Worf's family drama was a running theme across TNG and DS9. He didn't come right out and just resolve it and frankly his whole deal was a lot less overly dramatic than you see in a lot of shows today. Worf was basically a war orphan. He wasn't a war orphan who was then enslaved who was then forced to watch everyone he knew die who then learned the cruelty of his captors who then got set adrift in space and holy gak there's like 5 different traumatic origin stories in this one character wtf.
It's the same reason that in series like Stargate each "new bad" that comes along is WAY worse than the previous "big bad".
It's basically the idea that more is better taken to the extreme, which often results in, when its used for stories, a story that increasingly becomes hard to believe.
Supernatural is a great example of where this approach to story writing can very quickly go off the rails. Several seasons in and it increasingly becomes apparent that the world should not exist considering how 2 rather average brothers have almost destroyed it several times over.
It's a very easy trap to fall into and many writers fall into it. I think its born of a desire to always "improve" upon what was and improving upon a big evil threat; or a dark backstory is to make it even more. To make the big evil even more evil; to make the backstory even darker.
I would also like to throw the idea out that it would be totally and completely awesome if the super-damaged-super-dark backstory for the security chief was actually just a total lie.
Like, she really had this very normal and loving family life, totally normal career, and she is just a big ol liar (maybe pathological, maybe just cause she wants to seem interesting, maybe some other reason).
It would also work really well with her seemingly machiavellian tendencies in manipulating people.
Actually... have we EVER just had a big ol liar on Star-Trek? Someone who is just consistently BS'ing everyone? The closest that comes to my mind is either the way that Scotty straight up admits that he used to pad his estimates for repairs and such, or the way that Riker is seemingly ALWAYS bluffing at poker.
Should Pike really count as a Tragic Backstory when his whole deal is knowing that it’s future tragedy that is to befall him? Plus his thing happened in a previous season of Discovery so it’s not really an episode one sort of deal.
AduroT wrote: Should Pike really count as a Tragic Backstory when his whole deal is knowing that it’s future tragedy that is to befall him? Plus his thing happened in a previous season of Discovery so it’s not really an episode one sort of deal.
It also plays into his appearance in TOS so I think that's different.
Also it would be hilarious if La'an's backstory was a lie XD Lorca previously pulled that move though.
I'd argue that since Pike had that vision in Discovery his dealing with it is more akin to Picard's issues post Best of Both Worlds, personally, since we have examples of him before and after the traumatic event.
Either way though, I don't see the problem with this so far. La'an's big traumatic event is about on par with Kirk's or Kira's, but Uhura's is much smaller and more personal in scope.
And while everyone everywhere ever has baggage of some kind, here's hoping the faux-hawk pilot has a big happy family and no skeletons in the closet.
leerm02 wrote: I would also like to throw the idea out that it would be totally and completely awesome if the super-damaged-super-dark backstory for the security chief was actually just a total lie.
Like, she really had this very normal and loving family life, totally normal career, and she is just a big ol liar (maybe pathological, maybe just cause she wants to seem interesting, maybe some other reason).
It would also work really well with her seemingly machiavellian tendencies in manipulating people.
Actually... have we EVER just had a big ol liar on Star-Trek? Someone who is just consistently BS'ing everyone? The closest that comes to my mind is either the way that Scotty straight up admits that he used to pad his estimates for repairs and such, or the way that Riker is seemingly ALWAYS bluffing at poker.
Harcourt Fenton Mudd was known for telling porkies, quite a lot. Only in 3 episodes, though (2 TOS, 1 TAS ) but he might also have been in a Disco one (or was it a short trek?)
chromedog wrote: Harcourt Fenton Mudd was known for telling porkies, quite a lot. Only in 3 episodes, though (2 TOS, 1 TAS ) but he might also have been in a Disco one (or was it a short trek?)
Started watching first episode of SNW, and stopped after they mentioned the cursed DIS(aster) ship. I thought it is not in the same universe with that abomination. Ugh, I guess one less series to follow.
...it's a spin-off from the end of season 2 of Discovery, with at least Pike and Number One (I think) being the same actors. Why wouldn't they mention it, at least in passing?
Shadow Walker wrote: Started watching first episode of SNW, and stopped after they mentioned the cursed DIS(aster) ship. I thought it is not in the same universe with that abomination. Ugh, I guess one less series to follow.
Discovery is part of the prime timeline, you can hate that but thats the mentality they're following. that said turning the show off because they mention in passing the ship? that's petty. Maybe judge the show on I dunno.. it's own merits?
Shadow Walker wrote: Started watching first episode of SNW, and stopped after they mentioned the cursed DIS(aster) ship. I thought it is not in the same universe with that abomination. Ugh, I guess one less series to follow.
Discovery is part of the prime timeline, you can hate that but thats the mentality they're following. that said turning the show off because they mention in passing the ship? that's petty. Maybe judge the show on I dunno.. it's own merits?
Even before mentioning that pizza cutter the show was barely worth watching so they only helped me to decide.
One reference to a show you didn't like, in a new show that is only just 3 episodes in, and you ditch it? That is mind-boggling.
Wait you didn't even go past episode one?
I continue to like the return to classic Star Trek episodic plots. There is a problem of the week. The characters try to solve it. They end up facing themselves and the world around them in the process. The galaxy isn't about to implode if they don't do something stupid that only makes sense because the plot is stupid. Good Trek.
The characters continue to kind of agitate me. Why is it that the most normal people on this crew are the blind Andorian and the buzz cut pilot? At this rate, they probably have a stupidly convoluted secret history too that will crop up just to be a banal complication and distraction from what's actually good. There was a great idea in this episode, but it gets strangled by characters revealing their secrets... And two of them are particularly dumb in this episode.
Spoiler:
The Federation has no law against all genetic engineering. Only trying to create super-people is banned. Gene therapies have been part of Star Trek lore since TOS and while the Illyrian angle is sort of interesting, it feels overly dramatic for what it is. Bashir already did this character and it was a lot better because it was a lot more nuanced.
It's rather bizarre seeing the Illyrians come back up in those context after their one appearance in Enterprise too.
The Federation also has cryogenic technology. Why the feth is the doctor storing his kid in a damn transporter, in secret, on a ship that goes on dangerous missions? I'm sorry. That's fething stupid and we know it's going to be the source of a stupid plot point later. It could explain why Bones became chief medical officer in the time of TOS while M'Benga was still on the ship cause he got demoted or something, but it's just so eye rollingly dumb.
Are the writers just aenemic to normal people with relatable normal people problems?
Maybe they want us to dislike the cast so they can all gradually get replaced/sidelined for gradually bringing in the rest of the TOS crew?
While I also find it strange that you'd dump the most positively received Trek show they've yet put out within the first 15 minutes over a reference to another show and then go around bragging about it, you're at least walking the walk many others promised to and didn't, so good for you, I guess?
Anyway, for me, I gave it the 3 episode shake and I'm overall pretty happy with the show so far and willing to see it through the season at least. Three episodes, three very resonably well put together TOS style adventures that manage to sell themselves as modern without parodying the source material. Here's hoping I didn't get bamboozled.
As for the episode itself...
Spoiler:
We do have another tragic backstory to add to the list, while I wasn't complaining about it before the good doctor keeping his littlest cancer patient daughter in the transporter buffer forever rubs me the wrong way. Even though this is the obvious answer to every medical emergency in Trek ever and I'm glad to see it get addressed.
The twist with Number One is... odd. On the one hand it's being introduced early to make it part of the established initial setup for the show, and it would probably have been too Bashir if they had waited longer to do this reveal anyway, but on the other hand, just in-universe I don't understand how she wasn't caught sooner?
We also have confirmation that the people of the federation are not morons and understand the significance of La'an's last name, and also may be confirmation she's not actually genetically augmented herself. Does she still have traces of it in her makeup, or did one of her ancestors go through a super involved de-volving procedure like the aliens were trying to do here?
I think the Federation being stupidly moronic, to the point of being viciously cruel, is one of the things that really turned me off Picard and that I can look back on and see as annoying about Discovery.
Spoiler:
The reveals of this episode kind of compound that issue to me in a really annoying way. The Denobulans are Federation members and also canonically practiced genetic engineering. There must still be genetically engineered legacies in humans even if they're not actively practicing it anymore. Nothing has ever suggested the Federation is so paranoid about genetic engineering that they hard stop it in any and all contexts. Quite the opposite in fact. The first first episode of SNW's even goes into it, so where does this 'I'm genetically engineered but my entire species does it and we're not evil but I have to hide that all costs because of bigotry' thing come from?
On that angle, I actually find La'an more interesting than before. If she's just related to Khan distantly and part of her plot is dealing with that prejudice, there's a good angle there.
It's not like I want the Federation to be perfect. It's displayed prejudices before. But those prejudices made sense in context and the Federation was not so dogmatic that it was uncompassionate. They've dealt with genetic engineering in other shows without taking it to the point of outright bigotry and Federation prejudices reaching the point of outright bigotry I think is pissing on the source material a bit. This feels like that damned annoying check list rearing its head in the writing again, where things come up not because they make sense but because the board room wants to check all the boxes on what they think the audience wants even if it makes the writing bad.
Furthermore, the characters were the people we want enlightened humans to be in how they tackled those prejudices head on. In this case, it just feels moronic.
And it makes we wonder why La'an needs a whole other set of personal tragedy. Discovery and Picard feel to much like misery porn to be Star Trek and I didn't like that. They've at least avoided the plot here being misery porn, but the characters still feel like they're written to maximize everyone's misery and I don't like that.
The whole sub-plot feels insanely forced solely to some overwrought drama later that I'm already tired of before it's even started. Depends I guess on how these plots shake out. Maybe I'll be surprised. If nothing else the structure of the shows lets me kind of push the annoying bits to the side.
The Federation has no law against all genetic engineering. Only trying to create super-people is banned. Gene therapies have been part of Star Trek lore since TOS and while the Illyrian angle is sort of interesting, it feels overly dramatic for what it is. Bashir already did this character and it was a lot better because it was a lot more nuanced.
Spoiler:
How was that addressed in TOS? I legit don't remember. While they are bandying the term 'genetic engineering' as though its synonymous with creating super-people, the Illyrians were clearly doing just that.
How was that addressed in TOS? I legit don't remember. While they are bandying the term 'genetic engineering' as though its synonymous with creating super-people, the Illyrians were clearly doing just that.
Part of it is the issue of how Star Trek lore has evolved.
Spoiler:
In TOS, it's only ever mentioned that Earth banned genetic engineering. It only ever explicitly comes up in Space Seed, but that episode doesn't say the entire Federation banned it. The series has regularly engaged in genetic technobabble medicine. Starfleet's ban on genetically engineered persons doesn't come up until DS9, and even then it's Starfleet's ban, not the Federation's. That's maybe understandable as humans are really the spinal cord of Starfleet, even if it is open to basically everyone. It makes sense that Starfleet would reflect certain biases specific to humans.
This episode kind of compounds the issue for me all the same though. I suppose now that I look at the episode history, #1 has reason to be concerned. We could easily just take this as Starfleet's ban on genetically engineered super-persons goes back to this era and that tracks, but the idea that the Federation refuses peoples who do it from joining runs smack into the face of Denobulans being members, and numerous instances of the Federation engaging cordially with species who engineer in this manny in TNG, VOY, and DS9. I suppose retrospectively, there's enough holes here that it can work lorewise and what I really don't like is the idea that the Federation stood by and told an entire species that was peaceful to feth off because of bigotry that runs completely counter to everything the Federation is supposed to be and that we're setting up an entire sub-plot about the Federation being irrationally bigotted just so we can check off a box of a list of trendy topics to shallowly address in media. It's the wrong angle for this topic and this series.
Compare to the DS9 episode where Bajor looks like it might return to a caste system and are warned it would prevent them from joining the Federation. The episode doesn't mence topics there. Caste systems are bad. The Federation doesn't allow them. In comparison, the Federation clearly makes exceptions for genetic engineering when it's not going too far and creating different classes of people. Maybe my issue really is just a framing issue here and one that subsequent episodes will clear up in a way I find satisfactory.
On a more episode-specific basis, boy isn't the Enterprise lucky this specific person this specific history was on board. If they hadn't been there, I dare say everyone would have died and the show would be over.
In writing circles, we call that kind of contrivance a deus ex machine and it's kind of annoying more and more the more I talk about it >.>
That's Star Trek though, isn't it?
Like that time the Enterprise D encountered a Klingon ship that still thought it was the Fed-Klingon war and they had Worf and Kheylar on board to dissuade them. Or the time Voyager got attacked by Klingons in the Delta Quadrant and just so happened to have a pregnant Belanna on board with her half-human baby. Or that time that Sisko stopped a war between Bajor and Cardassia because he just so happened to be the Emissary of the Prophets and got Dukat's ship out of the Bajoran Wormhole. Or that time when the NX-Enterprise got almost taken over by Orions but Trip had a special connection with T'pol so was the only man on board not affected by the horny.
Should I go on or what?
Coincidence != contrivance, admitting of course that the distinction is a blurry line and quite subjective.
And while Star Trek is also no stranger to contrivance, I find this particular case very very lazy. Maybe if the overall point of the episode were less muddled it could work, but I'm just not sold on the whole drama (or possibly bitter that the much more interesting drama was the B plot). Mileage will very.
Are the writers just aenemic to normal people with relatable normal people problems?
Hollywood screenwriters aren't normal people. They can't fathom what normal people are actually like.
This is why we have characters on shows who are perpetually unemployed but live alone in multi-million $ apartments in major urban areas like LA and NY where rent would be >$10K a month. They have no concept of normal anything.
