[KS] Forgotten World - Fireforge's new fantasy range

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**lord marcus**

Azazelx wrote:
Gallahad wrote:
When comparing their fantasy figures and their historical figures, you pay five euro less for the fantasy figures, get half the number of troops, but do get a banner arm, a horn arm, bases, some two handed spear arms, and a few more pouches. They (fantasy) are also slightly larger with better proportioned heads.

Some of their kits (like the Teutonic infantry) include cloaks for all the models, hand weapon, spear, crossbow arms, a two handed axe arm set, and a banner arm....along with double the number of troops. For five more euro.

There you go. I couldn't see the MSRP for the fantasy boxes. The Teutonic infantry look to be almost about as heroically scaled as these fantasy figures as well, but that's an excellent comparison - and one that I suspect Fireforge would be wise to consider themselves.

I just shared it on the kickstarter. Hopefully they respond

**Aeneades**

Ancestral Hamster wrote:
Smokestack wrote:
Do the ASOIAF come 12 to a box or 13? I bought a Lannister Halberdier box from my LGS. It had 13 guys. 12 normal guys and then a leader guy. for 13 total. Though the tray only holds 12. Not sure if it was a kickstarter thing or if all really do come with 13.

With the Fireforge Northmen, 5 boxes nets you 60 guys. So 2.5 boxes is a unit of 30.... so $58.70 for a unit of 30...
I don't know. Simply went by what it said on the Miniature Market website. Was the box you purchased a KS box or standard retail box? Is there a difference? Still, if it is 12 trooper and a leader for 13 I don't see why CMON and any retailer would suppress that information. More bang for your buck is usually a positive selling point.

Some boxes contain 13 figures (unit of 12 plus a leader), some only contain the unit with no leader, so it's a mix.

**Moopy**

Smokestack wrote:

Do the ASOIAF come 12 to a box or 13? I bought a Lannister Halberdier box from my LGS. It had 13 guys. 12 normal guys and then a leader guy. for 13 total. Though the tray only holds 12. Not sure if it was a kickstarter thing or if all really do come with 13.

With the Fireforge Northmen, 5 boxes nets you 60 guys. So 2.5 boxes is a unit of 30.... so $58.70 for a unit of 30...

It depends. Some units that have a unit commander upgrade will be 13. Umber Berserkers for example. The tray holds 12, so you replace one of the troopers with the upgrade figure.

Otherwise it's 12- that's the total amount of wounds each unit has. Cav have 3 wounds each, and 4 to a unit so = 12.

**Azazelx**

Just posted in their updated FAQ:

=================================

Can I change pledge level in the PM?
No, you can’t.

Last updated: Thu, September 27 2018 10:06 PM AEST
Can I pledge €1 now and still access the PM?
Only if you will increase your pledge during the campaign to get add-ons.

Last updated: Thu, September 27 2018 10:06 PM AEST

=============================

This means that there's no "in for a buck" and bumping the pledge later on in their PM. Understandable really, since the project is uncertain to fund so they don't want people sitting on the fence until later.

So for me at least, it means I'm out. The fact that the value is merely okay, plus 30 euro shipping for stuff paid many months in advance (because Kickstarter) doesn't stack up well against the fact that I can get their stuff with a 10% discount and free shipping when it hits retail. Yes, it's very true that if people don't back the models won't get made, but (I'll repeat here, just in case), while I think the models are nice enough, I'm far from in love with them, and I really don't need any of them - so this makes me less invested than others who are right into GoT or the Peasant models, etc.

I'm not bitter or angry about their "no PM" stance at all (if that's allowed on the internet?) Like, I do hope they fund all the best to and for them, but I ultimately won't be fussed about skipping it even if it does fund.

**lord marcus**

Our historical boxed sets are lower in price than our new fantasy sets because are lower in quality.

If you buy our historical products (more than one box of course) you will notice that we usually recycle parts of one sprue to use it in other sets. This system has defects and good things of course but it worked well in historical market, so well that other companies followed our way.

But it does not means that this system solved us all the problems, we have still products that after 4 years from the release are far to be a profit for our company and are still sold in loss considering the production costs.

Our new fantasy range is born to be the best our company can do, without any compromise and the difference with our historical range are:

- not recycled parts: any sprue will be create by 0

- new proportions of the models remaining in the same scale

- more detail deepness, the definition of any details to be easier to paint and better to see (chainmail of our historical and the one you will see are completely different)

- better joint system between the different parts where possible

- a lot more single parts to assemble an higher number of different poses and customize these models with a lot of different options

- command options included in the box (many of our historical sets haven't)

and these are just some of the changes we did to our production, what is easy to see from outside as customer.

