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 BlaxicanX wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Not until you read Black Library bolter-porn that is.

I addressed Black Library in my post.

Somewhat. But Peregrine did remind me of a very important fact about 40k: A lot of it is half-truths, propaganda and outright lies. So you can pretty much believe whatever you want about the 40k Universe since it's all about as correct as each other. If I said that a Leman Russ demolisher can wipe out a squad of Space Marines I'm as right about that as the Black Library novel that says a Space Marine can "tank" anything coming from a Guard artillery piece.

I think one reason why Space Marine fanboyism is stigmatized is that they insist that their interpretation of the lore is more correct somehow.

That hasn't been my experience, at least not on this forum. There is a very heavy concentration of anti-marine sentiment. Look at this very thread, and the one below it.

Two individuals, myself and whatshiface, are pretty much alone in "defending" Specce Muhreens.

And Lynata and Melissia haven't even gotten here yet.

It's darkest before the dawn brehs.

One other thing to think about is how often GW's fluff is little more than "LOOK AT HOW AWESOME THIS ARMY IS" without any real story attached to the mindless violence and explosions. Space marines are the best because they kill everything, except the special space marines who are even more awesome because they're more powerful than regular space marines, all the way up to a whole GK codex whose fluff is pretty much "THIS SQUAD IS SO MUCH MOAR ELITE THAN THE LAST SQUAD" over and over again. Contrast that with the Culture: they're so ridiculously powerful that a single ship could kill the entire 40k galaxy with about as much effort as a person stepping on a bug, but because all of that firepower is just an interesting detail in an awesome story it's harder to get the same kind of fanboy attitude.

Say what you want about GW seriously loving SM. It may be true fluff wise, but if you hadn't noticed, (And this is clearly my opinion), Space Marines in general are MAYBE barely a top tier army. Their crunch is in D&D terms, Mediocre+1.

Like in Caddyshack 2, where he's trying to explain his current social class? SM are (imho) Upper-lower to much more likely Middle-upper.

And don't even get me started about the chapters with their own codex... Space Wolves, my spiritual bruvahs havent been good in a long time (though so many of you are bitter about those days)

Personally, I think the reason Marine fangirls/boys get so stigmatised is because, other than Sisters fangirls/boys, nobody takes any of the fanclubs seriously.

After all, lets break it down by popular opinion;

Space Marine Fanpeople: Arrogant, self-entitled twonks who think the world owes them everything.

Sisters Fanpeople: Arrogant, self-absorbed whiners who think they've got it sooo hard.

Guard Fanpeople: "Hey! Hey! Over here! We're cool too! Right? Please tell me I'm cool too..."

CSM Fanpeople: "Hi, my name's Ashiraya and I'm a Chaos player..." "Hi, Ashiraya."

:p

Hah, you nailed it on the head Miko.

I always thought Guard fanboys as people who think 40k should be more like Siege of Vraks over and over again while Space Marine fanboys want... more of that one book with Marines beating Guardsmen with their own tank treads. Or, in other words, spr srs bzness as opposed to wacky awesomeness.

Then there are Eldar fanboys who think their faction is unbeatable and they're right.

I dislike Marine fanboys because the feats they tout turn 40k into a comic book style.

I like things to be a little bit realistic, or at least plausible, given the laws of the universe or whathaveyou.

But Space Marine fanboys take all of the stories as literal truth (except the ones where Space Marines do badly), which turns 40k from a grimdark, gritty, over-the-top sci-fi setting into a comic-book, superhero, so-over-the-top-it-hurts fantasy setting.

... is 40K not a comic booky, superhero so over-the-top-it-hurts fantasy setting?

Last I checked, running across a warzone littered with tanks and machine gun-wielding baddies and giant robots and monsters with nothing but a sword and a pistol in your hands is considered a sound tactical maneuver in 40K... Guardsmen still employ trench-warfare tactics in a setting where people have city-leveling ICBM's, etc.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Last I checked, running across a warzone littered with tanks and machine gun-wielding baddies and giant robots and monsters with nothing but a sword and a pistol in your hands is considered a sound tactical maneuver in 40K...

