I see lots of complaints aimed at SM fangirls/boys all over the place. It is very stigmatised.

On the other hand, as I noticed over in the 'Can-SM-take-a-planet' thread, IG fanboys and so on are just as extreme.

Why has this escaped stigma?

Try to follow rule #1 in this, please. I want to analyse the situation and debate the cause and so on, not point fingers and throw insults.

Like it or not, Space Marines ARE 40k - you can't separate them, they're iconic and a big part of why 40k is so popular. Imagine not having them as part of the lore? Impossible.

I'd just chalk it up to "IG Fanboys" having some strange delusion that Warhammer 40k is different than Marvel and doesn't have superhumans with absurdly powerful abilities. Just that W40K isn't as absurd or garish as Marvel.

At least Eldar skin-tight body armor/suits look good. If you're going to wear spandex, at least put some armor on.

It is? I guess I was understanding the other thread differently.

Personally I don't like to stigmatize anything. You like what you like and that's a okay.

Generally though, I suppose it's more about some people not liking space marines. Then that dislike is reciprocated onto those who like space marines. If you look though, there is a stigma for pretty much everything. Stigmas for being fluff bunnys or Waac players is another big one for example.

It comes down to the people that play the game. Some don't like the idea of someone else liking an aspect of the game they don't. And so they stigmatize.

However, you really shouldn't make a thread about a stigma that you feel is directed unfairly and include your own stigma (IG fanboys). It detracts from the overall message you're trying to spread.

The stigma comes from the belief that space marines get the most attention from GW (which they do). This then leads to people seeing SM players as spoiled, entitled children who have no right to make judgements or complain. This is further illustrated by some SM players who actually have this attitude. Most of the SM fans I know aren't like this but their are a few who are.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
The stigma comes from the belief that space marines get the most attention from GW (which they do). This then leads to people seeing SM players as spoiled, entitled children who have no right to make judgements or complain. This is further illustrated by some SM players who actually have this attitude. Most of the SM fans I know aren't like this but their are a few who are.

I wish that love extended to Chaos Space Marines.

;_;

Forever alone.

I think it's because people are sick of Games Workshop and it's subdivision Black Library always spouting how Space Marines are the best and it's fans echoing this sentiment. I certainly don't care for how they are depicted as I think it makes 40k, for lack of a better word, vapid.

And I am a Space Marine fan as well. My growing collection of Black Templars will attest to that.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Like it or not, Space Marines ARE 40k - you can't separate them, they're iconic and a big part of why 40k is so popular. Imagine not having them as part of the lore? Impossible.

Because some think like that. There's also the whole ''my faction dudes are the bestests at everything everytime and nothing you have can do anything to them'' train of though that's really annoying. Yes a SM is better than a guardsman, maybe even a whole squad, but for hell sake, there's a limit.

There's very little books that I've read where SM are even featured, them being removed wouldn't be a great loss to me.

Tbh, that's the internet for you..
It's not just csm & IG vs SM
It's not just Dakka

It's the fact that people act differently on the interwebs than real life..
And far more aggressively, citation- google a psyche thread some time..
Dakka SM threads are no different people who would normally be polite in group face to face situations (not everyone alas) are far more aggressive and demeaning for the sake of domineering others with their argument over forums...

Welcome to humanity..

Personally I also get the feeling that SM fans view the SM as god-like unkillable or nearly so entities and that you might as well kill yourself rather than fight them,

I just see the IG as not incompetent, by comparision. Whereas SM are elite and very efficient shock troops, but still have limitations.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Like it or not, Space Marines ARE 40k - you can't separate them, they're iconic and a big part of why 40k is so popular. Imagine not having them as part of the lore? Impossible.

Because some think like that. There's also the whole ''my faction dudes are the bestests at everything everytime and nothing you have can do anything to them'' train of though that's really annoying. Yes a SM is better than a guardsman, maybe even a whole squad, but for hell sake, there's a limit.

There's very little books that I've read where SM are even featured, them being removed wouldn't be a great loss to me.

Just remember that Dak'ir the Salamander flew through space and cut a capital ship in half with his sword.

Remember it.

I... what? I can buy them tanking Autocannon rounds. I can even accept them be able to take a battlecannon round and walk away with it even though it kills me as a treadhead. But this just reached a new level of silly. This isn't just a superhero military setting. It's just... dumb.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I... what? I can buy them tanking Autocannon rounds. I can even accept them be able to take a battlecannon round and walk away with it even though it kills me as a treadhead. But this just reached a new level of silly. This isn't just a superhero military setting. It's just... dumb.

Well, I did forget the context. Dak'ir is also almost certainly an Alpha level Psyker. But he did go DBZ at the end of the Tome of Fire trilogy, and goddamn was it glorious.

Oh. Well, that makes sense. Alpha level psykers are insanely powerful.

AAaaaand this is why GW fluff-writers should NOT watch anime

SM's and IG are almost just as powerful as eachother but in different ways but one thing is certain. If either one of them is removed from the Imperium mankind will fall.

As for fanboy/girls, I never really noticed until now. I've been a warhammer 40k player, painter and collector since I was 12. I never noticed very many biased players. Good days I have going to my gaming store and joking and laughing about all the different races and the awesome powers each one possessed. There are a lot of weird things about all the races but remember this stuff is about 38,000 years in the future and anything is possible...

They're all just jealous of the pauldrons SM have. THEY'RE SO LARGE!

Space Marine fanboyism is stigmatized because that's what GW leans towards. Every since they realized they could milk it, GW has been making Space Marines better and betterer and bettererer.

IG fanboys are a pain, but at least we don't have to deal with IG fanboys writing the codices.

It's penis envy, basically. It's the same reason people hate mainstream music and movies that win tons of oscars.

It's a common thing for people to automatically be pushed away from things that are too popular.

Imperial Guard have that underdog swag that makes the ladies go "aaaahhhh", despite the fact that their plot-armor is pretty much thicker on average than even the Astartes.

Nothing wrong with SM

Oh you mean Space Marines
Their are GW's main boys, the big sellers, they get everything first, those who play "lesser" armies are annoyed by this, i hear the weeping of Sister of Battle fans, where is our codex, where are our miniatures!

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's penis envy, basically. It's the same reason people hate mainstream music and movies that win tons of oscars.

It's a common thing for people to automatically be pushed away from things that are too popular.

Imperial Guard have that underdog swag that makes the ladies go "aaaahhhh", despite the fact that their plot-armor is pretty much thicker on average than even the Astartes.

Oh please that an absurd statement to make about everyone who happens to dislike the faction you like. Its has nothing to do with penis envy and disliking SM fanboys does not mean your a hipster. TheCustomLime said it best with GW and SM fanboys constantly going on about how much better marines are then every other factions combined. It shows a lack of respect for the customers who happen to like something other then SM when their chosen faction is nothing more then bolter fodder for the poster boys. This probably wouldn't be a issue if GW, Black Library and Forge World simply had a more balanced approach and made sure to release plenty of fluff for every faction that shows them in a good light.

 Archon_Zarbyrn wrote:

Oh please that an absurd statement to make about everyone who happens to dislike the faction you like.

The Imperial Guard are my favorite faction.

Its has nothing to do with penis envy and disliking SM fanboys does not mean your a hipster. TheCustomLime said it best with GW and SM fanboys constantly going on about how much better marines are then every other factions combined.

GW does not do this, though. Which is my point.

Space Marines are depicted as being the best... within their own codex. In everyone else's codex they die like fodder. Daemons and CSM has them being corrupted by Chaos, scattered to the winds by the Gods, being overwhelmed, outgunned, tricked. The Necron codex consistently has Imhotek and others embarrassing space marines. Tyranids eat entire chapters and routinely crush them, especially in Space. I was just reading some fluff in my Guard codex this morning and chuckling at an entry regarding Guardsmen overwhelming and slaughtering Night Lords. The Tau have run off Space Marines on numerous occasions, and are apparently such a massive threat to the entire Imperium despite their relatively small population that one of the largest documented campaigns in 40K fluff history has, according to 6E IG codex, been unleashed to beat Shadowsun back, a crusade force that dwarfs the one fighting on Armageddon and is second only to the forces defending Cadia and the Great Crusade itself. In other news, Necrons can casually blow up every star in the Galaxy.

Outside of the codices, the most popular Black Library series for quite some time was... the Gaunt's Ghost novels, a series focused exclusively on a tiny Guardsmen regiment who routinely slaughters several magnitudes its own number in troops and wears a K/D Ratio that would make the Ultramarines feel inadequate. I just finished up Titanicus the other day, and one of the final chapters detailed three Skitarri killing over twelve times their number in enemy Skitarri before finally succumbing to their wounds and dying a heroes death.

Meanwhile, on the table-top itself Space Marines are a solidly mid-tier army who in general serve as a punching bag for Xenos like Tau and Eldar.

So allow me to whip out my tiny violin for non-Astartes factions and the "hype" they get from Games Workshop. Space Marines sell the best, they get the most attention from Forgeworld, they get the most supplements and they have way too many codices in proportion to how unique of a faction they are. But in-universe their depiction has been a lot more balanced than peoples' irrational envy and double-standards will allow them to see.

Not until you read Black Library bolter-porn that is. Then you'll see why people think that Games Workshop make Space Marines out to be the best there ever was. I don't know if such novels are in the majority but they sure speak the loudest on this forum.

Because it's fanboyism. Space marine fanboys aren't content with their favorite army being Starship Troopers power armor (elite of the elite drop pod infantry with jet packs and tactical nukes) with chainsaw swords and a lot more religious icons, they need to make them into literal superheroes that can conquer whole planets with a squad or two.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Not until you read Black Library bolter-porn that is.

I addressed Black Library in my post.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's penis envy, basically. It's the same reason people hate mainstream music and movies that win tons of oscars.

It's a common thing for people to automatically be pushed away from things that are too popular.

Imperial Guard have that underdog swag that makes the ladies go "aaaahhhh", despite the fact that their plot-armor is pretty much thicker on average than even the Astartes.

That's one thing I do like about most marine books. There's no such thing as the unnamed character getting whacked, because normally everybody has a name.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Because it's fanboyism. Space marine fanboys aren't content with their favorite army being Starship Troopers power armor (elite of the elite drop pod infantry with jet packs and tactical nukes) with chainsaw swords and a lot more religious icons, they need to make them into literal superheroes that can conquer whole planets with a squad or two.

They're not "making them out", that's what they officially do. Although they don't occupy planets, that's a job for the guard.

It's mostly the Ultramarines then mostly done, in a joking way somewhat, due to the endless attention they receive over the top of the other factions and more recently the Ward hype that he's been putting into anything with them. My only issue with marines as a whole is a few of the codices could be cut out to allow smoother updates, or given to more divergent chapters such as the Iron Hands or Raven Guard maybe. The thing is they'd have one giant book that'd take a long time to develop then, but that could be improved by having a core then doing supplements. Which of course would end up with the Ultras being the core due to their size over the other founding chapters to begin with.

The thing as well for me is the attention the Ultras get compared to other founding chapters such as the Iron Hands who seem to regularly get even less attention put to them than Ultra sucessors at times.

To be frank, I find the notion of a squad or two of SM to largely be utter nonsense to conquer whole planets. Although I'm fine with giving exceptions to the heroes of SM and, in particular, the psykers Then again, I largely scale my level a bit above tabletop and a decent bit below SM bolter porn stories which I tend to not take quite seriously because well yeah you all can probably guess why.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Because it's fanboyism. Space marine fanboys aren't content with their favorite army being Starship Troopers power armor (elite of the elite drop pod infantry with jet packs and tactical nukes) with chainsaw swords and a lot more religious icons, they need to make them into literal superheroes that can conquer whole planets with a squad or two.

They're not "making them out", that's what they officially do. Although they don't occupy planets, that's a job for the guard.

GW's official position is that the fluff is all myths and propaganda and wild exaggeration for the sake of telling an awesome story. Fanboys just insist that it all has to be literal truth.

Indeed.

Why do you think this phenomenon is exclusive to Space Marine fans, or is more typical in Space Marine fans?

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Not until you read Black Library bolter-porn that is.

I addressed Black Library in my post.

Somewhat. But Peregrine did remind me of a very important fact about 40k: A lot of it is half-truths, propaganda and outright lies. So you can pretty much believe whatever you want about the 40k Universe since it's all about as correct as each other. If I said that a Leman Russ demolisher can wipe out a squad of Space Marines I'm as right about that as the Black Library novel that says a Space Marine can "tank" anything coming from a Guard artillery piece.

I think one reason why Space Marine fanboyism is stigmatized is that they insist that their interpretation of the lore is more correct somehow.

That hasn't been my experience, at least not on this forum. There is a very heavy concentration of anti-marine sentiment. Look at this very thread, and the one below it.

Two individuals, myself and whatshiface, are pretty much alone in "defending" Specce Muhreens.

And Lynata and Melissia haven't even gotten here yet.

It's darkest before the dawn brehs.

One other thing to think about is how often GW's fluff is little more than "LOOK AT HOW AWESOME THIS ARMY IS" without any real story attached to the mindless violence and explosions. Space marines are the best because they kill everything, except the special space marines who are even more awesome because they're more powerful than regular space marines, all the way up to a whole GK codex whose fluff is pretty much "THIS SQUAD IS SO MUCH MOAR ELITE THAN THE LAST SQUAD" over and over again. Contrast that with the Culture: they're so ridiculously powerful that a single ship could kill the entire 40k galaxy with about as much effort as a person stepping on a bug, but because all of that firepower is just an interesting detail in an awesome story it's harder to get the same kind of fanboy attitude.

Say what you want about GW seriously loving SM. It may be true fluff wise, but if you hadn't noticed, (And this is clearly my opinion), Space Marines in general are MAYBE barely a top tier army. Their crunch is in D&D terms, Mediocre+1.

Like in Caddyshack 2, where he's trying to explain his current social class? SM are (imho) Upper-lower to much more likely Middle-upper.

And don't even get me started about the chapters with their own codex... Space Wolves, my spiritual bruvahs havent been good in a long time (though so many of you are bitter about those days)

Personally, I think the reason Marine fangirls/boys get so stigmatised is because, other than Sisters fangirls/boys, nobody takes any of the fanclubs seriously.

After all, lets break it down by popular opinion;

Space Marine Fanpeople: Arrogant, self-entitled twonks who think the world owes them everything.

Sisters Fanpeople: Arrogant, self-absorbed whiners who think they've got it sooo hard.