Of course this has an higher production costs and don't forget we would have been happy to defeat the other companies with a low price for our models, but simply we can not offer these models with this quality at a lower price.

user avatar
Anselmus
about 6 hours ago
I wholeheartedly agree to what FF wrote above. The pre-production examples are a big improvement to FF historicals, and laser moulding and hard plastic will transport that detail into the final product. That said, I'm also in for the historical add-ons.

And there are plenty of the Early Bird pledges still available, and unlimited Starter Box pledges. If bang for bucks is your main criteria for pledging, those are truly valuable pledge levels.

**Smokestack**

I'm still in but... 30 Euro shipping does seem a bit high. Especially as I will have to pay 30 euro for like the 12 initial boxes of the 16 in my general pledge... then have to pay again for the other 4 boxes that are part of wave 2... And since the warehouse is in Virginia it is not likely to cost anywhere near that to ship from VA to MD... I could drive and pick them up myself for like $5 worth of gas...

But I really do like the minis so...

I am glad that they did not cave in and up the boxes from 12- 18 or 24... While I would love extra models, it would cause me to doubt the plan they have or the things they have said and likely to pull out completely.

But as I said, I like the models so I am still in.

**lord marcus**

Smokestack wrote:
I'm still in but... 30 Euro shipping does seem a bit high. Especially as I will have to pay 30 euro for like the 12 initial boxes of the 16 in my general pledge... then have to pay again for the other 4 boxes that are part of wave 2... And since the warehouse is in Virginia it is not likely to cost anywhere near that to ship from VA to MD... I could drive and pick them up myself for like $5 worth of gas...

But I really do like the minis so...

I am glad that they did not cave in and up the boxes from 12- 18 or 24... While I would love extra models, it would cause me to doubt the plan they have or the things they have said and likely to pull out completely.

But as I said, I like the models so I am still in.

They have a warehouse in VA?

**Smokestack**

lord marcus wrote:

They have a warehouse in VA?

Yeah in the Shipping section on the campaign page.

"Shipping costs are not included in your pledge and will be charged at the end of the campaign. US and EU customers will not pay custom fees thanks to our warehouses located in Italy and Virginia. The above label shows the approximate shipping costs for campaign pledges. Weight and costs may vary depending on add-ons and/or stretch goals."

**Gallahad**

Basically what I read from Fireforge's response is that they paid a lot more for sculpting than they did for their previous efforts. There aren't more mold cavities for the fantasy v historical, their aren't more options, and they are reusing the same command sprue across each faction.

The sculpting is a big step up, and these will definitely be higher quality than their current kits, but I'm not sure they are the right price to get enough people to give you their money far in advance.

I think that them working hard and being flexible to get this to fund is a sign that a significant portion of their capital for this project has already been spent on the sculpting and prep for the campaign. This isn't a bad thing, or a sign of something nefarious, it is just evidence that they paid more for sculpting, and want to recoup as much of those costs as possible.

Their response also makes me question whether they believe that these minis are indeed taller than their historical counterparts.

**Sarouan**

Some other post explaining why the difference in prices (coming from https://www.the-ninth-age.com/index.php?thread/17222-fireforge-games-support-9th-age/&postID=1039481#post1039481)

i will be happy to answer in a more complete way like a behind the enemy lines:

historical range vs fantasy range price

it is not a case if our company has historical medieval kits better than other companies in quality. Selling good plastic in our market could be an heavy loss for a company: the market is not enough big.
Each company, use a different strategy to avoid the failure, there is who decreases the number of figures and their quality, who simply doesn't do plastic for medieval but choose more bigger markets (like classical age), who works in china, who choose to cut discounts to retailers and so on. Each product is the result of what a company think to earn and the cost to release this product.

Our company, created a new system to make plastic products: we recycle parts of one sprue to use it in other sets. This system has defects and good things of course but it worked well, so well that other companies followed our way.
But it does not means that this system solved us all the problems, we have still products that after 4 years from the release are far to be a profit for our company and are still sold in loss considering the production costs.

Our new fantasy range is born to be something different: is the best our company can do, without any compromise.
In fantasy market we believe that Games Workshop has the best and offer the best. We tried with this project to offer our best too:
- we adjusted proportion of the models remaining in the same scale
- we improved the deepness, the definition of any details to be easier to paint and better to see (chainmail of our historical and the one you will see are completely different)
- we created a better joint system between the different parts where possible
- we inserted in the frames a lot of options (the max we can) to assemble what we think are nice figures
- we didn't recycle parts from other fantasy sets, any sprue will be create by 0

and these are just some of the changes we did to our production.
If you take our boxes from the start of our company to the fantasy (walking between our resin releases from the mongols to the amazons for fantasy football to richard the lionheart as character), you could see all the try did from our company to improve the quality of our models. You will find also some experiments (like in russians and scandinavians with spears separated by the hands to decrease the production costs a bit).

