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You know, I wonder if the marginal cost of additional sprues is higher than what often gets assumed around here of ten cents or so. On projects like this with HIPS plastic, it is always surprising to me that creators don't offer a lot more freebie sprues as a way to massively increase the value to backers while only adding a few cents to their costs.

Fireforge's current problem is that there aren't enough people willing to pay upfront a year in advance for what is basically a very small discount off retail. Yohdrin and backers like him may get enough value from the "I helped create this" warm fuzzy feelings to make it worth it, but I think there are a lot of people that say "Hey, if you want me to fund a mold that you then own and get to sell miniatures from for the next 10+ years, I want a better deal than a small discount off retail, I'm an investor not a customer." I think that is the magic of CMON campaigns. They give massive discounts in exchange for your capital, and then they go on to make money at retail off the game backers funded the production costs of.

 Gallahad wrote:
You know, I wonder if the marginal cost of additional sprues is higher than what often gets assumed around here of ten cents or so. On projects like this with HIPS plastic, it is always surprising to me that creators don't offer a lot more freebie sprues as a way to massively increase the value to backers while only adding a few cents to their costs.

Fireforge's current problem is that there aren't enough people willing to pay upfront a year in advance for what is basically a very small discount off retail. Yohdrin and backers like him may get enough value from the "I helped create this" warm fuzzy feelings to make it worth it, but I think there are a lot of people that say "Hey, if you want me to fund a mold that you then own and get to sell miniatures from for the next 10+ years, I want a better deal than a small discount off retail, I'm an investor not a customer." I think that is the magic of CMON campaigns. They give massive discounts in exchange for your capital, and then they go on to make money at retail off the game backers funded the production costs of.

Exactly my point

I really wouldn't mind more sprues as stretches. I'd take that over the resins even.

All the more to build properly, kitbash, swap with other Dakka members... that was one thing I really liked with Shieldwolf's Shieldmaiden project.

I had plenty of sprues to fool around with in addition to everything that was supposed to be included in the actual pledge.

Something I wish they'd have remembered with their Sisters as well.

Yeah I'm not really sure where this attitude that "pEopLE ArE SpOiLED!" because they don't throw money at you when you come begging for it started, but I don't think it's a very good look. You want your product line to exist, okay, that's nice, what are you offering me to help make your dream a reality? If the answer is, "Not that much because you've just been SPOILED by my competitors!" then it's time to go get another job. Using your hands.

I think Fireforge did an okay job setting up this campaign, they didn't show a strong grasp of 'what Kickstarter is for,' but the value and offering is still okay. And I think if they manage to get 1,500 people for a miniature wargame line, that's pretty good. This isn't a board game like CMON would make, it's a line of fantasy-historical models, a much smaller Kickstarter market.

 lord marcus wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 lord marcus wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
It's a real shame that folk won't even consider a KS now unless it goes through the CMoN-style pageantry of ludicrous piles of freebies and faux-stretch goals.

I want these models to exist, so I'm backing it. You know, the whole original point of crowdfunding...

the question is not whether i want them to exist. I very much do.

The question is what does my investment get me? If I can wait and get a better deal on retail, what makes it worth my investment?

Err, them existing? That's exactly what I mean - Kickstarter is not an "investment". It's not a bargain sale. Done properly, KS is a company or creator coming to the public and saying "I want to make these, if you want to buy them then I need your help to cover the setup costs.", and that's it. It's traditional to give backers a little something extra as a thank you, sure(and this KS does that with the freebie characters), but the basic core of the thing is you pay now so the models have a chance to exist later, or they don't exist at all, end of. If people all "wait and get a better deal on retail", then nobody gets a better deal on retail, because they don't get made.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I want the peasants to exist. I don't want to accidentally subsidize the Northmen, at least not for two boxes worth plus shipping. Maybe they can run a second campaign for the peasants so we don't have to play guilty-pledge chicken.

"Guilty pledge chicken" - oh please. Even if someone is the kind of person who might forget to pull a pledge intended for a stretch goal if it doesn't get hit, it sends multiple email reminders towards the end. They're launching a fantasy range, not one kit, and they've already tried to pander to the RPG/peasant fans by bumping that stretch goal further up.

How is a Kickstarter not an investment into their business that doesn't gave me any Capital interest in their business? Why should any of us backers subsidize their product costs if the return is not equal to what we put in?