Guard Fanpeople: "Hey! Hey! Over here! We're cool too! Right? Please tell me I'm cool too..."

CSM Fanpeople: "Hi, my name's Ashiraya and I'm a Chaos player..." "Hi, Ashiraya."

:p

Hah, you nailed it on the head Miko.

I always thought Guard fanboys as people who think 40k should be more like Siege of Vraks over and over again while Space Marine fanboys want... more of that one book with Marines beating Guardsmen with their own tank treads. Or, in other words, spr srs bzness as opposed to wacky awesomeness.

Then there are Eldar fanboys who think their faction is unbeatable and they're right.

I dislike Marine fanboys because the feats they tout turn 40k into a comic book style.

I like things to be a little bit realistic, or at least plausible, given the laws of the universe or whathaveyou.

But Space Marine fanboys take all of the stories as literal truth (except the ones where Space Marines do badly), which turns 40k from a grimdark, gritty, over-the-top sci-fi setting into a comic-book, superhero, so-over-the-top-it-hurts fantasy setting.

... is 40K not a comic booky, superhero so over-the-top-it-hurts fantasy setting?

Last I checked, running across a warzone littered with tanks and machine gun-wielding baddies and giant robots and monsters with nothing but a sword and a pistol in your hands is considered a sound tactical maneuver in 40K... Guardsmen still employ trench-warfare tactics in a setting where people have city-leveling ICBM's, etc.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Last I checked, running across a warzone littered with tanks and machine gun-wielding baddies and giant robots and monsters with nothing but a sword and a pistol in your hands is considered a sound tactical maneuver in 40K...

Yes, but the question is how we interpret that story:

The realist says that it should be treated like a story about Jesus rising from the grave, grabbing a sharpened fragment of the cross, and chopping the antichrist's head off: sure, it makes a good scene in an action movie, but nobody should consider it literal truth (as opposed to Imperial religious propaganda about how awesome their saints and martyrs are). The realist says that the reality is much closer to what happens on the tabletop, where that "sound tactical maneuver" just gets you killed.

The space marine fanboy insists that the "sound tactical maneuver" is in fact a sound tactical maneuver, and talks endlessly about how awesome it is.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
CSM Fanpeople: "Hi, my name's Ashiraya and I'm a Chaos player..." "Hi, Ashiraya."

:p

The current meta at our FLGS is to CONSTANTLY talk crap about the "corpse-emprah" in loud obnoxious voices right next to people trying to play games. Quite annoying when you're a socially awkward heavily introverted person that doesn't enjoy face-to-face bantering.

Lets try my FLGS version of that one:

CSM Fanpeople: "Hi, my name's Ashiraya and I'm a Chaos player..." "Hi, Ashiraya. Space puppies are fighting pewter hands. Lets talk about how stupid their Imperium is."

 Peregrine wrote:

Yes, but the question is how we interpret that story:

Not in this instance. While individual events are certainly up to the interpretation of the reader, from an outside perspective, looking at 40K as a franchise and a setting, it's quite obvious that the thematic and aesthetic Games Workshop has been going for and has been going for for quite some time is for 40K to basically be WW2 in space, with a plethora of fantasy tropes, iconic movie inspirations, anime and other over-the-top influences packed in alongside it. There is very little within 40K as Games Workshop has presented it that paints it as some sort of grounded, realistic war-simulator like ARMA or something.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Because it's fanboyism. Space marine fanboys aren't content with their favorite army being Starship Troopers power armor (elite of the elite drop pod infantry with jet packs and tactical nukes) with chainsaw swords and a lot more religious icons, they need to make them into literal superheroes that can conquer whole planets with a squad or two.

They're not "making them out", that's what they officially do. Although they don't occupy planets, that's a job for the guard.

GW's official position is that the fluff is all myths and propaganda and wild exaggeration for the sake of telling an awesome story. Fanboys just insist that it all has to be literal truth.

So this is the only truth?

I'm still mostly pissed at the fanboyism that the SM players keep thinking CSM is nothing more then just a few scattered warbands here and there that SM easily stomps on because all CSM does is charge forward scream and get shot

Oh and we don't deserve anything because we're just a few scattered warbands who don't deserve anything equivalent to legion tactics.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I'm still mostly pissed at the fanboyism that the SM players keep thinking CSM is nothing more then just a few scattered warbands here and there that SM easily stomps on because all CSM does is charge forward scream and get shot

Oh and we don't deserve anything because we're just a few scattered warbands who don't deserve anything equivalent to legion tactics.

Haha, yes, glad someone else noticed. CSM's are slaughtered almost as bad as orks (a little bit of sarcasm but ya get da point). CSM's are just as smart and powerful as loyalists but since they are meant to die...they will die in great droves. Thanks a lot, nice to know CSM's are about as useless as the cultists they send to be butchered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Last I checked, running across a warzone littered with tanks and machine gun-wielding baddies and giant robots and monsters with nothing but a sword and a pistol in your hands is considered a sound tactical maneuver in 40K...

Yes, but the question is how we interpret that story:

The realist says that it should be treated like a story about Jesus rising from the grave, grabbing a sharpened fragment of the cross, and chopping the antichrist's head off: sure, it makes a good scene in an action movie, but nobody should consider it literal truth (as opposed to Imperial religious propaganda about how awesome their saints and martyrs are). The realist says that the reality is much closer to what happens on the tabletop, where that "sound tactical maneuver" just gets you killed.

The space marine fanboy insists that the "sound tactical maneuver" is in fact a sound tactical maneuver, and talks endlessly about how awesome it is.

Seriously, this is the 2nd thread you've posted anti-religious talk. Cut it out with your athiest beliefs, this is DakkaDakka, we are trying to talk about 40k. You can stop being ignorant with the amount of BS you spew in a single post.

One, Marines get dislike because of their playerbase. At least back when I used to play, the younger players would likely be playing Space Marines over something else.

Two, Games Workshop is constantly pushing the Marines forward, they're in every starter boxset. There's also a lot of fluff in which Marines do things that clearly rely on an auto-win button tucked sneakily into the back pocket of their jeans.

Three, from IG players especially, the Marines seem to get all the credit. The Guard does the bulk of the work, the Marines come in, steal the glory, and then laugh at the Guardsmen being equipped with flashlights and cardboard armour.

Four, the Ultramarines. They alone inspire a lot of hate because, as an extension of two, they're pushed as the best of the best. Moreover, they have very little unique about them. Blood Angels have the Death Company, Space Wolves have the haircuts, Dark Angels like to cross-dress. Ultramarines meanwhile are shown to be the bog-standard, and yet still the best of all the Marine chapters. There's nothing much wrong with them, nothing much special about them. I think people find them generally boring and this combines with GW's pushing of them as the bestest of the bestest to get people to dislike them.

I think the main reason for the dislike is that GW pushes them so hard, and that to many they aren't really special, just boring. Not to say that I agree with this. The Marine hate is something I'd tend to limit to Ultramarines personally. And that's mostly because I'd like to hear about someone interesting for a change.

Doombunny wrote:
One, Marines get dislike because of their playerbase. At least back when I used to play, the younger players would likely be playing Space Marines over something else.

Two, Games Workshop is constantly pushing the Marines forward, they're in every starter boxset. There's also a lot of fluff in which Marines do things that clearly rely on an auto-win button tucked sneakily into the back pocket of their jeans.

Three, from IG players especially, the Marines seem to get all the credit. The Guard does the bulk of the work, the Marines come in, steal the glory, and then laugh at the Guardsmen being equipped with flashlights and cardboard armour.

Four, the Ultramarines. They alone inspire a lot of hate because, as an extension of two, they're pushed as the best of the best. Moreover, they have very little unique about them. Blood Angels have the Death Company, Space Wolves have the haircuts, Dark Angels like to cross-dress. Ultramarines meanwhile are shown to be the bog-standard, and yet still the best of all the Marine chapters. There's nothing much wrong with them, nothing much special about them. I think people find them generally boring and this combines with GW's pushing of them as the bestest of the bestest to get people to dislike them.

I think the main reason for the dislike is that GW pushes them so hard, and that to many they aren't really special, just boring. Not to say that I agree with this. The Marine hate is something I'd tend to limit to Ultramarines personally. And that's mostly because I'd like to hear about someone interesting for a change.

Haha, perfectly worded actually. My favorite SM chapter is the Imperial Fists but guess which chapter I first played?? ULTRAMARINES!

Like you said, a lot of SM chapters have a certain personality trait, something people can love and cling to. Ultramarines...are just these really overused SM's with no particular design or trait. They're just suppose to be liked because GW says so and that's whats boring about them.

I like Ultramarines don't get me wrong, it's just they need more personality while at the same time giving attention to other SM chapters.

Space Wolves for instance seem to be a fan sensation along with a few others. They have this awesome thing about them, they look like vikings, they howl like wolves and can even turn into one should they become too blood thirsty (or if that's not true forgive me, I am a bit short of knowledge with Space Wolves).

But despite these cool traits they are never really showed off. It's always the Ultras. Understandably aggravating to SW players and BA players and anyone else who feels their loved chapter is constantly left in the dark. GW seems to fail at a lot of what it does, but I will always love Warhammer 40k

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Because it's fanboyism. Space marine fanboys aren't content with their favorite army being Starship Troopers power armor (elite of the elite drop pod infantry with jet packs and tactical nukes) with chainsaw swords and a lot more religious icons, they need to make them into literal superheroes that can conquer whole planets with a squad or two.

They're not "making them out", that's what they officially do. Although they don't occupy planets, that's a job for the guard.

GW's official position is that the fluff is all myths and propaganda and wild exaggeration for the sake of telling an awesome story. Fanboys just insist that it all has to be literal truth.

Why do you assume this is only true for the Space Marines?

Maybe the oh-so-great power of the Battle Cannon is just propaganda, and in truth it hits like a wet noodle. The common man is far more likely to see a Battle Cannon in action than an Astartes, but it is irrelevant since the Imperium has little issues with publishing hilariously untrue propaganda that falls apart the moment the battle starts anyway. (See: Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer)

The claim that space marine players are spoiled ignores the fact that most space marine players, either chaos or loyalist, are forced to use mediocre rules most of the time. Space Marines often form a baseline of sorts for the power level of the armies. The current book is one of the rare times when the loyalists are one of the stronger more solid armies.

There are some reasons to my mind why this is so.

Personally, the Space Marines have been becoming less and less interesting as time goes on. They're becoming more and more "Heroic" and "Medieval" or "Knightly", becoming much more one-dimensional heroes and much less of the more ambiguous "Psycho-indoctrinated genetically engineered xenophobic super-solider". The models and imagery are much more "Knightly" with wreaths and furs and golden decorations galore, with less of the more 2nd/3rd edition mechanical look with more pipes/chains/spikes/blades/servos and whatnot.

The writing quality has also been increasingly...controversial as well, with many viewing SM fluff of the last few editions as decreasing in terms of quality relative to older editions.

These in turn make it difficult for many to see enthusiasm for SM's as a fun thing.

There's been much the same sort of thing happening to the Chaos Space Marines, with many perceiving the visualization and fluff GW has been putting out as inferior and more one-dimensional or trope-laden than previous editions and many CSM players have been railing against that. The difference here I think is that most of the CSM players actively voice dislike for the changes while many SM players embrace the way GW has been directing the SM's.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Because it's fanboyism. Space marine fanboys aren't content with their favorite army being Starship Troopers power armor (elite of the elite drop pod infantry with jet packs and tactical nukes) with chainsaw swords and a lot more religious icons, they need to make them into literal superheroes that can conquer whole planets with a squad or two.

They're not "making them out", that's what they officially do. Although they don't occupy planets, that's a job for the guard.

GW's official position is that the fluff is all myths and propaganda and wild exaggeration for the sake of telling an awesome story. Fanboys just insist that it all has to be literal truth.

Mind quoting the GW CEO on that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
There are some reasons to my mind why this is so.

Personally, the Space Marines have been becoming less and less interesting as time goes on. They're becoming more and more "Heroic" and "Medieval" or "Knightly", becoming much more one-dimensional heroes and much less of the more ambiguous "Psycho-indoctrinated genetically engineered xenophobic super-solider". The models and imagery are much more "Knightly" with wreaths and furs and golden decorations galore, with less of the more 2nd/3rd edition mechanical look with more pipes/chains/spikes/blades/servos and whatnot.

The writing quality has also been increasingly...controversial as well, with many viewing SM fluff of the last few editions as decreasing in terms of quality relative to older editions.

These in turn make it difficult for many to see enthusiasm for SM's as a fun thing.

There's been much the same sort of thing happening to the Chaos Space Marines, with many perceiving the visualization and fluff GW has been putting out as inferior and more one-dimensional or trope-laden than previous editions and many CSM players have been railing against that. The difference here I think is that most of the CSM players actively voice dislike for the changes while many SM players embrace the way GW has been directing the SM's.

Pretty much exactly why I'm building a CSM army. Besides some exceptions like the Saladamners, Black Dragons, or Iron Hands, loyalist look like gak. Needs more spikes and topknots.

For me, it's all about how much you have to suspend your disbelief. In the Tanith IG books, you've got drawn out fire fights, tough battles, and guys dying. Basically Saving Private Ryan style. It's in a fantasy sci fi setting, but their feats on the battle field are believable in an action movie sort of way.

Reading the Wolf of Ash and Fire, the marines crash into an Ork asteroid at high speed, then Horus jumps after the Emperor and takes the time to describe how he's falling literally kilometers, passing all sorts of random power plants and things, before crashing to the ground and being fine. Then he just walks through masses of Orks without so much as a second glance and defeats a massive Ork machine before the Emperor swallows a plasma detonation or something.

It's the difference between batman and superman. Batman is always vulnerable, surviving on his wit, skill, and luck like the IG. SM are like Superman, just brute forcing any problem, and if there's a new challenge, they just have some secret weapon or ability to deus ex their way out of it. SM fluff should emphasize their strategic acumen and coordination (think Tom Clancy Rainbow Six) and less we're invincible demigods who can survive exploding volcanoes and win when outnumbered 1,000 to 1.

 TheSilo wrote:
For me, it's all about how much you have to suspend your disbelief. In the Tanith IG books, you've got drawn out fire fights, tough battles, and guys dying. Basically Saving Private Ryan style. It's in a fantasy sci fi setting, but their feats on the battle field are believable in an action movie sort of way.

Reading the Wolf of Ash and Fire, the marines crash into an Ork asteroid at high speed, then Horus jumps after the Emperor and takes the time to describe how he's falling literally kilometers, passing all sorts of random power plants and things, before crashing to the ground and being fine. Then he just walks through masses of Orks without so much as a second glance and defeats a massive Ork machine before the Emperor swallows a plasma detonation or something.

