A thought popped in my head as I was reading over Lucious' profile, what would happen if a Grey Knight killed him instead of just a run of the mill space marine? Is Lucious' power based off more of a curse like the one that affects Draigo therefore the Grey Knight would begin his transformation into the twisted form of Lucious or is a corruption that a Grey Knight could use its power to resist? I mean it is the will of Slaanesh so a Grey Knight would still fall to it but would that count as a Grey Knight falling to Chaos or just being killed by Lucious?

As much as I love the Grey Knights this is still something that is over their heads. Honestly, I don't think I would count it as a Grey Knight falling to Chaos but I still think the ever rebirth of Lucious would go on.

It would probably count as the GK being killed by Lucius.

They must feel pride over the kill first for it to work.

I am not sure if a GK would fall for that.

Why not?

I vote for the Inquisitor that was responsible for having the GK show up where Lucious was in the first place. Those guys are notorious for turning to Chaos.

Also, it's Lucius.

 Ashiraya wrote:
They must feel pride over the kill first for it to work.

I am not sure if a GK would fall for that.

Of course they would, Astartes basically have pride hard-wired into them and the Grey Knights are no exception. It isn't just pride that will trigger it either.

Also worth noting that it's not just pride. The CSM codex describes the effect as anyone who takes "even a moment of satisfaction from the act" as falling into Slaanesh's trap.

I guess it's a little vague. Does lucious bubble up from below and slowly overtake the previous occupant of that bit of mortal flesh, or does the person himself convert into lucious?

It feels more like the former than the latter. The person doesn't transform into what he vanquished, more than lucious dies and then comes back in the world's most depraved version of tag. It's the armor of shrieking souls because his victims are unwilling participants in the process.

I'd think that a GK soul would shriek extra loudly, knowing that he was the emperor's purest and finest before he was imprisoned in demon armor.

clively wrote:
I vote for the Inquisitor that was responsible for having the GK show up where Lucious was in the first place. Those guys are notorious for turning to Chaos.

The GK don't rely on the Inquisition. The Grey Knights are capable of surviving almost automonously. Sure, Inquisitorial sanction helps but the Grey Knights have old, wizened Astartes called Prognosticars to predict the locations of Daemonic incursions.

Lucius has been sort of retconned, prior to taking over a body that feels pride he was killed, dead as a door nail and apothecary fabius declared him as such, and then he came to life again and no one knows why, fluff wise only 1 other faction can do this to date and that the perpetuals, ref: Angel exterminatus.

And Thawn.

 Ailaros wrote:
And Thawn.

Thawn is a perpetual

Is he? Grey knights codex yeah, justicar thawn?

 Formosa wrote:
Is he? Grey knights codex yeah, justicar thawn?

Yup, read the short story The Ghost Halls. The Eldar recognize him as the last perpetual.

Well the elderp are mistaken clearly, there's the big e and lots of other perpetuals running around, unless they all somehow died during and after the heresy.

 Formosa wrote:
Well the elderp are mistaken clearly, there's the big e and lots of other perpetuals running around, unless they all somehow died during and after the heresy.

I'm not sure the Emperor really counts as a perpetual at this point. If the Star Child prophecy is true then he can be resurrected, but he apparently will not just resurrect on his own. If that were the case then he wouldn't have bothered telling Dorn how to rig the Golden Throne to act as his life support.

EDIT: The old Lost and the Damned claims that the battle with Horus literally removed the Emperor's soul from his body, and that his soul is roaming the warp. He uses his body connected to the Golden Throne as a conduit through which he can wield his power in the material realm. Not sure if this is still valid or not though.

That makes sense

So I wonder what happened to all the other ones, as by my last count there are what? 4 and the emp kicking round in the heresy, possibly 5 if lucius does indeed turn out to be one too.

There are some that say Vulkan is currently acting as a statue in Trazyn's personal museum...

But what if someone who killed Lucius happen to be a mentally ill guy which killed him accidentally and have no feeling

 Formosa wrote:
Lucius has been sort of retconned, prior to taking over a body that feels pride he was killed, dead as a door nail and apothecary fabius declared him as such, and then he came to life again and no one knows why, fluff wise only 1 other faction can do this to date and that the perpetuals, ref: Angel exterminatus.

I am actually getting through Angel Exterminatus right now. It kind takes the allure away if they retconned it although it had me thinking of why Slaanesh would care about one lowly space marine.

I think he was a perpetuall that was corrupted by slaanesh and it's original form of reincarnation was perverted into something new, it is also stated in another book that perpetuals are coveted by deamons more than any other soul and this could account for slaaneshs interest in a lowly space marine.

 Metaljunx wrote:
But what if someone who killed Lucius happen to be a mentally ill guy which killed him accidentally and have no feeling

Then Slaanesh would resurrect him elsewhere.

Or, you know, use warp magic to fix the mental illness and then direct a few cultists to inform the person how proud they should be that they killed lucious.

It just says if the person takes pride, not takes pride immediately. Even if it took a few years and some machinations of a chaos god, it would still be fixable.

 Ailaros wrote:
Or, you know, use warp magic to fix the mental illness and then direct a few cultists to inform the person how proud they should be that they killed lucious.

It just says if the person takes pride, not takes pride immediately. Even if it took a few years and some machinations of a chaos god, it would still be fixable.

