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Post by: Frazzled
Wow, competing with LA for most murders over a weekend. I guess its good to have a goal.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-fourth-of-july-toll-82-shot-14-of-them-fatally-in-chicago-20140707,0,5439185.story
Fourth of July weekend toll: 82 shot, 14 of them fatally, in Chicago
10:39 a.m. CDT, July 7, 2014
For 10 minutes, it seemed like the shooting was everywhere in the South Chicago neighborhood.
It started when someone shot and wounded a couple, then two people fired at the shooter, then there was a chase and shots exchanged and a man sitting on a porch was hit. Responding officers kept cutting each other off on their radios as they reported other gunfire in the area late Sunday night and early Monday morning.
Then the heavy equipment rolled in: A helicopter and SUVs packed with lockers of rifles. SWAT teams in green coveralls patrolled the streets with uniformed officers.
It was just one of dozens of shooting scenes across Chicago over the long Fourth of July weekend. In all, at least 82 people were shot, 14 of them fatally, since Thursday afternoon when two woman were shot as they sat outside a two-flat within a block of Garfield Park.
Five of the people were shot by police over 36 hours on Friday and Saturday, including two boys 14 and 16 who were killed when they allegedly refused to drop their guns.
Many of the long weekend's shootings were on the South Side, clustered in the Englewood, Roseland, Gresham and West Pullman neighborhoods that rank among the most violent in the city.
The victims ranged from the 14-year-boy shot by police in the Old Irving Park neighborhood to a 66-year-old woman grazed in the head as she walked up the steps of her porch on the Far South Side. Most victims were in their late teens and 20s.
Each night of the long holiday weekend, at least a dozen people were shot in the greatest burst of gun violence Chicago has seen this year.
• From Thursday night into Friday, three people were killed and 10 others wounded. An attack outside a West Englewood salon left two men dead and an East Garfield Park shooting took the life of a 21-year-old woman.
• From Friday afternoon into Saturday, 20 people were shot, one fatally. The man who died had been flashing gang signs in a parking lot in the Clearing neighborhood when someone told him to stop. When the man didn’t, he was shot, police said.
• From Saturday night into Sunday morning, four people were killed and another 10 wounded.
• The bloodiest stretch of the weekend was a 13-hour period between 2:30 p.m. Sunday and 3:30 a.m. Monday when four people were killed and at least another 26 wounded, many of them in critical condition. And the most chaotic scene was in South Chicago, where three people were wounded during a running gun battle.
The shooting started around 11:20 p.m. Sunday when someone opened fire at two people who just left a store on Exchange Avenue south of 80th Street. A 25-year-old man was taken in critical condition to Northwestern Memorial Hospital and a 19-year-old woman was stabilized at Advocate Christ Medical Center.
While the man was firing, two people on the street shot at him and a chase ensued, with the three exchanging gunfire through a vacant lot west toward Escanaba Avenue, police and neighbors said.
The three didn't hit each other but a 48-year-old man was caught in the crossfire while sitting on the porch. He was wounded in the ankle and taken to Jackson Park Hospital.
The shooting kicked off an hour of occasional chaos as responding officers kept hearing gunfire, first the exchange between the three, then an apparently unrelated volley of shots a few blocks west on Muskegon Avenue where police found shell casings on a porch.
A 10-1 -- a call for an officer in distress -- was broadcast across the city because the shots were so close to police.
Officers from across the South Side responded, including tactical teams who had been ordered to wear their uniforms instead of plainclothes for the holiday weekend.
Police were radioing about hearing gunfire all over the neighborhood, and a district lieutenant ordered a perimeter over a three-block-by-four-block area. No one was taken into custody.
As a helicopter circled overhead, someone shot up a house a few blocks south on Exchange Avenue, just outside the perimeter, around midnight. The gunfire was called over the police radio before any 911 calls were received, and officers ran down the street toward where the gunfire came from.
The house that was hit by gunfire, in the 8400 block of South Exchange, was near where a teen had been shot earlier in the day and police had responded to a call of a gang disturbance. A group of gang members had been hanging out outside and someone wanted them removed, police said.
About half an hour later, the neighborhood had finally quieted down. "Release the perimeter," the lieutenant ordered, though he asked that patrol cars keep a watch on the four crime scenes.
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Post by: MWHistorian
Good thing they have the strictest gun control there or those murders ....oh....wait. That's right. Gun control doesn't work.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Indeed. Hence why Texas and Florida have the second and third highest gun-murder rates in the Country respectively while Illinois has the 8th highest rate.
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Post by: Jihadin
Good thing none of the shooters were professionals
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Post by: Frazzled
 BlaxicanX wrote:Indeed. Hence why Texas and Florida have the second and third highest gun-murder rates in the Country respectively while Illinois has the 8th highest rate.
I particularly like the part where SWAT guys are just wandering the neighborhood. Yowsa thats Black Helicopter / Robocop (old school only please) time. If you're going to compare apples to apples you'd have to compare cities, not states. Texas and Florida are high because we actually hit what we aim at. Practice people Practice! 2013 murder rate Houston 201 Chicago 415 http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303640604579294961439965026 http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/01/the-year-in-murder-2013-marks-a-historic-low-for-many-cities.html
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Indeed. The snipe at gun laws was just lulzy and worthy of parody.
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Post by: Frazzled
BlaxicanX wrote:Indeed. The snipe at gun laws was just lulzy and worthy of parody.