It's the difference between batman and superman. Batman is always vulnerable, surviving on his wit, skill, and luck like the IG. SM are like Superman, just brute forcing any problem, and if there's a new challenge, they just have some secret weapon or ability to deus ex their way out of it. SM fluff should emphasize their strategic acumen and coordination (think Tom Clancy Rainbow Six) and less we're invincible demigods who can survive exploding volcanoes and win when outnumbered 1,000 to 1.

You've got that kinda backwards, much of the time Batman relies on plot power, bad writing and overall things coming last second with much dues ex machina, you can plan for things but being able to plan out being able to beat GODS is still pretty bad.

Superman often fights more mental opponents, the ones he cant usually just brute force and so it actually forces him to deal with things through it. (Also when does superman have some sort of secret weapon?) Superman hasn't had new abilities since the silver-age kept adding new insane things.

 PhillyT wrote:
The claim that space marine players are spoiled ignores the fact that most space marine players, either chaos or loyalist, are forced to use mediocre rules most of the time.

On the other hand GW does publish absolute truckloads of different Marine kits in plastic, and most can be mixed and matched to produce awesome models. They push marines at every turn, probably because it's so cheap to tool up a new marine kit based on the previous one. All the while other armies have to suffer from units with no models or in the extreme (SoB) expensive metal pieces and no flyers unless you pay premium for Forgeworld.

Yes, marine books aren't always top performers - but almost any model they want is available in plastic at basic GW price.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
You've got that kinda backwards, much of the time Batman relies on plot power. Superman often fights more mental opponents, the ones he cant usually just brute force and so it actually forces him to deal with things through it.

IIRC Superman does the deus-ex-machine quite often too - everything seems to be going like the opponent planned until he's foiled at the last minute by Superman who then explains he saw through the plot at first glance and just went along. Writing for them both does have some different challenges though - Batman is just a man and needs worry about not being plain shot while Superman could basically just dismantle every military on Earth if he decided that's best.

"Why is SM-fanboyism so stigmatised?"

Because at first glance these are the heroes of the game.

The people who want to play the Paladin.
When as you dig deeper the line of hero and villain means less.

They are an obvious strong army: Power Armor like Iron Man! They fire bullets that explode like grenades! They "Know no Fear".

For older types like me who read the original "Starship Trooper" those power suits are what a real space marine would use.

Guess it boils down to them being a cliché barely realizing their potential.

Having said that, I play BT because the idea of frothing religious zealots who even the Orks have a particular affection for, says something!

 TheSilo wrote:
For me, it's all about how much you have to suspend your disbelief. In the Tanith IG books, you've got drawn out fire fights, tough battles, and guys dying. Basically Saving Private Ryan style. It's in a fantasy sci fi setting, but their feats on the battle field are believable in an action movie sort of way.

Reading the Wolf of Ash and Fire, the marines crash into an Ork asteroid at high speed, then Horus jumps after the Emperor and takes the time to describe how he's falling literally kilometers, passing all sorts of random power plants and things, before crashing to the ground and being fine. Then he just walks through masses of Orks without so much as a second glance and defeats a massive Ork machine before the Emperor swallows a plasma detonation or something.

It's the difference between batman and superman. Batman is always vulnerable, surviving on his wit, skill, and luck like the IG. SM are like Superman, just brute forcing any problem, and if there's a new challenge, they just have some secret weapon or ability to deus ex their way out of it. SM fluff should emphasize their strategic acumen and coordination (think Tom Clancy Rainbow Six) and less we're invincible demigods who can survive exploding volcanoes and win when outnumbered 1,000 to 1.

This is part of the reason I liked Abnett's Marine book (I forget the name, something about serpents?), because whilst still tough, the Marines had some vulnerability.

Marines being proofed against small arms fire, and with some protection against heavier weapons is ok. Once they start doing things like taking battle cannon rounds and plasma bolts to the face and reacting as if it's just a minor inconvenience, they stop being interesting.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I see lots of complaints aimed at SM fangirls/boys all over the place. It is very stigmatised.

On the other hand, as I noticed over in the 'Can-SM-take-a-planet' thread, IG fanboys and so on are just as extreme.

Why has this escaped stigma?

Try to follow rule #1 in this, please. I want to analyse the situation and debate the cause and so on, not point fingers and throw insults.

there are more of them than us, in my meta i can count the non sm players on two hands everybody else plays a variant of loyalist sm. IG fans like my self hate the fact that the sm seem to show up for the last 10 minutes and take all the credit (in my opinion). It seems that everybody else is logical and we are 40k's resident donkey-caves and are the dumbassses who take billions of casualties to take a hill. I had a gw worker tell me that sm are the most relatable faction because they experience fear. What? That kind of attitude is why i dont like sm fans. Hey look at my 65 point (not sure on cost, is approximate) 2+5++ saves with a missile launcher. The guy who told me that then ignored me when i told him everything he could buy with it. They come of as stuck up. At least i have the only imperial calvary unit noooooooo wait, they suck, never mind. I feel my buddies can use the 3+ save to cover bad tactics.

Doombunny wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:
For me, it's all about how much you have to suspend your disbelief. In the Tanith IG books, you've got drawn out fire fights, tough battles, and guys dying. Basically Saving Private Ryan style. It's in a fantasy sci fi setting, but their feats on the battle field are believable in an action movie sort of way.

Reading the Wolf of Ash and Fire, the marines crash into an Ork asteroid at high speed, then Horus jumps after the Emperor and takes the time to describe how he's falling literally kilometers, passing all sorts of random power plants and things, before crashing to the ground and being fine. Then he just walks through masses of Orks without so much as a second glance and defeats a massive Ork machine before the Emperor swallows a plasma detonation or something.

It's the difference between batman and superman. Batman is always vulnerable, surviving on his wit, skill, and luck like the IG. SM are like Superman, just brute forcing any problem, and if there's a new challenge, they just have some secret weapon or ability to deus ex their way out of it. SM fluff should emphasize their strategic acumen and coordination (think Tom Clancy Rainbow Six) and less we're invincible demigods who can survive exploding volcanoes and win when outnumbered 1,000 to 1.

This is part of the reason I liked Abnett's Marine book (I forget the name, something about serpents?), because whilst still tough, the Marines had some vulnerability.

Marines being proofed against small arms fire, and with some protection against heavier weapons is ok. Once they start doing things like taking battle cannon rounds and plasma bolts to the face and reacting as if it's just a minor inconvenience, they stop being interesting.

I prefer a middle road. They can tank battle cannons and plasma shots, no problems, but it's certainly more than a minor inconvenience to them.

Doombunny wrote:

This is part of the reason I liked Abnett's Marine book (I forget the name, something about serpents?), because whilst still tough, the Marines had some vulnerability.

Brothers of the Snake? I actually had the opposite reaction. I found it to be a fairly ludicrous over-exaggeration of Marine capabilities. Sending a single Marine to deal with an unknown number of Dark Eldar pirates, or having a single tac squad literally slay thousands of Dark Eldar with no major casualties, etc.

 Ashiraya wrote:


This is part of the reason I liked Abnett's Marine book (I forget the name, something about serpents?), because whilst still tough, the Marines had some vulnerability.


I prefer a middle road. They can tank battle cannons and plasma shots, no problems, but it's certainly more than a minor inconvenience to them.

That's hardly a middle road, you're talking about weapons tailor made for killing heavy infantry like Space Marines here...

 Vaktathi wrote:

Doombunny wrote:

This is part of the reason I liked Abnett's Marine book (I forget the name, something about serpents?), because whilst still tough, the Marines had some vulnerability.

Brothers of the Snake? I actually had the opposite reaction. I found it to be a fairly ludicrous over-exaggeration of Marine capabilities. Sending a single Marine to deal with an unknown number of Dark Eldar pirates, or having a single tac squad literally slay thousands of Dark Eldar with no major casualties, etc.

 Ashiraya wrote:


This is part of the reason I liked Abnett's Marine book (I forget the name, something about serpents?), because whilst still tough, the Marines had some vulnerability.


I prefer a middle road. They can tank battle cannons and plasma shots, no problems, but it's certainly more than a minor inconvenience to them.

That's hardly a middle road, you're talking about weapons tailor made for killing heavy infantry like Space Marines here...

Actually, that they are so effective is just because of what you have to compare them to. Lasguns, for example. I consider lasguns functionally uncapable of penetrating power armour, simply lacking the necessary punch. It'll scorch the 'soft' armour, sure, but not penetrate. Not even a hit against the eyeslit is one I expect to penetrate- it will possibly scorch it to the point where the helmet must be discarded but it won't smash through.

If a Space Marine is struck by a plasma shot, what happens depends on several factors:

What kind of plasma shot? Tau? Imperial Guard? CSM? Eldar?

Assuming the shot comes from an Astartes issue MKII 'Ragefire' pattern Plasma Gun, and that the shots hit the breastplate, I'd expect the first shot to melt partway through the armour, the second to almost go all the way through, and then the Marine's body can only take a few more before the Plasma destroys his chest. Melta has similar effects, albeit is less effective due to reduced rate of fire.

I always thought Plasma Guns were functionally similar regardless of user if not identical and they could punch through power armor with ease. Most fluff I've read about Lasguns say they can go through the vulnerable parts of power armor just fine as well.

I suppose it is up to what you believe 40k is, though. I personally consider power armor capable of "tanking" small arms fire with ease but once you start getting into the heavy AT guns like Railguns or Vanquisher cannons... yeah, that'll pulverize the PA and the Astartes within it if gets a good hit.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I always thought Plasma Guns were functionally similar regardless of user if not identical and they could punch through power armor with ease. Most fluff I've read about Lasguns say they can go through the vulnerable parts of power armor just fine as well.

I suppose it is up to what you believe 40k is, though.

I have not once encountered any Astartes who took a plasma shot to the center of mass or head and survived. Dodged, sure. Survived? Never.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Brothers of the Snake? I actually had the opposite reaction. I found it to be a fairly ludicrous over-exaggeration of Marine capabilities. Sending a single Marine to deal with an unknown number of Dark Eldar pirates, or having a single tac squad literally slay thousands of Dark Eldar with no major casualties, etc.

Tbh, all I remember from it are the Chaos bits, long time since I read it. I remember the squad being fairly badly handled at one point by a bunch of cultists, and at another point being shot up by some Chaos Marines. Both times they won, but IIRC the end result being that they needed to go replace a sizeable part of the squad. I seem to recall a couple getting knocked off by Orks as well?

 Ashiraya wrote:
I prefer a middle road. They can tank battle cannons and plasma shots, no problems, but it's certainly more than a minor inconvenience to them.

I don't mind them surviving such things, albeit badly wounded/because of some thing getting in the way. It's more when such things are just shrugged off and they continue fighting at full capability/barely reduced that makes me a little bored.

 Ashiraya wrote:


Actually, that they are so effective is just because of what you have to compare them to. Lasguns, for example. I consider lasguns functionally uncapable of penetrating power armour, simply lacking the necessary punch. It'll scorch the 'soft' armour, sure, but not penetrate.

And yet we have fluff of Marines being killed by las/stub guns and things like Mortars (in Storm of Iron for instance a Heresy era veteran siege engineer gets killed by a simple IG mortar). A single lasgun shot probably won't penetrate a breastplate, I won't debate that, but successive shots will likely damage the armor and eventually penetrate. IIRC there's either a gaunts ghosts or Cain book where exactly that happens. We have marines being felled by things like bladed weapons all the time that penetrate through weaker armor like neck joints and whatnot.

If a Space Marine is struck by a plasma shot, what happens depends on several factors:

What kind of plasma shot? Tau? Imperial Guard? CSM? Eldar?

Assuming the shot comes from an Astartes issue MKII 'Ragefire' pattern Plasma Gun, and that the shots hit the breastplate, I'd expect the first shot to melt partway through the armour, the second to almost go all the way through, and then the Marine's body can only take a few more before the Plasma destroys his chest. Melta has similar effects, albeit is less effective due to reduced rate of fire.

Every fluff instance I can recall of a marine taking what in-game would be equivalent to an S6/7 Ap2 shot usually results in a fatal wound or a wound extensive enough to require retirement from battle and subsequent cybernetic rebuilding.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Seriously, this is the 2nd thread you've posted anti-religious talk. Cut it out with your athiest beliefs, this is DakkaDakka, we are trying to talk about 40k. You can stop being ignorant with the amount of BS you spew in a single post.

How about no. I'll criticize any ridiculous beliefs I want, whether it's space marine worship or god worship. After all, it's not like any of those real-world religions are any more plausible than the ones in 40k...

 Ashiraya wrote:
Why do you assume this is only true for the Space Marines?

Maybe the oh-so-great power of the Battle Cannon is just propaganda, and in truth it hits like a wet noodle.

The difference is that we don't see battle cannons doing anything beyond what a real-world tank gun can do. Therefore there is no reason to suspect that its portrayal is inaccurate.

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I see lots of complaints aimed at SM fangirls/boys all over the place. It is very stigmatised.

On the other hand, as I noticed over in the 'Can-SM-take-a-planet' thread, IG fanboys and so on are just as extreme.

Why has this escaped stigma?

Try to follow rule #1 in this, please. I want to analyse the situation and debate the cause and so on, not point fingers and throw insults.

there are more of them than us, in my meta i can count the non sm players on two hands everybody else plays a variant of loyalist sm. IG fans like my self hate the fact that the sm seem to show up for the last 10 minutes and take all the credit (in my opinion). It seems that everybody else is logical and we are 40k's resident donkey-caves and are the dumbassses who take billions of casualties to take a hill. I had a gw worker tell me that sm are the most relatable faction because they experience fear. What? That kind of attitude is why i dont like sm fans. Hey look at my 65 point (not sure on cost, is approximate) 2+5++ saves with a missile launcher. The guy who told me that then ignored me when i told him everything he could buy with it. They come of as stuck up. At least i have the only imperial calvary unit noooooooo wait, they suck, never mind. I feel my buddies can use the 3+ save to cover bad tactics.

That. I. Uhm. Uh, yeaaaaah. That guy should be fired and/or slapped with a Space Marine codex. Just. what. I don't even have a response for that besides what.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Seriously, this is the 2nd thread you've posted anti-religious talk. Cut it out with your athiest beliefs, this is DakkaDakka, we are trying to talk about 40k. You can stop being ignorant with the amount of BS you spew in a single post.

