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What if a servitor with a heavy bolter gunned him down?

 Imperator_Class wrote:
What if a servitor with a heavy bolter gunned him down?

Then heavy bolter twists and mutates and you end up with Lucius as a Mutilator.

Lucius wins hands down.

He is chaos now. A soul willing to bend the will of others, but a soul that knows that the true outcome of all things is chaos.

The Grey Knight would be a perfect challenge for the student of perfection.

It would definitely be a good fight, but chaos is the only true answer. If you decide to inflict harm upon others, you might as well get to the core of the issue - chaos.

Lucius would beat the grey knight.

 Formosa wrote:
Lucius has been sort of retconned, prior to taking over a body that feels pride he was killed, dead as a door nail and apothecary fabius declared him as such, and then he came to life again and no one knows why, fluff wise only 1 other faction can do this to date and that the perpetuals, ref: Angel exterminatus.

Fabius revivea him does he not. It jas heen a while since I read that and I have to say I was rooing for the raven guard the whole time but it ends with him waking up in Fabius' lab with the strange creatures breaking out or something? Again been a long time since I last read it.

 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:
Lucius wins hands down.

He is chaos now. A soul willing to bend the will of others, but a soul that knows that the true outcome of all things is chaos.

The Grey Knight would be a perfect challenge for the student of perfection.

It would definitely be a good fight, but chaos is the only true answer. If you decide to inflict harm upon others, you might as well get to the core of the issue - chaos.

Lucius would beat the grey knight.

That is why the Grey Knights are the bane against Chaos, the force the Imperium calls when no others can stand against the tide. The force that beat Mortarion. Also, with the ret-con in Angel Exterminatus , Lucius is defeated by a Raven Guard Shadow Captain Nykona Sharrowkin and resurrected by Fabius and with how much Grey Knights train at sword play, a Grey Knight would be more than a match for Lucius. The question was whether the power would over take a Grey Knight who is not conditioned to feel pride and has wards against Chaos.

I doubt that the Grey Knight would cave. The GK are made out to be completely single-minded and soulless. But, Lucius is one of the greatest swordsmen alive, so it would take a least a Grand Master to defeat him in the first place.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
I doubt that the Grey Knight would cave. The GK are made out to be completely single-minded and soulless. But, Lucius is one of the greatest swordsmen alive, so it would take a least a Grand Master to defeat him in the first place.

Rediculous claim. Lucius has been killed a large number of times. Its quite possible he can be defeated. Hell, Kharn and Abaddon and Draigo, as well as Brotherhood Champions, who like Lucius train exclusively with the sword all their life to become master swordsman, have the same WS as him in-game. Skulltaker has more I think (8?), as does Castellan Crowe, who beat Skulltaker (Khorne's first Herald and Bloodletter). I reckon Crowe could win. Not with ease but win. A Brotherhood Champion would be 50/50 IMO, if plot armour went out the window.

In-game WS is 100% irrelevant in the 40K background forum.

 Ashiraya wrote:
In-game WS is 100% irrelevant in the 40K background forum.

Rules come from fluff. If a model in game has higher WS than another its because its a better swordsman/fighter. This may not always be reflected in the fluff due to plot armour. Lucius especially, along with Abaddon, Kharn, Typhus, Ahriman, Fabius. I'm sure Ben Counter would have loved to write an epic battle between Garviel Loken and Abaddon with Loken eventually winning through sheer luck and plot armour...but Abaddon must live because 40k. Likewise, I'm sure if Lucius was just a random face like Nero Vipus (a Luna Wolf loyal to Loken, and promptly died with little impact on the events around him), he could have been killed off during the Siege.

Castellan Crowe is a superior swordsman.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
In-game WS is 100% irrelevant in the 40K background forum.

Rules come from fluff. If a model in game has higher WS than another its because its a better swordsman/fighter. This may not always be reflected in the fluff due to plot armour. Lucius especially, along with Abaddon, Kharn, Typhus, Ahriman, Fabius. I'm sure Ben Counter would have loved to write an epic battle between Garviel Loken and Abaddon with Loken eventually winning through sheer luck and plot armour...but Abaddon must live because 40k. Likewise, I'm sure if Lucius was just a random face like Nero Vipus (a Luna Wolf loyal to Loken, and promptly died with little impact on the events around him), he could have been killed off during the Siege.