We did a drill at a match a month ago where we had to take out three targets "gangsta" style (one handed, pistol on its side). It was...unique. 
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Post by: dereksatkinson
BlaxicanX wrote:Indeed. Hence why Texas and Florida have the second and third highest gun-murder rates in the Country respectively while Illinois has the 8th highest rate.
That is a misrepresentation. Texas has the 2nd most murders but it's actually middle of the pack when it comes to their murder rate per 100k individuals. Not to mention that Texas has 35.9% gun ownership which is the 21st lowest ownership rate in the USA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state
Oh.. and i'm sure drug smuggling might influence those numbers a bit... http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/DRRC.PDF
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Post by: Jihadin
 Frazzled wrote: BlaxicanX wrote:Indeed. The snipe at gun laws was just lulzy and worthy of parody.
We did a drill at a match a month ago where we had to take out three targets "gangsta" style (one handed, pistol on its side). It was...unique.
I crushed a Specialist for pulling that stupid crap in Afghanistan
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Post by: Frazzled
 Jihadin wrote: Frazzled wrote: BlaxicanX wrote:Indeed. The snipe at gun laws was just lulzy and worthy of parody.
We did a drill at a match a month ago where we had to take out three targets "gangsta" style (one handed, pistol on its side). It was...unique.
I crushed a Specialist for pulling that stupid crap in Afghanistan
Hey you never know. There was one guy who was considerably more accurate that way. We theorized it was because something was wrong with him in the head. 
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Post by: Dreadclaw69
Is this reminding anyone of Detroit in the 80's/90's?
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Post by: -Shrike-
Wow... And people actually want to live there? 
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Post by: Frazzled
Its the pizza.
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Post by: Dreadclaw69
Crazy isn't it 
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Post by: whembly
It's actually a cool town... as a St. Louisian, it's fun to root against them at Wrigley field and at Blues vs 'Hawks game.
It's just that there are areas you just shouldn't visit.
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Post by: -Shrike-
 whembly wrote:
It's actually a cool town... as a St. Louisian, it's fun to root against them at Wrigley field and at Blues vs 'Hawks game.
It's just that there are areas you just shouldn't visit.
Yeah, there are a few of those areas near me, but we don't have close to a hundred people being shot in a few days. That's just insane.
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Post by: Jihadin
Should not have used a Chicago base advertising agency for Tombstone Pizza there 
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Post by: Jimsolo
They had some pretty neat fireworks.
I was actually IN Chicago this weekend for a funeral. We heard gunshots at one point, but it wasn't like it was a huge deal or anything. (I'm from Southern Illinois, so gunshots don't really give me the willies.)
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Post by: d-usa
If this is going to be a sensible debate about the socioeconomic factors influencing the crime rate of Chicago and the influence of factors such as organized crime, trafficking, gang violence and corruption compared to other cities in the US it might be a good thread.
If it's just another gun thread couldn't it just go in one of the other ones we already have?
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Post by: ironicsilence
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Post by: Desubot
"including two boys 14 and 16 who were killed when they allegedly refused to drop their guns. "
Wat?
Edit: All of the ages make me sad.
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Post by: Dreadclaw69
 d-usa wrote:If this is going to be a sensible debate about the socioeconomic factors influencing the crime rate of Chicago and the influence of factors such as organized crime, trafficking, gang violence and corruption compared to other cities in the US it might be a good thread.
If it's just another gun thread couldn't it just go in one of the other ones we already have?
Why don't you start us off then?
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Post by: d-usa
All the"guns are bad" and "gun control are bad" posts beat me to the punch already.
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Post by: whembly
d-usa wrote:If this is going to be a sensible debate about the socioeconomic factors influencing the crime rate of Chicago and the influence of factors such as organized crime, trafficking, gang violence and corruption compared to other cities in the US it might be a good thread.
If it's just another gun thread couldn't it just go in one of the other ones we already have?
Eh... how's this?
UW study: Shooting victims more likely to die by gun in future
A University of Washington study finds that hospital patients with gunshot wounds are much more likely than other patients to die from gun violence or commit crimes in the future
People hospitalized with a firearm injury are 30 times more likely to return to the hospital with another firearm injury than people hospitalized for other reasons. And they’re 11 times more likely to die from gun violence within the next five years, according to a study commissioned by the Seattle City Council.
Researchers at the Harborview Injury Prevention and Research Center at the University of Washington studied 20,000 patients hospitalized in King County and 77,000 hospitalized in all of Washington state in 2006 and 2007. They went back five years and forward five years, examining patients’ previous arrest and hospitalization histories.
Dr. Frederick Rivara, lead author and professor of pediatrics at the University of Washington, said that the study’s finding of a correlation isn’t that surprising, but that the rates are dramatic.
“Those people are really at high risk,” he said.
The study highlighted a strong correlation between firearm-related hospitalizations and poor outcomes after being discharged, including repeated hospitalization, commission of crime and death. A quarter of those hospitalized for a firearm-related injury were arrested for firearm-related crime within the next five years.
Researchers found that those hospitalized with a gun-related injury who had a prior arrest for gun-related or violent crime were 43 times more likely to be slain within the next five years than those without either.
The study also looked at patients’ prior alcohol or drug abuse as well as prior psychiatric history. Those who were hospitalized with a gun-related injury who had prior arrests for firearms or violence were 13 times more likely to be arrested over the next five years, while those with prior psychiatric history were only twice as likely to be arrested.