The simple solution to Lucius? Don't kill him, dismember him, then lock up his armless, legless body. Eventually his lust for stimulation will drive him to suicide. Problem solved.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Or, you know, use warp magic to fix the mental illness and then direct a few cultists to inform the person how proud they should be that they killed lucious.

It just says if the person takes pride, not takes pride immediately. Even if it took a few years and some machinations of a chaos god, it would still be fixable.

The simple solution to Lucius? Don't kill him, dismember him, then lock up his armless, legless body. Eventually his lust for stimulation will drive him to suicide. Problem solved.

A limbless body can't commit suicide...

Plus Slaanesh would probably just regenerate him anyway.

 Wyzilla wrote:
A limbless body can't commit suicide...

Oh yea of little faith.

I think a quasi-immortal monster with acid saliva as well as the voice of a quasi-omnipresent deity in his head could probably figure it out.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
A limbless body can't commit suicide...

Oh yea of little faith.

I think a quasi-immortal monster with acid saliva as well as the voice of a quasi-omnipresent deity in his head could probably figure it out.

Except Astartes are sometimes depicted as being immune to their own acid. So he couldn't burn himself to death.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Or, you know, use warp magic to fix the mental illness and then direct a few cultists to inform the person how proud they should be that they killed lucious.

It just says if the person takes pride, not takes pride immediately. Even if it took a few years and some machinations of a chaos god, it would still be fixable.

The simple solution to Lucius? Don't kill him, dismember him, then lock up his armless, legless body. Eventually his lust for stimulation will drive him to suicide. Problem solved.

A limbless body can't commit suicide...

Plus Slaanesh would probably just regenerate him anyway.

He could smash his head repeatedly against the adamantium floor. Bite or melt the metal enough that he has a jagged piece and could put it in his mouth and use his tongue to push it up into his brain.

Get creative!

 Metaljunx wrote:
But what if someone who killed Lucius happen to be a mentally ill guy which killed him accidentally and have no feeling

On a similar note: what if Lucius was unknowingly killed by say; an artillery shell and then the gunner(s) we're killed before finding out they'd killed him? Therefore no moment of satisfaction.

Or you could just kill the mentally ill guy.

Also: what happens if someone else takes satisfaction in that Lucius has been killed rather that having actually killed by said person. Eg. The gunners from the tank die but then the commander finds out Lucius dies and then share a moment of satisfaction. Does Lucius take the commander's body?

And them what happens if Lucius is killed by a Mechanicum Adept who has long been unable to feel the emotion of satisfaction and/or has no flesh for Lucius to take over?

I feel like I could come up with more of these but I think I'd better stop... What do you guys think of the scenarios?

What if a servitor with a heavy bolter gunned him down?

 Imperator_Class wrote:
What if a servitor with a heavy bolter gunned him down?

Then heavy bolter twists and mutates and you end up with Lucius as a Mutilator.

Lucius wins hands down.

He is chaos now. A soul willing to bend the will of others, but a soul that knows that the true outcome of all things is chaos.

The Grey Knight would be a perfect challenge for the student of perfection.

It would definitely be a good fight, but chaos is the only true answer. If you decide to inflict harm upon others, you might as well get to the core of the issue - chaos.

Lucius would beat the grey knight.

 Formosa wrote:
Lucius has been sort of retconned, prior to taking over a body that feels pride he was killed, dead as a door nail and apothecary fabius declared him as such, and then he came to life again and no one knows why, fluff wise only 1 other faction can do this to date and that the perpetuals, ref: Angel exterminatus.

Fabius revivea him does he not. It jas heen a while since I read that and I have to say I was rooing for the raven guard the whole time but it ends with him waking up in Fabius' lab with the strange creatures breaking out or something? Again been a long time since I last read it.

 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
Lucius wins hands down.

He is chaos now. A soul willing to bend the will of others, but a soul that knows that the true outcome of all things is chaos.

The Grey Knight would be a perfect challenge for the student of perfection.

It would definitely be a good fight, but chaos is the only true answer. If you decide to inflict harm upon others, you might as well get to the core of the issue - chaos.

Lucius would beat the grey knight.

That is why the Grey Knights are the bane against Chaos, the force the Imperium calls when no others can stand against the tide. The force that beat Mortarion. Also, with the ret-con in Angel Exterminatus , Lucius is defeated by a Raven Guard Shadow Captain Nykona Sharrowkin and resurrected by Fabius and with how much Grey Knights train at sword play, a Grey Knight would be more than a match for Lucius. The question was whether the power would over take a Grey Knight who is not conditioned to feel pride and has wards against Chaos.

I doubt that the Grey Knight would cave. The GK are made out to be completely single-minded and soulless. But, Lucius is one of the greatest swordsmen alive, so it would take a least a Grand Master to defeat him in the first place.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
I doubt that the Grey Knight would cave. The GK are made out to be completely single-minded and soulless. But, Lucius is one of the greatest swordsmen alive, so it would take a least a Grand Master to defeat him in the first place.

Rediculous claim. Lucius has been killed a large number of times. Its quite possible he can be defeated. Hell, Kharn and Abaddon and Draigo, as well as Brotherhood Champions, who like Lucius train exclusively with the sword all their life to become master swordsman, have the same WS as him in-game. Skulltaker has more I think (8?), as does Castellan Crowe, who beat Skulltaker (Khorne's first Herald and Bloodletter). I reckon Crowe could win. Not with ease but win. A Brotherhood Champion would be 50/50 IMO, if plot armour went out the window.

