Season 1 laid the groundwork, as already covered. But. For those who didn’t persevere there or were underwhelmed?
Season 2 is actually kind of standalone. Yes you’ll be left wondering exactly who a bunch of the characters are, but thus far you don’t really need to know their backstories.
Paramount+ announced today that Paul Wesley has joined the season two cast of Star Trek: Strange New Worlds as James T. Kirk, the iconic character originated by William Shatner in Star Trek: The Original Series.
Lol. Maybe someone should tweet at them that Kirk wasn't on the Enterprise at that time and hadn't met Pike. Maybe include a link to TOS on streaming so they can finally watch it for the first time.
warboss wrote: Lol. Maybe someone should tweet at them that Kirk wasn't on the Enterprise at that time and hadn't met Pike. Maybe include a link to TOS on streaming so they can finally watch it for the first time.
Lol nowhere in the article does it say Kirk will be on the Enterprise or even meet Pike lol maybe try reading articles lol.
warboss wrote: Lol. Maybe someone should tweet at them that Kirk wasn't on the Enterprise at that time and hadn't met Pike. Maybe include a link to TOS on streaming so they can finally watch it for the first time.
Lol nowhere in the article does it say Kirk will be on the Enterprise or even meet Pike lol maybe try reading articles lol.
There's speculation he's still on the unnamed "destroyer type"(?) ship he commanded before the Enterprise.
warboss wrote: Lol. Maybe someone should tweet at them that Kirk wasn't on the Enterprise at that time and hadn't met Pike. Maybe include a link to TOS on streaming so they can finally watch it for the first time.
Lol nowhere in the article does it say Kirk will be on the Enterprise or even meet Pike lol maybe try reading articles lol.
There's speculation he's still on the unnamed "destroyer type"(?) ship he commanded before the Enterprise.
Phaser Operator on the USS Farragut if memory serves.
And yes, the salt from people griping about things they've not even seen yet is even more entertaining than the AbramsTrek wailing, and I didn't think that would be possible.
beast_gts wrote: There's speculation he's still on the unnamed "destroyer type"(?) ship he commanded before the Enterprise.
Phaser Operator on the USS Farragut if memory serves.
After that - he was on the Farragut in the 2250s, and took command of the Enterprise in 2265.
Edit - found the reference:
Memory Alpha wrote:According to "The Making of Star Trek", Kirk's first command was a destroyer class ship, however, it has never been indicated onscreen or otherwise that Kirk had any command prior to the Enterprise herself.
Yeah, and it was one of many reasons why that film is generally regarded as the worst out of the classic trek era. It was supposed to be a cautionary tale of what NOT to do and not a roadmap for a future series "twist".
Sssssoooooo… Starfleet headquarters. The decks just slide out and are individually warp capable. Why do they still put nacelles on their ships?
Gravity disruptions pushed all that debris at earth. Remove the source and all the debris just immediately reversed course and flew back out into space?
See Q? I don’t think that’s our Q. Picard specifically mentions he looks unwell, like there’s something wrong with him.
I think he’s Mirror Q, and he’s trying to get Picard to undo the timeline which lead to his eradication day?
Mmmmmm… I dunno. The queen and they seem pretty sure
Spoiler:
that they’re still in the same dimension, just in an alternate timeline.
Nitpick for ep 3…
Spoiler:
Good guy gets shot by phaser, he’s hurt. Other good guys take the bad guys’ phasers and shoot them with them and they’re instantly disintegrated. Did a miss a shot where they turn up the power or why wasn’t the good guy instantly disintegrated as well?
On that count? The two shot and disintegrated were Security. The guy that shot what’s his face is Vice President.
My head canon (and without watching to see specifically who had who’s phaser) is the VP is less likely to have it on Max Lethal than Dedicated Security.
On this episode?
Bit of whimbriling to be fair. As in, quite lengthy exposition.
What I do like is that we can kind of see how we get from 2024 LA to the Bell Riots in San Francisco, which occurred in September that year. Nice little bit of continuity, even if it’s not particularly strict. Again Head Canon for me is LA took a slightly different approach to San Francisco. But we’re still seeing a wide divide between Haves and Have Nots which is pretty consistent.
I’m going to withhold judgement on whether this was pure filler for now, as I think we need another couple of episodes to get better context on how tight this episode’s pace and plot were.
Overall Season 2 continues to be a marked improvement. It really does feel like classic TNG era knees bent running about business.
I wonder how much “power” our queen has. She was able to sprout tentacles and plug herself into and take over the ship, but has made no attempt to otherwise assimilate anyone. EXCEPT when they plugged her directly into the one gal (which also that was a weird spot to attach the cord for a mind link…) and then it was just kind of a mental take over attempt. But given that she’s generally been a team player so far, and the plugged gals explicit purpose was to Help the queen, I don’t know why there was even an attempt made there. So yeah, generally unsure what her current capabilities are.
I Did really like the “impressed me” line. That was a good one.
Yes the queen is very reserved right now. What's interesting is that she is is very clearly not the alternate timeline queen. I forget if that was expressly established in episode 2, but episode 3 its very clear that she's the "original" queen. And yet the whole interconnected concept of queens through different timelines and such she also seems to be much "more".
She also seems to be biding her time a lot. This suggests that she might be a lot weaker than she's letting on considering that she hasn't tried to take the ship entirely. Considering the time period they are now in she's got an ideal chance to just take over and instead of restoring time, take over the Earth before its even become a threat to the Borg. Which was her original plan long long ago in First Contact.
Heck she even got hacked by someone totally unfamiliar with Borg technology and such.
Interestingly I have to say I rather like that Picard isn't as totally overwhelmed by Borg as he was. The Picard of the First Contact era would NEVER have kept her alive or used her or let anyone be assimilated even a little.
All that said I'm waiting for the inevitable moment that the Queen tries to turn the tables.
Also a thought - the Q have long had this kind of warning/play element with Picard and the Borg. Heck it was a big part of Guinens story that the Q never warned her people about the Borg before they were destroyed.
And yet the Q warned the Federation and in doing so the Federation was prepared to resist the Borg. Heck the Q could even take direct action and just wipe the Borg out with a moment.
I wonder if Picard isn't the only one Q is appearing too. I wonder if the Q have involvement with the Borg as well. We've known that the Q have factions and arguments, heck Voyage had a full on war. I wonder if an undisclosed faction of the Q perhaps play with the Borg like Q plays with Picard and the Federation. Pawns in a vast galactic game of Risk?
She is in a pretty exposed position at this particular point.
No Drones, heavily limited mobility. Yes she could probably assimilate folk using the nano bot things? But they’d ultimately lack the usual upgrades and gubbins - which may extend to not having those nifty personal shields.
Right now, she’s the only Borg we really know of in the quadrant (barring those in the ice from the Enterprise era). She has no back up. She arguably could have assimilated Agnes - except Picard was right there. Even if the nano bots could make those assimilation tube injector things we’ve seen elsewhere? There’s still plenty of time for Picard to do something
I don’t believe there are Borg in the ice in this time period. My understanding is those were future Borg that got left behind during First Contact, which hasn’t happened yet where we are now.
I'm kind of surprised Picard hasn't recalled that he met Guinan on earth in the past at one stage. She'd be the ideal "watcher" character that is being referenced.
See Q? I don’t think that’s our Q. Picard specifically mentions he looks unwell, like there’s something wrong with him.
I think he’s Mirror Q, and he’s trying to get Picard to undo the timeline which lead to his eradication day?
What is the difference between a different reality and a reality where the timeline is different - does it not amount to the same thing just semantics? This is very very similar to the Mirror Universe.
re the spoiler.
Spoiler:
I wonder if Q is just lovesick over Picard, he is a bit obsessed with him..... I thought the Q were milti-dimensional beings so not sure if there should be more than one "Q" ?
There was some rubbish about Q being afraid of Guinan in some Next Gen episode - really hope that is not the case.
Not necessarily afraid I’d say. More concerned that Guinan is at least wise to his games was my take away - perhaps with some capacity to challenge/stymie him.
Wasn't that in the first episode? Or at least very early on. I think its a whole storyline that just got dropped as Guinan in TNG didn't actually get much development. Her story got a few twists to it but we never really saw that element return.
It certainly suggested quite strongly that she had some "power" or influence or such. Something that Q wasn't happy about.
As for alternate timeline VS alternate reality
An Alternate Reality runs alongside the existing reality. So the two exist in a concurrent state. You might jump from one to the other and back again, but its one constant timeline stream.
An Alternate Timeline is where the time of the current reality has changed at some significant point enough to have had ripples in time big enough to cause noticeable change. Now this can result in time changing enough that you end up with a situation where its "akin" to an alternate reality, but its not. It's still your same reality; you can't jump off and get back to "your" original reality by moving between realities that way.
Instead the only resolution is what the crew are doing, finding the change in time and going back to fix it.
Spoiler:
Q being sick or changed is interesting. Actually thinking on it, considering that during Voyager one of the big developments was that he fathered a child with another Q, I wonder if this could be Q approaching old age and actually going to die.
We know Q can die/be destroyed. Perhaps some event means that Q is being aged and reaching the end of his immortal life. Other Q judge him and are punishing him? Some politics or even a whim of his own and this is his "last act"?
I know his physical age is a factor of the realities of using the same actor and of "I'm blending in with old Picard" elements, but it might be closer to the truth for Q
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Without snark, it’s nice to see positive posts about recent Trek offerings
Show runners must be doing something right!
I will absolutely continue to complain about and point out all the stupid stuff they do in Discovery, but I mean I’m still watching it. Despite being incredibly dumb it’s still entertaining.
Speaking of Discovery, something I missed until I saw it specifically pointed out. The finale introduced the President of Earth. The role was played by a Stacy Abrams cameo. That’s amusing to me.
So my simple theory.
So this episode had alot of commentary about social issues, not out of the ordinary for trek.
But what was out of the ordinary was it pertaining to our present day and not an allegory, health systems, immigration and much more.
They say the watcher must be an alien, and its probably confirmed,
The watcher may be a sory of judge who decides if a species is ready for first contact. Maybe a Vulcan, maybe something else.
Q has shown very much a disappintment in humanity.
So he went back in time, telling or onfluencing that watcher to make her decision that humanity was not ready.
hotsauceman1 wrote: So my simple theory.
So this episode had alot of commentary about social issues, not out of the ordinary for trek.
But what was out of the ordinary was it pertaining to our present day and not an allegory, health systems, immigration and much more.
They say the watcher must be an alien, and its probably confirmed,
The watcher may be a sory of judge who decides if a species is ready for first contact. Maybe a Vulcan, maybe something else.
Q has shown very much a disappintment in humanity.
So he went back in time, telling or onfluencing that watcher to make her decision that humanity was not ready.
It’s the same 2024 as Sisko, Dax and Bashir visited
Just kind of depressing we’re closer to that dystopia than we are Star Trek’s relative utopia.
That true. I forgot.
I guess im thinkling its a bit more contemporary because while that was 1990s prediction of the future, this is pretty much present(We are gonna have the same problems in 2024 probably.
Hard pass. 'Character thinks they're a real world character imagining their sci-fi life and going insane' is one of the worst tropes infecting 80s/90s/later TV.
DS9 did it, Buffy did it (and it was real awful for how it handled mental illness) and even Stargate did it (and it was nonsensical, because Teal'c was imagining they were all firefighters, and he's an alien that would have very little sense of what firefighters do)
The real-world details of that particular episode are interesting, but binding it to this particular cliche (rather than the holodeck, or Q, or anything else) really taints it. At least for me.
Hard pass. 'Character thinks they're a real world character imagining their sci-fi life and going insane' is one of the worst tropes infecting 80s/90s/later TV.
DS9 did it, Buffy did it (and it was real awful for how it handled mental illness) and even Stargate did it (and it was nonsensical, because Teal'c was imagining they were all firefighters, and he's an alien that would have very little sense of what firefighters do)
The real-world details of that particular episode are interesting, but binding it to this particular cliche (rather than the holodeck, or Q, or anything else) really taints it. At least for me.
The alternate reality that takes place only in one characters mind is a cliche I dislike. Snowpiercer did it the other week with a character in a coma on the brink of death and he has to beat his coma dream or he dies, and it’s just dumb taking up a whole episode while barely moving the plot forward.
I'm happy its a time travel with Q because that means there's a good chance we come out at the end without the whole -
"And then in the end we re-wrote the whole timeline and spawned a brand new series. TNG 2 Reboot where Picard is now a 35 year old long haired hippy leading his own motley crew through space!"
Phasers that wound or diintergrate depending on if you are cast or not was a bit too obvious
* Rafaella is becoming ever more unprofessional, shrill and annoying - defnately not someone who should command a landing party never mind a starship!
*
Spoiler:
"Lets not spoil the timeline by leaving any tech" - sits in huge uncloaked crashlanded ship in the middle of French countryside...
* I don't mind too much the inevitable
Spoiler:
"pretty girl from the past" plotline but it is very predictable
Hopefully episode 4 will be great as 1 and 2 were.
In fairness when your ship crashlands and you're not equipped with a cloaking device, chances are it is hard to hide. Though considering it should have been noticed by someone (radar, sight, massive noise and fire and crashing) it is a little surprising they didn't try and hide it. Then again its a huge ship and they are a small team; and its not as if they can hide the long run of fallen trees and all.
My guess is their hope is that the Watcher might have a ship of their own on the planet that they can use to move/repair/hide their own. So all speed to the Watcher
In fairness when your ship crashlands and you're not equipped with a cloaking device, chances are it is hard to hide. Though considering it should have been noticed by someone (radar, sight, massive noise and fire and crashing) it is a little surprising they didn't try and hide it. Then again its a huge ship and they are a small team; and its not as if they can hide the long run of fallen trees and all.
My guess is their hope is that the Watcher might have a ship of their own on the planet that they can use to move/repair/hide their own. So all speed to the Watcher
I wondered if
Spoiler:
Q is keeping it out of sight because thats the only reason i can think off that the Crash site is not swarming with people!
It just seemed ironic to worry about contamination of the timeline when you have just ploughed a ship through it!
I assume its landed far enough in the countryside of France that its not going to draw as much notice that fast. My guess is if its deep enough into the forests then it would take a while before enough notice would be taken. We can assume that its got some magical sci-fi shield against radar - which isn't that abnormal considering it is a warship.
I assume its landed far enough in the countryside of France that its not going to draw as much notice that fast. My guess is if its deep enough into the forests then it would take a while before enough notice would be taken. We can assume that its got some magical sci-fi shield against radar - which isn't that abnormal considering it is a warship.
Spoiler:
I thought the point was that it landed in the fields at Picards home??
I assume its landed far enough in the countryside of France that its not going to draw as much notice that fast. My guess is if its deep enough into the forests then it would take a while before enough notice would be taken. We can assume that its got some magical sci-fi shield against radar - which isn't that abnormal considering it is a warship.
Spoiler:
I thought the point was that it landed in the fields at Picards home??
Spoiler:
That was my guess as well - somewhere Picard knew there wouldn't be people around.
Which is a little bit of a curious thing as that area must be very isolated. Not forgetting the hundreds of years and that at some point there are a few major global wars before the Federation is birthed.
Hard pass. 'Character thinks they're a real world character imagining their sci-fi life and going insane' is one of the worst tropes infecting 80s/90s/later TV.
DS9 did it, Buffy did it (and it was real awful for how it handled mental illness) and even Stargate did it (and it was nonsensical, because Teal'c was imagining they were all firefighters, and he's an alien that would have very little sense of what firefighters do)
The real-world details of that particular episode are interesting, but binding it to this particular cliche (rather than the holodeck, or Q, or anything else) really taints it. At least for me.
That's unfortunate for you, but it is possibly the best episode of the entire franchise and extremely important. It's a shame that Avery didn't win a grammy for that performance, but given how racist most of those award shows are by design, it is sadly unsurprising.
Phasers that wound or diintergrate depending on if you are cast or not was a bit too obvious
* Rafaella is becoming ever more unprofessional, shrill and annoying - defnately not someone who should command a landing party never mind a starship!
*
Spoiler:
"Lets not spoil the timeline by leaving any tech" - sits in huge uncloaked crashlanded ship in the middle of French countryside...
* I don't mind too much the inevitable
Spoiler:
"pretty girl from the past" plotline but it is very predictable
Hopefully episode 4 will be great as 1 and 2 were.
So far I don't have any praise for any of it.
This doom and gloom crap ISN'T TREK. At this point I've giving up on the Picard show entirely. The Ferengi at Paramount aren't interested in making anything good, they just want your latinum.
A line from the Previously On gave me an idea for a theory;
Spoiler:
Q didn’t change the past. He called it a future of their own making. I think he merely set it up so they would change the past themselves. So. Many. Butterflies!
Alternatively he Did change the past, but it was his change that created the good future while the bad future is what we get without him. Having lost the ability to change stuff, he had to arrange for Picard to go back and make the change for him.
And some reactions to the actual episode;
Spoiler:
They Do have a cloaking device! They just, waited awhile before they turned it on?
Guinan is young? She appeared as older further back in the timeline in a previous Next Gen episode, so I was surprised to see her look like that. I wonder if that’s a retcon or if they’ll say her race can go younger as well as control going older.
Man, it really doesn’t take much makeup to really throw off my actor recognition. I had to Google who Laris was after Picard called her that.
Lovely “Voyage Home” swerve on the bus. Trying to place that song though. I don’t think it’s the Anti-Nowhere League’s “I Hate People”.
I was right about Guinan. Kind of. Ish. OK not at all. At first I was wondering “but Time’s Arrow!!” when she didn’t recognise Picard. But of course, the future that created the events of Time’s Arrow didn’t happen, or at least the way they did. Quite happy they didn’t de-age Whoopi Goldberg. That tech is getting damned good, but use is not compulsory.
12/10 very good Doggo.
The Europa mission keeps being shown off. What’s the betting that’s a significant factor at some point.
Social Commentary remains. And it’s bloody accurate. I am expecting “bUt MaH pOlItIcS” complaints. Because of course Star Trek has never being a moral critique or even dimly political in the past.
Nice bit of expansion on Elaurien abilities. Dunno if they were canon before but it was new to me and that’s what matters.
I’m really enjoying Rafi and Seven’s dynamic. Shades of McCoy and Spock, not to mention O’Brien and Bashir, but in a different way. I’m not sure that makes sense to anyone else but it does for me.
I’m wondering if they’re here to stop something. Perhaps First Contact before Man is ready? Maybe they need to stop the Europa Mission, so we don’t get Warp Capable (somehow!) before we’ve gotten further away from our warlike nature?
And some pretty decent cliff hangers/ plot hooks. I’m really enjoying the pacing overall here. Each episode answers some questions, and then asks some new ones, without it (so far at least) feeling like a convoluted mess.
"Lost in the Past" was a very interesting line from Picard.
Considering Season 1 was very much him being lost in the present. Season 2 is the same for him with the past personally. We keep getting flashbacks to something in his childhood. A very key moment.
Sure the setting is also in the past, but personally this is all about Picard as well. I wonder if this means season 3 will be him getting lost in the future. About where he's taking his life, not just in the present or dwelling on the past. And that doesn't mean season 3 is a forward time travel one, just that the story might focus on him setting a longer term goal for his actions.
The whole Watcher Arc is interesting to see unfolding. I also like that they added the twist that made it who we thought and yet not and then twisted it again. It was enjoyable because we got that "we were righ...oh wait no there's more" element to the story.
