Lucious vs. A Grey Knight, what would be the outcome?

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**Deadshot**

pm713 wrote:
Does that mean he can control every aspect of whats around him? Luck always plays a part all you can do is make it a small one.

Ideally. But as you say there always unknowables. Being a perfect swordsman means that whatever small part of luck may be involved would have zero effect on the outcome.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Brother Payne wrote:
Or what if you made Slaanesh really friggin' pissed of with him? He'd be straight up dead. Go directly to hell, do not pass go to not collect $200.

But if Slaanesh killed him, would that not mean Slaanesh would turn into Lucius?

BlaxicanX wrote:

There are no loop-holes that would result in him staying dead.

Lukas vs. Lucius. No matter who wins, Lucius loses.

**pm713**

Deadshot wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Does that mean he can control every aspect of whats around him? Luck always plays a part all you can do is make it a small one.

Ideally. But as you say there always unknowables. Being a perfect swordsman means that whatever small part of luck may be involved would have zero effect on the outcome.

Unless it's something ridiculous like an avalanche that buries every part of him except his head meaning he can't move and someone cuts off his head....but that's so rare it probably won't happen.

**Deadshot**

pm713 wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Does that mean he can control every aspect of whats around him? Luck always plays a part all you can do is make it a small one.

Ideally. But as you say there always unknowables. Being a perfect swordsman means that whatever small part of luck may be involved would have zero effect on the outcome.

Unless it's something ridiculous like an avalanche that buries every part of him except his head meaning he can't move and someone cuts off his head....but that's so rare it probably won't happen.

Then you simply choose a battleground where such a thing won't happen. Go fight someone else on a different planet.

**Bran Dawri**

Striving to be a perfect swordsman does not equal being one.

**Furyou Miko**

Only thing is, Lucius isn't striving to be the perfect swordsman.

Lucius is striving to experience the best sword fights.

Minor but important difference.

**pm713**

Deadshot wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Does that mean he can control every aspect of whats around him? Luck always plays a part all you can do is make it a small one.

Ideally. But as you say there always unknowables. Being a perfect swordsman means that whatever small part of luck may be involved would have zero effect on the outcome.

Unless it's something ridiculous like an avalanche that buries every part of him except his head meaning he can't move and someone cuts off his head....but that's so rare it probably won't happen.

Then you simply choose a battleground where such a thing won't happen. Go fight someone else on a different planet.

Where something else can happen.

**Wyzilla**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Only thing is, Lucius isn't striving to be the perfect swordsman.

Lucius is striving to experience the best sword fights.

Minor but important difference.

It should also be noted that all the greatest swordsmen that are arguably better than Lucius end up dead. Either because he bested them or they bested him.

**KingDeath**

Ashiraya wrote:
They must feel pride over the kill first for it to work.

I am not sure if a GK would fall for that.

Oldschool Grey Knights probably wouldn't, the current "let's hang the daemon's head over the fireplace" guys would probably be in trouble.

**Deadshot**

KingDeath wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
They must feel pride over the kill first for it to work.

I am not sure if a GK would fall for that.

Oldschool Grey Knights probably wouldn't, the current "let's hang the daemon's head over the fireplace" guys would probably be in trouble.

Why? The new GK seem a lot more diverse, more advanced and more powerful.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Does that mean he can control every aspect of whats around him? Luck always plays a part all you can do is make it a small one.

Ideally. But as you say there always unknowables. Being a perfect swordsman means that whatever small part of luck may be involved would have zero effect on the outcome.

Unless it's something ridiculous like an avalanche that buries every part of him except his head meaning he can't move and someone cuts off his head....but that's so rare it probably won't happen.

Then you simply choose a battleground where such a thing won't happen. Go fight someone else on a different planet.

Where something else can happen.

You choose a battleground where those things will not happen. Seismically inactive, no volcanos, terrain that suits you (trees and other narrow passages for fighting huge fethers, something to climb should the enemy prove unable, somewhere to escape if need be. Lucius cares nought for that, because even pain is pleasure and death at another's hand is rebirth. He fights where the enemy is, not bring the enemy to you. Crowe even knew to do that, bringing Skulltaker to consecrated ground where Crowe had the upper hand.

**pm713**

So you don't actually do anything because you get scared of a tiny chance of death. Great fighter there.

**Selym**

Envihon wrote:
A thought popped in my head as I was reading over Lucious' profile, what would happen if a Grey Knight killed him instead of just a run of the mill space marine? Is Lucious' power based off more of a curse like the one that affects Draigo therefore the Grey Knight would begin his transformation into the twisted form of Lucious or is a corruption that a Grey Knight could use its power to resist? I mean it is the will of Slaanesh so a Grey Knight would still fall to it but would that count as a Grey Knight falling to Chaos or just being killed by Lucious?