How about no. I'll criticize any ridiculous beliefs I want, whether it's space marine worship or god worship. After all, it's not like any of those real-world religions are any more plausible than the ones in 40k...

Hey come on. Dakkas first rule is to be respectful. If your language is offending people, and are asked to stop, then please be respectful and at least try to keep certain things out of the discussion that dont need to be brought up in the first place.

Your personal attacks on my beliefs don't really phase me in the slightest, as one guy on the internet isn't going to impact my thoughts to the subject at all, but if some are offended by them then just try and tone down the insults. Please.

Do you consider criticism insulting?

 Wyzilla wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
I had a gw worker tell me that sm are the most relatable faction because they experience fear.

That. I. Uhm. Uh, yeaaaaah. That guy should be fired and/or slapped with a Space Marine codex. Just. what. I don't even have a response for that besides what.

"And they shall know some fear...

But not too much... That would kind of ruin the whole super-soldier thing."

Doombunny wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
I had a gw worker tell me that sm are the most relatable faction because they experience fear.

That. I. Uhm. Uh, yeaaaaah. That guy should be fired and/or slapped with a Space Marine codex. Just. what. I don't even have a response for that besides what.

"And they shall know some fear...

But not too much... That would kind of ruin the whole super-soldier thing."

"A tiny bit of fear with afternoon tea..."

 Ashiraya wrote:
Do you consider criticism insulting?

Depends


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Seriously, this is the 2nd thread you've posted anti-religious talk. Cut it out with your athiest beliefs, this is DakkaDakka, we are trying to talk about 40k. You can stop being ignorant with the amount of BS you spew in a single post.

How about no. I'll criticize any ridiculous beliefs I want, whether it's space marine worship or god worship. After all, it's not like any of those real-world religions are any more plausible than the ones in 40k...

 Ashiraya wrote:
Why do you assume this is only true for the Space Marines?

Maybe the oh-so-great power of the Battle Cannon is just propaganda, and in truth it hits like a wet noodle.

The difference is that we don't see battle cannons doing anything beyond what a real-world tank gun can do. Therefore there is no reason to suspect that its portrayal is inaccurate.

It doesn't matter what you think about religion. Can you talk about 40k without trampling peoples beliefs and insulting my intelligence? There was no need for you to say the things you said so stop being an immature piece of work. Debate with a little bit of humility, this is suppose to be a friendly community.

Can we agree that an extreme amount of regard for something that others may find misguided or a "waste of time" is still a matter of opinion?

An opinion may not need to be jammed down someone's throat but presented more moderately at least out of a token attempt of being polite.

Rather brutal and "successful" wars are going on as we speak based on strong beliefs.

Just telling people I am a "Miniature hobbyist" still gets all kinds of strange looks, saying I play "Spaaassss Mahrinesss" makes it worse.

At least the chess set I made for my dad of Lord of the Rings makes his buddies go "Holy crap!" and makes it all OK.

Orks: Fantasy, somewhat ok.
Dark Eldar: Twisted evil, goth stuff.
Necrons: Robots! with a real death/goth thing happening with lots of casket shapes.
Eldar: pretty looking smooth stuff...
Tau: Japanese Anime stomping robots!
Imperial Guard: Looks comfortingly like conventional armies.

Space Marines: guys in armor with guns. Kinda spacey looking.

Dunno, people like to compartmentalize and it makes us feel so much better to make fun of others so marines got the short straw, that is what you get for being the "poster child".

Wyzilla wrote:
I have not once encountered any Astartes who took a plasma shot to the center of mass or head and survived. Dodged, sure. Survived? Never.

Henry Zhou seems rather fond of plasma pistols leaving cute little dents in power armoure to no real effect.

Peregrine wrote:
How about no. I'll criticize any ridiculous beliefs I want, whether it's space marine worship or god worship. After all, it's not like any of those real-world religions are any more plausible than the ones in 40k...

How about you keep your real life religion out of my wargame, thank you very much.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Can you talk about 40k without trampling peoples beliefs and insulting my intelligence?

I didn't insult your intelligence.

There was no need for you to say the things you said so stop being an immature piece of work.

Sure there was. I needed a real-world religion to compare with how the Imperium treats space marines. I used Zeus the first time, Jesus the second time. All three of them are absurd stories that should never be considered literal truth. I was planning to use another god next time, but maybe I'll just keep using Jesus since you seem to like it so much.

There's a difference between being a fan and being a rabid fanboy. The former is usually not looked down upon. The latter usually is.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Can you talk about 40k without trampling peoples beliefs and insulting my intelligence?

I didn't insult your intelligence.

There was no need for you to say the things you said so stop being an immature piece of work.

Sure there was. I needed a real-world religion to compare with how the Imperium treats space marines. I used Zeus the first time, Jesus the second time. All three of them are absurd stories that should never be considered literal truth. I was planning to use another god next time, but maybe I'll just keep using Jesus since you seem to like it so much.

You insulted me plenty in the previous thread.

Well, go ahead and do that then. Your immaturity level is spiking through the roof. What are trying to prove? Trying to show how big and strong a man you are? Im just so done with you.

Tarkin, there's an ignore button for a reason. Just use it before you pop a vein or something.

Peregine, while your christian example was so far out of character for Jesus in the bible as to be an obvious satire, perhaps religious analogy isn't the best way to get your message across?

Naw, I'm fine.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Peregine, while your christian example was so far out of character for Jesus in the bible as to be an obvious satire, perhaps religious analogy isn't the best way to get your message across?

Of course it was the best way, because that's the whole point of my argument: stories about space marines are the equivalent of real-world religious myths. They are, at best, based very loosely on real events that have been wildly exaggerated to make a more impressive myth. But yet, in their respective universes, they are both considered literal truth by the people who believe in those religions. Understanding this is key to understanding how space marine fluff works.

(And I'll once again note that nobody had any problem with my similar example about Zeus killing everything and then having some really kinky sex, so I guess we're just going to continue this ridiculous idea that Christianity is a special snowflake and can't be criticized.)

This is where we stop bringing up the validity of religion in a 40k Background thread. Even if there are parallels, it won't fly and it simply gets threads closed---there are plenty of other forums on the internet that foster that arena of discussion.

Last warning for the thread.

Ryan

edit: post removed upon viewing moderator crosspost.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Try to follow rule #1 in this, please. I want to analyse the situation and debate the cause and so on, not point fingers and throw insults.

:|

 Ashiraya wrote:
I see lots of complaints aimed at SM fangirls/boys all over the place. It is very stigmatised.

On the other hand, as I noticed over in the 'Can-SM-take-a-planet' thread, IG fanboys and so on are just as extreme.

Why has this escaped stigma?

I think the thing is you do not notice all the complaints at jape that you throw at “Not-marine fanboy” (because really, it is not just about IG), but you sure do notice a lot what they throw back at you . Also, has it have been mentioned, plain old jealousy too.
Beside, even between Marine fanboys themselves… I am pretty sure tons of Marines fanboy complain about “Robot Girlyman” and his “Ultrasmurff” being their “spiritual liege”, do they not?

Trust me, you should be happy of getting your stigma rather than our stigma+lack of models+lack of rules+lack of presence in video games+lack of… about everything .

Its the price of being the king of the hill.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
edit: post removed upon viewing moderator crosspost.

Just want to point this out--many times moderators are forced to magically appear when alerts/questionable posts pop up--and some of those times someone has cross posted after an in thread moderator alert was being submitted. Almost no one ever edits their cross post and leaves it in a sense of 'last word'.

Furyou Miko did a very mature (and welcome) thing here, by editing her cross post and helping deescalate the thread. Thanks for that Miko.

Ryan

Her.
I think we should get some way to indicate gender on the forum, next to the username for instance.
That, or changing English usage so that the use of gender-neutral pronoun become the norm .

Hah, thanks and very well put . Changed due to accuracy (and something something, me assuming gender stereotypes in a miniature game site).

I also added this suggestion in the moderator forum--not sure if it's worth Lego doing but definitely worth tossing around.

Thanks,
Ryan

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Her.
I think we should get some way to indicate gender on the forum, next to the username for instance.
That, or changing English usage so that the use of gender-neutral pronoun become the norm .

I think B&C has that. Would be neat, but it most likely regarded as a lot of work for no big gain.

Make a thread in N&B?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Wyzilla wrote:
I have not once encountered any Astartes who took a plasma shot to the center of mass or head and survived. Dodged, sure. Survived? Never.

Henry Zhou seems rather fond of plasma pistols leaving cute little dents in power armoure to no real effect.

Kinda makes you wonder why anyone would carry a weapon which isn't particularly better than a normal Lasgun and yet tries to kill you every so often.

I believe the reason why SM fanboyism is stigmatised because of something that is in geek culture. Geek culture is seen as a counter culture, from what is mainstream culture. So in warhammer community, Space Marines are seen as the mainstream, the most accessible and therefore holding the least geek credibility.

Generally because GW/BL denigrates all other factions in order to make the Space Marines seem special. Sometimes very blatantly and badly so.

Right, such as with "Hurr hurr, your silly plasma does nothing to my power armor!"

 Melissia wrote:
Right, such as with "Hurr hurr, your silly plasma does nothing to my power armor!"

Yeah, damn those SoB and their PA, agree completely.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Right, such as with "Hurr hurr, your silly plasma does nothing to my power armor!"

Yeah, damn those SoB and their PA, agree completely.

It's still silly as all get out. Space Marines have several counters and Plasma is a notable one. Then you get some authors saying "Nope, Plasma doesn't do anything to Space Marines". It feels like kids play fighting and one kid telling another that his attacks don't affect him for contrived reasons.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Right, such as with "Hurr hurr, your silly plasma does nothing to my power armor!"

Yeah, damn those SoB and their PA, agree completely.

It's still silly as all get out. Space Marines have several counters and Plasma is a notable one. Then you get some authors saying "Nope, Plasma doesn't do anything to Space Marines". It feels like kids play fighting and one kid telling another that his attacks don't affect him for contrived reasons.

I have never argued, and I never will, that Plasma does nothing to Space Marines. Neither has I seen anyone else do, other than mention Zhou as an anecdote.

Who are you arguing against?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Seriously, this is the 2nd thread you've posted anti-religious talk. Cut it out with your athiest beliefs, this is DakkaDakka, we are trying to talk about 40k. You can stop being ignorant with the amount of BS you spew in a single post.

How about no. I'll criticize any ridiculous beliefs I want, whether it's space marine worship or god worship. After all, it's not like any of those real-world religions are any more plausible than the ones in 40k...

 Ashiraya wrote:
Why do you assume this is only true for the Space Marines?

Maybe the oh-so-great power of the Battle Cannon is just propaganda, and in truth it hits like a wet noodle.

The difference is that we don't see battle cannons doing anything beyond what a real-world tank gun can do. Therefore there is no reason to suspect that its portrayal is inaccurate.

you know it is kind of silly to try to start a religious war here of all places. I tend to keep religon out of my posts unless someone is offensive but this is a forum for semi intelligent discussion on toy soldiers. Religious discusions, unless on the fictitious religions of 40k have no place here and that type of bigotry should not seep into these discussions.

Replace Plasma with Battlecannons and what have you. My point is that Black Library's portrayal of Marines can come off as... well, fan spank.

Not saying that you or any one in particular is guilty of this. It's just what I'm getting from a lot of their novels and perhaps that's why Space Marine fanboys are disliked by some: Their favorite faction is backed up by books telling them how great their faction is.

40K is very difficult to get specific comparisons on a consistent basis and this is where a lot of arguments arise from.

 Melissia wrote:
There's a difference between being a fan and being a rabid fanboy. The former is usually not looked down upon. The latter usually is.

Looks like the thread should have ended after this post.

 Medium of Death wrote:
40K is very difficult to get specific comparisons on a consistent basis and this is where a lot of arguments arise from.

 Melissia wrote:
There's a difference between being a fan and being a rabid fanboy. The former is usually not looked down upon. The latter usually is.

Looks like the thread should have ended after this post.

And miss all the drama! And the funny part is that the persons who are so extremely vocal against fanboys show signs of fanboyism themselves .

And the truth of the matter is the bad guy is mostly more interesting than the good guy. you see that in movies, books and even wrestling.
Ultra marines get the most flak because they are so one dimensional, flawed chapters get more respect because of their dark secrets.

I won't even try and pretend I'm not a Sisters fangirl. ^^;

Generally they are portrayed as the quote on quote intelligent faction, but the they due stupid crap like take a planet or an army with around 100 dudes. I mean come on, the original rambo had better balance than sm. That and they get all the attention.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Right, such as with "Hurr hurr, your silly plasma does nothing to my power armor!"

Yeah, damn those SoB and their PA, agree completely.

It's still silly as all get out. Space Marines have several counters and Plasma is a notable one. Then you get some authors saying "Nope, Plasma doesn't do anything to Space Marines". It feels like kids play fighting and one kid telling another that his attacks don't affect him for contrived reasons.

Heck even CSM get dinked down by Plasma.

I think there was a novel where a Space Marine survived tanking a few melta shots...Whereas our Special Character Huron tanked a few..and ended up losing more then 3/4ths of his body, had to be repaired extensively with bionics, and was worked on by a few people who actively stitched together corpses and biotics and knew quite a bit about keeping people alive past certain death.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Right, such as with "Hurr hurr, your silly plasma does nothing to my power armor!"

Yeah, damn those SoB and their PA, agree completely.

It's still silly as all get out. Space Marines have several counters and Plasma is a notable one. Then you get some authors saying "Nope, Plasma doesn't do anything to Space Marines". It feels like kids play fighting and one kid telling another that his attacks don't affect him for contrived reasons.

Heck even CSM get dinked down by Plasma.

I think there was a novel where a Space Marine survived tanking a few melta shots...Whereas our Special Character Huron tanked a few..and ended up losing more then 3/4ths of his body, had to be repaired extensively with bionics, and was worked on by a few people who actively stitched together corpses and biotics and knew quite a bit about keeping people alive past certain death.

I believe Huron took a single melta shot from a Star Phantoms SM captain but I haven't read much about him so I may be wrong.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Right, such as with "Hurr hurr, your silly plasma does nothing to my power armor!"

Yeah, damn those SoB and their PA, agree completely.

It's still silly as all get out. Space Marines have several counters and Plasma is a notable one. Then you get some authors saying "Nope, Plasma doesn't do anything to Space Marines". It feels like kids play fighting and one kid telling another that his attacks don't affect him for contrived reasons.