Gert wrote: One reference to a show you didn't like, in a new show that is only just 3 episodes in, and you ditch it? That is mind-boggling.
Wait you didn't even go past episode one?
I hate DIS(aster) with a passion. If SNW is in the same universe as that abomination it is reason enough to not watch it.
AduroT wrote: So give up on all Star Trek shows going forward because they’re all in it.
No problem with that. There are many new s-f shows out there (like Halo), and I can always see old ST (like my favourite TNG) again.
...but they're also in the same timeline as Discovery, as far as I'm aware, so they're now also tainted by association, preventing you from watching them in the future.
Gert wrote: One reference to a show you didn't like, in a new show that is only just 3 episodes in, and you ditch it? That is mind-boggling.
Wait you didn't even go past episode one?
I hate DIS(aster) with a passion. If SNW is in the same universe as that abomination it is reason enough to not watch it.
Ok, I'm gonna ask it because no one else has.
How much of discovery have you actually WATCHED?
and no "plot summeries by youtubers claiming it's aweful" doesn't count. How much have you watched?
Gert wrote: One reference to a show you didn't like, in a new show that is only just 3 episodes in, and you ditch it? That is mind-boggling.
Wait you didn't even go past episode one?
I hate DIS(aster) with a passion. If SNW is in the same universe as that abomination it is reason enough to not watch it.
Ok, I'm gonna ask it because no one else has.
How much of discovery have you actually WATCHED?
and no "plot summeries by youtubers claiming it's aweful" doesn't count. How much have you watched?
AduroT wrote: So give up on all Star Trek shows going forward because they’re all in it.
No problem with that. There are many new s-f shows out there (like Halo), and I can always see old ST (like my favourite TNG) again.
...but they're also in the same timeline as Discovery, as far as I'm aware, so they're now also tainted by association, preventing you from watching them in the future.
I do not care that some corpo drone decided that they are the same timeline just because they thought it will somehow force fans to acknowledge DIS as part of the same universe as TNG etc. And you trying to ridicule my choices will not change them.
Shadow Walker wrote: I do not care that some corpo drone decided that they are the same timeline just because they thought it will somehow force fans to acknowledge DIS as part of the same universe as TNG etc.
It's Rod Roddenberry & Roddenberry Entertainment that made that decision.
Shadow Walker wrote: I do not care that some corpo drone decided that they are the same timeline just because they thought it will somehow force fans to acknowledge DIS as part of the same universe as TNG etc.
It's Rod Roddenberry & Roddenberry Entertainment that made that decision.
I guess that his father is rolling in his grave with a speed of Warp 10.
Shadow Walker wrote: I do not care that some corpo drone decided that they are the same timeline just because they thought it will somehow force fans to acknowledge DIS as part of the same universe as TNG etc.
It's Rod Roddenberry & Roddenberry Entertainment that made that decision.
I guess that his father is rolling in his grave with a speed of Warp 10.
Because people on the internet is salty?
They were salty about TNG too, and that turned into 3 series in the same timeline, and of course 4 movies of franky variable quality. One suspects Mr Roddenberry is very much resting in peace?
Shadow Walker wrote: I do not care that some corpo drone decided that they are the same timeline just because they thought it will somehow force fans to acknowledge DIS as part of the same universe as TNG etc.
It's Rod Roddenberry & Roddenberry Entertainment that made that decision.
I guess that his father is rolling in his grave with a speed of Warp 10.
Because people on the internet is salty?
They were salty about TNG too, and that turned into 3 series in the same timeline, and of course 4 movies of franky variable quality. One suspects Mr Roddenberry is very much resting in peace?
Comparing TNG to the abomination with a magic mushroom drive
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AduroT wrote: So essentially you hate everything that’s in the same timeline as Discovery, except for the stuff you already watched?
It is in the same timeline only because a greedy son of the famous father thinks that he can milk any garbage just because he puts a ST name into it. For me it will never be a part of the same universe as TNG etc.
Comparing TOS to the abomination with a ship’s counsellor on the bridge.
Comparing TOS to the abomination with a Klingon officer on the bridge.
Comparing TOS to the abomination with a young teen serving on the bridge.
Do you see where I’m going with this? By all means if you don’t enjoy the new stuff, you don’t enjoy it. That’s solely your business and your opinion is to be respected.
Just realise the complaints folk have we raised against TNG too. We just didn’t have the internet where they could remind us every five minutes they didn’t enjoy something.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Comparing TOS to the abomination with a ship’s counsellor on the bridge.
Comparing TOS to the abomination with a Klingon officer on the bridge.
Comparing TOS to the abomination with a young teen serving on the bridge.
Do you see where I’m going with this? By all means if you don’t enjoy the new stuff, you don’t enjoy it. That’s solely your business and your opinion is to be respected.
Just realise the complaints folk have we raised against TNG too. We just didn’t have the internet where they could remind us every five minutes they didn’t enjoy something.
A) I never said that my opinion was law or something. I stated it and was immediately attacked as if it was a crime or I would be insane having it.
B) Do you seriously compare a new Starfleet programmes of having councellor/Klingon officer (who BTW was an orphan, and graduated the Academy)/families on board to something with a magic mushroom drive/Klingon ships looking not even little similar to official Klingon ships of that era etc. etc.?
AduroT wrote: It’s true, you wouldn’t suddenly want the Klingons looking completely different…
TNG/movies Klingons looked just like they always wanted them to look but never had the budget to do them in TOS. It is not the same as changing them just for the sake of change, just like their ships.
Regarding the "how convenient that they happened to have that EXACT person when they needed them!" discussion a bit back in the posts:
One of my old writing professors once gave out what I still consider to be a bit of golden advice.
He said to us that people will always accept the impossible in their impossible stories- monsters and magic and faster-then-light travel- because that is what they came there for. If they didn't want to see a story about magic then they wouldn't be reading Harry Potter in the first place.
What people will NEVER accept is the improbable. Things that could happen, but almost certainly wouldn't. That sort of thing stands out to the audience and takes them away from the suspension of disbelief. So, we can accept that Captain Pike has a troubled past where something extraordinary happened to him and now he has to deal with it in his captaincy (his "normal" job in this universe)... but it seems improbable that each and every person he talks to or interacts with has a similar story as well.
It starts to strain our sense of how probability itself works to have to also accept that in this vast and impossible universe, these very specifically damaged characters would both serve together and also be directly related to whatever plot line they happen to come across.
To me, this reminds me of the starting session of a new D&D campaign, where a bunch of wildly interesting characters happen to come across one another in "Joes Medieval Tavern" in the fantasy equivalent of hicksville, and spend the first thirty minutes telling one another their thrilling and almost certainly traumatic origin stories before moving on to the nearest goblin camp or whatever.
Now, I want to be clear that I actually AM enjoying the new series and I AM looking forward to it each week... but these ridiculous and convenient backstories being shoved down our throats are starting to feel like a DM being like: "Oh, and Chad's ranger TOTALLY was captured by these goblins when he was a boy, and they tortured him for like ten years. Isn't that right, Chad?"
Shadow Walker wrote: I do not care that some corpo drone decided that they are the same timeline just because they thought it will somehow force fans to acknowledge DIS as part of the same universe as TNG etc.
It's Rod Roddenberry & Roddenberry Entertainment that made that decision.
Ask me how I feel about Brian Herbert’s Dune books.
AduroT wrote: It’s true, you wouldn’t suddenly want the Klingons looking completely different…
Or Romulan ships looking completely different.
Or suddenly introducing Ferengi, Borg, Jem Hadar and Cardassians as galactic movers and shakers not at all mentioned previously.
All being easily explained by TOS limited budget, and/or still unexplored space at that era.
Ah, handwavium.
Everything I’ve mentioned was moaned about heavily during TNG by weirdo TOS Puritans. And everything I’ve mentioned is what you’re complaining about Disco and Picard.
AduroT wrote: It’s true, you wouldn’t suddenly want the Klingons looking completely different…
Or Romulan ships looking completely different.
Or suddenly introducing Ferengi, Borg, Jem Hadar and Cardassians as galactic movers and shakers not at all mentioned previously.
All being easily explained by TOS limited budget, and/or still unexplored space at that era.
Ah, handwavium.
Everything I’ve mentioned was moaned about heavily during TNG by weirdo TOS Puritans. And everything I’ve mentioned is what you’re complaining about Disco and Picard.
A) I am not complaining about Picard. It had it flaws (like Q and El-Aurians story) but I still liked it, and intend to watch season 3. Unlike DIS, I never had the feeling I am not watching ST show.
B) I am not handwaving what you posted. I am pointing that comparison of DIS to TNG makes no sense. Simply stating that people were having difficulties to accept the changes does not make it any more comparable to what DIS did with the long established canon. In TOS time they had no budget to make proper make-up or many ship variants etc. etc. With TNG they could make all that reality. DIS changed things for a sake of change, because some moron thought that ST cannot be ST to sell it for the new audience.
Discovery poisoned the relatively good and aged piece of steak that was Star Trek. Now there is a deadly dose of poison in the marinade the chef prepared, so while the steak is great, even a single small dose is enough to kill sadly. It's all rubbish now because that thought in my head that Discovery and Picard are somehow all in the same timeline, and while I could theoretically still eat the steak, there is still however the thought of dealing with the poison down the line.
They aren’t in the same timeline and never will be for any discerning fan. Might as well tell me the new Ghostbusters films are in the same timeline as the originals, and the cartoon.
Despite common sense and basic observation saying otherwise, Splinter in the Mind’s Eye totally happened between Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back, guys. Lucas film said so.
I’m also fine considering TOS and Movies-TNG-DS9-Voyager as different continuities. They just both happen to be good continuities, unlike the Melvin Timeline and Paramount Plus Trek.
Shadow Walker wrote: A) I am not complaining about Picard. It had it flaws (like Q and El-Aurians story) but I still liked it, and intend to watch season 3. Unlike DIS, I never had the feeling I am not watching ST show.
Funny enough, that was my exact complaint about Picard when they were...
Spoiler:
running around the chateau, dodging bullets, killing highly trained mercenaries (assimilated by the Borg, no less) with knives.
It was like watching a netflix original Bruce Willis movie, right down to the bad CGI squibs and muzzle flashes.
Shadow Walker wrote: B) I am not handwaving what you posted. I am pointing that comparison of DIS to TNG makes no sense. Simply stating that people were having difficulties to accept the changes does not make it any more comparable to what DIS did with the long established canon. In TOS time they had no budget to make proper make-up or many ship variants etc. etc. With TNG they could make all that reality. DIS changed things for a sake of change, because some moron thought that ST cannot be ST to sell it for the new audience.
Not for nothing, the TNG era had a lot of these problems too: the Excelsior and Miranda classes are insanely venerable in-universe because the creators of the show had access to the models, and the shows budget leads to all sorts of weird scenarios on screen, etc. Enterprise re-uses CGI ship assets from the TNG era, there are elements on the set of that show that look (and are, conceptually) more futuristic than TNG tech. The need for Star Trek to be set in the future requires a certain amount of visual flair and aesthetic that will change with the times when the shows are made, and I think we can agree on that.
The other part of it, Discovery's story choices are canon, yes, they smashed through existing lore like a Star Trek: Enterprise sized bull in a china shop, yes, they have to work around it as best they can when they bump into something else they're making. It has, so far, been limited to the gentlest of nods in the first 15 minutes of the first episode of Strange New Worlds, in order to hand off the TOS era to the new series while Discovery gets flung into the far far future. If that is enough to convince you to dump Strange New Worlds, then maybe that hypothetical moron is right, and you can't make money doing a Star Trek-like Star Trek.
Just realise the complaints folk have we raised against TNG too. We just didn’t have the internet where they could remind us every five minutes they didn’t enjoy something.
I humorously commented on this in a STO chat recently.
If there is one tried and true tradition with the Star Trek fanbase it's that anything new sucks and isn't real Star Trek XD It was said about TAS. It was said about TNG. It was said about DS9. It was said about Voyager etc etc
I amusing noted that while the fanbase largely came around on DS9 and TNG over the past 20 years (especially DS9 which I'd argue has rocketed to being the most acclaimed entry in the franchise in the past 10 years), it never seemed to be quite true of Voyager or Enterprise. Voyager, as if just to prove me wrong, has been getting something of a revival in some corners lately though. I see few people claiming the show was really great exactly, but there's been a shift where it's weaknesses get less talk than its high points. Harry Kim is reaching O'Brien levels of epic janitor status for some people, and Tom Paris' character has been seeing a lot of people coming around on him. So really I guess you have to wait 20 years to really assess if something was good Star Trek or not XD
Though I remain doubtful that Enterprise will ever see much turnaround. Enterprise was just bad. I'd even compare the first episode of SNW to the S1 ENT episode 'The Communicator' as a showcase of just how bad Enterprise was XD Even with Discovery or Picard and my not liking them, I can at least see why other people would. Enterprise in comparison has little to no redeeming qualities in my eyes save for a small handful of episodes/scenes. But maybe in another 5-6 years I'll be wrong again lol
Voyager had several problems as I could see it. First it came hot off the heels of DS9 which by the end was powerful story driven content with a long view to story telling. In appeared Voyager with its far more episodic style of storytelling. In many ways feeling like it was going right back to TNG series 1.
I also think that it never quite got it "right" either. There was something "missing" for many. Having heard that many of the geeky elements were shunned from the writing room and such I think perhaps one thing that might have been missing was maybe that chemistry between the actors and the writers and the content. A "spark" that was missing that very much was part of the preceding 3 series. Heck some of DS9's biggest scenes were improvised/adapted by the actors.
