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 TheCustomLime wrote:
I always thought Plasma Guns were functionally similar regardless of user if not identical and they could punch through power armor with ease. Most fluff I've read about Lasguns say they can go through the vulnerable parts of power armor just fine as well.

I suppose it is up to what you believe 40k is, though.

I have not once encountered any Astartes who took a plasma shot to the center of mass or head and survived. Dodged, sure. Survived? Never.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Brothers of the Snake? I actually had the opposite reaction. I found it to be a fairly ludicrous over-exaggeration of Marine capabilities. Sending a single Marine to deal with an unknown number of Dark Eldar pirates, or having a single tac squad literally slay thousands of Dark Eldar with no major casualties, etc.

Tbh, all I remember from it are the Chaos bits, long time since I read it. I remember the squad being fairly badly handled at one point by a bunch of cultists, and at another point being shot up by some Chaos Marines. Both times they won, but IIRC the end result being that they needed to go replace a sizeable part of the squad. I seem to recall a couple getting knocked off by Orks as well?

 Ashiraya wrote:
I prefer a middle road. They can tank battle cannons and plasma shots, no problems, but it's certainly more than a minor inconvenience to them.

I don't mind them surviving such things, albeit badly wounded/because of some thing getting in the way. It's more when such things are just shrugged off and they continue fighting at full capability/barely reduced that makes me a little bored.

 Ashiraya wrote:


Actually, that they are so effective is just because of what you have to compare them to. Lasguns, for example. I consider lasguns functionally uncapable of penetrating power armour, simply lacking the necessary punch. It'll scorch the 'soft' armour, sure, but not penetrate.

And yet we have fluff of Marines being killed by las/stub guns and things like Mortars (in Storm of Iron for instance a Heresy era veteran siege engineer gets killed by a simple IG mortar). A single lasgun shot probably won't penetrate a breastplate, I won't debate that, but successive shots will likely damage the armor and eventually penetrate. IIRC there's either a gaunts ghosts or Cain book where exactly that happens. We have marines being felled by things like bladed weapons all the time that penetrate through weaker armor like neck joints and whatnot.

If a Space Marine is struck by a plasma shot, what happens depends on several factors:

What kind of plasma shot? Tau? Imperial Guard? CSM? Eldar?

Assuming the shot comes from an Astartes issue MKII 'Ragefire' pattern Plasma Gun, and that the shots hit the breastplate, I'd expect the first shot to melt partway through the armour, the second to almost go all the way through, and then the Marine's body can only take a few more before the Plasma destroys his chest. Melta has similar effects, albeit is less effective due to reduced rate of fire.

Every fluff instance I can recall of a marine taking what in-game would be equivalent to an S6/7 Ap2 shot usually results in a fatal wound or a wound extensive enough to require retirement from battle and subsequent cybernetic rebuilding.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Seriously, this is the 2nd thread you've posted anti-religious talk. Cut it out with your athiest beliefs, this is DakkaDakka, we are trying to talk about 40k. You can stop being ignorant with the amount of BS you spew in a single post.

How about no. I'll criticize any ridiculous beliefs I want, whether it's space marine worship or god worship. After all, it's not like any of those real-world religions are any more plausible than the ones in 40k...

 Ashiraya wrote:
Why do you assume this is only true for the Space Marines?

Maybe the oh-so-great power of the Battle Cannon is just propaganda, and in truth it hits like a wet noodle.

The difference is that we don't see battle cannons doing anything beyond what a real-world tank gun can do. Therefore there is no reason to suspect that its portrayal is inaccurate.

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I see lots of complaints aimed at SM fangirls/boys all over the place. It is very stigmatised.

On the other hand, as I noticed over in the 'Can-SM-take-a-planet' thread, IG fanboys and so on are just as extreme.

Why has this escaped stigma?

Try to follow rule #1 in this, please. I want to analyse the situation and debate the cause and so on, not point fingers and throw insults.

there are more of them than us, in my meta i can count the non sm players on two hands everybody else plays a variant of loyalist sm. IG fans like my self hate the fact that the sm seem to show up for the last 10 minutes and take all the credit (in my opinion). It seems that everybody else is logical and we are 40k's resident donkey-caves and are the dumbassses who take billions of casualties to take a hill. I had a gw worker tell me that sm are the most relatable faction because they experience fear. What? That kind of attitude is why i dont like sm fans. Hey look at my 65 point (not sure on cost, is approximate) 2+5++ saves with a missile launcher. The guy who told me that then ignored me when i told him everything he could buy with it. They come of as stuck up. At least i have the only imperial calvary unit noooooooo wait, they suck, never mind. I feel my buddies can use the 3+ save to cover bad tactics.