Q at the very end was interesting. We've seen him lose powers before when the other Q have sanctioned him. I wonder if he's overstepped his limit and been spotted again. Then again he's the only Q that has a continuous interest in humanity, the others seem to flip from having an interest to having no interest what so ever.
Also his monologing was very dark for him. Another sign that something really isn't quite "right" there. It's subtle but there's just that hint that he's darker, a bit more sinister. A feeling that he's not just testing the limits, but will break them and not put things back properly after he's done.
I wonder if him having a child has anything to do with this story arc.
At first I was wondering “but Time’s Arrow!!” when she didn’t recognise Picard. But of course, the future that created the events of Time’s Arrow didn’t happen, or at least the way they did
Spoiler:
Picard co-showrunner Terry Matalas, explained it like this:
“This Guinan wouldn't remember Picard because in this alternate timeline, the TNG episode "Time's Arrow" never happened. Because there was no Federation, those events did not play out the same. No previous relationship exists. However, she still was likely traveling to Earth and, as we know, she hung around a bit. So this Guinan is different. But she, of course, can sense something is off. She's going through a kind of time-sickness thanks to Q's meddling with the timeline.”
Yeah, it’s knowing but without rubbing anyones face in it shrieking NOSTALGIAS!!!!! CAN YOU SEE MY NOSTALGIAS!!!!!
I’m really, really enjoying this show. Nice mix of character dynamics, with only Picard being particularly consistent (Seven being more Anneka is a solid character shift and one I appreciate).
Plus, everyone is getting some decent screen time, which can be tricky to get right. Certainly nobody really feels like they’re there just because they were in Season 1.
Roll on next Friday I say, but not before Monday because Monday is Walking Dead.
It’s the same guy! Hah! I loved it because I didn’t recognize it for what it was as I watched it, it was some time afterwards I was thinking about it and like wait, wasn’t there a similar scene in the OST? Also now reading a story on the scenes and they mention the guy rubbing his neck where Spock had pinched him, or would have if that timeline had still existed.
It's probably going to end up the most popular scene in the whole series! I love that its not just a nod back but actually has so many of the same people involved so that its an actual nod back in creation as well.
Kirk Thatcher is the man. The story of why he write that song and recorded it in less than 24 hours is legendary. I’ll have to watch that scene just for him.
Its getting a bit silly.....and not in a good way.
Certainly nobody really feels like they’re there just because they were in Season 1.
Raffaela does more and more to me - least fav character by a good few miles.
I really enjoyed the first two episodes but the third for me was poor and the 4th about the same. It does not have the charm of Voyage home and its not gritty enough to take it seriously.
Swearing a bit does not make it "adult" in content or writing
Mr Morden wrote: Its getting a bit silly.....and not in a good way.
Certainly nobody really feels like they’re there just because they were in Season 1.
Raffaela does more and more to me - least fav character by a good few miles.
I really enjoyed the first two episodes but the third for me was poor and the 4th about the same. It does not have the charm of Voyage home and its not gritty enough to take it seriously.
I agree. First couple of episodes were good but the last couple have felt a little weaker. Rafi is deeply annoying and one-note. I think almost every line since episode 2 has been the same from her and it's starting to grate. A lot. Seven's character is developing well though, and there's a hint at something else there too, which is interesting at least.
It's still very watchable but I hope it picks up again soon.
Rafi being one note kind of makes sense, its been what 24 hours or less since someone she considered pretty much a son was killed. She's also in an "alternate time line" so she knows that if she just fixes it everything can go back to what it was before.
So she's dealing with the mental hurdle that someone who is dead might not be dead, but only if she can solve a puzzle basically being set by what many consider the equivalent of a god playing at pulling wings of flies for fun.
Seven is actually developing at a REALLY fast mental speed compared to the others.
I think that things like this might not feel so bad if you watch it all in one go, but feel strange when its spread out with a real time week between episodes whereas in the setting there's almost no time passed at all.
Raffi is supposed to be the captain of a starship - if she can't deal with deaths other than by going nuts then she is going to be a awful captain and it will be even more obvious she got command because of who she knows. She is all kinds of stupid - all the time - probably more why Seven is not with her - because she is a mess and not a hot one....she deserves much much better
Everyone else is good, except they are not being given alot to work with....I don't even mind the
Spoiler:
time traveller guy meets pretty girl
in the past (yet again)
And they need to set a tone - its all over the place .
and that car chase....oh dear oh dear - seriously wtf
Spoiler:
so Raffi - idiot that she always is - wants to use her phaser to open doors then hacks the location - fair enough but then they have to steal the same vehicle - cos reasons.. They then drive it - (lets not switch cars cos reasons) in the open so that when finally caught they have to teleport away in plain sight and likely on traffic camera....yeah no impact on the time line there.....
I think that things like this might not feel so bad if you watch it all in one go, but feel strange when its spread out with a real time week between episodes whereas in the setting there's almost no time passed at all.
Its how I watch a lot of shows - this is just bad in certain places and character IMO
The only thing about the car scene that I disliked is that Seven could drive the car in the first place and drive it really well. When you consider that cars in the future are likely rarely used when you can teleport everywhere; and likely come with a bunch of auto-driver and other features. At least it was an American car so it had automatic gears.
But don't forget Raffi was drug addicted and unstable at the start of the first season. Her breaking under pressure makes perfect sense. We also saw her lose her son during that series, so its clear she's heavily dependent on a handful of very close people to her to maintain her stability. Her going to bits fits. She can lose a crew member she's not attached too, but someone in her inner circle who she's heavily emotionally dependent on, is a whole other ballgame for her.
I agree it feels like she's over-acting, but I think its an emotional collapse that makes sense for her as a character and might feel better when the episodes are watched back to back rather than with a week between them.
Likely Borg granted subconscious knowledge of how make car go. I’d imagine Seven is used to having skills she didn’t personally acquire, and not worrying too much about it.
And sure, her implants are gone, but given memories are fully intact, so would be any Borg granted knowledge.
I get that there are potential reasons why Rafi is being annoying, but it doesn't make her any less annoying. If the writing was better I might be able to accept it, but it's just so cliched and one-note all the time.
The only thing about the car scene that I disliked is that Seven could drive the car in the first place and drive it really well. When you consider that cars in the future are likely rarely used when you can teleport everywhere; and likely come with a bunch of auto-driver and other features. At least it was an American car so it had automatic gears.
But don't forget Raffi was drug addicted and unstable at the start of the first season. Her breaking under pressure makes perfect sense.
re Raffi
Spoiler:
That makes it worse - they gave someone that unstable command of a starship...
Maybe Seven has a antique car somewhere Did she drive them in the Voyager Holo WWII episodes? Alot of people may have picked up odd knowledge and skills in there I guess
Spoiler:
I would have been nice if Seven had met the nice Dr lady - she gets on well with Drs But I guess its written that Seven and Raffi are a thing - sadly.
Also probably worth pointing out getting into a car and making it go really isn’t all that difficult. Like, at all.
Finer manoeuvres like parking, turning in the road and generally knowing your Highway Code type equivalent? Sure. That takes learning.
But driving an Automatic in particular is an absolute piece of piss, with manuals (stick) being only mildly trickier until you know what to listen for and how to smoothly change gear.
And hey. History lessons/reading.
Can I ride a horse in a derby? Probably not, no. But I can probably get up on the bugger and make it walk around a bit.
Horse and Cart? Easy enough to make it go. Again it would likely be obvious I’m not massively competent at it (certainly making it stop might be a big problem, as they don’t have brakes as I’m used to them).
Because cars are pretty straight forward means of transportation. You don’t need a huge amount of skill by design.
Though whilst we’re on it, and just in general? It might be me being of above average height, but how come no bugger just jumping in a strange car in TV/Movies ever adjusts the seat and more importantly the mirrors?? The only one I can think of it happening is Commando, when Arnie rips out the seat.
Overread wrote: Wait a relative of Khan is now on Pikes ship as chief of security decades before Khan is found?
Yep -
“She’s related to Khan, for sure,” said series co-showrunner Akiva Goldsman (as reported by Decider’s Alex Zalben on Twitter), directly tying her character to James Kirk’s nemesis in “Space Seed” and Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. “Canon is almost always delightfully challenging, unless it’s a pain in the ass,” Goldsman also said, per Zalben’s reporting, indicating that the writing team does their best to adhere to canon unless that gets in the way of storytelling requirements.
Co-showrunner Henry Alonso Meyers also spoke about the canon question, as reported by StarTrek.com, saying that the writers “take canon very seriously on the show because we don’t want to break it, but we also want to have fun with it.”
So something must happen so Spock, Uhura, etc. either can't tell Kirk about her, or don't remember her...
If she's a natural born normal relative then it should be little more than a name she shares with him. No genetic modifications or so far back its heavily diluted by now.
If its purely the family name she shares then that would be easy to forget her. However I kinda get the feeling we'll have a "oh she's very strong" or "I've been hiding my superhuman powers for generations... under the same family name --- why yes I did consider renaming myself Skywalker"
It will be interesting to see how they handle it. It's a strange connection though because to fit the cannon it basically has to have no impact on her. Then again even by the DS9 era the idea of genetic modification is heavily looked down upon within the Federation.
She could turn out to be an interesting mix of Tasha Yar and Dr Bashir
Overread wrote: If she's a natural born normal relative then it should be little more than a name she shares with him. No genetic modifications or so far back its heavily diluted by now.
If its purely the family name she shares then that would be easy to forget her. However I kinda get the feeling we'll have a "oh she's very strong" or "I've been hiding my superhuman powers for generations... under the same family name --- why yes I did consider renaming myself Skywalker"
I'd be shocked if she was just the unmodified natural born plain jane black sheep of the family given the propensity (even in the character trailers) for everyone to be the bestest eVar even by traditional classic Star Trek standards. A more realistic expectation is that they're hopeuflly only just double plus good in their chosen specialty and not everything like Michael Burnham. Maybe even join together in their color coded uniforms to form Megaburntronhamzord in the season finale... but that's probably more appropriate for Lower Decks.
Ah, I didn’t know Khan’s name, only Data’s Dad’s, so when I saw Singh I thought it was an odd spelling for him or I was misremembering the pronunciation.
Late to this reveal party, but had to go poke around to make sure this wasn't an April Fools joke.
It apparently isn't, so... why though?
“She’s related to Khan, for sure,” said series co-showrunner Akiva Goldsman (as reported by Decider’s Alex Zalben on Twitter), directly tying her character to James Kirk’s nemesis in “Space Seed” and Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. “Canon is almost always delightfully challenging, unless it’s a pain in the ass,” Goldsman also said, per Zalben’s reporting, indicating that the writing team does their best to adhere to canon unless that gets in the way of storytelling requirements.
Co-showrunner Henry Alonso Meyers also spoke about the canon question, as reported by StarTrek.com, saying that the writers “take canon very seriously on the show because we don’t want to break it, but we also want to have fun with it.”
This says a lot. 'We'll stick to canon unless we don't want to write our stories around it (oh, sorry, if it 'gets in the way' of the stories we're making up')'
The longer time goes on, the more convinced I am that the people making Star Trek now were huge fans of Star Trek Renegades. It's bizarre how many plot points from that movie keep being used (I'm not joking, most of the movies major plot points from super duper secret Romulan conspiracy, to dilithium burning out, to Khan having a secret daughter now all appeared in Star Trek Renegades).
And that movie was god awful, which explains a lot about how blarg the live-action lineup keeps being if anyone liked it so much they're recycling its plot points.
Ahem now I've got that out of my system - interesting episode! We gain another new layer and we know that the genetic war does happen before First Contact. Feels a bit odd that it was a relative of Dr Soonian who did the work, but eh I can let the name slide as its far enough back in the past.
That said it certainly is setting the ground works, though considering we know it happens anyway it seems Q is pushing things to happen faster.
Also very curious that he's now blaming Picard's family and timeline from causing Q to have lost his powers in this moment; when this moment is Q interrupting the timeline in the first place. So there's a lot of questions there as to what is going on.
The Queen seems FAR FAR more deadly this episode. I'm guessing she must have imprinted a lot of herself into Agnes the first time they mind-linked and then this second time she's pumped her full of herself. The idea that she could become the new Queen or at least the host body for the Queen is gaining traction. Interesting that they've gone the whole "two minds one body" angle though. The Queen either can't or has chosen not to fully take over the mind with her own. Perhaps there's not enough of her; or something else.
All in all lots of interesting things going on! Could say that a weak point is the whole immigration storyline appears to have been dropped very suddenly in favour of the new Picard storyline.
Also some casual display of shield technology that we've not seen so far as well. Almost feels a tiny bit like we've swapped writers.
Was it freshly printed? If it was already washed and cured then it's fine. Of course, in the grimdark future of trek, FDM 3d printing machines without modification or set dressing make coffee and snacks instead of the (less?) advanced replicator of TNG. Progress!
warboss wrote: Was it freshly printed? If it was already washed and cured then it's fine. Of course, in the grimdark future of trek, FDM 3d printing machines without modification or set dressing make coffee and snacks instead of the (less?) advanced replicator of TNG. Progress!
It's so fresh that the scene 2 seconds before showed it still on the supports rising from the VAT
We see a xenophobic “oh no! Foreigns! society in 2024.
The alternate timeline is “oh no! Aliens! society.
Those two things are clearly linked, given how The Blame Game is all about scapegoating society’s ills on “the other”, regardless of how little given problem is caused by said Other.
We see a xenophobic “oh no! Foreigns! society in 2024.
The alternate timeline is “oh no! Aliens! society.
Those two things are clearly linked, given how The Blame Game is all about scapegoating society’s ills on “the other”, regardless of how little given problem is caused by said Other.
Lets not make the Borg into victims - at least 7 still reminds them of this now and again
It was def better than last episode mostly cos Raffy was off screen for pretty much all of it.
We see a xenophobic “oh no! Foreigns! society in 2024.
The alternate timeline is “oh no! Aliens! society.
Those two things are clearly linked, given how The Blame Game is all about scapegoating society’s ills on “the other”, regardless of how little given problem is caused by said Other.
Lets not make the Borg into victims - at least 7 still reminds them of this now and again
It was def better than last episode mostly cos Raffy was off screen for pretty much all of it.
Damn but Orla Brady looks good for 61!
Agreed on all counts.
Last episode had a little more forward momentum. I'm hoping all the various historical ST reference aren't just for the fans and have some bearing on the actual plot.
Spoiler:
It's definitely looking like the theory about Jurati being the Queen from the opening episode is much more likely now.
The queen was definitely going to be Someone or there was no point in masking her. While it seems obvious now, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they pull a fake out twist at near the last minute and swap them out. Heck, maybe the queen ends up being “no one” and the mask was just to make you Think it was a someone. That’s probably giving them too much credit though.
its not totally out of the realm of reality. Consider that the Borg are a collective, perhaps the massive revolution that comes to them is to remove the concept of a host queen body and have a true neutral construct that is purely the will of the many. Perhaps the Borg have always had this weakness that those at the absolute top can have too much "will" at directing the greater whole. Perhaps also the greater whole corrupts and damages their organic thinking.
The "Queen" could indeed be totally a machine that is fully the sum of all the Borg. Every whim and desire not just those guided by a single host body.
It also announces that its the final chapter too! I wonder if my earlier prediction might be right? That season 1 was Picard lost in his present; Season 2 is Picard lost in his past and Season 3 is Picard lost in his future.
Certainly even before we hit the end we can see that there's some trauma or event in his past that's gnawing at him outside of the time travel issues.
End of Season 1 he had found a place for himself in the present once more; end of season 2 he should reconcile his past; season 3 might well be where he goes and where he and perhaps the Federation are heading for a future
Odd thing to announce, given he was already in Picard Season 1 and Season 2.
Would he be playing Data again? I hope not. I found Data's send off at the end of Picard Season 1 to be really quite poignant; a good payoff to Nemesis, not that that film really earned it.
Odd thing to announce, given he was already in Picard Season 1 and Season 2.
Would he be playing Data again? I hope not. I found Data's send off at the end of Picard Season 1 to be really quite poignant; a good payoff to Nemesis, not that that film really earned it.
they proably just wanted to confirm he's gonna be there otherwise welll.. you know how fans are.
AduroT wrote: It’s almost like they forgot he’s a robot while still talking about him being a robot.
But is he not an organic robot that can be damaged, getting old, and die as any human? It kinda explains why they treat him like a living person despite knowing he is not a 'real' human anymore.
I mean, there’s hyper realistic robot body that you jury rigged to still die of old age, and then there’s bleeding and heart arrhythmia and taking the robot to a medical doctor to be treated and not even telling the doctor they’re a robot. I’m not really sure you’re actually a robot at that point.
Ok so the one thing that irritates me is the Disney style song in the middle, if just because the band started playing along and I'm left thinking "Really, does that really EVER actually happen that someone starts singing and the band just joins in without any prompt, direction or anything."
THAT part aside a really interesting episode! I love the layers within layers that we've got going on. Was Q ever after Picard in the first place, or was his whole intention to mess up the creation of the super-human project and change how that influenced the timeline. Considering that its one of the big events from this time line that sets the stage for the creation of the first Warp capable ship and all.
Or is this all a byproject of his losing his powers and perhaps losing his capacity to see the results of his own meddling and making a mess of his own mess?
Picard being stuck in his own mind is interesting and perhaps we'll now get some answers as to the past that has been plaguing him through the series so far.
The Borg Queen is also making her play, having escaped the party and now taken over the new body. It's interesting to see her acting so "alive" and individual.
So now we have multiple agents in the story. Q messing up time; the Watcher (and whoever her handlers are); Picard trying to fix things in the middle and deal with his own demons; the Borg Queen clearly out to infest the world and resume a plan that started in First Contact; Dr Soonian and his first creation who could both have their own agendas going forward.
This episode put a LOT of parts into motion all at once!
beast_gts wrote: So, apparently Spock's new canonical full name is
Spoiler:
S’chn T’Gain Spock
I question why they felt this was nesscarily
Back in the early 2000s Marvel gave Wolverine a full origin story after 27 years of ambiguity because the X-Men movie was successful and they knew that if they didn't give him an official origin the movie studio would.
So they felt it was necessary because movie/tv producers don't have much respect for whatever came before and want to have as much control over a property as possible. They get to say, "We named Spock. No one had given his full name till now. We did that."
beast_gts wrote: So, apparently Spock's new canonical full name is
Spoiler:
S’chn T’Gain Spock
I question why they felt this was nesscarily
Back in the early 2000s Marvel gave Wolverine a full origin story after 27 years of ambiguity because the X-Men movie was successful and they knew that if they didn't give him an official origin the movie studio would.
So they felt it was necessary because movie/tv producers don't have much respect for whatever came before and want to have as much control over a property as possible. They get to say, "We named Spock. No one had given his full name till now. We did that."
Frankly its a bit of an anomaly, Vulcans were stated to have family names as early as TOS but the blanket explanation that they're difficult for humans to pronounce has prevented anyone, even other vulcans, from every saying a vulcan's family name on screen in all these decades of TV.
This fellow sums up perfectly why a lot of these modern shows and movies aren't so great. And the use of Old trek to do it really hammers in how bad a lot of this new stuff has been in comparison to the old.
One thing that struck me was the difference between "running like a drunken puppy" vs. "Running with purpose." I hadn't notice that until he pointed it out.
