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 Melissia wrote:
Right, such as with "Hurr hurr, your silly plasma does nothing to my power armor!"

Yeah, damn those SoB and their PA, agree completely.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Right, such as with "Hurr hurr, your silly plasma does nothing to my power armor!"

Yeah, damn those SoB and their PA, agree completely.

It's still silly as all get out. Space Marines have several counters and Plasma is a notable one. Then you get some authors saying "Nope, Plasma doesn't do anything to Space Marines". It feels like kids play fighting and one kid telling another that his attacks don't affect him for contrived reasons.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Right, such as with "Hurr hurr, your silly plasma does nothing to my power armor!"

Yeah, damn those SoB and their PA, agree completely.

It's still silly as all get out. Space Marines have several counters and Plasma is a notable one. Then you get some authors saying "Nope, Plasma doesn't do anything to Space Marines". It feels like kids play fighting and one kid telling another that his attacks don't affect him for contrived reasons.

I have never argued, and I never will, that Plasma does nothing to Space Marines. Neither has I seen anyone else do, other than mention Zhou as an anecdote.

Who are you arguing against?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Seriously, this is the 2nd thread you've posted anti-religious talk. Cut it out with your athiest beliefs, this is DakkaDakka, we are trying to talk about 40k. You can stop being ignorant with the amount of BS you spew in a single post.

How about no. I'll criticize any ridiculous beliefs I want, whether it's space marine worship or god worship. After all, it's not like any of those real-world religions are any more plausible than the ones in 40k...

 Ashiraya wrote:
Why do you assume this is only true for the Space Marines?

Maybe the oh-so-great power of the Battle Cannon is just propaganda, and in truth it hits like a wet noodle.

The difference is that we don't see battle cannons doing anything beyond what a real-world tank gun can do. Therefore there is no reason to suspect that its portrayal is inaccurate.

you know it is kind of silly to try to start a religious war here of all places. I tend to keep religon out of my posts unless someone is offensive but this is a forum for semi intelligent discussion on toy soldiers. Religious discusions, unless on the fictitious religions of 40k have no place here and that type of bigotry should not seep into these discussions.

Replace Plasma with Battlecannons and what have you. My point is that Black Library's portrayal of Marines can come off as... well, fan spank.

Not saying that you or any one in particular is guilty of this. It's just what I'm getting from a lot of their novels and perhaps that's why Space Marine fanboys are disliked by some: Their favorite faction is backed up by books telling them how great their faction is.

40K is very difficult to get specific comparisons on a consistent basis and this is where a lot of arguments arise from.

 Melissia wrote:
There's a difference between being a fan and being a rabid fanboy. The former is usually not looked down upon. The latter usually is.

Looks like the thread should have ended after this post.

 Medium of Death wrote:
40K is very difficult to get specific comparisons on a consistent basis and this is where a lot of arguments arise from.

 Melissia wrote:
There's a difference between being a fan and being a rabid fanboy. The former is usually not looked down upon. The latter usually is.

Looks like the thread should have ended after this post.

And miss all the drama! And the funny part is that the persons who are so extremely vocal against fanboys show signs of fanboyism themselves .

And the truth of the matter is the bad guy is mostly more interesting than the good guy. you see that in movies, books and even wrestling.
Ultra marines get the most flak because they are so one dimensional, flawed chapters get more respect because of their dark secrets.

I won't even try and pretend I'm not a Sisters fangirl. ^^;

Generally they are portrayed as the quote on quote intelligent faction, but the they due stupid crap like take a planet or an army with around 100 dudes. I mean come on, the original rambo had better balance than sm. That and they get all the attention.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Right, such as with "Hurr hurr, your silly plasma does nothing to my power armor!"

Yeah, damn those SoB and their PA, agree completely.

It's still silly as all get out. Space Marines have several counters and Plasma is a notable one. Then you get some authors saying "Nope, Plasma doesn't do anything to Space Marines". It feels like kids play fighting and one kid telling another that his attacks don't affect him for contrived reasons.

