economically viable, but neither side believes in/wants them enough to put more skin in the game. Fireforge is only willing to presell them at a discount similar to what most online retailers offer (meaning they won't even sell them to us at wholesale rates), and backers just aren't willing to loan Fireforge the money this early at that rate of return.
There are a lot of awesome miniatures I can buy right now for very similar (most even superior) dollar per mini ratios. A mini on a store shelf you can buy immediately will always be worth more than a mini you have to wait a year + to have delivered (and it may or may not even show up)!
So, is constantly posting, in various place, to declare one or another KS dead a new sport? There are some folks who appear *invested*, emotionally, in this failing, and I just don't get it. I backed it because I like the minis, and think the value is excellent - there are plenty of campaigns I don't back...and I don't spend time trying to undercut them, or cheering slow progress.
There are a number of people who pledged, I suspect a small amount, just so they could come into the comment section and leave incredibly negative, questionably factual comments about the drive - why? Why not just...leave it be?
Yodhrin wrote: Well that's great eh, now there's a decent chance we'll miss out on the first decent plastic zombies because people now expect to be showered with freebies to a completely unsustainable degree.
From update #7 in the KS campaign (I believe it was posted earlier in this thread)
We added a new faq to let you know better our intentions:
"I'm only interested in new factions (dwarfs, orcs, etc.) why should I participate to this kickstarter?"
If the campaign will be funded (and the new factions will not be unlocked), Fireforge will be able to release the new factions for Forgotten World (dwarfs, orcs, elves etc.) during the 2019. Otherwise in the course of 2019 our resources will be used only to release the already shown northmen and living dead.
So FireForge will make these kits regardless of the outcome of the KS so we’ll just get to buy them at retail. If the KS funds backers will get the kits at a discounted price and FireForge will use the money the successful crowdfunding saves them to produce additional kits like the dwarves and orcs in 2019. If the campaign fails we won’t see orcs, dwarves etc from FireForge until 2020 or later.
Sure, and that's the case with a lot of manufacturers. For large manufacturers, KS is often used as legitimate market research vs. genuine start-up capital (something people bray about, but is not a 'rule' of Kickstarter).
If they do 80-90% of this Kickstarter and it doesn't fund, they already know there is a decent market for the kits they've shown. You'll just get a more restrained and watered down commercial release until it establishes a market presence (if it does).
Conversely, if it only funded say 13,000...you wouldn't see this product come to retail at all. They'd realize nobody was interested.
If the current lines are produced (without KS special sauce) and sell "okay" you won't see much expansion of the other ranges either. So, the end success of the product line is still in the hands of the consumers, as it always is. I think it's safe to say if the KS doesn't succeed, etc. and sales are only middling you'd actually never see dwarves or orcs, etc.
Wirecat wrote: I am still on a fence about this. On one hand, I want to cave in and spend a 100... on their old historical boxes only, or mostly - possibly getting a single box of living peasants. On the other - while 20% discount is good, shipping may outweigh it and waiting a long time for these peasants to be ready...
New boxes are not shiny enough neither cheap enough to fill the rank-and-file for KoW and for skirmishes I really don't need more than a box or two of generic MaAs, even with command group. :( Although these dworfs... they look interesting but chances of them happening right now are so slim. Even more sad face. :(
If you want their historicals now, rather than whenever they ship from this KS, I'd point you towards Firestorm games. 10%-off MSRP and free shipping worldwide for orders over 40 quid. I'm sure there are other places that deliver to European locations in a similar way, but I'm not that familiar with them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DaveC wrote: If it keeps on it's current course it won't fund the last 4 days have been sub €1,000 there's 17 days to go and €32,000 still to fund.
...
Ordinarily I'd say not putting out Alpha rules yet would hurt a campaign but only 160 backers of 845 are even getting the rules so it's not really an issue here.
So many companies need to learn to put their egos aside and realise that most people don't give two feths about their special snowflake rules systems that are valued way beyond realistic proportions as part of their kickstarters. This is made even harder by vocal minorities that loudly ask for bespoke rules for each game or line, and inevitable star fethers who get overly invested in campaigns because a real life games dev deigned to talk to them while in the "Asking for money" phase of a project. This type of ego/artistic inflexibility has hamstrung more than a couple of otherwise extremely talented creators and potential campaigns. Commercial art needs to find the line between artistic satisfaction and producing something that the market actually wants at a price the market is willing to pay. Every time I see a sculptor or dev talk about how their game is going to be the biggest or best in the world, I just sigh sadly for them. Artistic ambition is great, delusions of grandeur and artistic narcissism are not so useful.
In this case, I think Dave is right. A potential preview of their rules might help, and I don't think releasing something at this point will hurt.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hanksingle wrote: So, is constantly posting, in various place, to declare one or another KS dead a new sport? There are some folks who appear *invested*, emotionally, in this failing, and I just don't get it. I backed it because I like the minis, and think the value is excellent - there are plenty of campaigns I don't back...and I don't spend time trying to undercut them, or cheering slow progress.
There are a number of people who pledged, I suspect a small amount, just so they could come into the comment section and leave incredibly negative, questionably factual comments about the drive - why? Why not just...leave it be?
The comment section of the KS itself? Comments sections there have always been a human sewer, unfortunately. It's the internet, and trolls gonna troll. Why? for their cheap entertainment. I doubt they're invested emotionally in it failing in any true sense - it'd just be a serial drama that they can participate in before moving to the next one. I don't think it's anything new. Just check out the comments section of pretty much any YouTube video, ever.
Here? There are a couple of people who are emotionally invested in this campaign succeeding, and have been expressing their frustration in a manner that varies between being bitter through to mildly insulting towards those of us here who aren't all in. Here on Dakka (a place often slammed elsewhere) the tone of those of us who are less impressed by this campaign is more of a "it's a shame they're not doing more", and I haven't seen anyone here hoping that the campaign fails (though do feel to point it out if I'm incorrect there.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: God damn Jesus J Christ. Just checked the comments after the new update. If you want to talk about "entitled", you should look at some of the pro-kickstarter guys there. Talk about needlessly angry at people for not backing the campaign due to a lack of compelling value. The levels of butthurt there are just crazy.