Castellan Crowe is a superior swordsman.

Yes, do continue and explain how a basic Warboss is a more skilled fighter than a Space Marine Honor Guard. Or why a naked Imperial Guard Company Commander can take thrice as many Heavy Bolter shells as a naked Guardsman.

The stats should never be taken as proof of anything.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
I doubt that the Grey Knight would cave. The GK are made out to be completely single-minded and soulless. But, Lucius is one of the greatest swordsmen alive, so it would take a least a Grand Master to defeat him in the first place.

Rediculous claim. Lucius has been killed a large number of times. Its quite possible he can be defeated. Hell, Kharn and Abaddon and Draigo, as well as Brotherhood Champions, who like Lucius train exclusively with the sword all their life to become master swordsman, have the same WS as him in-game. Skulltaker has more I think (8?), as does Castellan Crowe, who beat Skulltaker (Khorne's first Herald and Bloodletter). I reckon Crowe could win. Not with ease but win. A Brotherhood Champion would be 50/50 IMO, if plot armour went out the window.

1) rules does not equal fluff. Unless you can explain to me how Ork Nobs are more skilled than a space marine, or how a Lascannon to the face will kill Dante but not Calgar.
2) Lucius only has 2 deaths on record. His death against Sharrowkyn, which most chalk up to plot armor, and his death to Cyrus, who had Artificer Armor and a power spear when Lucius only had a toga and a sparring blade.
3) you make a claim of Lucius' training being comparable to Crowe's. Lucius has been alive for 10,000 years of which almost everyday is a struggle for survival shile Crowe has been alive 2000> years and not all of which has been fighting, most has been sparring. Now I'm no Math expert, but it seems like 10,000 years of fighting>2,000 years of some fighting and mostly sparring.
4) I own both the GK and Daemon codex and have never seen a mention of Crowe and Skulltaker fighting.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
In-game WS is 100% irrelevant in the 40K background forum.

Rules come from fluff. If a model in game has higher WS than another its because its a better swordsman/fighter. This may not always be reflected in the fluff due to plot armour. Lucius especially, along with Abaddon, Kharn, Typhus, Ahriman, Fabius. I'm sure Ben Counter would have loved to write an epic battle between Garviel Loken and Abaddon with Loken eventually winning through sheer luck and plot armour...but Abaddon must live because 40k. Likewise, I'm sure if Lucius was just a random face like Nero Vipus (a Luna Wolf loyal to Loken, and promptly died with little impact on the events around him), he could have been killed off during the Siege.

Castellan Crowe is a superior swordsman.

5) I don't recall any fluff saying Nero Vipus was the pre-imminent swordsman of his legion, or even his company.
6) so my claim is somehow ridiculous but all of your "evidence" against it has been opinion-based.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
I doubt that the Grey Knight would cave. The GK are made out to be completely single-minded and soulless. But, Lucius is one of the greatest swordsmen alive, so it would take a least a Grand Master to defeat him in the first place.

Rediculous claim. Lucius has been killed a large number of times. Its quite possible he can be defeated. Hell, Kharn and Abaddon and Draigo, as well as Brotherhood Champions, who like Lucius train exclusively with the sword all their life to become master swordsman, have the same WS as him in-game. Skulltaker has more I think (8?), as does Castellan Crowe, who beat Skulltaker (Khorne's first Herald and Bloodletter). I reckon Crowe could win. Not with ease but win. A Brotherhood Champion would be 50/50 IMO, if plot armour went out the window.