Heck even CSM get dinked down by Plasma.

I think there was a novel where a Space Marine survived tanking a few melta shots...Whereas our Special Character Huron tanked a few..and ended up losing more then 3/4ths of his body, had to be repaired extensively with bionics, and was worked on by a few people who actively stitched together corpses and biotics and knew quite a bit about keeping people alive past certain death.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Right, such as with "Hurr hurr, your silly plasma does nothing to my power armor!"

Yeah, damn those SoB and their PA, agree completely.

It's still silly as all get out. Space Marines have several counters and Plasma is a notable one. Then you get some authors saying "Nope, Plasma doesn't do anything to Space Marines". It feels like kids play fighting and one kid telling another that his attacks don't affect him for contrived reasons.

Heck even CSM get dinked down by Plasma.

I think there was a novel where a Space Marine survived tanking a few melta shots...Whereas our Special Character Huron tanked a few..and ended up losing more then 3/4ths of his body, had to be repaired extensively with bionics, and was worked on by a few people who actively stitched together corpses and biotics and knew quite a bit about keeping people alive past certain death.

I believe Huron took a single melta shot from a Star Phantoms SM captain but I haven't read much about him so I may be wrong.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Right, such as with "Hurr hurr, your silly plasma does nothing to my power armor!"

Yeah, damn those SoB and their PA, agree completely.

It's still silly as all get out. Space Marines have several counters and Plasma is a notable one. Then you get some authors saying "Nope, Plasma doesn't do anything to Space Marines". It feels like kids play fighting and one kid telling another that his attacks don't affect him for contrived reasons.

Heck even CSM get dinked down by Plasma.

I think there was a novel where a Space Marine survived tanking a few melta shots...Whereas our Special Character Huron tanked a few..and ended up losing more then 3/4ths of his body, had to be repaired extensively with bionics, and was worked on by a few people who actively stitched together corpses and biotics and knew quite a bit about keeping people alive past certain death.

I believe Huron took a single melta shot from a Star Phantoms SM captain but I haven't read much about him so I may be wrong.

Yeah Lufgt Huron tanked One Melta shot, and as said required near full body biotics to stay alive.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Right, such as with "Hurr hurr, your silly plasma does nothing to my power armor!"

Yeah, damn those SoB and their PA, agree completely.

It's still silly as all get out. Space Marines have several counters and Plasma is a notable one. Then you get some authors saying "Nope, Plasma doesn't do anything to Space Marines". It feels like kids play fighting and one kid telling another that his attacks don't affect him for contrived reasons.

Heck even CSM get dinked down by Plasma.

I think there was a novel where a Space Marine survived tanking a few melta shots...Whereas our Special Character Huron tanked a few..and ended up losing more then 3/4ths of his body, had to be repaired extensively with bionics, and was worked on by a few people who actively stitched together corpses and biotics and knew quite a bit about keeping people alive past certain death.

I believe Huron took a single melta shot from a Star Phantoms SM captain but I haven't read much about him so I may be wrong.

Yeah Lufgt Huron tanked One Melta shot, and as said required near full body biotics to stay alive.

He also needs to be constantly repaired by apothecaries on a regular basis or he ends up paralyzed and drools.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Right, such as with "Hurr hurr, your silly plasma does nothing to my power armor!"

Yeah, damn those SoB and their PA, agree completely.

It's still silly as all get out. Space Marines have several counters and Plasma is a notable one. Then you get some authors saying "Nope, Plasma doesn't do anything to Space Marines". It feels like kids play fighting and one kid telling another that his attacks don't affect him for contrived reasons.

Heck even CSM get dinked down by Plasma.

I think there was a novel where a Space Marine survived tanking a few melta shots...Whereas our Special Character Huron tanked a few..and ended up losing more then 3/4ths of his body, had to be repaired extensively with bionics, and was worked on by a few people who actively stitched together corpses and biotics and knew quite a bit about keeping people alive past certain death.

I believe Huron took a single melta shot from a Star Phantoms SM captain but I haven't read much about him so I may be wrong.