Because it's not an investment, and you evidently know that since you state the reason why right there: you don't get any capital return. You don't get any stock. You get the product that otherwise wouldn't exist, but by paying for that product up-front you enable the company to make it. That is the sum-total of the core relationship in crowdfunding, and that is a return that's equal to what you put in; money becomes product, time waiting for the product to arrive is the cost of its existence.

What you want is a return that is greater than your "investment", you want the company to be grateful to you and express that gratitude with free stuff. Which this KS is still doing, but you've decided it's not enough free stuff.

And as for:

frankelee wrote:
Yeah I'm not really sure where this attitude that "pEopLE ArE SpOiLED!" because they don't throw money at you when you come begging for it started, but I don't think it's a very good look. You want your product line to exist, okay, that's nice, what are you offering me to help make your dream a reality?.

See above. Crowdfunding is about combining the creators "dream" with the customer's desire for that dream to exist for their gratification. It's not altruism, but it's not sodding venture capital either, the point is supposed to be symbiosis. But sadly, a few companies realised they could make a mint catering to people who don't particularly care about any of these projects and just have money to burn chucking it at whoever offers them the biggest pile of stuff by running glorified preorder campaigns for stuff that's already funded and ready for production under the guise of crowdfunding, and now when genuine creators come along actually trying to pay for the thing they want to create there's always some chucklemonkey who'll come along and start spouting their Wolf of Wall Street rhetoric and demanding the Earth and why don't they throw in the Moon while they're at it, the bloody beggars

Prestor Jon wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I want the peasants to exist. I don't want to accidentally subsidize the Northmen, at least not for two boxes worth plus shipping. Maybe they can run a second campaign for the peasants so we don't have to play guilty-pledge chicken.

I don’t understand your issue here. FireForge already changed the KS so the peasant rabble gets made if the project hits the funding goal of 130,000 Euros, they will just ship later in a second wave. The campaign already allows you to do a 1 Euro pledge and add the cost of an add on, the peasant rabble is a 16 Euro add on per box. Pledge at the 1 Euro level but pledge $18 and you’ll get one box of peasant rabble if the project funds. You don’t have to pay for Northmen boxes if you just want peasants and if this KS funds the peasants get made.

I thought the peasants were the next goal after funding is achieved. And I had a higher pledge level to help "do my part" to make sure they happen. But if the peasants will happen anyway with funding, then I suppose there is less pressure for me to help fund their goal. So I might as well drop down to a euro pledge and bump up in the pledge manager guilt free.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I want the peasants to exist. I don't want to accidentally subsidize the Northmen, at least not for two boxes worth plus shipping. Maybe they can run a second campaign for the peasants so we don't have to play guilty-pledge chicken.

I don’t understand your issue here. FireForge already changed the KS so the peasant rabble gets made if the project hits the funding goal of 130,000 Euros, they will just ship later in a second wave. The campaign already allows you to do a 1 Euro pledge and add the cost of an add on, the peasant rabble is a 16 Euro add on per box. Pledge at the 1 Euro level but pledge $18 and you’ll get one box of peasant rabble if the project funds. You don’t have to pay for Northmen boxes if you just want peasants and if this KS funds the peasants get made.

I thought the peasants were the next goal after funding is achieved. And I had a higher pledge level to help "do my part" to make sure they happen. But if the peasants will happen anyway with funding, then I suppose there is less pressure for me to help fund their goal. So I might as well drop down to a euro pledge and bump up in the pledge manager guilt free.

Bob, so you want the peasant rabble to fund, and will back I. The pledge manager but don’t want your money to actually be used to fund anything?

I can understand if you can pledge now for financial reasons, but from your statement before it sounds like you specifically don’t want to pledge because your money will help fund other things (subsidize) that you don’t want.

I lean more on Yodrin’s side here. I understand that everyone backs for different reasons. The only time I really backed because I believed in helping a creator and was t really interested in the game was my only real failed Kickstarter... Torn Armor...
Failed

I back plenty of smaller campaigns to help smaller players in the field. I don't really feel like Fireforge are a small player. I've bought plenty of their ever-expanding range of plastics at retail, so I mentally consider them closer to the CMON side of the Kickstarter scale.

Money is tight right now because I pledged for Heresylab, Imoact! And others. I have only the barest interest in the Northmen (enough to trade for a sprue or two when it hits retail) and none at all in their zombies. If I make a plate to support the peasants, and they don't fund, I'll be stuck with funds that have to be spent on miniatures I don't want for a price I consider unattractive. If the peasants are funding anyway, then why should I keep my uncomfortably high pledge in when it isn't needed? If I thought it was needed to get the peasants made, I'd leave it (unless their prospects looked bad at the last minute), but this new information indicates the campaign doesn't work how I thought it did.