In-game WS is 100% irrelevant in the 40K background forum.

 Ashiraya wrote:
In-game WS is 100% irrelevant in the 40K background forum.

Rules come from fluff. If a model in game has higher WS than another its because its a better swordsman/fighter. This may not always be reflected in the fluff due to plot armour. Lucius especially, along with Abaddon, Kharn, Typhus, Ahriman, Fabius. I'm sure Ben Counter would have loved to write an epic battle between Garviel Loken and Abaddon with Loken eventually winning through sheer luck and plot armour...but Abaddon must live because 40k. Likewise, I'm sure if Lucius was just a random face like Nero Vipus (a Luna Wolf loyal to Loken, and promptly died with little impact on the events around him), he could have been killed off during the Siege.

Castellan Crowe is a superior swordsman.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
In-game WS is 100% irrelevant in the 40K background forum.

Rules come from fluff. If a model in game has higher WS than another its because its a better swordsman/fighter. This may not always be reflected in the fluff due to plot armour. Lucius especially, along with Abaddon, Kharn, Typhus, Ahriman, Fabius. I'm sure Ben Counter would have loved to write an epic battle between Garviel Loken and Abaddon with Loken eventually winning through sheer luck and plot armour...but Abaddon must live because 40k. Likewise, I'm sure if Lucius was just a random face like Nero Vipus (a Luna Wolf loyal to Loken, and promptly died with little impact on the events around him), he could have been killed off during the Siege.

Castellan Crowe is a superior swordsman.

Yes, do continue and explain how a basic Warboss is a more skilled fighter than a Space Marine Honor Guard. Or why a naked Imperial Guard Company Commander can take thrice as many Heavy Bolter shells as a naked Guardsman.

The stats should never be taken as proof of anything.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
I doubt that the Grey Knight would cave. The GK are made out to be completely single-minded and soulless. But, Lucius is one of the greatest swordsmen alive, so it would take a least a Grand Master to defeat him in the first place.

Rediculous claim. Lucius has been killed a large number of times. Its quite possible he can be defeated. Hell, Kharn and Abaddon and Draigo, as well as Brotherhood Champions, who like Lucius train exclusively with the sword all their life to become master swordsman, have the same WS as him in-game. Skulltaker has more I think (8?), as does Castellan Crowe, who beat Skulltaker (Khorne's first Herald and Bloodletter). I reckon Crowe could win. Not with ease but win. A Brotherhood Champion would be 50/50 IMO, if plot armour went out the window.

1) rules does not equal fluff. Unless you can explain to me how Ork Nobs are more skilled than a space marine, or how a Lascannon to the face will kill Dante but not Calgar.
2) Lucius only has 2 deaths on record. His death against Sharrowkyn, which most chalk up to plot armor, and his death to Cyrus, who had Artificer Armor and a power spear when Lucius only had a toga and a sparring blade.
3) you make a claim of Lucius' training being comparable to Crowe's. Lucius has been alive for 10,000 years of which almost everyday is a struggle for survival shile Crowe has been alive 2000> years and not all of which has been fighting, most has been sparring. Now I'm no Math expert, but it seems like 10,000 years of fighting>2,000 years of some fighting and mostly sparring.
4) I own both the GK and Daemon codex and have never seen a mention of Crowe and Skulltaker fighting.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
In-game WS is 100% irrelevant in the 40K background forum.

Rules come from fluff. If a model in game has higher WS than another its because its a better swordsman/fighter. This may not always be reflected in the fluff due to plot armour. Lucius especially, along with Abaddon, Kharn, Typhus, Ahriman, Fabius. I'm sure Ben Counter would have loved to write an epic battle between Garviel Loken and Abaddon with Loken eventually winning through sheer luck and plot armour...but Abaddon must live because 40k. Likewise, I'm sure if Lucius was just a random face like Nero Vipus (a Luna Wolf loyal to Loken, and promptly died with little impact on the events around him), he could have been killed off during the Siege.

Castellan Crowe is a superior swordsman.

5) I don't recall any fluff saying Nero Vipus was the pre-imminent swordsman of his legion, or even his company.
6) so my claim is somehow ridiculous but all of your "evidence" against it has been opinion-based.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
I doubt that the Grey Knight would cave. The GK are made out to be completely single-minded and soulless. But, Lucius is one of the greatest swordsmen alive, so it would take a least a Grand Master to defeat him in the first place.

Rediculous claim. Lucius has been killed a large number of times. Its quite possible he can be defeated. Hell, Kharn and Abaddon and Draigo, as well as Brotherhood Champions, who like Lucius train exclusively with the sword all their life to become master swordsman, have the same WS as him in-game. Skulltaker has more I think (8?), as does Castellan Crowe, who beat Skulltaker (Khorne's first Herald and Bloodletter). I reckon Crowe could win. Not with ease but win. A Brotherhood Champion would be 50/50 IMO, if plot armour went out the window.

