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 Phobos wrote:
This is one of the worst Kickstarters I have seen in a while.

20% off and I have to pay shipping and wait a year with no guarantee I will even get anything?

Oh yeah, sign me up lol. NOT.

This is, succinctly, the problem with the kickstarter

 Sarouan wrote:

I see you can't give up on the bone even when dropping the Kickstarter. To me, it really looks like the people having a grudge is not Fireforge or their backers, but you needing to find excuses and justifications for this sad thread.

Ultimately, it's about context and quality of posts. Dakka isn't a tightly-moderated, happy-posts-only, forum or facebook group. It's a much more open forum. It means you get much more open discussion, which includes both positive and negative comments on whatever the topic is, as long as it's kept civil. The discussion in this thread has actually been higher than in most, because it's only been a couple of people who have felt the need to stoop to insulting people who disagree with them - and if you need to polarise that characterisation, it's mostly been people on the "positive" side that have done that. Psychopomp and Bob's post in particular have been calm, rational discussion - which is entirely on-topic here.

If you wish to control the conversation, or keep it to positive discussion only, then there are ways to do that - you could set up your own forum where you're the admin/moderator (tapatalk for example), there are facebook groups, as noted earlier, or you could set up your own wordpress or blogger blog and control discussion in that way.

But that's not how this forum works. You don't get to moderate based on what you personally want from a discussion on Dakka. If people are trolling, badly, they get asked to tone it down. But the fact is that a lot is let alone here. There are still too-regular comments in AoS threads by (seemingly the same few) people that essentially amount to trolling because AoS killed WHFB. At that point, in my opinion, people are just trolling or pissing on others' enjoyment for their own enjoyment/selfish need to vent.

But that's not happening here.

Here, in this current thread for a currently-running KS that has been ...underwhelmingly managed, where a company rep did a moderately damaging but incredibly stupid thing, people aren't trolling. The "Negative" people have been (mostly) offering feedback about the campaign and engaging in (mostly) rational discussion with the (mostly) mature "Positive" people. There have only been a few outliers trying to turn it into a childish slapfight with "waaaaa, entitled, bitches" level posts.

Pricing is arguably on topic for a KS thread? Arguably?

Past the point of being productive? Do you think that the fifteen or so max active people in this thread over the last week or so have been especially "productive". It's a discussion forum. That's the product. Fireforge clearly listened to ...the numbers. Not people or their comments. Except Bob's, which one company rep did. Which was just

It shows they're watching/reading occasionally, even if not actively responding.

So, Fireforge guy - that was a fething stupid (and apparently illegal in the EU) thing to do. It won't make a difference in this campaign, but some people now won't purchase your products. You'll probably not ever actually notice it (how do you notice or not notice a few dozen - or even a few hundred boxes not being sold? Especially over a period of time). But the internet will remember, and it'll be a joke that people roll out from time to time to poke fun at you.

Oh, and it's probably worth pointing out - I'm not a "hater" or your "enemy". I'm a customer. I've purchased more than 20 boxes of your historical figures over the years, and my opinion of this KS was that while the models didn't grab me personally enough to tip the balance for that value proposition this far out (+ the great unknown of shipping) I've always said that I hoped the campaign would fund. After that stupid move, will I "boycott" Fireforge? Probably not, if the kits are good enough - but if there's a choice on what to purchase (and there always is - because time and money) then you've bumped the likelihood of me buying a thing from you or from another company (Conquest? Warlord? Gripping Beast? Perry? Northstar?) in the competition's direction. Which is a shame.

ecurtz wrote:
How quickly would this thread have been locked if it had degenerated into fighting about GW's pricing rules?

If GW were actually posting in the thread trying to justify their pricing policies, probably more quickly than this one due to how quickly it would have turned into World War 3...

The discussion here is the direct result of communication from Fireforge, so the ensuing discussion is understandable, and fine so long as it stays civil.

 Phobos wrote:
This is one of the worst Kickstarters I have seen in a while.

20% off and I have to pay shipping and wait a year with no guarantee I will even get anything?

Oh yeah, sign me up lol. NOT.