I'm barely even following this thread, let alone KS comments. Pledged for 4 boxes and I'll leave it at that regardless of what opinions the internet spews about the campaign.
So we are living in bizarro world then, where the "entitled" people aren't the ones stroppily trotting around badmouthing the campaign because they're not getting showered with enough free stuff and spouting Art of the Deal-level "business acumen" to justify their "I WANNA MORE STUFFZ!" attitude, but the ones pointing out their gakky behaviour.
For someone so fast to critizise people when they put the blame on the "customers" and not the company, or when people generalize fanbases/groups of people, you are very fast to do it, Yodhrin.
And I have mostly the same opinion as you. Just not as combative. People is on his right to not put their money on the kickstarter for whatever reason they may have.. Maybe I think their reasons are wrong, but at the end of the day you cant blame them for not putting their money on something, as much as you want it to success. Thats how the market works.
I dont blame people for not watching Warcraft. I can blame critics for being too harsh with it, based in flawed reasoning.
Galas wrote: For someone so fast to critizise people when they put the blame on the "customers" and not the company, or when people generalize fanbases/groups of people, you are very fast to do it, Yodhrin.
And I have mostly the same opinion as you. Just not as combative. People is on his right to not put their money on the kickstarter for whatever reason they may have.. Maybe I think their reasons are wrong, but at the end of the day you cant blame them for not putting their money on something, as much as you want it to success. Thats how the market works.
I dont blame people for not watching Warcraft. I can blame critics for being too harsh with it, based in flawed reasoning.
I have zero issue with people choosing not to back for whatever reason. I have a big issue with people choosing not to back and then strutting around acting like they're not backing because the campaign is objectively poor rather than because it doesn't meet their own CMoN-warped sense of value for a KS, posting big long "I R VER SMAHRT BIZNIZMENZ" comments on the KS to try and make them demanding ever more free stuff seem more legit, or folk who then go around insisting that the really entitled ones are actually somehow the people rebutting the first two.
How about this, then: I don't think 9 Euros savings on the retail price of the starter box after I factor in RoW shipping is worth not having this segment of my hobby budget to spend today instead of tying it up for months in this project. I could buy terrain and Fallout stuff today, instead, and then use my hobby budget at retail release instead, and I wouldn't sweat missing out on 9 Euros savings.
No super smart business acumen, I just don't think this is enough value to tie up money today when all it will get me is a product I'm not in a rush to have a little faster.
However, by guaranteeing the foot characters at no extra cost at base funding, NOW I feel like its justified to stay in. This might change later, as I feel more pressure from other things available now tempting me from today's budget dollars. The Kickstarter isn't running in a vacuum, and I'm judging the value against competing product available today as well as money for product.
Yodhrin wrote: So we are living in bizarro world then, where the "entitled" people aren't the ones stroppily trotting around badmouthing the campaign because they're not getting showered with enough free stuff and spouting Art of the Deal-level "business acumen" to justify their "I WANNA MORE STUFFZ!" attitude, but the ones pointing out their gakky behaviour.
Get a grip eh.
Go back and read your own posts. You are being really crappy towards anyone who doesn't see the value in this deal for generic "not historical" minis. You feel entitled to demand other people support products they don't want at prices that are unattractive so you can have your shinies. Get a grip.
I'm with Yodhrin, here: I'm not sure 'wants a thing and is willing to pay what is asked for it' registers, to me, as 'entitled' - certainly not equivalently to someone who is genuinely arguing they *dont* want to buy the thing at the asking price, because they expect more free stuff.
The interests of the people upset at the negative commentary are easy to understand - they want the product to be funded, so they can have the product/so the product can exist. It's a pretty linear set of motivations. The interests of the people who are pledging just to come in a trash the campaign, though, are somewhat more nebulous - and I cannot even imagine what's going through the head of someone who sees the, let's call them two camps, and goes 'these motivations and interests are the same, this is entitlement writ-large'.
But we know the product will exist anyway. Fireforge already told us that. They just want us to preorder now for more than we would likely spend at retail just to help them speed things up.
But Fireforge revealed that if the campaign doesn't fund, they'll self-fund the project - it'll just take them longer to release. They don't NEED our funding, they just WANT it to make things more convenient. In such a case, I feel justified to want a little sweetener in the pot to help make their plans (that WILL happen) easier, because I'm in no rush for more fantasy humans and undead, and there's plenty of stuff I could spend my current hobby budget on right now.
Mantic always blew through my [instant gratification] vs [they need this money to fund a project that wont happen] + [several months wait] by also offering [your patience and investment will be rewarded with an entire cardboard crate of multi-part plastic sprues!].
Again, the guarantee of 'free' characters at funding is enough to keep me in for now. But man, there's so many awesome options for my gaming budget right now...
Gonna be honest. I dropped my pledge. Mostly because the discount just isn't there to pay for something so far in advance and we're not going to see the other things like dwarves or the other human faction. I like the models but not enough to preorder 6+ months out for minimum discount.
Huh. I thought something happened since the last update because some here talked about some "flame war" in the comments section, but there's actually nothing. I guess you're talking about the Tom guy's interventions, and some answers to it. If that's what makes you call it "an outrage", we definitely have different values here. It's not even in reaction to the update, get a grip.
Basically, we have resin shields in option. Heh, why not. Always nice to have various shield designs.
Hulksmash wrote: Gonna be honest. I dropped my pledge. Mostly because the discount just isn't there to pay for something so far in advance and we're not going to see the other things like dwarves or the other human faction. I like the models but not enough to preorder 6+ months out for minimum discount.
That's good, just wait for retail. Besides, pre-ordering is evil.
Sarouan wrote: Huh. I thought something happened since the last update because some here talked about some "flame war" in the comments section, but there's actually nothing. I guess you're talking about the Tom guy's interventions, and some answers to it. If that's what makes you call it "an outrage", we definitely have different values here. It's not even in reaction to the update, get a grip.
Basically, we have resin shields in option. Heh, why not. Always nice to have various shield designs.
Hulksmash wrote: Gonna be honest. I dropped my pledge. Mostly because the discount just isn't there to pay for something so far in advance and we're not going to see the other things like dwarves or the other human faction. I like the models but not enough to preorder 6+ months out for minimum discount.
That's good, just wait for retail. Besides, pre-ordering is evil.