Yeah Lufgt Huron tanked One Melta shot, and as said required near full body biotics to stay alive.

He also needs to be constantly repaired by apothecaries on a regular basis or he ends up paralyzed and drools.

That brings up an interesting question, when a space marine drools does his acid spit corrode his face?

Aren't the glands activated by choice? Meaning they choose when to use acid.

Yes, their drool would actually be very hot by nature but they choose to use the acid glands

Well at least the inside of the Marine's mouth would have to be rendered immune to their own acid. Otherwise using it would be a very painful and rather futile experience (if this stuff can melt metal I imagine human tissue wouldn't last very long). I'd guess the people who designed the gene-seed would be smart enough to reinforce the rest of the skin just in case. Spitting mishaps are known to happen.

This actually gets into the reason I'm not such a big fan of the Space Marines. All those organs and extra implants. I mean most of them are pretty cool and I like the fact they are included in genetically modified super soldiers (the one where they don't need to sleep, the one where they can survive vacuum exposure) but a couple are just so over the top and stupid (in my opinion) that it ruins them for me. seriously, every space marine can spit acid and learn people's memories by eating their brain? Really Games Workshop? You mean to tell me that amongst the constant monastic discipline and combat training that would make a Navy SEAL break down and cry we make room for... spitting lessons?

 dementedwombat wrote:
Well at least the inside of the Marine's mouth would have to be rendered immune to their own acid. Otherwise using it would be a very painful and rather futile experience (if this stuff can melt metal I imagine human tissue wouldn't last very long). I'd guess the people who designed the gene-seed would be smart enough to reinforce the rest of the skin just in case. Spitting mishaps are known to happen.

This actually gets into the reason I'm not such a big fan of the Space Marines. All those organs and extra implants. I mean most of them are pretty cool and I like the fact they are included in genetically modified super soldiers (the one where they don't need to sleep, the one where they can survive vacuum exposure) but a couple are just so over the top and stupid (in my opinion) that it ruins them for me. seriously, every space marine can spit acid and learn people's memories by eating their brain? Really Games Workshop? You mean to tell me that amongst the constant monastic discipline and combat training that would make a Navy SEAL break down and cry we make room for... spitting lessons?

To be fair, it used to be believed around the early 00's IIRC that RNA could store memories, and that flatworms could eat another flatworm and digest its memories and assimilate them. So it wasn't too outlandish of an idea that Astartes could learn how to pilot something by eating the mind of somebody with sufficiently advanced bio-engineering around 18,000 years in the future.

Although now that flatworm "theory" is bunk.

pm713 wrote:
Aren't the glands activated by choice? Meaning they choose when to use acid.

Yes. Otherwise Imperial Guard commanders would take many friendly fire casualties from Marines who enunciate too enthusiastically whilst giving orders.

Also, despite the frequent talk of acid spit, most Geneseed actually doesn't support that ability any more. I believe only the Imperial Fists actually retain that ability. In addition, it's a binary process - the Betcher's Gland is actually two separate glands that produce chemicals that combine upon contact with air to produce a corrosive substance. The default spit attack of a Space Marine is similar to that of a Spitting Cobra - harmless unless it gets into an open wound or an unprotected mucus membrane.

The Brothers of the Snake have a mutated Betcher's Gland that somehow links with their Oolotic Kidney to extract toxins from their bloodstream and channel them to the Betcher's Gland, allowing them to effectively use any kind of poison they can get their hands on in a spit attack.

Doombunny wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Aren't the glands activated by choice? Meaning they choose when to use acid.

Yes. Otherwise Imperial Guard commanders would take many friendly fire casualties from Marines who enunciate too enthusiastically whilst giving orders.

Marines can't give orders to the Imperial Guard, the Marines aren't in their chain of command since the breakup of the Legions, barring some decidedly curious non-codex situations like the Ultramarines having their own mini-empire and acting as Imperial Commanders as well.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Also, despite the frequent talk of acid spit, most Geneseed actually doesn't support that ability any more. I believe only the Imperial Fists actually retain that ability. In addition

I thought the IF's in particular lost it?