Heck even CSM get dinked down by Plasma.

I think there was a novel where a Space Marine survived tanking a few melta shots...Whereas our Special Character Huron tanked a few..and ended up losing more then 3/4ths of his body, had to be repaired extensively with bionics, and was worked on by a few people who actively stitched together corpses and biotics and knew quite a bit about keeping people alive past certain death.

I believe Huron took a single melta shot from a Star Phantoms SM captain but I haven't read much about him so I may be wrong.

Yeah Lufgt Huron tanked One Melta shot, and as said required near full body biotics to stay alive.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Right, such as with "Hurr hurr, your silly plasma does nothing to my power armor!"

Yeah, damn those SoB and their PA, agree completely.

It's still silly as all get out. Space Marines have several counters and Plasma is a notable one. Then you get some authors saying "Nope, Plasma doesn't do anything to Space Marines". It feels like kids play fighting and one kid telling another that his attacks don't affect him for contrived reasons.

Heck even CSM get dinked down by Plasma.

I think there was a novel where a Space Marine survived tanking a few melta shots...Whereas our Special Character Huron tanked a few..and ended up losing more then 3/4ths of his body, had to be repaired extensively with bionics, and was worked on by a few people who actively stitched together corpses and biotics and knew quite a bit about keeping people alive past certain death.

I believe Huron took a single melta shot from a Star Phantoms SM captain but I haven't read much about him so I may be wrong.

Yeah Lufgt Huron tanked One Melta shot, and as said required near full body biotics to stay alive.

He also needs to be constantly repaired by apothecaries on a regular basis or he ends up paralyzed and drools.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Right, such as with "Hurr hurr, your silly plasma does nothing to my power armor!"

Yeah, damn those SoB and their PA, agree completely.

It's still silly as all get out. Space Marines have several counters and Plasma is a notable one. Then you get some authors saying "Nope, Plasma doesn't do anything to Space Marines". It feels like kids play fighting and one kid telling another that his attacks don't affect him for contrived reasons.

Heck even CSM get dinked down by Plasma.

I think there was a novel where a Space Marine survived tanking a few melta shots...Whereas our Special Character Huron tanked a few..and ended up losing more then 3/4ths of his body, had to be repaired extensively with bionics, and was worked on by a few people who actively stitched together corpses and biotics and knew quite a bit about keeping people alive past certain death.

I believe Huron took a single melta shot from a Star Phantoms SM captain but I haven't read much about him so I may be wrong.

Yeah Lufgt Huron tanked One Melta shot, and as said required near full body biotics to stay alive.

He also needs to be constantly repaired by apothecaries on a regular basis or he ends up paralyzed and drools.

That brings up an interesting question, when a space marine drools does his acid spit corrode his face?

Aren't the glands activated by choice? Meaning they choose when to use acid.

Yes, their drool would actually be very hot by nature but they choose to use the acid glands

Well at least the inside of the Marine's mouth would have to be rendered immune to their own acid. Otherwise using it would be a very painful and rather futile experience (if this stuff can melt metal I imagine human tissue wouldn't last very long). I'd guess the people who designed the gene-seed would be smart enough to reinforce the rest of the skin just in case. Spitting mishaps are known to happen.

This actually gets into the reason I'm not such a big fan of the Space Marines. All those organs and extra implants. I mean most of them are pretty cool and I like the fact they are included in genetically modified super soldiers (the one where they don't need to sleep, the one where they can survive vacuum exposure) but a couple are just so over the top and stupid (in my opinion) that it ruins them for me. seriously, every space marine can spit acid and learn people's memories by eating their brain? Really Games Workshop? You mean to tell me that amongst the constant monastic discipline and combat training that would make a Navy SEAL break down and cry we make room for... spitting lessons?

 dementedwombat wrote:
Well at least the inside of the Marine's mouth would have to be rendered immune to their own acid. Otherwise using it would be a very painful and rather futile experience (if this stuff can melt metal I imagine human tissue wouldn't last very long). I'd guess the people who designed the gene-seed would be smart enough to reinforce the rest of the skin just in case. Spitting mishaps are known to happen.

This actually gets into the reason I'm not such a big fan of the Space Marines. All those organs and extra implants. I mean most of them are pretty cool and I like the fact they are included in genetically modified super soldiers (the one where they don't need to sleep, the one where they can survive vacuum exposure) but a couple are just so over the top and stupid (in my opinion) that it ruins them for me. seriously, every space marine can spit acid and learn people's memories by eating their brain? Really Games Workshop? You mean to tell me that amongst the constant monastic discipline and combat training that would make a Navy SEAL break down and cry we make room for... spitting lessons?

To be fair, it used to be believed around the early 00's IIRC that RNA could store memories, and that flatworms could eat another flatworm and digest its memories and assimilate them. So it wasn't too outlandish of an idea that Astartes could learn how to pilot something by eating the mind of somebody with sufficiently advanced bio-engineering around 18,000 years in the future.

Although now that flatworm "theory" is bunk.

pm713 wrote:
Aren't the glands activated by choice? Meaning they choose when to use acid.

Yes. Otherwise Imperial Guard commanders would take many friendly fire casualties from Marines who enunciate too enthusiastically whilst giving orders.

Also, despite the frequent talk of acid spit, most Geneseed actually doesn't support that ability any more. I believe only the Imperial Fists actually retain that ability. In addition, it's a binary process - the Betcher's Gland is actually two separate glands that produce chemicals that combine upon contact with air to produce a corrosive substance. The default spit attack of a Space Marine is similar to that of a Spitting Cobra - harmless unless it gets into an open wound or an unprotected mucus membrane.

The Brothers of the Snake have a mutated Betcher's Gland that somehow links with their Oolotic Kidney to extract toxins from their bloodstream and channel them to the Betcher's Gland, allowing them to effectively use any kind of poison they can get their hands on in a spit attack.

Doombunny wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Aren't the glands activated by choice? Meaning they choose when to use acid.

Yes. Otherwise Imperial Guard commanders would take many friendly fire casualties from Marines who enunciate too enthusiastically whilst giving orders.

Marines can't give orders to the Imperial Guard, the Marines aren't in their chain of command since the breakup of the Legions, barring some decidedly curious non-codex situations like the Ultramarines having their own mini-empire and acting as Imperial Commanders as well.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Also, despite the frequent talk of acid spit, most Geneseed actually doesn't support that ability any more. I believe only the Imperial Fists actually retain that ability. In addition

I thought the IF's in particular lost it?

In practical terms, the Marines take control of Guard regiments all the time though.

And yes, you're right, the Fists have lost it. I don't know who keeps it then, but I know its more common to have lost it than not.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
In practical terms, the Marines take control of Guard regiments all the time though.

And yes, you're right, the Fists have lost it. I don't know who keeps it then, but I know its more common to have lost it than not.

Actually, a lot of SM chapters still retain the abililty. The IF's have lost the genetic code but as far as everyone else they're fine.

But if you have a source to backup your claim I'll accept it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Doombunny wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Aren't the glands activated by choice? Meaning they choose when to use acid.

Yes. Otherwise Imperial Guard commanders would take many friendly fire casualties from Marines who enunciate too enthusiastically whilst giving orders.

Marines can't give orders to the Imperial Guard, the Marines aren't in their chain of command since the breakup of the Legions, barring some decidedly curious non-codex situations like the Ultramarines having their own mini-empire and acting as Imperial Commanders as well.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Also, despite the frequent talk of acid spit, most Geneseed actually doesn't support that ability any more. I believe only the Imperial Fists actually retain that ability. In addition

I thought the IF's in particular lost it?

Actually, yes, SM's take command over IG all the time. Look at Marneus, his very appearance demands the respect and recognition as a commanding officer in almost every scenario he's placed.

In the heat of battle, things look different. An IG captain can command an entire SM squad though in most cases that IG captain will draw upon the SM sergeants combat knowledge since he's been fighting the enemies of the Imperium before he was even born.

In the case that an IG captain and a SM captain find themselves together, Adeptus Astartes almost always cancel the other out.

In prolonged campaigns where there will be multiple SM chapters and several IG regiments and commanders, the adminastratum will analyze the combat records of all the present leaders and select who is tasked to lead the campaign. Normally, Marneus Calgar always wins that hehe

 Ashiraya wrote:
I see lots of complaints aimed at SM fangirls/boys all over the place. It is very stigmatised.

On the other hand, as I noticed over in the 'Can-SM-take-a-planet' thread, IG fanboys and so on are just as extreme.

Why has this escaped stigma?

Try to follow rule #1 in this, please. I want to analyse the situation and debate the cause and so on, not point fingers and throw insults.

Because non-Marine players are jealous of Marines. That's the only reason.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I see lots of complaints aimed at SM fangirls/boys all over the place. It is very stigmatised.

On the other hand, as I noticed over in the 'Can-SM-take-a-planet' thread, IG fanboys and so on are just as extreme.

Why has this escaped stigma?

Try to follow rule #1 in this, please. I want to analyse the situation and debate the cause and so on, not point fingers and throw insults.

Because non-Marine players are jealous of Marines. That's the only reason.

Yup

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Not until you read Black Library bolter-porn that is. Then you'll see why people think that Games Workshop make Space Marines out to be the best there ever was. I don't know if such novels are in the majority but they sure speak the loudest on this forum.

Yet Gaunt's Ghosts, a guardsman book, has a Marine dying like an ostrich to a single shot from a Guardsman's lasgun. Yet Marine fans complain far less often about this than any random Marine exploit in some novel. It seems the Marine fanboys are the more mature.

It's possible that a marine can die from a single lasgun shot. It's very, very, very unlikely, though. Is that presented as the norm? If so, I would call BS on that too as much as I would a marine "tanking" a battle cannon round.

You also have to consider that instances where Marines die like chumps is a very rare occurrence in Black Library fiction compared to all the instances where they laugh off their enemies most powerful firepower. I believe. So, because that portrayal of Marines is more represented it makes more sense that it gets more complaints. If the reverse was true you would have Marine players complaining and rightly so.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I see lots of complaints aimed at SM fangirls/boys all over the place. It is very stigmatised.

On the other hand, as I noticed over in the 'Can-SM-take-a-planet' thread, IG fanboys and so on are just as extreme.

Why has this escaped stigma?

Try to follow rule #1 in this, please. I want to analyse the situation and debate the cause and so on, not point fingers and throw insults.

Because non-Marine players are jealous of Marines. That's the only reason.

Yup

Nope. Because some raving marine fanboys will, in my experience, get stroppy when they lose because "that's not how it would happen in the fluff!"

Actually, yes, if a squad of 10 marines tried running over open ground at a unit of Crisis suits packing plasma and supported by pathfinders then they would all be killed to a man.

And yes, your librarian in terminator armour standing on his own would be turned into a fine, red mist when three solid shot railguns punched through his chest.

Basically the fluff has given marines ridiculous amounts of plot armour that cannot be replicated on the tabletop without breaking the game. This results in some (not, by any stretch, all) marine fans crying that the tabletop game is not an accurate representation of the fluff when in fact it is the fluff that is not accurate due to author bias. They're fine with Bolters cutting down swathes of power armoured chaos marines but apparently their power armour should be capable of shrugging off dedicated anti-armour weaponry.

These kind of interactions tend to stick in the mind a bit more than the times when you had a cool discussion with the marine player about the pros and cons of power armour, teminator armour and the XV8 battlesuit.

Most other armies don't have that kind of protection. Their standard soldiers are never portrayed as invincible, their elite soldiers are very rarely portrayed as invincible. This means that players of those armies typically have a bit less of the plot armour expectation.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Actually, yes, SM's take command over IG all the time. Look at Marneus, his very appearance demands the respect and recognition as a commanding officer in almost every scenario he's placed.

As I noted, he has a position as an Imperial Commander that most SM's lack (which is curious given that it was Calgar that cleaved the SM's from the IG in the first place...) which *does* mean he has a place in the IG command structure.

In the heat of battle, things look different. An IG captain can command an entire SM squad though in most cases that IG captain will draw upon the SM sergeants combat knowledge since he's been fighting the enemies of the Imperium before he was even born.

...maaaaybe? Not all SM's are ancient centuries old warriors. Hell, if a chapter is losing more than a few SM's a year they'll be extinct in a couple of decades. Let's not forget that many Imperial officers have decades of experience themselves. The IG captain may take their advice into consideration, but probably not take direct orders, especially as the SM sergeant probably has little if any experience in commanding larger formations like platoons, companies, or battalions.

In the case that an IG captain and a SM captain find themselves together, Adeptus Astartes almost always cancel the other out.

What do you mean by "cancel out"?

In prolonged campaigns where there will be multiple SM chapters and several IG regiments and commanders, the adminastratum will analyze the combat records of all the present leaders and select who is tasked to lead the campaign. Normally, Marneus Calgar always wins that hehe

Again, he has special status being an Imperial Commander who would be entitled to command PDF and IG forces.

Otherwise SM's need to be given permission to give orders to the IG, and IG forces need to be ordered to recognize orders from SM's. Sometimes does happen, but the SM's can't just show up and start issuing orders if the IG doesn't want to take them after the Horus Heresy.

 Peregrine wrote:
stories about space marines are the equivalent of real-world religious myths. They are, at best, based very loosely on real events that have been wildly exaggerated to make a more impressive myth. But yet, in their respective universes, they are both considered literal truth by the people who believe in those religions. Understanding this is key to understanding how space marine fluff works.

Do you have a single fact to back that up?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It's possible that a marine can die from a single lasgun shot. It's very, very, very unlikely, though. Is that presented as the norm?

By some people, yeah.

You also have to consider that instances where Marines die like chumps is a very rare occurrence in Black Library fiction compared to all the instances where they laugh off their enemies most powerful firepower. I believe. So, because that portrayal of Marines is more represented it makes more sense that it gets more complaints. If the reverse was true you would have Marine players complaining and rightly so.

Is it though?

In Horus Rising, a Marine is killed by a single bolter round through the chestplate.

In Pariah, Eisenhorn easily cuts down three Marines, and in one of the Ravenor short stories Eisenhorn cuts a dreadnought in half.

In fact, if you want to see Marines dying in silly ways, just read Dan Abnett's work.

 Vaktathi wrote:

In prolonged campaigns where there will be multiple SM chapters and several IG regiments and commanders, the adminastratum will analyze the combat records of all the present leaders and select who is tasked to lead the campaign. Normally, Marneus Calgar always wins that hehe

Again, he has special status being an Imperial Commander who would be entitled to command PDF and IG forces.