Absolutely, once they are out I'm likely to spend a fair bit.
Psychopomp wrote: How about this, then: I don't think 9 Euros savings on the retail price of the starter box after I factor in RoW shipping is worth not having this segment of my hobby budget to spend today instead of tying it up for months in this project. I could buy terrain and Fallout stuff today, instead, and then use my hobby budget at retail release instead, and I wouldn't sweat missing out on 9 Euros savings.
No super smart business acumen, I just don't think this is enough value to tie up money today when all it will get me is a product I'm not in a rush to have a little faster.
However, by guaranteeing the foot characters at no extra cost at base funding, NOW I feel like its justified to stay in. This might change later, as I feel more pressure from other things available now tempting me from today's budget dollars. The Kickstarter isn't running in a vacuum, and I'm judging the value against competing product available today as well as money for product.
Yodhrin wrote: So we are living in bizarro world then, where the "entitled" people aren't the ones stroppily trotting around badmouthing the campaign because they're not getting showered with enough free stuff and spouting Art of the Deal-level "business acumen" to justify their "I WANNA MORE STUFFZ!" attitude, but the ones pointing out their gakky behaviour.
Get a grip eh.
Go back and read your own posts. You are being really crappy towards anyone who doesn't see the value in this deal for generic "not historical" minis. You feel entitled to demand other people support products they don't want at prices that are unattractive so you can have your shinies. Get a grip.
Yodhrin, you're doing it again. You're acting rather petulantly here and throwing up straw men and insults. The problem here is that behaviours like yours is just as likely to turn people who aren't impressed enough to be backers but don't wish any ill will towards the campaign itself into people who actively want it to fail out of spite for your (and people like your) behaviour (because feth you). It's called polarisation. Take a deep breath and stop being so aggressively gakky towards people who don't share your views or opinions on the value in this campaign. I know (from your post history) that it'll be hard, and especially on the internet and a forum where there are really no consequences to acting like you are unless you really cross the line and get a short holiday (which can in turn fuel your rage by making you also angry at the "unfair/bised" nature of the mods for baning you) but seriously mate, try to reign in those overly emotional and angry responses to everything that you don't like all the time.
Hanksingle wrote: I'm with Yodhrin, here: I'm not sure 'wants a thing and is willing to pay what is asked for it' registers, to me, as 'entitled' - certainly not equivalently to someone who is genuinely arguing they *dont* want to buy the thing at the asking price, because they expect more free stuff.
The interests of the people upset at the negative commentary are easy to understand - they want the product to be funded, so they can have the product/so the product can exist. It's a pretty linear set of motivations. The interests of the people who are pledging just to come in a trash the campaign, though, are somewhat more nebulous - and I cannot even imagine what's going through the head of someone who sees the, let's call them two camps, and goes 'these motivations and interests are the same, this is entitlement writ-large'.
People who see a product that they like and want to support with their dollars is not at all entitled. That's fine. Cool.
When those same people also feel a need to attack others for pointing out why the same product is a poor value prospect for them, or why they're unhappy with the value, etc is certainly as entitled as someone asking for CMON-levels of freebies and stretch goals.
I don't see how someone like my posts, pointing out that if you want my money a year in advance, you need to do it for significantly better than I can get it for at retail, or Psychopomp's post above are at all "entitled".
Yes, there are dickheads with unrealistic expectation on the KS page, but just because people are acting gakky there isn't a valid reason for the behaviour and attacks and childish behaviour we're seeing here, in what (should be) a separate but related conversation. Poor behaviour doesn't excuse resultant poor behaviour. Or to put it in much clearer terms, if you act like a dill weed in response to someone else being a dill weed, you're still being a dill weed. So don't be a dill weed. It's a choice.
As far as the updates go:
These are all unlocked, yes?
Those are pretty nice renders. Looks like quite a nice little set of heroes there. I'm not sure how much they'll influence people on the fence for a KS that's nominally about plastic kits, but it's a step in the right direction and I hope it makes a difference for them. The shields are meh, at least in terms of how much influence I think they'll have. (as models, they're ..perfectly fine.)
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Sarouan wrote: Huh. I thought something happened since the last update because some here talked about some "flame war" in the comments section, but there's actually nothing. I guess you're talking about the Tom guy's interventions, and some answers to it. If that's what makes you call it "an outrage", we definitely have different values here. It's not even in reaction to the update, get a grip.
Can you guys stop using that term for a snide little insult with a hint of superiority complex?
There are a whole bunch of people acting like.. let me see if I can get the terminology right... "whiny entitled little entitled crybabies because entitled others don't share their own completely-not-entitled opinions on the 'amazing' value of the kickstarter, and feel the need to attack them, set up strawman arguments that mostly hinge around the example of CMoN's campaigns and their 'crappy' monopose PVC miniatures."
Of course, because internet, self-reinforcement, echo chambers and so on, that bs is bleeding into this discussion, which was otherwise pretty civil.
I believe there needs to be significantly more miniature based value
Mmmh.. I don't know... what's holding me back is not the amounth of miniatures ( I don't play large scale game ), but rather the quality of the sculpts, their finished renders look like wip to me.
Their armor sculpting are fine, but the flesh of the zombies, the clothe looks totally amateur-ish.. Humans faces are also lacking character, and legs are too thick.
It's hard to say if CMON style extras are what drives things, although I can definitely see it being the case for some.
I say this because here's an example of a game Kickstarter that has absolutely no stretch goals. In both cases, there are enough add-ons that fuel growth.
I am really on the fence, still. I want this project to fund, and I really like the minis. But Fireforge just hasn't hit that "Wow, I'd be crazy not to go for a deal like that! Months of waiting be damned, I'm in!" level it takes to get me over my inherent disdain for pre-orders.
Because that's what it feels like Fireforge is running here - a pre-order campaign on their own webstore.
Only the heroes on foot. That doesn't include the second human faction.
Yes, there are dickheads with unrealistic expectation on the KS page, but just because people are acting gakky there isn't a valid reason for the behaviour and attacks and childish behaviour we're seeing here, in what (should be) a separate but related conversation. Poor behaviour doesn't excuse resultant poor behaviour. Or to put it in much clearer terms, if you act like a dill weed in response to someone else being a dill weed, you're still being a dill weed. So don't be a dill weed. It's a choice.