As much as I love the Grey Knights this is still something that is over their heads. Honestly, I don't think I would count it as a Grey Knight falling to Chaos but I still think the ever rebirth of Lucious would go on.

Lucius can only ever be reborn in the soul of one who experienced a moment of pride or joy over defeating him. Thus, by mattard logic a GK or UM can never be turned into Lucius Mk.666.

I'd say that he can, as fluff stories do show SM, even the GK as being prideful in nature, and it only lakes a miniscule imperfection to become predated upon by the full will of a chaos god.

**TheRedWingArmada**

There are two factors that seem to have been left out: 1: Lash of Despair. A whip with sentience is a dangerous thing. B: Duelists Pride: Lucius has lived(?) for 10,000+ years. On top of that, he curbs his martial prowess by matching levels with the competitor he is fighting. And also that death is the ultimate aphrodisiac. +__+

**Selym**

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
There are two factors that seem to have been left out: 1: Lash of Despair. A whip with sentience is a dangerous thing. B: Duelists Pride: Lucius has lived(?) for 10,000+ years. On top of that, he curbs his martial prowess by matching levels with the competitor he is fighting. And also that death is the ultimate aphrodisiac. +__+

His fluff does seem to imply that death is his Ecstasy.

**TheRedWingArmada**

Selym wrote:
TheRedWingArmada wrote:
There are two factors that seem to have been left out: 1: Lash of Despair. A whip with sentience is a dangerous thing. B: Duelists Pride: Lucius has lived(?) for 10,000+ years. On top of that, he curbs his martial prowess by matching levels with the competitor he is fighting. And also that death is the ultimate aphrodisiac. +__+

His fluff does seem to imply that death is his Ecstasy.

False sense of security, yo. Makes people believe they can beat him, and probably lets a fair number of his challengers do just that, only to come crawling out of their own bodies, laughing with ecstasy. Birth and Death. Are there any greater of sensations?

I submit there are not.

**Mr Morden**

Lady Malys can kill him and enjoy every moment

**Furyou Miko**

Mr Morden wrote:
Lady Malys can kill him and enjoy every moment

Thats' because Lady Malys is 40k's answer to David Xanatos. :p

**Quarterdime**

Ashiraya wrote:
They must feel pride over the kill first for it to work.

I am not sure if a GK would fall for that.

Even the faintest glimmer of pride. Oh yes. A Grey Knight would fall for that. They probably HAVE fallen for that. The issue here is their power, not their mental fortitude. They are no less inclined to pride than any other Space Marine. Their power can't protect them against Lucious considering it's not really Lucious' power so much as it's the power of Slaanesh itself.

**Envihon**

Quarterdime wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
They must feel pride over the kill first for it to work.

I am not sure if a GK would fall for that.

Even the faintest glimmer of pride. Oh yes. A Grey Knight would fall for that. They probably HAVE fallen for that. The issue here is their power, not their mental fortitude. They are no less inclined to pride than any other Space Marine. Their power can't protect them against Lucious considering it's not really Lucious' power so much as it's the power of Slaanesh itself.

This I have to agree with no matter how much I love the GK and their shining record, they are still partly human and despite all the Mary Sues that people make the GK to be, they aren't and a GK would feel pride about the victory.

**Envihon**

So I answered this question in a game I played this weekend. It was a force of CSM with Lucius leading an army of Emperor's Children vs. my GK and Imperial Fists. My Centurions decided to screw and not let my GK even get into CC with him since they took him out with Lascannons and Missiles.

**fallinq**

Envihon wrote:
So I answered this question in a game I played this weekend. It was a force of CSM with Lucius leading an army of Emperor's Children vs. my GK and Imperial Fists. My Centurions decided to screw and not let my GK even get into CC with him since they took him out with Lascannons and Missiles.

You're Lascannon or Missile Launcher operator (whoever made the finishing shot) better not have felt happy about it.

The radical Inquisitor/rival Chaos Lord in me says to blow off a few of Luci's limbs from a distance, then take him alive and turn him over to the Dark Eldar. They'd find him to be a very amusing toy. Of course, he'd probably escape eventually, but it would keep him occupied for at least a little while and give him some of what he deserves. Face it, Lucius has some majorly thick plot armor. He's not going anywhere anytime soon.

**Envihon**

I don't really know if the any of the Centurions knew that they killed Lucius, they fired indiscriminately at the squad he was in.

**Deadshot**

fallinq wrote:
Envihon wrote:
So I answered this question in a game I played this weekend. It was a force of CSM with Lucius leading an army of Emperor's Children vs. my GK and Imperial Fists. My Centurions decided to screw and not let my GK even get into CC with him since they took him out with Lascannons and Missiles.

