Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Star Trek has always been plenty blatant and in your face with politics. "Let That be Your Last Battlefield" is the one that comes to mind first from TOS.
We can argue about it being well written, but it's always been there, whether it be a sledgehammer to the face or a ball peen hammer to the fingers.
So what is the future of Star Trek in film, if any, or what should it be?
If you had asked me this question in 2020 I would have said that the future is uncertain, but possibly bright.
Now, in April of 2022, I'd say just let it die. Picard has been an absolute dumpster fire of bad ideas executed horribly. Discovery still hasn't done anything interesting in my opinion and to me is the worst of the franchise in terms of storytelling and characters. Strange New Worlds has an uncertain future, I hold out hope that it *could* be good, but given it's literally the same group of people responsible for the creation of the rest of the recent modern stuff, it will likely be childish, poorly written with one dimensional characters and crummy stories.
Maybe it's time to just let it rest. And, I'll add this: Let Star Wars rest too.
The first time we see Guinan and Q interact in the first TNG episode she makes a hand gesture and Q makes a similar one. They certainly appear to have some kind of opposition toward each other. Q doesn't even risk messing directly with her at any point either - though she also shifted to Guest actress and was in and out and it was a line of the story that we never saw repeated until Picard.
Perhaps whilst the El Aurian's are not all powerful, whatever power they have is like an anti-Q power? Whilst they can reshape the universe or jump through time and space, some element of their being has a negative impact on Q?
Brian's theory that Q and Picard are related does play into the idea of the Q messing with time in little ways to lead to big changes. They have always appeared in very human forms all the time, even though they have no reason too beyond keeping the make-up budget low. Q has never really tried to appear as anything but humanoid. Perhaps they are humans, ascended so far far far in the future time and these little changes he's making are part of guiding humanity (with a slightly forced hand) toward choices that in the end result in a better Q. A kind of self perpetuating destiny thing? Though part of me hopes that isn't the case, its a little too "neat".
Q at war or threatened or even just interested in the galaxy in general is pretty daft. We never really had a reason for their judgement of humanity. We knew that they were judging humanity, but never the reasoning or theories why. Heck perhaps the Q aren't humanity ascended but any race that ascends and humanity is the next on the potential list.
Interesting. I always interoperated those hand gestures in that episode of TNG as nothing more than hand gestures.
Would have been interesting if Guinan was a former traveling companion of our beloved Q, maybe he taught her a few things. The Suicidal Q did tell Tuvok that the Q were simply more advanced than the rest of the Universe and that it was akin to how the federation technology would be viewed by lesser races.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gert wrote: Usually when people say "I'm not going to bother with this" they don't keep coming back to continue being negative about it, especially when they end up being factually incorrect with one of their complaints or made it clear they were never going to enjoy this series anyway as they don't enjoy the specific plot device that was chosen. At this point they very specifically are just coming back to be negative.
Star Trek kept me from putting a bullet in my head when I was a kid. It means a *lot* to me. So yes, I'm going to discuss it when it's good or bad.
Seeing something you love destroyed by other people who are only trying to milk it as a vehicle to make more money and score social and political brownie points does tend to make one upset.
Which complaint of mine is factually incorrect?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/04/18 16:16:48
Star Trek kept me from putting a bullet in my head when I was a kid. It means a *lot* to me. So yes, I'm going to discuss it when it's good or bad.
Seeing something you love destroyed by other people who are only trying to milk it as a vehicle to make more money and score social and political brownie points does tend to make one upset.
Which complaint of mine is factually incorrect?
and honest to god question.. when you where a kid watching star trek, and presumably getting a sense of hope, optimism or whatever stopped you from putting a bullet in your head.. did you nitpick whatever trek series you watched? because TOS (especially TOS it was very..... unformed back then) TNG, DS9 VOY and enterprise ALL had their little inconsistancies.