Enterprise I think started out really well and it was really going somewhere a lot of people wanted to see. And then they latched onto the wrong thing. Instead of focusing on the setup of so many species and the start of the Federation they went off on a wild "timeline" adventure which wasn't just 2 episdoes but several seasons. I think that threw a lot of the fans expectations and, in the end, a Temporal War is one of those things that only ends one of two ways.
1) Everything that happens is undone and it goes back to "normal" and the timeline continues so nothing "happened"
2) Everything changes and its used as a reboot/rebrand/restart point for the whole experience thereafter.
Both of which can be very unsatisfying to long term fans.
Even if Enterprise itself as a series is solid, I think they just make a very bad call on where to take things and that threw their fanbase. Since then ST has lumbered along. The TNG films have honestly never felt like "films" after First Contact, especially with their desire to constantly keep doing the Picard and Data relationship and Data himself. Which really was done and dusted in the series, done very well in First Contact and thereafter felt forced.
I definitely think the constant locking of the franchise in the TOS era has been a baffling choice. TOS nostalgia frankly, is already decrepit and old hat. It was decrepit and old hat when Discovery was announced IMO. Picard finally went forward, but then it promptly did nothing with the 'post-DS9' era anyone interested in that time period wanted to see. No follow ups to the Dominion, Bajor, the Cardassians, the state of the quadrant really. Not even a sort of TNG style continuation that picked up where we left off and carried on.
Picard is basically an extremely long Star Trek movie. One of the ones made after First Contact at that. Those movies aren't good. They're flawed unpolished gems at best.
Otherwise we have Prodigy and Lower Decks, which are the two entries in new Star Trek I'd consider to be very good and enjoyable, if only because they're not running on pure nostalgia fuel and are eager to actually go where we haven't been before, and are even capable of doing throw backs in that vein that feel a lot more authentic and endearing than anything in the ever-TOS universe.
True, the Founders haven't been mentioned at all and we've dealt with the Romulans and nothing with Cardassians or such. It would indeed be one failing of the Picard series. Then again the "front lines" were a long way from the core and Picard has mostly focused around the core and Romulan Neutral Zone. Understandable, but yes it would have been nice to touch base with DS9
I wonder if part of it is that Patrick wanted to work more with his old team not with the DS9 actors and season 1 was needed to generate income/attention enough to get funding together to actually afford and get interest from the other members to bring them back. Nestled in Picard is a bit of the light from TNG. So I'm kind of ok that they didn't touch on the DS9 - but I agree it would have been nice (esp since they've touched on a lot of Voyager stuff).
I do feel like Picard is the only series post DS9 that tries to follow in its style.
AduroT wrote: The biggest problem with Prodigy is how slow burn they are with airing more episodes.
Yeah, but it's good so XD
I look forward to the second half of the season. And we should be getting season 3 of Lower Decks right? If it improves on 2 like 2 improved on 1 we're in for a treat.
Just Tony wrote: Damn near two pages of "Let me correct your opinion."
That's just a vocal minority subset of culture in general and dakka specifically whether it's regarding a TV show that they like (whether genuinely or ideologically) or a wargaming product that they may or may not buy but must not allow opposition to.
Regardless, at least with SNW I don't feel like CBS/Paramount is trying to piss off long time fans except for a few seconds here and there. It's damning praise but praise nonetheless.
I have to say, after watching the first two episodes of SNW, I liked them quite a bit. Kinda weird to see everyone on board with a tragic past and/or future, but whatevs.
As to disco, I got fed up with it thoroughly after starting season 3 and gave up halfway. And as now it's not on Netflix anymore, I never bothered again.
I can't be quippy about it without geeking out over it more and more.
This could have been a season finale. Easily a contender for all-time top Trek episode lists. I truly doubt SNW will do better than this, at least this season.
Spoilers ahead, in the spoiler tags, where they belong:
Spoiler:
- Seems they front-loaded Uhura and La'an's respective tragic backstories the way they did in order to establish them for this episode, where they both contribute heavily. Both achieve certain milestones and emerge changed, but still have room to evolve.
- To a lesser extent, I like that Dr. M'benga thought to donate his own blood to save Number 1 and I feel like it's a small, developing payoff to the rapport they started developing in earnest last episode.
- This episode is directly and deliberately invoking Trek 'Submarine Battle' stories like Balance of Terror, Wrath of Khan, and especially Starship Down, along with that one subplot from Disaster where the injured Chief Engineer and the Bestest Girl are trapped in the cargo hold with something that's going to blow up.
- This episode is just barely the longest one so far, but notably 8 minutes longer than the previous one, which was remarkably short. Despite this the pacing is really tight, and I feel like there might have been scenes or ideas cut for time.
- The Gorn rock. Between Into Darkness and Lower Decks trying to be in on the joke about rubber lizard people, making them a legitimately dangerous, borderline unknown, scary adversary while refusing to show the monster was a bold choice and it worked really well here.
- Speaking of not showing the monster, on repeat viewings there's some interesting directorial choices with the cutaways, there are three instances in the episode that I caught where they opted to keep the focus on the bridge: when Pike calls the away team back, when they drop the photon torpedo (they do show the launch, but cut back to the bridge well before the explosion), and near the end where he calls in to the cargo bay to find out of Uhura and the chief engineer are all right. In all three cases we're left with the bridge crew, and Pike in particular, as they work things out in a moment of uncertainty, and Anson Mount is really shining in these moments.
- And speaking of that, Pike is really growing on me as a character. He's a little more worldly than TOS Kirk, a lot more personable than Picard, and his sense of personal responsibility for his crew reminds me of best version of Janeway we got once in a while. I love the way he coaches his crew, you really get the sense that he sees potential in everybody and is eager to help them realize it.
- I'm not entirely clear on whether La'an's plan with the Gorn really helped them in the long run or only really served to help her arc here and show off a bit of a dark side. It does stretch belief a bit, unless someone comes up saying Gorn have no concept of lying or something. I'm also assuming the book her brother gave her in the flashback and the pages the camera focuses on it is some kind of subconscious metaphor for a much more complicated concept that doesn't operate on the premise that the Gorn language is just a cypher for english!
- This is another episode that acknowledges the ongoing series Star Trek Discovery exists, for those of you that consider that a dealbreaker somehow.
- That blueshirt gave up his life to save his redshirt friend!
They were firing on all cylinders this week and I sincerely hope we see more stuff aspiring to this standard going forward.
Formosa wrote: 4 good episodes, colour me shocked, this series so far has been so much better than STD and "Picard"
I maintain what held back those two series was the serial nature, it meant a single misstep in a single story tainted the entire season. SNW'S more episodic format allows them to avoid that.
Formosa wrote: 4 good episodes, colour me shocked, this series so far has been so much better than STD and "Picard"
I maintain what held back those two series was the serial nature, it meant a single misstep in a single story tainted the entire season. SNW'S more episodic format allows them to avoid that.
That's... interesting. I find I enjoy 'serial' storytelling much more interesting than episodic, and I can't think of a series that was 'tainted' by even several bad episodes let alone a 'single misstep.' I can't think of any (even my favorites) where the writers didn't break out the Idiot Ball at some point.
TBF I don't think they really could have done Picard outside of a serial show. It's just that it wasn't very good.
An episodic series does allow for a wider variety of storytelling and you can bury the worse episodes with the better ones (DS9 for example) but it's not automatically the better choice.
If the writers can mix serial with episodic in broad story arcs then it can work both ways (again DS9).
Formosa wrote: 4 good episodes, colour me shocked, this series so far has been so much better than STD and "Picard"
I maintain what held back those two series was the serial nature, it meant a single misstep in a single story tainted the entire season. SNW'S more episodic format allows them to avoid that.
That's... interesting. I find I enjoy 'serial' storytelling much more interesting than episodic, and I can't think of a series that was 'tainted' by even several bad episodes let alone a 'single misstep.' I can't think of any (even my favorites) where the writers didn't break out the Idiot Ball at some point.
I find the issue isn't serial vs non-serial but well-thought-out vs who fething cares pew pew lasers are what the people want! Discovery presumed that no one would give a gak about the details and like a lot of modern film hoped to blitz through a story so fast no one had time to really notice how bad that story was. Picard had the same problem IMO, just with better actors on the whole and a lot of groundwork someone did to arrange for a good story that was properly tossed once filming actually began. There's nothing wrong with serial, episodic, or mixed format programming and that's not really the issue I think that sparks arguments over Disco or Picard's quality
The problem that plagued Discovery and Picard is that they assumed the audience would accept anything so long as they got to see starships and a speech, even things that make no sense or are forced beyond SOD because there's a laser show we need to get to and who cares about nuance. Even the stupid crap that was clearly the effects or CGI departments creating bullet points for their resumes that didn't need to happen and made the story more convoluted rather than less. SNW has basically beaten them out by being just a modicum more well put together. It's really just not that hard to not suck. Maybe you won't get any awards but the most straightforward explanation really is that the showrunners were lazy/disinterested/assumed their audience wouldn't care about X or Y so long as Z was flashy.
To be as bluntat as I can, Discovery treats scifi like low budget porn. Except the thing about porn is that it's porn. No one gave a gak about it having a story in the first place.
Formosa wrote: 4 good episodes, colour me shocked, this series so far has been so much better than STD and "Picard"
I maintain what held back those two series was the serial nature, it meant a single misstep in a single story tainted the entire season. SNW'S more episodic format allows them to avoid that.
Found that very true with Disco series 3 I really enjoyed a majority of it, even eagerly anticipating new episodes. However the finale was just an absolute mess and marred the whole series for me. When the whole Paramount+/Netflix fiasco unrolled I was initially disappointed but having come off such a low point from the series before I've found I'm not bothered at all.
Talk about Orville in the Star Trek thread instead of dredging up its individual one from the depths? There’s going to be back and forth comparisons galore so might as well condense them…
But yeah, damn, that season premiere. One part showing off their apparently improved special effects budget and new cgi assets, and five parts ten ton emotion weight. This episode is Heavy and it’s going to take some processing.
When it first came out I was really hesitant to watch it mostly because I'm not the biggest fan of Seth MacFarlane and I thought it was going to be a really bad parody of ST. But I watched it anyway and it really blew me away with how well it came together, then it just got better as time went on.
AduroT wrote: Talk about Orville in the Star Trek thread instead of dredging up its individual one from the depths? There’s going to be back and forth comparisons galore so might as well condense them…
But yeah, damn, that season premiere. One part showing off their apparently improved special effects budget and new cgi assets, and five parts ten ton emotion weight. This episode is Heavy and it’s going to take some processing.
Holy gak, yeah, that was rough. I think it was absolutely great, and I love how they didn't go for the "moral highground" in anything. It is a tough issue, and they treat it as if it is.
I would say it surprises in a "funny" show, but... not really, not anymore.
I'm just going to say that I did NOT enjoy the 1st episode of Orville season 3. As someone who has both struggled with suicidal thoughts my entire life and known quite a few people who have died that way... I really just didn't think that the depiction here did it any justice.
Weirdly, it's not even that such things CAN'T be depicted well on screen. Though it's a very different show, "House" had probably the very best episode on the subject, ranging through all the different emotions and trying, futilely, to make sense of it all... This, by comparison, just felt forced and flat and the stakes never felt very high because... I guess I just never actually believed that it would "stick".
(Plus I couldn't STAND the new crew member, who I am now naming "Little Blonde Racist" forevermore.)
I don't know. It's possible that this format was just never going to work for me in terms of a frank discussion of this particular subject.
I've used this analogy before, but if one were to make a grim and depressing reboot of the care-bears then, even if it was well done, who exactly would be the audience for it? Sure, you would probably get a few people tuning in for morbid curiosity... but can you really expect to be "moved" or whatever by that style of show?
Same here. Yes, the Orville is not JUST a comedy show, but even the other episodes that have dealt with serious issues have had plenty of jokes and character interactions to make the issues more palatable. I didn't get any of that here.
Instead of getting a fun, philosophical romp through space I was given a heavy handed attempt to be dramatic about a subject that many people have a difficult time even processing. My wife, who is still processing the aftermaths of a family suicide, could barely even watch the thing. Even when the whole thing was fixed it didn't do anything to repair the good will that was squandered.
We are going to tune in to the next episode, as we are long time fans, but if it's like this then I am going to turn it off and find something else.
These are basically a lot of lore and background books which focus heavily on the ships from all the core series of Original, TNG, DS9, Voyager, Discovery and some of the "Kelvin" Timeline. There's also Alien ships and a bunch of other stuff.
And the Eaglemoss ship books they put out a few years ago with alot of the art they commissioned for their ship releases. Thanks for the link.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Regarding this week's episode, I suppose Freaky Friday beats Spock's brain. For a filler bottle episode (admittedly with a few scenes of effect$), it was ok. I liked the new aliens.
This is the first episode of the Orville I've ever seen (didn't realize it's on Disney+ now) and while I can't say I especially liked it, knowing what I know about the show I appreciate that they're trying to handle heavier themes. There's definitely moments in there I think were at least, at some stage in the script writing phase, supposed to be funny, but the actors playing them dead serious gave the episode more gravity than I think it otherwise would have had - and that's to its benefit.
Spoiler:
We've seen suicide covered in Star Trek before, but I don't think examined to this extent, and I at least appreciate that they're trying to go there. It's an ambitious choice, especially for the premier episode of the revamped show.
I did not like the ending. Maybe they thought this would be the most effective way to have this story because if there ever was a time to kill of a main cast member it would be the first or last episode of a season, so I think I understand why they did it this way.
