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 LordofHats wrote:
The implication is that the El-Aurians are not bound by linear time or even universes (alternate Guinan in the Enterprise-C episode had main Guinan's knowledge to a point). As powerful as the Q are, they do seem to be mostly linear. It's possible that the El-Aurians could pose a threat to them there. The Borg thing has always been weird but it could also be that the El-Aurians ended up not featuring much in future Star Trek while the Borg were increasingly a 'defined' quantity by Voyager. They were a lot more mysterious in the TNG days. Maybe they adapted some kind of tactic that worked against the El-Aurians?

Being able to perceive alternate timelines doesn't mean they could defeat the Borg though and from "Yesterdays Enterprise" it seemed that Guinan didn't really have the knowledge as it were but they were more akin to half-remembered memories or feelings than clairvoyance. Plus as soon as the Borg assimilate one El-Aurian the gig is up and the Borg have the ability to perceive alternate timelines as well, something that got brought up in Picard IIRC as something the Queen can do.
As for the Q, they've had limits in the past so it's not a massive shock that it could happen now. It's just the fact that "our" Q is experiencing performance issues when he's always thought of himself as super brilliant and such. Ego and all that.

Just realized I hadn't updated my Orville vs STD tracking for (checks notes) three years.

2018


2019


2022


The Orville seems to be holding steady while Star Trek: Discovery seems to be less well received as time has progressed.

 Gert wrote:

Spoiler:

James Calis (Gaius Balthar from BSG) showing up as a figment of Picard's subconscious in this episode is awesome.

That’s who that was! He looked super familiar and it was bugging me and I kept trying to decide if it was an aged Bashir.

 Shadow Walker wrote:
So episode 7. I do not get it -

Spoiler:

We have a species that can somehow force the Q Continuum to some kind of truce but cannot stop the Borg from assimilating most of them?

As said by others, that's not exactly a new thing about the El-Aurians and the Q, but stranger still...

 Gert wrote:

Spoiler:

Also it seems that the conflict between the El-Aurians and the Q was a cold war.

So wait, a species who has interesting abilities to sense disturbances in the force...had a cold war with the Q, in which the Q were actively threatened. But they couldn't stop the Borg from nearly eradicating them.

Good God this show has been a gak show. Just let it die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Captain Joystick wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
So episode 7. I do not get it -

Spoiler:

We have a species that can somehow force the Q Continuum to some kind of truce but cannot stop the Borg from assimilating most of them?

As said by others, that's not exactly a new thing about the El-Aurians and the Q, but stranger still...

Spoiler:

In Voyager, we have a moment where it seems the Q Continuum have a rule about not provoking the Borg.

Eh. That's a bit of a reach. Little Q was pretty clearly threatened by Big Q to not provoke the Borg, most likely because of their interactions with non-Q species. I doubt the Q have any fear at all of the Borg.

I imagine the Q have a healthy fear of the Borg, given they seem to have a healthy fear of the El Aurians and the Borg have assimilated some number of El Aueians.

 Togusa wrote:

So wait, a species who has interesting abilities to sense disturbances in the force...had a cold war with the Q, in which the Q were actively threatened. But they couldn't stop the Borg from nearly eradicating them.

Good God this show has been a gak show. Just let it die.

All of what you have described is no different from what we knew in TNG. The only new addition was the clarification that the conflict between the El-Aurians and the Q was a cold war. So let's axe TNG yeah?
As has already been explained, the El-Aurians clearly don't have clairvoyance otherwise Guinan would know who Picard is by simply looking into the future. Their abilities with regards to time have been shown as an ability to feel changes in the timeline, as seen in "Yesterday's Enterprise", but even then it's still just feelings or vague memories. As for beating the Borg, the whole thing about the El-Aurians is that they were one of the first races to prove that resistance wasn't futile. But you are willfully ignoring the main traits of the Borg, rapid adaptability and assimilation. If one El-Aurian soldier gets unlucky and is assimilated, that's all the El-Aurian tactics and weapons knowledge in the hands of the enemy.

Just because paper can beat rock, and scissors can then beat that paper, doesn’t means it’s also able to beat rock.