20% off for lower pledges (like a single box), the higher pledges have a better discount... The Early bird being 51% off currently. Shipping is in May which is 8 months, not a year. Though like most kickstarters I would not be surprised if that shipping date slips. As far as the guarantee you will get anything though, isn't that kind of kickstarter in general? There is no guarantee on any kickstarter. Some (like CMON) are pretty much a given that you will get your stuff, but even those that you think will (like Soda Pop back in the day) don't necessarily mean they actually will. Fireforge being a pretty established company means it is more likely than not to deliver... but there is of course a chance they wont.

Look, I get that Lord Ekard making the statement asking about Who Bob's LGS was... not smart.... but I don't know if that one thing is enough to now warn people off of the whole company with statements like they don't have integrity and the like. People have been saying that the discount is not enough and they will wait till retail where they can get a bigger discount... Fireforge must be looking at this saying "our kickstarter is not doing well because people are offering bigger discounts than what we have been allowing" I am sure the response by Lord Ekard was an emotional one... not smart but I don't think its a big enough deal to write off the company as unethical.

I like the models, I think the discount is good enough for the level I am at (51% off). I don't know enough about the company to say they are unethical. So I am still in.

Edit: I do think the shipping is high though.

 lord marcus wrote:

 Phobos wrote:
This is one of the worst Kickstarters I have seen in a while.
20% off and I have to pay shipping and wait a year with no guarantee I will even get anything?
Oh yeah, sign me up lol. NOT.

This is, succinctly, the problem with the kickstarter

Depending on the bundle, the discount is now/can be quite a bit more. But there is still shipping which may or may not resemble the current estimates by the time the product ships. Something to bear in mind, certainly, but that's not something unique to this campaign.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Smokestack wrote:

 Phobos wrote:
This is one of the worst Kickstarters I have seen in a while.

20% off and I have to pay shipping and wait a year with no guarantee I will even get anything?

Oh yeah, sign me up lol. NOT.

20% off for lower pledges (like a single box), the higher pledges have a better discount... The Early bird being 51% off currently. Shipping is in May which is 8 months, not a year. Though like most kickstarters I would not be surprised if that shipping date slips. As far as the guarantee you will get anything though, isn't that kind of kickstarter in general? There is no guarantee on any kickstarter. Some (like CMON) are pretty much a given that you will get your stuff, but even those that you think will (like Soda Pop back in the day) don't necessarily mean they actually will. Fireforge being a pretty established company means it is more likely than not to deliver... but there is of course a chance they wont.

Look, I get that Lord Ekard making the statement asking about Who Bob's LGS was... not smart.... but I don't know if that one thing is enough to now warn people off of the whole company with statements like they don't have integrity and the like. People have been saying that the discount is not enough and they will wait till retail where they can get a bigger discount... Fireforge must be looking at this saying "our kickstarter is not doing well because people are offering bigger discounts than what we have been allowing" I am sure the response by Lord Ekard was an emotional one... not smart but I don't think its a big enough deal to write off the company as unethical.

I like the models, I think the discount is good enough for the level I am at (51% off). I don't know enough about the company to say they are unethical. So I am still in.

This is why the discussion is allowed to continue and isn't being heavily moderated. (doesn't mean the mods aren't watching, as you've seen).
Calm, reasoned, rational discussion. Can't argue those Soda Pop/DUST&GF9 points. Those guys were hardly Defiance games or the HeroQuest 25 people.

Do remind as well that the representative of Fireforge clearly has difficulties to speak english. So some words he used may have been not that appropriate for you americans.

And yes, you can calmly talk about demolishing the company for your perceived outrage. But honestly, it seems quite clear to me that the people more vocal here have already picked their side (and got out of this Kickstarter for a while). So their advice to "uninformed" potential backers has to be warned to be biased.

On the other hand, I fully understand it's not interesting to pledge from the other side of the sea, since it's an European project and well...shipping taxes suck hard, yes. If it can make you feel better, do know that I'm often being hit the same when I want to pledge for a US based company's Kickstarter. You don't see me whining about how unfair it is...that's just how the real world works.

 Sarouan wrote:
Do remind as well that the representative of Fireforge clearly has difficulties to speak english. So some words he used may have been not that appropriate for you americans.