indeed, I assume you're aware of how controversial and hated TNG, DS9, and Enterprise where all very controversial back in the day. "Picard or Kirk?" wasn't a fun little invite to nerd out back in the early 90s. it was the summoning call for a "geek death battle"
I'm not saying you're not allowed to have your opinion, I'm rather trying to give you some prespective, assuming you're a 30-40 something who grew up watching TNG etc it really might be benifical for you to consider that there where "TOS Grognards" saying the same thing about YOUR Trek shows, back when those shows where important to you
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/20 07:05:11
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
indeed, I assume you're aware of how controversial and hated TNG, DS9, and Enterprise where all very controversial back in the day. "Picard or Kirk?" wasn't a fun little invite to nerd out back in the early 90s. it was the summoning call for a "geek death battle"
I lived through all those and I think they're frequently over inflated in their reported extent to justify modern trek's reception IMO. Admittedly, the switchover to TNG was pre-internet while I was a kid but by the second season I was in a large Trek club of mostly TOS/ TMP fans while also going to conventions and even there it was just a strong preference but not an active dislike of the show let alone its fellow trekkie fans. Maybe this is because the TMP mkvies were still ongoing so classic (for the time) fans were still getting their itch scratched too. Folks who try to downplay the current rift always seem to use the same tired yellowed single article in one local newspaper (which is about as anecdotal as my own example) and a couple of write in letters as examples.
Like you said, it was a fun way to nerd out. Same thing with the supposed Star Trek vs Star Wars fan split and the use off trekkie vs trekker. I don't recall DS9 getting much criticism other than for being set on a station and not a ship and even that was short lived as they got the Defiant soon enough (3rd season?). The darker war setting and tone bothered some but the stories and characters more than made up for it at the time let alone its aging like fine wine into many folks favorite series in the decades since. VOY and especially ENT got online criticism that was progressively stronger but IMO that was in proportion to the decreased strength/quality of the shows as well as corporate bungling not seen since the cancellation of TOS the first time. And I say that as a big fan of late ENT and fair weather fan of VOY who skipped out on portions of both during the original runs.
Either way, none of the above remotely compare to the complete rebooting we got with jjtrek or the complete upending in characters/setting/tone/values nutrek gave us nor the switch to countering criticism of a show with attacks on fellow fans versus their content. There have always been a tiny handful of truly hateful actually toxic commenters but only recently (not even with jjtrek) has it become the default to pretend that the baseline response to criticism needs to tar everyone with that brush.
Star Trek kept me from putting a bullet in my head when I was a kid. It means a *lot* to me. So yes, I'm going to discuss it when it's good or bad.
Seeing something you love destroyed by other people who are only trying to milk it as a vehicle to make more money and score social and political brownie points does tend to make one upset.
Which complaint of mine is factually incorrect?
and honest to god question.. when you where a kid watching star trek, and presumably getting a sense of hope, optimism or whatever stopped you from putting a bullet in your head.. did you nitpick whatever trek series you watched? because TOS (especially TOS it was very..... unformed back then) TNG, DS9 VOY and enterprise ALL had their little inconsistancies.
indeed, I assume you're aware of how controversial and hated TNG, DS9, and Enterprise where all very controversial back in the day. "Picard or Kirk?" wasn't a fun little invite to nerd out back in the early 90s. it was the summoning call for a "geek death battle"
I'm not saying you're not allowed to have your opinion, I'm rather trying to give you some prespective, assuming you're a 30-40 something who grew up watching TNG etc it really might be benifical for you to consider that there where "TOS Grognards" saying the same thing about YOUR Trek shows, back when those shows where important to you
Not really. Back then I felt lucky enough just to have a television to watch it, and to be frank I had only three friends growing up and none of them liked Trek. It was something my Dad and I watched together. As an adult now, I am aware of a lot of the stuff that went on back then with the fanbase.
The thing is, I don't equate the two.
There were good and not so good episodes of the 90s and 60s Treks and I've never really cared for any of the films except Generations, which I think was the best.
But to say that its the same as what's going on now is a stretch. Kurtzman has been on record saying that he sees the show as a vehicle for his own political views. We could argue or discuss the merits of those views, but I think it's not really that useful and will only lead to the thread being locked. Suffice it to say, I do not believe that Kurtzman, Bad Robot or the writers are all that interested in taking what has been built up and making it better, but instead are trying to fulfill the wishes of Paramount Execs and turn a profit. These shows don't just have a few bad episodes, they're objectively bad all around with poorly written characters, scenarios that are pale shadows of their ancestors writing quality. Just stop for a moment and ask yourself why almost everything from Discovery to Strange New Worlds has been either a prequel or soft reboot? So far, Picard is the only show to make the attempt to continue on after the conclusion of Voyager.