I suspect the blond racist one will be making recurring appearances in the show, learning to overcome her trauma and recognize Isac as a person. I also think its really convenient that someone with a once-in-a-generation talent for quantum whatsit is also serving on this ship, is the Orville itself actually an important vessel?
Strange New Worlds episode 5 was a Hijinx, episode, to quote a character from the show. Its generally humourous and a bit of a tonal whiplash from the previous one, but that's exactly what people were saying would be a benefit of an episodic program and for the most part it works.
Spoiler:
I was half expecting the Enterprise to be completely fixed this episode following the events of the previous one, but instead its there, in spacedock, getting repaired, explicitly because of that battle. I was pleasantly surprised by that and it's always been something I wanted to see Voyager do: no need to go full serialization but you can have the captain's log say 'XYZ are being repaired because of N event from last episode' and its great continuity without intruding on the main story.
The A plot is a freaky-friday body swap plot where Spock and T'pring try to work out some of their relationship tension by doing a different, more complicated vulcany mind meld thing, it goes wrong, and they end up stuck in one another's body. But oh no, Spock has to help with a diplomatic thing, and T'pring is a Vulcan cop and the suspect is here on the station!
I really appreciated the moments where they'd discuss or subvert the tropes of these kinds of plots. With the two of them initially trying to keep it under wraps by posing as each other when Pike comes to visit, but immediately give up the ghost when it becomes clear he's going to drag one off and make it too complicated. Pike, in turn, rolls with it, and each of them enlist allies in this without lying to them, which I liked.
That said, I actually enjoyed the B plot more: the doctor lets slip that the crew think Una and La'an are lethally boring and anti-fun, just because they would rather stay on the ship and get work done during shore leave. To prove them wrong, they discover the fabled 'Enterprise Bingo' (which seems more like a list than actual bingo?) and get up to mischief trying to marathon it. Highlights include misusing the transporter to re-flavour gum, and shouting different destinations in the turbolift at the same time to see who the computer likes more.
Apparently Crewman Kyle, the transporter chief who almost died last episode is some kind of tyrant who terrorizes ensigns that get sent down to work for him?
In contrast to the previous episode, and more in keeping with the initial three, this is definitely more of an original take on a TOS style story (in this case, a jokey one with lower stakes like trouble with tribbles or in the cards) that tries to be that type of episode without borrowing the elements from it overmuch.
...Excluding of course, the cheesy fight song right at the start.
I find it funny that the Orville seems to be straining to put out the darkest, most serious episode it can, while SNW is equally straining to be silly.
After reading so much of the positive buzz surrounding SNW I decided to give it a shot. Wow, what a show! I'm only 2 episodes in but I'm shocked at just how actually good it is. It genuinely feels like Trek. I especially like Pike, Spock, and Uhura.
Orville: Little kinder to religion than they usually are. They still look down on it, but then go on to it being a real phenomenon that they’re perceiving thru the lens of their beliefs.
Spoiler:
So Orville’s version of the Borg? They said it was tech organic stuff, just more of a melding than cyborging, but it was definitely assimilation. I’m kind of sad the station turned out to be evil because of just How evil that thing looked. So so very stereotypically evil I wanted it to be a don’t judge a book by its cover deal.
Strange New Worlds: I guess I’ll spoiler this still…
Spoiler:
Although I’m not sure why I need to bother because this story is So predictable. You just immediately know where it’s going. I will say I was expecting them to be doing the SG1 story where they would have taken those nano implants from the super smart kid and distributed to the population, but no they went worse with the torture chair. Shame we didn’t get to hear Spock’s opinion on it though given his famous stance on the needs of the many.
The most recent episode of SNW was... okay. I didn't love it, but it wasn't terrible.
Spoiler:
I found the whole thing a little convoluted to be honest, especially the transporter shenanigans with the kid. Had a hard time working out what exactly happened there. I also never really got a good sense of just what exactly the kid was doing for the rest of the planet that necessitated... whatever was happening to him in the chair.
I did love everything with the Doctor in this episode though, seeing his daughter dematerialize in mid-sentence like that was so sad.
creeping-deth87 wrote: The most recent episode of SNW was... okay. I didn't love it, but it wasn't terrible.
Spoiler:
I found the whole thing a little convoluted to be honest, especially the transporter shenanigans with the kid. Had a hard time working out what exactly happened there. I also never really got a good sense of just what exactly the kid was doing for the rest of the planet that necessitated... whatever was happening to him in the chair.
I did love everything with the Doctor in this episode though, seeing his daughter dematerialize in mid-sentence like that was so sad.
I just assumed the kid was needed to keep the astronomicon working
The impression I got was the surface of the planet was uninhabitable, rivers of lava and stuff, so they lived in the floating cloud city utopia above it. The whole thing was kept running by a super advanced computer system that absolutely required the brain of a child for some of its hardware mapping less it fail and everything literally falls out of the sky.
which begs the question why they didn't just move to another planet? I would have happily accepted the idea that they suffered from massive tech loss if they didn't present us with super advanced tech that ended disease as a matter of course.
I have to assume the advanced medical tech is also a product of the super computer, and it makes their whole utopia possible and the immediate falling out of the sky is just the most urgent of effects for not maintaining the child torture chair. The whole point is to contrive the scenario of would you make one child suffer if it meant no one else ever had to, and I can accept their setup at face value because it’s not Too far fetched and they offer a few different viewpoints on it.
Yeah, it feels like they're an advanced civilization channeling a bit of the 40k Admech in that they're knowledgeable enough to operate it but not to improve/rebuild it and their other technology that they do understand, while apparently more advanced that the Federation at times, lags behind it. Plus they seem to be focused almost exclusively on non-military terrestrial applications given their markedly inferior ships.
AduroT wrote: I have to assume the advanced medical tech is also a product of the super computer, and it makes their whole utopia possible and the immediate falling out of the sky is just the most urgent of effects for not maintaining the child torture chair. The whole point is to contrive the scenario of would you make one child suffer if it meant no one else ever had to, and I can accept their setup at face value because it’s not Too far fetched and they offer a few different viewpoints on it.
except that it ended with the Doctor being walked through treatment of a medical condition.
Apparently that episode was based on (or is largely transposed from) some unused Roddenberry era script (possibly TNG, but more likely TOS or TAS) and it sure feels like it.
I'm not a huge TAS fan but these are fascinating labors of love by fans! They clearly chose the finest examples of their respective series as inspiration.
Decided to break down and get a P+ account, mainly because I missed watching the older shows.
Started with SNW. Episode one was....well it was something.
For starters: Let's do the gripes
Spoiler:
Starfleet would not send out a ship with only three crew members. That's absolute insanity and it was really a major sticking point for me throughout the episode.
Spoiler:
More Nonsense from STD. I really, really hate that dumpster fire of a show and I wish like hell they'd move on from it. I will die on this hill and as far as I am concerned it never existed in my personal love of the franchise.
Spoiler:
The actor playing Spock, is really phoning it in. Badly. I am not super impressed with his performances thus far.
Spoiler:
Speaking of Spock, why would you take him with you on a mission when you know there is a huge chance of something happening that will endanger said mission because of how the gene therapy interacts with him. God it just screams incompetent and dangerous. Take a junior science officer and move on.
Spoiler:
another Singh character, can we just not. I really hope she has no relation to Khan and it's just a fun little easteregg with her name. But I can't help but think that she's going to be the betrayer or some junk.
Spoiler:
Still too much joking around, sarcasm and unprofessional behavior from nearly the entire crew. Lots of silly "oh no! I didn't sedate the alien enough he escaped!" nonsense. I really hope the show knocks that off and soon."
Now, onto what I liked.
Spoiler:
Ortegas is an interesting character. I look forward to seeing her character developed over the course of the series.
Spoiler:
Dr. M'Benga has a lot of promise. For me, the doctor role within ST shows is really important. If I don't like the doctor, I usually end up not enjoying the show as much. I look forward to seeing what they do with him.
Spoiler:
Celia Gooding is doing a great job as Nyota. Big shoes to fill, but I liked what little we got to see of her in the episode. I especially enjoyed her talking with the alien about his homeworld to help clam him. I really liked that bit, it really reminded me of "old" Trek in that the character was competent enough to do her mission homework, which is something I felt a lot of Discovery episodes flat out ignored.
Spoiler:
Seeing the Aenar beam on was great. Sadly, Enterprise was doing a fantastic job with the Aenar and the Andorians. I hope they treat them well.
Overall, I wasn't exactly impressed with the episode, using modern political talking points to get ideas across like a blunt mace is par the course for much of entertainment these days. It was better done in this episode than a lot of other shows, but I digress...but I wasn't as put off as I was at the end of S1 Discovery either. So I remain skeptical as to how this show will go. We shall see what the rest of the episodes do.
Finished up episode two today. It was a lot better in my opinion than the first episode. Thoughts as follows...
Spoiler:
They are leaning way too hard into this "I saw my death" stuff. It's brought up like 10 times per half hour and I'm just not feeling it. There has to be more to Pike than "I'ma die someday saving some kids."
Spoiler:
There is still a lot of unprofessionalism running around in this show. Almost no one is using the Chain of Command, no formal usage or Sir or Ma'am when speaking to a superior officer and there seems to be a lot of fraternizing between the crew (which isn't to say necessarily a bad thing, but it is unorthodox.).
Spoiler:
So far we've seen way more of Nurse Chapel than of Dr. M'Benga. I really can't get behind her characters super in your face type personality, and they seem to be treating her more like a doctor than a nurse. Something seems off, but I've yet to see enough of the show and of her character to figure out what it actually is. The actress is doing a good job, but I feel the writing is suffering a bit there. I'll give her some more time to bake and see what happens.
Spoiler:
Seriously, I wasn't joking when I said the Doctors for each show make or break the experience for me. I really hope M'Benga gets more screen time soon. I'd like to see what he can bring to the crew.
Spoiler:
La'an isn't doing it for me. And I finally figure out why. She's the female equivalent of Malcom Reed, slightly more likeable but basically bland. I'd even liken her to Season 1-2 of Lt. Worf, basically just their to be broody, overly aggressive and angry all the time." I see her as probably being at the bottom of the list in terms of characters I like in this show."
Spoiler:
Kirk's Dad is...weird. So far I can't figure out where they are going to go with this, but I'm interested.
Spoiler:
Erica Ortegas is a weird character. I like her, and I like the position they've put her in. But she really hasn't done much yet, which I know, I know we're only two episodes in give it time. But I can't help but feel like she's going to end up suffering from the Ensign Kim syndrome. I hope not. One gripe I have with her is that she is one of the worst at the whole chain of command thing. I don't think I've seen her use formal language with superiors officers once yet.
Spoiler:
Hemmer is great. I love that he's both serious and able to relax a bit. Really liking the choice of an Aenar character. Hoping that SNW can continue to make excellent work with the Andorians and the Aenar as Enterprise was.
Spoiler:
Celia Gooding is just knocking it out of the park as Nyota. Easily she and Anson are the two best actors in the show, no contest. One thing I am a bit put off by though is that her handling of the Music puzzle was a bit too rushed, I know it's an abridged runtime, but I felt they could have taken a bit more time to let her figure it all out.
Spoiler:
This Spock rendition is just awful. I still can't explain it, but I loath that actor something fierce.
Overall I liked the episode. I felt it was a big step in the right direction in terms of getting back to the roots of exploration and adventure that ST is known for. Minor gripes aside I am still looking forward to Episode 3, which is a good thing!
LordofHats wrote: He's also the only relation (far as I know) who was not randomly invented in the past few years.
Sam appears once in TOS and is referenced by Kirk in The Undiscovered Country if I'm remembering right?
Sam appears as a corpse played by William Shatner with a bad moustache in TOS, I don't recall him being referred to in Undiscovered Country, but its been a while since I've seen it.
As for the other relations I'm not sure the full extent you mean - T'Pring's from TOS but some people think she's new, some people don't know Kirk had a brother, I've seen pushback over M'Benga having a daughter at all even though he appeared in all of two episodes in TOS and even had a great grand-daughter in a beta canon Shatnerverse novel. La'an and Michael are the really egregious additions, and I give the former a pass because I like how they've handled it so far, and the latter because I had four seasons to get over it and she's like a thousand years removed from these events, being her own actual character almost completely removed from the idea of being Spock's adopted sister.
Sam is only shown in ONE TOS episode - where he is dead (killed by an alien flapjack) and played by William Shatner in a bad moustache. He is identified as JTK's brother, though.
Thought Orville this week was mediocre, I more enjoyed Strange New Worlds. It’s really weird how the shows have so switched tones. Orville is all serious while Star Trek gets into hijinks.
I actually genuinely enjoyed todays episode with only a few minor quibbles like the use of modern music and Wheedon-speak. It's almost as if the heavy handed in your face dystopian nightmare of the prior three seasons I watched (STD 1+2, PIC1) didn't need to be the way they were. Without going into spoilers, the episode antagonist is definitely my favorite nutrek villain and was actually good and not just a backhanded compliment due to the overall crappyiness of previous ones.
Episode 3 was good. One thing however really, really upset me.
Spoiler:
....You cannot indefinitely store patterns in transporter systems with no degradation or pattern loss. We literally hear this DIRECT from fething SCOTTY himself in Relics after his strategy saved himself, but failed to save Franklin. I find it hard to believe that the Starfleet of this era doesn't have Stasis fields which would be a much better option for his daughter, especially considering they had them in Enterprise for Christ sake....
Also, does it bother anyone else how big crew quarters are on the Enterprise? This is another piece of well established cannon that crew quarters were quite cramped during that era.
chromedog wrote: Sam is only shown in ONE TOS episode - where he is dead (killed by an alien flapjack) and played by William Shatner in a bad moustache. He is identified as JTK's brother, though.