1) rules does not equal fluff. Unless you can explain to me how Ork Nobs are more skilled than a space marine, or how a Lascannon to the face will kill Dante but not Calgar.
2) Lucius only has 2 deaths on record. His death against Sharrowkyn, which most chalk up to plot armor, and his death to Cyrus, who had Artificer Armor and a power spear when Lucius only had a toga and a sparring blade.
3) you make a claim of Lucius' training being comparable to Crowe's. Lucius has been alive for 10,000 years of which almost everyday is a struggle for survival shile Crowe has been alive 2000> years and not all of which has been fighting, most has been sparring. Now I'm no Math expert, but it seems like 10,000 years of fighting>2,000 years of some fighting and mostly sparring.
4) I own both the GK and Daemon codex and have never seen a mention of Crowe and Skulltaker fighting.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
In-game WS is 100% irrelevant in the 40K background forum.

Rules come from fluff. If a model in game has higher WS than another its because its a better swordsman/fighter. This may not always be reflected in the fluff due to plot armour. Lucius especially, along with Abaddon, Kharn, Typhus, Ahriman, Fabius. I'm sure Ben Counter would have loved to write an epic battle between Garviel Loken and Abaddon with Loken eventually winning through sheer luck and plot armour...but Abaddon must live because 40k. Likewise, I'm sure if Lucius was just a random face like Nero Vipus (a Luna Wolf loyal to Loken, and promptly died with little impact on the events around him), he could have been killed off during the Siege.

Castellan Crowe is a superior swordsman.

5) I don't recall any fluff saying Nero Vipus was the pre-imminent swordsman of his legion, or even his company.
6) so my claim is somehow ridiculous but all of your "evidence" against it has been opinion-based.

1) Rules do have a basis in fluff. If there is no fluff there is no justification for rules. Nobs are more skilled combatants in melee than a Marine, because Nobs live, breathe, eat, sleep and gak for warfare, and melee in particular. They relish it and love every second. They are naturals A Nob wouldn't last long enough to ecome a Nob if he wasn't a great fighter. Either an enemy or another Ork would have killed him long ago. Space Marines train for years, probably hate the necessity of their job (I'm sure they'd much rather have a peaceful galaxy with no threat or war), and rarely specialise in anything. Devastators are still in training, and shooty. Assault marines are still in training. Tactical marines arn't specialised enough. Terminators are there as linebreakers, Sternguard are shooty, Vanguard you have an arguement for being better fighters than the others, however, the amount of special weapons like Lightning Claws and Thunder Hammers means they don't have to be as skilled. Honour Guard are chosen for their heroism and intuition, to better advise the Chapter Master and Guard him. Command Squads are a bodyguard for a Captain.
Calgar is the victim of Fanboyism, Dante is not. Calgar is the poster-child of the poster boys, he must be badass to sell models and more Ultramarines.
2) In addition to those 2, the Armour of Shrieking Souls says "many former selves" in the fluff description of the armour. Hence, more than 2.
3) Yet Crowe has never died and Lucius has at least twice by your counts, more than that by mine. What does that tell you. Also, Crowe does so while continually resisting the influences of Chaos 24/7, resisting the temptation to activate the abilities of his sword, which in turn has a dull edge and no special features. He might as well be using a sparring blade.
4) GK Codex, pg 15. Year 888.M41 A Black Day on Birmingham
5) You misunderstand me. Nero Vipus' life or death in 30K makes no impact on the 40K game. But if Lucius died at Istvaan (he was originally on the loyalist side but switched and allowed the Traitor Emperor's Children to get in, in a copy&paste of 300's ending), a large number of people would be saying "WTF?! He's in my Codex in 40K!" So he, along with other guys like Kharn and Abaddon, need plot armoured out to the max to ensure they survive until 40K. Kharn is particular gets a lot of this. He was speared by a Land Raider on Istvaan III, found atop a pile of corpses on Terra "Oh he refused to die lol."
6) You can't claim someone is the best when they have been beaten numerous times (or at least twice). Crowe has not been beaten and fought Skulltaker (a better fighter than Lucius by virtue of his nature as the leading Herald of Khorne). He also fights with a larger number of distractions, namely the temptation of Chaos and the Warp and his sword, a weaker weapon than Lucius. In addition, he has no help from Chaos, like Lucius does, who revels in pain and stimulation, whereas it only hinders Crowe.

I would just like to point out that Crowe's sword a "weaker weapon than Lucius'" and has a "dull edge and no special features" has a FETHING DAEMON inside of it. So yeah "he may as well be using a sparring blade".

Also: even though honour guard are "only chosen for their heroism and the advice they can provide they're chapter master" (paraphrasing there), do you really think a chapter master would choose a swordsman that can't best an Ork Nob as his personal body guard?

 Brother Payne wrote:
I would just like to point out that Crowe's sword a "weaker weapon than Lucius'" and has a "dull edge and no special features" has a FETHING DAEMON inside of it. So yeah "he may as well be using a sparring blade".

Also: even though honour guard are "only chosen for their heroism and the advice they can provide they're chapter master" (paraphrasing there), do you really think a chapter master would choose a swordsman that can't best an Ork Nob as his personal body guard?

1. Crowe, as I have pointed out at least once, utterly refuses the abilities the sword presents to him. The entire point of his character is to be the only person who can resist it, being so pure. The Daemon is supressed and gives absolutely no power to Crowe's fighting (which is represented in the game as being a normal close combat weapon, no strength or AP bonuses).

Also, and I forget to mention previously, citing Lucius as having 10, 000 years experience as a reason for surperiority is not valid. You forget that much time is spent in the warp, where time moves differently. Therefore, for all we know, to him it might only 200 years.
In saying that, it is also possible it seems like 10, 000 years, or even longer, or maybe only a day or two. I'm not entirely dismissing the argument, just saying, its not entirely correct to say 10K years is definite and unmoving.