So far, the hyperboles I read the most are the ones you write here, not in the comment section. Or maybe on the Kickstarter under another name, who knows. You're overeacting to a storm in a glass of water, as far as I see it. Most of the reactions are actually fine. Maybe you don't like the fact your point of view isn't shared that much on the comment section itself, but there is no need to act outraged like you do here.
Psychopomp wrote: After several days of stagnation, the pledge total is moving again. Did Fireforge get some advertising out somewhere?
12 new backers and up €3,060 that's €255 a head. Only 1 more EB went today (there was 588 available a few days ago it's now 595 so some EBs have been lost) no change in the Starter level backers it's been at or around 150 for a few days I don't recall the numbers for General but it's currently 23 so doubtful they all went there may be a larger retail pledge?. If new backers are in at lower levels it's more likely existing backers added to the total to get it over the €100k mark.
After a reminder that Crooked Dice is doing their 7TV Post-Apocalypse kickstarter soon, I got off the fence and cancelled my pledge. It's a shame - I've been excited by the previews for these minis all summer, but in the end Fireforge just wasn't offering enough bang for the buck to hold me in given the other options out there and coming up.
We'll see if I'm still excited about the minis at retail. I may just skip the Northmen altogether and cut my Undead down to a box or two of knights and that wight on foot.
Psychopomp wrote: After a reminder that Crooked Dice is doing their 7TV Post-Apocalypse kickstarter soon, I got off the fence and cancelled my pledge. It's a shame - I've been excited by the previews for these minis all summer, but in the end Fireforge just wasn't offering for me enough bang for the buck to hold me in given the other options out there and coming up..
Fixed your explanation to make it closer to the truth.
By the way, since you canceled your pledge, your posts don't show anymore by default in the comments section. Looks like it's a new feature of Kickstarter.
Sarouan wrote: Fixed your explanation to make it closer to the truth.
Except that it was already covered by the qualifier "to hold me in", yeah, sure.
I think I've been quite clear all along that these were concerns that *I* had about *my* situation regarding *my* money. I was trying to give Fireforge feedback about why they were close to losing *me*, and eventually did. I also tried to be clear that it was the international shipping and the knowledge that Fireforge is going to put this stuff out regardless of the Kickstarter that was impacting *my* financial incentives.
I think maybe people wanted to fit me into a narrative of people putting on a show to get more stuff out of Fireforge, but I was legitimately swaying on a project that I wanted to get the stuff with, but the discounts just weren't enough after shipping to lure *my* gaming dollars away from other things. I was trying to warn Fireforge about that, as others might be in the same situation (I know one friend who didn't pledge at all based on the same math) and give them some feedback on what was happening with *me*.
And they lost me. Obviously not others. There seem to be plenty of US backers happy with a small pre-order discount. I'm sure European backers have it much easier, given the lower shipping. But I have other hobby concerns, and I already have human and undead mass battle armies. These were add-ons. In *my* situation, it just makes more sense to wait 6 months to a year and a half, and use a US retailer to pick up 2-4 undead knight boxes and that infantry wight at 10% off and much lower shipping. That'll come out to less than I would have invested in this Kickstarter if Fireforge had made an offer I couldn't refuse, but they didn't. They made an offer I can and did refuse, and that's just how budgeting and personal finances work out, sometimes.
I also don't think Mantic and CMON are particularly breaking Kickstarter's purpose or spoiling customers, either. I think they're just good at realizing that project funding money is going to be slightly more valuable than future retail money if its actually used, and are good at offering lots of product at slightly above cost + shipping/handling to lure it in. I respect that, and I often go farther in on their projects than I would have, because I think they offer a *great* return (of discount product) on my (Kickstarter project) investment. They make me feel that the offer is worth paying today for minis a year from now, and Fireforge failed to convince me that their offer was worth paying today for minis half a year from now. And that's just me, it's based on my own cureent personal finances, budgeting methods, and expectations. And it's why Fireforge is out the $175 in pledge and shipping + ~$200 I was willing to add in the pledge manager...if *I* thought the deal was good enough. Oh well. Bring on the 7TV Kickstarter, and we'll see what the deals on a more unique offering are like!
Latest update adds value - an extra free box and sprue of your choice for those pledging over €100 and a free sprue of your choice for those under €100.
We exceeded 100k! To thank our supporters we decided to replace the 2 frames of your choice (90k and 110K) with a free box of your choice and an additional free frame of your choice for all those who have made a pledge more than 100 euros. For those who have made a pledge less than 100 euros 1 frame of your choice.
We have also added to the Add-on 3 types of castle and the Renedra Gatehouse. Add-on castles to save more money (instead of single parts).
So EBs now get 9 boxes plus characters that's €13.33 (£11.75, $15.37) per box without factoring in the characters and extra sprue (which is 1/3 of a box)
Starter is 10 boxes (but no choice other than 1 box) at €14 per box
General is 17 boxes at €14.05 per box
Take a €96 Veteran pledge and add €4 for 7 boxes at €14.28
(all of the above don't take into account the characters, rules books, game parts etc. and bonus sprue)
Better. They could still win me back if they do this a few more times. I'm very frustrated, because I want to be a part of this, but it's also got to be worth my while. Maybe an Early Bird instead of the Starter Box. I honestly don't care about the game, it's the minis that interest me, and the freedom of choice could help.
Psychopomp wrote: Better. They could still win me back if they do this a few more times. I'm very frustrated, because I want to be a part of this, but it's also got to be worth my while. Maybe an Early Bird instead of the Starter Box. I honestly don't care about the game, it's the minis that interest me, and the freedom of choice could help.
Oh you, you toxic commenter you I find it funny that people cannot make the connection between backers raising the value for money issue, Fireforge responding by adding more value and said people gaining from it as well. If no one raised the issue in comments there would be no extras for anyone.
But yeah EB is the way to go for just the minis and that's where I'll be staying. With an RRP of €20 you'd be hard pushed to get them at less than €16 with free shipping so the value is there now IMO.
I mean, do I want ALL the things? Of course I do! But I can't have all the things. I have to, sadly, adult. I want to help Fireforge get these out quicker, and I want the minis. But I also want to help Crooked Dice and I want their minis. I also want ALL the Fallout minis, RIGHT NOW.