And yes, you can calmly talk about demolishing the company for your perceived outrage. But honestly, it seems quite clear to me that the people more vocal here have already picked their side (and got out of this Kickstarter for a while). So their advice to "uninformed" potential backers has to be warned to be biased.

On the other hand, I fully understand it's not interesting to pledge from the other side of the sea, since it's an European project and well...shipping taxes suck hard, yes. If it can make you feel better, do know that I'm often being hit the same when I want to pledge for a US based company's Kickstarter.

You Americans?

really?

 Azazelx wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:
Do remind as well that the representative of Fireforge clearly has difficulties to speak english. So some words he used may have been not that appropriate for you americans.

And yes, you can calmly talk about demolishing the company for your perceived outrage. But honestly, it seems quite clear to me that the people more vocal here have already picked their side (and got out of this Kickstarter for a while). So their advice to "uninformed" potential backers has to be warned to be biased.

On the other hand, I fully understand it's not interesting to pledge from the other side of the sea, since it's an European project and well...shipping taxes suck hard, yes. If it can make you feel better, do know that I'm often being hit the same when I want to pledge for a US based company's Kickstarter.

You Americans?

really?

Given the lil flag of a lot of people saying shipping taxes suck for this project, yes, them americans indeed. They live in America, I believe. That's why the flag is for, most of the time, just like my flag shows I'm from Belgium. You know.

It doesn't apply to you, of course, but well...I wasn't talking about you here.

The issue is the usual one with Kickstarters.

1) Consumer A looks at Kickstarter and thinks it doesn't warrant enough for him to pledge...based on his own criteria.
2) Consumer A then says the Kickstarter sucks, it's a crap business, the value is garbage, why would he ever pledge, etc.

Unfortunately those two have nothing to do with eachother. A Kickstarter could be run with zero benefits...solely asking if people are interested in pre-ordering stuff, with no discount. That doesn't make it a bad Kickstarter. It makes it a Kickstarter that doesn't interest Consumer A. But, this is the internet, where Consumer A's opinion is put forward as some kind of fact. Consumer A may be basing his expectations off of other companies Kickstarters - but those have nothing to do with this company's Kickstarter. Rather than simply say "This doesn't interest me enough, or offer enough for me." and move on like an adult, Consumer A needs to rant and rave for pages and pages over why his value judgment trumps the validity of the Kickstarter to other buyers.

I didn't even buy into this Kickstarter, but I'm so tired of seeing people parade around as if their opinion matters.

ecurtz wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Also, is locking threads over GW pricing a thing that happens on Dakka? That seems like more of a Warseer thing.

They seem to try and keep things on topic in News and Rumors. I was thinking more that and Rule 1 than pricing discussion per se. And yes, pricing is at least arguably on topic for a Kickstarter thread, but it's clearly past the point where it's productive.

I already mix some Fireforge historical parts with my Frostgrave, so the scale isn't an issue for me. Gives it that authentic 80s randomly sized limbs feeling.

Well, a Kickstarter campaign is a bit like a bazaar; creators hawk their wares directly to the customer, and negotiation is a key aspect of that. And since we know Fireforge is following the conversation, it is in our own interest to state clearly the price or value that would get us to hand over our money. Fireforge is learning a lot from this campaign and will almost certainly run another campaign later, so the conversation is still productive.

Randomized limb sizes are one of those things I find amusing in a single mini but tend not to splurge on.

And I still plan to buy some of their peasants, and maybe not-Lannisters or dwarfs when they hit American-style retail. Despite the drama, I still like Fireforge better than CMON.

 Sarouan wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:
Do remind as well that the representative of Fireforge clearly has difficulties to speak english. So some words he used may have been not that appropriate for you americans.

And yes, you can calmly talk about demolishing the company for your perceived outrage. But honestly, it seems quite clear to me that the people more vocal here have already picked their side (and got out of this Kickstarter for a while). So their advice to "uninformed" potential backers has to be warned to be biased.

On the other hand, I fully understand it's not interesting to pledge from the other side of the sea, since it's an European project and well...shipping taxes suck hard, yes. If it can make you feel better, do know that I'm often being hit the same when I want to pledge for a US based company's Kickstarter.

You Americans?

really?