2. Honour Guard are primarily advisors. They can be heroes and warriors but they are primarily there to make sure the Chapter Master has all the information he needs. USUALLY, yes, they are incredible warriors in their own right. Its not a requirement though.

The question of Lucius has been raised many times.

-What if he is killed by an artillery shell, and the people who fired it have no idea who they just killed?
-What if he is killed by a Necron/Tyranid?
-What if he dies in an accident (transport explosion, for example)
-What if whoever kills him dies right afterwards, before turning into Lucius?

It can be fun to speculate, but I don't think there are any clear answers, it's a diffuse piece of fluff made to be a cool background story, nothing more.

Lucius vs a normal Grey Knight, Lucius wins. Those two variables are easy to decipher.

Solution! Imprison Lucy forever

Solution: 'Feed' Lucious to a Tomb Sentinel/Stalker.

I think the biggest problem with trying to get Lucius killed by a rogue shell, emotionless automation, etc. is that it just wont happen. Lucius does (or at least used to have) a certain degree of plot armor, otherwise his story ends and 40K looses another character.

So in short, Slannesh never allows him to be in positions where such an incident would happen. For some reason the shelling always happen over there. For some reason or another the tomb stalker is in the other part of the maze. Extermanatis bomb... damn you just missed him, he was there yesterday.

On the flip side, he does find himself often facing off against opponents worthy of his skill and lore. Somehow that lieutenant always comes around the bend. The Ork Nob comes crashing through the trees against his unit even when they are in the backfield.

I love his character because I see it as the perfect metaphore for chaos. You cant get rid of it, and even in victory it still will cost you your soul.

I don't even consider it plot-armor, honestly. Lucius is under the personal guardianship of Slaanesh. Slaanesh is a Chaos God of immense power. That's pretty much end of story. Lucius could be hurled into the Sun by an emotionless robot, and Slaanesh can still bring him back to life on a whim. His ship could spontaneously explode in the middle of space due to a cascade system failure, and she could still bring him back with a whim.

There are no loop-holes that would result in him staying dead.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't even consider it plot-armor, honestly. Lucius is under the personal guardianship of Slaanesh. Slaanesh is a Chaos God of immense power. That's pretty much end of story. Lucius could be hurled into the Sun by an emotionless robot, and Slaanesh can still bring him back to life on a whim. His ship could spontaneously explode in the middle of space due to a cascade system failure, and she could still bring him back with a whim.

There are no loop-holes that would result in him staying dead.

If someone managed to destroy his soul he would stay dead, that probably won't happen though. Best bet is to just put him in stasis somewhere.

Best bet is to run for your life. The chapter master of the grey knights could probably get him good.... but then the chapter master would have to destroy his own soul so as to not explode into Lucius.

Or if the master got lucky, he could destroy lucius' soul. I think its possible, but like buddy said "You jsut missed him! He was here a second ago!"

Chapter Master: "DAMMIT LUCIUS! I WILL FIND YOU!"

zeromaeus wrote:
Solution: 'Feed' Lucious to a Tomb Sentinel/Stalker.

You really want a giant, living metal Lucius? :p

Although there is the question of whether or not the Exile Ray actually kills the target. Lucius stranded forever in a hyperspace rubbish bin is a rather amusing thought.

Or what if you made Slaanesh really friggin' pissed of with him? He'd be straight up dead. Go directly to hell, do not pass go to not collect $200.

 Brother Payne wrote:
Or what if you made Slaanesh really friggin' pissed of with him? He'd be straight up dead. Go directly to hell, do not pass go to not collect $200.

I can't think of anything that would piss off a Chaos God considering that M'kar is still around. Only thing that might work is maybe if one day Lucius sits down and rethinks his life, deciding from that point on he'll live a conservative, Amish life style and never take pleasure in something or harm any other being.

I've always assumed there's a few dozen Lucius running around. For instance the tank or artillery crew scenario. Who gets the curse? I would assume slaanesh wouldn't be too picky about who aimed and who pulled the trigger. Whoever has the feels opens a door for the curse. Thus for every Lucius that dies to a truly pure GK or mindless servitor or accidentally kill's himself doing something gross and extreme in search of a new thrill, there's a scenario where two or more Lucius's are spawned from one lucky git who passed his curse on to several new bodies.

 Chaos Rising wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Lucius has been sort of retconned, prior to taking over a body that feels pride he was killed, dead as a door nail and apothecary fabius declared him as such, and then he came to life again and no one knows why, fluff wise only 1 other faction can do this to date and that the perpetuals, ref: Angel exterminatus.

Fabius revivea him does he not. It jas heen a while since I read that and I have to say I was rooing for the raven guard the whole time but it ends with him waking up in Fabius' lab with the strange creatures breaking out or something? Again been a long time since I last read it.

nope, fabius hasn't a clue how he came back to life and pretty much says as much.

There is no reason Lucius cannot be one of the most skilled swordsmen who has ever lived and still died lots of times in the past 10,000 years, for two reasons.

1) 10,000 years is a long time. Long enough for less skilled opponents to get lucky every now and again, or to find those exceedingly rare individuals even more skilled than him.

2) A lascannon to the face or a demolisher shell doesn't care how skilled you are with a blade.