Sums up a lot of my feelings too. Watching the first of the new Original Series Films I could never work out why this upstart teenager was given command of a starship when he's basically spent most of the film being an upstart teenager, showing no special skills other than being disobedient.
A fact that's clearly so obvious that they have to create a shield character for him who keeps promoting him to captain out of almost pure faith and his apparent high rank in Starfleet enough that he can just veto anyone and give a random teen ship command.
Overread wrote: Sums up a lot of my feelings too. Watching the first of the new Original Series Films I could never work out why this upstart teenager was given command of a starship when he's basically spent most of the film being an upstart teenager, showing no special skills other than being disobedient.
A fact that's clearly so obvious that they have to create a shield character for him who keeps promoting him to captain out of almost pure faith and his apparent high rank in Starfleet enough that he can just veto anyone and give a random teen ship command.
I felt the same way. 2009 was a very different time for me. For starters I was 22 years old back then and a wildly different person. But I remember leaving the theater after seeing the film and being sorely disappointed at what's I'd seen. You know, a lot of modern stuff has moved away from the positive and hopeful vibe of Star Trek. I've been rewatching SG-1 lately and even Stargate makes it abundantly clear right off the the bat that Humanity has great potential and that even a race as old and revered as the Asgard are impressed with how far we've come. I haven't felt this vibe from Discovery or Picard. In fact, I've really felt that both of those shows and the newer films have been trying to do everything they can to avoid that.
Togusa wrote: This fellow sums up perfectly why a lot of these modern shows and movies aren't so great. And the use of Old trek to do it really hammers in how bad a lot of this new stuff has been in comparison to the old.
I go back to all the Star Trek shows (besides TOS because I can't stand it) and barring stand-out episodes (and DS9 as a series), masterpieces they are not. When a friend decided to get into watching ST this past year they asked if they should watch all of TNG and a fellow Trekkie and I laughed. We told them they should stick to very specific episodes because so much of TNG is not good. JLP does nice speeches and Riker does some funnies but it has nowhere near the consistency of DS9. I would even place Enterprise (apart from the opening theme) above TNG for my favourite Trek shows because of how patchy TNG can be even in its later seasons.
I'd also like to point out that the characters in older Trek fall into the category of never getting told off for stuff. Captains and their crew break the Prime Directive all the time, hell Sisko uses biogenic weapons on a Maquis colony and suffers not a single on-screen consequence.
Trek shows reflect the generation they are made in.
I like DS9 and OS the best - but they are very different shows - I donlt mind Next gen as a whole but dislike characters and epsiodes. Enterprise is pretty meh - except for an awesome Mirror Universe 2 part and Voyager about the same - except for some reason it never had a Mirror Episode - guess that was too much fun.....
Discovery is plain awful and Picard is not too bad.
Plenty of other Sci-fi shows with "hope" watch Lost in Space, The Expanse and Stargate
I could never work out why this upstart teenager was given command of a starship when he's basically spent most of the film being an upstart teenager, showing no special skills other than being disobedient. A fact that's clearly so obvious that they have to create a shield character for him who keeps promoting him to captain out of almost pure faith and his apparent high rank in Starfleet enough that he can just veto anyone and give a random teen ship command.
Bit like giving Raffy command cos Picard is her friend....an unstable, panicky captain....good choice
Togusa wrote: This fellow sums up perfectly why a lot of these modern shows and movies aren't so great. And the use of Old trek to do it really hammers in how bad a lot of this new stuff has been in comparison to the old.
I go back to all the Star Trek shows (besides TOS because I can't stand it) and barring stand-out episodes (and DS9 as a series), masterpieces they are not. When a friend decided to get into watching ST this past year they asked if they should watch all of TNG and a fellow Trekkie and I laughed. We told them they should stick to very specific episodes because so much of TNG is not good. JLP does nice speeches and Riker does some funnies but it has nowhere near the consistency of DS9. I would even place Enterprise (apart from the opening theme) above TNG for my favourite Trek shows because of how patchy TNG can be even in its later seasons.
I'd also like to point out that the characters in older Trek fall into the category of never getting told off for stuff. Captains and their crew break the Prime Directive all the time, hell Sisko uses biogenic weapons on a Maquis colony and suffers not a single on-screen consequence.
Perfection doesn't exist. Personally, I re-watch from start to finish TNG, Voyager and DS9 at least once a year and have for over two decades. But! That's just it right? We're all different in what we like so it's not surprising there is a spectrum of opinions on it. Personally I love the first two seasons of DS9, which to my understanding the "community" consensus is that it's awful.
I like the way Fry puts it in the Star Trek episode of Futurama;
"You know. 1966? 79 episodes, about 30 good ones."
I think that's a pretty good spitball honestly, especially for TOS and TNG. Only about half to just under half the episodes are good. Maybe a dozen or so are truly fantastic. DS9 I think generally managed to have more good episodes but still only has maybe a dozen or so fantastic ones. Milage may vary based on how fun/annoying you find the Ferengi episodes.
Then you get to the rest of the franchise VOY and onward, and those numbers drop significantly. I'd dare challenge that Voyager only has a dozen or so good episodes and honestly I can only think of four or five I'd call fantastic. Enterprise is even worse cause I think out of its entire run it never really managed to be good. Only passable at best.
Discovery and Picard couldn't even hold my interest so... yeah...
There has never been a good episode of Picard or Discovery. At least with TNG and the rest, there might be a schlocky episode, but at least you could enjoy it, warts and all.
Whatever this is, this nu-trek, is an abomination worthy of a Sam Neil scream.
LordofHats wrote: I like the way Fry puts it in the Star Trek episode of Futurama;
"You know. 1966? 79 episodes, about 30 good ones."
I think that's a pretty good spitball honestly, especially for TOS and TNG. Only about half to just under half the episodes are good. Maybe a dozen or so are truly fantastic. DS9 I think generally managed to have more good episodes but still only has maybe a dozen or so fantastic ones. Milage may vary based on how fun/annoying you find the Ferengi episodes.
Then you get to the rest of the franchise VOY and onward, and those numbers drop significantly. I'd dare challenge that Voyager only has a dozen or so good episodes and honestly I can only think of four or five I'd call fantastic. Enterprise is even worse cause I think out of its entire run it never really managed to be good. Only passable at best.
Discovery and Picard couldn't even hold my interest so... yeah...
After watching the video I shared, I rewatched the SNW trailer and I have a deep fear now that it will have the exact same issues as the other two shows. There was a lot of questionable childish behavior in the trailer.
This fellow sums up perfectly why a lot of these modern shows and movies aren't so great. And the use of Old trek to do it really hammers in how bad a lot of this new stuff has been in comparison to the old.
One thing that struck me was the difference between "running like a drunken puppy" vs. "Running with purpose." I hadn't notice that until he pointed it out.
I can't stand this guy and had to cut him off after the first minute or so, but I do think there's a certain irony in a guy pretending to be a rambling, incoherent drunk lamenting the level of maturity present in popular fiction.
A random thought: Star Trek often addressed the politics, issues, and morals of its day. For all of us who grew up with TOS, TNG, and/or DS9, are we now so old that we are on the "wrong" side of the politics/morals/issues that today's Star Trek is addressing? And is that why some people don't like modern Star Trek?
Anyway, that aside, I also feel Star Trek is facing the same issues that other fan-favorite properties are facing: The fans who grew up with the property are now old enough to be in control of that property. It's one thing to be a professional writer who has written a sci-fi story that is sold and turned into a Star Trek episode. It's another to be a writer who is writing specifically Star Trek stories because they grew up with Star Trek and are writing the Star Trek stories they always dreamed of.
Tannhauser42 wrote: A random thought: Star Trek often addressed the politics, issues, and morals of its day. For all of us who grew up with TOS, TNG, and/or DS9, are we now so old that we are on the "wrong" side of the politics/morals/issues that today's Star Trek is addressing? And is that why some people don't like modern Star Trek?
I think it's less the side of politics (though that complaint certainly gets made) and more the tenore of the shows themselves.
The first episode of Picard actually fits perfectly with what I'd complain about. Star Trek already did a 9/11 moment during the lead-up to and during the Dominion War. We already saw the ideals and faith of the Federation get shaken and the whole point, because Star Trek is supposed to be optimistic, was that the Federation endured those challenges even if it wasn't pretty.
Fast forward to the start of Picard, and it's just this bleak tenor to things, with a gak eating reporter, Star Fleet failing to adhere to any of its ideals, and the Federation becoming a parody of itself. The opening of Picard just killed the show for me in more ways than one but this one probably hurt me the most. Picard wasn't some uppity grandpa unwilling to be pragmatic. Picard was the higher voice of reason and idealism. While I'm sure the show ultimately comes back around to Picard doing a Picard speech and saving the day, the overall tone of the world around him just didn't interest me in a Star Trek show. I feel like the show's political tone was explicitly catering itself my way even and I really just don't care because it was as subtle as a sledgehammer on a strawberry.
Star Trek isn't written like this anymore;
It's a small but surprisingly deep moment. The kind that makes you wonder even if you don't agree with the message. It's also a sort of timeless question, not one precipitously mired in the present-day drum and fads of political rhetoric. This episode is from 1991 and speaks more to the struggles of our times than anything in Discovery or Picard.
Modern Star Trek is just bleak and edge lordy. The series' has abandoned soft-spoken moral Aesops and commentary to be a spectacle banazas, and not a particularly well thought out one. There's no exploration of complex problems or ideals to live up to. Picard used to give lessons of the week on TNG every week and he was less mind-numbingly preachy than Discovery or Picard whenever Discovery or Picard check their watch and decide it's time to be inspired instead of just pew pew lazor beams pews.
Anyway, that aside, I also feel Star Trek is facing the same issues that other fan-favorite properties are facing: The fans who grew up with the property are now old enough to be in control of that property.
I keep bringing it up because I can't really not see it anymore.
It honestly feels like the people writing Star Trek now were the people who made Star Trek: Renegades, a very edgy fan film that had; Dilithium becoming a scarce resource precipitating the weakening of the Federation, Khan having a daughter, Romulans being stupidly capable despite their planet being exploded, and the Borg becoming less evil.
It was a god-awful movie. It was cool that fans could put something like it together but it's plot was awful and I'm seeing many of its plot points reappear in newer Trek shows while generally being just as awful as Renegades. Maybe it is a case of inmates taking over the asylum. Maybe there's just no interesting in making a show like classic Trek anymore, which I'd question. I'm really tired of all TV shows being about high stakes secret conspiracies and every character being an unlikable prick with a heart of gold (that is usually just a crock of gak). I'd really like someone to make a TV show with a little less pomp and a little more patient confidence.
Basically, can we have more shows like Peacemaker and Arcane and less garbage like Discovery please?
Tannhauser42 wrote: A random thought: Star Trek often addressed the politics, issues, and morals of its day. For all of us who grew up with TOS, TNG, and/or DS9, are we now so old that we are on the "wrong" side of the politics/morals/issues that today's Star Trek is addressing? And is that why some people don't like modern Star Trek?
Maybe a bit, but then again maybe not? That's a tricky question to tackle.
On the one hand, I have definitely seen people harp on discovery for its delivery of certain political topics even if they nominally agree with the message they try to make. There's a noticeable difference in the way the show treats Stamets in season 1 of the show compared with season 4, for example; and a lot of that seems to be the difference between the producers wanting to pat themselves on the back for finally including a positive gay character in Star Trek, versus the writers wanting to have a full, robust character.
edit (brain scattered, sorry): On the other hand, it isn't just that you were on the 'right' or 'wrong' side of a political or moral issue when you were younger. What you were though, was more willing to have your viewpoint challenged. I guarantee there were times you went in to a star trek episode thinking one thing about a moral issue, had that idea challenged by the episode dealing with the topic in metaphor, and only really had your actual viewpoint on the issue itself change as your worked out the metaphor on your way out. And even if it ultimately didn't change your mind that time, the writers would take another crack at you next week.
It's been documented that part of getting older is you become more set in your ways, less willing to have the comfortable assumptions you build your life around be rattled by someone on the outside saying something against it. We get comfortable with things being a certain way and when that thing is threatened we dread becoming uncomfortable - having an open mind gets harder as we go, and it becomes something we have to consciously do.
Fair point about the fans and Renegades, I love Axanar (check it out!) but even there you can see there's this little voice in the Trek fandom that craves military sci fi, what with the lasers and the explosions and everybody snapping salutes and making speeches about how great their culture is, etc.
I don't get why people are saying Picard the show lost it's hopefulness.
He outright says things can get better, that while it can be bad now doesn't mean it is going to stay bad.
This story is about them working on making sure hopefulness can stay alive as Picard said, sometimes the bad conditions are a catalyst for the new
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tannhauser42 wrote: A random thought: Star Trek often addressed the politics, issues, and morals of its day. For all of us who grew up with TOS, TNG, and/or DS9, are we now so old that we are on the "wrong" side of the politics/morals/issues that today's Star Trek is addressing? And is that why some people don't like modern Star Trek?
There is an decent amount of people who grew up watching shows with these messages, then in adulthood have completely different ideals, but because they didn't realize those messages, are now thinking they shows became political. Like the X-Men fans who are upset it's woke.
It doesn help that these shows are under scrutiny constantly by culture war bs.
The difference with Picard is that the positive events don't appear in force until the end. In contrast even in DS9 most episodes would end on a positive event, with rarer events ending in the negative to then be resolved typically in the very next episode.
Picard just isn't episodic events and storytelling so it can feel like a huge depressing beatdown in the early parts, but then that sets the stage for the glorious events in the latter part.
It also looks at the underbelly of things more closely than other seasons; again even in DS9 some of the negative elements can still have a neutral to upbeat edge to them. Picard very much doens't have that feeling.
I think some of those who dislike it might like it better if seen more like a film in one long session instead of broken up where you have to wait a whole week between episodes and a few months to get the whole story.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I don't get why people are saying Picard the show lost it's hopefulness.
He outright says things can get better, that while it can be bad now doesn't mean it is going to stay bad.
This story is about them working on making sure hopefulness can stay alive as Picard said, sometimes the bad conditions are a catalyst for the new
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tannhauser42 wrote: A random thought: Star Trek often addressed the politics, issues, and morals of its day. For all of us who grew up with TOS, TNG, and/or DS9, are we now so old that we are on the "wrong" side of the politics/morals/issues that today's Star Trek is addressing? And is that why some people don't like modern Star Trek?
There is an decent amount of people who grew up watching shows with these messages, then in adulthood have completely different ideals, but because they didn't realize those messages, are now thinking they shows became political. Like the X-Men fans who are upset it's woke.
It doesn help that these shows are under scrutiny constantly by culture war bs.
Talking about one of the most thoughtful, intelligent and tempered characters in the history of the franchise beheading Sarak of Vulcan on the steps of the Vulcan Academy of Science is one of the most offensive things you could do to a character. It's just gross.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I don't get why people are saying Picard the show lost it's hopefulness.
He outright says things can get better, that while it can be bad now doesn't mean it is going to stay bad.
This story is about them working on making sure hopefulness can stay alive as Picard said, sometimes the bad conditions are a catalyst for the new
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tannhauser42 wrote: A random thought: Star Trek often addressed the politics, issues, and morals of its day. For all of us who grew up with TOS, TNG, and/or DS9, are we now so old that we are on the "wrong" side of the politics/morals/issues that today's Star Trek is addressing? And is that why some people don't like modern Star Trek?
There is an decent amount of people who grew up watching shows with these messages, then in adulthood have completely different ideals, but because they didn't realize those messages, are now thinking they shows became political. Like the X-Men fans who are upset it's woke.
It doesn help that these shows are under scrutiny constantly by culture war bs.
Talking about one of the most thoughtful, intelligent and tempered characters in the history of the franchise beheading Sarak of Vulcan on the steps of the Vulcan Academy of Science is one of the most offensive things you could do to a character. It's just gross.
Yes that's why its a shock-alternate reality. That's why Picard is fighting so hard (along with the others) to restore the timeline. Because they are in a hellish one otherwise.
Don't forget you're talking about the same character who, if the Borg got their way, would become the de-factor second in command. Who was part of the collective intended to take over and infest the entire Federation. He's already been there, done that and got the implants. Heck the Borg plaguing his mind was a huge part of First Contact.
Heck part of this story line is that something might be wrong with Q as well, we've seen him behaving with a much darker tone than normal.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I don't get why people are saying Picard the show lost it's hopefulness. He outright says things can get better, that while it can be bad now doesn't mean it is going to stay bad. This story is about them working on making sure hopefulness can stay alive as Picard said, sometimes the bad conditions are a catalyst for the new
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tannhauser42 wrote: A random thought: Star Trek often addressed the politics, issues, and morals of its day. For all of us who grew up with TOS, TNG, and/or DS9, are we now so old that we are on the "wrong" side of the politics/morals/issues that today's Star Trek is addressing? And is that why some people don't like modern Star Trek?
There is an decent amount of people who grew up watching shows with these messages, then in adulthood have completely different ideals, but because they didn't realize those messages, are now thinking they shows became political. Like the X-Men fans who are upset it's woke. It doesn help that these shows are under scrutiny constantly by culture war bs.
Talking about one of the most thoughtful, intelligent and tempered characters in the history of the franchise beheading Sarak of Vulcan on the steps of the Vulcan Academy of Science is one of the most offensive things you could do to a character. It's just gross.
Yes that's why its a shock-alternate reality. That's why Picard is fighting so hard (along with the others) to restore the timeline. Because they are in a hellish one otherwise.
Don't forget you're talking about the same character who, if the Borg got their way, would become the de-factor second in command. Who was part of the collective intended to take over and infest the entire Federation. He's already been there, done that and got the implants. Heck the Borg plaguing his mind was a huge part of First Contact.
Heck part of this story line is that something might be wrong with Q as well, we've seen him behaving with a much darker tone than normal.
To me, it just feels like they're attempting to tear down popular characters for "reasons." They did it to Luke. They did it to Sarah Connor. Now it's Picard's turn. What I would have liked to have seen was a sort of new "The Next Generation." New Ship. New Crew set in the early 25th century. Have maybe a scene with a character helping Admiral Picard to his shuttle with Dr. Crusher al a the way Data was escorting Bones in the first episode of TNG and then moving on. So many properties today seem hellbent on reimaging things we've already done. Paramount had a rich set of lore to draw from after Voyager ended and they used almost none of it. I saw a comment on a post or video somewhere else (can't quite remember) but it basically said that the poster felt as though all of these new shows exist solely for the reason of filling "content" space for Paramount+ and nothing more. That's why they feel so hollow and uninspired.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I don't get why people are saying Picard the show lost it's hopefulness.
He outright says things can get better, that while it can be bad now doesn't mean it is going to stay bad.
This story is about them working on making sure hopefulness can stay alive as Picard said, sometimes the bad conditions are a catalyst for the new
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tannhauser42 wrote: A random thought: Star Trek often addressed the politics, issues, and morals of its day. For all of us who grew up with TOS, TNG, and/or DS9, are we now so old that we are on the "wrong" side of the politics/morals/issues that today's Star Trek is addressing? And is that why some people don't like modern Star Trek?
There is an decent amount of people who grew up watching shows with these messages, then in adulthood have completely different ideals, but because they didn't realize those messages, are now thinking they shows became political. Like the X-Men fans who are upset it's woke.
It doesn help that these shows are under scrutiny constantly by culture war bs.