He's mentioned earlier on in TOS - him and his family where there to see James T off on the 5-year voyage.
Togusa wrote: Also, does it bother anyone else how big crew quarters are on the Enterprise? This is another piece of well established cannon that crew quarters were quite cramped during that era.
A little bit - there's speculation that there's less crew on-board than during Kirk's time (Starfleet still rebuilding from the Klingon war, etc.). EDIT: Memory Alpha has it as ~200 in the 2250s (April/Pike), going up to ~400 in the 2260s (Kirk).
Togusa wrote: Episode 3 was good. One thing however really, really upset me.
Spoiler:
Perhaps medical transporters are 'special', or it was modified? He seemed to be acting alone, without Starfleet, and might have struggled trying to hide a stasis pod.
So, ep. 7:
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Starfleet really need to work on their ID checking, and harden their starships! (Has every series now had a hijack episode?)
Togusa wrote: Also, does it bother anyone else how big crew quarters are on the Enterprise? This is another piece of well established cannon that crew quarters were quite cramped during that era.
A little bit - there's speculation that there's less crew on-board than during Kirk's time (Starfleet still rebuilding from the Klingon war, etc.).
EDIT: Memory Alpha has it as ~200 in the 2250s (April/Pike), going up to ~400 in the 2260s (Kirk).
Spoiler:
Perhaps medical transporters are 'special', or it was modified? He seemed to be acting alone, without Starfleet, and might have struggled trying to hide a stasis pod.
The first one I can accept.
But the second I cannot. It doesn't matter if it's a medical transporter. We have cannon explanation that this was a huge problem that Scotty had to solve in order to keep himself and Franklin alive inside the Transporter system of the USS Jenolan. Also, we know for a fact that Medical Stasis exists during this time period as they had it on the NX-01 in 2151. Kirk takes command of the Constitution Class Enterprise in 2266, over 115 years after the maiden voyage of the NX-01, a further ten years after SNWs. There literally is no reason not to just put his daughter into Medical Stasis and deal with that storyline the same way they undoubtabley will deal with it as the season goes on. This really bugs me from a lore perspective because we have an established, and far safer alternative that is proven to work, being superseded by a method that isn't even possible at this point in the timeline and won't be for a further 90 years. To compound this, it doesn't even need to happen. It's just bizarrely there for some reason, most likely because the writers don't know the history of the show they're writing for, which is a big problem in hollywood these days.
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Episode 5, Vulcan Freaky Friday...no thanks. Rest of the episode was good though. Still cannot get behind Nurse Chapel as a character.
He doesn’t store the daughter in it 24/7 though. He brings her out periodically. You can’t store people in there forever, but there is a certain timeframe where you can before degradation.
Togusa wrote: We have cannon explanation that this was a huge problem that Scotty had to solve in order to keep himself and Franklin alive inside the Transporter system of the USS Jenolan.
At no point has artillery been used to explain this.
AduroT wrote: He doesn’t store the daughter in it 24/7 though. He brings her out periodically. You can’t store people in there forever, but there is a certain timeframe where you can before degradation.
You would think long term transporter freezer burn would be a thing too but I guess not!
Togusa wrote: We have cannon explanation that this was a huge problem that Scotty had to solve in order to keep himself and Franklin alive inside the Transporter system of the USS Jenolan.
At no point has artillery been used to explain this.
Togusa wrote: We have cannon explanation that this was a huge problem that Scotty had to solve in order to keep himself and Franklin alive inside the Transporter system of the USS Jenolan.
At no point has artillery been used to explain this.
More things should be explained with artillery. More 1812 overtures please.
Togusa wrote: We have cannon explanation that this was a huge problem that Scotty had to solve in order to keep himself and Franklin alive inside the Transporter system of the USS Jenolan.
At no point has artillery been used to explain this.
Ahtman wrote: Overall I am enjoying SNW my only concern is that they will focus to much on Spock. I like Spock but he isn't the center of the ST universe.
They've been trying to make him the center lately by cramming him everywhere, even if he doesn't belong. I really would hope that the other cast members get more time to grow. I've just finished episode 5 and I'm really not super happy with where some of the characters are, compared to others.
It's the same issue the Abrams films suffered from. Where McCoy hardly appears as more than a footnote; Kirk is just being childish the entire time* and Spock is the glorious best of the entire bridge crew.
* and seems to only be in the positions he's in because other people around him keep "seeing his potential" and putting him in key roles. Rather than him actually doing things.
Welp, ain’t even gonna try and discuss this episode because of the politics ban on Dakka…
Strange New Worlds:
Spoiler:
Fun episode, but I don’t really care for this sudden dues ex ending to the daughter storyline. Just kind of springs up out of nowhere. The years in seconds thing is also kind of a cop out for instant gratification.
I'm a big fan of The Orville but, without going into detail, that was a pretty clumsy, heavy handed, allegory which I think wasn't really necessary for the story they were trying to tell.
Usually the writing is a bit better than this.
That's not to say it was a bad episode, I just think including "real world" events in Sci-Fi is better when it's subtle and more, well, allegorical....
But not bad, I just think earlier episodes in the first and second season pulled this off in a much more nuanced way.
Eh, I don’t think it was Too heavy handed. There were a lot of details and incidents they could have easily added to drive the point further home. As it was they largely went with one really broad stroke.
I haven't seen the latest Orville: New Horizons yet, but I was disappointed with Mortality Paradox. (Good name for a band composed of Orville fans). They literally walked through the episode before being patronised by a god-like being. A textbook example of the worst sci-fi tv.
Orville is better when it is slightly subverting Star Trek, but here it seemed to just be copying it.
MarkNorfolk wrote: I haven't seen the latest Orville: New Horizons yet, but I was disappointed with Mortality Paradox. (Good name for a band composed of Orville fans). They literally walked through the episode before being patronised by a god-like being. A textbook example of the worst sci-fi tv.
Orville is better when it is slightly subverting Star Trek, but here it seemed to just be copying it.
Yeah, I thought that one was a really mediocre episode. Didn’t really grow the characters or the setting that much. Just a bunch of really random stuff and then the monologue.
I have noticed that Brannon Braga seems to be writing a lot of the more recent episodes? That's not a bad thing, but I feel Season 3 has lost a lot of what made The Orville unique and it does seem to be just turning into Star Trek: The Orville.
I’m disappointed its losing a lot of its humor. I don’t need it to be constantly silly goofy, but it’s swung too far the other way with hardly any jokes per episode. My overall opinion of the show is diminishing this season.
A weird episode. Some good acting but I think resolving one of the Tragic Starfleet Character Backstory MotivationsTM in the first couple of episodes was a mistake. Imagine if Worf had worked out his daddy issues completely before the fugitive klingons attempted to hijack the Enterprise.
This episode was very fun - the actors are all having fun hamming it up (even the ones that weren't brainwashed by a god nebula) and it was a good twist on the 'weird planet with a specific earth theme' or 'holodeck run amuck' episodes from the TOS and TNG eras, respectively. And then they had to spoil it all with an ending that hit me right in the kidneys.
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This seems like such a waste after having M'Benga get vital information to research this cure in the previous episode.
I can only conclude that there's going to be some continuation of this plot thread, somehow. I haven't heard anything about Babs Olusanmokun leaving the show and don't really see any reason to need to resolve this aspect of the character just yet.
Fun observations:
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I don't know if they did a slow pan over that book previously, but this is the first time I noticed the book Dr. M'Benga reads to his daughter is written by Benny Russell!
Ortegas being upset over Una not calling her was the biggest, meatiest bit of character development she's had all season and it was a different persona occupying her body of which all memory was erased at the end of the episode.
I was initially surprised to see Bruce Horak was so brilliantly physical in his comedy this episode - which prompted me to look him up and discover he's a stage actor who was widely celebrated for his role in Evil Dead the Musical. The more you know.
Until otherwise noted, Anson Mount can do no wrong here. Like the rest of the cast he's clearly having a blast hamming it up as a snivelling, scheming coward.
Did Number 1 murder three redshirts (excuse me, Crimson Guards) with a bow and arrow? Everyone woke up after the event with no memory of it happening, are they back alive? Are there just three dead red shirts in a hallway somewhere?
And the doctor clearly didn't give a feth about that happening literally in front of him either, lol. I was expecting him to adminster some basic first aid before leaving but nope.
No one walks off a lightsaber to the chest, they walk off lightsabers to the stomach, which like the shoulder is another place with nothing important and results in harmless flesh wounds. You only die if you get hit in the center of the chest, where your heart is located.
AduroT wrote: No one walks off a lightsaber to the chest, they walk off lightsabers to the stomach, which like the shoulder is another place with nothing important and results in harmless flesh wounds. You only die if you get hit in the center of the chest, where your heart is located.
Alas, if only someone had told Qui Gon of this important fact then the fate of the galaxy would have been much different! Not that M'Benga would have cared though...
Dour. They do add some more humor into the episode in a few spots, and spend a weird amount of time mentioning the long dead race and archaeological sub sub plot for something that didn’t seem to really have any effect on the main story or cast. Still, it was really down trodden for most of the episode. Ends on a higher point though, but that’s likely to be a very political opinion. Bonus points for getting to hear Bortus sing after previous episode/s talk about it.
Strange New Worlds:
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Gorn! I was really curious what they’d do with them with the enhanced effects budget and technology vs TOS so I really hope we get to see them this time! (finger on the monkey paw closes) Dear sweet jesus this is horrifying please put it back! They are Really building up the capabilities of these things. Invisible to scanners and telepaths, super lethal+ spit, “we’re lucky these are babies, one adult and we wouldn’t stand a chance”. I’m curious to see how the Gorn stuff resolves in the end that they’re not a such a giant threat in later series. When they introduced two new characters in the beginning I don’t recall seeing before I had a bunch they were Gorn food. Hemmer though? They get massive negative bonus points for killing him off. He was really interesting as a character.
Gorn! I was really curious what they’d do with them with the enhanced effects budget and technology vs TOS so I really hope we get to see them this time! (finger on the monkey paw closes) Dear sweet jesus this is horrifying please put it back! They are Really building up the capabilities of these things. Invisible to scanners and telepaths, super lethal+ spit, “we’re lucky these are babies, one adult and we wouldn’t stand a chance”. I’m curious to see how the Gorn stuff resolves in the end that they’re not a such a giant threat in later series. When they introduced two new characters in the beginning I don’t recall seeing before I had a bunch they were Gorn food. Hemmer though? They get massive negative bonus points for killing him off. He was really interesting as a character.
Agreed. I think that character was the most interesting and would have been my last choice to redshirt. I'm also not a fan of the STD'ing of Kirk in this either..
Spoiler:
turning him into an emotional spoiled brat who loses his cool and panics at the drop of a hat.
AduroT wrote: To be fair, we’ve really seen very little of Kirk, and if there was a time to suddenly panic, it was that.
I wouldn't call that first part a defense since this is probably the most screen time he's gotten and he was about as calm and collected of a starfleet officer as a TNG insane or delirious patient extra. Also, life and death is the bread and butter of Starfleet experience in episodes. I could have understood a single short outburst cut short by a stern look from Pike but not multiple. YMMV. Regardless, the indignity of that pales in comparison to
Spoiler:
killing the most interesting (IMO) new character in SNW and the only truly alien one with a gorn ejaculation. Seriously.
That's literally 80's pron parody plot quality combined with very poor decision making. Were they trying to save money on makeup because they needed the miniscule budget for Spock's ears and Pike's pompadour?
Personally, I didn't like them turning the Gorn into not-Xenomorphs from Aliens. Complete with the chestbursting. How do we go from these agile apex predators into the big slow lizard man that Captain Kirk fights in "Arena"? I get that the look can obviously be improved from the guy in the rubber suit in TOS, but they didn't need to fundamentally change how they behave. Just create a new alien race that behaves that way(it's a big galaxy after all) instead of changing an existing one. Almost as bad as the Klingon changes in Discovery.
Yeah, I'd have preferred if they had kept them something remotely similar but unfortunately the ENT episode with them and the 2009 video game tie in have "reshaped" the monster of the week. I suspect they just wanted to make sure it tied into yet another Tragic Starfleet BackstoryTM that they wanted to hurry up and resolve (two in a row now). The funny thing is that I was actually liking the character that walked off in spite of the backstory and lineage that really turned me off initially.
Spoiler:
Quick edit... just to be clear.. I'm not wanting a return to pure giant rubber suit gorn specifically though I wonder if the alien protecting the girl was a quality nod to that now that I'm typing. Maybe some sort of combo of live action augmented with special effects instead like motion capture with a real stunt person then CGI'ed over instead or augmented. I did like the alien protector though. That's the kind of alien that I was hoping the bigger streaming budget would allow them to add to the crew but instead they kill off the only alien whose transformation is more extensive than five minute LOTR fan cosplay.
And just like that, Kurtzman came in and jizzed all over the show. The first five episodes were great, minor gripes aside. These last three have been awful.
Gert wrote: Holy gak that was a heavy Orville episode. That being said, I think it would do a lot of people a lot of good to watch it.
I liked it quite a bit, and I remember I liked the "original" one a lot too.
As to SNW... hm. I mean, it was alright, but it was basically Alien on Star Trek, which I don't think I really like. Also the engineer was one of the highlights of the series, and they lose him and la'an both... hm.
That said, I personally like SNW. An episodic series has understandably their highs and lows, but at the very least you're not grid locked to a single narrative, which you might hate.