Council President Tim Burgess led the council to authorize $153,000 for the study last June in light of the 2012 Sandy Hook school shooting in Connecticut. Seattle is the first American city to pioneer research of the effects of gun violence, since the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention cannot receive federal funds for a national study after the National Rifle Association successfully lobbied against such funding in 1996.
The findings will be presented to the City Council at 9:30 a.m. Monday.
“It was important for the city to step up and fund this research so we could get the facts on gun violence and in our community,” Burgess said.
Beyond gun laws, Burgess has an idea to provide patients with firearm-related injuries with similar treatment methods to those with alcohol abuse: an intervention strategy where patients could meet with physicians, social workers and psychologists before being discharged.
“We’re headed in the right direction in upstream interventions,” he said.
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Post by: Dreadclaw69
d-usa wrote:All the"guns are bad" and "gun control are bad" posts beat me to the punch already.
We're still on page 1. I'm game for a discussion along the lines you proposed.
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Post by: Jihadin
Does get stupid when people add in "why" they cannot own nukes, IED's, fully operational cannons, combat ready tanks, crew serve weapons, Hellfire missiles, mortar tubes, and free health care etc etc etc etc
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Post by: Dreadclaw69
Jihadin wrote:Does get stupid when people add in "why" they cannot own nukes, IED's, fully operational cannons, combat ready tanks, crew serve weapons, Hellfire missiles, mortar tubes, and free health care etc etc etc etc
I'd be interested in meeting the person who has;
- the facilities to safely and securely store such a device
- has the means to maintain such a device (including the hire of skilled labour)
- has the property to detonate such a device on without impacting neighboring properties
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Post by: purplefood
I assume one detonates a nuke with the express intention of damaging neighbouring properties...
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Post by: MrDwhitey
Only one or two of them though.
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Post by: Jihadin
 purplefood wrote:I assume one detonates a nuke with the express intention of damaging neighbouring properties...
Town, city, county, district, state, country to name a few 
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Post by: Dreadclaw69
purplefood wrote:I assume one detonates a nuke with the express intention of damaging neighbouring properties...
And herein lies the problem. You cannot detonate a nuclear device without serious global ramifications
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
There's the Blackhawks, and I guess hope for the Bulls and Cubs... plus, Da Bears
Beyond that... no fething clue. I enjoy where I live.... it's close enough that I can drive into the "big city" (Seattle) but not so close that I'm not neck deep in it.
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Post by: Jihadin
 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
There's the Blackhawks, and I guess hope for the Bulls and Cubs... plus, Da Bears
Beyond that... no fething clue. I enjoy where I live.... it's close enough that I can drive into the "big city" (Seattle) but not so close that I'm not neck deep in it.
About the Blackhawk thing. Did the hockey team get permission to use his name? 501st has permission from Geronimo family to use his name.
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Post by: Bullockist
I'm a big proponent of tanks as a self defence weapon. Just park your tank in your front yard , local children get to play on it thereby reducing your chances of a random shooting whilst having people near your house all day reducing the amount of possible home invasions.
You can launch your own fireworks on holidays and if a neighbour has a problem you can drive over the top of their car whilst yelling "GET OFF MY LAWN".
Nothing also says "stay away, military nut here " like having a tank in your front yard.
Also they look cool.
You know it makes sense.
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Post by: Dreadclaw69
Jihadin wrote:About the Blackhawk thing. Did the hockey team get permission to use his name? 501st has permission from Geronimo family to use his name.
Lawsuit gets filed Thursday
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Post by: Chongara
I too like to frame human suffering with sarcastic indifference. It highlights what a wonderful person I am.
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Post by: Frazzled
Jihadin wrote:
Should not have used a Chicago base advertising agency for Tombstone Pizza there
Godfather's Pizza was Da Bomb! Automatically Appended Next Post: Wait wait wait...
Are you saying I can't have a thermonuclear device?
(relocks the closet marked "open in case of Zombies or Medicine Quinn Medicine Woman remake")
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Post by: Jihadin
Bullockist wrote:
I'm a big proponent of tanks as a self defence weapon. Just park your tank in your front yard , local children get to play on it thereby reducing your chances of a random shooting whilst having people near your house all day reducing the amount of possible home invasions.
You can launch your own fireworks on holidays and if a neighbour has a problem you can drive over the top of their car whilst yelling "GET OFF MY LAWN".
Nothing also says "stay away, military nut here " like having a tank in your front yard.
Also they look cool.
You know it makes sense.
About that..
WASHINGTON, D.C. — Following a second mass shooting at Fort Hood, at least one lawmaker thinks a bill currently under consideration will ensure the safety of American communities by requiring the estimated 2.6 million unstable veterans who served in Iraq or Afghanistan to tell their neighbors of their combat service.
The Fortify & Unite Communities to Keep Veterans’ External Threats Secure Act (H.R. 1874) which was introduced on Tuesday, would require military veterans to register with the Department of Homeland Security and periodically “check-in” with a case officer, in addition to going door-to-door in their neighborhood to notify people nearby that they are a powder keg of post traumatic stress, alcoholism, murder, and hate just waiting to blow.
“We really feel that we can drastically minimize the damage to some communities, especially those in troubled ‘PTSD hotspots‘ that have become a haven for these psychopathic troops,” said Rep. Jim Moran (D-Va.), who sponsored the legislation. “We are so thankful for their service, and now they can continue to serve on veterans probation.”