What people don't get is if Fireforge cross some threshold where I, personally, am wowed by the deal on offer, I'm prepared to drop my entire monthly gaming budget on this. But jeeze, they gotta compete for that by wowing me with a deal.
Does that make me entitled? Yes. That word means a thing! I am, legitimately, fundamentally entitled to decide where my money goes and entitled to decide what deal constitutes "good enough" for me. That's what we do with every purchase, from which cheese to buy at the grocery to which miniatures Kickstarter to support. It's not a negative or assumed sense of entitlement, its our actual entitlement as discerning investors!
Yeah, not directed at anyone in particular, but something good for everyone to keep in mind: So often I see people on the internet hear something they don't like about a larger situation they also don't like, and to the person saying it they go, "Well that's just YOUR OPINION, that's just you! It doesn't matter what YOU think, you're just ONE PERSON!" And then to handle the larger situation that they also don't like they go, "All the world is broken! Everyone but me and the two other people that agree with me are STUPID! You're all dumb/entitled/simple/spoiled/clueless, and oh, did I mention ENTITLED?????"
I'm just going to be honest, people who do that look like childish fools, mentally incapable of judging facts and dealing with reality. Because in reality that other person has an objective opinion based on their reasonable interpretation of the facts. So no, it's not just one person's meaningless opinion when they're accounting for how the world actually works, and you are not. It's just you being a petulant whiner to someone who is trying to be rational. And all you do is turn everyone off to you, your thoughts, and whatever it is you're arguing, because you're irrational and insulting.
Fireforge is adding value to their KS, that's good because they needed to. They needed to because they are in a competitive marketplace selling to collectors who already have more wants than they can afford to buy, on top of this project, so there has to be a reason to spend on Forgotten World over ALL those other games and models. The marketplace does determine an objective level of value, and Kickstarter does demand additional value due to the drawbacks involved. And that's that.
Here, have a good pat in the back for your good deeds.
What I find the most funny is that some people really think it's just one guy moaning that gets the company's reaction. It's not. All that drama in the comments section is completely unnecessary, as well as the comments here. But if you'd like to think/feel you have a major role in all this, suit yourself.
What is sad though is that Psychopomp/Narzoth will be seen if he comes back, and that people will clearly notice and make fun of it because of the way Kickstarter made that new feature about comments made by backers leaving the project.
No one has made any such claim that I've seen. Certainly not me, if that's who you've referred to.
I'm just one potential backer who gave feedback. And when I left, I explained why. Fireforge can keep adding value and maybe bring me back in but it'll be their decision to do so. I don't dictate their actions any more than they can dictate what I do with my money.
But there's still a chance in the next two weeks they'll keep adding some value and hit a threshold where I'll come back in. But there's a chance they won't. There's a lot of competition in this market right now, and they don't just have to offer me a better deal, they've got to offer me something I think beats other deals on offer.
Psychopomp wrote:Better. They could still win me back if they do this a few more times. I'm very frustrated, because I want to be a part of this, but it's also got to be worth my while. Maybe an Early Bird instead of the Starter Box. I honestly don't care about the game, it's the minis that interest me, and the freedom of choice could help.
'If they do this a few more times' Unreal behaviour.
Psychopomp wrote:No one has made any such claim that I've seen. Certainly not me, if that's who you've referred to.
I'm just one potential backer who gave feedback. And when I left, I explained why. Fireforge can keep adding value and maybe bring me back in but it'll be their decision to do so. I don't dictate their actions any more than they can dictate what I do with my money.
But there's still a chance in the next two weeks they'll keep adding some value and hit a threshold where I'll come back in. But there's a chance they won't. There's a lot of competition in this market right now, and they don't just have to offer me a better deal, they've got to offer me something I think beats other deals on offer.
You're not the same as a potential new backer. You joined it based on what was offered from the get go, have added plenty of 'contribution' in Fireforge's KS comment section, made a declaration of withdrawing and now are making a big deal about the level of value not being sufficient yet for you to come back in.
If you want to back Fireforge's Kickstarter please do so. If you don't want to back it then that's fine too. But please don't join and add any negativity into their comments section, Cheers. Oh and not derailing the discussion going forward here would also be cool.
I still don't understand where these accusations of negativity come from. I want this Kickstarter to do better. I want to see more value for all backers, to bring in more backers, and for some reason, I keep having to explain why it's going to take more rewards to get people like me off the fence, that Kickstarter isn't a fancy pre-order or Patreon system, it's an investor-investee connection tool.
I dunno. I guess any criticism, constructive or otherwise, must be negative. Were the comments all supposed to be, "Three days of stalling are great, and the doubts I'm starting to have that we'll see adequate value to keep me in are just a sign of happiness and optimism to come!"? If any backers - potential or otherwise - have any dobuts or concerns, should they just shut their mouths and walk away? Because that'll really help blow through the stretch goals, there.
I mean, Fireforge obviously independently took a look at the numbers and came to a similar conclusion. Other companies offer better deals than this, so it can't be impossible. I dunno. The "agree or shut up" attitude has burned me out. I'm done. Have fun accepting whatever you get. I'll just wait til retail, if I buy then.
I hope Fireforge would prefer for us to tell them how to get our money rather than for us all to walk away and never give them money at all. Customers who haggle are customers who are engaged.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I hope Fireforge would prefer for us to tell them how to get our money rather than for us all to walk away and never give them money at all. Customers who haggle are customers who are engaged.
Yes and it's a great thing to see such positivity on the KS comment section over the past 24 hours with feedback being engaged in by Fireforge while not being lost in a series of long egocentric voluminous posts...it's great
I still don't understand where these accusations of negativity come from. I want this Kickstarter to do better. I want to see more value for all backers, to bring in more backers, and for some reason, I keep having to explain why it's going to take more rewards to get people like me off the fence, that Kickstarter isn't a fancy pre-order or Patreon system, it's an investor-investee connection tool.
I dunno. I guess any criticism, constructive or otherwise, must be negative. Were the comments all supposed to be, "Three days of stalling are great, and the doubts I'm starting to have that we'll see adequate value to keep me in are just a sign of happiness and optimism to come!"? If any backers - potential or otherwise - have any dobuts or concerns, should they just shut their mouths and walk away? Because that'll really help blow through the stretch goals, there.
