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 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

A SM sergeant cannot instruct or order an IG captain. I just said the captain will take advantage of the SM sergeant standing at his side and pick his brain. A SM sergeant will allow the captain to command his men and direct formations.

yeah he might take advice, but that's what NCO's are for, he'd do the same of his own sergeants as well.

By cancel out I mean a SM captain will have leadership over a guard captain.

Again, not since the Heresy aside from a couple exceptions. The SM's were barred from directly commanding IG forces except in special circumstances since then. That was part of the whole "Imperial army becomes Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, and Space Marine Legions become Chapters" breakup after the heresy when the Codex Astartes was imposed on the Space Marines.

Higher ranking SM's can surely command IG. Keep in mind the heresy is on "hush hush" and most people are completelg unaware such events occured.

Most IG soldiers will follow the orders of a SM because the SM is the great-grandson of the God-Emperor Himself. This is not to say that the SM has a place in the IG's chain-of-command. However, Space Marines do not automatically take command of all Imperial military forces in a theater of operations. The top-brass of the IG, Navy and other Imperial factions may elect to appoint a given Space Marine (most likely a Chapter Master, if present) as overall commander, given that he has centuries of experience and study on the nature of war... but this is not a guarantee, nor is it automatically done.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

A SM sergeant cannot instruct or order an IG captain. I just said the captain will take advantage of the SM sergeant standing at his side and pick his brain. A SM sergeant will allow the captain to command his men and direct formations.

yeah he might take advice, but that's what NCO's are for, he'd do the same of his own sergeants as well.

By cancel out I mean a SM captain will have leadership over a guard captain.

Again, not since the Heresy aside from a couple exceptions. The SM's were barred from directly commanding IG forces except in special circumstances since then. That was part of the whole "Imperial army becomes Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, and Space Marine Legions become Chapters" breakup after the heresy when the Codex Astartes was imposed on the Space Marines.

Higher ranking SM's can surely command IG. Keep in mind the heresy is on "hush hush" and most people are completelg unaware such events occured.

Hence why IG chain of command would have strict rules about when Space Marines can give orders to Guard officers.

Otherwise you end up with the situation of Abaddon turning up at some IG bases and commandeering whole IG regiments who follow him no questions asked as he's a space marine.

I didn't say any SM could walk up to a IG base and take immediate command.

It would have been impossible for Abaddon to do such a thing as he would have to present his rank and Chapter, which he cannot do because he belongs to no chapter.

Psienesis wrote:Most major characters are layered in so much plot armor that it becomes absolutely ridiculous. Cain, in particular, is so over-the-top it causes me to think tales of his exploits are nothing more than Imperial propaganda, and that, in-universe, there is no such person as Ciaphas Cain. He's a caricature dreamt up by some Imperial Guard Officer of Propaganda and Psychological Warfare.

Oh... snap.

Lord Tarkin wrote:
Higher ranking SM's can surely command IG. Keep in mind the heresy is on "hush hush" and most people are completely unaware such events occurred.

You seem to be confusing what the Imperial law says with what actually happens.

Space Marines are not allowed to commandeer Imperial Guard armies under the edicts of the High Lords of Terra. Most books show this quite accurately.

Often, however, less protagonistic Imperial Guard commanders will see the Space Marine throwing his weight around and order their men: "Yeah, listen to the Astartes. He has no legal right to command us, but do you want to argue with him?"

 Psienesis wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

A SM sergeant cannot instruct or order an IG captain. I just said the captain will take advantage of the SM sergeant standing at his side and pick his brain. A SM sergeant will allow the captain to command his men and direct formations.

yeah he might take advice, but that's what NCO's are for, he'd do the same of his own sergeants as well.

By cancel out I mean a SM captain will have leadership over a guard captain.

Again, not since the Heresy aside from a couple exceptions. The SM's were barred from directly commanding IG forces except in special circumstances since then. That was part of the whole "Imperial army becomes Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, and Space Marine Legions become Chapters" breakup after the heresy when the Codex Astartes was imposed on the Space Marines.

Higher ranking SM's can surely command IG. Keep in mind the heresy is on "hush hush" and most people are completelg unaware such events occured.