For the safety of communities, the FCC would also direct cable providers to block access to violent war content popular among veterans, to include The Military Channel and Lifetime. Further, a preliminary letter details instructions sent to providers to censor movies such as “Black Hawk Down” and “Saving Private Ryan” so as “not to place a veteran into a potentially violent mental state and protect the community by not ‘poking the bear.’”
The bill is up for vote in the House Veterans Affairs Committee next Thursday where watchers say it’s likely to pass before going to the floor for a full vote. However, there’s been some controversy surrounding one part of the bill barring veterans from living within 1,000 feet of bars, gun ranges, or liquor stores, as critics claim this would be unfair to local businesses.
Lawmakers are still debating a requirement that veterans need approval before moving to a new community they would eventually terrorize. An amendment requiring case officers to place crazed veterans in a locked safe room for the 24 hours of Independence Day and New Years Eve had already passed
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Post by: Bullockist
errr. Jihadin that has to be from that military satire site isn't it? Isn't it?
I can see that integration of vets into communities will be easier when they have to walk up to people and tell them they have PTSD. Nothing like making people unsure of vets to reduce vets alienation (or stigma)in the community.
That's just madness. I mean, have you ever met someone with a mental illness who mentions it within 5 minutes of meeting you? It doesn't tend to reassure (illogical though that inherent stigma is)
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Post by: BlaxicanX
It's almost as poor a representation as using some killings from a single to comment on gun-control laws is.
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Post by: sebster
Detroit was a single industry city, and that industry no longer had economic benefits to be centred in a single city. This led to economic decline, then to poverty, and then to crime, each one feeding off the others in a feedback loop. Chicago is a central transport hub in US industry and agriculture, and this means it is also a major transport hub for the distribution of drugs. That drug trade drives the violence, but that violence doesn't increase the other factors, so there's no feedback loop and the result is nothing at all like Detroit.  Dreadclaw69 wrote:I'd be interested in meeting the person who has; - the facilities to safely and securely store such a device - has the means to maintain such a device (including the hire of skilled labour) - has the property to detonate such a device on without impacting neighboring properties
I too would like to meet Warren Buffet but if I did manage to meet the man I don't think I'd spend much time talking about nuclear weapons and whether or not he's planned to purchase and maintain one.
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Post by: kronk
Ensis Ferrae wrote: There's the Blackhawks, and I guess hope for the Bulls and Cubs... plus, Da Bears Beyond that... no fething clue. I enjoy where I live.... it's close enough that I can drive into the "big city" (Seattle) but not so close that I'm not neck deep in it.
I moved here because that's where my company's HQ and R&D facilities are located when I got promoted. I love the job, but it sucks here. I'd rather be back in Houston, TX. But Chicago does have: 
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Post by: Dreadclaw69
 sebster wrote:Chicago is a central transport hub in US industry and agriculture, and this means it is also a major transport hub for the distribution of drugs. That drug trade drives the violence, but that violence doesn't increase the other factors, so there's no feedback loop and the result is nothing at all like Detroit.
Then perhaps we should focus our efforts on combating violence driven by drugs and gangs
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Post by: ironicsilence
Dreadclaw69 wrote: sebster wrote:Chicago is a central transport hub in US industry and agriculture, and this means it is also a major transport hub for the distribution of drugs. That drug trade drives the violence, but that violence doesn't increase the other factors, so there's no feedback loop and the result is nothing at all like Detroit.
Then perhaps we should focus our efforts on combating violence driven by drugs and gangs
thats actually part of what has gotten Chicago in our current pickle. One of the big things former mayor Daily did was crack down hard on the gangs, he took the cut off the snakes head approach and was actually really successful in locking up a lot of gang leaders, but just assumed that with the leaders taken out the gangs would fall apart...which is the opposite of what happened, you basically got a bunch of low level dumb thugs climbing up the ranks and taking leadership positions and a dumb gun carrying thug isnt very good at running a gang
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Post by: Easy E
So, what is the best policing strategy to deal the the problem? Is it better to roll-up the minions or the overlords?
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Post by: ironicsilence
 Easy E wrote:So, what is the best policing strategy to deal the the problem? Is it better to roll-up the minions or the overlords?
I wish i had the answer, all I know is Chicago really needs to go on the offensive because they are loosing badly, theres a reason the chicago media is always bringing up the Nuclear option in the war on Gangs, which is deploying the National Guard. As a combat veteran from the National Guard I cant express enough how much of a bad idea that is but I think it helps to put into perspective just how ineffective the Chicago government has been that some people are calling for the Military to help. I think they need to appeal to the federal government for help, get the FBI, the ATF, homeland security all pulled in and start launching some serious raids. Start locking up the bad guys, start seizing all the illegal guns. I dont want to pull in the gun control debate here but Mayor Rahm's favorite thing to do is blame Chicago/IL's "lax" gun laws for the problem because it makes for a good political talking point and gives an excuse for his inability to stop the problem. I'm not smart enough to understand how stricter gun laws will prevent people who dont follow the laws from getting guns and killing each other.
Sadly in chicago anyways theres always an excuse for nothing being able to solve the problem, whether its the gun laws, or resourcing, or the already over crowded IL jails, or the lack of rehab in our prison systems. Rahm needs to stop pointing the figure at why he cant stop the violence and just start doing something about it
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Post by: Ouze
That looks like a nice casserole.
I prefer pizza, myself.