Talking about one of the most thoughtful, intelligent and tempered characters in the history of the franchise beheading Sarak of Vulcan on the steps of the Vulcan Academy of Science is one of the most offensive things you could do to a character. It's just gross.
Plenty worse in Mirror Universe - which is why the Confederation is just "shrug" for me.
Although its notable that cutting people's throats is fine by Raffy and even amusing....provoking merely "stop showing off" - but she is awful throughout.
Also sci-fi these days is playing catch up to mainstream drama - Hey look we have a (single and often unique) fat character, a gay character, a bi character - look at us - please!
I think it will turn out Q is dying and pinning after Picard as his true love.....or not....
hotsauceman1 wrote: I don't get why people are saying Picard the show lost it's hopefulness.
He outright says things can get better, that while it can be bad now doesn't mean it is going to stay bad.
This story is about them working on making sure hopefulness can stay alive as Picard said, sometimes the bad conditions are a catalyst for the new
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tannhauser42 wrote: A random thought: Star Trek often addressed the politics, issues, and morals of its day. For all of us who grew up with TOS, TNG, and/or DS9, are we now so old that we are on the "wrong" side of the politics/morals/issues that today's Star Trek is addressing? And is that why some people don't like modern Star Trek?
There is an decent amount of people who grew up watching shows with these messages, then in adulthood have completely different ideals, but because they didn't realize those messages, are now thinking they shows became political. Like the X-Men fans who are upset it's woke.
It doesn help that these shows are under scrutiny constantly by culture war bs.
Talking about one of the most thoughtful, intelligent and tempered characters in the history of the franchise beheading Sarak of Vulcan on the steps of the Vulcan Academy of Science is one of the most offensive things you could do to a character. It's just gross.
Plenty worse in Mirror Universe - which is why the Confederation is just "shrug" for me.
Although its notable that cutting people's throats is fine by Raffy and even amusing....provoking merely "stop showing off" - but she is awful throughout.
Also sci-fi these days is playing catch up to mainstream drama - Hey look we have a (single and often unique) fat character, a gay character, a bi character - look at us - please!
I think it will turn out Q is dying and pinning after Picard as his true love.....or not....
To me the sad part there is that a lot of the diversity characters we're given aren't good representations of their diversity. A person who acts gakky and has no honor, or skirts responsibility for their actions is a gakky person, no matter if they're straight and White or Black and Trans. It's a disservice to us all, but doubly so to the communities these characters are supposed to represent.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I don't get why people are saying Picard the show lost it's hopefulness.
He outright says things can get better, that while it can be bad now doesn't mean it is going to stay bad.
This story is about them working on making sure hopefulness can stay alive as Picard said, sometimes the bad conditions are a catalyst for the new
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tannhauser42 wrote: A random thought: Star Trek often addressed the politics, issues, and morals of its day. For all of us who grew up with TOS, TNG, and/or DS9, are we now so old that we are on the "wrong" side of the politics/morals/issues that today's Star Trek is addressing? And is that why some people don't like modern Star Trek?
There is an decent amount of people who grew up watching shows with these messages, then in adulthood have completely different ideals, but because they didn't realize those messages, are now thinking they shows became political. Like the X-Men fans who are upset it's woke.
It doesn help that these shows are under scrutiny constantly by culture war bs.
Talking about one of the most thoughtful, intelligent and tempered characters in the history of the franchise beheading Sarak of Vulcan on the steps of the Vulcan Academy of Science is one of the most offensive things you could do to a character. It's just gross.
Yes that's why its a shock-alternate reality. That's why Picard is fighting so hard (along with the others) to restore the timeline. Because they are in a hellish one otherwise.
Don't forget you're talking about the same character who, if the Borg got their way, would become the de-factor second in command. Who was part of the collective intended to take over and infest the entire Federation. He's already been there, done that and got the implants. Heck the Borg plaguing his mind was a huge part of First Contact.
Heck part of this story line is that something might be wrong with Q as well, we've seen him behaving with a much darker tone than normal.
To me, it just feels like they're attempting to tear down popular characters for "reasons." They did it to Luke. They did it to Sarah Connor. Now it's Picard's turn.
What I would have liked to have seen was a sort of new "The Next Generation." New Ship. New Crew set in the early 25th century. Have maybe a scene with a character helping Admiral Picard to his shuttle with Dr. Crusher al a the way Data was escorting Bones in the first episode of TNG and then moving on. So many properties today seem hellbent on reimaging things we've already done. Paramount had a rich set of lore to draw from after Voyager ended and they used almost none of it. I saw a comment on a post or video somewhere else (can't quite remember) but it basically said that the poster felt as though all of these new shows exist solely for the reason of filling "content" space for Paramount+ and nothing more. That's why they feel so hollow and uninspired.
They aren't tearing down Picard. We've not even met the alternate timeline Picard, we only have his action as historical reference from one episode. Picard in ALL the episodes is the man we know from TNG. He hasn't committed genocide or anything else, he's played the part of a bloodthirsty general for a few moments of deception to steal the queen and then jump back in time.
This is totally different to where Luke Skywalker fell from being a hero which was an actual change to his character. One I'd argue was not a bad thing, save that it was done fully off-screen. Ideally they should have made the first new film all about that event and how it affected him so that we could go along with the journey instead of seeing him broken at the end, which was a huge flaw, but then the story telling in the last 3 films was not its strong point (hampered heavily by them not even having a unified script or story for all 3 films)
And what you are after isn't the Picard series, but TNG 2. Which I get, I'd love to see TNG done now with the original cast stepping aside for new blood and new adventures in that style. However Picard seasons 1 and 2 never set themselves up to be that kind of story. Perhaps end of Season 3 (which is set to be the end) we might see something like that; or at least see the groundwork setout
hotsauceman1 wrote: I don't get why people are saying Picard the show lost it's hopefulness. He outright says things can get better, that while it can be bad now doesn't mean it is going to stay bad. This story is about them working on making sure hopefulness can stay alive as Picard said, sometimes the bad conditions are a catalyst for the new
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tannhauser42 wrote: A random thought: Star Trek often addressed the politics, issues, and morals of its day. For all of us who grew up with TOS, TNG, and/or DS9, are we now so old that we are on the "wrong" side of the politics/morals/issues that today's Star Trek is addressing? And is that why some people don't like modern Star Trek?
There is an decent amount of people who grew up watching shows with these messages, then in adulthood have completely different ideals, but because they didn't realize those messages, are now thinking they shows became political. Like the X-Men fans who are upset it's woke. It doesn help that these shows are under scrutiny constantly by culture war bs.
Talking about one of the most thoughtful, intelligent and tempered characters in the history of the franchise beheading Sarak of Vulcan on the steps of the Vulcan Academy of Science is one of the most offensive things you could do to a character. It's just gross.
Yes that's why its a shock-alternate reality. That's why Picard is fighting so hard (along with the others) to restore the timeline. Because they are in a hellish one otherwise.
Don't forget you're talking about the same character who, if the Borg got their way, would become the de-factor second in command. Who was part of the collective intended to take over and infest the entire Federation. He's already been there, done that and got the implants. Heck the Borg plaguing his mind was a huge part of First Contact.
Heck part of this story line is that something might be wrong with Q as well, we've seen him behaving with a much darker tone than normal.
To me, it just feels like they're attempting to tear down popular characters for "reasons." They did it to Luke. They did it to Sarah Connor. Now it's Picard's turn. What I would have liked to have seen was a sort of new "The Next Generation." New Ship. New Crew set in the early 25th century. Have maybe a scene with a character helping Admiral Picard to his shuttle with Dr. Crusher al a the way Data was escorting Bones in the first episode of TNG and then moving on. So many properties today seem hellbent on reimaging things we've already done. Paramount had a rich set of lore to draw from after Voyager ended and they used almost none of it. I saw a comment on a post or video somewhere else (can't quite remember) but it basically said that the poster felt as though all of these new shows exist solely for the reason of filling "content" space for Paramount+ and nothing more. That's why they feel so hollow and uninspired.
They aren't tearing down Picard. We've not even met the alternate timeline Picard, we only have his action as historical reference from one episode. Picard in ALL the episodes is the man we know from TNG. He hasn't committed genocide or anything else, he's played the part of a bloodthirsty general for a few moments of deception to steal the queen and then jump back in time.
This is totally different to where Luke Skywalker fell from being a hero which was an actual change to his character. One I'd argue was not a bad thing, save that it was done fully off-screen. Ideally they should have made the first new film all about that event and how it affected him so that we could go along with the journey instead of seeing him broken at the end, which was a huge flaw, but then the story telling in the last 3 films was not its strong point (hampered heavily by them not even having a unified script or story for all 3 films)
And what you are after isn't the Picard series, but TNG 2. Which I get, I'd love to see TNG done now with the original cast stepping aside for new blood and new adventures in that style. However Picard seasons 1 and 2 never set themselves up to be that kind of story. Perhaps end of Season 3 (which is set to be the end) we might see something like that; or at least see the groundwork setout
As long as Kurtzman has anything to do with it, I doubt we will get anything of value. S3 is the biggest bunch of memberberries I've ever seen. To announce it when the current season isn't even finished is very telling of the fact that the show isn't doing as well as they'd hoped and they're trying to build hype to get viewership to the level they want it to be at. I don't really want TNG 2. It's more the concept I'm interested in, the way that TNG moved on from TOS without striking it from the history, doing it's own thing in a new century, with a new cast and crew. That's TNG-like. But I want it to do it's own thing and continue the journey in new and exciting ways.
At the moment, the only way I'm getting this is with my weekly running of my STA RPG group. Which is fine I guess.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I don't get why people are saying Picard the show lost it's hopefulness.
He outright says things can get better, that while it can be bad now doesn't mean it is going to stay bad.
This story is about them working on making sure hopefulness can stay alive as Picard said, sometimes the bad conditions are a catalyst for the new
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tannhauser42 wrote: A random thought: Star Trek often addressed the politics, issues, and morals of its day. For all of us who grew up with TOS, TNG, and/or DS9, are we now so old that we are on the "wrong" side of the politics/morals/issues that today's Star Trek is addressing? And is that why some people don't like modern Star Trek?
There is an decent amount of people who grew up watching shows with these messages, then in adulthood have completely different ideals, but because they didn't realize those messages, are now thinking they shows became political. Like the X-Men fans who are upset it's woke.
It doesn help that these shows are under scrutiny constantly by culture war bs.
Talking about one of the most thoughtful, intelligent and tempered characters in the history of the franchise beheading Sarak of Vulcan on the steps of the Vulcan Academy of Science is one of the most offensive things you could do to a character. It's just gross.
Plenty worse in Mirror Universe - which is why the Confederation is just "shrug" for me.
Although its notable that cutting people's throats is fine by Raffy and even amusing....provoking merely "stop showing off" - but she is awful throughout.
Also sci-fi these days is playing catch up to mainstream drama - Hey look we have a (single and often unique) fat character, a gay character, a bi character - look at us - please!
I think it will turn out Q is dying and pinning after Picard as his true love.....or not....
To me the sad part there is that a lot of the diversity characters we're given aren't good representations of their diversity. A person who acts gakky and has no honor, or skirts responsibility for their actions is a gakky person, no matter if they're straight and White or Black and Trans. It's a disservice to us all, but doubly so to the communities these characters are supposed to represent.
Yeah there should be evil "diverse" characters as well as good and in between - but you do get idiots who whine if someone from a group is depcited in a nagative way - usually they are doing it "on behalf of a group" which is in itself often insulting - again Trek is behind mainstream drama and (comedy) in this.
Togusa wrote: Talking about one of the most thoughtful, intelligent and tempered characters in the history of the franchise beheading Sarak of Vulcan on the steps of the Vulcan Academy of Science is one of the most offensive things you could do to a character. It's just gross.
That's the point though? The whole point of this alternate timeline is to show how bad it is so you take the best people and turn them into monsters. Did you just not watch any of the Mirror Universe stuff or see any alternate timeline episodes of any TV show ever?
Togusa wrote: Talking about one of the most thoughtful, intelligent and tempered characters in the history of the franchise beheading Sarak of Vulcan on the steps of the Vulcan Academy of Science is one of the most offensive things you could do to a character. It's just gross.
That's the point though? The whole point of this alternate timeline is to show how bad it is so you take the best people and turn them into monsters. Did you just not watch any of the Mirror Universe stuff or see any alternate timeline episodes of any TV show ever?
I've never liked that part of Trek. I intentionally skip all the mirror universe episodes of the 90s shows because I just do not like them. But I do understand the point, it's just not sitting with me on a personal level.
Togusa wrote: Talking about one of the most thoughtful, intelligent and tempered characters in the history of the franchise beheading Sarak of Vulcan on the steps of the Vulcan Academy of Science is one of the most offensive things you could do to a character. It's just gross.
That's the point though? The whole point of this alternate timeline is to show how bad it is so you take the best people and turn them into monsters. Did you just not watch any of the Mirror Universe stuff or see any alternate timeline episodes of any TV show ever?
I've never liked that part of Trek. I intentionally skip all the mirror universe episodes of the 90s shows because I just do not like them. But I do understand the point, it's just not sitting with me on a personal level.
Mirror universes are my fav - and the cast seem to have great fun.
Togusa wrote: Talking about one of the most thoughtful, intelligent and tempered characters in the history of the franchise beheading Sarak of Vulcan on the steps of the Vulcan Academy of Science is one of the most offensive things you could do to a character. It's just gross.
That's the point though? The whole point of this alternate timeline is to show how bad it is so you take the best people and turn them into monsters. Did you just not watch any of the Mirror Universe stuff or see any alternate timeline episodes of any TV show ever?
I've never liked that part of Trek. I intentionally skip all the mirror universe episodes of the 90s shows because I just do not like them. But I do understand the point, it's just not sitting with me on a personal level.
One thing I like about most mirror and alternate timeline stuff in Star Trek is that at the end of the event its normally back to normal, or near enough. So they are, at least in regular series, often more like a sub-adventure. As noted above sometimes something that just feels fun and fresh for the cast and crew and such.
This being a Q related story gives me confidence that whilst we will go on a rollercoaster, we will come out the end without the new timeline the "new future" (and if it is then you can bet season 3 would be fixing it).
It's one reason the Temporal War felt wrong in the Enterprise series because in general you knew it had to basically end and then vanish to maintain the timeline.
Togusa wrote: Talking about one of the most thoughtful, intelligent and tempered characters in the history of the franchise beheading Sarak of Vulcan on the steps of the Vulcan Academy of Science is one of the most offensive things you could do to a character. It's just gross.
That's the point though? The whole point of this alternate timeline is to show how bad it is so you take the best people and turn them into monsters. Did you just not watch any of the Mirror Universe stuff or see any alternate timeline episodes of any TV show ever?
I've never liked that part of Trek. I intentionally skip all the mirror universe episodes of the 90s shows because I just do not like them. But I do understand the point, it's just not sitting with me on a personal level.
One thing I like about most mirror and alternate timeline stuff in Star Trek is that at the end of the event its normally back to normal, or near enough. So they are, at least in regular series, often more like a sub-adventure. As noted above sometimes something that just feels fun and fresh for the cast and crew and such.
This being a Q related story gives me confidence that whilst we will go on a rollercoaster, we will come out the end without the new timeline the "new future" (and if it is then you can bet season 3 would be fixing it).
It's one reason the Temporal War felt wrong in the Enterprise series because in general you knew it had to basically end and then vanish to maintain the timeline.
Yeah. I did enjoy the DS9 episode where the alternate Shakar tries to steal and Orb. But the others just never really sat well with me.
Togusa wrote: As long as Kurtzman has anything to do with it, I doubt we will get anything of value. S3 is the biggest bunch of memberberries I've ever seen. To announce it when the current season isn't even finished is very telling of the fact that the show isn't doing as well as they'd hoped and they're trying to build hype to get viewership to the level they want it to be at.
What are you babbling on about? S3 was announced either before S2 started to be released, or around the launch of S2, along with confirmation that S3 of Picard would be the final season.
The main thing that is new from recent news is how many of the crew from TNG are due to appear for the first time since Nemesis, even if it sounds like neither Wesley Crusher nor Chief O'Brien will be in it, which is a shame, IMO.
Togusa wrote: As long as Kurtzman has anything to do with it, I doubt we will get anything of value. S3 is the biggest bunch of memberberries I've ever seen. To announce it when the current season isn't even finished is very telling of the fact that the show isn't doing as well as they'd hoped and they're trying to build hype to get viewership to the level they want it to be at.
What are you babbling on about? S3 was announced either before S2 started to be released, or around the launch of S2, along with confirmation that S3 of Picard would be the final season.
The main thing that is new from recent news is how many of the crew from TNG are due to appear for the first time since Nemesis, even if it sounds like neither Wesley Crusher nor Chief O'Brien will be in it, which is a shame, IMO.
Making the announcement of the cast reunion before the current season has even finished premiering seems as though they are trying to build hype because the current season is floundering with the audience. It's literally a "memberberries" style ploy to try and get more folks to sign up or sign back up for Paramount+ because "member LeVar? member Dr. Crusher? member the Enterprise-D? Oh, yeah, I member!" Given that both S1 and S2 have been dumpster fires, and having Patrick in it didn't make it any better, it's easy to speculate that simply bringing back the full cast for some kind of one off adventure won't fair any better. If the material and script is trash, even some of the finest television actors in the world won't be able to save it and make it tolerable. From what I've been reading, a lot of people have abandoned S2 at this point. The current audience score on RT is 48%. That's not looking good.
That or more likely it's taken two successful seasons to work up the budget and interest in previous cast to get them to come back.
As for abandoning season 2 it seems strange considering its pace is speeding up, last episode had some huge revelations and changes and events.
I think its just that its not episodic so you don't have the whole story to judge. If anything it might have done better as a direct season all in one go instead of drip fed weekly episodes. Yes you lose out on the time aspect, but at the same time it would mean people could binge the whole story in one go and see the start, middle and conclusion - we are still very much in the middle.
Overread wrote: That or more likely it's taken two successful seasons to work up the budget and interest in previous cast to get them to come back.
As for abandoning season 2 it seems strange considering its pace is speeding up, last episode had some huge revelations and changes and events.
I think its just that its not episodic so you don't have the whole story to judge. If anything it might have done better as a direct season all in one go instead of drip fed weekly episodes. Yes you lose out on the time aspect, but at the same time it would mean people could binge the whole story in one go and see the start, middle and conclusion - we are still very much in the middle.
I almost feel like Picard would have been a better trilogy of films.
See that's a different problem caused by streaming services needing to have everything on demand always. Being forced to wait is only annoying (rather than say exciting) because we've been spoiled for years by Netflix and Prime or whatever the yanks have. There's no more suspense or intrigue because you can just binge a whole season in a day. I was really disappointed when Netflix released the final season of Last Kingdom all in one go because I watched it once and being able to just blitz through made the experience worse and I didn't enjoy the show as much. With shows that are released weekly, there is time to discuss what's going on with my friends and we can actively enjoy the show together rather than waiting for someone to catch up because they had to work a lot or something.
I find complaints like "but we have no idea whats going on" about shows that are weekly episodes rather than binge dumps to be the funniest because, yeah, that's the whole point.
Overread wrote: That or more likely it's taken two successful seasons to work up the budget and interest in previous cast to get them to come back.