You're Lascannon or Missile Launcher operator (whoever made the finishing shot) better not have felt happy about it.

The radical Inquisitor/rival Chaos Lord in me says to blow off a few of Luci's limbs from a distance, then take him alive and turn him over to the Dark Eldar. They'd find him to be a very amusing toy. Of course, he'd probably escape eventually, but it would keep him occupied for at least a little while and give him some of what he deserves. Face it, Lucius has some majorly thick plot armor. He's not going anywhere anytime soon.

The Dark Eldar wouldn't go near him. He's Slaanesh. And besides, anything they could do to him, he'd enjoy.

**Selym**

fallinq wrote:

The radical Inquisitor/rival Chaos Lord in me says to blow off a few of Luci's limbs from a distance, then take him alive and turn him over to the Dark Eldar. They'd find him to be a very amusing toy. Of course, he'd probably escape eventually, but it would keep him occupied for at least a little while and give him some of what he deserves. Face it, Lucius has some majorly thick plot armor. He's not going anywhere anytime soon.

That'd be a bad idea. Lucius learned during the heresy to associate pain with victory, you'd essentially be giving him another high. And also giving him the chance to learn a few new tricks for when he finds you again.

Best chance is the good old standby, a tesseract labyrinth.

**Deadshot**

Selym wrote:
fallinq wrote:

The radical Inquisitor/rival Chaos Lord in me says to blow off a few of Luci's limbs from a distance, then take him alive and turn him over to the Dark Eldar. They'd find him to be a very amusing toy. Of course, he'd probably escape eventually, but it would keep him occupied for at least a little while and give him some of what he deserves. Face it, Lucius has some majorly thick plot armor. He's not going anywhere anytime soon.

That'd be a bad idea. Lucius learned during the heresy to associate pain with victory, you'd essentially be giving him another high. And also giving him the chance to learn a few new tricks for when he finds you again.

Best chance is the good old standby, a tesseract labyrinth.

Arn't Tesserect Labyrinths for energy beings like Daemons and C'tan?

**AWesker1976**

Someone told me that somewhere in the "Nemesis" book it's mentioned that Culexus Assassins do not feel "real" emotions and the emotions they do show are just them mimicking what they see others do.

The lexicanum is vague about it, but if it is true, keep sending Culexus Assassins after Lucius until he's dead.

What is Lucius is killed by a kamikaze attack though? An Eversor assassin that blows himself up and kills Lucius for example?

**Selym**

Deadshot wrote:
Selym wrote:
fallinq wrote:

The radical Inquisitor/rival Chaos Lord in me says to blow off a few of Luci's limbs from a distance, then take him alive and turn him over to the Dark Eldar. They'd find him to be a very amusing toy. Of course, he'd probably escape eventually, but it would keep him occupied for at least a little while and give him some of what he deserves. Face it, Lucius has some majorly thick plot armor. He's not going anywhere anytime soon.

That'd be a bad idea. Lucius learned during the heresy to associate pain with victory, you'd essentially be giving him another high. And also giving him the chance to learn a few new tricks for when he finds you again.

Best chance is the good old standby, a tesseract labyrinth.

Arn't Tesserect Labyrinths for energy beings like Daemons and C'tan?

Given the number of times Lucius has died, he doesn't count as real anymore.

That, and IIRC, an Inquisitor once got stuck in one.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AWesker1976 wrote:
Someone told me that somewhere in the "Nemesis" book it's mentioned that Culexus Assassins do not feel "real" emotions and the emotions they do show are just them mimicking what they see others do.

The lexicanum is vague about it, but if it is true, keep sending Culexus Assassins after Lucius until he's dead.

What is Lucius is killed by a kamikaze attack though? An Eversor assassin that blows himself up and kills Lucius for example?

Slaaneshi loophole. Could be that he takes over the guy that ordered the attack.

**walkertreat**

Step 1: acquire unconscious lucius
step 2: place unconscious lucius into cannon
step 3: fire lucius onto nearby ork or tyranid nom nom planet.

**Envihon**

walkertreat wrote:
Step 1: acquire unconscious lucius
step 2: place unconscious lucius into cannon
step 3: fire lucius onto nearby ork or tyranid nom nom planet.

I probably laughed a little to hard at that but tyranid nom nom planet got to me.

**Deadshot**

Solution= Lucius annoys Abaddon. Takes Talon of Horus to the face. Abaddon laughs his head off. Curse doesn't take effect because Abaddon is the chosen of the Ruinous Powers, and the other 3 would kill Slaanesh to even attempt to change him.