Yes, but the question is how we interpret that story:

The realist says that it should be treated like a story about Jesus rising from the grave, grabbing a sharpened fragment of the cross, and chopping the antichrist's head off: sure, it makes a good scene in an action movie, but nobody should consider it literal truth (as opposed to Imperial religious propaganda about how awesome their saints and martyrs are). The realist says that the reality is much closer to what happens on the tabletop, where that "sound tactical maneuver" just gets you killed.

The space marine fanboy insists that the "sound tactical maneuver" is in fact a sound tactical maneuver, and talks endlessly about how awesome it is.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
CSM Fanpeople: "Hi, my name's Ashiraya and I'm a Chaos player..." "Hi, Ashiraya."

:p

The current meta at our FLGS is to CONSTANTLY talk crap about the "corpse-emprah" in loud obnoxious voices right next to people trying to play games. Quite annoying when you're a socially awkward heavily introverted person that doesn't enjoy face-to-face bantering.

Lets try my FLGS version of that one:

CSM Fanpeople: "Hi, my name's Ashiraya and I'm a Chaos player..." "Hi, Ashiraya. Space puppies are fighting pewter hands. Lets talk about how stupid their Imperium is."

 Peregrine wrote:

Yes, but the question is how we interpret that story:

Not in this instance. While individual events are certainly up to the interpretation of the reader, from an outside perspective, looking at 40K as a franchise and a setting, it's quite obvious that the thematic and aesthetic Games Workshop has been going for and has been going for for quite some time is for 40K to basically be WW2 in space, with a plethora of fantasy tropes, iconic movie inspirations, anime and other over-the-top influences packed in alongside it. There is very little within 40K as Games Workshop has presented it that paints it as some sort of grounded, realistic war-simulator like ARMA or something.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Because it's fanboyism. Space marine fanboys aren't content with their favorite army being Starship Troopers power armor (elite of the elite drop pod infantry with jet packs and tactical nukes) with chainsaw swords and a lot more religious icons, they need to make them into literal superheroes that can conquer whole planets with a squad or two.

They're not "making them out", that's what they officially do. Although they don't occupy planets, that's a job for the guard.

GW's official position is that the fluff is all myths and propaganda and wild exaggeration for the sake of telling an awesome story. Fanboys just insist that it all has to be literal truth.

So this is the only truth?

I'm still mostly pissed at the fanboyism that the SM players keep thinking CSM is nothing more then just a few scattered warbands here and there that SM easily stomps on because all CSM does is charge forward scream and get shot

Oh and we don't deserve anything because we're just a few scattered warbands who don't deserve anything equivalent to legion tactics.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I'm still mostly pissed at the fanboyism that the SM players keep thinking CSM is nothing more then just a few scattered warbands here and there that SM easily stomps on because all CSM does is charge forward scream and get shot

Oh and we don't deserve anything because we're just a few scattered warbands who don't deserve anything equivalent to legion tactics.

Haha, yes, glad someone else noticed. CSM's are slaughtered almost as bad as orks (a little bit of sarcasm but ya get da point). CSM's are just as smart and powerful as loyalists but since they are meant to die...they will die in great droves. Thanks a lot, nice to know CSM's are about as useless as the cultists they send to be butchered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Last I checked, running across a warzone littered with tanks and machine gun-wielding baddies and giant robots and monsters with nothing but a sword and a pistol in your hands is considered a sound tactical maneuver in 40K...

Yes, but the question is how we interpret that story:

The realist says that it should be treated like a story about Jesus rising from the grave, grabbing a sharpened fragment of the cross, and chopping the antichrist's head off: sure, it makes a good scene in an action movie, but nobody should consider it literal truth (as opposed to Imperial religious propaganda about how awesome their saints and martyrs are). The realist says that the reality is much closer to what happens on the tabletop, where that "sound tactical maneuver" just gets you killed.

