Why is SM-fanboyism so stigmatised?

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**A Town Called Malus**

Vaktathi wrote:

In prolonged campaigns where there will be multiple SM chapters and several IG regiments and commanders, the adminastratum will analyze the combat records of all the present leaders and select who is tasked to lead the campaign. Normally, Marneus Calgar always wins that hehe

Again, he has special status being an Imperial Commander who would be entitled to command PDF and IG forces.

Otherwise SM's need to be given permission to give orders to the IG, and IG forces need to be ordered to recognize orders from SM's. Sometimes does happen, but the SM's can't just show up and start issuing orders if the IG doesn't want to take them after the Horus Heresy.

Don't a lot of IG not know of the traitor legions? Pretty sure it's a secret that some legions went rogue as it would destroy morale and the legend of marines all being saviours and completely loyal. It's a "need-to-know" kind of thing.

So if Space Marines could turn up and give orders, no questions asked, then there wouldn't be anything to stop one of the less mutated/psychotic traitor warbands/legions showing up and commandeering an IG battalion.

**TheCustomLime**

Without context I cannot really comment on that but that is a bit silly. I am still firm in my belief that "Marines are OP Badasses" is more of the norm, though.

**Void__Dragon**

Psienesis wrote:
Generally because GW/BL denigrates all other factions in order to make the Space Marines seem special. Sometimes very blatantly and badly so.

Right, compared to when Imhotek embarrassed the chapter master of one of the most martial combat-centered chapters in the Imperium in martial combat.

**Lord Tarkin**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Lord Tarkin wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
I see lots of complaints aimed at SM fangirls/boys all over the place. It is very stigmatised.

On the other hand, as I noticed over in the 'Can-SM-take-a-planet' thread, IG fanboys and so on are just as extreme.

Why has this escaped stigma?

Try to follow rule #1 in this, please. I want to analyse the situation and debate the cause and so on, not point fingers and throw insults.

Because non-Marine players are jealous of Marines. That's the only reason.

Yup

Nope. Because some raving marine fanboys will, in my experience, get stroppy when they lose because "that's not how it would happen in the fluff!"

Actually, yes, if a squad of 10 marines tried running over open ground at a unit of Crisis suits packing plasma and supported by pathfinders then they would all be killed to a man.

And yes, your librarian in terminator armour standing on his own would be turned into a fine, red mist when three solid shot railguns punched through his chest.

Basically the fluff has given marines ridiculous amounts of plot armour that cannot be replicated on the tabletop without breaking the game. This results in some (not, by any stretch, all) marine fans crying that the tabletop game is not an accurate representation of the fluff when in fact it is the fluff that is not accurate due to author bias. They're fine with Bolters cutting down swathes of power armoured chaos marines but apparently their power armour should be capable of shrugging off dedicated anti-armour weaponry.

Most other armies don't have that kind of protection. Their standard soldiers are never portrayed as invincible, their elite soldiers are very rarely portrayed as invincible. This means that players of those armies typically have a bit less of the plot armour expectation.

These kind of interactions tend to stick in the mind a bit more than the times when you had a cool discussion with the marine player about the pros and cons of power armour, teminator armour and the XV8 battlesuit.

Haha, marines can die so easy in certain instances. Like you said, a terminator can easily be vaped by a railgun. A terminator can also be killed by a Tyranid warrior despite what some of my friends say. A marine can be shot dead by Tau pulse rifles too, all the time actually. Its how it is.

However, I just don't think its possible for cavemen to beat a SM to death with clubs as some morons claim on another thread.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I hate plot armour. Hate it. How do SM's slaughter CSM's and lose far less men? Ridiculous.

**Vaktathi**

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Don't a lot of IG not know of the traitor legions? Pretty sure it's a secret that some legions went rogue as it would destroy morale and the legend of marines all being saviours and completely loyal. It's a "need-to-know" kind of thing.

So if Space Marines could turn up and give orders, no questions asked, then there wouldn't be anything to stop one of the less mutated/psychotic traitor warbands/legions showing up and commandeering an IG battalion.