My apologies. I misunderstood then. I had thought that you were backing in the pledge manager specifically so money would not go to fund things you didn’t want.

 Yodhrin wrote:

Because it's not an investment, and you evidently know that since you state the reason why right there: you don't get any capital return. You don't get any stock. You get the product that otherwise wouldn't exist, but by paying for that product up-front you enable the company to make it. That is the sum-total of the core relationship in crowdfunding, and that is a return that's equal to what you put in; money becomes product, time waiting for the product to arrive is the cost of its existence.

What you want is a return that is greater than your "investment", you want the company to be grateful to you and express that gratitude with free stuff. Which this KS is still doing, but you've decided it's not enough free stuff.

And as for:

frankelee wrote:
Yeah I'm not really sure where this attitude that "pEopLE ArE SpOiLED!" because they don't throw money at you when you come begging for it started, but I don't think it's a very good look. You want your product line to exist, okay, that's nice, what are you offering me to help make your dream a reality?.

See above. Crowdfunding is about combining the creators "dream" with the customer's desire for that dream to exist for their gratification. It's not altruism, but it's not sodding venture capital either, the point is supposed to be symbiosis. But sadly, a few companies realised they could make a mint catering to people who don't particularly care about any of these projects and just have money to burn chucking it at whoever offers them the biggest pile of stuff by running glorified preorder campaigns for stuff that's already funded and ready for production under the guise of crowdfunding, and now when genuine creators come along actually trying to pay for the thing they want to create there's always some chucklemonkey who'll come along and start spouting their Wolf of Wall Street rhetoric and demanding the Earth and why don't they throw in the Moon while they're at it, the bloody beggars

I understand that you are passionate about this topic, but calling people who disagree with you chucklemonkey bloody beggars won't win you any converts.

To use your language, not enough people want to enter into a symbiotic relationship with Fireforge to produce these miniatures, because the symbiosis feels lopsided, or compares unfavourably with lots of other potential symbiotic relationships available to them. There are lots of very cool miniatures that currently don't exist in my collection. I can enter into immediate symbiotic relationships with their creators, at a smaller time and money cost than what Fireforge is offering. That is why my pledge remains modest.

They've already confirmed you won't get access to the PM if you pledge just €1 you need to buy something in the KS even it that's just €16 for 1 box or €8 for a Hero. So really €8 is you cheapest buy in here.

Heroes will be available to buy even if their stretch goal isn't met - the stretch goal just gets them included free at certain pledges

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I back plenty of smaller campaigns to help smaller players in the field. I don't really feel like Fireforge are a small player. I've bought plenty of their ever-expanding range of plastics at retail, so I mentally consider them closer to the CMON side of the Kickstarter scale.

Money is tight right now because I pledged for Heresylab, Imoact! And others. I have only the barest interest in the Northmen (enough to trade for a sprue or two when it hits retail) and none at all in their zombies. If I make a plate to support the peasants, and they don't fund, I'll be stuck with funds that have to be spent on miniatures I don't want for a price I consider unattractive. If the peasants are funding anyway, then why should I keep my uncomfortably high pledge in when it isn't needed? If I thought it was needed to get the peasants made, I'd leave it (unless their prospects looked bad at the last minute), but this new information indicates the campaign doesn't work how I thought it did.

Just be aware that Fireforge stated that you can't bump your pledge up in the pledge manager. The money you put in now is the money you will have to spend if it funds. The peasants unlock when the campaign funds just like the other human and undead units.

 DaveC wrote:
They've already confirmed you won't get access to the PM if you pledge just €1 you need to buy something in the KS even it that's just €16 for 1 box or €8 for a Hero. So really €8 is you cheapest buy in here.

Heroes will be available to buy even if their stretch goal isn't met - the stretch goal just gets them included free at certain pledges

I thought they said you couldn’t change pledge levels but you could still add stuff as add ins? I can’t see the FAQ from my phone. I thought you couldn’t switched from veteran to general for example, but if your in for a $1 you could add as much as you want?

I am in for the General level but debating on dropping to early bird and going in for another early bird on my son’s account.