The space marine fanboy insists that the "sound tactical maneuver" is in fact a sound tactical maneuver, and talks endlessly about how awesome it is.

Seriously, this is the 2nd thread you've posted anti-religious talk. Cut it out with your athiest beliefs, this is DakkaDakka, we are trying to talk about 40k. You can stop being ignorant with the amount of BS you spew in a single post.

One, Marines get dislike because of their playerbase. At least back when I used to play, the younger players would likely be playing Space Marines over something else.

Two, Games Workshop is constantly pushing the Marines forward, they're in every starter boxset. There's also a lot of fluff in which Marines do things that clearly rely on an auto-win button tucked sneakily into the back pocket of their jeans.

Three, from IG players especially, the Marines seem to get all the credit. The Guard does the bulk of the work, the Marines come in, steal the glory, and then laugh at the Guardsmen being equipped with flashlights and cardboard armour.

Four, the Ultramarines. They alone inspire a lot of hate because, as an extension of two, they're pushed as the best of the best. Moreover, they have very little unique about them. Blood Angels have the Death Company, Space Wolves have the haircuts, Dark Angels like to cross-dress. Ultramarines meanwhile are shown to be the bog-standard, and yet still the best of all the Marine chapters. There's nothing much wrong with them, nothing much special about them. I think people find them generally boring and this combines with GW's pushing of them as the bestest of the bestest to get people to dislike them.

I think the main reason for the dislike is that GW pushes them so hard, and that to many they aren't really special, just boring. Not to say that I agree with this. The Marine hate is something I'd tend to limit to Ultramarines personally. And that's mostly because I'd like to hear about someone interesting for a change.

Doombunny wrote:
One, Marines get dislike because of their playerbase. At least back when I used to play, the younger players would likely be playing Space Marines over something else.

Two, Games Workshop is constantly pushing the Marines forward, they're in every starter boxset. There's also a lot of fluff in which Marines do things that clearly rely on an auto-win button tucked sneakily into the back pocket of their jeans.

Three, from IG players especially, the Marines seem to get all the credit. The Guard does the bulk of the work, the Marines come in, steal the glory, and then laugh at the Guardsmen being equipped with flashlights and cardboard armour.

Four, the Ultramarines. They alone inspire a lot of hate because, as an extension of two, they're pushed as the best of the best. Moreover, they have very little unique about them. Blood Angels have the Death Company, Space Wolves have the haircuts, Dark Angels like to cross-dress. Ultramarines meanwhile are shown to be the bog-standard, and yet still the best of all the Marine chapters. There's nothing much wrong with them, nothing much special about them. I think people find them generally boring and this combines with GW's pushing of them as the bestest of the bestest to get people to dislike them.

I think the main reason for the dislike is that GW pushes them so hard, and that to many they aren't really special, just boring. Not to say that I agree with this. The Marine hate is something I'd tend to limit to Ultramarines personally. And that's mostly because I'd like to hear about someone interesting for a change.

Haha, perfectly worded actually. My favorite SM chapter is the Imperial Fists but guess which chapter I first played?? ULTRAMARINES!

Like you said, a lot of SM chapters have a certain personality trait, something people can love and cling to. Ultramarines...are just these really overused SM's with no particular design or trait. They're just suppose to be liked because GW says so and that's whats boring about them.

I like Ultramarines don't get me wrong, it's just they need more personality while at the same time giving attention to other SM chapters.

Space Wolves for instance seem to be a fan sensation along with a few others. They have this awesome thing about them, they look like vikings, they howl like wolves and can even turn into one should they become too blood thirsty (or if that's not true forgive me, I am a bit short of knowledge with Space Wolves).