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Post by: d-usa
 ironicsilence wrote: Dreadclaw69 wrote: sebster wrote:Chicago is a central transport hub in US industry and agriculture, and this means it is also a major transport hub for the distribution of drugs. That drug trade drives the violence, but that violence doesn't increase the other factors, so there's no feedback loop and the result is nothing at all like Detroit.
Then perhaps we should focus our efforts on combating violence driven by drugs and gangs
thats actually part of what has gotten Chicago in our current pickle. One of the big things former mayor Daily did was crack down hard on the gangs, he took the cut off the snakes head approach and was actually really successful in locking up a lot of gang leaders, but just assumed that with the leaders taken out the gangs would fall apart...which is the opposite of what happened, you basically got a bunch of low level dumb thugs climbing up the ranks and taking leadership positions and a dumb gun carrying thug isnt very good at running a gang
Makes you end up wondering it 5 big successful gangs are better than 10 smaller gangs.
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Post by: Dreadclaw69
ironicsilence wrote:thats actually part of what has gotten Chicago in our current pickle. One of the big things former mayor Daily did was crack down hard on the gangs, he took the cut off the snakes head approach and was actually really successful in locking up a lot of gang leaders, but just assumed that with the leaders taken out the gangs would fall apart...which is the opposite of what happened, you basically got a bunch of low level dumb thugs climbing up the ranks and taking leadership positions and a dumb gun carrying thug isnt very good at running a gang
Nature abhors a vacuum. With a gang's leader gone there was always the risk that there would be more violence as people wanted to climb the ranks, as old grudges were settled, or gangs fragmented and fought for territory. Pressure should have been kept on the gangs.
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Post by: ironicsilence
Honestly given chicago's reputation for political corruption at this point I'd support some sort of back ally deal with the gangs, layoff turning the city into a warzone in exchange for the police "looking the other way" from time to time
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Post by: Easy E
We basically need a Sunni Awakening with the street gangs? I.e. pay them off to stop killing people?
Interesting.
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Post by: Dreadclaw69
Easy E wrote:We basically need a Sunni Awakening with the street gangs? I.e. pay them off to stop killing people?
Interesting.
Or we stop the ridiculous War on Drugs that is helping fuel the problem
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Post by: Jihadin
Stop the war on drugs and use the funds to help seal the southern border being its almost coming across unhindered with the illegal immigration crisis drawing majority of CBP
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Post by: sarpedons-right-hand
Whoa, after reading all this I'm glad my wife turned down a job in Chicago a few weeks ago....
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Post by: Jihadin
I hate going through Chicago. Same as Milwaukee. The Chicago Police Chief says the fault is proliferation of weapons in Chicago. From what I'm hearing they do not enforce the current gun laws in Chicago.
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Post by: sarpedons-right-hand
Jihadin wrote:I hate going through Chicago. Same as Milwaukee. The Chicago Police Chief says the fault is proliferation of weapons in Chicago. From what I'm hearing they do not enforce the current gun laws in Chicago.
So, I have to wonder, why the heck not enforce them? That's the job of the police surely...
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Post by: Jihadin
Case load. Basically the justice system in Chicago is overwhelmed.
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Post by: sarpedons-right-hand
So it appears that another city is going down the red tape highway...
Seems a real shame. Although it could have been just one weekend of absolute craziness. Couldn't it?
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Post by: ironicsilence
 sarpedons-right-hand wrote:So it appears that another city is going down the red tape highway...
Seems a real shame. Although it could have been just one weekend of absolute craziness. Couldn't it?
its actually a pretty common, though big numbers like this are generally reserved for holidays
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Post by: Dreadclaw69
Jihadin wrote:I hate going through Chicago. Same as Milwaukee. The Chicago Police Chief says the fault is proliferation of weapons in Chicago. From what I'm hearing they do not enforce the current gun laws in Chicago.
You know what solves that? More gun laws
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
 d-usa wrote:
Makes you end up wondering it 5 big successful gangs are better than 10 smaller gangs.
Well, we know Chicago "worked" best in the 20s and 30s with only 2 big successful gangs... we should go that route
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Post by: ironicsilence
This is an interesting story, specifically this "There's a greater sanction for the gang members to lose that firearm from their gang than there is to go to jail,"
http://abcnews.go.com/US/chicagos-holiday-toll-82-shootings-14-deaths/story?id=24452637
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Post by: Eilif
Wow bit of spew about my home here and there.
A few things based on questions and comments in this topic:
Gun Laws:
They are enforced here. Lots are confiscated, and lots of folks go away for a long time, but enforcing local gun laws doesn't really stop the flow of guns, especially from places with more lax statutes. Likewise, locking folks up doesn't stop crime if prisons don't teach any usable skills and if folks leaving prison don't have enough viable paths for returning to society.
Legal Gun Ownership.
Some folks point to the low rates (until recently it was extremely restrictive) having a causal relationship to high crime, but that's a pretty difficult case to make. I'm generally in favor of more citizen gun ownership but also of reasonable gun control laws (universal background checks, limits on number and types of firearms, funding for ATF to collate and make available their gun crime information/stats).
Why so violent?
Oh man where to start. My experience has been that folks on the outside tend to point to one or two thigns that reflects their particular slant (Left, Right, LIberal, Conservative, Progressive, Libertarian, etc.) to explain the violence of the inner city. The truth is that they are almost all partially correct but none of them tells the whole story. Destruction of the family, cycles of poverty, a legal system that is slanted against the poor and people of color, lack of jobs, disinvestment, neglect by city government, poor quality schools, it's all part of the picture.