 AduroT wrote:
Just because paper can beat rock, and scissors can then beat that paper, doesn’t means it’s also able to beat rock.

Not sure what you mean?
Do you not think that if the Borg had the biological, technological, cultural, and strategic data on an entire species compared to none previously, then the Borg wouldn't be able to beat the El-Aurians?

It could be that there is a (small) chance that with enough exposure to Q and Q power the Borg has a chance of assimilating it

so the Q stay away from the Borg where possible to minimise the chance of this happening as it's just not worth the risk

 Gert wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
Just because paper can beat rock, and scissors can then beat that paper, doesn’t means it’s also able to beat rock.

Not sure what you mean?
Do you not think that if the Borg had the biological, technological, cultural, and strategic data on an entire species compared to none previously, then the Borg wouldn't be able to beat the El-Aurians?

He was complaining that because the El Aurians we’re able to threaten the Q but got beat by the Borg that it was stupid.

Ahh ok, thanks for the clarification

 Gert wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

So wait, a species who has interesting abilities to sense disturbances in the force...had a cold war with the Q, in which the Q were actively threatened. But they couldn't stop the Borg from nearly eradicating them.

Good God this show has been a gak show. Just let it die.

All of what you have described is no different from what we knew in TNG. The only new addition was the clarification that the conflict between the El-Aurians and the Q was a cold war. So let's axe TNG yeah?
As has already been explained, the El-Aurians clearly don't have clairvoyance otherwise Guinan would know who Picard is by simply looking into the future. Their abilities with regards to time have been shown as an ability to feel changes in the timeline, as seen in "Yesterday's Enterprise", but even then it's still just feelings or vague memories. As for beating the Borg, the whole thing about the El-Aurians is that they were one of the first races to prove that resistance wasn't futile. But you are willfully ignoring the main traits of the Borg, rapid adaptability and assimilation. If one El-Aurian soldier gets unlucky and is assimilated, that's all the El-Aurian tactics and weapons knowledge in the hands of the enemy.

It's not interesting to me. I've made the decisions that I'm not going to finish this season out. Star Trek ended with Enterprise for me, everything after that can be enjoyed by someone else.

Sadly for me another very weak episode.

Doubling down on the El-Aurians are somehow a threat ot the Q was expected but very dispointing. Guinan just does not seem to have anything that could possibly even midly iritate something that lcik their fingers and alter reality.

The Q are not the only ultra powerful extra-dimensional beings - there are quite a few - who never seem to interact....but perhaps they do and their interactions colour what happens with the mortals - maybe the El-Aurians have some powerful patrons or individuals who have ascended. Alot of the Q seem to be like the Ascended in Stargate who stay out of everything as much as possible.

The tedious trip into Picards brain was tedious - again Laris underused.

Most of the cast seem to be doing nothing now - with Rios just repeating Kirks lines and falling for the girl. Dull

The Borg Queen story looked interesting - pity it was so little in the episode

No Q, no Dr Soong - :(

He was complaining that because the El Aurians we’re able to threaten the Q but got beat by the Borg that it was stupid.

Seems stupid to me too - unless they are pacificst or something but then the "Cold War" makes no sense or they are suddenly given lots of magic powers that we have never seen before...but then how did the Borg....circular issues

 Togusa wrote:
It's not interesting to me. I've made the decisions that I'm not going to finish this season out. Star Trek ended with Enterprise for me, everything after that can be enjoyed by someone else.

Then don't comment on it? If you don't know what you're talking about or have no interest why get involved? Let other people enjoy their stuff.

I wonder if the Q's power is perhaps less a snap of the fingers and more that they can just move in time and space really freely. So a lot of their powers appear to be cosmically super powerful, whilst in reality their "power" to affect the world around them is more limited. However they can go back and make a lot of small changes to time so that they result in a big net change in the "present" time that they are interacting with.

Changes that regular species have to just roll with because they can't "see" or feel the changes that took place.

Then when a Q wants an individual, or group, to feel/see those changes, they can isolate them from the timeline changes.

All creating an illusion that the Q can magically summon things or change things from thin air, when in reality they've just gone back and used more minor (but still extreme) powers to change little things.