But despite these cool traits they are never really showed off. It's always the Ultras. Understandably aggravating to SW players and BA players and anyone else who feels their loved chapter is constantly left in the dark. GW seems to fail at a lot of what it does, but I will always love Warhammer 40k

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Because it's fanboyism. Space marine fanboys aren't content with their favorite army being Starship Troopers power armor (elite of the elite drop pod infantry with jet packs and tactical nukes) with chainsaw swords and a lot more religious icons, they need to make them into literal superheroes that can conquer whole planets with a squad or two.

They're not "making them out", that's what they officially do. Although they don't occupy planets, that's a job for the guard.

GW's official position is that the fluff is all myths and propaganda and wild exaggeration for the sake of telling an awesome story. Fanboys just insist that it all has to be literal truth.

Why do you assume this is only true for the Space Marines?

Maybe the oh-so-great power of the Battle Cannon is just propaganda, and in truth it hits like a wet noodle. The common man is far more likely to see a Battle Cannon in action than an Astartes, but it is irrelevant since the Imperium has little issues with publishing hilariously untrue propaganda that falls apart the moment the battle starts anyway. (See: Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer)

The claim that space marine players are spoiled ignores the fact that most space marine players, either chaos or loyalist, are forced to use mediocre rules most of the time. Space Marines often form a baseline of sorts for the power level of the armies. The current book is one of the rare times when the loyalists are one of the stronger more solid armies.

There are some reasons to my mind why this is so.

Personally, the Space Marines have been becoming less and less interesting as time goes on. They're becoming more and more "Heroic" and "Medieval" or "Knightly", becoming much more one-dimensional heroes and much less of the more ambiguous "Psycho-indoctrinated genetically engineered xenophobic super-solider". The models and imagery are much more "Knightly" with wreaths and furs and golden decorations galore, with less of the more 2nd/3rd edition mechanical look with more pipes/chains/spikes/blades/servos and whatnot.

The writing quality has also been increasingly...controversial as well, with many viewing SM fluff of the last few editions as decreasing in terms of quality relative to older editions.

These in turn make it difficult for many to see enthusiasm for SM's as a fun thing.

There's been much the same sort of thing happening to the Chaos Space Marines, with many perceiving the visualization and fluff GW has been putting out as inferior and more one-dimensional or trope-laden than previous editions and many CSM players have been railing against that. The difference here I think is that most of the CSM players actively voice dislike for the changes while many SM players embrace the way GW has been directing the SM's.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Because it's fanboyism. Space marine fanboys aren't content with their favorite army being Starship Troopers power armor (elite of the elite drop pod infantry with jet packs and tactical nukes) with chainsaw swords and a lot more religious icons, they need to make them into literal superheroes that can conquer whole planets with a squad or two.

They're not "making them out", that's what they officially do. Although they don't occupy planets, that's a job for the guard.

GW's official position is that the fluff is all myths and propaganda and wild exaggeration for the sake of telling an awesome story. Fanboys just insist that it all has to be literal truth.

Mind quoting the GW CEO on that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
There are some reasons to my mind why this is so.

Personally, the Space Marines have been becoming less and less interesting as time goes on. They're becoming more and more "Heroic" and "Medieval" or "Knightly", becoming much more one-dimensional heroes and much less of the more ambiguous "Psycho-indoctrinated genetically engineered xenophobic super-solider". The models and imagery are much more "Knightly" with wreaths and furs and golden decorations galore, with less of the more 2nd/3rd edition mechanical look with more pipes/chains/spikes/blades/servos and whatnot.

The writing quality has also been increasingly...controversial as well, with many viewing SM fluff of the last few editions as decreasing in terms of quality relative to older editions.

These in turn make it difficult for many to see enthusiasm for SM's as a fun thing.

There's been much the same sort of thing happening to the Chaos Space Marines, with many perceiving the visualization and fluff GW has been putting out as inferior and more one-dimensional or trope-laden than previous editions and many CSM players have been railing against that. The difference here I think is that most of the CSM players actively voice dislike for the changes while many SM players embrace the way GW has been directing the SM's.