While true that most IG troops wouldn't know anything of the Heresy, it's not necessarily relevant. The breakup of the Legions also cleaved their command from the Imperial Army as it too was split into the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy. Before that the SM's directly commanded Imperial Army units. After the Codex Astartes was imposed on the Space Marines, they no longer had authority over the Imperial Guard or the Imperial Navy.

**Lord Tarkin**

And tabletop is not meant to be accurate, its suppose to be a fun friendly game. Any marine player crying about a tactical marine not being able to massacre 300 tyranid hormagaunts need to have reality check. Get a video game for that, tyranid players arent gonna set up hundreds of hundreds of models to be removed as soon as they move 6 inches

**Psienesis**

However, I just don't think its possible for cavemen to beat a SM to death with clubs as some morons claim on another thread.

Take that up with Dan Abnett. A troop of 5 CSM were killed by Gaunt and a handful of his troops, and a tribe of naked savages with primitive bows and arrows.

**Wyzilla**

Void__Dragon wrote:
TheCustomLime wrote:
Not until you read Black Library bolter-porn that is. Then you'll see why people think that Games Workshop make Space Marines out to be the best there ever was. I don't know if such novels are in the majority but they sure speak the loudest on this forum.

Yet Gaunt's Ghosts, a guardsman book, has a Marine dying like an ostrich to a single shot from a Guardsman's lasgun. Yet Marine fans complain far less often about this than any random Marine exploit in some novel. It seems the Marine fanboys are the more mature.

Also it should be noted that in that book, that CSM was also shot full of a feth ton of poison that was designed to kill marines, survived and got beat up in melee as well IIRC before he finally died to a hotshot.

(And I recall the Ghost's hotshots to be some super special type on top of that.)

**Psienesis**

The poison was not designed to kill Marines. The tribesmen had always lived there, and had never previously encountered a Space Marine. It was just a particularly-potent poison.

**Void__Dragon**

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Most other armies don't have that kind of protection. Their standard soldiers are never portrayed as invincible, their elite soldiers are very rarely portrayed as invincible. This means that players of those armies typically have a bit less of the plot armour expectation.

Ciaphas Cain shows up Khornate Berzerkers in martial combat.

He has plot armour that would humble Roboute Guilliman.

**Wyzilla**

Psienesis wrote:
The poison was not designed to kill Marines. The tribesmen had always lived there, and had never previously encountered a Space Marine. It was just a particularly-potent poison.

-shrug-

Still evens out. I always find it funny how people say "he was felled by a lasgun" while in reality the poor bastard got fethed up fairly good, the lasgun was just the finish.

**Doombunny**

Void__Dragon wrote:
Yet Gaunt's Ghosts, a guardsman book, has a Marine dying like an ostrich to a single shot from a Guardsman's lasgun. Yet Marine fans complain far less often about this than any random Marine exploit in some novel. It seems the Marine fanboys are the more mature.

Which book was this in?

**Void__Dragon**

Wyzilla wrote:

Yet Gaunt's Ghosts, a guardsman book, has a Marine dying like an ostrich to a single shot from a Guardsman's lasgun. Yet Marine fans complain far less often about this than any random Marine exploit in some novel. It seems the Marine fanboys are the more mature.

Also it should be noted that in that book, that CSM was also shot full of a feth ton of poison that was designed to kill marines, survived and got beat up in melee as well IIRC before he finally died to a hotshot.

(And I recall the Ghost's hotshots to be some super special type on top of that.)

**Lord Tarkin**

Vaktathi wrote:
Lord Tarkin wrote:

Actually, yes, SM's take command over IG all the time. Look at Marneus, his very appearance demands the respect and recognition as a commanding officer in almost every scenario he's placed.
As I noted, he has a position as an Imperial Commander that most SM's lack (which is curious given that it was Calgar that cleaved the SM's from the IG in the first place...) which *does* mean he has a place in the IG command structure.