So, why live here?
Chicago is a beautiful city with amazing cultural, culinary and architectural resources. I love it here, and I live smack in the middle of one of the communities with the highest rates of incarceration and gun violence. Not to say that innocents don't get caught up in the crossfire, but most folks in the city just live out their lives. Despite what pop culture and the media portray, we don't live every second of our lives in fear. We are aware, we take precautions, but mostly we just live. I grew up in the affluent suburbs and had family in the country so I know thed differences. I have the means to go elsewhere, yet this is where I've chosen to live and raise my children.
Living "intentionally" in the hood, is not for everyone, but there's lots of other reasons that I love it here. I love the incredible array of cultures that Chicago holds, I love the many opportunities it has for experiencing the arts, music, the museums, etc. I like neighborhoods where people actually know their neighbors, I like no longer living in a place where a black or brown face is an anomaly. I LOVE the food. There aren't many places where I can sample Korean, Vietnamese, Persian, Pakistani, Ethiopian, Indian etc, etc all within a few miles of each other. I like the accessibility of public transport, shopping, parks, etc. These aren't all exclusive to Chicago, but you won't find the same combination anywhere else.
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Post by: whembly
 Ouze wrote:
That looks like a nice casserole.
I prefer pizza, myself.
Better... but, I'm a fan of " St. Louis' style" thin crust pizza:
It's secret is provel cheese:
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Post by: Dreadclaw69
I'm on a low carb diet ahead of our vacation. You have no idea just know much I want pizza now
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Post by: Jihadin
Spurge
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Post by: Dreadclaw69
Catered meetings yesterday so my diet was screwed then in a big way but I still dropped weight. The food was good, but it wasn't pizza
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Post by: sebster
Dreadclaw69 wrote:Then perhaps we should focus our efforts on combating violence driven by drugs and gangs
Absolutely, though I think you'll agree that our inability to curb drug use and drug violence hasn't been through a lack of effort and resources, but more the complexity of the issue. We can't just decide to tackle that and expect any results better than what we've already achieved.
And of course, there's also the point that you can do more than one thing at any given time. You can tackle drugs while also addressing other issues. Automatically Appended Next Post: ironicsilence wrote:thats actually part of what has gotten Chicago in our current pickle. One of the big things former mayor Daily did was crack down hard on the gangs, he took the cut off the snakes head approach and was actually really successful in locking up a lot of gang leaders, but just assumed that with the leaders taken out the gangs would fall apart...which is the opposite of what happened, you basically got a bunch of low level dumb thugs climbing up the ranks and taking leadership positions and a dumb gun carrying thug isnt very good at running a gang
Yeah, it seems that the 'cut off the head' strategy just causes instability in the system, which leads to more violence as other hoodlums look to press their claim for the now vacant top dog position.
And if you just aim for cleaning up the streets you end up with a churn of low level hoodlums serving short 'intent to sell' sentences, getting out and getting caught, over and over again. The stress on the system means that approach never lasts for long either.
Probably the only methods that can actually work are to stop supply and to stop demand - stop the drugs getting made and brought in to the country, and stop people wanting them. I don't think anyone's figured out how to make either of those things happen, though.
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Post by: Bromsy
There's always
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Post by: Jihadin
Penal battalion. Have to much free time on their hand in prison. Make them work. Clear mine fields, land reclaimation in Australia, ballistic test results, port a potty cleaning, and etc etc
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Post by: paulson games
The stuffed pizzas from Giordano's are worth taking a bullet for, that's why people stay in this hell hole known as Illinois. Now if we could only teach the gangbangers to shoot better we could easily triple our current homicide rate and put it our title well out of reach of other cities, despite our masses of untrained shooters who can't hit anything we're able keep our murder rate high through an award winning team spirit. A major part of the problem is that they've torn down all the projects and relocated the residents to other areas, the idea was that they'd break up the gangs, however it's simply caused a new batch of issues where the gangs didn't disperse as hoped but have spread out into a wider area and are coming into contact with new gangs and contesting more territory. When the projects were up you didn't want to be anywhere near them and if you kept clear by several blocks you weren't as likely to run into gang members, now they are dispersed not only through the south side, but they've also expanded significantly to the west due to the relocation effort and it's caused gang violence to start popping up in new neighborhoods that were much less impact by violence in previous decades. Sort of like a hive of angry bees, it used to be very visible and largely avoidable, but the city came and smashed it apart so the bees have now split into lots of smaller colonies but there's just as many or more members are around now and they have to carve out new territory and defend it more aggressively then before. The projects were like fortresses and the gangs that controlled them had them on lock down, there were very few ways for other gangs much less the police to gain access, so they could defend their turf without as much bloodshed as there is when defending open streets. Another issue the city is finding is that when the crime was largely centralized it could concentrate much of it's efforts into a handful of districts and see far more effective results for the man hours and budget, now with it spreading out into multiple neighborhoods it means more districts are being over taxed on resources and it's much harder to address then when it was more centralized. The numbers may be down a bit from pervious years but as the next generation of gang members comes of age we're going to have a much bigger problem, with a wider area and population base they are in contact with, in time it will cause the gangs to further increase in size and have more run ins with previously quieter areas.
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Post by: MrDwhitey
As it's probably the most important thing being discussed here, I'm a fan of thin crust over deep-pan myself.
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Post by: LordofHats
 MrDwhitey wrote:As it's probably the most important thing being discussed here, I'm a fan of thin crust over deep-pan myself.
