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I'm barely even following this thread, let alone KS comments. Pledged for 4 boxes and I'll leave it at that regardless of what opinions the internet spews about the campaign.

So we are living in bizarro world then, where the "entitled" people aren't the ones stroppily trotting around badmouthing the campaign because they're not getting showered with enough free stuff and spouting Art of the Deal-level "business acumen" to justify their "I WANNA MORE STUFFZ!" attitude, but the ones pointing out their gakky behaviour.

Get a grip eh.

For someone so fast to critizise people when they put the blame on the "customers" and not the company, or when people generalize fanbases/groups of people, you are very fast to do it, Yodhrin.

And I have mostly the same opinion as you. Just not as combative. People is on his right to not put their money on the kickstarter for whatever reason they may have.. Maybe I think their reasons are wrong, but at the end of the day you cant blame them for not putting their money on something, as much as you want it to success. Thats how the market works.

I dont blame people for not watching Warcraft. I can blame critics for being too harsh with it, based in flawed reasoning.

 Galas wrote:
For someone so fast to critizise people when they put the blame on the "customers" and not the company, or when people generalize fanbases/groups of people, you are very fast to do it, Yodhrin.

And I have mostly the same opinion as you. Just not as combative. People is on his right to not put their money on the kickstarter for whatever reason they may have.. Maybe I think their reasons are wrong, but at the end of the day you cant blame them for not putting their money on something, as much as you want it to success. Thats how the market works.

I dont blame people for not watching Warcraft. I can blame critics for being too harsh with it, based in flawed reasoning.

I have zero issue with people choosing not to back for whatever reason. I have a big issue with people choosing not to back and then strutting around acting like they're not backing because the campaign is objectively poor rather than because it doesn't meet their own CMoN-warped sense of value for a KS, posting big long "I R VER SMAHRT BIZNIZMENZ" comments on the KS to try and make them demanding ever more free stuff seem more legit, or folk who then go around insisting that the really entitled ones are actually somehow the people rebutting the first two.

How about this, then: I don't think 9 Euros savings on the retail price of the starter box after I factor in RoW shipping is worth not having this segment of my hobby budget to spend today instead of tying it up for months in this project. I could buy terrain and Fallout stuff today, instead, and then use my hobby budget at retail release instead, and I wouldn't sweat missing out on 9 Euros savings.

No super smart business acumen, I just don't think this is enough value to tie up money today when all it will get me is a product I'm not in a rush to have a little faster.

However, by guaranteeing the foot characters at no extra cost at base funding, NOW I feel like its justified to stay in. This might change later, as I feel more pressure from other things available now tempting me from today's budget dollars. The Kickstarter isn't running in a vacuum, and I'm judging the value against competing product available today as well as money for product.

 Yodhrin wrote:
So we are living in bizarro world then, where the "entitled" people aren't the ones stroppily trotting around badmouthing the campaign because they're not getting showered with enough free stuff and spouting Art of the Deal-level "business acumen" to justify their "I WANNA MORE STUFFZ!" attitude, but the ones pointing out their gakky behaviour.

Get a grip eh.

Go back and read your own posts. You are being really crappy towards anyone who doesn't see the value in this deal for generic "not historical" minis. You feel entitled to demand other people support products they don't want at prices that are unattractive so you can have your shinies. Get a grip.

I'm with Yodhrin, here: I'm not sure 'wants a thing and is willing to pay what is asked for it' registers, to me, as 'entitled' - certainly not equivalently to someone who is genuinely arguing they *dont* want to buy the thing at the asking price, because they expect more free stuff.

The interests of the people upset at the negative commentary are easy to understand - they want the product to be funded, so they can have the product/so the product can exist. It's a pretty linear set of motivations. The interests of the people who are pledging just to come in a trash the campaign, though, are somewhat more nebulous - and I cannot even imagine what's going through the head of someone who sees the, let's call them two camps, and goes 'these motivations and interests are the same, this is entitlement writ-large'.

But we know the product will exist anyway. Fireforge already told us that. They just want us to preorder now for more than we would likely spend at retail just to help them speed things up.

But Fireforge revealed that if the campaign doesn't fund, they'll self-fund the project - it'll just take them longer to release. They don't NEED our funding, they just WANT it to make things more convenient. In such a case, I feel justified to want a little sweetener in the pot to help make their plans (that WILL happen) easier, because I'm in no rush for more fantasy humans and undead, and there's plenty of stuff I could spend my current hobby budget on right now.