In the heat of battle, things look different. An IG captain can command an entire SM squad though in most cases that IG captain will draw upon the SM sergeants combat knowledge since he's been fighting the enemies of the Imperium before he was even born.
...maaaaybe? Not all SM's are ancient centuries old warriors. Hell, if a chapter is losing more than a few SM's a year they'll be extinct in a couple of decades. Let's not forget that many Imperial officers have decades of experience themselves. The IG captain may take their advice into consideration, but probably not take direct orders, especially as the SM sergeant probably has little if any experience in commanding larger formations like platoons, companies, or battalions.

In the case that an IG captain and a SM captain find themselves together, Adeptus Astartes almost always cancel the other out.
What do you mean by "cancel out"?

In prolonged campaigns where there will be multiple SM chapters and several IG regiments and commanders, the adminastratum will analyze the combat records of all the present leaders and select who is tasked to lead the campaign. Normally, Marneus Calgar always wins that hehe

Again, he has special status being an Imperial Commander who would be entitled to command PDF and IG forces.

Otherwise SM's need to be given permission to give orders to the IG, and IG forces need to be ordered to recognize orders from SM's. Sometimes does happen, but the SM's can't just show up and start issuing orders if the IG doesn't want to take them after the Horus Heresy.

A SM sergeant cannot instruct or order an IG captain. I just said the captain will take advantage of the SM sergeant standing at his side and pick his brain. A SM sergeant will allow the captain to command his men and direct formations.

By cancel out I mean a SM captain will have leadership over a guard captain.

**Void__Dragon**

Doombunny wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:
Yet Gaunt's Ghosts, a guardsman book, has a Marine dying like an ostrich to a single shot from a Guardsman's lasgun. Yet Marine fans complain far less often about this than any random Marine exploit in some novel. It seems the Marine fanboys are the more mature.

Which book was this in?

Literally the first one. The Marine not wearing a helmet (Naturally), and having his head blown off by a guy who turned his lasgun's power up all the way.

Now, this would probably happen in the fluff (A high-powered lasgun killing a helmet-less marine), but it's a contrived scenario designed to give the Imperial Guard superiority. Bringing Marines down to the level of big mooks.

**Lord Tarkin**

Psienesis wrote:
However, I just don't think its possible for cavemen to beat a SM to death with clubs as some morons claim on another thread.

Take that up with Dan Abnett. A troop of 5 CSM were killed by Gaunt and a handful of his troops, and a tribe of naked savages with primitive bows and arrows.

Uhhh...umm, just a bit speechless atm

**A Town Called Malus**

Void__Dragon wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:

Most other armies don't have that kind of protection. Their standard soldiers are never portrayed as invincible, their elite soldiers are very rarely portrayed as invincible. This means that players of those armies typically have a bit less of the plot armour expectation.

Ciaphas Cain shows up Khornate Berzerkers in martial combat.

He has plot armour that would humble Roboute Guilliman.

Ciaphas Cain fought a single chaos berzerker in combat and didn't show it up. He managed to survive until Jurgen put a Melta shot into it.

Cain was a brilliant swordsman. Would you say that an Inquisitor should not be able to fight a single Berzerker in close combat? Because Amberley Vail described Cain as an exceptional swordsman. Not an exceptional swordsman for an imperial guard officer, but flat out exceptional.

**Lord Tarkin**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:

Most other armies don't have that kind of protection. Their standard soldiers are never portrayed as invincible, their elite soldiers are very rarely portrayed as invincible. This means that players of those armies typically have a bit less of the plot armour expectation.

Ciaphas Cain shows up Khornate Berzerkers in martial combat.

He has plot armour that would humble Roboute Guilliman.

Ciaphas Cain fought a single chaos berzerker in combat and didn't show it up. He managed to survive until Jurgen put a Melta shot into it.

Cain was a brilliant swordsman. Would you say that an Inquisitor should not be able to fight a single Berzerker in close combat? Because Amberley Vail described Cain as an exceptional swordsman.

Sounds alright. Not like he was slaughtering Berzerkers. I wouldn't be surprised if he had completely killed one.