Given the lil flag of a lot of people saying shipping taxes suck for this project, yes, them americans indeed. They live in America, I believe. That's why the flag is for, most of the time, just like my flag shows I'm from Belgium. You know.

It doesn't apply to you, of course, but well...I wasn't talking about you here.

His words were read by all of us here. In English. They were a poor choice regardless of where they were read. A generalised statement about "you Americans" is pretty insulting to, you know, those of us not from there. It's (possibly) like if I decided to call you a Frenchman or something.

As for the rest - "Demolishing" the company? Hyperbole much? I'm sure they're in no immediate danger of going out of business, but the simple, blunt fact is that poor English or not (and his English was pretty bloody good, quite frankly) he made the choice to post that. It was a bad choice. There will be a reaction from different people, and the nature and severity of that reaction will vary. It won't put them out of business, but it's certainly not going to help them. He (and any others) would probably do well to not repeat that particular foolish choice.

I do agree with you, Elbows.

 Elbows wrote:
The issue is the usual one with Kickstarters.

1) Consumer A looks at Kickstarter and thinks it doesn't warrant enough for him to pledge...based on his own criteria.
2) Consumer A then says the Kickstarter sucks, it's a crap business, the value is garbage, why would he ever pledge, etc.

Unfortunately those two have nothing to do with eachother. A Kickstarter could be run with zero benefits...solely asking if people are interested in pre-ordering stuff, with no discount. That doesn't make it a bad Kickstarter. It makes it a Kickstarter that doesn't interest Consumer A. But, this is the internet, where Consumer A's opinion is put forward as some kind of fact. Consumer A may be basing his expectations off of other companies Kickstarters - but those have nothing to do with this company's Kickstarter. Rather than simply say "This doesn't interest me enough, or offer enough for me." and move on like an adult, Consumer A needs to rant and rave for pages and pages over why his value judgment trumps the validity of the Kickstarter to other buyers.

I didn't even buy into this Kickstarter, but I'm so tired of seeing people parade around as if their opinion matters.

Except most people here are just saying 1) and not moving to 2).

As for your last line. Pot meet kettle. Why are you posting on forums at all in that case?

BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Spoiler:

 Sarouan wrote:
And good luck finding these discounted zombie and living peasant plastic kits where you live, Lord Marcus.

Making a challenge of it? Knowing how Americans feel about bargain hunting, price fixing, and retailers, I fully expect "25% off Fireforge" to become A Thing.

 Azazelx wrote:


As for your last line. Pot meet kettle. Why are you posting on forums at all in that case?

In this sea of people moaning, there are sometimes useful information and news you don't get elsewhere. That's why I keep coming here, Dakkadakka still gives a nice point of view worldwide IMHO. You just have to adapt to the vibe. I'm not gentle either, I admit.

 Elbows wrote:
But, this is the internet, where Consumer A's opinion is put forward as some kind of fact.

I generally find the best solution for this is to stop interpreting clear statements of opinion as statements of fact...

I didn't even buy into this Kickstarter, but I'm so tired of seeing people parade around as if their opinion matters.

Discussion forums are a venue for people to share their opinions on discussion topics. If that's not something you find value in, it's possible that forums just aren't for you.



So, how about we move the topic back past how horrible it is that some people have opinions that differ from our own, and back to the Kickstarter?

 Donomar wrote:

Azazelx wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:
Do remind as well that the representative of Fireforge clearly has difficulties to speak english. So some words he used may have been not that appropriate for you americans.

You Americans?
really?

Nice baiting there but the American reference was already introduced earlier by one of your mates

No baiting. However, the onus is on the writer to ensure that their meaning is clear. The words that the Fireforge rep used were not "appropriate" for anyone and Sarouan's comment was (and is) easily interpreted as directed at anyone that took issue with the Fireforge rep's words.

Donomar wrote:

Azazelx wrote:
Also looks suspiciously like FF are "helping" their own project get funded.

Any actual proof of the snide aspersion above?

Proof? This isn't court. I'm allowed to think that something that looks suspicious is suspicious. There's no burden of proof on a thought. If you don't mind or care, then more power to you.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sarouan wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

 Elbows wrote:

I didn't even buy into this Kickstarter, but I'm so tired of seeing people parade around as if their opinion matters.