I do hear what you are saying, but as Warboss said (and I think they are much better at communication than I am) it's just not the same.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/20 15:51:10
I, too, was around back then, involved with the fandom and attending conventions. Things back then were not at all the same, and it is disingenuous to pretend they are. Even as someone who likely agrees with the politics, I hate what Trek has become. It’s dour and joyless, myopic and bleak, lacking wonder and character. I wouldn’t want to live in Picard’s Federation or even spend time there.
BlackoCatto wrote: I'm just waiting for a character to look at the audience (Which isn't much of one) and go, "Isn't that wrong?"
Maybe they can revive those post-episode messages like Inspector Gadget, He-Man etc use to have for you
Ex-Mantic Rules Committees: Kings of War, Warpath
"The Emperor is obviously not a dictator, he's a couch." Starbuck: "Why can't we use the starboard launch bays?"
Engineer: "Because it's a gift shop!"
Episode 8 - its revelation was unexpected, and still does not solves El-Aurian puzzle, but at least explains Q's behavior. I guess we will get two episodes ending like with season 1.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I, too, was around back then, involved with the fandom and attending conventions. Things back then were not at all the same, and it is disingenuous to pretend they are. Even as someone who likely agrees with the politics, I hate what Trek has become. It’s dour and joyless, myopic and bleak, lacking wonder and character. I wouldn’t want to live in Picard’s Federation or even spend time there.
I think a lot of people get stuck on the politics of it, rather than realizing that it's not the politics that most people have an issue with. I wish I could exalt you more than once, but this: It’s dour and joyless, myopic and bleak, lacking wonder and character. I wouldn’t want to live in Picard’s Federation or even spend time there. is the issue.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Even as someone who likely agrees with the politics, I hate what Trek has become. It’s dour and joyless, myopic and bleak, lacking wonder and character. I wouldn’t want to live in Picard’s Federation or even spend time there.
This right here sums it up. My wife and I are actually re-watching TNG right now and even though it has a lot of campy nonsense, cartoonish antics, and more than a little cringe... it's just so bright and happy and upbeat! I grew up watching this and wanting to live in its universe. In the bleakest moments of my own life, I have looked at the Trek future as a reason to keep going.
The simple, beautiful belief that things might get better is not something to casually throw away.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I, too, was around back then, involved with the fandom and attending conventions. Things back then were not at all the same, and it is disingenuous to pretend they are. Even as someone who likely agrees with the politics, I hate what Trek has become. It’s dour and joyless, myopic and bleak, lacking wonder and character. I wouldn’t want to live in Picard’s Federation or even spend time there.
I think a lot of people get stuck on the politics of it, rather than realizing that it's not the politics that most people have an issue with. I wish I could exalt you more than once, but this: It’s dour and joyless, myopic and bleak, lacking wonder and character. I wouldn’t want to live in Picard’s Federation or even spend time there. is the issue.
They don't get stuck on it, it is an easy way to shut down dissenting opinions when someone can be attacked for imagined slights upon said politics and beliefs, even if no sane human could make the connection.
One way to put it might be that new Trek spends too much time on how the Federation is a dysfunctional mess, which runs counter to what I'd like to see out of Star Trek.
Fundamentally it is a problem of telling instead of showing. TOS/TNG had them acting like they believed in Federation ideals whereas STD has Burnham giving speeches about how great the Federation is.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Whilst we don't get an answer about the cold war with the Q, it strikes me that we are simply overlooking the most simplistic possible answer. We keep thinking of their relationship with the Q being a fairly "new" thing. Of being pretty recent.
Perhaps its far more ancient and perhaps in those much much more ancient times the El were vastly more powerful. More akin to the Q. So a cold war then would make perfect sense.