**Doombunny**

Void__Dragon wrote:
Doombunny wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:
Yet Gaunt's Ghosts, a guardsman book, has a Marine dying like an ostrich to a single shot from a Guardsman's lasgun. Yet Marine fans complain far less often about this than any random Marine exploit in some novel. It seems the Marine fanboys are the more mature.

Which book was this in?
Literally the first one. The Marine not wearing a helmet (Naturally), and having his head blown off by a guy who turned his lasgun's power up all the way.

Now, this would probably happen in the fluff (A high-powered lasgun killing a helmet-less marine), but it's a contrived scenario designed to give the Imperial Guard superiority. Bringing Marines down to the level of big mooks.

The Marines not wearing helmets is incredibly stupid, but it isn't just limited to 'anti-Marine' fluff. Lots of fluff has Marines helmetless, for some reason or another. A lot of the models also lack helmets. I wouldn't say it was specially contrived to kill to Marine.

I seem to recall Marines being generally rather hard to kill in Gaunt's Ghosts. IIRC the few that do get brought down are killed by either massed firepower or powerful weaponry. Like getting a sack of demo charges detonated around their neck, or being sliced with a power sword.

**Psienesis**

Eisenhorn gets his ass handed to him by some Slaaneshi Marine, and wins only when the guy gets mind-jumped by a Chaos relic.

**Vaktathi**

Lord Tarkin wrote:

A SM sergeant cannot instruct or order an IG captain. I just said the captain will take advantage of the SM sergeant standing at his side and pick his brain. A SM sergeant will allow the captain to command his men and direct formations.

yeah he might take advice, but that's what NCO's are for, he'd do the same of his own sergeants as well.

By cancel out I mean a SM captain will have leadership over a guard captain.

Again, not since the Heresy aside from a couple exceptions. The SM's were barred from directly commanding IG forces except in special circumstances since then. That was part of the whole "Imperial army becomes Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, and Space Marine Legions become Chapters" breakup after the heresy when the Codex Astartes was imposed on the Space Marines.

**Void__Dragon**

Psienesis wrote:
Eisenhorn gets his ass handed to him by some Slaaneshi Marine, and wins only when the guy gets mind-jumped by a Chaos relic.

When he was still green, yeah.

Old man Eisenhorn cuts through Marines like a hot knife through butter.

I don't really have a problem with this, but the claims of SM favoritism in the fluff ignore all the times they are killed off to show how cool someone else is.

**Wyzilla**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:

Most other armies don't have that kind of protection. Their standard soldiers are never portrayed as invincible, their elite soldiers are very rarely portrayed as invincible. This means that players of those armies typically have a bit less of the plot armour expectation.

Ciaphas Cain shows up Khornate Berzerkers in martial combat.

He has plot armour that would humble Roboute Guilliman.

Ciaphas Cain fought a single chaos berzerker in combat and didn't show it up. He managed to survive until Jurgen put a Melta shot into it.

Cain was a brilliant swordsman. Would you say that an Inquisitor should not be able to fight a single Berzerker in close combat? Because Amberley Vail described Cain as an exceptional swordsman. Not an exceptional swordsman for an imperial guard officer, but flat out exceptional.

It should also be noted that Cain wears more plot armor than the Ultramarines, to the point that he might as well be wearing the Ultramarines themselves.

**Void__Dragon**

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Ciaphas Cain fought a single chaos berzerker in combat and didn't show it up. He managed to survive until Jurgen put a Melta shot into it.

Cain was a brilliant swordsman. Would you say that an Inquisitor should not be able to fight a single Berzerker in close combat? Because Amberley Vail described Cain as an exceptional swordsman. Not an exceptional swordsman for an imperial guard officer, but flat out exceptional.

That's not the story I've heard.

Probably not most inquisitors, no. In 40k though it's certainly possible, because 40k humans run on charles atlas superpower. It's the same reason Harker can strangle a Ravener with his bare hands.