The fantasy is in absolute the best and the most expensive project we ever did and the cost we will ask to be covered with the kickstarter campaign will be not the real cost of the production, but a bit lower because our company will be able to release them also just with part of the expenses paid thanks to the backers.

I know that an huge number of zombies are used in other games, but however our products are thought for our game. Otherwise, to give you an huge number of zombies in each box, we should decrease the quality of the models

These two sets, are from 2 different companies, they seems nice sets, but what they really give to you?

Just from here you can understand the difference of quality between the two products: GW is better, simply because the hands of the model are separate parts and give you the way to do more different poses like you want.

About our peasants zombies, they will have in the box the following parts:
6 different bodies (mantic give you 3 bodies, gw give you 5 bodies): our peasants and soldiers will have the body as one piece, while mantic and gw separated the torsos by the legs to obtain more poses. We decided that gw and mantic solution could be worst for us because yes give you more poses available, but in this way we can't create female zombies (or different armour styles for the soldiers) and we decided for this solution to have a better design for the figures (i think it's easy to see how is better the shape of the bodies of our peasants than mantic and gw models)

9 different heads (mantic 6, gw 8)
18 different arms (mantic 2 - they have 2 arms attached to the bodies - gw 18): while our arms are some free (3) some with weapons or accessories (like lantern, falchion, butcher knife and cleaver) some to be attached to be equipped with 2 handed objects like schythe, showel and more.

GW zombies have a command option. We thought it was bad to see peasants with command option, so we inserted in the zombie soldiers frame the command you can use for peasants (pratically buying a box of zombie soldiers you can assemble 2 command options and use the second in a group of peasants). It also means that the money for production, instead to be spent on the peasants, for aesthetics purposes are spent on the zombie soldiers (that have a lot more options than peasants). Also the aesthetics is important for us.

Azazelx wrote:

I'm not bitter or angry about their "no PM" stance at all (if that's allowed on the internet?) Like, I do hope they fund all the best to and for them, but I ultimately won't be fussed about skipping it even if it does fund.

Sure, it's allowed. It sounds like the better option for you is to wait when they hit retail, and see at that time if you would like to buy some.

You leaving doesn't make a difference about the funding, anyway. 1$ Pledges are useless for the campaign.

Gallahad wrote:

Their response also makes me question whether they believe that these minis are indeed taller than their historical counterparts.

They're talking more about the difference in details and proportions, actually. And since they posted these pictures :

...I'll say they're very aware of the size difference between their historical and FR range.

**sockwithaticket**

This pic from waaay back in thread is a better scale comparison imo.

To me it's pretty clear that these new models are a lot thicker than their historicals or others like the Perry ones featured, legs are almost twice as thick for one thing.

While the new models are relatively plain I think that's deliberate to widen potential usage and that we've all become so familiar with GWs flourishes and often excessive detail, that they look plainer still than we might expect.

That said, I think the sculpting quality difference between their historicals and the KS models is quite clear and shows demonstrable improvement.

**Theophony**

The new models are definitely better than the historical ones, but I’ve decided to wait as well. The best deal to me is the early bird, but I have no need for zombies as I have plenty of zombicide zombies. I know they are different styles, but I just don’t need the undead. Also want to see how the humans line up with zombicide.

**Prestor Jon**

Theophony wrote:
The new models are definitely better than the historical ones, but I’ve decided to wait as well. The best deal to me is the early bird, but I have no need for zombies as I have plenty of zombicide zombies. I know they are different styles, but I just don’t need the undead. Also want to see how the humans line up with zombicide.

I thought CMON's ASOIAF minis were the same size as the Zombicide minis?

**Theophony**

Prestor Jon wrote:
Theophony wrote:
The new models are definitely better than the historical ones, but I’ve decided to wait as well. The best deal to me is the early bird, but I have no need for zombies as I have plenty of zombicide zombies. I know they are different styles, but I just don’t need the undead. Also want to see how the humans line up with zombicide.

I thought CMON's ASOIAF minis were the same size as the Zombicide minis?

I couldn’t remember what size they were and didn’t see it on ASOIAF kickstart page. If they are then I think they will be fine, but for some reason I thought they were larger.