Also, it's always fun to find ways Lucius could be killed without his armour gaining a new face; your best bets are people who themselves die immediately afterwards, or opponents without a soul or consciousness, like Ripper swarms, or a Necron warrior. Hell, any Tyranid in a swarm will do, as I very much doubt Slaanesh is powerful enough to subdue the Hive Mind into Lucius' armour.

Bran Dawri wrote:
There is no reason Lucius cannot be one of the most skilled swordsmen who has ever lived and still died lots of times in the past 10,000 years, for two reasons.

1) 10,000 years is a long time. Long enough for less skilled opponents to get lucky every now and again, or to find those exceedingly rare individuals even more skilled than him.

2) A lascannon to the face or a demolisher shell doesn't care how skilled you are with a blade.

Also, it's always fun to find ways Lucius could be killed without his armour gaining a new face; your best bets are people who themselves die immediately afterwards, or opponents without a soul or consciousness, like Ripper swarms, or a Necron warrior. Hell, any Tyranid in a swarm will do, as I very much doubt Slaanesh is powerful enough to subdue the Hive Mind into Lucius' armour.

A swordsman of his supposed skill level doesn't let luck come into things. Luck only plays a part when you don't control the variables. A perfect swordsman, what Lucius strives to be, controls the variables.

Does that mean he can control every aspect of whats around him? Luck always plays a part all you can do is make it a small one.

pm713 wrote:
Does that mean he can control every aspect of whats around him? Luck always plays a part all you can do is make it a small one.

Ideally. But as you say there always unknowables. Being a perfect swordsman means that whatever small part of luck may be involved would have zero effect on the outcome.

 Brother Payne wrote:
Or what if you made Slaanesh really friggin' pissed of with him? He'd be straight up dead. Go directly to hell, do not pass go to not collect $200.

But if Slaanesh killed him, would that not mean Slaanesh would turn into Lucius?

 BlaxicanX wrote:

There are no loop-holes that would result in him staying dead.

Lukas vs. Lucius. No matter who wins, Lucius loses.

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Does that mean he can control every aspect of whats around him? Luck always plays a part all you can do is make it a small one.

Ideally. But as you say there always unknowables. Being a perfect swordsman means that whatever small part of luck may be involved would have zero effect on the outcome.

Unless it's something ridiculous like an avalanche that buries every part of him except his head meaning he can't move and someone cuts off his head....but that's so rare it probably won't happen.

pm713 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Does that mean he can control every aspect of whats around him? Luck always plays a part all you can do is make it a small one.

Ideally. But as you say there always unknowables. Being a perfect swordsman means that whatever small part of luck may be involved would have zero effect on the outcome.

Unless it's something ridiculous like an avalanche that buries every part of him except his head meaning he can't move and someone cuts off his head....but that's so rare it probably won't happen.

Then you simply choose a battleground where such a thing won't happen. Go fight someone else on a different planet.

Striving to be a perfect swordsman does not equal being one.

Only thing is, Lucius isn't striving to be the perfect swordsman.

Lucius is striving to experience the best sword fights.

Minor but important difference.

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Does that mean he can control every aspect of whats around him? Luck always plays a part all you can do is make it a small one.

Ideally. But as you say there always unknowables. Being a perfect swordsman means that whatever small part of luck may be involved would have zero effect on the outcome.

Unless it's something ridiculous like an avalanche that buries every part of him except his head meaning he can't move and someone cuts off his head....but that's so rare it probably won't happen.

Then you simply choose a battleground where such a thing won't happen. Go fight someone else on a different planet.

Where something else can happen.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Only thing is, Lucius isn't striving to be the perfect swordsman.

Lucius is striving to experience the best sword fights.

Minor but important difference.

It should also be noted that all the greatest swordsmen that are arguably better than Lucius end up dead. Either because he bested them or they bested him.

 Ashiraya wrote:
They must feel pride over the kill first for it to work.

I am not sure if a GK would fall for that.

Oldschool Grey Knights probably wouldn't, the current "let's hang the daemon's head over the fireplace" guys would probably be in trouble.

KingDeath wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
They must feel pride over the kill first for it to work.

I am not sure if a GK would fall for that.

Oldschool Grey Knights probably wouldn't, the current "let's hang the daemon's head over the fireplace" guys would probably be in trouble.

Why? The new GK seem a lot more diverse, more advanced and more powerful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Does that mean he can control every aspect of whats around him? Luck always plays a part all you can do is make it a small one.

Ideally. But as you say there always unknowables. Being a perfect swordsman means that whatever small part of luck may be involved would have zero effect on the outcome.

Unless it's something ridiculous like an avalanche that buries every part of him except his head meaning he can't move and someone cuts off his head....but that's so rare it probably won't happen.

Then you simply choose a battleground where such a thing won't happen. Go fight someone else on a different planet.

Where something else can happen.

You choose a battleground where those things will not happen. Seismically inactive, no volcanos, terrain that suits you (trees and other narrow passages for fighting huge fethers, something to climb should the enemy prove unable, somewhere to escape if need be. Lucius cares nought for that, because even pain is pleasure and death at another's hand is rebirth. He fights where the enemy is, not bring the enemy to you. Crowe even knew to do that, bringing Skulltaker to consecrated ground where Crowe had the upper hand.

So you don't actually do anything because you get scared of a tiny chance of death. Great fighter there.