Gallahad you can bump your pledge and add more in the PM you just can't change pledge level or only pledge €1 - you can choose the €1 pledge to access add ons but you have to buy at least 1 add on during the campaign.

Will there be a Pledge Manager and can I add more funds in the PM?

Yes, we will do a post campaign, pledge manager to modify or add more funds to your order.

Can I change pledge level in the PM?

No, you can’t.

Can I pledge €1 now and still access the PM?
Only if you will increase your pledge during the campaign to get add-ons.

So one euro gets me nothing in the PM? This is getting convoluted. And frustrating. If they didn't want to Kickstarter, they shouldn't have kickstartered.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
So one euro gets me nothing in the PM? This is getting convoluted.

Correct - you can choose the €1 pledge level to access add ons but you must buy at least one add on during the KS to get access to the PM - cheapest option is a hero on foot €8. Or pledge €16 during the KS (€1 pledge level) and pick a box of peasants in the PM as they are unlocked as soon as the KS funds at €130,000.If it funds you get your Peasants if it doesn't there's no charge anyway so no great risk. As you have access to the PM through buying an add on you could then buy more later in PM.

Aside from that from reading the recent KS comments it sounds like they might be planning to add more value with more free sprues.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
So one euro gets me nothing in the PM? This is getting convoluted. And frustrating. If they didn't want to Kickstarter, they shouldn't have kickstartered.

You have to purchase as least 1 add on item via the 1 Euro pledge to have PM access. I don't know why they chose to make it be like that either.

I think they wanted to crowdfund these fantasy kits to make sure there was enough demand to make the launch successful and Kickstarter has become the most viable and visible crowdfunding site so that forces projects to conform to Kickstarter policies even when sometimes that creates a poor fit.

I'm in for the 3 box pledge for zombies. I really don't need a massive amount of minis but three boxes for less than $60 that gets me armoured and unarmored infantry plus a cavalry unit in a unified aesthetic gives me a core force that's plenty big for games and to which I can add the Frostgrave cultists and zombies I made from that box and the two boxes of old GW zombies plus the Zombicide games. Plus I can always add a few boxes of their historical kits for $23 each via the PM if I decide I can afford it later.

From my viewpoint it seems like the market is just catching up to the fact that 28mm or 32mm scale isn't a great scale for mass battles. Its a good scale to make nice miniatures and mass battles in that scale certainly look awesome and are fun to play they just aren't fun to find storage room for everything and invest the time required to get everything painted. I enjoy CMON's Zombicide games and the amount of stuff you from the KS campaigns is good value but it's also a difficult volume to deal with in a lot of ways. Value is good but how much value is there in hero models that rarely if ever get used or extra zombies that rarely get used all at once?

 Yodhrin wrote:

frankelee wrote:
Yeah I'm not really sure where this attitude that "pEopLE ArE SpOiLED!" because they don't throw money at you when you come begging for it started, but I don't think it's a very good look. You want your product line to exist, okay, that's nice, what are you offering me to help make your dream a reality?.

See above. Crowdfunding is about combining the creators "dream" with the customer's desire for that dream to exist for their gratification. It's not altruism, but it's not sodding venture capital either, the point is supposed to be symbiosis. But sadly, a few companies realised they could make a mint catering to people who don't particularly care about any of these projects and just have money to burn chucking it at whoever offers them the biggest pile of stuff by running glorified preorder campaigns for stuff that's already funded and ready for production under the guise of crowdfunding, and now when genuine creators come along actually trying to pay for the thing they want to create there's always some chucklemonkey who'll come along and start spouting their Wolf of Wall Street rhetoric and demanding the Earth and why don't they throw in the Moon while they're at it, the bloody beggars

Heheheh, it seems you want it a lot of different ways all at once. Unfortunately, your "symbiosis" is a little too black and white to survive first contact with reality. I think helping them make their project, as a company you appreciate, is definitely a part of crowd-funding, but it is only just a part. When you call consumers "spoiled" however you are not seeing it as a part, you are making it the end all and be all.

I feel the tug of supporting Fireforge myself, but if you were to theoretically need 100 Motivation Points within someone to get them to pledge, I'd say the desire to see their new line come out is worth about 20 Motivation Points to me. Leaving a decent amount remaining to be fulfilled through other means, such as models I really want at prices that make up for the long delay and extra shipping costs. Telling people that they're "SPOILED!!!111!!!" because they need more than just the smile on your face when your project gets funded is unrealistic and missing the reality of crowdfunding altogether.