**Prestor Jon**

Theophony wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:
Theophony wrote:
The new models are definitely better than the historical ones, but I’ve decided to wait as well. The best deal to me is the early bird, but I have no need for zombies as I have plenty of zombicide zombies. I know they are different styles, but I just don’t need the undead. Also want to see how the humans line up with zombicide.

I thought CMON's ASOIAF minis were the same size as the Zombicide minis?

I couldn’t remember what size they were and didn’t see it on ASOIAF kickstart page. If they are then I think they will be fine, but for some reason I thought they were larger.

I found this comparison on BGG

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1745775/dark-sword-miniatures

**BobtheInquisitor**

What are this minis in the comparison?

This campaign is starting to remind me why I didn't go in on the ASOIAF game--the fantasy minis were just too bland to go all in. I might pick up some of the Tully Sworn Swords because they look like fantasy troops, but Fireforge has nothing quite so exciting on offer, other than the peasants. And I'm starting to think it might be a good idea to wait and see if the peasants even happen.

**Smokestack**

From Left to right. ASOIaF, Blood Rage, ASoIaF, Zombicide black plague

**Theophony**

Thanks Preston Jon. Exactly what I needed to know.

**lord marcus**

I've dropped my pledge. The value just isn't there

**Yodhrin**

It's a real shame that folk won't even consider a KS now unless it goes through the CMoN-style pageantry of ludicrous piles of freebies and faux-stretch goals.

I want these models to exist, so I'm backing it. You know, the whole original point of crowdfunding...

**lord marcus**

Yodhrin wrote:
It's a real shame that folk won't even consider a KS now unless it goes through the CMoN-style pageantry of ludicrous piles of freebies and faux-stretch goals.

I want these models to exist, so I'm backing it. You know, the whole original point of crowdfunding...

the question is not whether i want them to exist. I very much do.

The question is what does my investment get me? If I can wait and get a better deal on retail, what makes it worth my investment?

**BobtheInquisitor**

I want the peasants to exist. I don't want to accidentally subsidize the Northmen, at least not for two boxes worth plus shipping. Maybe they can run a second campaign for the peasants so we don't have to play guilty-pledge chicken.

**ScarletRose**

Those Northmen seem like an ideal base for a medieval Imperial Guard army.

I'm tempted.

**Hanksingle**

ScarletRose wrote:
Those Northmen seem like an ideal base for a medieval Imperial Guard army.

I'm tempted.

That's why I'm doing it - they're perfect for guard, for Mordheim, and for Frostgrave, all my interests for human soldier minis, specifically because they're a tremendous base model. I like that they aren't quite as beleaguered as Empire base troops, too; hardy looking fellows, simple gear. I can do the ornamenting myself. Join us!

Also, the peasants are going to be great.

I can't express how nice it has been to have them say 'no, we cant do that' where they cant, and quickly adjust to our group desires where they can - it has really improved my confidence, because they aren't selling smoke. I hope it gets done, I have such plans!

**Sarouan**

lord marcus wrote:

The question is what does my investment get me? If I can wait and get a better deal on retail, what makes it worth my investment?

Well, if the project doesn't fund, it's unlikely it'll hit retail at all. You know, the whole point of crowfunding it...

Otherwise, I don't think it's really a question of value first here. The project in itself is good, but well...I guess the market is really bloated with this kind of stuff now. Maybe Fireforge should just give up with this fantasy project. It would be a shame for variety, but hey, if the customers don't follow, there's no point in launching something that will put you at a clear loss.

**Vestibulata**

Hanksingle wrote:
ScarletRose wrote:
Those Northmen seem like an ideal base for a medieval Imperial Guard army.

I'm tempted.

That's why I'm doing it - they're perfect for guard, for Mordheim, and for Frostgrave, all my interests for human soldier minis, specifically because they're a tremendous base model. I like that they aren't quite as beleaguered as Empire base troops, too; hardy looking fellows, simple gear. I can do the ornamenting myself. Join us!

Also, the peasants are going to be great.

I can't express how nice it has been to have them say 'no, we cant do that' where they cant, and quickly adjust to our group desires where they can - it has really improved my confidence, because they aren't selling smoke. I hope it gets done, I have such plans!

I'm tempted enough too for the same reasons to back the kickstarter and post something as well. The northmen will look great to my eye as imperial guard allied with my imperial knights.

I cooled from the kickstarter craze due to stockpiling, a failed project and edge of world shipping, but this appeals also from point of view this is crowdfunding to allow item creation (a la dreamforge ) rather than a pre-order system; the preordering is a personal peeve. Fireforge is known entity/business in wargaming so risk is much lower.