 Envihon wrote:
A thought popped in my head as I was reading over Lucious' profile, what would happen if a Grey Knight killed him instead of just a run of the mill space marine? Is Lucious' power based off more of a curse like the one that affects Draigo therefore the Grey Knight would begin his transformation into the twisted form of Lucious or is a corruption that a Grey Knight could use its power to resist? I mean it is the will of Slaanesh so a Grey Knight would still fall to it but would that count as a Grey Knight falling to Chaos or just being killed by Lucious?

As much as I love the Grey Knights this is still something that is over their heads. Honestly, I don't think I would count it as a Grey Knight falling to Chaos but I still think the ever rebirth of Lucious would go on.

Lucius can only ever be reborn in the soul of one who experienced a moment of pride or joy over defeating him. Thus, by mattard logic a GK or UM can never be turned into Lucius Mk.666.

I'd say that he can, as fluff stories do show SM, even the GK as being prideful in nature, and it only lakes a miniscule imperfection to become predated upon by the full will of a chaos god.

There are two factors that seem to have been left out: 1: Lash of Despair. A whip with sentience is a dangerous thing. B: Duelists Pride: Lucius has lived(?) for 10,000+ years. On top of that, he curbs his martial prowess by matching levels with the competitor he is fighting. And also that death is the ultimate aphrodisiac. +__+

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
There are two factors that seem to have been left out: 1: Lash of Despair. A whip with sentience is a dangerous thing. B: Duelists Pride: Lucius has lived(?) for 10,000+ years. On top of that, he curbs his martial prowess by matching levels with the competitor he is fighting. And also that death is the ultimate aphrodisiac. +__+

His fluff does seem to imply that death is his Ecstasy.

 Selym wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
There are two factors that seem to have been left out: 1: Lash of Despair. A whip with sentience is a dangerous thing. B: Duelists Pride: Lucius has lived(?) for 10,000+ years. On top of that, he curbs his martial prowess by matching levels with the competitor he is fighting. And also that death is the ultimate aphrodisiac. +__+

His fluff does seem to imply that death is his Ecstasy.

False sense of security, yo. Makes people believe they can beat him, and probably lets a fair number of his challengers do just that, only to come crawling out of their own bodies, laughing with ecstasy. Birth and Death. Are there any greater of sensations?

I submit there are not.

Lady Malys can kill him and enjoy every moment

 Mr Morden wrote:
Lady Malys can kill him and enjoy every moment

Thats' because Lady Malys is 40k's answer to David Xanatos. :p

 Ashiraya wrote:
They must feel pride over the kill first for it to work.

I am not sure if a GK would fall for that.

Even the faintest glimmer of pride. Oh yes. A Grey Knight would fall for that. They probably HAVE fallen for that. The issue here is their power, not their mental fortitude. They are no less inclined to pride than any other Space Marine. Their power can't protect them against Lucious considering it's not really Lucious' power so much as it's the power of Slaanesh itself.

 Quarterdime wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
They must feel pride over the kill first for it to work.

I am not sure if a GK would fall for that.

Even the faintest glimmer of pride. Oh yes. A Grey Knight would fall for that. They probably HAVE fallen for that. The issue here is their power, not their mental fortitude. They are no less inclined to pride than any other Space Marine. Their power can't protect them against Lucious considering it's not really Lucious' power so much as it's the power of Slaanesh itself.

This I have to agree with no matter how much I love the GK and their shining record, they are still partly human and despite all the Mary Sues that people make the GK to be, they aren't and a GK would feel pride about the victory.

So I answered this question in a game I played this weekend. It was a force of CSM with Lucius leading an army of Emperor's Children vs. my GK and Imperial Fists. My Centurions decided to screw and not let my GK even get into CC with him since they took him out with Lascannons and Missiles.

 Envihon wrote:
So I answered this question in a game I played this weekend. It was a force of CSM with Lucius leading an army of Emperor's Children vs. my GK and Imperial Fists. My Centurions decided to screw and not let my GK even get into CC with him since they took him out with Lascannons and Missiles.

You're Lascannon or Missile Launcher operator (whoever made the finishing shot) better not have felt happy about it.

The radical Inquisitor/rival Chaos Lord in me says to blow off a few of Luci's limbs from a distance, then take him alive and turn him over to the Dark Eldar. They'd find him to be a very amusing toy. Of course, he'd probably escape eventually, but it would keep him occupied for at least a little while and give him some of what he deserves. Face it, Lucius has some majorly thick plot armor. He's not going anywhere anytime soon.

I don't really know if the any of the Centurions knew that they killed Lucius, they fired indiscriminately at the squad he was in.

 fallinq wrote:

 Envihon wrote:
So I answered this question in a game I played this weekend. It was a force of CSM with Lucius leading an army of Emperor's Children vs. my GK and Imperial Fists. My Centurions decided to screw and not let my GK even get into CC with him since they took him out with Lascannons and Missiles.

You're Lascannon or Missile Launcher operator (whoever made the finishing shot) better not have felt happy about it.

The radical Inquisitor/rival Chaos Lord in me says to blow off a few of Luci's limbs from a distance, then take him alive and turn him over to the Dark Eldar. They'd find him to be a very amusing toy. Of course, he'd probably escape eventually, but it would keep him occupied for at least a little while and give him some of what he deserves. Face it, Lucius has some majorly thick plot armor. He's not going anywhere anytime soon.