Otherwise SM's need to be given permission to give orders to the IG, and IG forces need to be ordered to recognize orders from SM's. Sometimes does happen, but the SM's can't just show up and start issuing orders if the IG doesn't want to take them after the Horus Heresy.

Don't a lot of IG not know of the traitor legions? Pretty sure it's a secret that some legions went rogue as it would destroy morale and the legend of marines all being saviours and completely loyal. It's a "need-to-know" kind of thing.

So if Space Marines could turn up and give orders, no questions asked, then there wouldn't be anything to stop one of the less mutated/psychotic traitor warbands/legions showing up and commandeering an IG battalion.

Without context I cannot really comment on that but that is a bit silly. I am still firm in my belief that "Marines are OP Badasses" is more of the norm, though.

 Psienesis wrote:
Generally because GW/BL denigrates all other factions in order to make the Space Marines seem special. Sometimes very blatantly and badly so.

Right, compared to when Imhotek embarrassed the chapter master of one of the most martial combat-centered chapters in the Imperium in martial combat.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I see lots of complaints aimed at SM fangirls/boys all over the place. It is very stigmatised.

On the other hand, as I noticed over in the 'Can-SM-take-a-planet' thread, IG fanboys and so on are just as extreme.

Why has this escaped stigma?

Try to follow rule #1 in this, please. I want to analyse the situation and debate the cause and so on, not point fingers and throw insults.

Because non-Marine players are jealous of Marines. That's the only reason.

Yup

Nope. Because some raving marine fanboys will, in my experience, get stroppy when they lose because "that's not how it would happen in the fluff!"

Actually, yes, if a squad of 10 marines tried running over open ground at a unit of Crisis suits packing plasma and supported by pathfinders then they would all be killed to a man.

And yes, your librarian in terminator armour standing on his own would be turned into a fine, red mist when three solid shot railguns punched through his chest.

Basically the fluff has given marines ridiculous amounts of plot armour that cannot be replicated on the tabletop without breaking the game. This results in some (not, by any stretch, all) marine fans crying that the tabletop game is not an accurate representation of the fluff when in fact it is the fluff that is not accurate due to author bias. They're fine with Bolters cutting down swathes of power armoured chaos marines but apparently their power armour should be capable of shrugging off dedicated anti-armour weaponry.

Most other armies don't have that kind of protection. Their standard soldiers are never portrayed as invincible, their elite soldiers are very rarely portrayed as invincible. This means that players of those armies typically have a bit less of the plot armour expectation.

These kind of interactions tend to stick in the mind a bit more than the times when you had a cool discussion with the marine player about the pros and cons of power armour, teminator armour and the XV8 battlesuit.

Haha, marines can die so easy in certain instances. Like you said, a terminator can easily be vaped by a railgun. A terminator can also be killed by a Tyranid warrior despite what some of my friends say. A marine can be shot dead by Tau pulse rifles too, all the time actually. Its how it is.

However, I just don't think its possible for cavemen to beat a SM to death with clubs as some morons claim on another thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I hate plot armour. Hate it. How do SM's slaughter CSM's and lose far less men? Ridiculous.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Don't a lot of IG not know of the traitor legions? Pretty sure it's a secret that some legions went rogue as it would destroy morale and the legend of marines all being saviours and completely loyal. It's a "need-to-know" kind of thing.

So if Space Marines could turn up and give orders, no questions asked, then there wouldn't be anything to stop one of the less mutated/psychotic traitor warbands/legions showing up and commandeering an IG battalion.

While true that most IG troops wouldn't know anything of the Heresy, it's not necessarily relevant. The breakup of the Legions also cleaved their command from the Imperial Army as it too was split into the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy. Before that the SM's directly commanded Imperial Army units. After the Codex Astartes was imposed on the Space Marines, they no longer had authority over the Imperial Guard or the Imperial Navy.

And tabletop is not meant to be accurate, its suppose to be a fun friendly game. Any marine player crying about a tactical marine not being able to massacre 300 tyranid hormagaunts need to have reality check. Get a video game for that, tyranid players arent gonna set up hundreds of hundreds of models to be removed as soon as they move 6 inches

However, I just don't think its possible for cavemen to beat a SM to death with clubs as some morons claim on another thread.

Take that up with Dan Abnett. A troop of 5 CSM were killed by Gaunt and a handful of his troops, and a tribe of naked savages with primitive bows and arrows.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Not until you read Black Library bolter-porn that is. Then you'll see why people think that Games Workshop make Space Marines out to be the best there ever was. I don't know if such novels are in the majority but they sure speak the loudest on this forum.

Yet Gaunt's Ghosts, a guardsman book, has a Marine dying like an ostrich to a single shot from a Guardsman's lasgun. Yet Marine fans complain far less often about this than any random Marine exploit in some novel. It seems the Marine fanboys are the more mature.

Also it should be noted that in that book, that CSM was also shot full of a feth ton of poison that was designed to kill marines, survived and got beat up in melee as well IIRC before he finally died to a hotshot.

(And I recall the Ghost's hotshots to be some super special type on top of that.)

The poison was not designed to kill Marines. The tribesmen had always lived there, and had never previously encountered a Space Marine. It was just a particularly-potent poison.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Most other armies don't have that kind of protection. Their standard soldiers are never portrayed as invincible, their elite soldiers are very rarely portrayed as invincible. This means that players of those armies typically have a bit less of the plot armour expectation.

Ciaphas Cain shows up Khornate Berzerkers in martial combat.

He has plot armour that would humble Roboute Guilliman.

 Psienesis wrote:
The poison was not designed to kill Marines. The tribesmen had always lived there, and had never previously encountered a Space Marine. It was just a particularly-potent poison.

-shrug-

Still evens out. I always find it funny how people say "he was felled by a lasgun" while in reality the poor bastard got fethed up fairly good, the lasgun was just the finish.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Yet Gaunt's Ghosts, a guardsman book, has a Marine dying like an ostrich to a single shot from a Guardsman's lasgun. Yet Marine fans complain far less often about this than any random Marine exploit in some novel. It seems the Marine fanboys are the more mature.

Which book was this in?

 Wyzilla wrote:

Yet Gaunt's Ghosts, a guardsman book, has a Marine dying like an ostrich to a single shot from a Guardsman's lasgun. Yet Marine fans complain far less often about this than any random Marine exploit in some novel. It seems the Marine fanboys are the more mature.

Also it should be noted that in that book, that CSM was also shot full of a feth ton of poison that was designed to kill marines, survived and got beat up in melee as well IIRC before he finally died to a hotshot.

(And I recall the Ghost's hotshots to be some super special type on top of that.)

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Actually, yes, SM's take command over IG all the time. Look at Marneus, his very appearance demands the respect and recognition as a commanding officer in almost every scenario he's placed.

As I noted, he has a position as an Imperial Commander that most SM's lack (which is curious given that it was Calgar that cleaved the SM's from the IG in the first place...) which *does* mean he has a place in the IG command structure.

In the heat of battle, things look different. An IG captain can command an entire SM squad though in most cases that IG captain will draw upon the SM sergeants combat knowledge since he's been fighting the enemies of the Imperium before he was even born.

...maaaaybe? Not all SM's are ancient centuries old warriors. Hell, if a chapter is losing more than a few SM's a year they'll be extinct in a couple of decades. Let's not forget that many Imperial officers have decades of experience themselves. The IG captain may take their advice into consideration, but probably not take direct orders, especially as the SM sergeant probably has little if any experience in commanding larger formations like platoons, companies, or battalions.

In the case that an IG captain and a SM captain find themselves together, Adeptus Astartes almost always cancel the other out.

What do you mean by "cancel out"?

In prolonged campaigns where there will be multiple SM chapters and several IG regiments and commanders, the adminastratum will analyze the combat records of all the present leaders and select who is tasked to lead the campaign. Normally, Marneus Calgar always wins that hehe

Again, he has special status being an Imperial Commander who would be entitled to command PDF and IG forces.

Otherwise SM's need to be given permission to give orders to the IG, and IG forces need to be ordered to recognize orders from SM's. Sometimes does happen, but the SM's can't just show up and start issuing orders if the IG doesn't want to take them after the Horus Heresy.

A SM sergeant cannot instruct or order an IG captain. I just said the captain will take advantage of the SM sergeant standing at his side and pick his brain. A SM sergeant will allow the captain to command his men and direct formations.

By cancel out I mean a SM captain will have leadership over a guard captain.

Doombunny wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Yet Gaunt's Ghosts, a guardsman book, has a Marine dying like an ostrich to a single shot from a Guardsman's lasgun. Yet Marine fans complain far less often about this than any random Marine exploit in some novel. It seems the Marine fanboys are the more mature.

Which book was this in?

Literally the first one. The Marine not wearing a helmet (Naturally), and having his head blown off by a guy who turned his lasgun's power up all the way.

Now, this would probably happen in the fluff (A high-powered lasgun killing a helmet-less marine), but it's a contrived scenario designed to give the Imperial Guard superiority. Bringing Marines down to the level of big mooks.

 Psienesis wrote:

However, I just don't think its possible for cavemen to beat a SM to death with clubs as some morons claim on another thread.

Take that up with Dan Abnett. A troop of 5 CSM were killed by Gaunt and a handful of his troops, and a tribe of naked savages with primitive bows and arrows.

Uhhh...umm, just a bit speechless atm

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Most other armies don't have that kind of protection. Their standard soldiers are never portrayed as invincible, their elite soldiers are very rarely portrayed as invincible. This means that players of those armies typically have a bit less of the plot armour expectation.

Ciaphas Cain shows up Khornate Berzerkers in martial combat.

He has plot armour that would humble Roboute Guilliman.

Ciaphas Cain fought a single chaos berzerker in combat and didn't show it up. He managed to survive until Jurgen put a Melta shot into it.

Cain was a brilliant swordsman. Would you say that an Inquisitor should not be able to fight a single Berzerker in close combat? Because Amberley Vail described Cain as an exceptional swordsman. Not an exceptional swordsman for an imperial guard officer, but flat out exceptional.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Most other armies don't have that kind of protection. Their standard soldiers are never portrayed as invincible, their elite soldiers are very rarely portrayed as invincible. This means that players of those armies typically have a bit less of the plot armour expectation.

Ciaphas Cain shows up Khornate Berzerkers in martial combat.

He has plot armour that would humble Roboute Guilliman.

Ciaphas Cain fought a single chaos berzerker in combat and didn't show it up. He managed to survive until Jurgen put a Melta shot into it.

Cain was a brilliant swordsman. Would you say that an Inquisitor should not be able to fight a single Berzerker in close combat? Because Amberley Vail described Cain as an exceptional swordsman.

Sounds alright. Not like he was slaughtering Berzerkers. I wouldn't be surprised if he had completely killed one.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Doombunny wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Yet Gaunt's Ghosts, a guardsman book, has a Marine dying like an ostrich to a single shot from a Guardsman's lasgun. Yet Marine fans complain far less often about this than any random Marine exploit in some novel. It seems the Marine fanboys are the more mature.

Which book was this in?

Literally the first one. The Marine not wearing a helmet (Naturally), and having his head blown off by a guy who turned his lasgun's power up all the way.

Now, this would probably happen in the fluff (A high-powered lasgun killing a helmet-less marine), but it's a contrived scenario designed to give the Imperial Guard superiority. Bringing Marines down to the level of big mooks.

The Marines not wearing helmets is incredibly stupid, but it isn't just limited to 'anti-Marine' fluff. Lots of fluff has Marines helmetless, for some reason or another. A lot of the models also lack helmets. I wouldn't say it was specially contrived to kill to Marine.

I seem to recall Marines being generally rather hard to kill in Gaunt's Ghosts. IIRC the few that do get brought down are killed by either massed firepower or powerful weaponry. Like getting a sack of demo charges detonated around their neck, or being sliced with a power sword.

Eisenhorn gets his ass handed to him by some Slaaneshi Marine, and wins only when the guy gets mind-jumped by a Chaos relic.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

A SM sergeant cannot instruct or order an IG captain. I just said the captain will take advantage of the SM sergeant standing at his side and pick his brain. A SM sergeant will allow the captain to command his men and direct formations.

yeah he might take advice, but that's what NCO's are for, he'd do the same of his own sergeants as well.

By cancel out I mean a SM captain will have leadership over a guard captain.

Again, not since the Heresy aside from a couple exceptions. The SM's were barred from directly commanding IG forces except in special circumstances since then. That was part of the whole "Imperial army becomes Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, and Space Marine Legions become Chapters" breakup after the heresy when the Codex Astartes was imposed on the Space Marines.

 Psienesis wrote:
Eisenhorn gets his ass handed to him by some Slaaneshi Marine, and wins only when the guy gets mind-jumped by a Chaos relic.

When he was still green, yeah.

Old man Eisenhorn cuts through Marines like a hot knife through butter.

I don't really have a problem with this, but the claims of SM favoritism in the fluff ignore all the times they are killed off to show how cool someone else is.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Most other armies don't have that kind of protection. Their standard soldiers are never portrayed as invincible, their elite soldiers are very rarely portrayed as invincible. This means that players of those armies typically have a bit less of the plot armour expectation.

Ciaphas Cain shows up Khornate Berzerkers in martial combat.

He has plot armour that would humble Roboute Guilliman.

Ciaphas Cain fought a single chaos berzerker in combat and didn't show it up. He managed to survive until Jurgen put a Melta shot into it.

Cain was a brilliant swordsman. Would you say that an Inquisitor should not be able to fight a single Berzerker in close combat? Because Amberley Vail described Cain as an exceptional swordsman. Not an exceptional swordsman for an imperial guard officer, but flat out exceptional.

It should also be noted that Cain wears more plot armor than the Ultramarines, to the point that he might as well be wearing the Ultramarines themselves.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Ciaphas Cain fought a single chaos berzerker in combat and didn't show it up. He managed to survive until Jurgen put a Melta shot into it.

Cain was a brilliant swordsman. Would you say that an Inquisitor should not be able to fight a single Berzerker in close combat? Because Amberley Vail described Cain as an exceptional swordsman. Not an exceptional swordsman for an imperial guard officer, but flat out exceptional.

That's not the story I've heard.

Probably not most inquisitors, no. In 40k though it's certainly possible, because 40k humans run on charles atlas superpower. It's the same reason Harker can strangle a Ravener with his bare hands.

Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

However, I just don't think its possible for cavemen to beat a SM to death with clubs as some morons claim on another thread.