In practical terms, the Marines take control of Guard regiments all the time though.

And yes, you're right, the Fists have lost it. I don't know who keeps it then, but I know its more common to have lost it than not.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
In practical terms, the Marines take control of Guard regiments all the time though.

And yes, you're right, the Fists have lost it. I don't know who keeps it then, but I know its more common to have lost it than not.

Actually, a lot of SM chapters still retain the abililty. The IF's have lost the genetic code but as far as everyone else they're fine.

But if you have a source to backup your claim I'll accept it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Doombunny wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Aren't the glands activated by choice? Meaning they choose when to use acid.

Yes. Otherwise Imperial Guard commanders would take many friendly fire casualties from Marines who enunciate too enthusiastically whilst giving orders.

Marines can't give orders to the Imperial Guard, the Marines aren't in their chain of command since the breakup of the Legions, barring some decidedly curious non-codex situations like the Ultramarines having their own mini-empire and acting as Imperial Commanders as well.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Also, despite the frequent talk of acid spit, most Geneseed actually doesn't support that ability any more. I believe only the Imperial Fists actually retain that ability. In addition

I thought the IF's in particular lost it?

Actually, yes, SM's take command over IG all the time. Look at Marneus, his very appearance demands the respect and recognition as a commanding officer in almost every scenario he's placed.

In the heat of battle, things look different. An IG captain can command an entire SM squad though in most cases that IG captain will draw upon the SM sergeants combat knowledge since he's been fighting the enemies of the Imperium before he was even born.

In the case that an IG captain and a SM captain find themselves together, Adeptus Astartes almost always cancel the other out.

In prolonged campaigns where there will be multiple SM chapters and several IG regiments and commanders, the adminastratum will analyze the combat records of all the present leaders and select who is tasked to lead the campaign. Normally, Marneus Calgar always wins that hehe

 Ashiraya wrote:
I see lots of complaints aimed at SM fangirls/boys all over the place. It is very stigmatised.

On the other hand, as I noticed over in the 'Can-SM-take-a-planet' thread, IG fanboys and so on are just as extreme.

Why has this escaped stigma?

Try to follow rule #1 in this, please. I want to analyse the situation and debate the cause and so on, not point fingers and throw insults.

Because non-Marine players are jealous of Marines. That's the only reason.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I see lots of complaints aimed at SM fangirls/boys all over the place. It is very stigmatised.

On the other hand, as I noticed over in the 'Can-SM-take-a-planet' thread, IG fanboys and so on are just as extreme.

Why has this escaped stigma?

Try to follow rule #1 in this, please. I want to analyse the situation and debate the cause and so on, not point fingers and throw insults.

Because non-Marine players are jealous of Marines. That's the only reason.

Yup

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Not until you read Black Library bolter-porn that is. Then you'll see why people think that Games Workshop make Space Marines out to be the best there ever was. I don't know if such novels are in the majority but they sure speak the loudest on this forum.

Yet Gaunt's Ghosts, a guardsman book, has a Marine dying like an ostrich to a single shot from a Guardsman's lasgun. Yet Marine fans complain far less often about this than any random Marine exploit in some novel. It seems the Marine fanboys are the more mature.

It's possible that a marine can die from a single lasgun shot. It's very, very, very unlikely, though. Is that presented as the norm? If so, I would call BS on that too as much as I would a marine "tanking" a battle cannon round.

You also have to consider that instances where Marines die like chumps is a very rare occurrence in Black Library fiction compared to all the instances where they laugh off their enemies most powerful firepower. I believe. So, because that portrayal of Marines is more represented it makes more sense that it gets more complaints. If the reverse was true you would have Marine players complaining and rightly so.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I see lots of complaints aimed at SM fangirls/boys all over the place. It is very stigmatised.

On the other hand, as I noticed over in the 'Can-SM-take-a-planet' thread, IG fanboys and so on are just as extreme.

Why has this escaped stigma?