Then at some stage the balance shifted. The El perhaps gave up, sacrificed or exchanged some part of themselves. They became "lesser" than the Q and the cold war ended. However the relationship was maintained. Which would certainly explain why the El have such a feeling of betrayal that the Q didn't save them nor even warn them.
Heck perhaps the El and the Q were not even different species but the same species. That the cold war was very much one of political and idealistic elements.
Its the most simplistic way to explain how a race who apparently has nothing super-extraordinary over other aliens in the setting; could be considered near equals to the Q enough to have once been in a cold war with them.
I really hope we are not going to say the Borg was created by this whole thing but it looks a possibility.
The doomed romance is quite cute...
The Fox Mulder wannabe was weak....and if his destiny meant wasting his entire life just to arrest and then let go Picard - thats very very sad....
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
I have to sort of agree that the whole police angle seemed like a storyline that they started and then ran out of steam with and ended very suddenly.
I'm assuming that the power in the scene is that it was that policeman that got hold of the security video and not another person in the department. So it does have some weight in terms of protecting and ensuring Picard's mission succeeds. It's also quite a Star Trek scene all told that he'd actually met vulcans and such. It works well, it just kinda feels like it had a huge amount of gravity and then sort of -- fizzled.
Meanwhile the whole astral projection aspect was very interesting. It's part of what made me wonder if the El used to have more formidable powers and gave up access/use/ability of them. Leaving them with echos of their former power; like sensing temporal changes and, what seems to be, limited astral projection powers.
It also gave us a better idea why Rafi went into full meltdown mode. That she saw her own manipulative nature resulting in the loss of of one she loved very dearly and had bonded with almost as close as one of her own children. If not perhaps closer considering we've seen some of her actual relationships on that front in a scene in the first series.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/25 20:20:46
I have to sort of agree that the whole police angle seemed like a storyline that they started and then ran out of steam with and ended very suddenly.
I'm assuming that the power in the scene is that it was that policeman that got hold of the security video and not another person in the department. So it does have some weight in terms of protecting and ensuring Picard's mission succeeds. It's also quite a Star Trek scene all told that he'd actually met vulcans and such. It works well, it just kinda feels like it had a huge amount of gravity and then sort of -- fizzled.
Meanwhile the whole astral projection aspect was very interesting. It's part of what made me wonder if the El used to have more formidable powers and gave up access/use/ability of them. Leaving them with echos of their former power; like sensing temporal changes and, what seems to be, limited astral projection powers.
It also gave us a better idea why Rafi went into full meltdown mode. That she saw her own manipulative nature resulting in the loss of of one she loved very dearly and had bonded with almost as close as one of her own children. If not perhaps closer considering we've seen some of her actual relationships on that front in a scene in the first series.
Some things we do know.
El-Aurians have long lifespans. Q and Guinan had dealings with each other over two centuries prior to Stardate 42761.9 (Q introduces Humanity to the Borg). They're aware of Subtle changes to their timeline, recall in Yesterday's Enterprise that Guinan basically only knew that something had changed, not what it actually was. She had a bit more information about Tasha's fate as well. The wiki entry for the species claims that she had enough "power" to threaten a Q, but let's be honest. All she did was contort her fingers at him as he did to her. Unlike Q though, we've never seen Guinan do anything that could be seen as a power and that "threat" is likely nothing at all. There is also debate as to whether or not the El-Aurian powers were a natural function of their biology, or were the result of exposure to the Nexus. We know that the Q were the first society to reach their level of development in the universe according to Quinn, and we know that they were capable of killing each other with specially made weapons which had a disastrous effect on Subspace and Realspace.
But what is the point of all of this?
Still, I'm 8 episodes in and I still do not understand what in the world the story here is supposed to be about.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/25 22:29:49
The main story is Picard finding a way to prevent the fascist dystopian future.
The side stories are Q being broken, Raffi/Seven having a dysfunctional relationship, the Borg Queen doing Borg things, Picard getting over trauma, and Rios getting a girlfriend from the past who will 100% go to the future because timeline shenanigans.
Gert wrote: The main story is Picard finding a way to prevent the fascist dystopian future.