However the El Aurians CAN feel those changes. Which lets them react very differently compared to other species. Perhaps resist the idea of the Q being Gods and all powerful beings; perhaps even to undo or otherwise see and change the adjustments the Q made.




I'm reminded of the time Sisko punched Q. Q magically makes a whole group in the bar go from normal to cheering around a fighting ring style situation with him and Sisko in the middle. At the time we are given the idea that Q just magically made everyone go along with the idea in a split second. However perhaps Q went back in time instead and made a LOT of little changes here and there. Adjusting things so that the situation evolved and happened. Sisko was isolated from the timeline change so to him its magical finger-clicking power. Everyone else, however, was part of the chain of events that led to that event.



The Q are butterflies - tiny changes produce extreme reults
El are Weathermen - able to predict and see the changes
Borg are the hurricane neither one of the above two can directly control *



*Thinking on it more. Perhaps the Q have already done the whole "messing in a big way" with time and it produced insane results that almost threatened reality and them. So they brought out a lot of regulation and pulled away from interacting much. However the result is they are constrained to a time-line that is the current setting. A timeline that is fairly limited in the scope they are allowed, by their own rules and experiences, to change. So they are more stuck with the Borg as removing them might take considerable changes outside of the scope that they allow themselves/can be allowed. Perhaps even most of the attempts at removing the Borg result in something even worse arising.

 Gert wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
It's not interesting to me. I've made the decisions that I'm not going to finish this season out. Star Trek ended with Enterprise for me, everything after that can be enjoyed by someone else.

Then don't comment on it? If you don't know what you're talking about or have no interest why get involved? Let other people enjoy their stuff.

Look man, it’s very important he follows all these discussions closely so he can make sure to tell you how little he cares about it.

 Gert wrote:

Then don't comment on it? If you don't know what you're talking about or have no interest why get involved? Let other people enjoy their stuff.

If he's supposedly wrong or simply has a different opinion, how does that stop your enjoyment? Are you projecting/superimposing negative posts from Dakka onto your TV while you're streaming the episodes for the first time? Or is the simple existence of a potentially contrary opinion that unnerving? This is a Star Trek thread and he's a fan of trek talking about trek.

Usually when people say "I'm not going to bother with this" they don't keep coming back to continue being negative about it, especially when they end up being factually incorrect with one of their complaints or made it clear they were never going to enjoy this series anyway as they don't enjoy the specific plot device that was chosen. At this point they very specifically are just coming back to be negative.

 warboss wrote:

 Gert wrote:

Then don't comment on it? If you don't know what you're talking about or have no interest why get involved? Let other people enjoy their stuff.

If he's supposedly wrong or simply has a different opinion, how does that stop your enjoyment? Are you projecting/superimposing negative posts from Dakka onto your TV while you're streaming the episodes for the first time? Or is the simple existence of a potentially contrary opinion that unnerving? This is a Star Trek thread and he's a fan of trek talking about trek.

Yet they trip all over themselves to bukkake their hate over AbramsTrek despite the fact that some people actually enjoyed it. "Let people enjoy things, maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan..." apparently only applies so far.

 Overread wrote:
I wonder if the Q's power is perhaps less a snap of the fingers and more that they can just move in time and space really freely. So a lot of their powers appear to be cosmically super powerful, whilst in reality their "power" to affect the world around them is more limited. However they can go back and make a lot of small changes to time so that they result in a big net change in the "present" time that they are interacting with.

Changes that regular species have to just roll with because they can't "see" or feel the changes that took place.

Then when a Q wants an individual, or group, to feel/see those changes, they can isolate them from the timeline changes.

All creating an illusion that the Q can magically summon things or change things from thin air, when in reality they've just gone back and used more minor (but still extreme) powers to change little things.

However the El Aurians CAN feel those changes. Which lets them react very differently compared to other species. Perhaps resist the idea of the Q being Gods and all powerful beings; perhaps even to undo or otherwise see and change the adjustments the Q made.