These companies want an interest free, year plus long loan, of course the consumer is right to ask "what are you going to do for me?" Because fact is the people like you who are satisfied with the warm fuzzy feeling of paying for somebody's tooling costs are insufficient in number to fund these six and seven figure campaigns. Including this one. I'm afraid your sense of balance as to who gets a fair deal is delusionally skewed toward one side, which makes you see the middle as being a bunch of Jordan Belforts.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
So one euro gets me nothing in the PM? This is getting convoluted. And frustrating. If they didn't want to Kickstarter, they shouldn't have kickstartered.

Maybe if you don't want to kickstart, you shouldn't kickstart? Your entitlement is getting a bit grating. Realize that we were spoiled by amazing "preorder" type kickstarters where the targets, stretch goals and rewards have more to do with buyer psychology than any real economics. And now we're seeing an actual textbook campaign and complaining about how bad it is when it's really exactly what Kicstarters were supposed to be like. You don't get discounted prices later just for throwing a single euro at the campaign? Boo freakin' hoo.

frankelee wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

frankelee wrote:
Yeah I'm not really sure where this attitude that "pEopLE ArE SpOiLED!" because they don't throw money at you when you come begging for it started, but I don't think it's a very good look. You want your product line to exist, okay, that's nice, what are you offering me to help make your dream a reality?.

See above. Crowdfunding is about combining the creators "dream" with the customer's desire for that dream to exist for their gratification. It's not altruism, but it's not sodding venture capital either, the point is supposed to be symbiosis. But sadly, a few companies realised they could make a mint catering to people who don't particularly care about any of these projects and just have money to burn chucking it at whoever offers them the biggest pile of stuff by running glorified preorder campaigns for stuff that's already funded and ready for production under the guise of crowdfunding, and now when genuine creators come along actually trying to pay for the thing they want to create there's always some chucklemonkey who'll come along and start spouting their Wolf of Wall Street rhetoric and demanding the Earth and why don't they throw in the Moon while they're at it, the bloody beggars

Heheheh, it seems you want it a lot of different ways all at once. Unfortunately, your "symbiosis" is a little too black and white to survive first contact with reality. I think helping them make their project, as a company you appreciate, is definitely a part of crowd-funding, but it is only just a part. When you call consumers "spoiled" however you are not seeing it as a part, you are making it the end all and be all.

I feel the tug of supporting Fireforge myself, but if you were to theoretically need 100 Motivation Points within someone to get them to pledge, I'd say the desire to see their new line come out is worth about 20 Motivation Points to me. Leaving a decent amount remaining to be fulfilled through other means, such as models I really want at prices that make up for the long delay and extra shipping costs. Telling people that they're "SPOILED!!!111!!!" because they need more than just the smile on your face when your project gets funded is unrealistic and missing the reality of crowdfunding altogether.

These companies want an interest free, year plus long loan, of course the consumer is right to ask "what are you going to do for me?" Because fact is the people like you who are satisfied with the warm fuzzy feeling of paying for somebody's tooling costs are insufficient in number to fund these six and seven figure campaigns. Including this one. I'm afraid your sense of balance as to who gets a fair deal is delusionally skewed toward one side, which makes you see the middle as being a bunch of Jordan Belforts.

It's not a loan, it's a prepayment to help fund the cost of manufacturing the produce that will be sent you upon the successful conclusion of the process. That's what you get from funding the KS, the product that is manufactured by the KS creator. The elasticity of the price of demand for the product is always going to be determined by a host of factors that differ with each individual perspective backer. If you don't have a high interest in the product then it's going to be extremely difficult for the creator to convince you to back the project. If you have a strong desire to own the product that the creator wants to make then there should be KS pledge level that the creator can have for the project that is worth it for you to pay for the quantity of the product you wish to purchase.

I don't know we keep rehashing the same discussion every time a KS thread goes more than a few pages. This isn't complicated stuff, it's the most basic economic principles.

Prestor Jon wrote:

frankelee wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

frankelee wrote:
Yeah I'm not really sure where this attitude that "pEopLE ArE SpOiLED!" because they don't throw money at you when you come begging for it started, but I don't think it's a very good look. You want your product line to exist, okay, that's nice, what are you offering me to help make your dream a reality?.