Mantic always blew through my [instant gratification] vs [they need this money to fund a project that wont happen] + [several months wait] by also offering [your patience and investment will be rewarded with an entire cardboard crate of multi-part plastic sprues!].

Again, the guarantee of 'free' characters at funding is enough to keep me in for now. But man, there's so many awesome options for my gaming budget right now...

Gonna be honest. I dropped my pledge. Mostly because the discount just isn't there to pay for something so far in advance and we're not going to see the other things like dwarves or the other human faction. I like the models but not enough to preorder 6+ months out for minimum discount.

Huh. I thought something happened since the last update because some here talked about some "flame war" in the comments section, but there's actually nothing. I guess you're talking about the Tom guy's interventions, and some answers to it. If that's what makes you call it "an outrage", we definitely have different values here. It's not even in reaction to the update, get a grip.

Basically, we have resin shields in option. Heh, why not. Always nice to have various shield designs.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Gonna be honest. I dropped my pledge. Mostly because the discount just isn't there to pay for something so far in advance and we're not going to see the other things like dwarves or the other human faction. I like the models but not enough to preorder 6+ months out for minimum discount.

That's good, just wait for retail. Besides, pre-ordering is evil.

 Sarouan wrote:
Huh. I thought something happened since the last update because some here talked about some "flame war" in the comments section, but there's actually nothing. I guess you're talking about the Tom guy's interventions, and some answers to it. If that's what makes you call it "an outrage", we definitely have different values here. It's not even in reaction to the update, get a grip.

Basically, we have resin shields in option. Heh, why not. Always nice to have various shield designs.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Gonna be honest. I dropped my pledge. Mostly because the discount just isn't there to pay for something so far in advance and we're not going to see the other things like dwarves or the other human faction. I like the models but not enough to preorder 6+ months out for minimum discount.

That's good, just wait for retail. Besides, pre-ordering is evil.

Absolutely, once they are out I'm likely to spend a fair bit.

 Psychopomp wrote:
How about this, then: I don't think 9 Euros savings on the retail price of the starter box after I factor in RoW shipping is worth not having this segment of my hobby budget to spend today instead of tying it up for months in this project. I could buy terrain and Fallout stuff today, instead, and then use my hobby budget at retail release instead, and I wouldn't sweat missing out on 9 Euros savings.

No super smart business acumen, I just don't think this is enough value to tie up money today when all it will get me is a product I'm not in a rush to have a little faster.

However, by guaranteeing the foot characters at no extra cost at base funding, NOW I feel like its justified to stay in. This might change later, as I feel more pressure from other things available now tempting me from today's budget dollars. The Kickstarter isn't running in a vacuum, and I'm judging the value against competing product available today as well as money for product.

Brilliantly put and illustrated here, Psychopomp.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
So we are living in bizarro world then, where the "entitled" people aren't the ones stroppily trotting around badmouthing the campaign because they're not getting showered with enough free stuff and spouting Art of the Deal-level "business acumen" to justify their "I WANNA MORE STUFFZ!" attitude, but the ones pointing out their gakky behaviour.

Get a grip eh.

Go back and read your own posts. You are being really crappy towards anyone who doesn't see the value in this deal for generic "not historical" minis. You feel entitled to demand other people support products they don't want at prices that are unattractive so you can have your shinies. Get a grip.

Yodhrin, you're doing it again. You're acting rather petulantly here and throwing up straw men and insults. The problem here is that behaviours like yours is just as likely to turn people who aren't impressed enough to be backers but don't wish any ill will towards the campaign itself into people who actively want it to fail out of spite for your (and people like your) behaviour (because feth you). It's called polarisation. Take a deep breath and stop being so aggressively gakky towards people who don't share your views or opinions on the value in this campaign. I know (from your post history) that it'll be hard, and especially on the internet and a forum where there are really no consequences to acting like you are unless you really cross the line and get a short holiday (which can in turn fuel your rage by making you also angry at the "unfair/bised" nature of the mods for baning you) but seriously mate, try to reign in those overly emotional and angry responses to everything that you don't like all the time.

Hanksingle wrote:
I'm with Yodhrin, here: I'm not sure 'wants a thing and is willing to pay what is asked for it' registers, to me, as 'entitled' - certainly not equivalently to someone who is genuinely arguing they *dont* want to buy the thing at the asking price, because they expect more free stuff.