I actually really liked this week's episode of SNW, but I completely understand why it's so off putting to some of the fans. Yes, it's highly derivative of Alien. You can't really get the sort of diplomatic/scientific resolution that a lot of Trek dilemmas end up getting solved by, but that's sorta why I really dug it. I wouldn't want episodes like this to be the norm by any means, but every now and then it's fun to see the crew deal with something so alien (ha!) that they can't reverse shield polarity their way out of a crisis. I'm really sad about who they axed at the end though, I really wanted to get to know him better.
Personally, I didn't like them turning the Gorn into not-Xenomorphs from Aliens. Complete with the chestbursting. How do we go from these agile apex predators into the big slow lizard man that Captain Kirk fights in "Arena"? I get that the look can obviously be improved from the guy in the rubber suit in TOS, but they didn't need to fundamentally change how they behave. Just create a new alien race that behaves that way(it's a big galaxy after all) instead of changing an existing one. Almost as bad as the Klingon changes in Discovery.
I feel like I'm beating up on TOS a lot when I say this, but it's important to understand that it is a 1960s TV show and its ability to depict alien monsters was constrained by certain factors.
That said...
Spoiler:
the rubber suit Gorn is no less an apex predator within the confines of that era and budget. For all we joke about its lumbering around, it nearly kills Kirk immediately in close combat, and it shrugs off having multiple rocks (very real rocks in the context of that story) smashed over its head with minimal effect.
Overall I felt this episode was fine. I like the premise, I like the execution, but as others have said, there are a few distinct, really glaring problems:
Spoiler:
Why kill Hemmer? Maybe Bruce Horak wanted to leave the show? Maybe the makeup and the hours was a problem? Maybe he got another offer he couldn't pass up? Maybe it was always the plan to have Uhura's mentor die but leave her with parting words that inspire her? I don't know why, but I strongly feel they undercut themselves by killing off such a likeable character so early on.
Why kill Hemmer that way? Nevermind them feeling the need to kill him off at all instead of hedge their bets and have him go away for an extended leave like they did with La'an - the episode presents multiple opportunities to kill him off that would work better thematically or without falling back on the reproduction through spit thing: The spit could have just been acid, he could have had to grab the Gorn and hold it under that cold mist, he could have shocked the audience by throwing himself into harms way to protect No-Longer-Ensign Duke; and all of these could have presented him with an opportunity to, in his final moments clinging to life, tell Uhura the exact same thing about how she can be brave and open up more.
La'an leaving the ship - I'm not sure why they felt the need to do this here, and while my gut instinct is to point to Discovery's annoying tendency to flip a coin when an actor leaves the show to decide whether they're allowed to come back at a later date or die horribly in a fire, SNW has racked up too many good boy points with me so I'm willing to hope that this is going to have some kind of payoff early on in season 2.
Beyond that...
The episode is otherwise fine, well shot and directed, excellent use of pre-existing sets, frequently creepy. But really only ever gets up to 'fine' - this is Perez' second writing credit on the show and while I personally didn't mind that his previous episode was a little derivative, I do mind it here.
I've seen some complaining about the Gorn being invisible to scanners, this is actually in keeping with Enterprise, of all things.
This is the first time we've seen Sam Kirk crack under pressure, but then again it's also the first time we've really seen him under pressure. The things he says to Spock aren't really out of line from what we'd see Bones say to him, but they hit different to a modern audience. Notably, Dr. Pulaski spoke to Data much the same way in TNG, and people hated her for it. I can't tell if they were trying for a Bones/Spock rapport here or if they're trying to lay the groundwork for why Sam is out of Starfleet entirely by the time Jim is captaining the Enterprise.
The Peregrine is weirdly in keeping with TOS' use of the Enterprise model to represent different ships: it's very clearly a Constitution with very few minor tweaks and they even call attention to that in the dialogue. I'm curious what this says about TOS era starship design and would like to know more please.
We had a Star Wars alien making a guest role in Star Trek, RIP Buckley.
Been catching up on SNWs, and while I'm not as negative as some, I do agree the show has seen a significant downturn since the 4th episode. I can't even really put words together that feel like a good explanation for why.
It's just gotten kind of humdrum. There's some good. Some bad. Nothing that really stands out honestly. It's all just... meh.
Haven't seen episode 9 just yet. Apparently that one goes for a few doozies.
EDIT:
And wow was that an understatement. I can see why there's so much love/hate for it. It one of the most well-put-together episodes on the show. It's really well done. It's just unfortunately insanely derivative, and distractingly so. Really really distractingly so. Which is a shame because the episode is great. It just apes Alien so hard its hard to appreciate it.
It's totally different. They borrowed the predator heat vision. I'm surprised that Hemmer didn't have his flesh peel away to reveal a cool blue metallic endoskeleton too.
If nothing else, at least it's fun and not pretentious beyond its merits. Something to be said about a show aimed at kids not feeling the need to try too hard and kind of turning out better for it.
Prodigy is weird because it just drops a single Star Fleet ship, with no crew, into a Galaxy that’s never even heard of Star Fleet. So it’s just the kids finding it and figuring it out with the help of the hologram teacher. Kind of almost tangentially a Star Trek show than an actual one so far. It is rather fun though. The worst part of it has been the release schedule. Five episodes, a several month hiatus, five more episodes, and now it’s been like a five more month hiatus and counting and it’s still the first season.
AduroT wrote: Prodigy is weird because it just drops a single Star Fleet ship, with no crew, into a Galaxy that’s never even heard of Star Fleet. So it’s just the kids finding it and figuring it out with the help of the hologram teacher. Kind of almost tangentially a Star Trek show than an actual one so far. It is rather fun though. The worst part of it has been the release schedule. Five episodes, a several month hiatus, five more episodes, and now it’s been like a five more month hiatus and counting and it’s still the first season.
Just to be picky, it's not a different galaxy, it's the Delta Quadrant hence Janeway being attached.
Not really cos we've done the Delta Quadrant before with Voyager. It's not explored as well as the Alpha and Beta Quadrants but there's established species and stuff there. Like Neelix.
Orville: This one felt more like previous seasons. Maybe not quite as slapsticky, but not just an hour of depression.
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So yeah, time travel. I get where Ed is coming from, but can’t blame Gordon at all because he’s also right. Thankfully we know from a previous episode and the comics that his family doesn’t cease to exist because Orville operates on divergent realities of time travel, even if “our” ship’s crew hasn’t figured that out yet. I liked Issac’s side adventure with the other gal as well. Some character growth there perhaps, or at least new insights into them.
Strange New Worlds:
Spoiler:
I have no knowledge of exactly what happened in the original episode this one is giving us an alternative of, but I can guess from context. I liked the Romulan dude and Pike’s attitudes towards each other and it’s a shame they weren’t able to work that out. I was briefly really confused when the Star Fleet armada showed up until they explained that. It was cute to see the “actual” Kirk show up, and we can’t complain about the continuity of it since it was explicitly an alternate time line. Scottie’s cameo was amazing as well.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: And since I’ve been up for around 26 hours, and can’t really go to sleep until 8pm (6 hours away), I’m super tired, so gonna try Prodigy.
I have no knowledge of exactly what happened in the original episode this one is giving us an alternative of, but I can guess from context. I liked the Romulan dude and Pike’s attitudes towards each other and it’s a shame they weren’t able to work that out. I was briefly really confused when the Star Fleet armada showed up until they explained that. It was cute to see the “actual” Kirk show up, and we can’t complain about the continuity of it since it was explicitly an alternate time line. Scottie’s cameo was amazing as well.
It riffs on "Balance of Terror" (TOS) which starts with a wedding of two Enterprise crew members and involves a Romulan bird of prey with a cloaking device and plasma weapon blowing gak up - only it was KIRK as captain of the Enterprise, not Pike.
The reaction to the Romulans looking like Vulcans and their doubting looks at Spock all mirror that.
I have no knowledge of exactly what happened in the original episode this one is giving us an alternative of, but I can guess from context. I liked the Romulan dude and Pike’s attitudes towards each other and it’s a shame they weren’t able to work that out. I was briefly really confused when the Star Fleet armada showed up until they explained that. It was cute to see the “actual” Kirk show up, and we can’t complain about the continuity of it since it was explicitly an alternate time line. Scottie’s cameo was amazing as well.
It riffs on "Balance of Terror" (TOS) which starts with a wedding of two Enterprise crew members and involves a Romulan bird of prey with a cloaking device and plasma weapon blowing gak up - only it was KIRK as captain of the Enterprise, not Pike.
The reaction to the Romulans looking like Vulcans and their doubting looks at Spock all mirror that.
Having seen the previews I took the time to re-watch Balance of Terror to see how close they stuck with it.
Short answer is: A lot, they worked really hard to line up Pike's version of Balance of Terror with the one from TOS:
Spoiler:
Right down to the dialogue, context clues tell us Pike was in the middle of making the exact same speech at the wedding that Kirk was in the episode opener, the dialogue about the starbases going quiet intermittently (though who and why is saying what is different, given the different bridge composition, save Spock and Uhura) and the outpost commander worked especially hard to mimic the somewhat hammy performance of the original actor, "It's on my screen now... Can you see it Enterprise?!"
Major script elements of that episode are also present and accounted for in the order they're accounted for in TOS, the comet, the encoded signal bounced off the comet tail, the plan to catch the bird of prey by waiting for it to diffuse the comet's tail and bracket it with phaser fire, the romulan commander realizing thats what they plan to do, evading and getting the drop on them, etc. all elements from Balance of Terror, paced a little different because we don't cut to the Romulans to get their perspective on things during these events in the Strange New Worlds version.
Then we see something interesting... Pike is never made aware of the exact point his presence causes things to go differently, but we do if we've seen both episodes:
Spoiler:
In TOS: The Enterprise runs from the plasma weapon, and is severely damaged but able to limp back and continue fighting.
In SNW: The Enterprise needs to lend aid to the Faragut, and is still hit by the plasma weapon at extreme range, but is flying towards it when it happens. This damages the Enterprise's weapons at a different time and in a different way than in the original episode. (And coincidentally, kills the weapons operator instead of her fiancé)
This leaves Pike needing to offer a ceasefire to the Romulan warbird because neither of them know how damaged they are - It's clear though that this is something Pike would prefer to do and is basically looking for any excuse to do - which is the real key difference between him and whoever else would be there in his place (Kirk, who he meets, but doesn't know would be the one commanding the Enterprise here). The Romulan sub-commander uses that opportunity to signal for help to the Romulan Empire (now not detected because they're not bouncing signals off the comet) and Pike realizes his showing mercy has sparked off a war, and gets the message that he needs to accept the fate he's been so scared of in order to avert catastrophe.
Except... there's another point of divergence, one the episode takes time to point out...
Spoiler:
The Romulan sub-commander, the second in command who sends that distress signal back to the Empire sparking off the war... he's not supposed to be there in that position. In Balance of Terror the sSub-commander is an old grey-haired man who served with the commander on multiple campaigns, they're both tired of war but disagree on to what extent that can factor in to their sense of duty, and he ends up dying to save the commander during the fight around the comet...
Except he's not there, the Commander takes his sub-commander aside when he questions him in front of the crew and talks to him about his 'uncle' who served with him on many campaigns and died during the 'Reman Campaign'. Because he's dead, we have a new sub-commander, one who's younger, more hardline, and goes behind the captain's back to send a signal to home, and he's more directly responsible for sparking the war than Pike is.
Now...
Spoiler:
they also point out Pike's fated accident still happened, but no one was there to be killed by it, meaning he's spent seven years or so prepping everybody for it to happen, so who's to say this didn't cause ripple effects could have spread out enough to cause a Romulan sub-commander to die fighting Remans who he might have otherwise not have fought, but there's something FuturePike says very explicitly: Every change, every other timeline he looks at, Spock dies.
Is there a chance we have someone else monkeying around with the timeline?
The original was better though this version wasn't actually bad either though. I'm a bit biased though as, like many, Balance of Terror is easily in my top five TOS episodes.
I liked the addition of a new but old ship that reminded me of the old FASA and SFB kitbashes of the 80's and surprisingly the new uniform on the unexpected visitor with a gift. It makes me feel that the WOK+ era (not technically TMP... maroon cotton always trumps pastel polyester jumpsuits!) is a missed opportunity for nutrek. Plus they got some extra use likely recycling an existing 3d model and textures from Picard for the adversary.
Balance of Terror is one of my favorite episodes of not just TOS but all of Trek, so watching that SNW finale was an absolute delight. I'm sure it was a fine episode for those who haven't seen the original, but my god there was so much to appreciate for fans that remember Balance of Terror. The conversation with the outpost commander, the design of the war bird, the shot of it decloaking, how the weapon fires - it's all ripped straight from TOS but with all of the oomph of modern SFX. Hell, even the music! I whooped for joy at the tune they played when you first see the Romulan commander. It's such a beautiful homage to TOS. The twist they throw on the episode is so good. It presents a very sensible alternative to the decisions Kirk makes in the original.
It's such a well done finale. They saved the best for last IMO. I even really liked the guy they got to play Kirk. I thought he did a great job mimicking Shatner's presence. I can't wait for season 2!
creeping-deth87 wrote: Balance of Terror is one of my favorite episodes of not just TOS but all of Trek, so watching that SNW finale was an absolute delight. I'm sure it was a fine episode for those who haven't seen the original, but my god there was so much to appreciate for fans that remember Balance of Terror. The conversation with the outpost commander, the design of the war bird, the shot of it decloaking, how the weapon fires - it's all ripped straight from TOS but with all of the oomph of modern SFX. Hell, even the music! I whooped for joy at the tune they played when you first see the Romulan commander. It's such a beautiful homage to TOS. The twist they throw on the episode is so good. It presents a very sensible alternative to the decisions Kirk makes in the original.