See above. Crowdfunding is about combining the creators "dream" with the customer's desire for that dream to exist for their gratification. It's not altruism, but it's not sodding venture capital either, the point is supposed to be symbiosis. But sadly, a few companies realised they could make a mint catering to people who don't particularly care about any of these projects and just have money to burn chucking it at whoever offers them the biggest pile of stuff by running glorified preorder campaigns for stuff that's already funded and ready for production under the guise of crowdfunding, and now when genuine creators come along actually trying to pay for the thing they want to create there's always some chucklemonkey who'll come along and start spouting their Wolf of Wall Street rhetoric and demanding the Earth and why don't they throw in the Moon while they're at it, the bloody beggars

Heheheh, it seems you want it a lot of different ways all at once. Unfortunately, your "symbiosis" is a little too black and white to survive first contact with reality. I think helping them make their project, as a company you appreciate, is definitely a part of crowd-funding, but it is only just a part. When you call consumers "spoiled" however you are not seeing it as a part, you are making it the end all and be all.

I feel the tug of supporting Fireforge myself, but if you were to theoretically need 100 Motivation Points within someone to get them to pledge, I'd say the desire to see their new line come out is worth about 20 Motivation Points to me. Leaving a decent amount remaining to be fulfilled through other means, such as models I really want at prices that make up for the long delay and extra shipping costs. Telling people that they're "SPOILED!!!111!!!" because they need more than just the smile on your face when your project gets funded is unrealistic and missing the reality of crowdfunding altogether.

These companies want an interest free, year plus long loan, of course the consumer is right to ask "what are you going to do for me?" Because fact is the people like you who are satisfied with the warm fuzzy feeling of paying for somebody's tooling costs are insufficient in number to fund these six and seven figure campaigns. Including this one. I'm afraid your sense of balance as to who gets a fair deal is delusionally skewed toward one side, which makes you see the middle as being a bunch of Jordan Belforts.

It's not a loan, it's a prepayment to help fund the cost of manufacturing the produce that will be sent you upon the successful conclusion of the process. That's what you get from funding the KS, the product that is manufactured by the KS creator. The elasticity of the price of demand for the product is always going to be determined by a host of factors that differ with each individual perspective backer. If you don't have a high interest in the product then it's going to be extremely difficult for the creator to convince you to back the project. If you have a strong desire to own the product that the creator wants to make then there should be KS pledge level that the creator can have for the project that is worth it for you to pay for the quantity of the product you wish to purchase.

I don't know we keep rehashing the same discussion every time a KS thread goes more than a few pages. This isn't complicated stuff, it's the most basic economic principles.

A prepayment for something that has not been manufactured yet is a loan in advance to cover partial manufacturing costs

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, I don't know why but the amount of negativity I'm seeing here for a KS that is more like a proper KS, as Yodhrin said, is surprising.

Of course, theres a good amount of reasonable criticism, or analisis about how this isn't funding as fast as it could. But I don't see a problem with the "value" of this kickstarter. CMON has spoiled people, and thats why man kickstarters fail on deliver because they try to follow the same formula.
Fireforge is being honest here about what they can and can't. If that isn't enough to fund, it is fair. But it would be a shame for it to not be funded because people just want 400 minitaures for 100$.

It doesn't need to offer crazytown numbers of models like a CMON campaign, but it should still offer a noticeably better value than waiting for retail when all is said and done - that's part of the expected deal of laying down a hundred bucks or more many months out and the payment for the risk that backers take. Fireforge is a business, not a charity.

As for their track record, yep, they're established, but so is/was Palladium, or for a track record producing the same minis the campaign promised: so were DUST and GF9/Battlefront Miniatures. So was Baker Company. Or Trollforged. There's always a risk, and there's no end of people that will happily chime in when a project fails to remind those backers that KS is always a risk...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

I thought the peasants were the next goal after funding is achieved. And I had a higher pledge level to help "do my part" to make sure they happen. But if the peasants will happen anyway with funding, then I suppose there is less pressure for me to help fund their goal. So I might as well drop down to a euro pledge and bump up in the pledge manager guilt free.

No. They've explicitly said that you cant do that.

You would have to go for a 1 euro pledge level, but actually pledge the full amount for the models that you want. So, 16euros x however many you want. So if you want 2 boxes of rabble, you click the 1 euro pledge level but type 32euro into it. Then add the shipping later.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sarouan wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

I'm not bitter or angry about their "no PM" stance at all (if that's allowed on the internet?) Like, I do hope they fund all the best to and for them, but I ultimately won't be fussed about skipping it even if it does fund.