As for your last line. Pot meet kettle. Why are you posting on forums at all in that case?

In this sea of people moaning, there are sometimes useful information and news you don't get elsewhere. That's why I keep coming here, Dakkadakka still gives a nice point of view worldwide IMHO. You just have to adapt to the vibe. I'm not gentle either, I admit.

That's fine. That question was clearly directed singularly at Elbows' amusingly hypocritical comment. I generally agree on Dakka, though seemingly every time I get involved in a thread, I find a person or two to be so obtuse or stupid, often without any redeeming features that I have to add them to my ignore list. Nature of the internet. Nature of forums. More people should do the same and save themselves some aggravation. (And even better if people I'm ignoring add me so there's even less I have to do with them!)

I don't agree with everything that you say, or even the way you say them, but you're not on that list.

With regard to the “self funding” I observed the total jump €5,000 in one go the other day and €6,500 today in 3 increments with only 1 new backer at that time how people interpret that is up to them but it’s something potential backers should be aware of if it’s not genuine (and I’m not saying it isn’t) it may affect the project creators ability to deliver if they end up with less funds than expected.

I’ve put forward 3 possibilities

A) Fireforge did it themselves in which case I hope they aren’t over extending themselves but putting in €11k to get €120k back I could see why they might do that plus they can default on the payment after the KS so there’s no real cost and the project is still deemed to be funded.
B) A few retailers did genuinely go in for some huge pledges 50 starters or 200+ boxes each that’s a big commitment of cash flow 8 months out but if so happy days it’s getting good retailer support
C) some backers are manipulating the total to get it funded and will then lower their pledge as it picks up momentum in the last 48 hours. Fireforge can see all backer pledges and can spot anomalous pledges. You can’t reduce a pledge in the last 48 hours if it drops the total below the funding level but you can default on payment.

Another option is some or all of the above. No idea which it is but there is €11,500 in there that’s out of the ordinary.

KS themselves also have the option to withhold funds if they suspect something is off if there’s a large default in payments that might trigger it. There is always a percentage of pledges that are never collected.

Personally I’m still in for a few boxes but had to scale back as I only have a €200 games budget this month and it’s got spread very thin. Zealot took some so did GW. Hopefully the PM is someway off and I might have extra funds then.

 Sarouan wrote:
But honestly, it seems quite clear to me that the people more vocal here have already picked their side (and got out of this Kickstarter for a while). So their advice to "uninformed" potential backers has to be warned to be biased.

Back to this - why does there need to be a "side"?

I (and others) have stated a bunch of times that we don't hate Fireforge. We don't hope the campaign doesn't fund. We're customers. But then not everyone finds the value in this particular project to be worthwhile, and then they explain why. I'll take Psychopomp and Bobs' posts for example - now think about them calmly and rationally. Do you think they're trolling, or are they offering feedback - as if their opinion (as customers) matters? They're hardly "u suk lol" posts, or "these fethers don't deserve to fund" posts. They're customer feedback.

Despite calls to keep the conversation wholly positive, an echo chamber doesn't achieve anything really. Endorphins due to reinforcement theory. As I've said, that's a think that can be done in groups set up for that purpose, but it's not the nature of discussion forums. Bob and PP may not be backing at this time, but they're somewhat engaged with the project as opposed to indifferent. As a company, would you prefer such non-trolly feedback from consumers - even if it wasn't all positive - or indifference?

The human interaction (albeit digitally) is also entertainment of a sort. Otherwise, they'd just read and lurk and probably not bother posting. And neither would you. Or I.

 lord marcus wrote:

 Phobos wrote:
This is one of the worst Kickstarters I have seen in a while.

20% off and I have to pay shipping and wait a year with no guarantee I will even get anything?

Oh yeah, sign me up lol. NOT.

This is, succinctly, the problem with the kickstarter

I've found FireForge's historical kits on The War Store website at a 12% discount from MSRP. It appears that Miniature Market, Noble Knight and Brigade Games don't carry Fire Forge products. I've found Fire Forge kits on Ebay but the average price is usually MSRP or higher plus shipping. Getting the new fantasy kits at 20% off or better through the KS seemed like a better deal than waiting for retail.