Most IG soldiers will follow the orders of a SM because the SM is the great-grandson of the God-Emperor Himself. This is not to say that the SM has a place in the IG's chain-of-command. However, Space Marines do not automatically take command of all Imperial military forces in a theater of operations. The top-brass of the IG, Navy and other Imperial factions may elect to appoint a given Space Marine (most likely a Chapter Master, if present) as overall commander, given that he has centuries of experience and study on the nature of war... but this is not a guarantee, nor is it automatically done.

A SM can never to permanent command over IG. It is exactly how you just said it. A SM captain can take temporary command over a guard captain and his men but only until a higher ranking Guardsmen is present.

I read about Uriel Ventris and a guard colonel and though the colonel had command he still followed the command of the 200 year veteran Uriel Ventris. It all depends you know


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

A SM sergeant cannot instruct or order an IG captain. I just said the captain will take advantage of the SM sergeant standing at his side and pick his brain. A SM sergeant will allow the captain to command his men and direct formations.

yeah he might take advice, but that's what NCO's are for, he'd do the same of his own sergeants as well.

By cancel out I mean a SM captain will have leadership over a guard captain.

Again, not since the Heresy aside from a couple exceptions. The SM's were barred from directly commanding IG forces except in special circumstances since then. That was part of the whole "Imperial army becomes Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, and Space Marine Legions become Chapters" breakup after the heresy when the Codex Astartes was imposed on the Space Marines.

Higher ranking SM's can surely command IG. Keep in mind the heresy is on "hush hush" and most people are completelg unaware such events occured.

Most IG soldiers will follow the orders of a SM because the SM is the great-grandson of the God-Emperor Himself. This is not to say that the SM has a place in the IG's chain-of-command. However, Space Marines do not automatically take command of all Imperial military forces in a theater of operations. The top-brass of the IG, Navy and other Imperial factions may elect to appoint a given Space Marine (most likely a Chapter Master, if present) as overall commander, given that he has centuries of experience and study on the nature of war... but this is not a guarantee, nor is it automatically done.

A SM can never take permanent command over IG. It is exactly how you just said it. A SM captain can take temporary command over a guard captain and his men but only until a higher ranking Guardsmen is present.

I read about Uriel Ventris and a guard colonel and though the colonel had command he still followed the command of the 200 year veteran Uriel Ventris. It all depends you know

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Higher ranking SM's can surely command IG.

Again no (unless command is given to the SM's by higher IG command), just as they cannot command the Imperial Navy either, nor can they operate in Legion sized forces. That was all part of the post-heresy reorganizations.

Keep in mind the heresy is on "hush hush" and most people are completelg unaware such events occured.

yes the HH events themselves are hush-hush, the administrative changes made since then are not.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Higher ranking SM's can surely command IG.

Again no (unless command is given to the SM's by higher IG command), just as they cannot command the Imperial Navy either, nor can they operate in Legion sized forces. That was all part of the post-heresy reorganizations.

Keep in mind the heresy is on "hush hush" and most people are completelg unaware such events occured.

yes the HH events themselves are hush-hush, the administrative changes made since then are not.

Alright, lets just agree to disagree. I have a different viewpoint than you and we'll leave it at that.

Well, ok sure, but it simply is a thing that is true.

Space Marines can give orders to their chapter and their thralls. Other Imperial forces, be they Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle, other Space Marine chapters, Rogue Traders, Inquisitorial forces, the Imperial Navy, etc are only at their command if those other forces *choose* to place themselves under their command (or can otherwise be cajoled, threatened, etc).

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Ciaphas Cain shows up Khornate Berzerkers in martial combat.

He has plot armour that would humble Roboute Guilliman.

That is not plot armor. He is just that good. Deal with it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Ciaphas Cain shows up Khornate Berzerkers in martial combat.

He has plot armour that would humble Roboute Guilliman.

That is not plot armor. He is just that good. Deal with it.

Except Cain isn't that good, his entire career is simple luck. It's part of the reason why some people suspect he's an Imperial Saint or something like it.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Space Marines can give orders to their chapter and their thralls. Other Imperial forces, be they Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle, other Space Marine chapters, Rogue Traders, Inquisitorial forces, the Imperial Navy, etc are only at their command if those other forces *choose* to place themselves under their command (or can otherwise be cajoled, threatened, etc).

Far as I've understood it other Imperial forces will happily consult a well-known marine and listen to his suggestions, but marines actually WANTING to command others than their battle-brothers is pretty rare. As the Canoness filing a report on the Flesh Tearers at Armageddon said - with over a century of command experience she wasn't surprised that Chapter Master Seth offered her no counsel, she's used to that from marines.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except Cain isn't that good, his entire career is simple luck. It's part of the reason why some people suspect he's an Imperial Saint or something like it.