Criminal underworlds, the Federation (regardless of the century), isolationist Earth, fascist Earth, Vulcans, the Borg, double super secret societies that everyone knows about, Klingons, the Mirror Universe Empire... pretty much everything that is already the cause of every major non-tribble calamity or will inevitably be is happens under the watch of a matriarchy. Seems like researching an end to the pervasive misandry of the bleak dystopian future might be a good starting point according to the limited plot potential of nutrek...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/25 23:11:12
warboss wrote: Criminal underworlds, the Federation (regardless of the century), isolationist Earth, fascist Earth, Vulcans, the Borg, double super secret societies that everyone knows about, Klingons, the Mirror Universe Empire... pretty much everything that is already the cause of every major non-tribble calamity or will inevitably be is happens under the watch of a matriarchy. Seems like researching an end to the pervasive misandry of the bleak dystopian future might be a good starting point according to the limited plot potential of nutrek...
I do not have the words to describe the idiocy you have inflicted upon me...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/25 23:21:19
Gert wrote: The main story is Picard finding a way to prevent the fascist dystopian future.
The side stories are Q being broken, Raffi/Seven having a dysfunctional relationship, the Borg Queen doing Borg things, Picard getting over trauma, and Rios getting a girlfriend from the past who will 100% go to the future because timeline shenanigans.
To be fair because of the huge war/ecosystem collapse that takes place in the normal timeline there's a lot of scope for messing with this period in the time line and it not having vast ramifications because a LOT of those people will wind up dead and not mattering to the main thrust of the timeline. Ergo whatever differences might arise are little ripples not big waves. We've seen this well established before a few times - heck when Kirk went back they gave certain tech to a company to get what they needed in trade with the line "how do we know he wasn't the guy who invented it in the first place"
warboss wrote: Criminal underworlds, the Federation (regardless of the century), isolationist Earth, fascist Earth, Vulcans, the Borg, double super secret societies that everyone knows about, Klingons, the Mirror Universe Empire... pretty much everything that is already the cause of every major non-tribble calamity or will inevitably be is happens under the watch of a matriarchy. Seems like researching an end to the pervasive misandry of the bleak dystopian future might be a good starting point according to the limited plot potential of nutrek...
I do not have the words to describe the idiocy you have inflicted upon me...
I have to sort of agree that the whole police angle seemed like a storyline that they started and then ran out of steam with and ended very suddenly.
I'm assuming that the power in the scene is that it was that policeman that got hold of the security video and not another person in the department. So it does have some weight in terms of protecting and ensuring Picard's mission succeeds. It's also quite a Star Trek scene all told that he'd actually met vulcans and such. It works well, it just kinda feels like it had a huge amount of gravity and then sort of -- fizzled.
Meanwhile the whole astral projection aspect was very interesting. It's part of what made me wonder if the El used to have more formidable powers and gave up access/use/ability of them. Leaving them with echos of their former power; like sensing temporal changes and, what seems to be, limited astral projection powers.
It also gave us a better idea why Rafi went into full meltdown mode. That she saw her own manipulative nature resulting in the loss of of one she loved very dearly and had bonded with almost as close as one of her own children. If not perhaps closer considering we've seen some of her actual relationships on that front in a scene in the first series.
Some things we do know.
El-Aurians have long lifespans.
Q and Guinan had dealings with each other over two centuries prior to Stardate 42761.9 (Q introduces Humanity to the Borg).
They're aware of Subtle changes to their timeline, recall in Yesterday's Enterprise that Guinan basically only knew that something had changed, not what it actually was. She had a bit more information about Tasha's fate as well.
The wiki entry for the species claims that she had enough "power" to threaten a Q, but let's be honest. All she did was contort her fingers at him as he did to her. Unlike Q though, we've never seen Guinan do anything that could be seen as a power and that "threat" is likely nothing at all. There is also debate as to whether or not the El-Aurian powers were a natural function of their biology, or were the result of exposure to the Nexus.
We know that the Q were the first society to reach their level of development in the universe according to Quinn, and we know that they were capable of killing each other with specially made weapons which had a disastrous effect on Subspace and Realspace.
But what is the point of all of this?
Still, I'm 8 episodes in and I still do not understand what in the world the story here is supposed to be about.