Take that up with Dan Abnett. A troop of 5 CSM were killed by Gaunt and a handful of his troops, and a tribe of naked savages with primitive bows and arrows.

Uhhh...umm, just a bit speechless atm

What people fail to mention when discussing this incident is that the "naked savages with primitive bows" were actually wielding Reynbows - which are stated to be magnetic induction weapons.

Despite the traction that the primitive bows argument has, the Nitegane aren't actually that primitive. Other magnetic induction weapons in the setting include Needlers... and railguns.

Most major characters are layered in so much plot armor that it becomes absolutely ridiculous. Cain, in particular, is so over-the-top it causes me to think tales of his exploits are nothing more than Imperial propaganda, and that, in-universe, there is no such person as Ciaphas Cain. He's a caricature dreamt up by some Imperial Guard Officer of Propaganda and Psychological Warfare.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

A SM sergeant cannot instruct or order an IG captain. I just said the captain will take advantage of the SM sergeant standing at his side and pick his brain. A SM sergeant will allow the captain to command his men and direct formations.

yeah he might take advice, but that's what NCO's are for, he'd do the same of his own sergeants as well.

By cancel out I mean a SM captain will have leadership over a guard captain.

Again, not since the Heresy aside from a couple exceptions. The SM's were barred from directly commanding IG forces except in special circumstances since then. That was part of the whole "Imperial army becomes Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, and Space Marine Legions become Chapters" breakup after the heresy when the Codex Astartes was imposed on the Space Marines.

Higher ranking SM's can surely command IG. Keep in mind the heresy is on "hush hush" and most people are completelg unaware such events occured.

What people fail to mention when discussing this incident is that the "naked savages with primitive bows" were actually wielding Reynbows - which are stated to be magnetic induction weapons.

Not all of them, just some of them. The tribals possessed some archaeotech relics (as Eszrah had) but not every single tribal was so armed.

It should also be noted that the CSM killed them in droves, too.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

A SM sergeant cannot instruct or order an IG captain. I just said the captain will take advantage of the SM sergeant standing at his side and pick his brain. A SM sergeant will allow the captain to command his men and direct formations.

yeah he might take advice, but that's what NCO's are for, he'd do the same of his own sergeants as well.

By cancel out I mean a SM captain will have leadership over a guard captain.

Again, not since the Heresy aside from a couple exceptions. The SM's were barred from directly commanding IG forces except in special circumstances since then. That was part of the whole "Imperial army becomes Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, and Space Marine Legions become Chapters" breakup after the heresy when the Codex Astartes was imposed on the Space Marines.

Higher ranking SM's can surely command IG. Keep in mind the heresy is on "hush hush" and most people are completelg unaware such events occured.

Hence why IG chain of command would have strict rules about when Space Marines can give orders to Guard officers.

Otherwise you end up with the situation of Abaddon turning up at some IG bases and commandeering whole IG regiments who follow him no questions asked as he's a space marine.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

However, I just don't think its possible for cavemen to beat a SM to death with clubs as some morons claim on another thread.

Take that up with Dan Abnett. A troop of 5 CSM were killed by Gaunt and a handful of his troops, and a tribe of naked savages with primitive bows and arrows.

Uhhh...umm, just a bit speechless atm

What people fail to mention when discussing this incident is that the "naked savages with primitive bows" were actually wielding Reynbows - which are stated to be magnetic induction weapons.

Despite the traction that the primitive bows argument has, the Nitegane aren't actually that primitive. Other magnetic induction weapons in the setting include Needlers... and railguns.

Well, I'm going to have to read that book to fully understand what's being talked about but I am sure these people must not have bee as primitive as usual.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

A SM sergeant cannot instruct or order an IG captain. I just said the captain will take advantage of the SM sergeant standing at his side and pick his brain. A SM sergeant will allow the captain to command his men and direct formations.

yeah he might take advice, but that's what NCO's are for, he'd do the same of his own sergeants as well.

By cancel out I mean a SM captain will have leadership over a guard captain.

Again, not since the Heresy aside from a couple exceptions. The SM's were barred from directly commanding IG forces except in special circumstances since then. That was part of the whole "Imperial army becomes Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, and Space Marine Legions become Chapters" breakup after the heresy when the Codex Astartes was imposed on the Space Marines.

Higher ranking SM's can surely command IG. Keep in mind the heresy is on "hush hush" and most people are completelg unaware such events occured.

Most IG soldiers will follow the orders of a SM because the SM is the great-grandson of the God-Emperor Himself. This is not to say that the SM has a place in the IG's chain-of-command. However, Space Marines do not automatically take command of all Imperial military forces in a theater of operations. The top-brass of the IG, Navy and other Imperial factions may elect to appoint a given Space Marine (most likely a Chapter Master, if present) as overall commander, given that he has centuries of experience and study on the nature of war... but this is not a guarantee, nor is it automatically done.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

A SM sergeant cannot instruct or order an IG captain. I just said the captain will take advantage of the SM sergeant standing at his side and pick his brain. A SM sergeant will allow the captain to command his men and direct formations.

yeah he might take advice, but that's what NCO's are for, he'd do the same of his own sergeants as well.

By cancel out I mean a SM captain will have leadership over a guard captain.

Again, not since the Heresy aside from a couple exceptions. The SM's were barred from directly commanding IG forces except in special circumstances since then. That was part of the whole "Imperial army becomes Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, and Space Marine Legions become Chapters" breakup after the heresy when the Codex Astartes was imposed on the Space Marines.

Higher ranking SM's can surely command IG. Keep in mind the heresy is on "hush hush" and most people are completelg unaware such events occured.

Hence why IG chain of command would have strict rules about when Space Marines can give orders to Guard officers.

Otherwise you end up with the situation of Abaddon turning up at some IG bases and commandeering whole IG regiments who follow him no questions asked as he's a space marine.

I didn't say any SM could walk up to a IG base and take immediate command.

It would have been impossible for Abaddon to do such a thing as he would have to present his rank and Chapter, which he cannot do because he belongs to no chapter.

Psienesis wrote:Most major characters are layered in so much plot armor that it becomes absolutely ridiculous. Cain, in particular, is so over-the-top it causes me to think tales of his exploits are nothing more than Imperial propaganda, and that, in-universe, there is no such person as Ciaphas Cain. He's a caricature dreamt up by some Imperial Guard Officer of Propaganda and Psychological Warfare.

Oh... snap.

Lord Tarkin wrote:
Higher ranking SM's can surely command IG. Keep in mind the heresy is on "hush hush" and most people are completely unaware such events occurred.

You seem to be confusing what the Imperial law says with what actually happens.

Space Marines are not allowed to commandeer Imperial Guard armies under the edicts of the High Lords of Terra. Most books show this quite accurately.

Often, however, less protagonistic Imperial Guard commanders will see the Space Marine throwing his weight around and order their men: "Yeah, listen to the Astartes. He has no legal right to command us, but do you want to argue with him?"

 Psienesis wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

A SM sergeant cannot instruct or order an IG captain. I just said the captain will take advantage of the SM sergeant standing at his side and pick his brain. A SM sergeant will allow the captain to command his men and direct formations.

yeah he might take advice, but that's what NCO's are for, he'd do the same of his own sergeants as well.

By cancel out I mean a SM captain will have leadership over a guard captain.

Again, not since the Heresy aside from a couple exceptions. The SM's were barred from directly commanding IG forces except in special circumstances since then. That was part of the whole "Imperial army becomes Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, and Space Marine Legions become Chapters" breakup after the heresy when the Codex Astartes was imposed on the Space Marines.

Higher ranking SM's can surely command IG. Keep in mind the heresy is on "hush hush" and most people are completelg unaware such events occured.

Most IG soldiers will follow the orders of a SM because the SM is the great-grandson of the God-Emperor Himself. This is not to say that the SM has a place in the IG's chain-of-command. However, Space Marines do not automatically take command of all Imperial military forces in a theater of operations. The top-brass of the IG, Navy and other Imperial factions may elect to appoint a given Space Marine (most likely a Chapter Master, if present) as overall commander, given that he has centuries of experience and study on the nature of war... but this is not a guarantee, nor is it automatically done.

A SM can never to permanent command over IG. It is exactly how you just said it. A SM captain can take temporary command over a guard captain and his men but only until a higher ranking Guardsmen is present.

I read about Uriel Ventris and a guard colonel and though the colonel had command he still followed the command of the 200 year veteran Uriel Ventris. It all depends you know


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

A SM sergeant cannot instruct or order an IG captain. I just said the captain will take advantage of the SM sergeant standing at his side and pick his brain. A SM sergeant will allow the captain to command his men and direct formations.

yeah he might take advice, but that's what NCO's are for, he'd do the same of his own sergeants as well.

By cancel out I mean a SM captain will have leadership over a guard captain.

Again, not since the Heresy aside from a couple exceptions. The SM's were barred from directly commanding IG forces except in special circumstances since then. That was part of the whole "Imperial army becomes Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, and Space Marine Legions become Chapters" breakup after the heresy when the Codex Astartes was imposed on the Space Marines.

Higher ranking SM's can surely command IG. Keep in mind the heresy is on "hush hush" and most people are completelg unaware such events occured.

Most IG soldiers will follow the orders of a SM because the SM is the great-grandson of the God-Emperor Himself. This is not to say that the SM has a place in the IG's chain-of-command. However, Space Marines do not automatically take command of all Imperial military forces in a theater of operations. The top-brass of the IG, Navy and other Imperial factions may elect to appoint a given Space Marine (most likely a Chapter Master, if present) as overall commander, given that he has centuries of experience and study on the nature of war... but this is not a guarantee, nor is it automatically done.

A SM can never take permanent command over IG. It is exactly how you just said it. A SM captain can take temporary command over a guard captain and his men but only until a higher ranking Guardsmen is present.

I read about Uriel Ventris and a guard colonel and though the colonel had command he still followed the command of the 200 year veteran Uriel Ventris. It all depends you know

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Higher ranking SM's can surely command IG.

Again no (unless command is given to the SM's by higher IG command), just as they cannot command the Imperial Navy either, nor can they operate in Legion sized forces. That was all part of the post-heresy reorganizations.

Keep in mind the heresy is on "hush hush" and most people are completelg unaware such events occured.

yes the HH events themselves are hush-hush, the administrative changes made since then are not.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Higher ranking SM's can surely command IG.

Again no (unless command is given to the SM's by higher IG command), just as they cannot command the Imperial Navy either, nor can they operate in Legion sized forces. That was all part of the post-heresy reorganizations.

Keep in mind the heresy is on "hush hush" and most people are completelg unaware such events occured.

yes the HH events themselves are hush-hush, the administrative changes made since then are not.

Alright, lets just agree to disagree. I have a different viewpoint than you and we'll leave it at that.

Well, ok sure, but it simply is a thing that is true.

Space Marines can give orders to their chapter and their thralls. Other Imperial forces, be they Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle, other Space Marine chapters, Rogue Traders, Inquisitorial forces, the Imperial Navy, etc are only at their command if those other forces *choose* to place themselves under their command (or can otherwise be cajoled, threatened, etc).

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Ciaphas Cain shows up Khornate Berzerkers in martial combat.

He has plot armour that would humble Roboute Guilliman.

That is not plot armor. He is just that good. Deal with it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Ciaphas Cain shows up Khornate Berzerkers in martial combat.

He has plot armour that would humble Roboute Guilliman.

That is not plot armor. He is just that good. Deal with it.

Except Cain isn't that good, his entire career is simple luck. It's part of the reason why some people suspect he's an Imperial Saint or something like it.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Space Marines can give orders to their chapter and their thralls. Other Imperial forces, be they Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle, other Space Marine chapters, Rogue Traders, Inquisitorial forces, the Imperial Navy, etc are only at their command if those other forces *choose* to place themselves under their command (or can otherwise be cajoled, threatened, etc).

Far as I've understood it other Imperial forces will happily consult a well-known marine and listen to his suggestions, but marines actually WANTING to command others than their battle-brothers is pretty rare. As the Canoness filing a report on the Flesh Tearers at Armageddon said - with over a century of command experience she wasn't surprised that Chapter Master Seth offered her no counsel, she's used to that from marines.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except Cain isn't that good, his entire career is simple luck. It's part of the reason why some people suspect he's an Imperial Saint or something like it.

I read the books. Well, those I have found anyway, so the 3/4 firsts books in a big omnibus. He is that good. Your brain just cannot comprehend such level of awesomeness and therefore rejects it, pretending for it to be propaganda, or luck, or anything. But he is that good, and even better actually.

Why do I suddenly get urges to marry Void__Dragon?

You got yourself a fangirl, Mr. C'tan. ^____________________________________________________________________________________^

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Ciaphas Cain shows up Khornate Berzerkers in martial combat.

He has plot armour that would humble Roboute Guilliman.

That is not plot armor. He is just that good. Deal with it.

Except Cain isn't that good, his entire career is simple luck. It's part of the reason why some people suspect he's an Imperial Saint or something like it.

Cain is not just lucky. Combat was one of the few things he did actually bother studying as not knowing how to fight is the quickest way to get killed if a fight finds you.

He may be a coward but he also understands that there may be times when he might have to fight to survive and he'd like to keep on living.

Cain-fanboys spotted.

I'm a fan of Cain myself. Great light reading to amuse me between classes. I loved the shier amount of ridiculousness that man could get himself into.

Errr Screw Cain.

FOR CHAOS!

 Ashiraya wrote:
Cain-fanboys spotted.

Cain has no fanboy. Those people that you call fanboys are just people that downplay his abilities a little less than usual .


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Some people think that Cain is a reincarnation of the Emperor. They are wrong. At some point, Cain decided that it would be better for his survival to travel back in time, create a bunch of super-powerful idiots, send them in space, create 20 armies of super-soldiers, conquer the whole galaxy, have half of his idiot primarch rebel, and use that excuse to go into that time traveling+healing machine that brought him back to the 42th millenium.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Errr Screw Cain.

FOR CHAOS!

This. My daily happy reading is more preferred to the the Talos Trilogy and books like it. Reading about Night Lords horribly butchering and terrorizing chapter serfs just brings a smile to my face. Plus well written sociopaths are always interesting.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Errr Screw Cain.

FOR CHAOS!

This. My daily happy reading is more preferred to the the Talos Trilogy and books like it. Reading about Night Lords horribly butchering and terrorizing chapter serfs just brings a smile to my face. Plus well written sociopaths are always interesting.

I agree. LONG LIVE TALOS VALCORAN!

How bout dem 4th company Ultras being slaughtered and pinned to the front of our Rhinos? May Idaeus burn for all eternity, and his decadent brethren.