The interests of the people upset at the negative commentary are easy to understand - they want the product to be funded, so they can have the product/so the product can exist. It's a pretty linear set of motivations. The interests of the people who are pledging just to come in a trash the campaign, though, are somewhat more nebulous - and I cannot even imagine what's going through the head of someone who sees the, let's call them two camps, and goes 'these motivations and interests are the same, this is entitlement writ-large'.

People who see a product that they like and want to support with their dollars is not at all entitled. That's fine. Cool.
When those same people also feel a need to attack others for pointing out why the same product is a poor value prospect for them, or why they're unhappy with the value, etc is certainly as entitled as someone asking for CMON-levels of freebies and stretch goals.

I don't see how someone like my posts, pointing out that if you want my money a year in advance, you need to do it for significantly better than I can get it for at retail, or Psychopomp's post above are at all "entitled".

Yes, there are dickheads with unrealistic expectation on the KS page, but just because people are acting gakky there isn't a valid reason for the behaviour and attacks and childish behaviour we're seeing here, in what (should be) a separate but related conversation. Poor behaviour doesn't excuse resultant poor behaviour. Or to put it in much clearer terms, if you act like a dill weed in response to someone else being a dill weed, you're still being a dill weed. So don't be a dill weed. It's a choice.

As far as the updates go:

These are all unlocked, yes?


Those are pretty nice renders. Looks like quite a nice little set of heroes there. I'm not sure how much they'll influence people on the fence for a KS that's nominally about plastic kits, but it's a step in the right direction and I hope it makes a difference for them. The shields are meh, at least in terms of how much influence I think they'll have. (as models, they're ..perfectly fine.)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sarouan wrote:
Huh. I thought something happened since the last update because some here talked about some "flame war" in the comments section, but there's actually nothing. I guess you're talking about the Tom guy's interventions, and some answers to it. If that's what makes you call it "an outrage", we definitely have different values here. It's not even in reaction to the update, get a grip.

Can you guys stop using that term for a snide little insult with a hint of superiority complex?

There are a whole bunch of people acting like.. let me see if I can get the terminology right... "whiny entitled little entitled crybabies because entitled others don't share their own completely-not-entitled opinions on the 'amazing' value of the kickstarter, and feel the need to attack them, set up strawman arguments that mostly hinge around the example of CMoN's campaigns and their 'crappy' monopose PVC miniatures."



Of course, because internet, self-reinforcement, echo chambers and so on, that bs is bleeding into this discussion, which was otherwise pretty civil.

To put it as simply as possible.

I believe there needs to be significantly more miniature based value

I believe there needs to be significantly more miniature based value

Mmmh.. I don't know... what's holding me back is not the amounth of miniatures ( I don't play large scale game ), but rather the quality of the sculpts, their finished renders look like wip to me.
Their armor sculpting are fine, but the flesh of the zombies, the clothe looks totally amateur-ish.. Humans faces are also lacking character, and legs are too thick.

Might still pledge, but really not sure.

It's hard to say if CMON style extras are what drives things, although I can definitely see it being the case for some.

I say this because here's an example of a game Kickstarter that has absolutely no stretch goals. In both cases, there are enough add-ons that fuel growth.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/petersengames/sandy-petersens-cthulhu-mythos-for-5e?ref=discovery&term=cthulhu

I am really on the fence, still. I want this project to fund, and I really like the minis. But Fireforge just hasn't hit that "Wow, I'd be crazy not to go for a deal like that! Months of waiting be damned, I'm in!" level it takes to get me over my inherent disdain for pre-orders.

Because that's what it feels like Fireforge is running here - a pre-order campaign on their own webstore.

 Azazelx wrote:


As far as the updates go:

These are all unlocked, yes?

Spoiler:

Only the heroes on foot. That doesn't include the second human faction.

Yes, there are dickheads with unrealistic expectation on the KS page, but just because people are acting gakky there isn't a valid reason for the behaviour and attacks and childish behaviour we're seeing here, in what (should be) a separate but related conversation. Poor behaviour doesn't excuse resultant poor behaviour. Or to put it in much clearer terms, if you act like a dill weed in response to someone else being a dill weed, you're still being a dill weed. So don't be a dill weed. It's a choice.

So far, the hyperboles I read the most are the ones you write here, not in the comment section. Or maybe on the Kickstarter under another name, who knows. You're overeacting to a storm in a glass of water, as far as I see it. Most of the reactions are actually fine. Maybe you don't like the fact your point of view isn't shared that much on the comment section itself, but there is no need to act outraged like you do here.

After several days of stagnation, the pledge total is moving again. Did Fireforge get some advertising out somewhere?