Pretty much exactly why I'm building a CSM army. Besides some exceptions like the Saladamners, Black Dragons, or Iron Hands, loyalist look like gak. Needs more spikes and topknots.

For me, it's all about how much you have to suspend your disbelief. In the Tanith IG books, you've got drawn out fire fights, tough battles, and guys dying. Basically Saving Private Ryan style. It's in a fantasy sci fi setting, but their feats on the battle field are believable in an action movie sort of way.

Reading the Wolf of Ash and Fire, the marines crash into an Ork asteroid at high speed, then Horus jumps after the Emperor and takes the time to describe how he's falling literally kilometers, passing all sorts of random power plants and things, before crashing to the ground and being fine. Then he just walks through masses of Orks without so much as a second glance and defeats a massive Ork machine before the Emperor swallows a plasma detonation or something.

It's the difference between batman and superman. Batman is always vulnerable, surviving on his wit, skill, and luck like the IG. SM are like Superman, just brute forcing any problem, and if there's a new challenge, they just have some secret weapon or ability to deus ex their way out of it. SM fluff should emphasize their strategic acumen and coordination (think Tom Clancy Rainbow Six) and less we're invincible demigods who can survive exploding volcanoes and win when outnumbered 1,000 to 1.

 TheSilo wrote:
For me, it's all about how much you have to suspend your disbelief. In the Tanith IG books, you've got drawn out fire fights, tough battles, and guys dying. Basically Saving Private Ryan style. It's in a fantasy sci fi setting, but their feats on the battle field are believable in an action movie sort of way.

Reading the Wolf of Ash and Fire, the marines crash into an Ork asteroid at high speed, then Horus jumps after the Emperor and takes the time to describe how he's falling literally kilometers, passing all sorts of random power plants and things, before crashing to the ground and being fine. Then he just walks through masses of Orks without so much as a second glance and defeats a massive Ork machine before the Emperor swallows a plasma detonation or something.

It's the difference between batman and superman. Batman is always vulnerable, surviving on his wit, skill, and luck like the IG. SM are like Superman, just brute forcing any problem, and if there's a new challenge, they just have some secret weapon or ability to deus ex their way out of it. SM fluff should emphasize their strategic acumen and coordination (think Tom Clancy Rainbow Six) and less we're invincible demigods who can survive exploding volcanoes and win when outnumbered 1,000 to 1.

You've got that kinda backwards, much of the time Batman relies on plot power, bad writing and overall things coming last second with much dues ex machina, you can plan for things but being able to plan out being able to beat GODS is still pretty bad.

Superman often fights more mental opponents, the ones he cant usually just brute force and so it actually forces him to deal with things through it. (Also when does superman have some sort of secret weapon?) Superman hasn't had new abilities since the silver-age kept adding new insane things.

 PhillyT wrote:
The claim that space marine players are spoiled ignores the fact that most space marine players, either chaos or loyalist, are forced to use mediocre rules most of the time.

On the other hand GW does publish absolute truckloads of different Marine kits in plastic, and most can be mixed and matched to produce awesome models. They push marines at every turn, probably because it's so cheap to tool up a new marine kit based on the previous one. All the while other armies have to suffer from units with no models or in the extreme (SoB) expensive metal pieces and no flyers unless you pay premium for Forgeworld.

Yes, marine books aren't always top performers - but almost any model they want is available in plastic at basic GW price.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
You've got that kinda backwards, much of the time Batman relies on plot power. Superman often fights more mental opponents, the ones he cant usually just brute force and so it actually forces him to deal with things through it.

IIRC Superman does the deus-ex-machine quite often too - everything seems to be going like the opponent planned until he's foiled at the last minute by Superman who then explains he saw through the plot at first glance and just went along. Writing for them both does have some different challenges though - Batman is just a man and needs worry about not being plain shot while Superman could basically just dismantle every military on Earth if he decided that's best.