As for abandoning season 2 it seems strange considering its pace is speeding up, last episode had some huge revelations and changes and events.
I think its just that its not episodic so you don't have the whole story to judge. If anything it might have done better as a direct season all in one go instead of drip fed weekly episodes. Yes you lose out on the time aspect, but at the same time it would mean people could binge the whole story in one go and see the start, middle and conclusion - we are still very much in the middle.
I almost feel like Picard would have been a better trilogy of films.
In a way that's what they are.
Honestly we are really only entering the era where its possible to do shows like this in any degree of volume. Most TV series historically were very strong on the weekly episodic formula. Even shows that were held up high often only had a few episodes that directly linked and didn't fit the formula for a weekly one and done episode.
So in a sense I think writers and directors are still learning. One angle is what we've got with Picard where each episode basically runs right into the back of the next. There's some opening and closure at the start and end, but by and large there's no format to each episode to follow; no structure or internal story. Indeed catch one episode out of sequence and it totally fails. Meanwhile something like NCIS you can watch huge chunks out of sequence, even between seasons and you can still work out what's going on because its so episodic.
I feel like something like Picard would work better as 3 films released in one chunk instead of being broken into episodes. Then again being broken into episodes lets them go longer than a single film* and it also creates a LOT of free marketing through chatter during the week between episodes. If its all done in one go then the buzz around it hypes up super fast, but also dies super fast too.
*you wouldn't watch a 5 hour film but you will binge watch a season in one weekend that lasts 10 hours
There is an decent amount of people who grew up watching shows with these messages, then in adulthood have completely different ideals, but because they didn't realize those messages, are now thinking they shows became political. Like the X-Men fans who are upset it's woke.
It doesn help that these shows are under scrutiny constantly by culture war bs.
IMO, it isn't even culture war bs that has so many shows, and media in general under constant scrutiny.
I read an article some weeks back about how many people are "cancelling" bands that have been broken up for 40 years over songs and lyrics they wrote 45+ years ago. The article's writer, an academic though writing in laymen's terms and in a layman's publication, wrote to how they think the evidence points to streaming services being a large part of this "new" dialogue.
Many of us on this forum are old enough to remember the days when you had to watch TNG, thursday night at 9pm, and if you missed it, you better hope they make some mention of that episode next week or you're doomed. Same thing with most music: a new album comes out, it sits at or near the top of many charts for a few weeks to a few months, then sales taper off. Over the course of a couple years, radio airtime for songs on that album dwindle to near nothing, so we "forget" about them.
But now, with streaming, and especially at the beginning of streaming, the draw was "come watch ALL of your favorite old episodes" and "never miss anything again!!" (tho, tbf, that idea was preceded by TiVO, so not entirely unique), and part of the draw was dusting off the really old stuff, digitizing it for posterity and putting it up.
What that article I mentioned goes on about is how young people may hear a song, or see a show and become interested in the larger piece of that thing (ie, Immigrant Song leading to exploring Led Zeppelin, or a short clip leading to a binge of Seinfeld, etc) and because the people who are being introduced to a given media "thing" don't have perhaps some of the knowledge of the way things were when that "thing" was made, they are approaching it with today's views. Streaming has allowed the "old" to become "new" again, because entirely new generations of fans are springing up, with their own takes and modern views on whatever that thing is.
I mean, I think it goes without saying that some stuff, like X-Men, Rage Against the Machine, and things of that nature had, even at their initial release a clear bend to them, and a clear cut message. . . . and I think its obviously safe to say that some vocal folks announce to the world that they never actually got what that bend was, they never got the actual message in the first place, so of course they will say negative things about that stuff now.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Rage Against the Machine, and things of that nature had, even at their initial release a clear bend to them, and a clear cut message. . . . and I think its obviously safe to say that some vocal folks announce to the world that they never actually got what that bend was, they never got the actual message in the first place, so of course they will say negative things about that stuff now.
To my utter befuddlement, I have a 5k upvote comment on Reddit that is nothing but me expressing confusion at someone who didn't know Rage Against the Machine is an explicitly leftist band. It's not a clever comment (it's literally 15 words long) by any measure, but apparently a lot of people shared my 'wtf' at someone who never realized a band named Rage Against the Machine who performed such songs as 'Can't Kill the Revolution,' 'Zapata's Blood' and of course, their own cover of feth the Police had a political attitude baked into its music.
In general, it can be really surprising how frequently people miss the point of a lot of media so I don't think it's a new thing. There are still people who don't get that Dukat was a bad guy.
Lolita (the novel) gets hit with this pretty hard too. Lolita is an extremely difficult novel to qualify, and it contains lurid and extremely politically incorrect content (even by the standards of its time), but the number of people who dismiss the book seemingly on nothing but its title and summary do the work a disservice. Nothing will teach you how to spot a sociopath or false personas faster than reading Lolita. Humbert Humbert isn't the hero, itself something of a lost art as true villain protagonists have become something of a dead concept in modern pop culture, no anti-villains who are just misunderstood don't count. I'm not sure it's even possible to say what Lolita is exactly about (I'd say it was explicitly written to not have an exact point but rather to comprise a range of thoughts that can paint a lot of different pictures depending on how you approach it) except that it's not about glorifying pedophila like a lot of knee jerk reactions think it is.
There's a lot of things we can point too, but honest the first one I'd point to is the illusion of legitimacy created by the Internet. By that, I mean any idiot with the ability to string words together now has a platform and can reach all the other idiots. Thinking about stuff is kind of hard. Talking about it is even harder. It is comparatively, very easy to find something old and make a banal statement about it and then get lots of likes, upvotes, retweets or whatever so long as you cater to an audience. Trivia, and I love trivia don't get me wrong, has overtaken true criticism in the current internet environment.
Pointing out that a TV show from the 70s contains racist stereotypes isn't that clever. I find the whole saga of Speakchucker Jones in M.A.S.H. fascinating sure, but pointing it out isn't exactly a stroke of genius. A banal comment (my own at that) that someone wasn't paying attention if they didn't notice any of Rage Against the Machine's politics will get upvoted to hell despite there being nothing interesting about it. You'd never be able to tell though with how the internet clamors and rewards it.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I don't get why people are saying Picard the show lost it's hopefulness.
He outright says things can get better, that while it can be bad now doesn't mean it is going to stay bad.
This story is about them working on making sure hopefulness can stay alive as Picard said, sometimes the bad conditions are a catalyst for the new
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tannhauser42 wrote: A random thought: Star Trek often addressed the politics, issues, and morals of its day. For all of us who grew up with TOS, TNG, and/or DS9, are we now so old that we are on the "wrong" side of the politics/morals/issues that today's Star Trek is addressing? And is that why some people don't like modern Star Trek?
There is an decent amount of people who grew up watching shows with these messages, then in adulthood have completely different ideals, but because they didn't realize those messages, are now thinking they shows became political. Like the X-Men fans who are upset it's woke.
It doesn help that these shows are under scrutiny constantly by culture war bs.
The trick is to deal with politics or 'wokeness' in an interesting story, rather than allow politics and 'wokeness' as a substitute for an interesting story. For example, if we change the Star Wars OT and replace Luke with a character who is a lesbian, or bi/pansexual of any gender, literally nothing else has to change and the story still plays out the same. If he's gay, the only change is that he's no longer a romantic rival with Han for Leia's affections, a small but noticeable loss to the story unless you make Leia a boy and Han gay as well.
This is the strength of a good story. Changes to race, gender, or orientation do not mandate wholesale changes to remain a good story.
Likewise, just featuring different races, genders, or orientations do not magically make a story good. Bring up the 2001 movie 'Evolution' to woke society and you'll likely hear some complaints about how Orlando Jones got stuck into the typical 'token Black comic relief' stereotype. Then when you point out that John Boyega plays EXACTLY the same role in the sequel trilogy... well, they won't like that very much.
I would think more so Nu Trek like Picard and Discovery handle its politics like worst episodes of TNG and the rest of the bunch, and if anything, worse.
It's like watching a chicken with its head cut off running around and floundering.
When it comes to “KeEp PoLiTiCS oUt Of MeDiA”, just remember behind such nonsense, especially SciFi and Trek in particular which have always been inherently political? And utterly regardless of how a given SciFi critiques or endorses a political leaning? Those first raising are either intensely stupid, or only there to try to sway folk.
And can probably more accurately be described as “I lack the language and critical skills to explain exactly what it is I disagree with, therefore they just shouldn’t do *that*, because only a political leaning I personally endorse should be allowed. Anything else is (delete as appropriate) communism/fascism, but again only because I lack the social skills, language skills and ability to explain nuance to express myself any other way”.
Without mentioning my own political leanings, because they’re irrelevant to this post? I’ll proper cringe at certain artistic visions for its own lack of nuance/subtlety, just as folk on the other end of the political spectrum might do to stuff I happen to enjoy.
Just don’t ever, ever forget or pretend certain shows didn’t push certain boundaries in their own specific heydays. And don’t demand something drop a political lean just because it doesn’t tickle your pickle.
Don’t be Mary Whitehouse. Your telly has not only an off switch, but also a change channel button. Even better? Unlike when I was proper tiddly wee? You don’t even have to get up off your arse to change said channel these days.
Don’t be a bore. You no like? You no watch.
This is why I don’t watch many shows. Because I don’t enjoy them, and I’ve far, far better things to do with my time than first watch a show I don’t like, let alone jump on the internet to bore others by telling them I don’t like it.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: When it comes to “KeEp PoLiTiCS oUt Of MeDiA”, just remember behind such nonsense, especially SciFi and Trek in particular which have always been inherently political? And utterly regardless of how a given SciFi critiques or endorses a political leaning? Those first raising are either intensely stupid, or only there to try to sway folk.
And can probably more accurately be described as “I lack the language and critical skills to explain exactly what it is I disagree with, therefore they just shouldn’t do *that*, because only a political leaning I personally endorse should be allowed. Anything else is (delete as appropriate) communism/fascism, but again only because I lack the social skills, language skills and ability to explain nuance to express myself any other way”.
Without mentioning my own political leanings, because they’re irrelevant to this post? I’ll proper cringe at certain artistic visions for its own lack of nuance/subtlety, just as folk on the other end of the political spectrum might do to stuff I happen to enjoy.
Just don’t ever, ever forget or pretend certain shows didn’t push certain boundaries in their own specific heydays. And don’t demand something drop a political lean just because it doesn’t tickle your pickle.
Don’t be Mary Whitehouse. Your telly has not only an off switch, but also a change channel button. Even better? Unlike when I was proper tiddly wee? You don’t even have to get up off your arse to change said channel these days.
Don’t be a bore. You no like? You no watch.
This is why I don’t watch many shows. Because I don’t enjoy them, and I’ve far, far better things to do with my time than first watch a show I don’t like, let alone jump on the internet to bore others by telling them I don’t like it.
Personally I don't mind political discussion in my media. I mean, let's just think about Star Trek.
There were episodes about:
Data allowing his child to choose their own sex AND gender Global Warming in the context of Warp Drive damaging subspace The rights of the individual vs. the state Witchhunts Corporate issues and pollution
The difference today, and what I think has a big impact on these discussions is that the way in which the issue is framed and presented is wildly different. Let's take the Global Warming episode of TNG as the example. The point of the episode was we're destroying the planet with fossil fuels. But, the episode covered this in clever allegory. The basic principle is that heavy use of Warp technology, can over thousands of years damage subspace. This effect is cumulative. The loss of Warp Drive would be massive, just like losing our cars today would cause massive disruption to our lives and our economies. The TNG episode frames the issue, shows BOTH sides of the debate and then creates a story around it. If this episode were made today, it likely wouldn't be so well thought out and subtle. More than likely the issue would be poorly explained, shrouded with either sarcasm or crude humor and the Obvious solution would be pounded into the audience with a hammer (Think the "Orange Man Bad" arguments from our real world modern political issues).
I do not disagree with anything you said. But I respect the rules.
I do respect them, and I won't further discuss beyond what was said. I just wanted a firm explanation. Hopefully the post can skirt by and not start a gak storm.
So S3 looks like the last squeeze of the TNG memberberries so can we move onto DS9 memberberries, I got an idea for a Big Dax, Little Dax show (wormhole aliens Sisko tinkering)
I do not disagree with anything you said. But I respect the rules.
I do respect them, and I won't further discuss beyond what was said. I just wanted a firm explanation. Hopefully the post can skirt by and not start a gak storm.
I'll give it a shot.
Part of the issue is that there are always the usual suspects. Cynical diversity or performative allyship have increasingly become a topic in media criticism to the point that there is media based on the criticism (Master is a recent film where it's a strong theme), but you rarely ever see those discussions breach the broader internet. This is for what I'd point to as two primary reasons. 1) The usual suspects who jump on any depiction of a non-cis white character without fail, and heaven forbid anyone comment on liking more diversity in casts and crews. The bigots jump right on board and get nasty about it. They're real, and constantly pretending that they're not leads directly into 2) People are so paranoid about the usual suspects they themselves jump in without fail and will pick at anything and everything regardless of its merits. This becomes a feedback loop, where 2 produces 1 and 1 produces more 2. Frankly, 1 and 2 are kind of a 'chicken or the egg' question.
Throw in the discussion itself being extremely complicated and wrapped up with a whole lot of other ideas and criticisms, and the whole thing becomes a circus faster than you can say welcome to the Thunderdome.
Talking past one another is also a real thing as MadDoc points out and it doesn't help but distinguishing when you're talking past someone and when someone is just nasty or stupid is hard on the internet. No one is holding a gun to your head and demanding you watch something you don't want to watch. I'd suggest though that sometimes, the people doing the complaining aren't watching in the first place and never intended to because it's not really about the media. It's about looking for a fight. Some people are addicted to it.
I laugh at people who complaina bout "forced diversity" in star trek. I mean seriously, do these people think it was a COINCIDANCE that the bridge crew of the enterprise 1701 "no bloody a b c or d" consisted of a white man, a black woman, a russian man an asian man, and a alien?
as for holding off till season 3 for the "big TNG cast reuinon" it makes sense, it gives us two seasons to meet the new characters and to see them grow develop etc. without being over shadowed by the entire cast of TNG
The difference today, and what I think has a big impact on these discussions is that the way in which the issue is framed and presented is wildly different. Let's take the Global Warming episode of TNG as the example. The point of the episode was we're destroying the planet with fossil fuels. But, the episode covered this in clever allegory. The basic principle is that heavy use of Warp technology, can over thousands of years damage subspace. This effect is cumulative. The loss of Warp Drive would be massive, just like losing our cars today would cause massive disruption to our lives and our economies. The TNG episode frames the issue, shows BOTH sides of the debate and then creates a story around it. If this episode were made today, it likely wouldn't be so well thought out and subtle. More than likely the issue would be poorly explained, shrouded with either sarcasm or crude humor and the Obvious solution would be pounded into the audience with a hammer (Think the "Orange Man Bad" arguments from our real world modern political issues).
I think you're giving the current shows too much credit. Its not even that they can't wrap a story around it and discuss complex issues the way older series did. Its almost like the writers/producers left the office one day and discovered social issues in LA for the first time ever. Its been... 2 and a half decades since I lived there, and you'd have to be really blind to have your only commentary on life in LA (and the surrounding climate and landscape) is just to have your characters pronounce 'this is horrible, how can THeY Do ThIS?' and move on. Offering no insight, no solutions, hope or alternatives. Just the horror of first contact with an alien civilization the writers have never seen before, because they're just that sheltered and lack the ability to critically comment on it, even in the most distant way.
I know that early TNG had Q be "afraid" of Guinan but I don't recall the El-Aurian's fighting the Q. It more seemed that it was Guinan herself that had dealings with Q in the past rather than her race.
Gert wrote: I know that early TNG had Q be "afraid" of Guinan but I don't recall the El-Aurian's fighting the Q. It more seemed that it was Guinan herself that had dealings with Q in the past rather than her race.
The implication is that the El-Aurians are not bound by linear time or even universes (alternate Guinan in the Enterprise-C episode had main Guinan's knowledge to a point). As powerful as the Q are, they do seem to be mostly linear. It's possible that the El-Aurians could pose a threat to them there. The Borg thing has always been weird but it could also be that the El-Aurians ended up not featuring much in future Star Trek while the Borg were increasingly a 'defined' quantity by Voyager. They were a lot more mysterious in the TNG days. Maybe they adapted some kind of tactic that worked against the El-Aurians?
First episode there was certainly some element that Q couldn't just "flash" Guinan away and seemed unaware of her being on the ship until he met her in Ten Forward.
Also in Voyager remember how there were a few episodes where Federation crew armed with Q weapons could fight Q in their own realm.
Perhaps we are getting a look at the limitations of the Q and how, for all their natural bombastic nature, they are perhaps not "quite" as powerful as they'd like other races to think they are.
LordofHats wrote: The implication is that the El-Aurians are not bound by linear time or even universes (alternate Guinan in the Enterprise-C episode had main Guinan's knowledge to a point). As powerful as the Q are, they do seem to be mostly linear. It's possible that the El-Aurians could pose a threat to them there. The Borg thing has always been weird but it could also be that the El-Aurians ended up not featuring much in future Star Trek while the Borg were increasingly a 'defined' quantity by Voyager. They were a lot more mysterious in the TNG days. Maybe they adapted some kind of tactic that worked against the El-Aurians?
Being able to perceive alternate timelines doesn't mean they could defeat the Borg though and from "Yesterdays Enterprise" it seemed that Guinan didn't really have the knowledge as it were but they were more akin to half-remembered memories or feelings than clairvoyance. Plus as soon as the Borg assimilate one El-Aurian the gig is up and the Borg have the ability to perceive alternate timelines as well, something that got brought up in Picard IIRC as something the Queen can do.
As for the Q, they've had limits in the past so it's not a massive shock that it could happen now. It's just the fact that "our" Q is experiencing performance issues when he's always thought of himself as super brilliant and such. Ego and all that.
It certainly explains the animosity and why the El-Aurian's felt like the Q should have warned them about the Borg if there was a pre-existing relationship between their two species.
One curious thing is why goes she have that particular bottle. Start of the series she was presented as a more minor individual within her race, now she's holding the very bottle that sealed a peace/truce deal with the Q. That's pretty major considering their world still exists, and will exist for many hundreds of years from now. So why is it on a little primitive Earth.
Unless she's being a little short with the truth and there are many such bottles that hold the drink and its given out to many.
Interesting idea about the whole idea of summoning a Q.
Picards past also takes a few deeper turns, we've got a chunk of story but not all!
Overall interesting episode. Also the Police at the very end are going to be curious to see what their angle is. I wonder if its a tiny tiny bit of foreshadowing of Section 32.
Also it seems that the conflict between the El-Aurians and the Q was a cold war.
So wait, a species who has interesting abilities to sense disturbances in the force...had a cold war with the Q, in which the Q were actively threatened. But they couldn't stop the Borg from nearly eradicating them.
Good God this show has been a gak show. Just let it die.
We have a species that can somehow force the Q Continuum to some kind of truce but cannot stop the Borg from assimilating most of them?
As said by others, that's not exactly a new thing about the El-Aurians and the Q, but stranger still...
Spoiler:
In Voyager, we have a moment where it seems the Q Continuum have a rule about not provoking the Borg.
Eh. That's a bit of a reach. Little Q was pretty clearly threatened by Big Q to not provoke the Borg, most likely because of their interactions with non-Q species. I doubt the Q have any fear at all of the Borg.