The internet hates everything that's popular. If Eldar were the best selling 40k army then forums would be full of scorn and derision for these "mary sues" and "elves IN SPESS". But Space Marines are the most popular, so they're labeled with all sorts of nonsense. None of it is true, they're an army just like any other. If you don't like them then of course that's cool, but generalizing them or the people who collect them is just wrong.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Why do I suddenly get urges to marry Void__Dragon?

You got yourself a fangirl, Mr. C'tan. ^____________________________________________________________________________________^

It's probably my blunt, sophisticated wit, and my classy avatar.

KommissarKarl wrote:
The internet hates everything that's popular. If Eldar were the best selling 40k army then forums would be full of scorn and derision for these "mary sues" and "elves IN SPESS". But Space Marines are the most popular, so they're labeled with all sorts of nonsense. None of it is true, they're an army just like any other. If you don't like them then of course that's cool, but generalizing them or the people who collect them is just wrong.

Cheers. People should collect what they want without being judged.

I am also firmly of the belief that Necron Living Metal is capable of self-repairing almost any damage, including partial melting.

I rarely get criticised for this, for some reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Why do I suddenly get urges to marry Void__Dragon?

You got yourself a fangirl, Mr. C'tan. ^____________________________________________________________________________________^

It's probably my blunt, sophisticated wit, and my classy avatar.

Where is your avatar from?

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am also firmly of the belief that Necron Living Metal is capable of self-repairing almost any damage, including partial melting.

I rarely get criticised for this, for some reason.

That's because it's pretty much true.

Where is your avatar from?

Why that's Dudley, from Street Fighter (4, specifically).

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Higher ranking SM's can surely command IG.

Again no (unless command is given to the SM's by higher IG command), just as they cannot command the Imperial Navy either, nor can they operate in Legion sized forces. That was all part of the post-heresy reorganizations.

Keep in mind the heresy is on "hush hush" and most people are completelg unaware such events occured.

yes the HH events themselves are hush-hush, the administrative changes made since then are not.

Alright, lets just agree to disagree. I have a different viewpoint than you and we'll leave it at that.

Normally I am a big fan of this line, ending an argument that cannot be settled before anyone's feelings are hurt.

BUT while there are a great many things in this background that can be healthily debated, this is not one of them. Imperial Law states that there must be a separation of Astartes and Guard hierarchies. Fact. Therefore, marines cannot simply take over Guard forces, regardless of their rank. Sure, they will many times defer to their experience, but they do not have to.

In fact as an extreme example, a Space Marine Chapter Master has absolutely zero authority over a lowly Imperial Guardsmen. The Guardsmen would be disobeying no orders or be subject to any retribution by Imperial Law should he refuse to answer to the marine (of course I'm sure his CO would have something to say to him for making him look like a fool)

 Vaktathi wrote:
Well, ok sure, but it simply is a thing that is true.

Space Marines can give orders to their chapter and their thralls. Other Imperial forces, be they Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle, other Space Marine chapters, Rogue Traders, Inquisitorial forces, the Imperial Navy, etc are only at their command if those other forces *choose* to place themselves under their command (or can otherwise be cajoled, threatened, etc).

One of these things is not an Imperial Force.

Though I'll be honest, I actually do enjoy space marines I just don't much like the fanboyism (I even enjoy UM )

On necrodermis: "The material is also adaptive in some unknown fashion and can learn to repair itself given enough time from nearly any form of damage, even a blast powerful enough to reduce it to its constituent molecules or atoms."

-Quothe the wiki

Space Marines are cool dudes. My friends thought that Space Marines were all there was to the hobby before I showed them otherwise. In a number of cases, its the current prevalance of big dudes in power armor geing super manly and hardcore. In others, its that they're over-represented in comparison to everything else.

I like 'em well enough. I'm gonna' focus on Necrons after Dark Vengeance. I'm not exactly broken up about Dark Angels being in Dark Vengeance, though. Actually, they look pretty damn cool and that's always a plus.

 Ignatius wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Higher ranking SM's can surely command IG.

Again no (unless command is given to the SM's by higher IG command), just as they cannot command the Imperial Navy either, nor can they operate in Legion sized forces. That was all part of the post-heresy reorganizations.

Keep in mind the heresy is on "hush hush" and most people are completelg unaware such events occured.

yes the HH events themselves are hush-hush, the administrative changes made since then are not.

Alright, lets just agree to disagree. I have a different viewpoint than you and we'll leave it at that.

Normally I am a big fan of this line, ending an argument that cannot be settled before anyone's feelings are hurt.

BUT while there are a great many things in this background that can be healthily debated, this is not one of them. Imperial Law states that there must be a separation of Astartes and Guard hierarchies. Fact. Therefore, marines cannot simply take over Guard forces, regardless of their rank. Sure, they will many times defer to their experience, but they do not have to.

In fact as an extreme example, a Space Marine Chapter Master has absolutely zero authority over a lowly Imperial Guardsmen. The Guardsmen would be disobeying no orders or be subject to any retribution by Imperial Law should he refuse to answer to the marine (of course I'm sure his CO would have something to say to him for making him look like a fool)

All I was saying was that most of the time SM's are often drawed upon by IG for their more abundant military knowledge (not that a human can't be an absolute military expert like Lord Solar Macharius). In order for one branch of military to take command of another, the administratum must first analyze the situation and approve of it.

Example: Marneus Calgar and his Ultramarines are going alongside three other SM chapters and 5 IG regiments to wage a war on an ork empire. All the commanding officers involved will be examined and the 13 high lords of terra will choose who they deem fitting to lead the campaign. Lets say its calgar by then, it is now law that you follow the orders of Chaptet Master Marneus Augustus mother frakking Calgar of the Ultramarines.

Adeptus Astartes have no formal authority over the Guard or other Imperial institutions in general. The reverse is true but they will generally cooperate with each other so that a campaign will go smoothy. A Captain will request for Guard support when needed and a Guard colonel can request that the Marines go destroy a certain target to assist the war effort.

Okay then. I agree with your post and I apologize for taking it a different and apparently incorrect way! Carry on

 Ignatius wrote:
Okay then. I agree with your post and I apologize for taking it a different and apparently incorrect way! Carry on

Nah, I see why you thought so. I originally did partially think that SM's held some unchallenged authority but apparently not.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am also firmly of the belief that Necron Living Metal is capable of self-repairing almost any damage, including partial melting.

I rarely get criticised for this, for some reason.

That's because it's pretty much true.

Indeed, but questioning the alloneshottiness of the Melta tends to incur aggravated responses.

Although, regarding the Necron anecdote, I should point out I am also of the belief that Living Metal can repair such damage rather quickly.

Depends on how damaged the Necron is. If it's obliterated, its pieces Phase Out to have its personality engrams installed into a new body. If it doesnt Phase, though, yeah, it'll be back up pretty quick.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am also firmly of the belief that Necron Living Metal is capable of self-repairing almost any damage, including partial melting.

I rarely get criticised for this, for some reason.

That's because it's pretty much true.

Indeed, but questioning the alloneshottiness of the Melta tends to incur aggravated responses.

Although, regarding the Necron anecdote, I should point out I am also of the belief that Living Metal can repair such damage rather quickly.

Ehhh? How quickly? I Believe in the living metal repair but sometimes Necrons to badly damaged need to be transfered to whatever those things are called that speed up the repairs and make them completely whole again.

But I know exactly squat about Necrons so I may be wrong

Kind of makes you wonder how Mogul Kamir man-stomped Necrons multiple times in his campaign.

It's possible that Necrons are physically weaker than their own creations. Seems true of a lot of factions. So you just kill the Necrons themselves easily and nuke their armor to kingdom come once they're "dead".

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It's possible that Necrons are physically weaker than their own creations. Seems true of a lot of factions. So you just kill the Necrons themselves easily and nuke their armor to kingdom come once they're "dead".

What?

Well, it was questioned how Mogul kamir defeated the Necrons when Living Metal is so powerful. I think it's because the Necrons themselves aren't as durable as the things that are made out of living metal so you can just shoot the Necrons dead and worry about the vehicles later. Now I realize how silly that sounds because Necron vehicles are quite powerful and it's not as easy to killing their riders to neutralize them.

Maybe he got lucky? Maybe he had the Guard fire a ton of ordinance at the Necrons? I don't know. Space Marines don't seem to be that good of a match up for Necrons given their excellent durability.

Because IG, SoB and xenos fanboys be jealous of the attention the über awesome Spess Mahreens get. Because of that they start to hate Space Marines and this hate is extended to Space Marine fans.

Maybe Space Marines are viewed as the flash / poster child for the game and they are viewed as a "starter" army.

So when you "really" get into the game, you play something else?

So space marine army player is viewed = to newbie?

Let me know when you are ready to play a real army son!

Just throwing out there conjecture, I play BT SM's after all.

I must admit I really liked the Dan Abnett books of Eisenhorn.

He really did convey dread very well when a CSM shows up and taking stock of what he had to throw at it before it tore him limb from limb just for fun... conveyed them as the real "gods of war".

I get the whole "rolling of eyes" and "they're the Marines, let's give them everything" treatment from all my fellow "xenos/chaos" players... don't quite get it, especially when I'm facing a wall of Tau supporting fire, or 4xHP Necron transports, or some super-armored Tzeentch master level 3 sorcerer build... Its basically the difference in personality type that either loves or hates the Oakland Raiders? Or if you root for Darth Vader instead of Luke? I think the psychological term is called "oppositional - defience"?

Personally, I perfer "The Imperium" because I can identify with "humanity" easier than with bugs or robots? The story line behind the motivations of other races of 40K just do not appeal to me? Chaos Marines are like spoiled little children pining for their father's attention... Eldar are too elitist... Tau are too "hippy"... Necrons are mindless... Tyranids are just "there"... nothing in the fluff of any of these appeals to me as far as wanting to play those armies...? That being said, there's no other army I'd rather fight against then say the Tyranids or the Necrons, who I lose too more often than not with my supposedly "overpowered & all inclusive" Marine lists? They make the best enemies, but their lists rely on gimmicks, imho, like: Gauss, Tesla & Protocols, or Rending and Synapse, or Thrust moves, Markerlights & Systems upgrades... and I would never play them myself... Guess that makes me a fanboy!

KommissarKarl wrote:
The internet hates everything that's popular. If Eldar were the best selling 40k army then forums would be full of scorn and derision for these "mary sues" and "elves IN SPESS". But Space Marines are the most popular, so they're labeled with all sorts of nonsense. None of it is true, they're an army just like any other. If you don't like them then of course that's cool, but generalizing them or the people who collect them is just wrong.

I don't know about you, but I have been saying that about Eldar for years. I have a dream that one day Chaos and Imperial, Tau and Ork, can all rise up together, hold hands, and go exterminate the Eldar as equals!

I pretty much hate every faction but ig, before the new sixth biok cam out i got some tau models because i liked the way the stealth suits look and even though i play them i still hate the tau and everything they stand for so hate from me is pretty well balanced. I do have a soft pity spot for nids and nid players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Kind of makes you wonder how Mogul Kamir man-stomped Necrons multiple times in his campaign.

none can defeat the space mongols

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
I pretty much hate every faction but ig

Why?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Well, it was questioned how Mogul kamir defeated the Necrons when Living Metal is so powerful. I think it's because the Necrons themselves aren't as durable as the things that are made out of living metal so you can just shoot the Necrons dead and worry about the vehicles later. Now I realize how silly that sounds because Necron vehicles are quite powerful and it's not as easy to killing their riders to neutralize them.

Maybe he got lucky? Maybe he had the Guard fire a ton of ordinance at the Necrons? I don't know. Space Marines don't seem to be that good of a match up for Necrons given their excellent durability.

Well I mean a Necron Warrior's necrodermis isn't nearly as thick as a Monolith, so I guess.

I would go through my two-cents on this, but I think it's pretty much been said already. Liking Marines is fine, as long as the perception of them doesn't go too far, wherein Marines do things like laugh off plasma blasts, and other armies might as well not exist for how powerful they are in comparison.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except Cain isn't that good, his entire career is simple luck. It's part of the reason why some people suspect he's an Imperial Saint or something like it.

Well, nah. He actually is a very skilled. He might put himself down a lot, but he really is a very skilled warrior and leader. He's also very cunning. Sure he's had his share of luck, but it would be wrong to say that his own skill wasn't a big factor in it too. Suffice to say, he's certainly not the average officer.

 Troike wrote:
I would go through my two-cents on this, but I think it's pretty much been said already. Liking Marines is fine, as long as the perception of them doesn't go too far, wherein Marines do things like laugh off plasma blasts, and other armies might as well not exist for how powerful they are in comparison.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except Cain isn't that good, his entire career is simple luck. It's part of the reason why some people suspect he's an Imperial Saint or something like it.

Well, nah. He actually is a very skilled. He might put himself down a lot, but he really is a very skilled warrior and leader. He's also very cunning. Sure he's had his share of luck, but it would be wrong to say that his own skill wasn't a big factor in it too. Suffice to say, he's certainly not the average officer.

He's a good swordsmen for sure. But being a good swordsmen and a good leader doesn't save you when Necrons wake up and start sacking everything. But the GEOM is definitely protecting him, getting close to Saint-Hood.

Hell I'm surprised Cain wasn't canonized post mortem.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Troike wrote:
I would go through my two-cents on this, but I think it's pretty much been said already. Liking Marines is fine, as long as the perception of them doesn't go too far, wherein Marines do things like laugh off plasma blasts, and other armies might as well not exist for how powerful they are in comparison.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except Cain isn't that good, his entire career is simple luck. It's part of the reason why some people suspect he's an Imperial Saint or something like it.

Well, nah. He actually is a very skilled. He might put himself down a lot, but he really is a very skilled warrior and leader. He's also very cunning. Sure he's had his share of luck, but it would be wrong to say that his own skill wasn't a big factor in it too. Suffice to say, he's certainly not the average officer.

He's a good swordsmen for sure. But being a good swordsmen and a good leader doesn't save you when Necrons wake up and start sacking everything. But the GEOM is definitely protecting him, getting close to Saint-Hood.

Hell I'm surprised Cain wasn't canonized post mortem.

That would require him to be officially dead. After the time he was announced dead but then turned out to be alive (Gravalax, I think?) they put in a rule that he wasn't to be declared dead or removed from active duty again. So even after his military burial with full honours he was listed as on active duty.

Guess the amount of bureaucracy to change one person from dead to alive is too much hassle to risk having it happen again