The Dark Eldar wouldn't go near him. He's Slaanesh. And besides, anything they could do to him, he'd enjoy.

 fallinq wrote:

The radical Inquisitor/rival Chaos Lord in me says to blow off a few of Luci's limbs from a distance, then take him alive and turn him over to the Dark Eldar. They'd find him to be a very amusing toy. Of course, he'd probably escape eventually, but it would keep him occupied for at least a little while and give him some of what he deserves. Face it, Lucius has some majorly thick plot armor. He's not going anywhere anytime soon.

That'd be a bad idea. Lucius learned during the heresy to associate pain with victory, you'd essentially be giving him another high. And also giving him the chance to learn a few new tricks for when he finds you again.

Best chance is the good old standby, a tesseract labyrinth.

 Selym wrote:

 fallinq wrote:

The radical Inquisitor/rival Chaos Lord in me says to blow off a few of Luci's limbs from a distance, then take him alive and turn him over to the Dark Eldar. They'd find him to be a very amusing toy. Of course, he'd probably escape eventually, but it would keep him occupied for at least a little while and give him some of what he deserves. Face it, Lucius has some majorly thick plot armor. He's not going anywhere anytime soon.

That'd be a bad idea. Lucius learned during the heresy to associate pain with victory, you'd essentially be giving him another high. And also giving him the chance to learn a few new tricks for when he finds you again.

Best chance is the good old standby, a tesseract labyrinth.

Arn't Tesserect Labyrinths for energy beings like Daemons and C'tan?

Someone told me that somewhere in the "Nemesis" book it's mentioned that Culexus Assassins do not feel "real" emotions and the emotions they do show are just them mimicking what they see others do.

The lexicanum is vague about it, but if it is true, keep sending Culexus Assassins after Lucius until he's dead.

What is Lucius is killed by a kamikaze attack though? An Eversor assassin that blows himself up and kills Lucius for example?

 Deadshot wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 fallinq wrote:

The radical Inquisitor/rival Chaos Lord in me says to blow off a few of Luci's limbs from a distance, then take him alive and turn him over to the Dark Eldar. They'd find him to be a very amusing toy. Of course, he'd probably escape eventually, but it would keep him occupied for at least a little while and give him some of what he deserves. Face it, Lucius has some majorly thick plot armor. He's not going anywhere anytime soon.

That'd be a bad idea. Lucius learned during the heresy to associate pain with victory, you'd essentially be giving him another high. And also giving him the chance to learn a few new tricks for when he finds you again.

Best chance is the good old standby, a tesseract labyrinth.

Arn't Tesserect Labyrinths for energy beings like Daemons and C'tan?

Given the number of times Lucius has died, he doesn't count as real anymore.

That, and IIRC, an Inquisitor once got stuck in one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AWesker1976 wrote:
Someone told me that somewhere in the "Nemesis" book it's mentioned that Culexus Assassins do not feel "real" emotions and the emotions they do show are just them mimicking what they see others do.

The lexicanum is vague about it, but if it is true, keep sending Culexus Assassins after Lucius until he's dead.

What is Lucius is killed by a kamikaze attack though? An Eversor assassin that blows himself up and kills Lucius for example?

Slaaneshi loophole. Could be that he takes over the guy that ordered the attack.

Step 1: acquire unconscious lucius
step 2: place unconscious lucius into cannon
step 3: fire lucius onto nearby ork or tyranid nom nom planet.

walkertreat wrote:
Step 1: acquire unconscious lucius
step 2: place unconscious lucius into cannon
step 3: fire lucius onto nearby ork or tyranid nom nom planet.

I probably laughed a little to hard at that but tyranid nom nom planet got to me.

Solution= Lucius annoys Abaddon. Takes Talon of Horus to the face. Abaddon laughs his head off. Curse doesn't take effect because Abaddon is the chosen of the Ruinous Powers, and the other 3 would kill Slaanesh to even attempt to change him.

 Deadshot wrote:
Solution= Lucius annoys Abaddon. Takes Talon of Horus to the face. Abaddon laughs his head off. Curse doesn't take effect because Abaddon is the chosen of the Ruinous Powers, and the other 3 would kill Slaanesh to even attempt to change him.

I don't think Abaddon is much better. Just like the Emperor's Children, I don't like him even before he fell to Chaos.

 Envihon wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Solution= Lucius annoys Abaddon. Takes Talon of Horus to the face. Abaddon laughs his head off. Curse doesn't take effect because Abaddon is the chosen of the Ruinous Powers, and the other 3 would kill Slaanesh to even attempt to change him.

I don't think Abaddon is much better. Just like the Emperor's Children, I don't like him even before he fell to Chaos.

He is a bit of a gakker.

Regardless of whether you like him or not, Abaddon can kill Lucius and get away scot free- provided he retains the favour of the Gods.

What about Tyranid VS Lucius?

 Ashiraya wrote:
What about Tyranid VS Lucius?

Possible. But its also possible that he would dance his way through any Tyranid save the Swarmlord or Deathleaper. The former wouldn't be deployed just to kill him and Deathleaper is mostly psycological warfare which won't work on Lucius.

What if Slaanesh got sick of caring about little lucius the eternal?

He would loose his ability to regenerate because it is by that blessing that he is able to do it and there goes Lucius' plot armor but I doubt that will ever happen.