**Furyou Miko**

Lord Tarkin wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
However, I just don't think its possible for cavemen to beat a SM to death with clubs as some morons claim on another thread.

Take that up with Dan Abnett. A troop of 5 CSM were killed by Gaunt and a handful of his troops, and a tribe of naked savages with primitive bows and arrows.

Uhhh...umm, just a bit speechless atm

What people fail to mention when discussing this incident is that the "naked savages with primitive bows" were actually wielding Reynbows - which are stated to be magnetic induction weapons.

Despite the traction that the primitive bows argument has, the Nitegane aren't actually that primitive. Other magnetic induction weapons in the setting include Needlers... and railguns.

**Psienesis**

Most major characters are layered in so much plot armor that it becomes absolutely ridiculous. Cain, in particular, is so over-the-top it causes me to think tales of his exploits are nothing more than Imperial propaganda, and that, in-universe, there is no such person as Ciaphas Cain. He's a caricature dreamt up by some Imperial Guard Officer of Propaganda and Psychological Warfare.

**Lord Tarkin**

Vaktathi wrote:
Lord Tarkin wrote:

A SM sergeant cannot instruct or order an IG captain. I just said the captain will take advantage of the SM sergeant standing at his side and pick his brain. A SM sergeant will allow the captain to command his men and direct formations.
yeah he might take advice, but that's what NCO's are for, he'd do the same of his own sergeants as well.

By cancel out I mean a SM captain will have leadership over a guard captain.

Again, not since the Heresy aside from a couple exceptions. The SM's were barred from directly commanding IG forces except in special circumstances since then. That was part of the whole "Imperial army becomes Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, and Space Marine Legions become Chapters" breakup after the heresy when the Codex Astartes was imposed on the Space Marines.

Higher ranking SM's can surely command IG. Keep in mind the heresy is on "hush hush" and most people are completelg unaware such events occured.

**Psienesis**

What people fail to mention when discussing this incident is that the "naked savages with primitive bows" were actually wielding Reynbows - which are stated to be magnetic induction weapons.

Not all of them, just some of them. The tribals possessed some archaeotech relics (as Eszrah had) but not every single tribal was so armed.

It should also be noted that the CSM killed them in droves, too.

**A Town Called Malus**

Lord Tarkin wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Lord Tarkin wrote:

A SM sergeant cannot instruct or order an IG captain. I just said the captain will take advantage of the SM sergeant standing at his side and pick his brain. A SM sergeant will allow the captain to command his men and direct formations.
yeah he might take advice, but that's what NCO's are for, he'd do the same of his own sergeants as well.

By cancel out I mean a SM captain will have leadership over a guard captain.

Again, not since the Heresy aside from a couple exceptions. The SM's were barred from directly commanding IG forces except in special circumstances since then. That was part of the whole "Imperial army becomes Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, and Space Marine Legions become Chapters" breakup after the heresy when the Codex Astartes was imposed on the Space Marines.

Higher ranking SM's can surely command IG. Keep in mind the heresy is on "hush hush" and most people are completelg unaware such events occured.

Hence why IG chain of command would have strict rules about when Space Marines can give orders to Guard officers.

Otherwise you end up with the situation of Abaddon turning up at some IG bases and commandeering whole IG regiments who follow him no questions asked as he's a space marine.

**Lord Tarkin**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Lord Tarkin wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
However, I just don't think its possible for cavemen to beat a SM to death with clubs as some morons claim on another thread.

Take that up with Dan Abnett. A troop of 5 CSM were killed by Gaunt and a handful of his troops, and a tribe of naked savages with primitive bows and arrows.

Uhhh...umm, just a bit speechless atm

What people fail to mention when discussing this incident is that the "naked savages with primitive bows" were actually wielding Reynbows - which are stated to be magnetic induction weapons.

Despite the traction that the primitive bows argument has, the Nitegane aren't actually that primitive. Other magnetic induction weapons in the setting include Needlers... and railguns.

Well, I'm going to have to read that book to fully understand what's being talked about but I am sure these people must not have bee as primitive as usual.