 Psychopomp wrote:
After several days of stagnation, the pledge total is moving again. Did Fireforge get some advertising out somewhere?

12 new backers and up €3,060 that's €255 a head. Only 1 more EB went today (there was 588 available a few days ago it's now 595 so some EBs have been lost) no change in the Starter level backers it's been at or around 150 for a few days I don't recall the numbers for General but it's currently 23 so doubtful they all went there may be a larger retail pledge?. If new backers are in at lower levels it's more likely existing backers added to the total to get it over the €100k mark.

After a reminder that Crooked Dice is doing their 7TV Post-Apocalypse kickstarter soon, I got off the fence and cancelled my pledge. It's a shame - I've been excited by the previews for these minis all summer, but in the end Fireforge just wasn't offering enough bang for the buck to hold me in given the other options out there and coming up.

We'll see if I'm still excited about the minis at retail. I may just skip the Northmen altogether and cut my Undead down to a box or two of knights and that wight on foot.

 Psychopomp wrote:
After a reminder that Crooked Dice is doing their 7TV Post-Apocalypse kickstarter soon, I got off the fence and cancelled my pledge. It's a shame - I've been excited by the previews for these minis all summer, but in the end Fireforge just wasn't offering for me enough bang for the buck to hold me in given the other options out there and coming up..

Fixed your explanation to make it closer to the truth.

By the way, since you canceled your pledge, your posts don't show anymore by default in the comments section. Looks like it's a new feature of Kickstarter.

 Sarouan wrote:
Fixed your explanation to make it closer to the truth.

Except that it was already covered by the qualifier "to hold me in", yeah, sure.

I think I've been quite clear all along that these were concerns that *I* had about *my* situation regarding *my* money. I was trying to give Fireforge feedback about why they were close to losing *me*, and eventually did. I also tried to be clear that it was the international shipping and the knowledge that Fireforge is going to put this stuff out regardless of the Kickstarter that was impacting *my* financial incentives.

I think maybe people wanted to fit me into a narrative of people putting on a show to get more stuff out of Fireforge, but I was legitimately swaying on a project that I wanted to get the stuff with, but the discounts just weren't enough after shipping to lure *my* gaming dollars away from other things. I was trying to warn Fireforge about that, as others might be in the same situation (I know one friend who didn't pledge at all based on the same math) and give them some feedback on what was happening with *me*.

And they lost me. Obviously not others. There seem to be plenty of US backers happy with a small pre-order discount. I'm sure European backers have it much easier, given the lower shipping. But I have other hobby concerns, and I already have human and undead mass battle armies. These were add-ons. In *my* situation, it just makes more sense to wait 6 months to a year and a half, and use a US retailer to pick up 2-4 undead knight boxes and that infantry wight at 10% off and much lower shipping. That'll come out to less than I would have invested in this Kickstarter if Fireforge had made an offer I couldn't refuse, but they didn't. They made an offer I can and did refuse, and that's just how budgeting and personal finances work out, sometimes.

I also don't think Mantic and CMON are particularly breaking Kickstarter's purpose or spoiling customers, either. I think they're just good at realizing that project funding money is going to be slightly more valuable than future retail money if its actually used, and are good at offering lots of product at slightly above cost + shipping/handling to lure it in. I respect that, and I often go farther in on their projects than I would have, because I think they offer a *great* return (of discount product) on my (Kickstarter project) investment. They make me feel that the offer is worth paying today for minis a year from now, and Fireforge failed to convince me that their offer was worth paying today for minis half a year from now. And that's just me, it's based on my own cureent personal finances, budgeting methods, and expectations. And it's why Fireforge is out the $175 in pledge and shipping + ~$200 I was willing to add in the pledge manager...if *I* thought the deal was good enough. Oh well. Bring on the 7TV Kickstarter, and we'll see what the deals on a more unique offering are like!

Latest update adds value - an extra free box and sprue of your choice for those pledging over €100 and a free sprue of your choice for those under €100.

We exceeded 100k! To thank our supporters we decided to replace the 2 frames of your choice (90k and 110K) with a free box of your choice and an additional free frame of your choice for all those who have made a pledge more than 100 euros. For those who have made a pledge less than 100 euros 1 frame of your choice.

We have also added to the Add-on 3 types of castle and the Renedra Gatehouse. Add-on castles to save more money (instead of single parts).