I imagine the Q have a healthy fear of the Borg, given they seem to have a healthy fear of the El Aurians and the Borg have assimilated some number of El Aueians.
We've never known the source of the Q's power have we - nor how much meddling they can achieve right?
We know that they affect our reality generally very little, the Q we encounter most being a gross exception of that rule in that he tends to play a lot in the Galaxy. From judging Picard through to playing at wandering archaeologist to tormenting Janeway
But mostly they keep to their own realm. It's also interesting that for all their power they appear to operate with a lot of restraint.
There clearly must be some feedback loop element by which something like the Borg can threaten the Q in such a way that they can't just wipe them out with a thought or a click of the fingers.
So wait, a species who has interesting abilities to sense disturbances in the force...had a cold war with the Q, in which the Q were actively threatened. But they couldn't stop the Borg from nearly eradicating them.
Good God this show has been a gak show. Just let it die.
All of what you have described is no different from what we knew in TNG. The only new addition was the clarification that the conflict between the El-Aurians and the Q was a cold war. So let's axe TNG yeah?
As has already been explained, the El-Aurians clearly don't have clairvoyance otherwise Guinan would know who Picard is by simply looking into the future. Their abilities with regards to time have been shown as an ability to feel changes in the timeline, as seen in "Yesterday's Enterprise", but even then it's still just feelings or vague memories. As for beating the Borg, the whole thing about the El-Aurians is that they were one of the first races to prove that resistance wasn't futile. But you are willfully ignoring the main traits of the Borg, rapid adaptability and assimilation. If one El-Aurian soldier gets unlucky and is assimilated, that's all the El-Aurian tactics and weapons knowledge in the hands of the enemy.
AduroT wrote: Just because paper can beat rock, and scissors can then beat that paper, doesn’t means it’s also able to beat rock.
Not sure what you mean?
Do you not think that if the Borg had the biological, technological, cultural, and strategic data on an entire species compared to none previously, then the Borg wouldn't be able to beat the El-Aurians?
AduroT wrote: Just because paper can beat rock, and scissors can then beat that paper, doesn’t means it’s also able to beat rock.
Not sure what you mean?
Do you not think that if the Borg had the biological, technological, cultural, and strategic data on an entire species compared to none previously, then the Borg wouldn't be able to beat the El-Aurians?
He was complaining that because the El Aurians we’re able to threaten the Q but got beat by the Borg that it was stupid.
So wait, a species who has interesting abilities to sense disturbances in the force...had a cold war with the Q, in which the Q were actively threatened. But they couldn't stop the Borg from nearly eradicating them.
Good God this show has been a gak show. Just let it die.
All of what you have described is no different from what we knew in TNG. The only new addition was the clarification that the conflict between the El-Aurians and the Q was a cold war. So let's axe TNG yeah?
As has already been explained, the El-Aurians clearly don't have clairvoyance otherwise Guinan would know who Picard is by simply looking into the future. Their abilities with regards to time have been shown as an ability to feel changes in the timeline, as seen in "Yesterday's Enterprise", but even then it's still just feelings or vague memories. As for beating the Borg, the whole thing about the El-Aurians is that they were one of the first races to prove that resistance wasn't futile. But you are willfully ignoring the main traits of the Borg, rapid adaptability and assimilation. If one El-Aurian soldier gets unlucky and is assimilated, that's all the El-Aurian tactics and weapons knowledge in the hands of the enemy.
It's not interesting to me. I've made the decisions that I'm not going to finish this season out. Star Trek ended with Enterprise for me, everything after that can be enjoyed by someone else.
Doubling down on the El-Aurians are somehow a threat ot the Q was expected but very dispointing. Guinan just does not seem to have anything that could possibly even midly iritate something that lcik their fingers and alter reality.
The Q are not the only ultra powerful extra-dimensional beings - there are quite a few - who never seem to interact....but perhaps they do and their interactions colour what happens with the mortals - maybe the El-Aurians have some powerful patrons or individuals who have ascended. Alot of the Q seem to be like the Ascended in Stargate who stay out of everything as much as possible.
The tedious trip into Picards brain was tedious - again Laris underused.
Most of the cast seem to be doing nothing now - with Rios just repeating Kirks lines and falling for the girl. Dull
The Borg Queen story looked interesting - pity it was so little in the episode
No Q, no Dr Soong - :(
He was complaining that because the El Aurians we’re able to threaten the Q but got beat by the Borg that it was stupid.
Seems stupid to me too - unless they are pacificst or something but then the "Cold War" makes no sense or they are suddenly given lots of magic powers that we have never seen before...but then how did the Borg....circular issues
Togusa wrote: It's not interesting to me. I've made the decisions that I'm not going to finish this season out. Star Trek ended with Enterprise for me, everything after that can be enjoyed by someone else.
Then don't comment on it? If you don't know what you're talking about or have no interest why get involved? Let other people enjoy their stuff.
I wonder if the Q's power is perhaps less a snap of the fingers and more that they can just move in time and space really freely. So a lot of their powers appear to be cosmically super powerful, whilst in reality their "power" to affect the world around them is more limited. However they can go back and make a lot of small changes to time so that they result in a big net change in the "present" time that they are interacting with.
Changes that regular species have to just roll with because they can't "see" or feel the changes that took place.
Then when a Q wants an individual, or group, to feel/see those changes, they can isolate them from the timeline changes.
All creating an illusion that the Q can magically summon things or change things from thin air, when in reality they've just gone back and used more minor (but still extreme) powers to change little things.
However the El Aurians CAN feel those changes. Which lets them react very differently compared to other species. Perhaps resist the idea of the Q being Gods and all powerful beings; perhaps even to undo or otherwise see and change the adjustments the Q made.
I'm reminded of the time Sisko punched Q. Q magically makes a whole group in the bar go from normal to cheering around a fighting ring style situation with him and Sisko in the middle. At the time we are given the idea that Q just magically made everyone go along with the idea in a split second. However perhaps Q went back in time instead and made a LOT of little changes here and there. Adjusting things so that the situation evolved and happened. Sisko was isolated from the timeline change so to him its magical finger-clicking power. Everyone else, however, was part of the chain of events that led to that event.
The Q are butterflies - tiny changes produce extreme reults
El are Weathermen - able to predict and see the changes
Borg are the hurricane neither one of the above two can directly control *
*Thinking on it more. Perhaps the Q have already done the whole "messing in a big way" with time and it produced insane results that almost threatened reality and them. So they brought out a lot of regulation and pulled away from interacting much. However the result is they are constrained to a time-line that is the current setting. A timeline that is fairly limited in the scope they are allowed, by their own rules and experiences, to change. So they are more stuck with the Borg as removing them might take considerable changes outside of the scope that they allow themselves/can be allowed. Perhaps even most of the attempts at removing the Borg result in something even worse arising.
Togusa wrote: It's not interesting to me. I've made the decisions that I'm not going to finish this season out. Star Trek ended with Enterprise for me, everything after that can be enjoyed by someone else.
Then don't comment on it? If you don't know what you're talking about or have no interest why get involved? Let other people enjoy their stuff.
Look man, it’s very important he follows all these discussions closely so he can make sure to tell you how little he cares about it.
Then don't comment on it? If you don't know what you're talking about or have no interest why get involved? Let other people enjoy their stuff.
If he's supposedly wrong or simply has a different opinion, how does that stop your enjoyment? Are you projecting/superimposing negative posts from Dakka onto your TV while you're streaming the episodes for the first time? Or is the simple existence of a potentially contrary opinion that unnerving? This is a Star Trek thread and he's a fan of trek talking about trek.
Usually when people say "I'm not going to bother with this" they don't keep coming back to continue being negative about it, especially when they end up being factually incorrect with one of their complaints or made it clear they were never going to enjoy this series anyway as they don't enjoy the specific plot device that was chosen. At this point they very specifically are just coming back to be negative.
Then don't comment on it? If you don't know what you're talking about or have no interest why get involved? Let other people enjoy their stuff.
If he's supposedly wrong or simply has a different opinion, how does that stop your enjoyment? Are you projecting/superimposing negative posts from Dakka onto your TV while you're streaming the episodes for the first time? Or is the simple existence of a potentially contrary opinion that unnerving? This is a Star Trek thread and he's a fan of trek talking about trek.
Yet they trip all over themselves to bukkake their hate over AbramsTrek despite the fact that some people actually enjoyed it. "Let people enjoy things, maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan..." apparently only applies so far.
Overread wrote: I wonder if the Q's power is perhaps less a snap of the fingers and more that they can just move in time and space really freely. So a lot of their powers appear to be cosmically super powerful, whilst in reality their "power" to affect the world around them is more limited. However they can go back and make a lot of small changes to time so that they result in a big net change in the "present" time that they are interacting with.
Changes that regular species have to just roll with because they can't "see" or feel the changes that took place.
Then when a Q wants an individual, or group, to feel/see those changes, they can isolate them from the timeline changes.
All creating an illusion that the Q can magically summon things or change things from thin air, when in reality they've just gone back and used more minor (but still extreme) powers to change little things.
However the El Aurians CAN feel those changes. Which lets them react very differently compared to other species. Perhaps resist the idea of the Q being Gods and all powerful beings; perhaps even to undo or otherwise see and change the adjustments the Q made.
I'm reminded of the time Sisko punched Q. Q magically makes a whole group in the bar go from normal to cheering around a fighting ring style situation with him and Sisko in the middle. At the time we are given the idea that Q just magically made everyone go along with the idea in a split second. However perhaps Q went back in time instead and made a LOT of little changes here and there. Adjusting things so that the situation evolved and happened. Sisko was isolated from the timeline change so to him its magical finger-clicking power. Everyone else, however, was part of the chain of events that led to that event.
The Q are butterflies - tiny changes produce extreme reults
El are Weathermen - able to predict and see the changes
Borg are the hurricane neither one of the above two can directly control *
*Thinking on it more. Perhaps the Q have already done the whole "messing in a big way" with time and it produced insane results that almost threatened reality and them. So they brought out a lot of regulation and pulled away from interacting much. However the result is they are constrained to a time-line that is the current setting. A timeline that is fairly limited in the scope they are allowed, by their own rules and experiences, to change. So they are more stuck with the Borg as removing them might take considerable changes outside of the scope that they allow themselves/can be allowed. Perhaps even most of the attempts at removing the Borg result in something even worse arising.
Not buying that (unless they retcon alot of things) - the Q have been shown to change things instantly with no issues and on a whim. It also does not solve the problem of a apparently powerless race being able to have a "cold War" with them - it would be like a specific ant colony on earth having a "cold War" with the Federation. Even if the El can see its changed - that makes no difference if they can do nothing about it and if they can do something about it that can match that power then how could the Borg defeat them. The Borg are not that scary if the Confederation (with the same tech as the Federation but just being "evil") can destroy them and Species 8472 dealt with them ease.
It makes zero sense - but I think that it will be just be the narrative - I don't think the writters care that much about such things as long as it moves the plot along - thats been the case for Picard from the start.
Its not complete Gak like Discovery so I am just watching for the fun bits - first two epsiodes were good, but the last one was just tedious.
honestly, regarding Q we need to consider some facts.
Spoiler:
1st: Q is seemingly behaving a bit oddly, almost unhinged, and IMHO despirate. Picard notes this right away.
2nd: Q's powers seem less then reliable, being unable to directly impact Renee Picard,
3rd: Guinin's ritual to summon a Q...... didn't
I'm beginning to suspect this over all means something...
random theory from left field. Q is a descendant of Picard, and he's trying to protect his very existance
The obvious explanation for the end of the last episode seems likely to be:
Spoiler:
Somehow the changes to time have destroyed the Q Continuum, which is why Guinan didn't summon any. That doesn't entirely explain how Q is in the timeline though, so it could be something else. Maybe the Q are all busy trying to save their own skin and clean up the timeline?
That said, the El-Aurians being at war with the Q does seem pretty absurd on the face of it. Not sure how you actually wage war against a species that seems capable of altering reality on a whim, never mind actually fighting them to a stalemate.
The first time we see Guinan and Q interact in the first TNG episode she makes a hand gesture and Q makes a similar one. They certainly appear to have some kind of opposition toward each other. Q doesn't even risk messing directly with her at any point either - though she also shifted to Guest actress and was in and out and it was a line of the story that we never saw repeated until Picard.
Perhaps whilst the El Aurian's are not all powerful, whatever power they have is like an anti-Q power? Whilst they can reshape the universe or jump through time and space, some element of their being has a negative impact on Q?
Brian's theory that Q and Picard are related does play into the idea of the Q messing with time in little ways to lead to big changes. They have always appeared in very human forms all the time, even though they have no reason too beyond keeping the make-up budget low. Q has never really tried to appear as anything but humanoid. Perhaps they are humans, ascended so far far far in the future time and these little changes he's making are part of guiding humanity (with a slightly forced hand) toward choices that in the end result in a better Q. A kind of self perpetuating destiny thing? Though part of me hopes that isn't the case, its a little too "neat".
Q at war or threatened or even just interested in the galaxy in general is pretty daft. We never really had a reason for their judgement of humanity. We knew that they were judging humanity, but never the reasoning or theories why. Heck perhaps the Q aren't humanity ascended but any race that ascends and humanity is the next on the potential list.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: When it comes to “KeEp PoLiTiCS oUt Of MeDiA”, just remember behind such nonsense, especially SciFi and Trek in particular which have always been inherently political? And utterly regardless of how a given SciFi critiques or endorses a political leaning? Those first raising are either intensely stupid, or only there to try to sway folk.
And can probably more accurately be described as “I lack the language and critical skills to explain exactly what it is I disagree with, therefore they just shouldn’t do *that*, because only a political leaning I personally endorse should be allowed. Anything else is (delete as appropriate) communism/fascism, but again only because I lack the social skills, language skills and ability to explain nuance to express myself any other way”.
Without mentioning my own political leanings, because they’re irrelevant to this post? I’ll proper cringe at certain artistic visions for its own lack of nuance/subtlety, just as folk on the other end of the political spectrum might do to stuff I happen to enjoy.
Just don’t ever, ever forget or pretend certain shows didn’t push certain boundaries in their own specific heydays. And don’t demand something drop a political lean just because it doesn’t tickle your pickle.
Don’t be Mary Whitehouse. Your telly has not only an off switch, but also a change channel button. Even better? Unlike when I was proper tiddly wee? You don’t even have to get up off your arse to change said channel these days.
Don’t be a bore. You no like? You no watch.
This is why I don’t watch many shows. Because I don’t enjoy them, and I’ve far, far better things to do with my time than first watch a show I don’t like, let alone jump on the internet to bore others by telling them I don’t like it.
And who said that here, no one.
Star Trek has always had politics in it, that's a given. Doesn't mean it was always well written. Todays Trek handles it like a sledgehammer to the face whenever they get a chance. I'm just waiting for a character to look at the audience (Which isn't much of one) and go, "Isn't that wrong?" whenever the writers hackneyed political compass springs up and gets a chance to shine.
Star Trek has always been plenty blatant and in your face with politics. "Let That be Your Last Battlefield" is the one that comes to mind first from TOS.
We can argue about it being well written, but it's always been there, whether it be a sledgehammer to the face or a ball peen hammer to the fingers.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Star Trek has always been plenty blatant and in your face with politics. "Let That be Your Last Battlefield" is the one that comes to mind first from TOS.
We can argue about it being well written, but it's always been there, whether it be a sledgehammer to the face or a ball peen hammer to the fingers.
So what is the future of Star Trek in film, if any, or what should it be?
If you had asked me this question in 2020 I would have said that the future is uncertain, but possibly bright.
Now, in April of 2022, I'd say just let it die. Picard has been an absolute dumpster fire of bad ideas executed horribly. Discovery still hasn't done anything interesting in my opinion and to me is the worst of the franchise in terms of storytelling and characters. Strange New Worlds has an uncertain future, I hold out hope that it *could* be good, but given it's literally the same group of people responsible for the creation of the rest of the recent modern stuff, it will likely be childish, poorly written with one dimensional characters and crummy stories.
Maybe it's time to just let it rest. And, I'll add this: Let Star Wars rest too.
The first time we see Guinan and Q interact in the first TNG episode she makes a hand gesture and Q makes a similar one. They certainly appear to have some kind of opposition toward each other. Q doesn't even risk messing directly with her at any point either - though she also shifted to Guest actress and was in and out and it was a line of the story that we never saw repeated until Picard.
Perhaps whilst the El Aurian's are not all powerful, whatever power they have is like an anti-Q power? Whilst they can reshape the universe or jump through time and space, some element of their being has a negative impact on Q?
Brian's theory that Q and Picard are related does play into the idea of the Q messing with time in little ways to lead to big changes. They have always appeared in very human forms all the time, even though they have no reason too beyond keeping the make-up budget low. Q has never really tried to appear as anything but humanoid. Perhaps they are humans, ascended so far far far in the future time and these little changes he's making are part of guiding humanity (with a slightly forced hand) toward choices that in the end result in a better Q. A kind of self perpetuating destiny thing? Though part of me hopes that isn't the case, its a little too "neat".
Q at war or threatened or even just interested in the galaxy in general is pretty daft. We never really had a reason for their judgement of humanity. We knew that they were judging humanity, but never the reasoning or theories why. Heck perhaps the Q aren't humanity ascended but any race that ascends and humanity is the next on the potential list.
Interesting. I always interoperated those hand gestures in that episode of TNG as nothing more than hand gestures.
Would have been interesting if Guinan was a former traveling companion of our beloved Q, maybe he taught her a few things. The Suicidal Q did tell Tuvok that the Q were simply more advanced than the rest of the Universe and that it was akin to how the federation technology would be viewed by lesser races.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gert wrote: Usually when people say "I'm not going to bother with this" they don't keep coming back to continue being negative about it, especially when they end up being factually incorrect with one of their complaints or made it clear they were never going to enjoy this series anyway as they don't enjoy the specific plot device that was chosen. At this point they very specifically are just coming back to be negative.
Star Trek kept me from putting a bullet in my head when I was a kid. It means a *lot* to me. So yes, I'm going to discuss it when it's good or bad.
Seeing something you love destroyed by other people who are only trying to milk it as a vehicle to make more money and score social and political brownie points does tend to make one upset.
Star Trek kept me from putting a bullet in my head when I was a kid. It means a *lot* to me. So yes, I'm going to discuss it when it's good or bad.
Seeing something you love destroyed by other people who are only trying to milk it as a vehicle to make more money and score social and political brownie points does tend to make one upset.
Which complaint of mine is factually incorrect?
and honest to god question.. when you where a kid watching star trek, and presumably getting a sense of hope, optimism or whatever stopped you from putting a bullet in your head.. did you nitpick whatever trek series you watched? because TOS (especially TOS it was very..... unformed back then) TNG, DS9 VOY and enterprise ALL had their little inconsistancies.
indeed, I assume you're aware of how controversial and hated TNG, DS9, and Enterprise where all very controversial back in the day. "Picard or Kirk?" wasn't a fun little invite to nerd out back in the early 90s. it was the summoning call for a "geek death battle"
I'm not saying you're not allowed to have your opinion, I'm rather trying to give you some prespective, assuming you're a 30-40 something who grew up watching TNG etc it really might be benifical for you to consider that there where "TOS Grognards" saying the same thing about YOUR Trek shows, back when those shows where important to you
indeed, I assume you're aware of how controversial and hated TNG, DS9, and Enterprise where all very controversial back in the day. "Picard or Kirk?" wasn't a fun little invite to nerd out back in the early 90s. it was the summoning call for a "geek death battle"
I lived through all those and I think they're frequently over inflated in their reported extent to justify modern trek's reception IMO. Admittedly, the switchover to TNG was pre-internet while I was a kid but by the second season I was in a large Trek club of mostly TOS/ TMP fans while also going to conventions and even there it was just a strong preference but not an active dislike of the show let alone its fellow trekkie fans. Maybe this is because the TMP mkvies were still ongoing so classic (for the time) fans were still getting their itch scratched too. Folks who try to downplay the current rift always seem to use the same tired yellowed single article in one local newspaper (which is about as anecdotal as my own example) and a couple of write in letters as examples.