I mean, Fireforge obviously independently took a look at the numbers and came to a similar conclusion. Other companies offer better deals than this, so it can't be impossible. I dunno. The "agree or shut up" attitude has burned me out. I'm done. Have fun accepting whatever you get. I'll just wait til retail, if I buy then.
How are you drawing a distinction between an investor-invested relationship and a patron style preorder? They’re the same thing. Companies/creators use KS to gauge demand for the product they want to create. It’s the same thing companies that don’t use KS do. Before GW produces a new kit they calculate if the expected sales will justify the outlay of capital to create the kit. With KS creators are setting goals to ensure that guarantee enough sales to ensure successful product launch. Whether I back a KS run by Mierce or Red Box Games or Mantic or CMoN the product I am ordering via KS will also eventually be available through normal retail sales, I’m pledging support via KS to make sure the product gets made and I get the order I want, call it an investment or a preorder, it’s the same thing.
Nobody should have an issue with whether or not other people like a KS enough to back it. Support or don’t, make whatever comments you deem appropriate be it praise or criticism. The issue that seems to be the crux of the debate in this thread, as I see it, is that the value of a KS is subjective not objective. If you don’t think a KS has enough value for you that’s fine but somebody else may believe the value is there and that doesn’t mean one of the two is wrong. I don’t want/need a lot of new miniatures regardless of how awesome or cheap they might be so pledging this KS to get 3 boxes for $56 plus shipping with a few stretch goals if it funds is plenty of value for me. I’ll get some stuff I want without spending too much and I have plenty of stuff to paint while I wait for it. Other people may want two full armies at a good discount and that’s fine that’s part of the reason for different pledge levels. The world don’t move to the beat of just one drum, what might be right for you may not be right for some.
There’s a whole host of reasons why this KS may not fund or may just barely fund and and the perceived value of the higher pledge levels is certainly one of them. There’s also a fairly soft market for fantasy mass battle games in 28-32mm scale, that’s part of the reason WHFB doesn’t exist anymore and AOS uses round bases and Shadespire exists.
Nobody should have an issue with whether or not other people like a KS enough to back it. Support or don’t, make whatever comments you deem appropriate be it praise or criticism. The issue that seems to be the crux of the debate in this thread, as I see it, is that the value of a KS is subjective not objective. If you don’t think a KS has enough value for you that’s fine but somebody else may believe the value is there and that doesn’t mean one of the two is wrong.
Here, here. People should realize that someone giving their personal feeling about value for them is an acceptable thing to state, not an invitation to lose their ****. And just as importantly people need to differentiate between when people are speaking to their personal opinion about the value and the overall market reality of value, which looks like this:
Two entirely different things, and one is very objective even though it's made up of subjective and semi-subjective opinions.
When you look at a kickstarter, at least this one, the rewards are clearly spelled out.
A) This is what is offered if we fund.
B) If we exceed fuding, you gets this
C) if we really exceed funding you get this as well
So, when you make the decision to back, the rewards are clearly stated. You back it already knowing the level of value you will get and hopefully made that decision when you decided to back it.
I don't understand backing something when you know the value before hand and then making comments to try and get the project creator to change what they are offering. They told you in advance what the offer was. It is your choice to take that offer or not.
There have been projects that I was interested in but what was offered was not what I wanted... So I didn't back them. I did not back and then post multiple messages in the comments to try and force the creator to add more. I don't know that just seems odd to me.
Constructive criticism is fine, but after a certain point of repeating the same thing it does not seem constructive.
I, for one, clearly applaud FF for adding an extra box of your choice and one sprue of your choice for orders over 100. Heck, even a sprue of your choice for orders less than 100.
Although I backed at the EB pledge from the get go, I am feeling very happy with the money I am spending now to get this funded.
Sure, there is tremendous competition out there for your hobby dollar. Spend it where you want for what you need - and I need me some of those zombie warriors!!
Here, here. People should realize that someone giving their personal feeling about value for them is an acceptable thing to state, not an invitation to lose their ****. And just as importantly people need to differentiate between when people are speaking to their personal opinion about the value and the overall market reality of value, which looks like this:
.
The key here is that the people posting comments about the value of kickstarter being not good enough never stated it was their personnal feeling, but rather keep posting arguments about it being an objective statement.
That's why they got such reactions from other backers thinking it was already good value for them.
I completely agree with what Prestor Jon explained.
Hopefully people don't actually need to say 'IN MY OPINION" every time before...stating their opinion, do they?
No, they don't.
I think just about everyone here realizes that's what people are doing in just about every post they make.
And people on 'both sides' at the extremes are overreacting, but hey, it's better than the usual debate about 'What Kickstarter is for', right?
And shifting goals and adding 'value' does kind of mean that Fireforge realized that they needed to add more 'value' here if they want this to fund, and if they want it to be even more successful that just barely funding.
I am really into these guys because they are so ordinary. I think they will work great contrasted against more fantastical units such as the Sigmarines or Beastmen, much in the way Bretonia or the Empire used to.
But GW knew what it was doing when it unfortunately offed the Olde Worlde and gave us AoS.
Much that was fantastic about the Olde Worlde was that it could 'fit' in ours (late medieval/early Renaissance) - and that meant other miniatures could too.
I *love* that setting - though I like AoS to a lesser degree too.
GW remains the 800 pound gorilla, and perhaps the slow progress here is due to the fact that the minis won't 'fit' in AoS?
Going 'generic' with "plain" humans and 'regular' Undead was both a blessing and a curse!
Fireforge has to be a bit surprised and disappointed that we're some two weeks in and this campaign still hasn't funded, never mind unlocking all those extra things that people want to be unlocked.
Is it possible that there are just too many unpainted miniatures and big high-mini count games available? I feel like the Kickstarter model has hit critical mass. I really like the Fireforge figures- particularly the zombies. I backed for a couple boxes, but I just can't justifiably add a bunch to the 'pile'. I still have Relic Knights, Strange Aeons, dozens of things from recent GW releases (still haven't painted anything Necromunda), a large Sisters of Battle army, plus several hundred (maybe even a couple thousand) unpainted miniatures from other half-baked projects that I've been collecting for thirty years.