It all boils down to how much they appeal and what their use is, for me, they've met my thresholds to cough up some dough.

**Yodhrin**

lord marcus wrote:
Yodhrin wrote:
It's a real shame that folk won't even consider a KS now unless it goes through the CMoN-style pageantry of ludicrous piles of freebies and faux-stretch goals.

I want these models to exist, so I'm backing it. You know, the whole original point of crowdfunding...

the question is not whether i want them to exist. I very much do.

The question is what does my investment get me? If I can wait and get a better deal on retail, what makes it worth my investment?

Err, them existing? That's exactly what I mean - Kickstarter is not an "investment". It's not a bargain sale. Done properly, KS is a company or creator coming to the public and saying "I want to make these, if you want to buy them then I need your help to cover the setup costs.", and that's it. It's traditional to give backers a little something extra as a thank you, sure(and this KS does that with the freebie characters), but the basic core of the thing is you pay now so the models have a chance to exist later, or they don't exist at all, end of. If people all "wait and get a better deal on retail", then nobody gets a better deal on retail, because they don't get made.

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I want the peasants to exist. I don't want to accidentally subsidize the Northmen, at least not for two boxes worth plus shipping. Maybe they can run a second campaign for the peasants so we don't have to play guilty-pledge chicken.

"Guilty pledge chicken" - oh please. Even if someone is the kind of person who might forget to pull a pledge intended for a stretch goal if it doesn't get hit, it sends multiple email reminders towards the end. They're launching a fantasy range, not one kit, and they've already tried to pander to the RPG/peasant fans by bumping that stretch goal further up.

**Prestor Jon**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I want the peasants to exist. I don't want to accidentally subsidize the Northmen, at least not for two boxes worth plus shipping. Maybe they can run a second campaign for the peasants so we don't have to play guilty-pledge chicken.

I don’t understand your issue here. FireForge already changed the KS so the peasant rabble gets made if the project hits the funding goal of 130,000 Euros, they will just ship later in a second wave. The campaign already allows you to do a 1 Euro pledge and add the cost of an add on, the peasant rabble is a 16 Euro add on per box. Pledge at the 1 Euro level but pledge $18 and you’ll get one box of peasant rabble if the project funds. You don’t have to pay for Northmen boxes if you just want peasants and if this KS funds the peasants get made.

**Galas**

Yeah, I don't know why but the amount of negativity I'm seeing here for a KS that is more like a proper KS, as Yodhrin said, is surprising.

Of course, theres a good amount of reasonable criticism, or analisis about how this isn't funding as fast as it could. But I don't see a problem with the "value" of this kickstarter. CMON has spoiled people, and thats why man kickstarters fail on deliver because they try to follow the same formula.
Fireforge is being honest here about what they can and can't. If that isn't enough to fund, it is fair. But it would be a shame for it to not be funded because people just want 400 minitaures for 100$.

**lord marcus**

Yodhrin wrote:
lord marcus wrote:
Yodhrin wrote:
It's a real shame that folk won't even consider a KS now unless it goes through the CMoN-style pageantry of ludicrous piles of freebies and faux-stretch goals.

I want these models to exist, so I'm backing it. You know, the whole original point of crowdfunding...

the question is not whether i want them to exist. I very much do.

The question is what does my investment get me? If I can wait and get a better deal on retail, what makes it worth my investment?

Err, them existing? That's exactly what I mean - Kickstarter is not an "investment". It's not a bargain sale. Done properly, KS is a company or creator coming to the public and saying "I want to make these, if you want to buy them then I need your help to cover the setup costs.", and that's it. It's traditional to give backers a little something extra as a thank you, sure(and this KS does that with the freebie characters), but the basic core of the thing is you pay now so the models have a chance to exist later, or they don't exist at all, end of. If people all "wait and get a better deal on retail", then nobody gets a better deal on retail, because they don't get made.

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I want the peasants to exist. I don't want to accidentally subsidize the Northmen, at least not for two boxes worth plus shipping. Maybe they can run a second campaign for the peasants so we don't have to play guilty-pledge chicken.

"Guilty pledge chicken" - oh please. Even if someone is the kind of person who might forget to pull a pledge intended for a stretch goal if it doesn't get hit, it sends multiple email reminders towards the end. They're launching a fantasy range, not one kit, and they've already tried to pander to the RPG/peasant fans by bumping that stretch goal further up.

How is a Kickstarter not an investment into their business that doesn't gave me any Capital interest in their business? Why should any of us backers subsidize their product costs if the return is not equal to what we put in?