It's such a well done finale. They saved the best for last IMO. I even really liked the guy they got to play Kirk. I thought he did a great job mimicking Shatner's presence. I can't wait for season 2!
I was going to chime in, but your comment pretty much sums up everything I was going to say. I, too, cheered when they played the music cue as the Romulan commander appeared, just as I did for all the other things they copied extremely faithfully. Even the Romulan uniforms looked like they should, as did old Pike's WoK-era uniform. And I'd swear they just used James Doohan voice clips for off-screen Scotty. A nice touch since we never actually saw him. And in true Trek style, they threw in a hook at the end to make sure we'll all tune in for the next season. Not quite a cliffhanger like TNG's "Best of Both Worlds, Part 1" ending, but one that we're still gonna be waiting for the resolution of.
I really liked that Orville episode and it always feels a bit weird to see people who do shows like Family Guy and American Dad do drama stuff. Then I remembered Scott Grimes (the guy who plays Malloy) was in Band of Brothers and it makes more sense as to why the scenes were that good.
So having given the dust time to settle (and Rogers time to get their gak together) what's the consensus on season 1?
Spoiler:
Personally, I think they did pretty damn good. About on par with Lower Decks in terms of being able to take its premise and run without stumbling, which personally I think is harder to do with an earnest live action show than an animated parody.
Is it the best first season of any live action Trek show? Maybe, depending on how you measure such things. On the one hand, at 10 episodes it's a mere third the length of TOS's first season, and two fifths of TNG's, but I dare say it has more good episodes in a series than TNG has in its entire first season. More importantly, it's consistently good, with even the weaker episodes (Ghosts of Illyria, Serene Squall) only really seeming bad by comparison.
Strange New Worlds may be done for now but Orville carries on! Another good episode this week. We get to see the Kaylon’s back story play out. Pretty much what you would expect. Lot of good character growth. More jokes and humor sprinkled thruout.
Spoiler:
I was disappointed when Issac took the emotion chip, because I feel he’s already got nascent emotions despite his denials and thought the chip was a dumb shortcut. Glad it didn’t pan out. The thing with Claire continues to be really weird and she’s quite manipulative.
Started on Strange New Worlds and a minor thing keeps bugging me, (even more than the Gorn), everything is too darn BIG. The bridge is like twice what it was in TOS, Sick Bay and Engineering are the size of K-Marts, and the shuttle looks like it's triple wide.
Now most sets in TOS were already too big, the Enterprise is advanced but it's still a ship, a starship at that. Space it as a premium. Air, light and heat all take power. But none of the SNW sets convey they are in a ship, they're all the size of auditoriums.
Having Jo from Facts of Life as the helmsman is unexpectedly growing on me.
Enjoying it otherwise (but does everyone need a deep dark secret?) will definitely keep with it.
Federation Starships never really go for the whole "space is a premium" aspect. Heck the Enterprise D has families on board and pretty open corridors.
I think they approach it from the view that those exploratory ships are supposed to be far from base for extended periods of time and thus comfort, eg in the form of ample space, is worth the extra investment in construction.
You notice it over other races, eg Klingon ships are often very tight on space. Everything is very packed in tight, the Commander is hardly an inch from the rest of his crew on their bridge; meanwhile Federation ships have a lot more room.
Though I can certainly agree that its strange seeing an older ship with more space when the ship itself is supposed to be smaller overall than something like the Enterprise D
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Started on Strange New Worlds and a minor thing keeps bugging me, (even more than the Gorn), everything is too darn BIG. The bridge is like twice what it was in TOS, Sick Bay and Engineering are the size of K-Marts, and the shuttle looks like it's triple wide.
Now most sets in TOS were already too big, the Enterprise is advanced but it's still a ship, a starship at that. Space it as a premium. Air, light and heat all take power. But none of the SNW sets convey they are in a ship, they're all the size of auditoriums.
Having Jo from Facts of Life as the helmsman is unexpectedly growing on me.
Enjoying it otherwise (but does everyone need a deep dark secret?) will definitely keep with it.
Well, they do use Sci-Fi fuel, specifically matter/anti-matter. So in terms of fuel efficiency they just don’t have the same constraints as we do in the real world. And as mentioned just above, they’re primarily scientific and exploratory vessels, packed with scientists, not soldiers. Given you never really know what’s out there - and indeed finding that out is The Enterprises specific mission? You need a lot “just in case” type equipment and labs etc.
Combine the two, and you can have much larger ships.
The Klingon comparison is a solid one, as those tend to be geared toward battle. Literal gun platforms, hence they seem disproportionately powerful compared to Federation ships due to that specialised design intent. Add in a cloaking device to help catch people with their pants down, and you end up with a much leaner vessel design.
Wow. Either the director has no sense of space or really wanted to throw in a homage to Monsters Inc. I thought turbo lifts went around in 'shafts' like normal lifts, only without cables, using anti-grav/tractor beam technology, and could move sideways (through tunnels) when necessary. I had no idea the Disco had a vast hyperspatial chamber inside it.
MarkNorfolk wrote: Wow. Either the director has no sense of space or really wanted to throw in a homage to Monsters Inc. I thought turbo lifts went around in 'shafts' like normal lifts, only without cables, using anti-grav/tractor beam technology, and could move sideways (through tunnels) when necessary. I had no idea the Disco had a vast hyperspatial chamber inside it.
Must be Magrathean.
Have an exalt for the Magrathea reference!
On a slightly related note, I've heard that one of the engineering displays on the Enterprise D says something about an Improbability Drive. Watched through that entire series twice and somehow failed to spot it though.
MarkNorfolk wrote: Wow. Either the director has no sense of space or really wanted to throw in a homage to Monsters Inc. I thought turbo lifts went around in 'shafts' like normal lifts, only without cables, using anti-grav/tractor beam technology, and could move sideways (through tunnels) when necessary. I had no idea the Disco had a vast hyperspatial chamber inside it.
Must be Magrathean.
Have an exalt for the Magrathea reference!
On a slightly related note, I've heard that one of the engineering displays on the Enterprise D says something about an Improbability Drive. Watched through that entire series twice and somehow failed to spot it though.
I've heard that too. I think it's so tiny on one of the control panels you'd never spot it.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Started on Strange New Worlds and a minor thing keeps bugging me, (even more than the Gorn), everything is too darn BIG. The bridge is like twice what it was in TOS, Sick Bay and Engineering are the size of K-Marts, and the shuttle looks like it's triple wide.
Now most sets in TOS were already too big, the Enterprise is advanced but it's still a ship, a starship at that. Space it as a premium. Air, light and heat all take power. But none of the SNW sets convey they are in a ship, they're all the size of auditoriums.
It occurs to me that a larger bridge set would have some important functional advantages. It gives them more room to shoot from various angles, and more space to do more interesting stuff with the actors' blocking, etc. Even some room to do some action stuff if needed. All of this adds visual interest.
It likewise makes sense that alien bridge sets would be much smaller. For one thing, the studio probably doesn't want the expense. For another, the shows tend not to spend much time there compared to those on the ships of our heroes.
AduroT wrote: For those who missed it or forgotten it, this to me is the most egregious scene, showing the space Turbolifts move thru on Discovery.
Disco doesn't count! It's an alternate timeline or a holodeck simulation or 30th century tech, or Q just #$%^ing around!
Does NOT count!
(Enterprise also does not count, since the final episode revealed that it was Riker's holodeck program)
Anyway IIRC the egregious turbolift scene happened after Disco's future upgrade so my theory is at this point the ship is a teseract the size of California.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, also irked with Nurse Chapel, who is a great character but not the TOS character, and doing stuff a nurse would not be doing. Just give her another name!
Also Bingo is not a list, it is a grid, does no one know this?
A LONG episode of Orville, clocking in at roughly an hour and twenty minutes. Largely humorless, short of one awkward scene in engineering. We’re dealing with the Moclans again though, so lots of political allegories to be found there. Overall I liked this episode. While I did lack the humor, it managed to not be so dour as others this season and still be upbeat for a good chunk of it. Nice cameo too.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Oh, also irked with Nurse Chapel, who is a great character but not the TOS character, and doing stuff a nurse would not be doing. Just give her another name!
I wonder if Nurse is her acting rank (rather than job role), as she's on a civilian exchange programme?
Disco had an insanely large turbolift sequence before its futuretime refit and another one after (which is where that clip comes from, I think, due to lack of rails), if I recall the internet drama it whipped up correctly.
And SNW is not free of it either, because we saw the Enterprise's turbolift shaft ( ) in Short Treks and its also similarly sci-fi cavernous.
Until we get an actual explanation, my guess it's an FX flub that they're trying to run with. Someone told the effects team there had to be 'space' around the cars thinking they'd need to be able to maneuver around each other and that the space beyond had to look sci-fi and techy and the someone on the effects team thought that meant lots of cavernous techy space and the team was too tired, too tight on a budget, too close to a deadline, etc. to fix it.
And now they have this flub and they're trying to run with it but they really, really can't unless they go for some kind of 'oh the artificial gravity plays nasty on your eyes and depth perception' kind of explanation.
As for the bridge being larger in general there's a few things to consider:
The SNW Enterprise is larger than the specified technical details in the TOS bible - for some this is an unforgivable sin, despite the fact that the TOS Enterprise is also definitely larger than the specified technical details in the TOS bible, or else the TOS bridge set wouldn't fit in the dome on top of the saucer and the windows in the neck would shine clear through to the other side with no space for people in between.
The TOS bridge also has a counterintuitive layout compared to other Trek ships, it's actually on a 38 degree angle from the front of the ship, and the turbolift door on the side there is actually pointed towards the drive section, and it's completely surrounded by a corridor ring that has the toilet and other amenities.
In comparison, the SNW bridge has its view screen oriented forward, with one turbolift door at the TOS angle port stern and a second midway on the starboard side. The eaglemoss cutaways make it seem like it does away with the circular corridor, opting instead for a semi-circle at the back, leaving more room in the front which neatly accounts for the (not all that much when we get down to it) extra room we see on the bridge.
The TOS bridge was either at a 38 degree angle or had a corridor ring, I believe. The angle comes from the bulge at the back of the bridge dome on the model supposedly corresponding to the turbo lift. If there is a corridor, the turbo lift bulge would be sticking up out of that, not out behind it.
I favor the explanation that the ship is larger than the official numbers, the bridge is centered with the turbo lift off-center and completely enclosed in the main bridge dome, and the bulge behind the dome on the model is some kind of sensor, not the turbo lift.
The old technical manual went with he entire bridge being off by 38 degrees for …reason?
It's very similar to a SF short story I can almost remember/tip of my tongue. "Those who leave (someplace)" basically describes a fantasy city where the weather is always perfect, food is plentiful, people are happy etc.
But in the dungeons below there's a child kept in misery and the magic that keeps the city perfect only works as long as the child is miserable. And so every so often some people pack up and leave paradise without a word unable to stand the guilt.
Anyone remember the full name or writer? I must have read it 30+ years ago.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas?
That's the one!
Thanks!
Finished SNW and loved it but for the issue noted above and that the costumes aren't as good as the Enterprise costumes in Disco with the off center seam.
I hate to say it but I think that maybe, possibly, it could be said, that in some ways, Sir Patrick Stewart is every so slightly... old.
I really can't tell if he's acting or just y'know, old.
Watch some of the Q&A/advertising for season 2. He's gone.
He doesn't really remember the character, just vague memories of his Shakespearian training which rattles out in shaky, incoherent monologues
Picard Episode 7 - Liking the Borg queen buddy comedy.
But am I the only one thinking this should have been set a bit further forward? 2034 at least.
I mean this is supposed to be OUR present, not an alternate 2024 so the idea of manned (womaned? co-eded? crewed!), ahem a CREWED mission to f'ing Europa is nonsense. That's like an order of magnitude further than Mars and we're no where close to Mars yet. We can't even get to the moon ATM.
Its not our time, just the same year-ish in the Star Trek timeline. DS9 set up the Bell Riots in 2024 the same way Back to the Future 2 thought we'd have flying cars in 2015.
Gert wrote: Its not our time, just the same year-ish in the Star Trek timeline. DS9 set up the Bell Riots in 2024 the same way Back to the Future 2 thought we'd have flying cars in 2015.
And don’t forget the eugenics war/WW3 in the 1990s according to TOS and Wrath of Khan, but is that still in the timeline with the voyager and enterprise time travel episodes? Doesn’t really fit with the Voyage Home either…..
The Enterprise and Voyager time travel episodes all got wrapped up by the Time Police.
So, for example, the Na'khul went back in time to help Nazi Germany win WW2 but then Enterprise got involved and fixed the timeline so the effects of the Na'khul going back didn't affect the timeline properly. It still happened but only the Time Police and the crew of the Enterprise remember the events.
The Xindi one where the Reptilians went back and abducted humans did happen though as there was no clean-up by the Time Police but nobody knew it was the Xindi cos the only human who met them was declared insane.
SNW established that (as of now) the 2nd Civil War (a new addition to the timeline I believe), Eugenics War, and World War III are still coming for us. And Picard establishing Adam Soong as the father of the enhanced of Khan Nguyen Singh backs that up.
Something to look forward to I guess
Thinking about it... I would LOVE a Trek prequel set in the early days after First Contact. Post WWIII rebuilding, nations are still at war, the enhanced are still out there, we have to persuade the Vulcans to stay involved, other aliens are sniffing around... And somehow out of that a united peaceful Earth emerges. That would be pretty inspiring.