Tre's campaign, though, hasnt attracted quite as many people who want to be vocal about how it isn't worth it, or good enough, etc etc.
That's the weird bit I've been talking about: it's fine to not like something, it's just so strange that *this* KS has an absolute following of people who want to convince other people not to back it, for whatever reason. To the point of pledging so that they can go on the KS page and express that.
Which is a tremendous bummer as someone who already knows how I want to paint most of them!
I think the issue with Tre's campaigns are different.
Tre is an absolutely incredible sculptor, but I personally stopped backing his projects because for whatever reason he doesn't want to adjust to the last 20 years of scale creep so his models are smaller than anything else I buy.
That is true. And Fireforge has explicitly addressed scale creep, which is why I am interested at all in their generic fantasy plastics despite buying well over 100 of their historical plastic minis to use as generic fantasy dudes. Unfortunately, their first set looks quite a bit like the Starks CMON has for sale right now, so they have another layer of competition right there.
ecurtz wrote: I think the issue with Tre's campaigns are different.
Tre is an absolutely incredible sculptor, but I personally stopped backing his projects because for whatever reason he doesn't want to adjust to the last 20 years of scale creep so his models are smaller than anything else I buy.
It doesn’t make sense for Tre to increase the scale of his sculpts to the point where it invalidates his whole back catalog. He has made some adjustment, the minis from his most recent Njorn KS are a full head taller and broader than GWLotR minis whereas his older stuff fits in with LotR minis much better. His stuff fits in fine with the Hasslefree minis I have and the bulk of the stuff I’ve gotten from Reaper and Mierce. It doesn’t match up well with AoS or CMoN’s Zombicide but neither does Tre’s aesthetic.
I think part of the issue with FireForge’s KS is that the minis are a bit of a one trick pony. They’re good for the core of an army but the rules from FireForge are an unknown and I’m not sure how well they match up as proxies for other systems. It’s not a self contained board game/dungeon crawl and it’s not a third party alternate version of minis for an established game. Clearly FireForge wanted this KS to do great and be a springboard for their own version of WHFB but the response has been rather underwhelming.
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BobtheInquisitor wrote: That is true. And Fireforge has explicitly addressed scale creep, which is why I am interested at all in their generic fantasy plastics despite buying well over 100 of their historical plastic minis to use as generic fantasy dudes. Unfortunately, their first set looks quite a bit like the Starks CMON has for sale right now, so they have another layer of competition right there.
How did they address scale creep? The comparison shots for their new fantasy minis in this KS use GW’s Empire Greatswords a kit that predates AoS by several years. FireForge’s humans match up with GW fantasy humans from kits that are a decade old already.
At the beginning of the thread, I brought up scale as an issue I had. Fireforge posted photos and discussed the issue. Now, while I was unable to see much of the difference, Fireforge and many of the posters here stated the minis are closer to 32mm, and match current CMON plastics in height, but with thicker, more heroic limbs and heads that are closer to modern GW rather than old bobble-head GW scale. I guess I am taking them at their word.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: At the beginning of the thread, I brought up scale as an issue I had. Fireforge posted photos and discussed the issue. Now, while I was unable to see much of the difference, Fireforge and many of the posters here stated the minis are closer to 32mm, and match current CMON plastics in height, but with thicker, more heroic limbs and heads that are closer to modern GW rather than old bobble-head GW scale. I guess I am taking them at their word.
Ah, I was hoping for the old bobble-head scale, not 32mm.
28mm is what I want for my average guys. I liked that they looked closer to the Greatswords than the CMON mini in size and proportion.
Wirecat wrote: I am still on a fence about this. On one hand, I want to cave in and spend a 100... on their old historical boxes only, or mostly - possibly getting a single box of living peasants. On the other - while 20% discount is good, shipping may outweigh it and waiting a long time for these peasants to be ready...
New boxes are not shiny enough neither cheap enough to fill the rank-and-file for KoW and for skirmishes I really don't need more than a box or two of generic MaAs, even with command group. :( Although these dworfs... they look interesting but chances of them happening right now are so slim. Even more sad face. :(
If you want their historicals now, rather than whenever they ship from this KS, I'd point you towards Firestorm games. 10%-off MSRP and free shipping worldwide for orders over 40 quid. I'm sure there are other places that deliver to European locations in a similar way, but I'm not that familiar with them.
Thank You for suggestion. Unfortunately, You are right. Recent problems, uncertain shipment time and price and constant availability of Firestorm definitely put me off this Kickstarter. A shame, really. More variety - and HIPS plastic variety is good thing that I try to support as I can. :(
I believe there needs to be significantly more miniature based value
Mmmh.. I don't know... what's holding me back is not the amounth of miniatures ( I don't play large scale game ), but rather the quality of the sculpts, their finished renders look like wip to me.
Their armor sculpting are fine, but the flesh of the zombies, the clothe looks totally amateur-ish.. Humans faces are also lacking character, and legs are too thick.
The clothing looks fine to me, and the proportions are (almost) heroic scale, the most tried and tested in the entire market.
As for characterful faces, check these out from an entirely different kickstarter:
Spoiler:
Now think about how many of those fine, fine details on these figures will be visible in the final models, even given that they're in resin and are individual characters. Nope, the Fireforge stuff is perhaps not the best ever, but they're perfectly fine, especially given that they're in HIPs rather than premium resin and are all Generic mooks.
Only the heroes on foot. That doesn't include the second human faction.
Sorry, tried to copypasta the photo with the four heroes foot + mounted versions of the first human and undead heroes - didn't realise it was one large image with the second human faction etc. A bit less exciting without those mounted models, though. They're quite nice.
So far, the hyperboles I read the most are the ones you write here, not in the comment section. Or maybe on the Kickstarter under another name, who knows. You're overeacting to a storm in a glass of water, as far as I see it. Most of the reactions are actually fine. Maybe you don't like the fact your point of view isn't shared that much on the comment section itself, but there is no need to act outraged like you do here.