1) rules does not equal fluff. Unless you can explain to me how Ork Nobs are more skilled than a space marine, or how a Lascannon to the face will kill Dante but not Calgar.
2) Lucius only has 2 deaths on record. His death against Sharrowkyn, which most chalk up to plot armor, and his death to Cyrus, who had Artificer Armor and a power spear when Lucius only had a toga and a sparring blade.
3) you make a claim of Lucius' training being comparable to Crowe's. Lucius has been alive for 10,000 years of which almost everyday is a struggle for survival shile Crowe has been alive 2000> years and not all of which has been fighting, most has been sparring. Now I'm no Math expert, but it seems like 10,000 years of fighting>2,000 years of some fighting and mostly sparring.
4) I own both the GK and Daemon codex and have never seen a mention of Crowe and Skulltaker fighting.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
In-game WS is 100% irrelevant in the 40K background forum.

Rules come from fluff. If a model in game has higher WS than another its because its a better swordsman/fighter. This may not always be reflected in the fluff due to plot armour. Lucius especially, along with Abaddon, Kharn, Typhus, Ahriman, Fabius. I'm sure Ben Counter would have loved to write an epic battle between Garviel Loken and Abaddon with Loken eventually winning through sheer luck and plot armour...but Abaddon must live because 40k. Likewise, I'm sure if Lucius was just a random face like Nero Vipus (a Luna Wolf loyal to Loken, and promptly died with little impact on the events around him), he could have been killed off during the Siege.

Castellan Crowe is a superior swordsman.

5) I don't recall any fluff saying Nero Vipus was the pre-imminent swordsman of his legion, or even his company.
6) so my claim is somehow ridiculous but all of your "evidence" against it has been opinion-based.

1) Rules do have a basis in fluff. If there is no fluff there is no justification for rules. Nobs are more skilled combatants in melee than a Marine, because Nobs live, breathe, eat, sleep and gak for warfare, and melee in particular. They relish it and love every second. They are naturals A Nob wouldn't last long enough to ecome a Nob if he wasn't a great fighter. Either an enemy or another Ork would have killed him long ago. Space Marines train for years, probably hate the necessity of their job (I'm sure they'd much rather have a peaceful galaxy with no threat or war), and rarely specialise in anything. Devastators are still in training, and shooty. Assault marines are still in training. Tactical marines arn't specialised enough. Terminators are there as linebreakers, Sternguard are shooty, Vanguard you have an arguement for being better fighters than the others, however, the amount of special weapons like Lightning Claws and Thunder Hammers means they don't have to be as skilled. Honour Guard are chosen for their heroism and intuition, to better advise the Chapter Master and Guard him. Command Squads are a bodyguard for a Captain.
Calgar is the victim of Fanboyism, Dante is not. Calgar is the poster-child of the poster boys, he must be badass to sell models and more Ultramarines.
2) In addition to those 2, the Armour of Shrieking Souls says "many former selves" in the fluff description of the armour. Hence, more than 2.
3) Yet Crowe has never died and Lucius has at least twice by your counts, more than that by mine. What does that tell you. Also, Crowe does so while continually resisting the influences of Chaos 24/7, resisting the temptation to activate the abilities of his sword, which in turn has a dull edge and no special features. He might as well be using a sparring blade.
4) GK Codex, pg 15. Year 888.M41 A Black Day on Birmingham
5) You misunderstand me. Nero Vipus' life or death in 30K makes no impact on the 40K game. But if Lucius died at Istvaan (he was originally on the loyalist side but switched and allowed the Traitor Emperor's Children to get in, in a copy&paste of 300's ending), a large number of people would be saying "WTF?! He's in my Codex in 40K!" So he, along with other guys like Kharn and Abaddon, need plot armoured out to the max to ensure they survive until 40K. Kharn is particular gets a lot of this. He was speared by a Land Raider on Istvaan III, found atop a pile of corpses on Terra "Oh he refused to die lol."
6) You can't claim someone is the best when they have been beaten numerous times (or at least twice). Crowe has not been beaten and fought Skulltaker (a better fighter than Lucius by virtue of his nature as the leading Herald of Khorne). He also fights with a larger number of distractions, namely the temptation of Chaos and the Warp and his sword, a weaker weapon than Lucius. In addition, he has no help from Chaos, like Lucius does, who revels in pain and stimulation, whereas it only hinders Crowe.