Try to follow rule #1 in this, please. I want to analyse the situation and debate the cause and so on, not point fingers and throw insults.

Because non-Marine players are jealous of Marines. That's the only reason.

Yup

Nope. Because some raving marine fanboys will, in my experience, get stroppy when they lose because "that's not how it would happen in the fluff!"

Actually, yes, if a squad of 10 marines tried running over open ground at a unit of Crisis suits packing plasma and supported by pathfinders then they would all be killed to a man.

And yes, your librarian in terminator armour standing on his own would be turned into a fine, red mist when three solid shot railguns punched through his chest.

Basically the fluff has given marines ridiculous amounts of plot armour that cannot be replicated on the tabletop without breaking the game. This results in some (not, by any stretch, all) marine fans crying that the tabletop game is not an accurate representation of the fluff when in fact it is the fluff that is not accurate due to author bias. They're fine with Bolters cutting down swathes of power armoured chaos marines but apparently their power armour should be capable of shrugging off dedicated anti-armour weaponry.

These kind of interactions tend to stick in the mind a bit more than the times when you had a cool discussion with the marine player about the pros and cons of power armour, teminator armour and the XV8 battlesuit.

Most other armies don't have that kind of protection. Their standard soldiers are never portrayed as invincible, their elite soldiers are very rarely portrayed as invincible. This means that players of those armies typically have a bit less of the plot armour expectation.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Actually, yes, SM's take command over IG all the time. Look at Marneus, his very appearance demands the respect and recognition as a commanding officer in almost every scenario he's placed.

As I noted, he has a position as an Imperial Commander that most SM's lack (which is curious given that it was Calgar that cleaved the SM's from the IG in the first place...) which *does* mean he has a place in the IG command structure.

In the heat of battle, things look different. An IG captain can command an entire SM squad though in most cases that IG captain will draw upon the SM sergeants combat knowledge since he's been fighting the enemies of the Imperium before he was even born.

...maaaaybe? Not all SM's are ancient centuries old warriors. Hell, if a chapter is losing more than a few SM's a year they'll be extinct in a couple of decades. Let's not forget that many Imperial officers have decades of experience themselves. The IG captain may take their advice into consideration, but probably not take direct orders, especially as the SM sergeant probably has little if any experience in commanding larger formations like platoons, companies, or battalions.

In the case that an IG captain and a SM captain find themselves together, Adeptus Astartes almost always cancel the other out.

What do you mean by "cancel out"?

In prolonged campaigns where there will be multiple SM chapters and several IG regiments and commanders, the adminastratum will analyze the combat records of all the present leaders and select who is tasked to lead the campaign. Normally, Marneus Calgar always wins that hehe

Again, he has special status being an Imperial Commander who would be entitled to command PDF and IG forces.

Otherwise SM's need to be given permission to give orders to the IG, and IG forces need to be ordered to recognize orders from SM's. Sometimes does happen, but the SM's can't just show up and start issuing orders if the IG doesn't want to take them after the Horus Heresy.

 Peregrine wrote:
stories about space marines are the equivalent of real-world religious myths. They are, at best, based very loosely on real events that have been wildly exaggerated to make a more impressive myth. But yet, in their respective universes, they are both considered literal truth by the people who believe in those religions. Understanding this is key to understanding how space marine fluff works.

Do you have a single fact to back that up?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It's possible that a marine can die from a single lasgun shot. It's very, very, very unlikely, though. Is that presented as the norm?

By some people, yeah.

You also have to consider that instances where Marines die like chumps is a very rare occurrence in Black Library fiction compared to all the instances where they laugh off their enemies most powerful firepower. I believe. So, because that portrayal of Marines is more represented it makes more sense that it gets more complaints. If the reverse was true you would have Marine players complaining and rightly so.

Is it though?

In Horus Rising, a Marine is killed by a single bolter round through the chestplate.

In Pariah, Eisenhorn easily cuts down three Marines, and in one of the Ravenor short stories Eisenhorn cuts a dreadnought in half.

In fact, if you want to see Marines dying in silly ways, just read Dan Abnett's work.