Heresy. The Inquisition will hear of this sir!
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Post by: Grey Templar
New York Pizza is the best.
I declare Exterminatus upon Chicago and their Daemonic Deep Dishes!
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Post by: paulson games
On the pizza front, all your thin crusts are simply dwarfed by the Chicago stuffed. We'd drop one of our deep dishes on top of the thin crust and people wouldn't even notice as it'd simple ooze all around it until it'd be bonded with it, if anyone did notice they'd be like "man that was awesome but the bottom layer sucked'.
I do find a good thin crust from a fire baked oven incredibly good, had some in NY and also St Loius which are very close runners up IMO. Had a fire baked pizza at Rock Bottom down in Indy while at Gen Con that was incredibly good. There's a Rock Bottom here in IL but it's not even close, oddly I found the same with the Weber Grill. Amazing down in Indy but in IL it was pretty tame.
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Post by: Jihadin
You all are a freaking trip. I hate store, chain, and/or restaurant pizza. I got so burned out eating Domino's, Papa John, DiGiornio, Red Baron, Pizza Hut, Tombstone pizza's when I was on flight status. I do love home made pizza I make
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Post by: Frazzled
 paulson games wrote:On the pizza front, all your thin crusts are simply dwarfed by the Chicago stuffed. We'd drop one of our deep dishes on top of the thin crust and people wouldn't even notice as it'd simple ooze all around it until it'd be bonded with it, if anyone did notice they'd be like "man that was awesome but the bottom layer sucked'.
I do find a good thin crust from a fire baked oven incredibly good, had some in NY and also St Loius which are very close runners up IMO. Had a fire baked pizza at Rock Bottom down in Indy while at Gen Con that was incredibly good. There's a Rock Bottom here in IL but it's not even close, oddly I found the same with the Weber Grill. Amazing down in Indy but in IL it was pretty tame.
I don't think Chicago style pizza is really pizza, more incredibly awesome American style Lasanga constrained by pie dough. It really fits for the home of Capone - food to excess!
My boy is temporarily working for a pizza chain during the summer. One advantage is he can make his own pizza and bring it home. Its absolutely packed with toppings. Me likey.
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Post by: Eilif
sebster wrote:
ironicsilence wrote:thats actually part of what has gotten Chicago in our current pickle. One of the big things former mayor Daily did was crack down hard on the gangs, he took the cut off the snakes head approach and was actually really successful in locking up a lot of gang leaders, but just assumed that with the leaders taken out the gangs would fall apart...which is the opposite of what happened, you basically got a bunch of low level dumb thugs climbing up the ranks and taking leadership positions and a dumb gun carrying thug isnt very good at running a gang
Yeah, it seems that the 'cut off the head' strategy just causes instability in the system, which leads to more violence as other hoodlums look to press their claim for the now vacant top dog position.
You guys are missing one very important point. Chicago overall crime and murder rate is actually down compared to the heydays of the big gangs (the 90's saw our highest murder rates). This year has seen a spike compared to recent years, but the overall trend is actually toward less crime. Anyone looking for the good-old-days of the big gangs should take a look at the actual stats. There were lower murder rates in the 60's (Chicago had a much bigger population then), but there was also more murder. Here's a graph of murder rates.
Murder rates since the graph above have seesawed between 15 and 18 per 100,000.
Not to say it's all roses and sweet-treats, but it really needs to be taken in context. Check out this chart in the link below and you'll see that we're on a downward trajectory; for nearly all crime.
http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Chicago-Illinois.html
paulson games wrote:On the pizza front, all your thin crusts are simply dwarfed by the Chicago stuffed. We'd drop one of our deep dishes on top of the thin crust and people wouldn't even notice as it'd simple ooze all around it until it'd be bonded with it, if anyone did notice they'd be like "man that was awesome but the bottom layer sucked'.
Agreed. Lou Malnati's is a Pizza in my book. From time to time I do enjoy those thin sauce-and-toppings-on-a-tostada that folks out east call "NY style" pizza, but when I want a real pizza pie, I'll take a Lou's Deep Dish Buttercrust. Keep your big apple, I want my big Pizza.
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Post by: Experiment 626
There is no true pizza beyond the mighty Canadian pizza... Pepperoni, sausage, bacon, back bacon and mushroom. Occasionally with a maple glaze to make it an all in one 'dinner+dessert' masterpiece! 
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Post by: kronk
I stand by my pizza selection. This Crust is OK, but pales in comparison to a Deep Dish from a good restaurant.
But surely we can all agree that it snows too much up here.
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Post by: Experiment 626
 kronk wrote:I stand by my pizza selection. This Crust is OK, but pales in comparison to a Deep Dish from a good restaurant.
But surely we can all agree that it snows too much up here.
NEVER! #Wearewinter
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Post by: gunslingerpro
Having sampled pizzas nationally in my travels, I have to say, the best I ever had was as a lad in New Hampshire.
It was soft and doughy, not too thick, with a sweet sauce that was perfectly tangy. It was like pizza on fried dough
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Post by: Scipio Africanus
 MWHistorian wrote:Good thing they have the strictest gun control there or those murders ....oh....wait. That's right. Gun control doesn't work.
Seems to work here in the kangaroo eating southlands, we had 188 gun-related deaths total in 2011. Striking that one city can pull almost ten percent of that count in a single day.
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
 Scipio Africanus wrote: MWHistorian wrote:Good thing they have the strictest gun control there or those murders ....oh....wait. That's right. Gun control doesn't work.