We'll have to agree to disagree then. There are (were when I was reading it) a few too many people acting hyperbolic over there, and some usual suspects here deciding to go on the attack/insult others when those people disagree with their own perspective. It's the difference between a calm discourse that you and I are having here, despite our disagreement on some aspects of the campaign and the need to get a bit too emotive and silly and insult others with a bit too much of the "entitled" phrase because they're frustrated that others don't have the same value opinion of the project - instead of having an adult discussion about their different perspectives
Sarouan wrote: Here, have a good pat in the back for your good deeds. What I find the most funny is that some people really think it's just one guy moaning that gets the company's reaction. It's not. All that drama in the comments section is completely unnecessary, as well as the comments here. But if you'd like to think/feel you have a major role in all this, suit yourself.
What is sad though is that Psychopomp/Narzoth will be seen if he comes back, and that people will clearly notice and make fun of it because of the way Kickstarter made that new feature about comments made by backers leaving the project.
I don't think anyone really think's that they're influence-Jesus, and certainly not Psychopomp. I never got that from his posts. The way it works - as I'm sure you know - is that enough consumers complain about a think and make their voices heard en masse, sometimes companies listen - especially if they think it will be good business. Sitting down and keeping quiet like good little boys and girls never got anyone anything or fixed anything that was out of whack. It happens in the wider world pretty regularly, and our little niche hobby is no different. Don't get me wrong - I don't think Fireforge is perpetuating any great injustice here, but if the market is not on board with a thing, it's far more useful for them to get the feedback on why consumers are not on board than to just be wondering why nobody is interested in their kits. People deciding to carry water and call others who are giving this information on why they aren't backing the campaign "entitled" does nobody involved any favours.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I hope Fireforge would prefer for us to tell them how to get our money rather than for us all to walk away and never give them money at all. Customers who haggle are customers who are engaged.
Yes and it's a great thing to see such positivity on the KS comment section over the past 24 hours with feedback being engaged in by Fireforge while not being lost in a series of long egocentric voluminous posts...it's great
Why you gotta be so negative and toxic here, man? I must have also missed the campaign suddenly funding with all of that Power of Positivity.
Nobody should have an issue with whether or not other people like a KS enough to back it. Support or don’t, make whatever comments you deem appropriate be it praise or criticism. The issue that seems to be the crux of the debate in this thread, as I see it, is that the value of a KS is subjective not objective. If you don’t think a KS has enough value for you that’s fine but somebody else may believe the value is there and that doesn’t mean one of the two is wrong. I don’t want/need a lot of new miniatures regardless of how awesome or cheap they might be so pledging this KS to get 3 boxes for $56 plus shipping with a few stretch goals if it funds is plenty of value for me. I’ll get some stuff I want without spending too much and I have plenty of stuff to paint while I wait for it. Other people may want two full armies at a good discount and that’s fine that’s part of the reason for different pledge levels. The world don’t move to the beat of just one drum, what might be right for you may not be right for some.
There’s a whole host of reasons why this KS may not fund or may just barely fund and and the perceived value of the higher pledge levels is certainly one of them. There’s also a fairly soft market for fantasy mass battle games in 28-32mm scale, that’s part of the reason WHFB doesn’t exist anymore and AOS uses round bases and Shadespire exists.
You're absolutely right here, Willis - and you illustrate very well why people feeling the need to insult or belittle others because they have a different opinion isn't needed - either here or in the comments. Similarly, feeling a need to insult Mantic or CMoN or whoever and their models and materials and backers is simply frustrated, emotive scapegoating. Thinking that the KS market has "changed" as a result of CMoN/Mantic is one thing (even if it's factually incorrect - both companies were very early adopters and always offered a lot of "value" in terms of numbers of models) - but feeling a need to belittle/blame them and their customers because this thing hasn't funded is where it becomes really unnecessary and triggers the less pleasant discourse. I notice that the tone of this thread has overall been much more pleasant since I last posted, and there's really only one person who felt a need to take a sarcastic swipe, quoted above.
However, given just how close this is to funding (even at the basic level) then it's pretty suggestive that there is indeed a market for them - and perhaps if better value was offered from the get-go it may have been enough to have funded the project early and have it sailing through stretch goals by now with that momentum. Or conversely, it might not have. There's no way to prove or disprove a supposition like that - even though I feel that it would have at least safely funded by now - but that moment/opportunity has now long passed.
Forgotten World alpha rules (part 1) now available
We uploaded the first part of the alpha version for Forgotten World rules. Remember that rules are still work in progress and the alpha version is just to show you on what we are working.
In this first part you will get the basic rules for Forgotten World - Conquerors rules that are focused on battles between regimented units.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I hope Fireforge would prefer for us to tell them how to get our money rather than for us all to walk away and never give them money at all. Customers who haggle are customers who are engaged.
Yes and it's a great thing to see such positivity on the KS comment section over the past 24 hours with feedback being engaged in by Fireforge while not being lost in a series of long egocentric voluminous posts...it's great
Why you gotta be so negative and toxic here, man? I must have also missed the campaign suddenly funding with all of that Power of Positivity.
What part of that was incorrect? A number of backers made comments indicating how things had improved in the KS comment section after said departure. There had been noticeable negativity in there beforehand coinciding with a significant lull too. Good progress has been made and it looks good to fund at this stage thankfully.
Final week and so close to funding. Everyone that has not jumped in should jump in for a box or two of SOMETHING! Plus, you can get an extra sprue of anything you want as well as some faction shields.
MDSW wrote: Final week and so close to funding. Everyone that has not jumped in should jump in for a box or two of SOMETHING! Plus, you can get an extra sprue of anything you want as well as some faction shields.
Not worth it with the retail price and having to wait a year. Easier to get 20% off and free shipping at retail
Smokestack wrote:General deal got a bit better. An extra free character was added.
The Early bird with freebies is 51% off retail... not counting the free extra sprue...
Equals 243.50E retail for 120E
lord marcus wrote:
MDSW wrote: Final week and so close to funding. Everyone that has not jumped in should jump in for a box or two of SOMETHING! Plus, you can get an extra sprue of anything you want as well as some faction shields.
Not worth it with the retail price and having to wait a year. Easier to get 20% off and free shipping at retail
Isn't the value 51% off retail as Smokestack has highlighted?
I think the extra box plus one sprue for pledges above €100 really brings out the value in this KS. That extra box can be put into the villagers which will arrive later in the year.
don't really see how it wouldn't make it, 
.