I read the books. Well, those I have found anyway, so the 3/4 firsts books in a big omnibus. He is that good. Your brain just cannot comprehend such level of awesomeness and therefore rejects it, pretending for it to be propaganda, or luck, or anything. But he is that good, and even better actually.

Why do I suddenly get urges to marry Void__Dragon?

You got yourself a fangirl, Mr. C'tan. ^____________________________________________________________________________________^

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Ciaphas Cain shows up Khornate Berzerkers in martial combat.

He has plot armour that would humble Roboute Guilliman.

That is not plot armor. He is just that good. Deal with it.

Except Cain isn't that good, his entire career is simple luck. It's part of the reason why some people suspect he's an Imperial Saint or something like it.

Cain is not just lucky. Combat was one of the few things he did actually bother studying as not knowing how to fight is the quickest way to get killed if a fight finds you.

He may be a coward but he also understands that there may be times when he might have to fight to survive and he'd like to keep on living.

Cain-fanboys spotted.

I'm a fan of Cain myself. Great light reading to amuse me between classes. I loved the shier amount of ridiculousness that man could get himself into.

Errr Screw Cain.

FOR CHAOS!

 Ashiraya wrote:
Cain-fanboys spotted.

Cain has no fanboy. Those people that you call fanboys are just people that downplay his abilities a little less than usual .


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Some people think that Cain is a reincarnation of the Emperor. They are wrong. At some point, Cain decided that it would be better for his survival to travel back in time, create a bunch of super-powerful idiots, send them in space, create 20 armies of super-soldiers, conquer the whole galaxy, have half of his idiot primarch rebel, and use that excuse to go into that time traveling+healing machine that brought him back to the 42th millenium.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Errr Screw Cain.

FOR CHAOS!

This. My daily happy reading is more preferred to the the Talos Trilogy and books like it. Reading about Night Lords horribly butchering and terrorizing chapter serfs just brings a smile to my face. Plus well written sociopaths are always interesting.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Errr Screw Cain.

FOR CHAOS!

This. My daily happy reading is more preferred to the the Talos Trilogy and books like it. Reading about Night Lords horribly butchering and terrorizing chapter serfs just brings a smile to my face. Plus well written sociopaths are always interesting.

I agree. LONG LIVE TALOS VALCORAN!

How bout dem 4th company Ultras being slaughtered and pinned to the front of our Rhinos? May Idaeus burn for all eternity, and his decadent brethren.

The internet hates everything that's popular. If Eldar were the best selling 40k army then forums would be full of scorn and derision for these "mary sues" and "elves IN SPESS". But Space Marines are the most popular, so they're labeled with all sorts of nonsense. None of it is true, they're an army just like any other. If you don't like them then of course that's cool, but generalizing them or the people who collect them is just wrong.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Why do I suddenly get urges to marry Void__Dragon?

You got yourself a fangirl, Mr. C'tan. ^____________________________________________________________________________________^

It's probably my blunt, sophisticated wit, and my classy avatar.

KommissarKarl wrote:
The internet hates everything that's popular. If Eldar were the best selling 40k army then forums would be full of scorn and derision for these "mary sues" and "elves IN SPESS". But Space Marines are the most popular, so they're labeled with all sorts of nonsense. None of it is true, they're an army just like any other. If you don't like them then of course that's cool, but generalizing them or the people who collect them is just wrong.

Cheers. People should collect what they want without being judged.

I am also firmly of the belief that Necron Living Metal is capable of self-repairing almost any damage, including partial melting.

I rarely get criticised for this, for some reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Why do I suddenly get urges to marry Void__Dragon?

You got yourself a fangirl, Mr. C'tan. ^____________________________________________________________________________________^

It's probably my blunt, sophisticated wit, and my classy avatar.

Where is your avatar from?

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am also firmly of the belief that Necron Living Metal is capable of self-repairing almost any damage, including partial melting.

I rarely get criticised for this, for some reason.

That's because it's pretty much true.

Where is your avatar from?

Why that's Dudley, from Street Fighter (4, specifically).

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Higher ranking SM's can surely command IG.

Again no (unless command is given to the SM's by higher IG command), just as they cannot command the Imperial Navy either, nor can they operate in Legion sized forces. That was all part of the post-heresy reorganizations.