That. I. Uhm. Uh, yeaaaaah. That guy should be fired and/or slapped with a Space Marine codex. Just. what. I don't even have a response for that besides what.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Seriously, this is the 2nd thread you've posted anti-religious talk. Cut it out with your athiest beliefs, this is DakkaDakka, we are trying to talk about 40k. You can stop being ignorant with the amount of BS you spew in a single post.

How about no. I'll criticize any ridiculous beliefs I want, whether it's space marine worship or god worship. After all, it's not like any of those real-world religions are any more plausible than the ones in 40k...

Hey come on. Dakkas first rule is to be respectful. If your language is offending people, and are asked to stop, then please be respectful and at least try to keep certain things out of the discussion that dont need to be brought up in the first place.

Your personal attacks on my beliefs don't really phase me in the slightest, as one guy on the internet isn't going to impact my thoughts to the subject at all, but if some are offended by them then just try and tone down the insults. Please.

Do you consider criticism insulting?

 Wyzilla wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
I had a gw worker tell me that sm are the most relatable faction because they experience fear.

That. I. Uhm. Uh, yeaaaaah. That guy should be fired and/or slapped with a Space Marine codex. Just. what. I don't even have a response for that besides what.

"And they shall know some fear...

But not too much... That would kind of ruin the whole super-soldier thing."

Doombunny wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
I had a gw worker tell me that sm are the most relatable faction because they experience fear.

That. I. Uhm. Uh, yeaaaaah. That guy should be fired and/or slapped with a Space Marine codex. Just. what. I don't even have a response for that besides what.

"And they shall know some fear...

But not too much... That would kind of ruin the whole super-soldier thing."

"A tiny bit of fear with afternoon tea..."

 Ashiraya wrote:
Do you consider criticism insulting?

Depends


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Seriously, this is the 2nd thread you've posted anti-religious talk. Cut it out with your athiest beliefs, this is DakkaDakka, we are trying to talk about 40k. You can stop being ignorant with the amount of BS you spew in a single post.

How about no. I'll criticize any ridiculous beliefs I want, whether it's space marine worship or god worship. After all, it's not like any of those real-world religions are any more plausible than the ones in 40k...

 Ashiraya wrote:
Why do you assume this is only true for the Space Marines?

Maybe the oh-so-great power of the Battle Cannon is just propaganda, and in truth it hits like a wet noodle.

The difference is that we don't see battle cannons doing anything beyond what a real-world tank gun can do. Therefore there is no reason to suspect that its portrayal is inaccurate.

It doesn't matter what you think about religion. Can you talk about 40k without trampling peoples beliefs and insulting my intelligence? There was no need for you to say the things you said so stop being an immature piece of work. Debate with a little bit of humility, this is suppose to be a friendly community.

Can we agree that an extreme amount of regard for something that others may find misguided or a "waste of time" is still a matter of opinion?

An opinion may not need to be jammed down someone's throat but presented more moderately at least out of a token attempt of being polite.

Rather brutal and "successful" wars are going on as we speak based on strong beliefs.

Just telling people I am a "Miniature hobbyist" still gets all kinds of strange looks, saying I play "Spaaassss Mahrinesss" makes it worse.

At least the chess set I made for my dad of Lord of the Rings makes his buddies go "Holy crap!" and makes it all OK.

Orks: Fantasy, somewhat ok.
Dark Eldar: Twisted evil, goth stuff.
Necrons: Robots! with a real death/goth thing happening with lots of casket shapes.
Eldar: pretty looking smooth stuff...
Tau: Japanese Anime stomping robots!
Imperial Guard: Looks comfortingly like conventional armies.

Space Marines: guys in armor with guns. Kinda spacey looking.

Dunno, people like to compartmentalize and it makes us feel so much better to make fun of others so marines got the short straw, that is what you get for being the "poster child".

Wyzilla wrote:
I have not once encountered any Astartes who took a plasma shot to the center of mass or head and survived. Dodged, sure. Survived? Never.

Henry Zhou seems rather fond of plasma pistols leaving cute little dents in power armoure to no real effect.

Peregrine wrote:
How about no. I'll criticize any ridiculous beliefs I want, whether it's space marine worship or god worship. After all, it's not like any of those real-world religions are any more plausible than the ones in 40k...

How about you keep your real life religion out of my wargame, thank you very much.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Can you talk about 40k without trampling peoples beliefs and insulting my intelligence?

I didn't insult your intelligence.

There was no need for you to say the things you said so stop being an immature piece of work.

Sure there was. I needed a real-world religion to compare with how the Imperium treats space marines. I used Zeus the first time, Jesus the second time. All three of them are absurd stories that should never be considered literal truth. I was planning to use another god next time, but maybe I'll just keep using Jesus since you seem to like it so much.