Sure, it's allowed. It sounds like the better option for you is to wait when they hit retail, and see at that time if you would like to buy some.
You leaving doesn't make a difference about the funding, anyway. 1$ Pledges are useless for the campaign.

I think you misunderstand. I'm only in for $1 because the value isn't looking like it'll be better than waiting for retail. If it looked like it would be significantly better than retail (it would need to offset those shipping costs for starters) then I'd probably be in for a hundred euro or so. The "price" to backers is still higher than it needs to be. I'm sure they don't sell to retailers at MSRP-20% (and that's without taking retail VAT into consideration, which non-EU people don't need to pay.) I presume that when they sell product to retailers and distributors they still make a profit from it, so a small discount from their eventual MSRP/RRP, plus a hefty shipping cost isn't doing them a huge number of favours.

I still offering extra sprues is the way to go for stretches.

Heck, make the boxes for the KS include an extra set of figures compared to retail. I'm firmly in the camp that would like a bit better deal than retail. We're helping fund its creation, throw a few more bits of plastic our way!

extra (loose) sprues would always get my vote too,

but there would be plenty who would then reduce their pledges (I only wanted 24 of X, if I get a free sprue then I only have to pledge for 12),

and plenty more who would moan if they weren't in 'easily saleable' retail packing

It looks like they may be going in that direction:


legione
about 23 hours ago

Hello Fireforge games! would it make sense to add stretch goals that increase the number of sprues given out to the backers? I'm assuming that a single sprue doesn't cost very much (in material) and it might be a big boost for the project...
Something along the lines of
- once we reach X amount all the backers over 100 euro will get 1 additional sprue of human soldiers per box
- once we reach Y amount all the backers over 100 euro will get 1 additional sprue of undead soldiers per box
and so on

Reply Fireforge GamesCreator
about 22 hours ago
we are working on this way, next week we will show more

They may want to change any other free sprues up to people who spend over 150. That way they get people to get a pledge level and at least an extra box before they toss more free stuff at them. That would alleviate some of the drop off like what was said above.

People who whine about not getting retail packaging can suck it as far as I'm concerned. When you end up getting a damned good deal, that should be the least of your concerns.

I'll forever look to my crazy OG Minecart for Shadows of Brimstone as proof of that.

Happy to see they're considering throwing more bonus sprues in. I think that's the right path. Turning again to Shieldwolf as an example, I was able to recoup almost my entire pledge by trading and selling off individual sprues, none of which had retail packaging, with very little effort. In the end I still got to keep plenty of figures, more than enough to chop up and experiment with, paint for various games, give to friends and family, plus still have a good amount of resins to paint up for fun. Shieldwolf also got to get their figures out to market where they seem to be getting decent sales. Now if they'd stuck with one type of Sister model this last time around...

I'm hoping this gets funded soon though! There's a lot of neat stuff waiting for us!

Fireforge GamesCreator

we are working on engraved shields in resin, more infos during next week

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:


I'm hoping this gets funded soon though! There's a lot of neat stuff waiting for us!

Me too!

I upped my initial pledge from 64euro to 120euro, kinda wish i had just gone for the early bird from the start but anyway i think i've worked out correctly that i can possibly get 7 boxes for my money as opposed to the early bird deal of 8 for that same amount pledged... Plus a couple of free frames thrown in so i think its all still pretty good value

But really i'm not that bothered with the freebies or what i've missed out on i just want to see it succeed!

£20k still needed with 20 days to go, lets hope so...

Has anyone else noticed on the armoured undead warriors sprue there's a distinct 3rd style of armour? Breastplate and chainmail skirt; could this be potentially another human faction in the future? Or the Elves???

 VikingChild wrote:


I upped my initial pledge from 64euro to 120euro, kinda wish i had just gone for the early bird from the start but anyway i think i've worked out correctly that i can possibly get 7 boxes for my money as opposed to the early bird deal of 8 for that same amount pledged... Plus a couple of free frames thrown in so i think its all still pretty good value

But really i'm not that bothered with the freebies or what i've missed out on i just want to see it succeed!

£20k still needed with 20 days to go, lets hope so...

Has anyone else noticed on the armoured undead warriors sprue there's a distinct 3rd style of armour? Breastplate and chainmail skirt; could this be potentially another human faction in the future? Or the Elves???

There are still 588 Early Birds left just pick that level it's not restricted - mange your pledge to change level might as well get all the benefits while it's still available.