I would just like to point out that Crowe's sword a "weaker weapon than Lucius'" and has a "dull edge and no special features" has a FETHING DAEMON inside of it. So yeah "he may as well be using a sparring blade".

Also: even though honour guard are "only chosen for their heroism and the advice they can provide they're chapter master" (paraphrasing there), do you really think a chapter master would choose a swordsman that can't best an Ork Nob as his personal body guard?

 Brother Payne wrote:
I would just like to point out that Crowe's sword a "weaker weapon than Lucius'" and has a "dull edge and no special features" has a FETHING DAEMON inside of it. So yeah "he may as well be using a sparring blade".

Also: even though honour guard are "only chosen for their heroism and the advice they can provide they're chapter master" (paraphrasing there), do you really think a chapter master would choose a swordsman that can't best an Ork Nob as his personal body guard?

1. Crowe, as I have pointed out at least once, utterly refuses the abilities the sword presents to him. The entire point of his character is to be the only person who can resist it, being so pure. The Daemon is supressed and gives absolutely no power to Crowe's fighting (which is represented in the game as being a normal close combat weapon, no strength or AP bonuses).

Also, and I forget to mention previously, citing Lucius as having 10, 000 years experience as a reason for surperiority is not valid. You forget that much time is spent in the warp, where time moves differently. Therefore, for all we know, to him it might only 200 years.
In saying that, it is also possible it seems like 10, 000 years, or even longer, or maybe only a day or two. I'm not entirely dismissing the argument, just saying, its not entirely correct to say 10K years is definite and unmoving.

2. Honour Guard are primarily advisors. They can be heroes and warriors but they are primarily there to make sure the Chapter Master has all the information he needs. USUALLY, yes, they are incredible warriors in their own right. Its not a requirement though.

The question of Lucius has been raised many times.

-What if he is killed by an artillery shell, and the people who fired it have no idea who they just killed?
-What if he is killed by a Necron/Tyranid?
-What if he dies in an accident (transport explosion, for example)
-What if whoever kills him dies right afterwards, before turning into Lucius?

It can be fun to speculate, but I don't think there are any clear answers, it's a diffuse piece of fluff made to be a cool background story, nothing more.

Lucius vs a normal Grey Knight, Lucius wins. Those two variables are easy to decipher.

Solution! Imprison Lucy forever

Solution: 'Feed' Lucious to a Tomb Sentinel/Stalker.

I think the biggest problem with trying to get Lucius killed by a rogue shell, emotionless automation, etc. is that it just wont happen. Lucius does (or at least used to have) a certain degree of plot armor, otherwise his story ends and 40K looses another character.

So in short, Slannesh never allows him to be in positions where such an incident would happen. For some reason the shelling always happen over there. For some reason or another the tomb stalker is in the other part of the maze. Extermanatis bomb... damn you just missed him, he was there yesterday.

On the flip side, he does find himself often facing off against opponents worthy of his skill and lore. Somehow that lieutenant always comes around the bend. The Ork Nob comes crashing through the trees against his unit even when they are in the backfield.

I love his character because I see it as the perfect metaphore for chaos. You cant get rid of it, and even in victory it still will cost you your soul.

I don't even consider it plot-armor, honestly. Lucius is under the personal guardianship of Slaanesh. Slaanesh is a Chaos God of immense power. That's pretty much end of story. Lucius could be hurled into the Sun by an emotionless robot, and Slaanesh can still bring him back to life on a whim. His ship could spontaneously explode in the middle of space due to a cascade system failure, and she could still bring him back with a whim.

There are no loop-holes that would result in him staying dead.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't even consider it plot-armor, honestly. Lucius is under the personal guardianship of Slaanesh. Slaanesh is a Chaos God of immense power. That's pretty much end of story. Lucius could be hurled into the Sun by an emotionless robot, and Slaanesh can still bring him back to life on a whim. His ship could spontaneously explode in the middle of space due to a cascade system failure, and she could still bring him back with a whim.

There are no loop-holes that would result in him staying dead.

If someone managed to destroy his soul he would stay dead, that probably won't happen though. Best bet is to just put him in stasis somewhere.