Enterprise started on the right path and then got distracted with the whole time war thing. I loved how it started with Vulcans having that element of mystery and superiority that we really don't get after Original series (and even then its mostly more in the films than in the series itself). By the time we hit Voyager Vulcans are just "oh they are super serious and sometimes read minds; and once every so often the males go a bit nuts for mating".
Kid_Kyoto wrote: SNW established that (as of now) the 2nd Civil War (a new addition to the timeline I believe), Eugenics War, and World War III are still coming for us. And Picard establishing Adam Soong as the father of the enhanced of Khan Nguyen Singh backs that up.
Those three events are apparently all follow-ons. The 2nd American Civil War started, then the Eugenics Wars begin which leads to WW3.
The biggest problem with any sort of modern time travel stuff for Trek is that the show started in the 1960s. They were expecting fully manned space vessels in the 90s (which is where the SS Botany Bay comes from) and super-men (Khan).
The showrunners of Picard had to address the whole "no Eugenics Wars in the 90s" thing by saying that:
A - Spock was wrong.
B - WW3 messed records up badly and people lost track of history.
C - Possible ripples from the Temporal Cold War.
Personally, B is fine for me as cataclysmic events do tend to have that effect on things.
Thinking about it... I would LOVE a Trek prequel set in the early days after First Contact. Post WWIII rebuilding, nations are still at war, the enhanced are still out there, we have to persuade the Vulcans to stay involved, other aliens are sniffing around... And somehow out of that a united peaceful Earth emerges. That would be pretty inspiring.
Yeah but then it isn't exactly Star Trek is it? Plus, most of what is going on is just Earth uniting, which takes nearly 100 years from Cochrane's Warp flight. Humanity colonises Mars and stuff but not a whole lot actually goes on Trekking-wise.
Actually even way back in Original series the whole "WW3 messed up records" was used. I recall it being rolled out when Scotty was justifying giving some materials technology to a development firm in order to trade it for the material to build the whale enclosure. They basically risked giving a firm a technology that they knew was developed "around that time" to a random firm for what they needed; with the hope that it wouldn't change all that much.
I'm happy to assume that the Trek-verse is now on its 12th timeline what with time travelers mucking stuff up and counter time travelers fixing stuff as best they can.
The Eugenics Wars thing could be hand waved as Adam Soong started his experiments in the 90s so people count that as the start of the 'Eugenics Wars era' kind of like saying the Global War on Terror did not start on Sept 11, 2001 but in the 80s or the 70s, or the 60s, but that Sept 11 launched a new phase.
As for a dark political Trek prequel, yeah it would be hard to make it about ships and discovery and pew-pew, but it could be done. Make the focus on the emerging United Earth Government trying to launch their first interstellar mission (and why not, let's name that ship Enterprise too, NCC-0001) while nationalist groups, isolationist groups, Martian separatists, secret enhanced supermen, aliens et al are messing around causing trouble. Main characters can include the Captain-to-be, the visionary politician, the Vulcan Ambassador etc.
Man, Orville this week is really good this week. Mostly action this go around. It really feels like a season finale but there’s still one more episode to go. Really hope they get picked up for another season.
In-house parodies are always hard, you can't really hit too hard when you're also supposed to be romoting the property. But Lower Decks seemed to be creating some good characters. But then S2 brings back a dead character, they get a cute joke out of it, but that's it. Also Boimler's promotion is undone and he's returned to the ship (though again they get a cute joke from it). Keep in mind that Boimler's whole character arc was wanted to get promoted and move to a bigger ship. There's a bit of growth there, Boimler realizes he wants to do science and stuff, not just fly around and shoot stuff.
But the lesson I walk away with is no one will die, and nothing will change. Which makes it really hard to continue to care about the characters.
3/5 stars
So, OK, rewatch SNW then I can cancel Paramount till next year.
But the lesson I walk away with is no one will die, and nothing will change. Which makes it really hard to continue to care about the characters.
I mean that's pretty standard for Star Trek.
I don't recall any of the main crew being killed off in Original Series; Tasha was killed off in TNG and I think she was the only main character that was killed (1 doctor and Wesley also left). DS9 the vast majority of the cast survived and that was through a massive war. Voyager was the same, very few actually died.
Star Trek has generally had a super low instance of death; and its really only in DS9 that we see people getting promoted and moving around in their positions. Even then a lot of that hinges on Nog and Jake, with many of the core cast remaining in their respective positions even if they develop those positions. O'Brian is still chief engineer; Bashieer is still medical, Quark still runs his bar, Sisko is still Captain. Heck most of them only change roles in the final.
Oh sure, Original series killed off at least one or two redshirts most weeks.
Kes also dies; which apparently wasn't a good thing behind the scenes as her actress was well liked by the cast and when they replaced her, the actress for Seven got a rather cold reception from some.
Also I believe Jadzia wasn't even a planned death in the series.
They are so rare that most of the time I think that, for key characters, they are more the result of actor and show parting ways than they are a part of the plot put there intentionally.
Oh... it uhh... it gets worse (don't watch that until you've seen the final episode).
The people in charge of Star Trek don't understand Star Trek, or even sci-fi. I've been saying this for almost 15 years now.
It used to be that "nerd-stuff" was a niche, but with the mainstreaming of it, the people who lovingly crafted it and consumed it for years have been pushed out and ignored.
And I really don't like the Romulan ninja nuns. And especially that Burham's mom is apparently one of them. I'd totally blocked all memory of that storyline. Meh, I paid for a month, I'll watch it.
I just got Paramount + with a Sky package and honestly I'll watch SNW and that's it. I've got all the other Treks on Netflix and Lower Decks on Prime so it's not a service I can see myself regularly using.
I did attempt to watch Halo but I lasted 30 mins, so let's hope SNW does better.
And I really don't like the Romulan ninja nuns. And especially that Burham's mom is apparently one of them. I'd totally blocked all memory of that storyline. Meh, I paid for a month, I'll watch it.
The new uniforms are nice.
Are you a Halo fan? That show is on there as well in case you want it to glass your nostalgia too.
On the bright side, at some point Top Gun 2 will pop on there as well though I don't know when.
Well that was a nice casual season finale for Orville after last week’s action packed episode. Just a couple good character stories and a lot of exploring the Prime Directive. Good humor, nothing super serious, just nice. Do hope they get renewed for a forth.
In some ways, I think the core of what used to define Star Trek for me was a pro-colonial attitude and complete trust that technological advancements would solve all the problems of human nature. It is about humans living in a communist utopia and being super happy about it.
And pre-movie Kirk might as well be god for all his infallibility.
That's kind of what the show was all about when Gene Roddenberry was running things. He was crazy optimistic about the future and how as technology advances people would just become nicer to one another.
Naturally most of his episodes were about humans invading new planets and destroying their governments and culture because they saw them as inferior.
I thought the shift when he died was interesting because Trek suddenly was okay with the Federation having institutional problems and hypocrisy (before we just had Star Fleet officers that got possessed by aliens once in a while).
To me that's the legacy of Trek one way or another, and it only makes sense that new Trek has to deal with that.
odinsgrandson wrote: In some ways, I think the core of what used to define Star Trek for me was a pro-colonial attitude and complete trust that technological advancements would solve all the problems of human nature. It is about humans living in a communist utopia and being super happy about it.
And pre-movie Kirk might as well be god for all his infallibility.
That's kind of what the show was all about when Gene Roddenberry was running things. He was crazy optimistic about the future and how as technology advances people would just become nicer to one another.
Naturally most of his episodes were about humans invading new planets and destroying their governments and culture because they saw them as inferior.
I thought the shift when he died was interesting because Trek suddenly was okay with the Federation having institutional problems and hypocrisy (before we just had Star Fleet officers that got possessed by aliens once in a while).
To me that's the legacy of Trek one way or another, and it only makes sense that new Trek has to deal with that.
I do not see how Star Trek is pro-colonial at all. The Prime Directive seems firmly anti-colonial. Nor do I see Roddenberry making technology the solution to all problems. Earth is an allegedly Post-scarcity society but there is still conflict, still medical issues, still ethical issues that have not been resolved by technology. Humanity still makes mistakes and has to learn from other species. Not everyone is super happy. Some miners work for years to get rich and get cheated a con man selling androids if I remember correctly….
Roddenberry was an Air Force combat veteran and a cop earlier in his life (as well as being the son of a cop) and I think that influenced his views. His take on Starfleet would have been based on those experiences. I know my views on life were shaped by my time as a soldier and a cop, and his take on Trek resonates with me compared to what I see of Trek today.
Kirk is hardly infallible. He makes plenty of mistakes. Over and over again. I honestly can not understand how anyone would see him as infallible. His failings as a father. As a romantic partner. As a leader who has a number of casualties under his command. He is carried in part by his friends as friends but also by his crew who are more than just windowdressing or cheerleaders for him.
I also do not see how you can say “most of the episodes were about humans invading new planets”. Sure, I get that some episodes the Prime Directive seems ignored but invaded? Exploration leading to contact and then potential conflict? Sure. Especially in cases of ignorance. But rarely malice except in the case of individuals. Hardly systematic, institutional invasions.
Roddenberry showed us a vision of what could be, if we wanted to have it. If we tried. A difficult to maintain almost utopian future that required constant vigilance and maintenance while striving to further improve. That resonates with me.
Current Trek seems to be focused on bitterly remarking on what we have already and how it will continue into a dystopian future. It relishes denigrating institutions and highlighting quirky individuals who find the ends often justify the means. That does not resonate with me.
I do not see how Star Trek is pro-colonial at all. The Prime Directive seems firmly anti-colonial...
The original show didn't have a Prime Directive. It was far more pro-colonial than the later shows (since it was mostly about how the Enterprise finds new civilizations and fixes all of their problems by bringing human ideals to them). At its worst, they straight up kill the gods/robots that made a planet into a paradise so that the people can learn through suffering like humans did.
The original show takes pains to make sure that not only is Humanity always Right, but Kirk is always kind of representative of the best of us. His "flaws" all end up as strengths until the movie depictions of him (where he has a major shift in personality). A lot of this comes from the era in which the 'good guys' needed to 'win' all the time.
TNG was able to grapple with issues in a more mature way, but the Prime Directive is a funny subject because the show almost never depicted it as 'correct.' It is like a good idea in the abstract that is never good in the moment- and mostly comes up to provide conflict (so that they can ultimately disregard it and do the right thing). Sometimes the Prime Directive messes up character motivations (like Picard violates the Prime Directive to save a kid in one episode, but he thinks that a civilization needs to die because he won't violate it in another episode- in that case I think Jordi, Ryker or Whorf violate it instead and Picard is an obstacle in the story).
Eventually the writers started making the Prime Directive sometimes be right- but I think that was pretty late in TNG. It might have only happened after Gene died.
In my view, Gene saw the Federation as an idealistic utopia that kind of follows the pre-WWI idea that the rational movement of the Enlightenment was making people behave better, and he subscribes to a very conformist view. I agree that the later writers made the Federation into a more pragmatic political power that sometimes does unethical things to outsiders.
I think this follows the way that Americans view America in the eras involved- in the 1960s the population mostly thought of ourselves as the 'good guys' in a simplistic way. That was more complex in the '80s and '90s and currently we see that our government often behaves in pragmatic but unethical ways.
I think this follows the way that Americans view America in the eras involved- in the 1960s the population mostly thought of ourselves as the 'good guys' in a simplistic way.
Ugh. The 'America' episode (Omega Glory) of TOS was particularly painful for this reason. Heart of Darkness meets yellow peril meets the exalted Constitution that will raise up the noble (white) savages over their evil communist attackers, thanks to their mindless obedience to the sacred words.
On stardate 3156.2, the USS Enterprise was trying to determine the fate of the starship Archon. After his entire crew was threatened with death by the Landru computer, Captain Kirk caused the computer to self-destruct by convincing it that it was harming the society that it was designed to protect. Kirk justified the interference by claiming that the society was not "a living, growing culture" and that as an arrested culture the Prime Directive did not apply to it. Following the destruction of the computer Kirk left behind a team of specialists to assist the planet with societal development in the absence of Landru. (TOS: "The Return of the Archons")
This episode contained the first mention of the Prime Directive in Star Trek. It also was the first instance of the Federation taking on the responsibility for mentoring an entire civilization's population post-interference.
And yes, many plots revolve around interpretations of the Prime Directive as situations force people to consider the spirit rather than the letter of that general order. It can be frustrating to see what appears to be contradictory decisions from characters however that is the nature of discretion. What makes sense today may not make sense tomorrow, even given almost identical criteria. Almost identical. It is never identical because at the very least the decision maker will have changed based on the experiences gained between the decisions.
I disagree that Kirk is always shown to be the best of us. He is a heroic character but not the best of humanity.
This is probably going to sound awkward but I see myself as “a good guy” and saw the USA as “the good guys” earlier in my life. I tend to think most protagonists think of themselves as “the good guys”. I have known many violent criminals who saw themselves as “one of the good guys”. And that conflict comes often from diametrically opposed “good guys”. So that kind of story resonates with me.
I no longer see the USA as so clearly “the good guys”, both the government and a large percentage of the population. This is part of what caused the cynicism and bitterness that is like a blight on me. I long for even temporary escapes from the disillusionment I feel and yet part of me hopes that things will find a way to improve. Progress has been made. The USA may feel worse than it was in the past but it is demonstrably better across the board than it has ever been. It ugh hope and striving to be better that things get better. I think Roddenberry believed that and expressed it through Star Trek.
I think seeing ourselves as “not the good guys” is counterproductive. Self loathing is not something I find enjoyable to watch. Nor do I think unethical behavior is merely being pragmatic.
) in Short Treks and its also similarly sci-fi cavernous.