So EBs now get 9 boxes plus characters that's €13.33 (£11.75, $15.37) per box without factoring in the characters and extra sprue (which is 1/3 of a box)

Starter is 10 boxes (but no choice other than 1 box) at €14 per box

General is 17 boxes at €14.05 per box

Take a €96 Veteran pledge and add €4 for 7 boxes at €14.28

(all of the above don't take into account the characters, rules books, game parts etc. and bonus sprue)

EB seems to be the best value right now (per box)

Better. They could still win me back if they do this a few more times. I'm very frustrated, because I want to be a part of this, but it's also got to be worth my while. Maybe an Early Bird instead of the Starter Box. I honestly don't care about the game, it's the minis that interest me, and the freedom of choice could help.

 Psychopomp wrote:
Better. They could still win me back if they do this a few more times. I'm very frustrated, because I want to be a part of this, but it's also got to be worth my while. Maybe an Early Bird instead of the Starter Box. I honestly don't care about the game, it's the minis that interest me, and the freedom of choice could help.

Oh you, you toxic commenter you I find it funny that people cannot make the connection between backers raising the value for money issue, Fireforge responding by adding more value and said people gaining from it as well. If no one raised the issue in comments there would be no extras for anyone.

But yeah EB is the way to go for just the minis and that's where I'll be staying. With an RRP of €20 you'd be hard pushed to get them at less than €16 with free shipping so the value is there now IMO.

I'm glad someone understands!

I mean, do I want ALL the things? Of course I do! But I can't have all the things. I have to, sadly, adult. I want to help Fireforge get these out quicker, and I want the minis. But I also want to help Crooked Dice and I want their minis. I also want ALL the Fallout minis, RIGHT NOW.

What people don't get is if Fireforge cross some threshold where I, personally, am wowed by the deal on offer, I'm prepared to drop my entire monthly gaming budget on this. But jeeze, they gotta compete for that by wowing me with a deal.

Does that make me entitled? Yes. That word means a thing! I am, legitimately, fundamentally entitled to decide where my money goes and entitled to decide what deal constitutes "good enough" for me. That's what we do with every purchase, from which cheese to buy at the grocery to which miniatures Kickstarter to support. It's not a negative or assumed sense of entitlement, its our actual entitlement as discerning investors!

Yeah, not directed at anyone in particular, but something good for everyone to keep in mind: So often I see people on the internet hear something they don't like about a larger situation they also don't like, and to the person saying it they go, "Well that's just YOUR OPINION, that's just you! It doesn't matter what YOU think, you're just ONE PERSON!" And then to handle the larger situation that they also don't like they go, "All the world is broken! Everyone but me and the two other people that agree with me are STUPID! You're all dumb/entitled/simple/spoiled/clueless, and oh, did I mention ENTITLED?????"

I'm just going to be honest, people who do that look like childish fools, mentally incapable of judging facts and dealing with reality. Because in reality that other person has an objective opinion based on their reasonable interpretation of the facts. So no, it's not just one person's meaningless opinion when they're accounting for how the world actually works, and you are not. It's just you being a petulant whiner to someone who is trying to be rational. And all you do is turn everyone off to you, your thoughts, and whatever it is you're arguing, because you're irrational and insulting.

Fireforge is adding value to their KS, that's good because they needed to. They needed to because they are in a competitive marketplace selling to collectors who already have more wants than they can afford to buy, on top of this project, so there has to be a reason to spend on Forgotten World over ALL those other games and models. The marketplace does determine an objective level of value, and Kickstarter does demand additional value due to the drawbacks involved. And that's that.

Here, have a good pat in the back for your good deeds.

What I find the most funny is that some people really think it's just one guy moaning that gets the company's reaction. It's not. All that drama in the comments section is completely unnecessary, as well as the comments here. But if you'd like to think/feel you have a major role in all this, suit yourself.

What is sad though is that Psychopomp/Narzoth will be seen if he comes back, and that people will clearly notice and make fun of it because of the way Kickstarter made that new feature about comments made by backers leaving the project.

No one has made any such claim that I've seen. Certainly not me, if that's who you've referred to.

I'm just one potential backer who gave feedback. And when I left, I explained why. Fireforge can keep adding value and maybe bring me back in but it'll be their decision to do so. I don't dictate their actions any more than they can dictate what I do with my money.

But there's still a chance in the next two weeks they'll keep adding some value and hit a threshold where I'll come back in. But there's a chance they won't. There's a lot of competition in this market right now, and they don't just have to offer me a better deal, they've got to offer me something I think beats other deals on offer.