Keep in mind the heresy is on "hush hush" and most people are completelg unaware such events occured.

yes the HH events themselves are hush-hush, the administrative changes made since then are not.

Alright, lets just agree to disagree. I have a different viewpoint than you and we'll leave it at that.

Normally I am a big fan of this line, ending an argument that cannot be settled before anyone's feelings are hurt.

BUT while there are a great many things in this background that can be healthily debated, this is not one of them. Imperial Law states that there must be a separation of Astartes and Guard hierarchies. Fact. Therefore, marines cannot simply take over Guard forces, regardless of their rank. Sure, they will many times defer to their experience, but they do not have to.

In fact as an extreme example, a Space Marine Chapter Master has absolutely zero authority over a lowly Imperial Guardsmen. The Guardsmen would be disobeying no orders or be subject to any retribution by Imperial Law should he refuse to answer to the marine (of course I'm sure his CO would have something to say to him for making him look like a fool)

 Vaktathi wrote:
Well, ok sure, but it simply is a thing that is true.

Space Marines can give orders to their chapter and their thralls. Other Imperial forces, be they Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle, other Space Marine chapters, Rogue Traders, Inquisitorial forces, the Imperial Navy, etc are only at their command if those other forces *choose* to place themselves under their command (or can otherwise be cajoled, threatened, etc).

One of these things is not an Imperial Force.

Though I'll be honest, I actually do enjoy space marines I just don't much like the fanboyism (I even enjoy UM )

On necrodermis: "The material is also adaptive in some unknown fashion and can learn to repair itself given enough time from nearly any form of damage, even a blast powerful enough to reduce it to its constituent molecules or atoms."

-Quothe the wiki

Space Marines are cool dudes. My friends thought that Space Marines were all there was to the hobby before I showed them otherwise. In a number of cases, its the current prevalance of big dudes in power armor geing super manly and hardcore. In others, its that they're over-represented in comparison to everything else.

I like 'em well enough. I'm gonna' focus on Necrons after Dark Vengeance. I'm not exactly broken up about Dark Angels being in Dark Vengeance, though. Actually, they look pretty damn cool and that's always a plus.

 Ignatius wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Higher ranking SM's can surely command IG.

Again no (unless command is given to the SM's by higher IG command), just as they cannot command the Imperial Navy either, nor can they operate in Legion sized forces. That was all part of the post-heresy reorganizations.

Keep in mind the heresy is on "hush hush" and most people are completelg unaware such events occured.

yes the HH events themselves are hush-hush, the administrative changes made since then are not.

Alright, lets just agree to disagree. I have a different viewpoint than you and we'll leave it at that.

Normally I am a big fan of this line, ending an argument that cannot be settled before anyone's feelings are hurt.

BUT while there are a great many things in this background that can be healthily debated, this is not one of them. Imperial Law states that there must be a separation of Astartes and Guard hierarchies. Fact. Therefore, marines cannot simply take over Guard forces, regardless of their rank. Sure, they will many times defer to their experience, but they do not have to.

In fact as an extreme example, a Space Marine Chapter Master has absolutely zero authority over a lowly Imperial Guardsmen. The Guardsmen would be disobeying no orders or be subject to any retribution by Imperial Law should he refuse to answer to the marine (of course I'm sure his CO would have something to say to him for making him look like a fool)

All I was saying was that most of the time SM's are often drawed upon by IG for their more abundant military knowledge (not that a human can't be an absolute military expert like Lord Solar Macharius). In order for one branch of military to take command of another, the administratum must first analyze the situation and approve of it.

Example: Marneus Calgar and his Ultramarines are going alongside three other SM chapters and 5 IG regiments to wage a war on an ork empire. All the commanding officers involved will be examined and the 13 high lords of terra will choose who they deem fitting to lead the campaign. Lets say its calgar by then, it is now law that you follow the orders of Chaptet Master Marneus Augustus mother frakking Calgar of the Ultramarines.

Adeptus Astartes have no formal authority over the Guard or other Imperial institutions in general. The reverse is true but they will generally cooperate with each other so that a campaign will go smoothy. A Captain will request for Guard support when needed and a Guard colonel can request that the Marines go destroy a certain target to assist the war effort.

Okay then. I agree with your post and I apologize for taking it a different and apparently incorrect way! Carry on