"Why is SM-fanboyism so stigmatised?"

Because at first glance these are the heroes of the game.

The people who want to play the Paladin.
When as you dig deeper the line of hero and villain means less.

They are an obvious strong army: Power Armor like Iron Man! They fire bullets that explode like grenades! They "Know no Fear".

For older types like me who read the original "Starship Trooper" those power suits are what a real space marine would use.

Guess it boils down to them being a cliché barely realizing their potential.

Having said that, I play BT because the idea of frothing religious zealots who even the Orks have a particular affection for, says something!

 TheSilo wrote:
For me, it's all about how much you have to suspend your disbelief. In the Tanith IG books, you've got drawn out fire fights, tough battles, and guys dying. Basically Saving Private Ryan style. It's in a fantasy sci fi setting, but their feats on the battle field are believable in an action movie sort of way.

Reading the Wolf of Ash and Fire, the marines crash into an Ork asteroid at high speed, then Horus jumps after the Emperor and takes the time to describe how he's falling literally kilometers, passing all sorts of random power plants and things, before crashing to the ground and being fine. Then he just walks through masses of Orks without so much as a second glance and defeats a massive Ork machine before the Emperor swallows a plasma detonation or something.

It's the difference between batman and superman. Batman is always vulnerable, surviving on his wit, skill, and luck like the IG. SM are like Superman, just brute forcing any problem, and if there's a new challenge, they just have some secret weapon or ability to deus ex their way out of it. SM fluff should emphasize their strategic acumen and coordination (think Tom Clancy Rainbow Six) and less we're invincible demigods who can survive exploding volcanoes and win when outnumbered 1,000 to 1.

This is part of the reason I liked Abnett's Marine book (I forget the name, something about serpents?), because whilst still tough, the Marines had some vulnerability.

Marines being proofed against small arms fire, and with some protection against heavier weapons is ok. Once they start doing things like taking battle cannon rounds and plasma bolts to the face and reacting as if it's just a minor inconvenience, they stop being interesting.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I see lots of complaints aimed at SM fangirls/boys all over the place. It is very stigmatised.

On the other hand, as I noticed over in the 'Can-SM-take-a-planet' thread, IG fanboys and so on are just as extreme.

Why has this escaped stigma?

Try to follow rule #1 in this, please. I want to analyse the situation and debate the cause and so on, not point fingers and throw insults.

there are more of them than us, in my meta i can count the non sm players on two hands everybody else plays a variant of loyalist sm. IG fans like my self hate the fact that the sm seem to show up for the last 10 minutes and take all the credit (in my opinion). It seems that everybody else is logical and we are 40k's resident donkey-caves and are the dumbassses who take billions of casualties to take a hill. I had a gw worker tell me that sm are the most relatable faction because they experience fear. What? That kind of attitude is why i dont like sm fans. Hey look at my 65 point (not sure on cost, is approximate) 2+5++ saves with a missile launcher. The guy who told me that then ignored me when i told him everything he could buy with it. They come of as stuck up. At least i have the only imperial calvary unit noooooooo wait, they suck, never mind. I feel my buddies can use the 3+ save to cover bad tactics.

Doombunny wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:
For me, it's all about how much you have to suspend your disbelief. In the Tanith IG books, you've got drawn out fire fights, tough battles, and guys dying. Basically Saving Private Ryan style. It's in a fantasy sci fi setting, but their feats on the battle field are believable in an action movie sort of way.

Reading the Wolf of Ash and Fire, the marines crash into an Ork asteroid at high speed, then Horus jumps after the Emperor and takes the time to describe how he's falling literally kilometers, passing all sorts of random power plants and things, before crashing to the ground and being fine. Then he just walks through masses of Orks without so much as a second glance and defeats a massive Ork machine before the Emperor swallows a plasma detonation or something.