Like you said, it was a fun way to nerd out. Same thing with the supposed Star Trek vs Star Wars fan split and the use off trekkie vs trekker. I don't recall DS9 getting much criticism other than for being set on a station and not a ship and even that was short lived as they got the Defiant soon enough (3rd season?). The darker war setting and tone bothered some but the stories and characters more than made up for it at the time let alone its aging like fine wine into many folks favorite series in the decades since. VOY and especially ENT got online criticism that was progressively stronger but IMO that was in proportion to the decreased strength/quality of the shows as well as corporate bungling not seen since the cancellation of TOS the first time. And I say that as a big fan of late ENT and fair weather fan of VOY who skipped out on portions of both during the original runs.
Either way, none of the above remotely compare to the complete rebooting we got with jjtrek or the complete upending in characters/setting/tone/values nutrek gave us nor the switch to countering criticism of a show with attacks on fellow fans versus their content. There have always been a tiny handful of truly hateful actually toxic commenters but only recently (not even with jjtrek) has it become the default to pretend that the baseline response to criticism needs to tar everyone with that brush.
Star Trek kept me from putting a bullet in my head when I was a kid. It means a *lot* to me. So yes, I'm going to discuss it when it's good or bad.
Seeing something you love destroyed by other people who are only trying to milk it as a vehicle to make more money and score social and political brownie points does tend to make one upset.
Which complaint of mine is factually incorrect?
and honest to god question.. when you where a kid watching star trek, and presumably getting a sense of hope, optimism or whatever stopped you from putting a bullet in your head.. did you nitpick whatever trek series you watched? because TOS (especially TOS it was very..... unformed back then) TNG, DS9 VOY and enterprise ALL had their little inconsistancies.
indeed, I assume you're aware of how controversial and hated TNG, DS9, and Enterprise where all very controversial back in the day. "Picard or Kirk?" wasn't a fun little invite to nerd out back in the early 90s. it was the summoning call for a "geek death battle"
I'm not saying you're not allowed to have your opinion, I'm rather trying to give you some prespective, assuming you're a 30-40 something who grew up watching TNG etc it really might be benifical for you to consider that there where "TOS Grognards" saying the same thing about YOUR Trek shows, back when those shows where important to you
Not really. Back then I felt lucky enough just to have a television to watch it, and to be frank I had only three friends growing up and none of them liked Trek. It was something my Dad and I watched together. As an adult now, I am aware of a lot of the stuff that went on back then with the fanbase.
The thing is, I don't equate the two.
There were good and not so good episodes of the 90s and 60s Treks and I've never really cared for any of the films except Generations, which I think was the best.
But to say that its the same as what's going on now is a stretch. Kurtzman has been on record saying that he sees the show as a vehicle for his own political views. We could argue or discuss the merits of those views, but I think it's not really that useful and will only lead to the thread being locked. Suffice it to say, I do not believe that Kurtzman, Bad Robot or the writers are all that interested in taking what has been built up and making it better, but instead are trying to fulfill the wishes of Paramount Execs and turn a profit. These shows don't just have a few bad episodes, they're objectively bad all around with poorly written characters, scenarios that are pale shadows of their ancestors writing quality. Just stop for a moment and ask yourself why almost everything from Discovery to Strange New Worlds has been either a prequel or soft reboot? So far, Picard is the only show to make the attempt to continue on after the conclusion of Voyager.
I do hear what you are saying, but as Warboss said (and I think they are much better at communication than I am) it's just not the same.
I, too, was around back then, involved with the fandom and attending conventions. Things back then were not at all the same, and it is disingenuous to pretend they are. Even as someone who likely agrees with the politics, I hate what Trek has become. It’s dour and joyless, myopic and bleak, lacking wonder and character. I wouldn’t want to live in Picard’s Federation or even spend time there.
Episode 8 - its revelation was unexpected, and still does not solves El-Aurian puzzle, but at least explains Q's behavior. I guess we will get two episodes ending like with season 1.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I, too, was around back then, involved with the fandom and attending conventions. Things back then were not at all the same, and it is disingenuous to pretend they are. Even as someone who likely agrees with the politics, I hate what Trek has become. It’s dour and joyless, myopic and bleak, lacking wonder and character. I wouldn’t want to live in Picard’s Federation or even spend time there.
I think a lot of people get stuck on the politics of it, rather than realizing that it's not the politics that most people have an issue with. I wish I could exalt you more than once, but this: It’s dour and joyless, myopic and bleak, lacking wonder and character. I wouldn’t want to live in Picard’s Federation or even spend time there. is the issue.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Even as someone who likely agrees with the politics, I hate what Trek has become. It’s dour and joyless, myopic and bleak, lacking wonder and character. I wouldn’t want to live in Picard’s Federation or even spend time there.
This right here sums it up. My wife and I are actually re-watching TNG right now and even though it has a lot of campy nonsense, cartoonish antics, and more than a little cringe... it's just so bright and happy and upbeat! I grew up watching this and wanting to live in its universe. In the bleakest moments of my own life, I have looked at the Trek future as a reason to keep going.
The simple, beautiful belief that things might get better is not something to casually throw away.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I, too, was around back then, involved with the fandom and attending conventions. Things back then were not at all the same, and it is disingenuous to pretend they are. Even as someone who likely agrees with the politics, I hate what Trek has become. It’s dour and joyless, myopic and bleak, lacking wonder and character. I wouldn’t want to live in Picard’s Federation or even spend time there.
I think a lot of people get stuck on the politics of it, rather than realizing that it's not the politics that most people have an issue with. I wish I could exalt you more than once, but this: It’s dour and joyless, myopic and bleak, lacking wonder and character. I wouldn’t want to live in Picard’s Federation or even spend time there. is the issue.
They don't get stuck on it, it is an easy way to shut down dissenting opinions when someone can be attacked for imagined slights upon said politics and beliefs, even if no sane human could make the connection.
One way to put it might be that new Trek spends too much time on how the Federation is a dysfunctional mess, which runs counter to what I'd like to see out of Star Trek.
Fundamentally it is a problem of telling instead of showing. TOS/TNG had them acting like they believed in Federation ideals whereas STD has Burnham giving speeches about how great the Federation is.
Whilst we don't get an answer about the cold war with the Q, it strikes me that we are simply overlooking the most simplistic possible answer. We keep thinking of their relationship with the Q being a fairly "new" thing. Of being pretty recent.
Perhaps its far more ancient and perhaps in those much much more ancient times the El were vastly more powerful. More akin to the Q. So a cold war then would make perfect sense.
Then at some stage the balance shifted. The El perhaps gave up, sacrificed or exchanged some part of themselves. They became "lesser" than the Q and the cold war ended. However the relationship was maintained. Which would certainly explain why the El have such a feeling of betrayal that the Q didn't save them nor even warn them.
Heck perhaps the El and the Q were not even different species but the same species. That the cold war was very much one of political and idealistic elements.
Its the most simplistic way to explain how a race who apparently has nothing super-extraordinary over other aliens in the setting; could be considered near equals to the Q enough to have once been in a cold war with them.
I have to sort of agree that the whole police angle seemed like a storyline that they started and then ran out of steam with and ended very suddenly.
I'm assuming that the power in the scene is that it was that policeman that got hold of the security video and not another person in the department. So it does have some weight in terms of protecting and ensuring Picard's mission succeeds. It's also quite a Star Trek scene all told that he'd actually met vulcans and such. It works well, it just kinda feels like it had a huge amount of gravity and then sort of -- fizzled.
Meanwhile the whole astral projection aspect was very interesting. It's part of what made me wonder if the El used to have more formidable powers and gave up access/use/ability of them. Leaving them with echos of their former power; like sensing temporal changes and, what seems to be, limited astral projection powers.
It also gave us a better idea why Rafi went into full meltdown mode. That she saw her own manipulative nature resulting in the loss of of one she loved very dearly and had bonded with almost as close as one of her own children. If not perhaps closer considering we've seen some of her actual relationships on that front in a scene in the first series.
I have to sort of agree that the whole police angle seemed like a storyline that they started and then ran out of steam with and ended very suddenly.
I'm assuming that the power in the scene is that it was that policeman that got hold of the security video and not another person in the department. So it does have some weight in terms of protecting and ensuring Picard's mission succeeds. It's also quite a Star Trek scene all told that he'd actually met vulcans and such. It works well, it just kinda feels like it had a huge amount of gravity and then sort of -- fizzled.
Meanwhile the whole astral projection aspect was very interesting. It's part of what made me wonder if the El used to have more formidable powers and gave up access/use/ability of them. Leaving them with echos of their former power; like sensing temporal changes and, what seems to be, limited astral projection powers.
It also gave us a better idea why Rafi went into full meltdown mode. That she saw her own manipulative nature resulting in the loss of of one she loved very dearly and had bonded with almost as close as one of her own children. If not perhaps closer considering we've seen some of her actual relationships on that front in a scene in the first series.
Some things we do know.
El-Aurians have long lifespans. Q and Guinan had dealings with each other over two centuries prior to Stardate 42761.9 (Q introduces Humanity to the Borg). They're aware of Subtle changes to their timeline, recall in Yesterday's Enterprise that Guinan basically only knew that something had changed, not what it actually was. She had a bit more information about Tasha's fate as well. The wiki entry for the species claims that she had enough "power" to threaten a Q, but let's be honest. All she did was contort her fingers at him as he did to her. Unlike Q though, we've never seen Guinan do anything that could be seen as a power and that "threat" is likely nothing at all. There is also debate as to whether or not the El-Aurian powers were a natural function of their biology, or were the result of exposure to the Nexus. We know that the Q were the first society to reach their level of development in the universe according to Quinn, and we know that they were capable of killing each other with specially made weapons which had a disastrous effect on Subspace and Realspace.
But what is the point of all of this?
Still, I'm 8 episodes in and I still do not understand what in the world the story here is supposed to be about.
The main story is Picard finding a way to prevent the fascist dystopian future.
The side stories are Q being broken, Raffi/Seven having a dysfunctional relationship, the Borg Queen doing Borg things, Picard getting over trauma, and Rios getting a girlfriend from the past who will 100% go to the future because timeline shenanigans.
Gert wrote: The main story is Picard finding a way to prevent the fascist dystopian future.
Criminal underworlds, the Federation (regardless of the century), isolationist Earth, fascist Earth, Vulcans, the Borg, double super secret societies that everyone knows about, Klingons, the Mirror Universe Empire... pretty much everything that is already the cause of every major non-tribble calamity or will inevitably be is happens under the watch of a matriarchy. Seems like researching an end to the pervasive misandry of the bleak dystopian future might be a good starting point according to the limited plot potential of nutrek...
warboss wrote: Criminal underworlds, the Federation (regardless of the century), isolationist Earth, fascist Earth, Vulcans, the Borg, double super secret societies that everyone knows about, Klingons, the Mirror Universe Empire... pretty much everything that is already the cause of every major non-tribble calamity or will inevitably be is happens under the watch of a matriarchy. Seems like researching an end to the pervasive misandry of the bleak dystopian future might be a good starting point according to the limited plot potential of nutrek...
I do not have the words to describe the idiocy you have inflicted upon me...
Gert wrote: The main story is Picard finding a way to prevent the fascist dystopian future.
The side stories are Q being broken, Raffi/Seven having a dysfunctional relationship, the Borg Queen doing Borg things, Picard getting over trauma, and Rios getting a girlfriend from the past who will 100% go to the future because timeline shenanigans.
To be fair because of the huge war/ecosystem collapse that takes place in the normal timeline there's a lot of scope for messing with this period in the time line and it not having vast ramifications because a LOT of those people will wind up dead and not mattering to the main thrust of the timeline. Ergo whatever differences might arise are little ripples not big waves. We've seen this well established before a few times - heck when Kirk went back they gave certain tech to a company to get what they needed in trade with the line "how do we know he wasn't the guy who invented it in the first place"
warboss wrote: Criminal underworlds, the Federation (regardless of the century), isolationist Earth, fascist Earth, Vulcans, the Borg, double super secret societies that everyone knows about, Klingons, the Mirror Universe Empire... pretty much everything that is already the cause of every major non-tribble calamity or will inevitably be is happens under the watch of a matriarchy. Seems like researching an end to the pervasive misandry of the bleak dystopian future might be a good starting point according to the limited plot potential of nutrek...
I do not have the words to describe the idiocy you have inflicted upon me...
I have to sort of agree that the whole police angle seemed like a storyline that they started and then ran out of steam with and ended very suddenly.
I'm assuming that the power in the scene is that it was that policeman that got hold of the security video and not another person in the department. So it does have some weight in terms of protecting and ensuring Picard's mission succeeds. It's also quite a Star Trek scene all told that he'd actually met vulcans and such. It works well, it just kinda feels like it had a huge amount of gravity and then sort of -- fizzled.
Meanwhile the whole astral projection aspect was very interesting. It's part of what made me wonder if the El used to have more formidable powers and gave up access/use/ability of them. Leaving them with echos of their former power; like sensing temporal changes and, what seems to be, limited astral projection powers.
It also gave us a better idea why Rafi went into full meltdown mode. That she saw her own manipulative nature resulting in the loss of of one she loved very dearly and had bonded with almost as close as one of her own children. If not perhaps closer considering we've seen some of her actual relationships on that front in a scene in the first series.
Some things we do know.
El-Aurians have long lifespans.
Q and Guinan had dealings with each other over two centuries prior to Stardate 42761.9 (Q introduces Humanity to the Borg).
They're aware of Subtle changes to their timeline, recall in Yesterday's Enterprise that Guinan basically only knew that something had changed, not what it actually was. She had a bit more information about Tasha's fate as well.
The wiki entry for the species claims that she had enough "power" to threaten a Q, but let's be honest. All she did was contort her fingers at him as he did to her. Unlike Q though, we've never seen Guinan do anything that could be seen as a power and that "threat" is likely nothing at all. There is also debate as to whether or not the El-Aurian powers were a natural function of their biology, or were the result of exposure to the Nexus.
We know that the Q were the first society to reach their level of development in the universe according to Quinn, and we know that they were capable of killing each other with specially made weapons which had a disastrous effect on Subspace and Realspace.
But what is the point of all of this?
Still, I'm 8 episodes in and I still do not understand what in the world the story here is supposed to be about.
The Nexus wasn't an El-Aurian thing. In general it was just some kind of energy ripple that moved through space where, if you could come into contact with it in the right way you could enter into it. At which point time had no meaning within the ripple and you were typically placed in a state of high contentment. The Guinan Picard meets within was her from back when the starship first got impacted by the Nexus, same as how he met Kirk and brought Kirk with him into the present time (for Picard). Guinan essentially guided Picard to where Kirk had just entered and was first discovering the Nexus.
In the end it was a whole film about one mans madness to return to a state of perfect bliss and contentment.
The only El-Aurian side to things is that the Guinan within the Nexus appeared to have some ability to exchange information with herself outside of it in some form so that she knew who he was. Though its been some time since I've seen the film to remember that scene perfectly.
I think the Wiki for Star Trek basically talks about that first meeting of Guinan and Q in the very first episode of TNG. Where a relationship is established, but we never really return to those two interacting on that kind of front until right now in the Picard series. I think the only other time she acts with Q is when Q is stripped of his powers and sent to live a mortal life (although now I say that I've a feeling she might not have even then).
Otherwise we never revisit that story aspect and most of Guinans stories thereafter relate more to her mystical elements which are hinted at but mostly tend to be "I'm a better counsellor than the ships counsellor" and her long lifespan when they do a little time jumping.
The whole Cold War thing is only something we've discovered in Picard and we still have no answer as to the power relation between the two species nor much of their history. And we might never get that. Indeed sometimes its nice to have things we don't have all the answers too because it generates discussion, debate and thought.
I have to sort of agree that the whole police angle seemed like a storyline that they started and then ran out of steam with and ended very suddenly.
I'm assuming that the power in the scene is that it was that policeman that got hold of the security video and not another person in the department. So it does have some weight in terms of protecting and ensuring Picard's mission succeeds. It's also quite a Star Trek scene all told that he'd actually met vulcans and such. It works well, it just kinda feels like it had a huge amount of gravity and then sort of -- fizzled.
Meanwhile the whole astral projection aspect was very interesting. It's part of what made me wonder if the El used to have more formidable powers and gave up access/use/ability of them. Leaving them with echos of their former power; like sensing temporal changes and, what seems to be, limited astral projection powers.
It also gave us a better idea why Rafi went into full meltdown mode. That she saw her own manipulative nature resulting in the loss of of one she loved very dearly and had bonded with almost as close as one of her own children. If not perhaps closer considering we've seen some of her actual relationships on that front in a scene in the first series.
True on the Rafi front - she was less insuferable - but is she actually learning from her mistakes?
We need more of the delectable Laris instead.
Also whats with the
[/spoiler] Only humans can see their faults and grow and evolve [spoiler] nonsense
Only humans can see their faults and grow and evolve
nonsense
Did they say that? I tend to do warhams when I watch shows so I might have missed that bit.
Regardless, we've had plenty of races in the past learn to grow and change. The Bajorans and Cardassians did it in DS9, the Klingons a bit as well. The Vulcans did it in Enterprise and man do I wish that had gone on so we could see more of the Federation's founding years if only to see the NX-01 Enterprise look like this:
Spoiler:
I'm sure there are other examples elsewhere as well.
True on the Rafi front - she was less insuferable - but is she actually learning from her mistakes?
We need more of the delectable Laris instead.
Also whats with the
[/spoiler] Only humans can see their faults and grow and evolve
Spoiler:
nonsense
[spoiler]
Rafi is a mature character, she can learn from her mistakes but changing habits of a lifetime takes more than a few hours of shock therapy and time travel. She might well change before the end though; she's only really just coming to terms with the realisation.
I think the humans aspect is more that many of the other races seem to display more niched emotional and developmental states. Humans are a bit like the Eldar of the Star Trek Universe. They feel and engage on a deep level with such a wide variety of elements; more so than the other races who seem to have particular focuses as a culture. Whilst that focus can change over time, its still pretty singular or limited. Humans are presented as far more highly diverse. I think that's kind of what they are getting at if in a sot of rough manner. Humanity is the most diverse and thus has the most to overcome as a whole.
Man, what a coincidence that the implants needed to save Seven’s life just happened to look exactly like her old ones!
Spoiler:
True, but honestly of all the convenient elements, that make sense. Chances are the Implants used to save her were in part based on the memory of her before by Jurati and influenced how they were adapted to her appearance.