I'm reminded of the time Sisko punched Q. Q magically makes a whole group in the bar go from normal to cheering around a fighting ring style situation with him and Sisko in the middle. At the time we are given the idea that Q just magically made everyone go along with the idea in a split second. However perhaps Q went back in time instead and made a LOT of little changes here and there. Adjusting things so that the situation evolved and happened. Sisko was isolated from the timeline change so to him its magical finger-clicking power. Everyone else, however, was part of the chain of events that led to that event.

The Q are butterflies - tiny changes produce extreme reults
El are Weathermen - able to predict and see the changes
Borg are the hurricane neither one of the above two can directly control *

*Thinking on it more. Perhaps the Q have already done the whole "messing in a big way" with time and it produced insane results that almost threatened reality and them. So they brought out a lot of regulation and pulled away from interacting much. However the result is they are constrained to a time-line that is the current setting. A timeline that is fairly limited in the scope they are allowed, by their own rules and experiences, to change. So they are more stuck with the Borg as removing them might take considerable changes outside of the scope that they allow themselves/can be allowed. Perhaps even most of the attempts at removing the Borg result in something even worse arising.

Not buying that (unless they retcon alot of things) - the Q have been shown to change things instantly with no issues and on a whim. It also does not solve the problem of a apparently powerless race being able to have a "cold War" with them - it would be like a specific ant colony on earth having a "cold War" with the Federation. Even if the El can see its changed - that makes no difference if they can do nothing about it and if they can do something about it that can match that power then how could the Borg defeat them. The Borg are not that scary if the Confederation (with the same tech as the Federation but just being "evil") can destroy them and Species 8472 dealt with them ease.

It makes zero sense - but I think that it will be just be the narrative - I don't think the writters care that much about such things as long as it moves the plot along - thats been the case for Picard from the start.

Its not complete Gak like Discovery so I am just watching for the fun bits - first two epsiodes were good, but the last one was just tedious.

honestly, regarding Q we need to consider some facts.



I'm beginning to suspect this over all means something...

random theory from left field. Q is a descendant of Picard, and he's trying to protect his very existance

The obvious explanation for the end of the last episode seems likely to be:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
When it comes to “KeEp PoLiTiCS oUt Of MeDiA”, just remember behind such nonsense, especially SciFi and Trek in particular which have always been inherently political? And utterly regardless of how a given SciFi critiques or endorses a political leaning? Those first raising are either intensely stupid, or only there to try to sway folk.

And can probably more accurately be described as “I lack the language and critical skills to explain exactly what it is I disagree with, therefore they just shouldn’t do *that*, because only a political leaning I personally endorse should be allowed. Anything else is (delete as appropriate) communism/fascism, but again only because I lack the social skills, language skills and ability to explain nuance to express myself any other way”.

Without mentioning my own political leanings, because they’re irrelevant to this post? I’ll proper cringe at certain artistic visions for its own lack of nuance/subtlety, just as folk on the other end of the political spectrum might do to stuff I happen to enjoy.

Just don’t ever, ever forget or pretend certain shows didn’t push certain boundaries in their own specific heydays. And don’t demand something drop a political lean just because it doesn’t tickle your pickle.

Don’t be Mary Whitehouse. Your telly has not only an off switch, but also a change channel button. Even better? Unlike when I was proper tiddly wee? You don’t even have to get up off your arse to change said channel these days.

Don’t be a bore. You no like? You no watch.

This is why I don’t watch many shows. Because I don’t enjoy them, and I’ve far, far better things to do with my time than first watch a show I don’t like, let alone jump on the internet to bore others by telling them I don’t like it.

And who said that here, no one.

Star Trek has always had politics in it, that's a given. Doesn't mean it was always well written. Todays Trek handles it like a sledgehammer to the face whenever they get a chance. I'm just waiting for a character to look at the audience (Which isn't much of one) and go, "Isn't that wrong?" whenever the writers hackneyed political compass springs up and gets a chance to shine.

Star Trek has always been plenty blatant and in your face with politics. "Let That be Your Last Battlefield" is the one that comes to mind first from TOS.
We can argue about it being well written, but it's always been there, whether it be a sledgehammer to the face or a ball peen hammer to the fingers.