It's the difference between batman and superman. Batman is always vulnerable, surviving on his wit, skill, and luck like the IG. SM are like Superman, just brute forcing any problem, and if there's a new challenge, they just have some secret weapon or ability to deus ex their way out of it. SM fluff should emphasize their strategic acumen and coordination (think Tom Clancy Rainbow Six) and less we're invincible demigods who can survive exploding volcanoes and win when outnumbered 1,000 to 1.

This is part of the reason I liked Abnett's Marine book (I forget the name, something about serpents?), because whilst still tough, the Marines had some vulnerability.

Marines being proofed against small arms fire, and with some protection against heavier weapons is ok. Once they start doing things like taking battle cannon rounds and plasma bolts to the face and reacting as if it's just a minor inconvenience, they stop being interesting.

I prefer a middle road. They can tank battle cannons and plasma shots, no problems, but it's certainly more than a minor inconvenience to them.

Doombunny wrote:

This is part of the reason I liked Abnett's Marine book (I forget the name, something about serpents?), because whilst still tough, the Marines had some vulnerability.

Brothers of the Snake? I actually had the opposite reaction. I found it to be a fairly ludicrous over-exaggeration of Marine capabilities. Sending a single Marine to deal with an unknown number of Dark Eldar pirates, or having a single tac squad literally slay thousands of Dark Eldar with no major casualties, etc.

 Ashiraya wrote:


This is part of the reason I liked Abnett's Marine book (I forget the name, something about serpents?), because whilst still tough, the Marines had some vulnerability.


I prefer a middle road. They can tank battle cannons and plasma shots, no problems, but it's certainly more than a minor inconvenience to them.

That's hardly a middle road, you're talking about weapons tailor made for killing heavy infantry like Space Marines here...

 Vaktathi wrote:

Doombunny wrote:

This is part of the reason I liked Abnett's Marine book (I forget the name, something about serpents?), because whilst still tough, the Marines had some vulnerability.

Brothers of the Snake? I actually had the opposite reaction. I found it to be a fairly ludicrous over-exaggeration of Marine capabilities. Sending a single Marine to deal with an unknown number of Dark Eldar pirates, or having a single tac squad literally slay thousands of Dark Eldar with no major casualties, etc.

 Ashiraya wrote:


This is part of the reason I liked Abnett's Marine book (I forget the name, something about serpents?), because whilst still tough, the Marines had some vulnerability.


I prefer a middle road. They can tank battle cannons and plasma shots, no problems, but it's certainly more than a minor inconvenience to them.

That's hardly a middle road, you're talking about weapons tailor made for killing heavy infantry like Space Marines here...

Actually, that they are so effective is just because of what you have to compare them to. Lasguns, for example. I consider lasguns functionally uncapable of penetrating power armour, simply lacking the necessary punch. It'll scorch the 'soft' armour, sure, but not penetrate. Not even a hit against the eyeslit is one I expect to penetrate- it will possibly scorch it to the point where the helmet must be discarded but it won't smash through.

If a Space Marine is struck by a plasma shot, what happens depends on several factors:

What kind of plasma shot? Tau? Imperial Guard? CSM? Eldar?

Assuming the shot comes from an Astartes issue MKII 'Ragefire' pattern Plasma Gun, and that the shots hit the breastplate, I'd expect the first shot to melt partway through the armour, the second to almost go all the way through, and then the Marine's body can only take a few more before the Plasma destroys his chest. Melta has similar effects, albeit is less effective due to reduced rate of fire.

I always thought Plasma Guns were functionally similar regardless of user if not identical and they could punch through power armor with ease. Most fluff I've read about Lasguns say they can go through the vulnerable parts of power armor just fine as well.

I suppose it is up to what you believe 40k is, though. I personally consider power armor capable of "tanking" small arms fire with ease but once you start getting into the heavy AT guns like Railguns or Vanquisher cannons... yeah, that'll pulverize the PA and the Astartes within it if gets a good hit.