Overall solid episode but kind of felt a little like two squished into one. A few of the combat choices felt forced by situation to get to the desired end game. Eg no one runs across an open field with dozens of armed warriors with no cover and survives; or how Picard paused for a lot of the internal parts of the house for memory and revelations as if he knew what was happening on the ship at the same time.
That said I'm glad we've got closure on Picard's troubled past. A dark part of the story to be sure.
The new Queen of a new Borg fits very nicely into the established ideas. What is most curious to me now is how this event actually started. Because its the appearance of this new queen and her new hive in the Main time line that triggered all these events. At least so far as we know right now. So right now they are preserving a self-fulfilling destiny. However we have to wonder how it all started the first time. What triggered everything to go down this pathway the first time to create this new Borg collective.
It's an answer I hope we get from our next meeting with Q who also still has an unresolved story to be told in this. We are on the home run now, getting some but not all the answers.
I thought the series started strongly (time travel, hurrah!) but has gone downhill.
We now have immortal, god-like beings being shown up as impotent, Picard with some dark, repressed memories, and now finally what many regard as 'the' big baddie of TNG reduced to.. something that asks for consent for assimilation? This after we find out they do it, because they are afraid of being alone in the galaxy (!) Is there no-one without any hang-ups?!
It feels like they have literally neutered anyone that used to stand out as a threat, and actually trampled on the background with some pretty poor plotting (the problem being, in the past the episodes and storyline often revolved around the responses to those threats). Am now waiting to find out that Q does what he does because he was abandoned at a young age and has mummy issues.
Way, way too much 'me time' and ill-timed moments of reflection (you're having this conversation now, while borg-implanted killers are hunting you?!) between the characters too, I honestly found myself drifting off at parts of it, which is something I have never done with other series (even the more dull episodes of Voyager or Enterprise).
I would still say it is better than Discovery, but that's really not saying much. Very disappointed.
If its a race to the bottom, I think that last episode of Picard has taken the lead. I haven't seen an action oriented episode fall apart like this since Animorphs.
Its easily on par with the worst excesses of Discovery, but that show at least gets better over time.
I'm honestly not expecting to like "Strange New Worlds". I really want to. I really miss having new star-trek that I actually want to watch... but at this point I just don't expect it's going to be any different/better than Picard or Discovery.
Some mild spoilers in their episode descriptions in the second half of the video but the first half is spoiler free. Basically like old TV guide couple line episode preview entries.
So, CBS/Paramount ended the 20 year novel-verse continuity by killing all the characters in mostly-horrible ways, blowing up their universe, then erasing the timeline from ever having existed at all. The characters did this on purpose, sacrificing themselves so at least the Picard TV Show timeline could exist.
I’m having some strong feelings about this decision, and not ones that make me want to watch Picard.
Ah. I knew they ended things and you might have referenced it before but I didn't know the destruction of the novels multidecade beta canon was so complete.
Why would they do that? ST novels have never enjoyed even the 'well um kinda sorta but not' canon status that Star Wars books had prior to the Legends rebranding.
They could have just as easily have not addressed it at all.
Episode 10 - much better than the one from the season 1. Still do not know why
Spoiler:
Q had to die
Also there seem to be retcon as to the date of
Spoiler:
Khan's creation
But the biggest surprise was the appearance of
Spoiler:
Wesley Crusher
Overall, I am happy that I decided to watch the entire season. Yes, it had it flaws, but it still was fun, and felt as ST show, unlike Abrams or DIS(aster). Now, the waiting for the season 3, and the meeting of my favourite crew, begins
Man, the whole experiment gal, culminating with that special appearance, really feels like a long back door pilot to a spin-off they want to make.
Why does it always have to be about the Galaxy with you? Can’t it just be about one life? Immediately followed by a cataclysmic event that will kill billions. Which was just a really weird event in itself.
Ah. I knew they ended things and you might have referenced it before but I didn't know the destruction of the novels multidecade beta canon was so complete.
Enjoyed New Worlds. Pretty simple single world story so far. Bit on the nose but that’s how things are these days. Spock’s deadpan delivery of lines is amazing, truly a treat. I also loved Kirk’s appearance.
I've been rolling my eyes at every headline talking about the return of Kirk and every time they mention him by name in this first episode.
Spoiler:
That it turned out to be George "Sam" Kirk is super amusing to me.
Also, did they name the shuttle that brought Pike up from earth after Paul Stamets?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, hey. I was expecting to hate La'An Noonien-Singh, but I thought she made a decent, Yar-esque addition to the core dynamic. Hopefully she'll still get to do stuff as the series progresses.
My wife and I watched the first episode of “Star-Trek: Strange New Worlds” last night.
We are incredibly conflicted. The thing is, neither of us expected to be anything but angry at it. We expected it to be, well, pretty much like all the other Kurtzman shows (what is sometimes called “nu-trek”) and pretty much ignore everything actually star-trek and just focus on creating a lot of melodrama and ridiculous action sequences.
But it wasn't.
We actually liked it. We actually liked it a lot! For the first time in YEARS we saw a new Star-Trek show that actually felt something like Star-Trek. There were likable characters, non-violent resolutions, a brightly lit ship, a bit of humor, philosophy, and a focus on exploration. We honestly couldn't believe it. My wife, in particular, hadn't even wanted to watch it because she was so convinced it would only make us both mad.
So now we are conflicted. We desperately want it to keep being good, we are interested to see where it goes, and we want to be able to trust that the show will keep looking and feeling like the sort of Trek that we love... but we just don't trust Kurtzman. At all.
Basically, we were burned so bad before (and multiple times too!) that trusting this man and this new take on the franchise is going to take a little more than a good opening episode.
But we are hopeful. By the Emperor, we are hopeful...
Ok so I think the only part I dislike is the way the New Borg negotiated control over the fleet; especially the part where Picard issues the order for the fleet to stand down and not resist control by the Borg in that moment. Considering that that's just what the Borg say when taking over and, at that stage only he and the others from the time jump are even loosely aware of what's going on (indeed the others appear to not be fully aware at the start and then gradually more aware as moments pass).
That's really the only oddity. The "these are good Borg" was just a touch too fast.
Otherwise a very solid episode. I'm glad we saw the Khan elements arise; a hint that the original timeline was going to do just what it should.
Wesley appearing was interesting, but also gave some closure to the Watchers aspect. A bit pushed in there, but an interesting element I think.
We neve got an answer about the El and the Q and, I'm ok with that. It's a puzzle that maybe one day we learn the answer too or never do - ST I think has to have those to keep the wonder going.
The new Trans Warp link is interesting. My gut feeling is "Aliens from another Galaxy" considering that they've done so much with the Milky Way on a grand scale. Considering that 2 quadrants are dominated by Starfleet; 1 by the Founders and 1 by the Borg the Galaxy is quite full of major threats and power players; so perhaps stepping outside will be an interesting way to revisit a lot of the magic and wonder of exploration for the series. Certainly better than jumping forward or back in time which seems to not really work well with the writers.
Dysartes wrote: Yeah, I suspect Noonien-Singh to be a slow-burning plot point of some form - as well as a character.
That would require the show to have plot in the first place. Not the random sequence of events that just... happen as the characters bumble around.
New Trek is what would happen if you brought a bad star trek fan-fiction to the screen where the author has inserted themselves as Picard and acts completely contrary to the established character.
I was never the biggest Star Trek fan, I'm not a fan of the overly optimistic sci-fi. I do prefer gritty sci-fi, but that is exactly what makes star trek star trek. It doesn't work as a gritty sci-fi. If they wanted to make a gritty sci-fi, they should have made some new IP OR just looked for any number of existing minor IPs that would have fit what they wanted to do.
I kinda liked Star Trek as a corny lighthearted sci-fi that had episodic self-contained stories. The setting only works well when you do that. If you try to make it some gritty commentary it just falls flat, especially when the writers just cannot write stuff in even remotely passable ways.
DS9 did well with a lot of its grittier stuff but that only worked because it was funny as well and still followed the Star Trek mandate of telling you to not be a horrible person. The Xindi arc for Enterprise also did it really well.
There are bits of humour in Picard and there's the whole Patrick Stewart doing his speeches thing but it feels like such a letdown for so much of it. NGL I did like what they did with Q.
Spoiler:
Saw the Rios stuff coming a thousand miles away but I did like bits of Anges/Queen.
this was a good episode, sure it had its problems but I am willing to overlook a little in the hopes of getting Star Trek back and none of the NuTrek crap we have been subjected to with STD and "Picard"
That was actually a much better final episode than I had feared and hundred times better than the gak show of season one final episode.
It was still a narrative mess but the scenes between Q and Picard were good.
Spoiler:
Q ending was well done - although were there Q like flashes in the final scene?
Is that end of the Continum as none turned up to the summoning - and when exactly does Q die as he was alive in the future.....??
The Rios stuff was telegraphed from the moment he met the Dr but was done quite nicely so happy with that.
Seven was good - when they actually gave her something to do which was rare
The New Borg Q has possibilities
which only leaves us with the one character I really can't stand as:
Raffi reverted to unpleasent type as a neurotic clingy mess - def not starfleet material never mind a Captain! Get rid of her and give Seven a more worthy girlfriend/boyfriend - whatever
Some wierd mixed up messages:
Choose your own destiny - but we monitor and control the outcomes?!
Sorry but Wesley Crusher ruling and choosing the "right" timelines sounds a horrible idea - who decided that he was god?
Did he get rid of the Q?
It all really felt quite weak next to something like the Expanse - although Naomi = Raffi.....
Wesley teleported out so I suspect that whilst he is no longer fully human, he's not like a Q with inherent powers. He's reliant on technology. It's more that he's part of a "secret time police" group it seems.
I suspect that its the natural concept for any setting where time travel is possible because eventually more and more races would discover it. As a result the potential to mess with time becomes greater and greater and that's before you get to species like the Q who can do it themselves without any technological advance.
It's an interesting way to bring him back and it did answer the whole "destiny of a family" being protected.
Q is interesting in the concept of "When" he died. His species lifespan suggests that it could be an infinite span of time that he's been around to then come back to this time period to die.
Then again his close relationship with Picard in this moment, his legacy in this moment, suggests that perhaps its much closer. Because otherwise he could have outlived humanity itself not just Picard. Over such an infinite timespan it seems almost beyond belief that he'd choose this one man to come back to of all the untold numbers of others he's likely interacted with.
Rather enjoyed this second episode of Strange New Worlds again as well. Random things I liked…
Spoiler:
The Captain wasn’t the one who had to solve everything himself. He asked his crew their thoughts on their particular areas of expertise, and then followed their advise and plans.
Beaming down to a strange alien building? Let’s bring the language specialist, science officer, xeno biologist, and a security officer. That’s just about the perfect team. Should have brought a tech engineer as well though since they were to look at shield generators.
Against a clearly superior opponent and they didn’t find that one Achilles Heel to let the underdog blow them up.
Minor quibble…
Spoiler:
Spock laughed on the second episode? Trek shows often have that one character who has to learn emotion and Spock seems to be this show’s version. I think having him already laugh like that maybe is a bit too soon.
Not bad actually. Certainly, it's closer to what I miss in newer entries. This episode did make me think of the hilariously bad, bordering on stupid, Enterprise episode The Communicator. Handled the basic theme way better. I liked that the show was allowed to have actual light hearted fun in a way that Picard and Discovery just never have.
Personally, I feel the need to call out the elevator scene where the lady relates to the alien in a novel and clever way. It was a small thing but I really liked it.
It also more authentically tackles the themes of Star Trek I think. It feels way less like someone was referring to a checklist the entire script.
Less liked, at the rate they're adding hitherto unknown relatives to this franchise, they might as well make Star Trek Cousins as its own franchise entry. Sulu's sisters. Chekov's brother-in-law. Scotty's grandma. Georgi's great-grand papi. Just a whole crew of people inexplicably related to previously established characters for no reason just so we can name-drop them.
It's especially bizare because La'an's relation to him seems like it would be extremely stretched, begging the question why it's there at all and why she can't stand as her own character.
Star Trek: Renegades man. I swear to god the writers loved it way more than it deserved and they keep dragging it's stupid plot points into the franchise proper :/
It's ok. Which, given the dismal to insulting premieres of STD and PIC, is still a massive improvement. Obviously subjective so add salt to taste. I hope it doesn't worsen to baseline nutrek dystopian standards/tropes as the season progresses.
Piracy is great! Not just because it’s cheaper, but it’s also usually Easier than watching shows all legit like! Just finished* binging a series on D+. Why the *? Because D+ only has the first half of the final season and now I have to hit the high seas to Actually finish the rest.
AduroT wrote: Piracy is great! Not just because it’s cheaper, but it’s also usually Easier than watching shows all legit like! Just finished* binging a series on D+. Why the *? Because D+ only has the first half of the final season and now I have to hit the high seas to Actually finish the rest.
AduroT wrote: Piracy is great! Not just because it’s cheaper, but it’s also usually Easier than watching shows all legit like! Just finished* binging a series on D+. Why the *? Because D+ only has the first half of the final season and now I have to hit the high seas to Actually finish the rest.
Gabe Newell: Piracy is a service problem.
The biggest example I can think of is Survivor on CBS. Like the day it came out they had those episodes up on their website to view for free with ads. Except on mobile. You could not watch their shows on a mobile device, and given I watch most of my tv on my phone at work, I had to pirate a show that the makers were providing for free.
Has anyone else noticed that seemingly every character now has a traumatic back story?
Like, in the latest episode, Uhura suddenly has to bust out this super sad/tragic history and my first thought was: "Oh, so like the captain? And the security chief? And Spock?... is EVERYONE traumatized on this ship??"
I'm digging the new series actually, but it's getting kind of silly that not a single character is like: "I dunno, I always wanted to explore space and so I went to the academy and here I am! My parents are so proud of me! Have you met my darling wife?"
I'm thinking that maybe the show-writers are still recovering from the depressing slog fest of the other nu-trek and haven't adjusted completely to the new tone yet.
That being said: if next week's episode focuses on how Ortega was actually tortured for six years before she was left for dead by the Ferengi (who are now sentient mushroom people that breathe fire and look down on "mere commerce" as a merely human affectation)... I'm going to laugh rather inappropriately about the whole thing :-)
I mean tragic backstories aren't a new Star Trek thing though.
Spoiler:
Spock is a Vulcan/Human hybrid who was shunned by his father and abused by other Vulcans.
Picard was an academy bad boy who got stabbed in the heart by Naussicans. His best friend Jack Crusher died in an accident while serving under Picard. Picard also has feelings for Beverly Crusher but can't act on them as he feels it would betray his friend. Oh yeah, and he got assimilated by the Borg.
Beverly and Wesley both have trauma from the death of Jack.
Sisko had his wife die during Wolf 359.
Worf was an outcast from his people 3 or 4 times. His wife, Jadzia, was also murdered.
Bashir was genetically enhanced which ended his relationship with his family.
Garak was forced into the Obsidian Order by his father who actively tried to kill him multiple times and then was forced to live in exile on DS9.
Nog's mother took his father's money and abandoned their family. Then he got his leg blown off.
B'elanna Torres was half Klingon which sucked for her.
Archer watched his father die without ever realising his dreams of space travel and blamed the Vulcans.
T'pol had an arranged marriage.
It's definitely not new but it's also become more and more a thing. 20-30 years ago a cast would have 1-2 characters with a dramatic backstory vs a broader ensemble of people who were more mundane/normal before stuff started happening.
Those characters were often the most interesting though because they weren't mundane,but now every character gets a traumatic backstory and I feel like it diminishes the stories and produces absurd pile ups of overly dramatic blarg in characters.
leerm02 wrote: Has anyone else noticed that seemingly every character now has a traumatic back story?
Like, in the latest episode, Uhura suddenly has to bust out this super sad/tragic history and my first thought was: "Oh, so like the captain? And the security chief? And Spock?... is EVERYONE traumatized on this ship??"
I'm digging the new series actually, but it's getting kind of silly that not a single character is like: "I dunno, I always wanted to explore space and so I went to the academy and here I am! My parents are so proud of me! Have you met my darling wife?"
Reminds me of the major networks covering the Olympics. Every athlete covered had a tragic backstory. No one was 'I loved playing <sport> and turned out to be good at it.' Its all car accidents, overdoses, & dead parents.
Ha yeah its definitely strange (the backstories) - I don't recall the older Trek series doing that too much? Kirk maybe though I don't think his parents were killed (I recall something about a colony massacre?)
For SNW they should just totally lean into it - make every character have just horrific pasts. Yep Dad was cleanin space barnacles off the USS Cannonfodder and he got sucked into a warp intake while we watched.... want to see pics?
LordofHats wrote: It's definitely not new but it's also become more and more a thing. 20-30 years ago a cast would have 1-2 characters with a dramatic backstory vs a broader ensemble of people who were more mundane/normal before stuff started happening.
Another wrench thrown into the mix after 25 years is that writers seem to be conflating what they read on the wiki page on each character with what they need to do from the get go. Yes, there were lots of tragic backstories for most of the main crew on TNG but they were invented over the course of seven seasons and not put out with their intro character episode. In season one, I think we knew about Worf's backstory, possibly Tasha's rape gang drug infested upbringing, and Papa Crusher dying. Riker's familial conflict was disagreement with his dad solved by a discount American Gladiators match. Troi never solved her mother's good natured meddling but it wasn't tragic (though I don't recall how her father died honestly). Picard's backstory was introduced iirc after Best of Both Worlds' finale so season 3. Geordi being disabled doesn't qualify as tragic in that he had a very full life with no discrimination and his disability didn't harm him in his character arc of trying to get laid. Data was tragic but only seasons later once the Soong/Lore/mama/Lal characters were thrown in. The intro to season one wasn't a collection of broken families and tragedies that I can recall although it's been decades since I rewatched them in full and likely never will again after Picard s1. Also, I may potentially be bringing in backstory elements from season 2 into season 1 above for my examples so apologies for that if I did. Everything pre-beard is a blur!
Well, Yar's tragic backstory was brought up first in the pilot, and was alluded to several times in season one before they killed her off. Worf's may have been ironed out later but the idea that he was raised by humans and that feeling of alienation from what he saw as his 'true' culture has been a part of his character since the beginning.
In TOS we had Spock's well established difficulties being half-human, the fact that Kirk survived an incident where the guy in charge executed a bunch of people to keep up supplies, any number of guest characters that were introduced first and foremost as someone who had lost someone tragically or had their career ruined because someone had hurt themselves under their watch or they'd been born a woman or something.
I'll wait and see how it shakes out but I don't think either they or Disco have an edge on DS9 for number of series regulars with tragic backstories.
warboss wrote: Troi never solved her mother's good natured meddling but it wasn't tragic (though I don't recall how her father died honestly).
I don't think we ever found out about Deanna's dad, but in TNG S7 there's an episode where we find out that Deanna had an older sister named Kestra who drowned as a child and Lwaxana suppressed the memory because it was traumatic and she blamed herself for it. To me, that qualifies as a tragic backstory (more so for Lwaxana than Deanna of course).
So not her introduction at the top of season 1 then. That was my point. We can't compare 7 seasons worth of character backstory and development necessary to make them interesting for almost a decade with the initial introduction. It's supposed to be an elite starship crewed by the best of the best and not an FTL group therapy session. Obviously we don't know for sure if this will continue but so far we have Pike, Khan-lite, Spock, and Uhura in the broken category. I hope Number One turns out to be a well adjusted individual at least along with an optimistic M'benga.