The Nexus wasn't an El-Aurian thing. In general it was just some kind of energy ripple that moved through space where, if you could come into contact with it in the right way you could enter into it. At which point time had no meaning within the ripple and you were typically placed in a state of high contentment. The Guinan Picard meets within was her from back when the starship first got impacted by the Nexus, same as how he met Kirk and brought Kirk with him into the present time (for Picard). Guinan essentially guided Picard to where Kirk had just entered and was first discovering the Nexus.
In the end it was a whole film about one mans madness to return to a state of perfect bliss and contentment.
The only El-Aurian side to things is that the Guinan within the Nexus appeared to have some ability to exchange information with herself outside of it in some form so that she knew who he was. Though its been some time since I've seen the film to remember that scene perfectly.
I think the Wiki for Star Trek basically talks about that first meeting of Guinan and Q in the very first episode of TNG. Where a relationship is established, but we never really return to those two interacting on that kind of front until right now in the Picard series. I think the only other time she acts with Q is when Q is stripped of his powers and sent to live a mortal life (although now I say that I've a feeling she might not have even then).
Otherwise we never revisit that story aspect and most of Guinans stories thereafter relate more to her mystical elements which are hinted at but mostly tend to be "I'm a better counsellor than the ships counsellor" and her long lifespan when they do a little time jumping.
The whole Cold War thing is only something we've discovered in Picard and we still have no answer as to the power relation between the two species nor much of their history. And we might never get that. Indeed sometimes its nice to have things we don't have all the answers too because it generates discussion, debate and thought.
I have to sort of agree that the whole police angle seemed like a storyline that they started and then ran out of steam with and ended very suddenly.
I'm assuming that the power in the scene is that it was that policeman that got hold of the security video and not another person in the department. So it does have some weight in terms of protecting and ensuring Picard's mission succeeds. It's also quite a Star Trek scene all told that he'd actually met vulcans and such. It works well, it just kinda feels like it had a huge amount of gravity and then sort of -- fizzled.
Meanwhile the whole astral projection aspect was very interesting. It's part of what made me wonder if the El used to have more formidable powers and gave up access/use/ability of them. Leaving them with echos of their former power; like sensing temporal changes and, what seems to be, limited astral projection powers.
It also gave us a better idea why Rafi went into full meltdown mode. That she saw her own manipulative nature resulting in the loss of of one she loved very dearly and had bonded with almost as close as one of her own children. If not perhaps closer considering we've seen some of her actual relationships on that front in a scene in the first series.
True on the Rafi front - she was less insuferable - but is she actually learning from her mistakes?
We need more of the delectable Laris instead.
Also whats with the
[/spoiler] Only humans can see their faults and grow and evolve [spoiler] nonsense
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Only humans can see their faults and grow and evolve
nonsense
Did they say that? I tend to do warhams when I watch shows so I might have missed that bit.
Regardless, we've had plenty of races in the past learn to grow and change. The Bajorans and Cardassians did it in DS9, the Klingons a bit as well. The Vulcans did it in Enterprise and man do I wish that had gone on so we could see more of the Federation's founding years if only to see the NX-01 Enterprise look like this:
Spoiler:
I'm sure there are other examples elsewhere as well.
True on the Rafi front - she was less insuferable - but is she actually learning from her mistakes?
We need more of the delectable Laris instead.
Also whats with the
[/spoiler] Only humans can see their faults and grow and evolve
Spoiler:
nonsense
[spoiler]
Rafi is a mature character, she can learn from her mistakes but changing habits of a lifetime takes more than a few hours of shock therapy and time travel. She might well change before the end though; she's only really just coming to terms with the realisation.
I think the humans aspect is more that many of the other races seem to display more niched emotional and developmental states. Humans are a bit like the Eldar of the Star Trek Universe. They feel and engage on a deep level with such a wide variety of elements; more so than the other races who seem to have particular focuses as a culture. Whilst that focus can change over time, its still pretty singular or limited. Humans are presented as far more highly diverse. I think that's kind of what they are getting at if in a sot of rough manner. Humanity is the most diverse and thus has the most to overcome as a whole.