There's a difference between being a fan and being a rabid fanboy. The former is usually not looked down upon. The latter usually is.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Can you talk about 40k without trampling peoples beliefs and insulting my intelligence?

I didn't insult your intelligence.

There was no need for you to say the things you said so stop being an immature piece of work.

Sure there was. I needed a real-world religion to compare with how the Imperium treats space marines. I used Zeus the first time, Jesus the second time. All three of them are absurd stories that should never be considered literal truth. I was planning to use another god next time, but maybe I'll just keep using Jesus since you seem to like it so much.

You insulted me plenty in the previous thread.

Well, go ahead and do that then. Your immaturity level is spiking through the roof. What are trying to prove? Trying to show how big and strong a man you are? Im just so done with you.

Tarkin, there's an ignore button for a reason. Just use it before you pop a vein or something.

Peregine, while your christian example was so far out of character for Jesus in the bible as to be an obvious satire, perhaps religious analogy isn't the best way to get your message across?

Naw, I'm fine.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Peregine, while your christian example was so far out of character for Jesus in the bible as to be an obvious satire, perhaps religious analogy isn't the best way to get your message across?

Of course it was the best way, because that's the whole point of my argument: stories about space marines are the equivalent of real-world religious myths. They are, at best, based very loosely on real events that have been wildly exaggerated to make a more impressive myth. But yet, in their respective universes, they are both considered literal truth by the people who believe in those religions. Understanding this is key to understanding how space marine fluff works.

(And I'll once again note that nobody had any problem with my similar example about Zeus killing everything and then having some really kinky sex, so I guess we're just going to continue this ridiculous idea that Christianity is a special snowflake and can't be criticized.)

This is where we stop bringing up the validity of religion in a 40k Background thread. Even if there are parallels, it won't fly and it simply gets threads closed---there are plenty of other forums on the internet that foster that arena of discussion.

Last warning for the thread.

Ryan

edit: post removed upon viewing moderator crosspost.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Try to follow rule #1 in this, please. I want to analyse the situation and debate the cause and so on, not point fingers and throw insults.

:|

 Ashiraya wrote:
I see lots of complaints aimed at SM fangirls/boys all over the place. It is very stigmatised.

On the other hand, as I noticed over in the 'Can-SM-take-a-planet' thread, IG fanboys and so on are just as extreme.

Why has this escaped stigma?

I think the thing is you do not notice all the complaints at jape that you throw at “Not-marine fanboy” (because really, it is not just about IG), but you sure do notice a lot what they throw back at you . Also, has it have been mentioned, plain old jealousy too.
Beside, even between Marine fanboys themselves… I am pretty sure tons of Marines fanboy complain about “Robot Girlyman” and his “Ultrasmurff” being their “spiritual liege”, do they not?

Trust me, you should be happy of getting your stigma rather than our stigma+lack of models+lack of rules+lack of presence in video games+lack of… about everything .

Its the price of being the king of the hill.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
edit: post removed upon viewing moderator crosspost.

Just want to point this out--many times moderators are forced to magically appear when alerts/questionable posts pop up--and some of those times someone has cross posted after an in thread moderator alert was being submitted. Almost no one ever edits their cross post and leaves it in a sense of 'last word'.

Furyou Miko did a very mature (and welcome) thing here, by editing her cross post and helping deescalate the thread. Thanks for that Miko.

Ryan

Her.
I think we should get some way to indicate gender on the forum, next to the username for instance.
That, or changing English usage so that the use of gender-neutral pronoun become the norm .

Hah, thanks and very well put . Changed due to accuracy (and something something, me assuming gender stereotypes in a miniature game site).

I also added this suggestion in the moderator forum--not sure if it's worth Lego doing but definitely worth tossing around.

Thanks,
Ryan

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Her.
I think we should get some way to indicate gender on the forum, next to the username for instance.
That, or changing English usage so that the use of gender-neutral pronoun become the norm .

I think B&C has that. Would be neat, but it most likely regarded as a lot of work for no big gain.

Make a thread in N&B?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Wyzilla wrote:
I have not once encountered any Astartes who took a plasma shot to the center of mass or head and survived. Dodged, sure. Survived? Never.

Henry Zhou seems rather fond of plasma pistols leaving cute little dents in power armoure to no real effect.

Kinda makes you wonder why anyone would carry a weapon which isn't particularly better than a normal Lasgun and yet tries to kill you every so often.

I believe the reason why SM fanboyism is stigmatised because of something that is in geek culture. Geek culture is seen as a counter culture, from what is mainstream culture. So in warhammer community, Space Marines are seen as the mainstream, the most accessible and therefore holding the least geek credibility.

Generally because GW/BL denigrates all other factions in order to make the Space Marines seem special. Sometimes very blatantly and badly so.

Right, such as with "Hurr hurr, your silly plasma does nothing to my power armor!"