Unfortunately I've had to drop my pledge but I did so because GW managed to time the relaunch of the LotR SBG with our kids reading the books so now we're playing the game at home so I unearthed all my LotR stuff and moved it out of the closet to a more readily accessible location to finish painting it all which prompted my wife to ask me just how many toy soldiers I had. Since I need to buy more MESBG kits for Xmas I dropped this pledge since it was mainly an impulse buy and I didn't back Tre's relaunched KS either (which unfortunately broke a string of backing a half dozen consecutive RBG projects).

I looked at the project. It seems....alright. But the value isn't good enough to suck the money out my wallet, and the product isn't unique enough to care if it doesn't fund.

That all having been said, hearing that they're playing the GW game with regards to supply/demand has given their name (previously a rather faceless bland one to me) a slightly sour connotation now. Nothing I'm going to actively boycott for, but as someone else said; if it's their 'generic plastic human soldiers' or someone like Shieldwolf's in future? I know which company I like more now. So there is that.

Biggest thing holding me back still is getting enough bang for my buck.

Bob really hit the nail on the head. There's a bit of showmanship and pageantry involved in running a successful kickstarter, not to mention that sense of excitement of seeing new bonus items unlock and get added to your pledge.

Kind of staggering this miserable conversation is still going on.

I think the conversation is good, healthy and I'm glad it is happening.

Certainly the "official" Fireforge contributions spiced it up quite a bit.

It's actually quite enjoyable, on many levels.

Pretty much more than the actual Fireforge Forgotten World Kickstarter itself.

BobtheInquisitor gets a fair amount of grief for his 'not that funny' "Funny" posts, but he's spot on here.

Still, this one has funded (barely), and even if Fireforge is playing games with pledges, everything still should be produced and shipped eventually.

Always good to have more options out there, especially in plastic. Fireforge has created quite a few plastic historical kits which is great, always good to see more historical stuff especially in new periods. Generic plastic fantasy stuff is not as exciting in that regard since there is also Mantic and Frostgrave stuff out there, but I'm glad this funded. It's always good to have more options, and these look better than Mantics stuff and more like soldiers vs. the Frostgrave adventurers.

Glad it funded. I added and dropped twice but I'm glad these will hit the market. Just worried my interest of the moment won't be there in 6+ months so I'm cool with any additional cost I might pay at retail.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Glad it funded. I added and dropped twice but I'm glad these will hit the market. Just worried my interest of the moment won't be there in 6+ months so I'm cool with any additional cost I might pay at retail.

Yeah... If I am honest with myself, I have no need for these at this time. I can make use of them, but no real need. I am kind of a hoarder when it comes to minis. I fully expect to assemble all of them, out them in units with cool leaders that I name... and then put them on a shelf in my basement unpainted.

I tend to look at minis in kickstarters as stuff I "could" have a use for in the future, and would rather have them on hand if I do... That is why I dropped $1000 on Bones 4... Wow, that just depressed me.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Glad it funded. I added and dropped twice but I'm glad these will hit the market. Just worried my interest of the moment won't be there in 6+ months so I'm cool with any additional cost I might pay at retail.

I'm kind of in the same boat.
Pledged the starter box, was disappointed by the state of the rules that could be barely called a first draft, dropped down to the 8 box pledge and now down to just the two KS exclusives.
No doubt the zombies, folk rabble and Northmen will eventually find their way into my collection for various skirmisher, but right now, I better invest in Zealot Miniatures Backerkit and upcoming Relicblade KS.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Always good to have more options out there, especially in plastic. Fireforge has created quite a few plastic historical kits which is great, always good to see more historical stuff especially in new periods. Generic plastic fantasy stuff is not as exciting in that regard since there is also Mantic and Frostgrave stuff out there, but I'm glad this funded. It's always good to have more options, and these look better than Mantics stuff and more like soldiers vs. the Frostgrave adventurers.

The Oathmark human soldier HIPs kits are up for preorder if you want Frostgrave scale human soldiers now.
https://mustcontainminis.com/2018/08/oathmark-humans-by-north-star-military-figures.html

48 hour emails should have just gone out. As it's over €130,000 the project now cannot unfund.