Seems to work here in the kangaroo eating southlands, we had 188 gun-related deaths total in 2011. Striking that one city can pull almost ten percent of that count in a single day.
See, you Aussies may have all but banned guns, but we've already banned Drop Bears, so it'd look completely different if we were comparing the stats for Death by Drop Bear
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Post by: Scipio Africanus
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Scipio Africanus wrote: MWHistorian wrote:Good thing they have the strictest gun control there or those murders ....oh....wait. That's right. Gun control doesn't work.
Seems to work here in the kangaroo eating southlands, we had 188 gun-related deaths total in 2011. Striking that one city can pull almost ten percent of that count in a single day.
See, you Aussies may have all but banned guns, but we've already banned Drop Bears, so it'd look completely different if we were comparing the stats for Death by Drop Bear
I have a drop bear as a pet. He sits in my front yards eucalyptus tree and drops down and murders unsuspecting door to door salesmen/fanatics.
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Post by: ironicsilence
Im personally glad this thread turned into a pizza debate as the gun control debates on this forum are getting stale
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
ironicsilence wrote:Im personally glad this thread turned into a pizza debate as the gun control debates on this forum are getting stale
Probably yet another case of Chicago "Losing it"
"when they lost the Great Pizza War, they turned to the only thing they had left.... gun violence.... This fall, at a theater near you, The Last Great Pizza Chef..... In 3-D"
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Post by: d-usa
ironicsilence wrote:Im personally glad this thread turned into a pizza debate as the gun control debates on this forum are getting stale
People are getting pretty crusty about the gun thing...
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Post by: Jihadin
New pizza. Chicago Losing It
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Post by: FabricatorGeneralMike
Frazzled wrote: Jihadin wrote:
Should not have used a Chicago base advertising agency for Tombstone Pizza there
Godfather's Pizza was Da Bomb!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait wait wait...
Are you saying I can't have a thermonuclear device?
(relocks the closet marked "open in case of Zombies or Medicine Quinn Medicine Woman remake")
So....you mean I can't own a tactical thermonuclear device in Texas?.... and I thought you where cool in Texas. Scratch Texas off the list...
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Post by: d-usa
 FabricatorGeneralMike wrote: Frazzled wrote: Jihadin wrote:
Should not have used a Chicago base advertising agency for Tombstone Pizza there
Godfather's Pizza was Da Bomb!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait wait wait...
Are you saying I can't have a thermonuclear device?
(relocks the closet marked "open in case of Zombies or Medicine Quinn Medicine Woman remake")
So....you mean I can't own a tactical thermonuclear device in Texas?.... and I thought you where cool in Texas. Scratch Texas off the list...
Texas IS a thermonuclear device!
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Post by: FabricatorGeneralMike
d-usa wrote: FabricatorGeneralMike wrote: Frazzled wrote: Jihadin wrote:
Should not have used a Chicago base advertising agency for Tombstone Pizza there
Godfather's Pizza was Da Bomb!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait wait wait...
Are you saying I can't have a thermonuclear device?
(relocks the closet marked "open in case of Zombies or Medicine Quinn Medicine Woman remake")
So....you mean I can't own a tactical thermonuclear device in Texas?.... and I thought you where cool in Texas. Scratch Texas off the list...
Texas IS a thermonuclear device!
touche
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Post by: Jihadin
FabricatorGeneralMike wrote: d-usa wrote: FabricatorGeneralMike wrote: Frazzled wrote: Jihadin wrote:
Should not have used a Chicago base advertising agency for Tombstone Pizza there
Godfather's Pizza was Da Bomb!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait wait wait...
Are you saying I can't have a thermonuclear device?
(relocks the closet marked "open in case of Zombies or Medicine Quinn Medicine Woman remake")
So....you mean I can't own a tactical thermonuclear device in Texas?.... and I thought you where cool in Texas. Scratch Texas off the list...
Texas IS a thermonuclear device!
touche
Actually. There's the WMD version of a nuke. Depending on what type of hot sauce its a Nuke going down the esophagus. That eventually is another nuke going off coming out.
Was in San Antonio getting trained as a OR Tech and was introduced to Ghost Pepper. I never sober up so fast in my life....
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Post by: Kelly502
Jihadin wrote:Does get stupid when people add in "why" they cannot own nukes, IED's, fully operational cannons, combat ready tanks, crew serve weapons, Hellfire missiles, mortar tubes, and free health care etc etc etc etc
I do own nukes, I'm an American tax payer...
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Post by: kronk
As a former native of Houston, TX and Shreveport, LA, I can safely say that Chicago Deep Dish pizza is kick ass.
PM me if you are in the region, Jihadin. It's on me, fether!
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Post by: Frazzled
 Ensis Ferrae wrote: ironicsilence wrote:Im personally glad this thread turned into a pizza debate as the gun control debates on this forum are getting stale
Probably yet another case of Chicago "Losing it"
"when they lost the Great Pizza War, they turned to the only thing they had left.... gun violence.... This fall, at a theater near you, The Last Great Pizza Chef..... In 3-D"
Well I didn't have a Chicago style Saturday, but it had real cheese with Mamosa"s. Its important to be buzzed at 10.00AM before boarding a bus full sororiety chicks and bachelorette parties off to go boozing to wineries. Yea pizza!
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Post by: Ouze
22 shot, 2 died - in 12 hours. Friday night in Chicago, everyone.
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