Best bet is to run for your life. The chapter master of the grey knights could probably get him good.... but then the chapter master would have to destroy his own soul so as to not explode into Lucius.

Or if the master got lucky, he could destroy lucius' soul. I think its possible, but like buddy said "You jsut missed him! He was here a second ago!"

Chapter Master: "DAMMIT LUCIUS! I WILL FIND YOU!"

zeromaeus wrote:
Solution: 'Feed' Lucious to a Tomb Sentinel/Stalker.

You really want a giant, living metal Lucius? :p

Although there is the question of whether or not the Exile Ray actually kills the target. Lucius stranded forever in a hyperspace rubbish bin is a rather amusing thought.

Or what if you made Slaanesh really friggin' pissed of with him? He'd be straight up dead. Go directly to hell, do not pass go to not collect $200.

 Brother Payne wrote:
Or what if you made Slaanesh really friggin' pissed of with him? He'd be straight up dead. Go directly to hell, do not pass go to not collect $200.

I can't think of anything that would piss off a Chaos God considering that M'kar is still around. Only thing that might work is maybe if one day Lucius sits down and rethinks his life, deciding from that point on he'll live a conservative, Amish life style and never take pleasure in something or harm any other being.

I've always assumed there's a few dozen Lucius running around. For instance the tank or artillery crew scenario. Who gets the curse? I would assume slaanesh wouldn't be too picky about who aimed and who pulled the trigger. Whoever has the feels opens a door for the curse. Thus for every Lucius that dies to a truly pure GK or mindless servitor or accidentally kill's himself doing something gross and extreme in search of a new thrill, there's a scenario where two or more Lucius's are spawned from one lucky git who passed his curse on to several new bodies.

 Chaos Rising wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Lucius has been sort of retconned, prior to taking over a body that feels pride he was killed, dead as a door nail and apothecary fabius declared him as such, and then he came to life again and no one knows why, fluff wise only 1 other faction can do this to date and that the perpetuals, ref: Angel exterminatus.

Fabius revivea him does he not. It jas heen a while since I read that and I have to say I was rooing for the raven guard the whole time but it ends with him waking up in Fabius' lab with the strange creatures breaking out or something? Again been a long time since I last read it.

nope, fabius hasn't a clue how he came back to life and pretty much says as much.

There is no reason Lucius cannot be one of the most skilled swordsmen who has ever lived and still died lots of times in the past 10,000 years, for two reasons.

1) 10,000 years is a long time. Long enough for less skilled opponents to get lucky every now and again, or to find those exceedingly rare individuals even more skilled than him.

2) A lascannon to the face or a demolisher shell doesn't care how skilled you are with a blade.

Also, it's always fun to find ways Lucius could be killed without his armour gaining a new face; your best bets are people who themselves die immediately afterwards, or opponents without a soul or consciousness, like Ripper swarms, or a Necron warrior. Hell, any Tyranid in a swarm will do, as I very much doubt Slaanesh is powerful enough to subdue the Hive Mind into Lucius' armour.

Bran Dawri wrote:
There is no reason Lucius cannot be one of the most skilled swordsmen who has ever lived and still died lots of times in the past 10,000 years, for two reasons.

1) 10,000 years is a long time. Long enough for less skilled opponents to get lucky every now and again, or to find those exceedingly rare individuals even more skilled than him.

2) A lascannon to the face or a demolisher shell doesn't care how skilled you are with a blade.

Also, it's always fun to find ways Lucius could be killed without his armour gaining a new face; your best bets are people who themselves die immediately afterwards, or opponents without a soul or consciousness, like Ripper swarms, or a Necron warrior. Hell, any Tyranid in a swarm will do, as I very much doubt Slaanesh is powerful enough to subdue the Hive Mind into Lucius' armour.

A swordsman of his supposed skill level doesn't let luck come into things. Luck only plays a part when you don't control the variables. A perfect swordsman, what Lucius strives to be, controls the variables.

Does that mean he can control every aspect of whats around him? Luck always plays a part all you can do is make it a small one.